Friday, September 28, 2012

Experts on sociopathy

The following were taken from an article on Dr. Robert Hare, psychopathy expert.

History of the term psychopath:
The condition itself has been recognized for centuries, wearing evocative labels such as "madness without delirium" and "moral insanity" until the late 1800s, when "psychopath" was coined by a German clinician. But the term (and its 1930s synonym, sociopath) had always been a sort of catch-all, widely and loosely applied to criminals who seemed violent and unstable.
Why we should care about psychopaths:
Psychopathy may prove to be as important a construct in this century as IQ was in the last (and just as susceptible to abuse), because, thanks to Hare, we now understand that the great majority of psychopaths are not violent criminals and never will be. Hundreds of thousands of psychopaths live and work and prey among us.
On their inability to respond to punishment or learn from negative experiences:
For his first paper, now a classic, Hare had his subjects watch a countdown timer. When it reached zero, they got a "harmless but painful" electric shock while an electrode taped to their fingers measured perspiration. Normal people would start sweating as the countdown proceeded, nervously anticipating the shock. Psychopaths didn't sweat. They didn't fear punishment--which, presumably, also holds true outside the laboratory.
On the sociopaths' lack of familiarity with emotional language:
Hare made another intriguing discovery by observing the hand gestures (called beats) people make while speaking. Research has shown that such gestures do more than add visual emphasis to our words (many people gesture while they're on the telephone, for example); it seems they actually help our brains find words. That's why the frequency of beats increases when someone is having trouble finding words, or is speaking a second language instead of his or her mother tongue. In a 1991 paper, Hare and his colleagues reported that psychopaths, especially when talking about things they should find emotional, such as their families, produce a higher frequency of beats than normal people. It's as if emotional language is a second language--a foreign language, in effect--to the psychopath.
On the potential for abuse:
"We'll let people out [of prison] on the basis of scores on this, and we'll put them in. And we'll take children who do badly on some version of this and segregate them or something. It wasn't designed to do any of these things. The problems that politicians are trying to solve are fundamentally more complicated than the one that Bob has solved."
On using the diagnosis to argue in favor of the death penalty:
"A psychological instrument and diagnosis should not be a determinant of whether someone gets the death sentence. That's more of an ethical and political decision."
On the sociopath's level of humanity:
Are these people qualitatively different from us? "I would think yes," says Hare. "Do they form a discrete taxon or category? I would say probably--the evidence is suggesting that. But does this mean that's because they have a broken motor? I don't know. It could be a natural variation." True saints, completely selfless individuals, are rare and unnatural too, he points out, but we don't talk about their being diseased.
On the possibility of a cure:
Asked if he thinks there will ever be a cure for psychopathy--a drug, an operation--Hare steps back and examines the question. "The psychopath will say 'A cure for what?' I don't feel comfortable calling it a disease. Much of their behaviour, even the neurobiological patterns we observe, could be because they're using different strategies to get around the world. These strategies don't have to involve faulty wiring, just different wiring."

252 comments:

  1. "The psychopath will say 'A cure for what?' I don't feel comfortable calling it a disease. Much of their behaviour, even the neurobiological patterns we observe, could be because they're using different strategies to get around the world. These strategies don't have to involve faulty wiring, just different wiring."

    i like that quote a lot. :)

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  2. "For his first paper, now a classic, Hare had his subjects watch a countdown timer. When it reached zero, they got a "harmless but painful" electric shock while an electrode taped to their fingers measured perspiration. Normal people would start sweating as the countdown proceeded, nervously anticipating the shock. Psychopaths didn't sweat. They didn't fear punishment--which, presumably, also holds true outside the laboratory."

    I found this section of the post particularly interesting because it would seem to support findings that sociopaths have smaller amygdalas then empaths.

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  3. Replies
    1. Take THAT Alter, ya slow ass cow!

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    2. Perchance it is you who puts the COW in coward, anonymouse- and that's just a waste of first. :P

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    3. Don't be such a spoilsport, Alter. No one like a sore loser. :)

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  4. Good job linking to an article that no longer exists.

    This almost feels like reading an antiquated pop-psychology rambling. Oh, wait! It is. A lot of the information here is outdated and generalized.

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  5. QUESTION FOR ALL THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE SOCIOPATHS:

    How do you deal with fake people both in personal and professional environments?

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    Replies
    1. I don't generally. I find them pesky.

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    2. I don't generally. I find them pesky.

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    3. I'm borderline .

      how does anyone deal with them? I work pttime as a receptionist and have to deal with them in an industry riddled with fake people. I HAVE to entertain them.. I can't escape.

      I've called an npd out. He didn't like it. It was dissatisfying. He said something along the lines of "you're mean".

      I roll my eyes out of view. They don't know they're fake, whatever. THey ARE pesky.

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  6. fReaKy sUbLimiNaL mESsAgesSeptember 28, 2012 at 1:48 AM

    ~~kkkKiiiiiillllll ttHHhemm~~

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  7. Go along with their bullshit and watch them puff themselves up around everyone, then politely explain why they are full of shit and let everyone see that they are idiots :)

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  8. I like these excerpts.

