Monday, October 14, 2013

Knowing you better than you know yourself

I saw this in a recent comment: "How could someone who feels no empathy for others possibly understand how to treat a child?"

It reminded me of something that one of my professors said once in the mid 2000s. He said that sometimes he would be in a bookstore, see a book he wanted to buy, but would put off buying it until he got home and could order it on Amazon. Why? Not because he wanted to get it for cheaper, but because he wanted Amazon to know about the purchase so it would be better at recommending books to him in the future. When I watch Netflix, I look at their recommendations for me, and their "star" ratings guess for how much I would like a particular film/television show. They're pretty accurate. And it doesn't take that many data points to pick you out from an otherwise anonymized list of a half million other Netflix subscribers. It's crazy. It turns out that we really all are special little snowflakes.

Has this never happened to you? That someone knew better than you what you would like? Is it empathy that helps them do it? Probably not, right? Because isn't empathy allegedly the ability to feel what another person is feeling? Does Netflix feel what I feel? Not likely, right? But Netflix still does a great job predicting what people want to watch. If I collect a bunch of data points on you, or a child, or your dog, or anything else, will I also understand how you would like to be treated? Will I know perhaps even better than you know yourself? My loved ones feel this way about me.

Maybe you're not the type of person who would go home to order a book on Amazon rather than buy it in the store (or one of the people making up the statistic that 75% of Netflix streaming selections come from recommendations from the site), but there are plenty of people who would value that unique service quite highly. This is particularly true of children who often have their true feelings and wants/needs superseded and/or ignored by the adults in their lives. And by the way, can empaths really understand what/how children think/feel? Unless they have a lot of time recently around people in that age, I have found that most adults are pretty bad at understanding or even caring about how kids feel.

38 comments:

  1. Children are easier than adults anyways. They have no practice hiding their feelings, and have no reasons to lie. Its written all over their faces. The only part i struggled with was talking to him, when he still couldnt talk, it felt silly. Now that hes a little older he wants me to pretend spaceships and robots, that is quite silly too. So i promise him a play date, or tell him im busy and we watch tv together instead. If any issues would appear, his sperm donner, or trouble at school, or he was being nauty, I simply remind myself: this is mine. He will never stop loving me, he will always forgive me, and all the decisions I've made from the time he was born where selfish, but also in his best interests. So I'll protect, clothe and feed this child and buy him all the damn toys i can afford. On another note: When he was a baby i made a consistent effort to hold him as much as possible, and as hes grown, we make time for reading a book before bed, so i can cuddle him to sleep. I also remind myself to hug him every time i feel im being insensitive towards him. I'm good enough. I'm not beating him with a stick because the bible told me to, I'm not locking him in a closet or forcing him to be cinderella.

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    1. They have no practice hiding their feelings, and have no reasons to lie.

      Do you remember your childhood well? Some of
      the lies may be quite innocent really. As I remember it in childhood fantasy and reality sometimes did interweave. Hard to say what is lying and what is not occasionally. You don't seem to remember how hard it was occasionally to convince them that this time you did not invent something "or lie" but in fact told them the truth. ...

      Delete
    2. psychopathy runs in my family hiding traids comes as natural as breathing to me from as long as i can remember (at 1O years old i went to a shrink for adhd i knew then what to hide it's 1st nature not 2nd)

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    3. Still if the socio is the parent, do you really think it wouldnt be easy to read a child trying to lie? Perhaps if both were socios, it might be a difficult read, however you still have many years to lay down ground rules, that the socio child would have to follow, wheather or not they choose to, but i have great confidence in the socio parents ability to detect the childs emotional needs.
      I hope that explains it better.

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  2. Imagine if empathy is just some data mining algorithms. I don't know about you, but it makes me want to some random things just to mess them up.

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    1. I don't think you are far away from the truth. Other then the Morphic Field theory by Rubert Shaldrake, there is no science I am aware of that states otherwise. We perceive body language and interpret that automatically. We perceive situations and identify with them, imagining our response in accordance to past experiences and built in instincts. All reactions to data mined or innately given with us.

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    2. so that is the same for ME and the rest of the world..

      off topic, if i give the gift of a farting contest to a child, do i have good theory of mind? bec feel that's what they want and we share a beautiful thing, yanno?