    Rant: I hate when Politicians see the results of a very complex psychological inquiry and then attempt to extrapolate their own conclusions on how to manage those results as if they had any actual expertise in the field.
    They see something and judge it based on their societally formed perceptions, their societal moral imperative, of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’.

    On segregating children that display psychopathic traits: Presumably this is for “the good of “”normal”” children” [double quotes = extra satire]. I doubt they’ve considered the consequences this has on the children they’re segregating.

    On the one hand you now have a child displaying psychopathic traits that has no way of learning how to interact and function in the real world. You also have “normal” children that do not have the experience learning to interact with someone that sees the world differently (keep in mind this can be beneficial but obviously it can also go very wrong). Just a thought.

    I doubt there have been many studies done on the consequences of isolating children displaying psychopathic tendencies and immersing them in a socialized environment. Common sense says that isolation will not benefit a child that already does not have a concept of social boundaries; it will only exacerbate the problem. This concept of social segregation to potentially protect, also breeds potential for magnified maliciousness that needs to be protected from. What do they plan to do with these segregated children when they grow up? Insulate them indefinitely?

    We see something different, and need to isolate it, because it’s not understood. Because there are detrimental examples, we judge them all under one qualifier of ‘bad’. I appreciate the acknowledgement that people can simply be different without the need to qualify it as ‘good’ or ‘bad’.

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    Replies
    1. Some parents put them in those wilderness problems and then to therapeutic boarding schools. Do they work?

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    2. ::laughs:: I'm sure they do something, but it's dependent on the child, their own personality. They might thrive, they might have not so great an experience.

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  9. Also the comic at the end is hysterical.

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  10. Good Morning Sociopath world!!!! Sorry Iam so late I had to go pick up my xanax prescription and see the doctor.....


    So how is everybody on this awesome friday? Good I hope? IAM DOING GREAT :)

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    Replies
    1. Shouldn't you be on your knees in some dirty alley sucking cock for drug money, you pathetic, worthless junkie?

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    2. LOL he wol prolly suck Extremity's cock if he had to!!!!

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    3. I dont have to do shit like that because I get my prescriptions for methadone and xanax from doctors and have enough money to pay them..... Ive never done anything like that for a drug, id rather detox cold turkey than bring myself down to that level.

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    4. Bullshit anon @ 8:56, but it seems like you are PROJECTING your own thoughts to me...... So really you wanna suck extremity off...... NASTY.......

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    5. Bull. You're just another worthless druggie an desperate loney loser. You will do whatever it takes for your high, and to get love Lol

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    6. have enough money to pay them..... Ive never done anything like that for a drug,

      Then you have some excitement in life to look forward to, Richard. That's your future - addiction, hopelessness, despair, degradation and humiliation. They'll cut you off eventually, Richard. You won't be coddled and protected by others forever and then it will be, "Richie luv u long time, suck suck" for dope. Is that why you're so desperate to find a woman, Richard? Hoping to find the next mommy substitute?

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    7. Most people on here are on legal and/or illegal drugs, so where do you get off judging Rich?

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    8. Not that this is any of your business, but my dead grandfather is a multi-millionaire, and he left the money to his wife, my grandma, who in turn will leave it to my mother when she bites the bust.........

      Ill never have to struggle for money, my grandfather has ran several successful businesses in new york and he wanted me to have a GREAT majority of the money...... It was and is in his will.......


      I will find me a job in the meantime, but I will be a millionaire before iam 40 years old guaranteed.........


      Sorry that you are so bitter than nobody cares enough about you to want you to have a better future and leave you a cut of his money because of that........

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    9. PS- I graduated College and I have my Associates Degree, Ill find a job, its just tough right now.........

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    10. Really Rich? How much more personal info are you going to give us to save face? Is that what you end up telling the women you desperately chase after, once they start emailing you? Lol IF you can ever get them to!!

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    11. What a load of crap. You already gave yourself away when you turned into a fat cry baby over giving up weed, and admitted you have nothing without your mum. I'll believe you have a degree when I see it you worm.

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    12. Multimillionaire? Who are you kidding? You live in an apartment in Boca Raton and have such bad anxiety you can't cope with staying home all day without being doped up. You can't even give up weed for 24 hours. HA HA HA You will never be anything more than a junkie. You will be lucky to live to the age of 40.

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    13. How much xanax did you have to take and weed did you have to smoke, to come here and face SW today? I bet more than usual. You are transparent. Did monica tell you if you stick it out and keep facing us we'll let you live? Lol that's so cute. But she can't shield you well enough to make it through the shit storm coming your way. You hsve no coping skills. You're weak.

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    14. You and I share in this opinion of Rich, a friend. His first post of the day was an admission of how he needed to get his pills before facing us.

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    15. That is pretty cool, Rich. When you come into your money, we can use it to buy Extremity to stay off out asses ~

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    16. Yes monica. Money will fix all of his problems. You are such a good teacher. Just look at how much having money has helped you. Lol you should use some of that money to fix that ugly mug of yours. That would be a major improvement, even if you're always going to be crazy.

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    17. Last night's posts were so much fun to read!No wonder people get hooked. To think, I kinda liked rich, and monica,before I read those. I felt pity. Now I just wanna see them trashed all day. Thank you SW!

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    18. Didn't rich say he couldn't afford to pay for rehab? He said he wouldn't go even if he could afford it, right? How come he doesn't just get money from the his wealthy family??

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    19. Name one person on here who has great mental health?

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    20. Can someone explain to me why any self respective person would keep coming here to be abused like this? It can't be healthy. Do they not know how unwanted they are?

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    21. The person is not self respective, or they would not be here~

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    22. Why does monica stay then? Even without self respect, a smart enough person can see when they are not liked by a majority.

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    23. Anon 11:02, Monica has survived here by convincing herself that everyone who doesn't like her, is Eden. Haven't you been paying attention?

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    24. I thought she was just faking that she believed everyone was Eden to piss her attackers off. Sorry. I have a hard time believing anyone could be that dumb.

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    25. UGH nm anon 11:26!

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    26. Anon @ 9:42i I dotn give a fuck if you believe me or not...... Dude iam24, from 19-.21 I graduated a communitym college for "Private Investigatiojns"....



      I feel NO NEED to prove anything to you unless you wanna prove something to me? Which iam sure you dont......


      Fuck off you loser.

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    27. Anon @ 9:52 I popped 10 2mg xanax and had about 14 drinks, but that is normal for me, I havent smoked any weed yet though my stepdad and I are waiting til 5 to smoke! so basically in an hour an 40 mins ill be smoking a nice bowl :)

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    28. HA HA HA No need to prove anything to me, b b but but ... I ... I ... I'm a graduate of a community college! A private investigator no less. No, wait, that's pathetic! M m muh my granny is rich! No, wait, I don't pay for my drugs! No, wait, I can't even get a D-list porn ho to return my emails. Yeah, I'm R R Rich the stuttering, retarded junkie. The PI who is crippled by social phobia. LOL Reeeeal impressive.

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    29. But to Anon @ 9:52 I always spend the first 2 days after I get my prescription every month as my "wild days of the month" I woild be on SW either way, but I always take a least 10 2mg xanax everytime I get my script, and since iam on 110 mg's of methadone it makes it feel like I shot a couple bags of dope....... ButI only do it once or twice a month than after that I only take 1/3 of my meds which is 2mgs of xanax a day instead of 6mgs

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    30. You should just man up and use a gun. Richard. Clearly you don't want to live. You hate your life and yourself otherwise you wouldn't have to dope yourself up to such an extent just to get through another miserable day. All you do is sit around drooling and being too much of a coward to either end it all or get real help for your problems. You're truly a waste of human life.

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    31. Keep telling us more rich! You're really good at defending yourself. Not trying to prove a thing. Lol

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    32. Anon @ 12;23 , I dont stutter and iam not retarded........


      You have no idea what has happened between me and "Veronica Von" (I wont give her your real name cause your a fucking psychopath) we exchanged phone numbers and we were talking for a long time, but Iam looking for a relationship and she isint, but I still wanna be friends with her, she is gorgeous, sweet, kind to all people and treats others the way she wants to be treated........

      Leaven Veronica alone you fucking asshole, why do you have to make fun of EVERY FACET of my life?

      I just wanted to catch up with her and see how she was doing, I have helped her through some things and she HATES assholes like you....... Have you ever seen her pic? Iam not talking about a face pic but a body pic...... This chick is BANGIN!!!!!

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    33. Next he'll be telling us he "knows all kinds of stuff", and has a master's degree in poop scooping.

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    34. You should put up a picture of her or her professional website.

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    35. Yep there's a lot of attractive hookers out there, and for the right price they'll bang anything with a cock. Even if it's not a functional one. Rich says he comes from money, so I'm sure they play gf till he wants love without pay, then they hand him the friend zone card.

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    36. Anonymous- I dont pay her anything, we would be getting drink and smoking weed together.... I dont pay for sex as I dont have to, iam good looking.


      Here is Veronica Von's first picture that ill post to show you :

      https://twitter.com/VeronicaxVon/status/193815780297687041/photo/1



      Here is Veronica Von in pic number 2 :

      https://twitter.com/VeronicaxVon/status/193815780297687041/photo/1



      I only get attractive women and I dont settle for less, and they love me just as much as I love them......


      ANONYMOUS MUST BE JEALOUS :) AWWWWW poor guy probably hasnt been laid in YEARS LMAO! Pathetic!

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    37. Meh, anyone can Google a picture, or copy a pic off a Twitter. Where's the real proof she was ever with you?

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    38. See TNP- I LOVE gorgeous woman! For some reason, alot of them like me too......