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    3. "...want to some..."

      ...want to DO some...

      I gotta get a new keyboard...

      Delete
    4. I gotta get a new keyboard...

      Personally, I wouldn't expect that to help. ;)

      I don't know about you, but it makes me want to do some random things just to mess them up.

      Why would you want to mess it up, Damaged? I am very aware of the recommendation systems but personally found them not working for me. Maybe due to a much too huge field of the most diverse interests combined with ultimately limited time to read.

      But strictly as an Amazon client I have managed to help to kill quite a few bookshops around me. Seems, what I appreciate is the online database of all my purchases going back in time. And the Kindle option due to continuously more limited available space for books.

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    5. >> I gotta get a new keyboard...
      >
      > Personally, I wouldn't expect that to help. ;)

      I'm gifted at spilling drinks on my keyboard. And you can't open up these Mac ones and clean them. Keys start sticking or not working, etc. Of course I could read what I wrote before I click on submit, but that would be, like, effort.


      >> I don't know about you, but it makes me want to do some random things just to mess them up.
      >
      > Why would you want to mess it up, Damaged? I am very aware of the recommendation systems but
      > personally found them not working for me. Maybe due to a much too huge field of the most diverse
      > interests combined with ultimately limited time to read.

      I like to mess with things just to mess with them. I like to know how they work. And also how to break or get around them.

      The systems don't work very well for me either. Using Netflix as an example, I get recommendations from across the spectrum but once in a while it will recommend a string of movies that I really like. I don't like to be predicted like that. It bothers me. We need more mystery in our lives.


      > But strictly as an Amazon client I have managed to help to kill quite a few bookshops around me.
      > Seems, what I appreciate is the online database of all my purchases going back in time. And the
      > Kindle option due to continuously more limited available space for books.

      These systems store all of your viewing/reading/whatever data. I've seen it used against people. Not cool.

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    6. used against people? Now you managed to make me curious. Do we have a hidden type of censorship forbidden books again? Oh, maybe in the context of "cyber war"?

      Concerning an interest in looking at the techniques involved and figure out how to best fool it, I can easily understand that. Interesting matter, no doubt.

      I'm gifted at spilling drinks on my keyboard. And you can't open up these Mac ones and clean them.

      Well I would love to take a look in side my laptops occasionally. But so far I did not consider the option. I guess this tells you all you need to know. PC's were much more easy in that context. ...

      Take care Damaged.

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  3. are you a super empath, damaged? or are you a sociopath?

    i know some peple who will give a box of chocolates when im on a diet and those people are mean and deserve to DIE so i'll put doodie in their mail box. is that what ur talking about?



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    1. I'm super.

      I'm talking about giving misleading input to the data mining algorithms so that their predictions won't be accurate.

      The people you know sound funny. You sound like you need to lighten up and learn to take a joke.

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    2. I found the diet comment, odd too. Is s/he a diabetic, did the person know it? Or is s/he simply someone that has a eating disorder and everyone around knows that after the diet she usually will have the munchies for chocolate again. All people I know in that specific field usually gain weight very quickly again, and the circle tends to repeat itself.

      In any case, it could be almost everything between a joke over simple mirroring of ones own habits into someone else to a simply misunderstanding or missing information. Why get angry, instead of trying to find out?

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    3. Hi damaged.

      It's true i could to lighten up irl. i take inner "strife" too seriously irl, I have bipolar disorder. but now i'm getting better as i get older. Funny, someone told me here a long time ago to "be light" and it worked too, so thanks for also being. astute with me. i appreciate that.

      i am joking abt the doodie, as the other anon said.

      However, my comment abt the farting contest is real. I had one with my bf son who was like 10 and he is always psyched i was visiting after that.
      Did some pokingg around and other bipolar people feel immature at times like me,. i am like a big kid. -kind of like that vegitopath here. Then i read some uneducated person on lovefraud ....oh no, come to think of it it was here lol..(fine line between cops and robbers y'know?) Uneducated mess said sociopaths are "bipolar" and watch out for their bipolaredness bec it is a clue to their sociopathy.

      it irks mea bit, fanatical people on the net saying dumbass things in apublic forum . ignorant people using labels wily nilly leas to mass hysteria and mob mentality. and that why i like this place and ME too. even tho there can be ignorance, there are smarter people here than other places to clarify.

      i am just fine too

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    4. abt the chocolate no, i'm referring to mean people and people who dont listen, aka narcissist mostly. they give you what they would want and like to sabotage goals. cocksuckers, if you will

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    5. Well, anonymous, I get that you don't like them. But why then get angry at them instead of simply laughing since you know you will reach your goals in this specific context. Nice try, seems to be about all you need in that context, as far as I am concerned.

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    6. no, i do not reach my goals. If i did, then "nice try" would be easy. I can only do that when i feel good.

      so i try to laugh but it's hard. i just don't think they are funny when i try so hard to be happy inside myself. I dont tell any body any of this. i am very embarrassed to be so sensitive.

      ^Nobody knows^

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  4. I have the impression that M.E. would want to be a mother some day. You can twist facts and tell stories in all differnt ways about sociopathic parents, and how that would go. It is really hard to know what the outcome of her parenting would be, or parenting of any sociopath. Regardless of where we group you to be likely to create or do, a myriad of motivations, aspects, cources of actions, other personalities, and general circumstances will play into the equation. Have to add that it also is better to have high functional parents rather then non-functional ones, regardless of theyr empathy status.

    I noticed M.E. had some trouble fitting into work environments for very long times without getting into some kind of trouble. OK, so todays workforce is alot more mobile then earlier in history, but remember that parenting is not something you can get fired from. You can abandon it, which is propably the worst thing you can do.

    My mother did nothing but manipulate and lie stories all her life. I have no idea of she was a sociopath, but she surely never handeled any of her children after theyr teenages. It ended in her abandoning all her children when they reaches the teens. Maniplutaing young children is easy, you really have to have your manipluation skills ready if you are going to control teenagers that way.

    How easy will it be to predict and give the child what it needs when the child is fighting you? Will your need for power get in the way of your rational thinking in such situations? When will that child light up your "power lust" and can you control yourself when it does? Are you sure your child does not become an IT, some thing that is just a power factor? Can you emulate love and affection?

    When that kids reaches it teens and starts thinking for himself, be sure you have bonded good enough before that happens, you are going to need both that and your manipluation skills!

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  5. Would M.E. make a good mom? Probably. But M.E. is NOT the
    garden variety sociopath. I've noticed that M.E. is more humble
    then most sociopaths. She doesn't boast. She's pure intellect.
    I think M.E. has much to offer. If a relationship is not working, she
    might be prone to cheat, but who doesn't nowadays?
    M.E.'s not getting any younger. I hope she DOES find someone
    before it's too late. And OFTEN it is later then you think.

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  6. Children love sociopaths because sociopaths are unconventional. They don't ask children to "sit like a lady" and they are very happy to make fun of the drooling special needs bagboy in a way that feels deliciously irreverent to children.
    Sociopaths never talk about "what is appropriate" unless they are manipulating someone. This is delightfully freeing for a child who spends the first 12 years of life learning things like it's not ok to put your hands up your nose or down your pants, use an "inside voice", pretend that people aren't funny looking, don't play with fire, poop jokes aren't funny, and it's not ok to want to murder a younger sibling.
    I had a fairly twisted grandmother (not sociopathic, but definitely narcissistic) who taught me a very strange game when my little brother was born. It was called "or we could". Each sentence had to begin with the phrase "or we could" and end with how we would "get rid of the baby". Some of the more innocuous suggestions were "put him in a mailbox and mail him away like a letter" or "leave him the in the church nursery forever" - but she didn't flinch (actually she laughed like it was great fun) when I suggested we put him in a pan and roast him for dinner.

    I have no desire to judge this game as "evil". The fact is, displaced older toddlers are in a lot of emotional pain. This game helped release a lot of hostility. I can honestly say my brother and I got along better than any sibling pair I've encountered. It was quite likely partly the result of being able to express my infantile rage without having it met with shaming. But let's be honest. It's a pretty F---ed up game. And the ugly side note is that of my mothers siblings, one killed herself, one is an expat in Europe who makes his living through organized crime, one is a former army colonel who is now a school headmaster (he shouldn't be. trust me) and my mother was "unconventional" in a way that was quite damaging (I'd rather not elaborate but I had a very traumatic early upbringing). The one thing all four siblings shared was a magnetic personality and great capacity for FUN (legal or otherwise).