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    39. Sorry I think the 2 pics of Veronica Von were the same, but youn get the idea, she is gorgeous!


      Extremity only wished he could get a woman like that to give him the time of day! LMAO!!!!!!!!

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    40. I never said I was with her, we were just firneds but I think if we hung oout a little more we would be having fun, she is a party girl and iam a party guy so we fit perfectly..... Plus, she loves smoking weed, that adds 10 points to her right there!!!!

      She is a sweet, honest, kind, caring, beautiful, happy, and successful in whatever she sets out to do........... She is also a marketing genious ;)

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    41. The truth emerges. She was NEVER with you. None of these girls have been, because they won't give you the time of day in real life. Lol just because you've made out with her in your head doesn't mean she'd ever do it for real. You know nothing about the signals an interested woman give. Made clear by the pathetic conversations posted of you and Robyn yesterday.

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    42. Your stats are BS my friend, I can assure you I bang 65-75% of women I meet and develop a relatiomship, and the funny thing about it is, they are the ones who are all over me, not the other way around, hell if I like her I kiss back and get passionate, but if I dont I politely distance myself.......


      Ive never had a problem getting women LOL, but KEEPING THEM as a girlfriend for a long amount of time (or a short amount of time() is a different story :) lol

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    43. Are you kidding me? If I had to pay women to bang me, like you do Richard, I would hope to score 100%!! Not shelling out enough cash?

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    44. Rich is sexy

      An Unbiased Source

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    45. :) Anon 4:16 thank you baby...... Donbt underestimate yourself........ Iam sure we can learn a thing or 2 together :)

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    46. Just for the record, I have never payed for sex in my entire life......... FUN FACT about Rich the uber emapth...... I dont need to pay for sex ;)

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    47. Sex with your mum doesn't count.

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    48. rich is trying too hard...

      see i know cause i'm an empath. in fact i am so empathic and so good at reading people i scare myself. i must be one of those uber empaths!

      anyway everyone tells me i'm a people person. especially guys... i've NEVER had a problem getting guys lol. getting rid of them on the other hand is a different story. it must be a matter of properly distancing yourself, always difficult for an empath. especially so for an UUUUBER empath. like. me.

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    49. I'm too uber for my love too uber for my love
      Love's going to leave me

      I'm too uber for my shirt too uber for my shirt
      So uber it hurts!
      And I'm too uber for Milan too uber for Milan
      New York and Japan

      And I'm too uber for your party
      Too uber for your party
      No way I'm disco dancing!

      i'm an empath you know what i mean..

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    50. ^you're. a. moron.

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    51. see i know cause i'm an empath. in fact i am so empathic and so good at reading people i scare myself. i must be one of those uber empaths!

      This is just what SW needs, another narcissistic psychic. :( What is it with this place and "special" women?

      Delete
    52. oooh that reminds me..i forgot to add that mary roach really is a deranged narcissist, not really a comedian at all - that's just her cover!

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  11. What can I say? I didn't rape her, she agreed to have non-consensual sex.

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    Replies
    1. Shut up Extremity, you useless little wannabee. You couldn't rape your own fist you're so ineffectual.

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    2. Yeah. Cry you lil' mamma's boy. Maybe she can hold your hand help keep it up for ya, yeah? So fucking useless. ha ha ha ha

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    3. Now come on, I'm not the one posting as an anon. :P

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  12. LMAO @ 9:23 I completely agree! What a loser Extremity is..........

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    Replies
    1. I saw Extremity's pic when he posted in the forum. He's a hottie! I'd tap that ass! Lol

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    2. I want to see his photo :( when did he put it up??

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    3. Was it Extremity'd pic or my pic?

      I'd love to see a pic of Extremity's ugly ass...... LMAO!

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    4. I saw your pic rich. You're not that great. Kinda dumpy looking. Not like Extremity. He's hot!

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    5. how about we see your pic?

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    6. i saw rich's pic. he's cute. too bad about the drugs.

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  13. http://web.archive.org/web/20090127025558/http://hare.org/links/saturday.html

    Working link. It's a story from 2001.

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  14. Stop it with the fucking Skillet songs, themes. Your taste in crappy music is beginning to rival that of aspie's.

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    Replies
    1. Skillet has great words. Themes goes in waves. He likes At Vance, Tom Petty, Adelle, Classical--all of it :D

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    2. Why do you keep referring to yourself as "he" monica?

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  15. Who's down for a swim in a tub full of hot cum?! Me........ that's who!!

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  16. Verily I say unto you - The Raptor is coming.

    Repent

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    Replies
    1. I just spit out my drink. Hilarious.

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  17. She said her name was Monica. She had teeth like the 10 commandments – all broken. But I’m a sucker for a damsel in distress. Or any dress for that matter.

    People often ask me what the P.D stands for and I tell them Personality Disorder. But the sign on my office door says Private Detective. But really, I’m somewhere in between - I’m Dick Walters – Psychopath Detective.

    Monica was beside herself. Instantly I thought she had multiple personality disorder. The dame was hysterical and I don’t mean as in funny haha, I mean as in funny uhuh. She kept repeating the name Eden like she was Eve looking for directions home after an all-night apple cider bender.

    Was she some crazy Christian broad that had lost her Bible?

    The schnozzle on this gal told me the only thing she had probably lost was a parachute-sized handkerchief and her way back from Egypt through the Red Sea.

    But I needed the money and she looked loaded. Which by the way so did I but that was probably because of the Xanax and methadone I had just swallowed with my Martini that morning. I call it my narcotic cocktail.

    [To be continued]

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    Replies
    1. Cool story, dude/tt. I can't wait for the continuation. Party.....

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    2. This story is so freaking funny, Walters PD.

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  18. happy friday guys!

    are we all good? until 9:30 at least?

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  19. Because I'm in a reeeeaaally good mood and prone to following silly links people post I have a question. And actual question in serious because I'm genuinely curious and haven't been around to hear it explained.

    Monica: It appears you believe you are something of a narcissist. I'm curious as to why you think this... beyond the the results of a ridiculous internet quiz.

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    Replies
    1. Haven
      I wanted to say, I will ignore the obvious condesention, but I can't spell it *sigh*


      At any rate, I appreciate the chance to answer this, as I am feeling very discouraged about my progress, tonight. I will explain how I came to that conclusion.

      I came on SW and stayed because I crave honesty. When you grow up with a Mal Narc mother, you never get truth. It is as if one is raised on red jello and craves vegetables.

      Everything is fake. However, it is worse than fake. Everything is upside down. Black is white. White is black. I escaped insanity by the skin of my teeth. I held on to my scant emotional and mental health, for dear life.

      So, that brings me to SW and the Perils of Pauline I have had here. Each one broke down my numbness. Now, I can see that I am very narcissistic. I am not a Mal Narc. I may not be an NPD. I don't really know, but I have a false mask that I don't want.

      I want to shed that mask and build up my true self. That is going in the opposite direction of the Narcissist.

      Truth is the healer, for anything.

      Delete
    2. There was no condescension in my request. I'm not trying to be friends here, just understand, because trying to understand is what I do. I am genuinely curious.

      I knew your mother was a malignant narcissist, as was my Ex. I was only with him for 3 years but I get it (though not to the degree you do). Craving honesty when you've been fed on lies is natural. Honesty to an abusive degree is actually understandable as well, it's pretty classic overcompensation. I know that need very well. I'm sorry though, nothing you have said tells me why you believe you are a narcissist as well. I'm still trying to see where your narcissism comes in.

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    3. @monica

      another way is to let yourself stop your thoughts and just be in the moment. the false mask is like a cage you continuously create with your thoughts to keep the world out, and you in. ultimately, it's not real. you have to keep the thoughts going to keep the illusion going. it's about realizing that the way out is less mental effort, not more.

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    4. haven, it's different when you grow up with it. if the real you is never validated, then you have to create an image that is validated, because a child you crave validation, to be reflected back.

      the first step to losing the narcissism is seeing that the image is not you, which is what i think monica is saying. then you have to find the courage to throw your real self at the world.

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    5. @Zoe... I know. I have failure schemas and a very skewed sense of my self because of how I was raised. I was constantly invalidated as a child. Told I was not enough, not good enough, but oddly... in a nice way? whatever, that's not the point.

      I understand having identity disturbance, but I don't understand how what she says is narcissism. This is not a judgement. I'm just looking for clarification. To understand.

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    6. haven, maybe you need to see your own narcissism to get it? hard to explain otherwise.

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    7. Honey, I know my own narcissism. Some extent of narcissism is normal in humans. I'm not considered normal. I'm Borderline. I have my own brand of narcissism. I get it. I'm not judging her here. What i'm trying to do is understand. You don't need to defend her. As far as I'm concerned there's not anything that needs defending.

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    8. it's getting to the point where you are just sick of your self. i mean the self that has to be continuously propped up... that thing is heavy! and one day you just go fuck it and put it down... when you realize that you don't even want the best of everything or to be the best of everything and no longer care if people think less of you for it. because, when it comes down to it what they think isn't all that interesting and when they get all worked up over nothing and go all narcissist on you it's actually kind of funny.

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    9. @haven

      i wasn't, i was trying to explain. the best i can explain is you just stop giving a crap about what others think - but it comes from a feeling not a concept.

      hmm. will think about it over dinner and see if i can come up with something better :)

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    10. darling, I get it. What I want is for her to explain with her own words. Zoe, unless you are also Monica, you can not relay her experience.

      I'd be fascinated to hear your experience as well, but not as told by anyone else.

      Delete
    11. HavenSeptember 28, 2012 5:18 PM
      Honey, I know my own narcissism. Some extent of narcissism is normal in humans. I'm not considered normal. I'm Borderline. I have my own brand of narcissism. I get it. I'm not judging her here. What i'm trying to do is understand. You don't need to defend her. As far as I'm concerned there's not anything that needs defending.


      GO HAVEN!

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    12. HavenSeptember 28, 2012 5:33 PM
      darling, I get it. What I want is for her to explain with her own words. Zoe, unless you are also Monica, you can not relay her experience.

      I'd be fascinated to hear your experience as well, but not as told by anyone else.


      LOL I LOVE you Haven! You need to start coming back around more often! :)

      Delete
    13. @haven

      fair enough.

      are there different brands of narcissism then?

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    14. Of course. Different brands, different degrees. Even in NPD there are different variations of narcissim.

      'Healthy narcissism' is that basic survival instinct that all human beings should have. Just because you run around saving orphans and feeding the hungry all day doesn't mean you have no sense of narcissism. Just because that ISN'T your focus doesn't mean you have an unhealthy sense of narcissism either. Every human being should have a sense of self-preservation, a sense of self-centeredness, a sense of putting themselves first, and taking care of themselves.

      It's when it permeates your life in a disruptive degree to the world around you, that it becomes something else.

      Survival itself is necessary. It's what any human being should do, and any mechanism the brain creates to do it is what the brain needs to do. It's probably where environmentally driven sociopathy comes from as well.

      Even diagnosed NPD has many different displays. People are not merely their disorders. Their disorders show how they cope or don't cope with the world around them. And there are varying degrees of such things. It's a sliding scale.

      Delete
    15. are there different brands of narcissism then?

      Are you being serious with this question Zoe, or is this just your usual condescension?

      Delete
    16. Whatever, my point was I don't see narcissism I see survival.

      Delete
    17. What is the difference between the mask of Narcissism and the mask from survival?

      Delete
    18. Narcissism as we use it... is a specific kind of disorder. One where you believe no one in the world is better, or as great, or more deserving, or more entitled, as you are. Self worth being dependent on the opinion of others is a part, but not all of this disorder.

      To survive: Needing to take care of yourself, needing to survive, is not a disorder. It's nature.

      In the same way that killing someone is considered murder in every day circumstances, but in a war it's considered a duty for your country.

      Delete
    19. There is much more to narcissism than just the grandiosity you speak of.

      Delete
  20. Ok Haven
    I realized as I wrote it that it was not concrete enough. I lost my sense of self from my mothers abuse. I built a mask so I would be liked and approved of, as I felt very empty and self loathing. That mask was my Narcissism. SW helped me to see my mask. As such, I saw my Narcissism.
    Do you understand, Haven?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I absolutely understand what you are saying. Creating that kind of mask is a defense mechanism you needed in order to cope with the instability you were dealt, to create security in a way that you could deal with. That's not narcissism in the NPD sense. That's just survival. It's a defense mechanism. Narcissism to a certain degree is healthy and very natural. Every human being on this planet must have an instinct to survive and put themselves before others at some point or we wouldn't survive as a species. Creating a mask doesn't necessarily indicate narcissism though, just survival. Understanding that the mask is there, is important. It's a necessary thing. I work to do that as well. I deal with something that is commonly consider Borderline Narcissism (i've written about it), but it's not the same thing as classic narcissism.

      You were abused. You've left the abused state physically, but you haven't lost your maladaptive coping mechanisms. Being used to abuse and lying, you seem to accept honesty as the thing you need, but are so used to abuse you're willing to tolerate it for the honesty you never had. To me there's a lot of grieving going on there but I still don't see narcissism.

      Delete
    2. Seeing that mask, understanding that mask, is very important. I deal with that myself. I have plenty of my own. At it's heart, it's a defense mechanism. To be healthy is to learn to lose that mask, for sure. But is it narcissism? I'm not convinced.

      Delete
    3. I have thought about why I love SW so much. Some reasons are good. Some are bad. I think some of the bad ones are coming to a place where there is low empathy and trying to get love, if I am only lovable enough. That is playing out an old pattern. I just saw it, with my gut.

      I think I come to SW because it feels like my mother, not everyone, but some people. In my regular life, I am careful whom I let close. However, here, I can explore my childhood, with relative safety.

      I can touch and feel the lack of empathy. I can hold it close. I can get bitten by it, which I do. Then, I can go away and lick my wounds. In opening my wounds, I expose them to the air. I can grieve them, as you say, Haven.

      I would never risk myself, in my daily life, as I do here. It would be too dangerous ~

      Delete
    4. We don't need you to be convinced Haven. I know you haven't been here in a while, but I have a hard time believing you've forgotten what it's like to talk to Erin. She will only admit she knows she is narcissistic, the rest will be the same story you already know 100x.

      Delete
    5. Anon, that's fine. I have a very clear memory of how she was/is. I was curious, and now I'm drunk. I don't have much of a filter anymore so when I'm fascinated by something I'm fascinated by it until I'm not. I was curious. I don't care if there are real answers, I'm curious. Just curious.

      I understand a lot in how people respond. Words are almost less important.

      Delete
  21. the first step to losing the narcissism is seeing that the image is not you, which is what i think monica is saying. then you have to find the courage to throw your real self at the world.

    BRILLIANT Zoe
    This is it, said clearly and with few words!!

    ReplyDelete
  22. fReaKy sUbLimiNaL mESsAgesSeptember 28, 2012 at 5:11 PM

    ~~tttTTAkkke yyYOurrr ccClothesss ooOOFFff~~

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i aMmmm nNottttT weaaarRRRIiinnnnNggg aaaaAAAAny

      Delete
    2. fReaKy sUbLimiNaL mESsAgesSeptember 28, 2012 at 5:24 PM

      ~~yyyyYYYEeesssssss mmmy pppPRRrreetty oNnne~~

      Delete
  23. From Zoe: i was trying to explain. the best i can explain is you just stop giving a crap about what others think - but it comes from a feeling not a concept.


    YES, it has to be a feeling, not a thinking. It is a feeling stance. The thinking will never get you anywhere. The feeling will.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Well golly. A lot of peopple really do hate each other on this site

    ReplyDelete
  25. it's getting to the point where you are just sick of your self. i mean the self that has to be continuously propped up... that thing is heavy! and one day you just go fuck it and put it down... when you realize that you don't even want the best of everything or to be the best of everything and no longer care if people think less of you for it. because, when it comes down to it what they think isn't all that interesting and when they get all worked up over nothing and go all narcissist on you it's actually kind of funny.


    YES, exactly. You get to the point of "Eff it. I am going to be me"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ::smiles:: and now I'm done. Thanks. I was looking for your feeling, not a parrot of someone else. Thanks, anyways.

      Delete
    2. I put mine on top, Haven. Did you see?

      Delete
    3. but she explained it at the beginning. i was parroting her first, reflecting back her words in my own way. then she reflected back what i wrote.

      Delete
    4. It's pretty interesting who Zoe feels the need to rescue, or "help along". They are few to one. That says more about Zoe than what she says for them.

      Delete
    5. Zoe is a giver. Who the freak is perfect? No one on SW. Give people a break, Anon.

      Delete
    6. @anonymous, what does it say about it me? spit it out sweetie. what??

      @monica, i don't know how much of a giver i am, but what i'm seeing is that you repeatedly put yourself in a position to be bullied. but if this place works for you and helps, then you're getting more out of it than they are.

      Delete
    7. There is no need to get defensive over your protector, Monica. I am observing just like she does, or you, or Haven. What I saw Zoe doing, was not what I would call "giving". I haven't gotten it worked out completely, but so far what I see is one of these possibilities: 1.)she is using you to defend a part of herself.
      2.)she is overbearing and believes she is the only one who can explain things as they really need to be explained.
      3.)she has lost her patience in others being able to understand you the way she wants you to be understood.
      4.)she feels you are too incompetent to stand on your own without her help.

      Maybe it's all 4. I think for sure it's at least one, and I don't see that as being particularly "giving". I think it is more controlling if anything.

      Delete
    8. truth? i thought haven was setting monica up. i'm tired of seeing it. monica, you cater to others here in way that makes you a target. i know someone in real life who does that and talked to me about it. it's so hard to put into words what she does that makes the other person target her. it's the whole package, eye contact, tone, body language that tells the other person their opinions eclipse the other person's.

      also, i'm tired, long week, and procrastinating. wanted to post. anyway, thanks for the feeding sweetie. my narcissistic side feels all bouncy now. :)

      Delete
    9. oh and i am controlling... and working on it. should we talk about it? any other control freaks here?

      Delete
    10. but if this place works for you and helps, then you're getting more out of it than they are.

      How do you know she is getting more out of being here than anyone else? I'll add another number: 5.)she thinks she is the only one here who sees the truth.

      Delete
    11. Are you getting upset at me Zoe? Should I stop analyzing you so that you can feel safe again?

      Delete
    12. well yeah, i don't agree with the religion thing, if that's what you mean. but are you saying some behaviours deserve bullying? why not just let her be?

      and i've actually been there, and i wrote about this before. when "Erin" first showed up, her posts were so annoying i was happy when tnp snapped at her, and entertained by her struggling to try to understand what happened. then i took a closer look at where that feeling came from.

      when you post something that's intended to make the other person feel stupid, do you ever look at where that comes from anonymous. isn't that just narcissism?

      Delete
    13. Setting her up? Zoe, have you paid attention to me at all here? I'm not a sociopath. I realize people are extremely jaded so of course they would be on the offense, but have some perspective. I stated my intent from the start.

      Delete
    14. @anon

      not upset. just slow, tired. and i have stuff still to get done. you're projecting i think. you're a regular but i'm not around enough to tell which one. you sound like ... raven?

      Delete
    15. I am not trying to attack "Erin", I'm observing you, and your behavior. Trying to understand Zoe, and where she is coming from, and what is making her act the way I see her act. Right this minute, in fact; I am mystified by your responses because you keep trying to divert the attention away from you, and back onto Monica, or the other SW characters. I bring up your controlling behavior, and you ask me if I want to talk about other "control freak". Wha? I ask you if you are a parent, and you ask me who I am. I make a list of the things I'm working out as I observe you, and you throw it back at me like I have no right to report what I see. Why is this so difficult for you? If you would like me to back away, just say so, and we will end this conversation.

      Delete
    16. you're a regular but i'm not around enough to tell which one. you sound like ... raven?

      It's really important to you to figure out who you're talking to. Why? Does that change the answer?
      My answer is, no, I'm not Raven. Now, will you be able to talk to me about yourself?

      Delete
    17. lol i know who you are now

      Delete
    18. and the answer is.... no. anonymous, i won't talk to you about myself because it would be of no value to me

      Delete
  26. Replies
    1. Didn't see it. Going back now.

      Delete
    2. I lost my sense of self from my mothers abuse. I built a mask so I would be liked and approved of, as I felt very empty and self loathing. That mask was my Narcissism.

      here is 5:04 succinctly put.

      sorry guys, i got in the way. can never resist writing about it. it's like you can never quite catch it with words so it makes you want to keep trying.

      Delete
    3. Okay, read it. I understand where you're coming from in terms of SW, but I wasn't really asking about why you come here. I understand where those needs come from. Do you feel like you're stagnating though? You've been here for over a year now, taking the same abuse. When do you decide it's time to take it out of virtual reality and learn to cope with it in actual reality?

      Delete
    4. Thank you ((Zoe))
      Your explanation really helped me.

      Delete
    5. Haven
      The need to be built up by others i.e. others to appreciate me, give me approval and building up comes from a very scant sense of self. Hence, I turn to the outside for the need to feel I have value, as I feel I have little, as a result of my abuse.

      As far as SW, my reasons to be here have changed some. I have added to my reasons, while some remain the same. I love it, a great deal, so that means I should still be here imo

      Delete
    6. W ith SW, it is not a need to be abused continually, but to make it turn out differently this time, by MY reactions, not necessarily the "abusers"
      I need to go through the situation and this time have the inner tools to deal with it. There are many I am cultivating such as humor, ignoring and fighting back when needed.

      I could do none of these as a child. I have learned helplessness. SW helps me to break it.

      I have to add that SW is not all learning. It is plain gut level damn fun :D

      Delete
    7. I understand.

      I also see you using this place as a surrogate still. But you have other reasons and you'll do as you will.

      Delete
    8. I am a work in progress, Haven ( sometimes friggin slow progress)

      Delete
    9. ... to make it turn out differently this time, by MY reactions ...

      This is where your abusiveness always manifests itself and this is where your narcissism still completely blinds you. You're a control freak, Monica, and you use a number of different strategies to that end while maintaining your deluded self-image of the virtuous victim. You haven't grown at all in your time here. You're worse than ever.

      Delete
    10. It's cool Mon. Everyone is until they die.

      Delete
  27. this one...

    I think some of the bad ones are coming to a place where there is low empathy and trying to get love, if I am only lovable enough. That is playing out an old pattern.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've done this repeatedly in my past. I understand.

      Delete
    2. You're still doing it, Zoe. You're still interfering. I think it's time we start talking about Zoe's narcissism. Are you a parent Zoe?

      Delete
    3. How telling Zoe. Don't like the spotlight turned on your narcissism? Just feel the need to explain how everyone else's works?

      Delete
    4. no i just don't like poorly orchestrated mind fucking. if you want me to indulge you, then make it worth my while.

      why don't we start with something simple.. who the heck are you?

      Delete
    5. You want me to answer your question, but when I asked you one, you told me to fuck off. Supposing you think you are the only one who should not be asked about their life? Does it matter who I am? The question was an easy one too. Are you a parent?

      Delete
    6. fair enough. i'm not here to share however.

      i don't think i'm the only one who shouldn't be asked about their life. i think people shouldn't be posting crap about themselves on the internet. i could make something up though.

      shall i? :)

      Delete
    7. Not posting themselves on the internet? It might be better if everyone did. If everyone was out in the open, no one would have anything to use against you.

      Delete
    8. i would love to share, but no can do. i like my job.

      Delete
    9. fair enough. i'm not here to share however.

      Fair? I don't see you as being fair here. If you want to be the one to use the word "fair" first, then let's talk about fair. I think fair would be, that if you're not here to share about yourself, you shouldn't be trying to control how other people choose to "share" about themselves. If you don't want to answer a question about you, you don't get to ask me who I am. If you don't want people to share their opinion about your behavior here, you don't get to talk about your opinion when it comes to theirs. This could be a long list, but I'm sure you catch my drift.

      Delete
  28. Is it possible fort a phsycopath to truly love their child. or is it merely a passive obsession

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or pride. Reflection of the child as a reflection of the self.

      Delete
  29. That makes alot off sense. As I was presenting her I couldn't be more proud. I had something run through me that I have never felt before. A sense of satisfaction. I wonder is this the closest to happiness I can be

    ReplyDelete

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