    In my opinion, a sociopath should never be the primary caretaker of a small child. They are not capable of the consistency needed to give a child security. But they make excellent "aunties" and "uncles" who keep the capacity for magic alive in a child, and often help them resolve painful personal dilemmas in highly unconventional but on the whole effective ways.

    ME may find that she enjoys mentoring far more than mothering. Her impact would likely be more positive and far reaching. Parenting is boring and repetitive and mired in self sacrifice. That doesn't seem like it would be satisfying to ME. Ultimately, if you are going against your nature it's very hard to sustain consistent effort. Why not just embrace that she could have a much greater and far reaching impact as a teacher and a mentor? That strikes me as the ultimate win/win situation.

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    1. In my opinion, a sociopath should never be the primary caretaker of a small child. They are not capable of the consistency needed to give a child security.

      Mach, what specific expertise with psychopaths and/or their children do you base your judgment on? I know quite a few "normal" people who are horrible parents. ...

      I wonder what will happen with the two "abnormal" boys of the "normal" mother in Fry's documentary. What happens with troubles covered up with a multitude of daily drugs. I seriously doubt they make the core reasons go away. I also seriously doubt, that if ME trusts she will be able to take the responsibility for a child she will be a worse mother than many "normal" mothers out there.

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    2. there are plenty of neurotypicals that also make shitty parents. I am perfectly aware of the fact I am a less than optimal parent at times. There is no "sociopaths are the lowest of the low" judgment going on.

      And I know enough semi alcoholic self absorbed ex homecoming queens who are in a downward spiral of narcissistic decompensation to make me think that sociopaths actually wouldn't be the worst parents out there. Want a visual? Just turn on "Toddlers and Tiaras".

      My point is- sociopaths in limited doses can be incredibly helpful for children. They help children who feel like the emperor has no clothes understand that they are not crazy - that the emperor really doesn't have clothes and the system is very F---ed up.

      But as a woman who had four babies and then realized that meant she had four children and noone was going to bail her out (my ex was a traditional male who believed that was "women's work") - raising children is a lot of work. It's not glamorous or fun. It involves sleep deprivation and copious amounts of bodily fluids. It involves a lot of self sacrifice. It involves letting go of ego unless you can outsource the fact children have very urgent needs at the most inconvenient moments.

      At the risk of sounding horribly cynical- I've thought more than once- what if we recruited all mildly mentally challenged individuals who tend to be nice (Downs, Williams syndrome come to mind) to deal with the babies until they become more than eating and pooping machines. To say I don't think sociopaths are cut out to be primary caretakers is to simply say- I don't think they'd be up for the monotony and the unhygienic fluid part. It gets old.

      There is more to parenting than the baby stage, of course, but if you sign on to be the primary caretaker of another human being, you must be willing to put yourself second for quite a while for the baby to experience secure attachment. You must subjugate your own needs and wishes to the baby's needs for a while.

      If you are independently wealthy and can outsource the "years of patience" to an obliging caretaker, then a sociopath becoming a biological parent might work out ok. But if you don't control for your fundamentally selfish nature, you risk having a kid who is far more likely to be a borderline type than a fellow sociopath, and you will curse the day you became a parent because it will occur to you (after it's far too late to dispose of a child) that you have made your carefree existence a lot less carefree.

      My saying that sociopaths shouldn't be primary caregivers of young children is not an insult. It's like saying that color blind people will be frustrated if they pursue careers as interior decorators.

      I am not being Machiavellian when I say this. I am not being empathic. I am simply speaking from experience.

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    4. toddlers and tiaras lololol
      If Hitler was around today, he'd be rounding up those moms

      Delete
    5. Thanks Mach. I cut a longer comment. I think everyone has the right to decide what's is wrong and right for him or herself.

      I decided around 16, I would never be a mother and never once changed my mind. It didn't trust myself concerning responsibility, and did not want to trouble kids with my own problems. By now it feels that kids beyond no doubt much work, occasionally can change lives too exactly because of the responsibility bit. If it is considered seriously.

      Apart from my own mother and her sister, who died early, I know no women, who raised four kids. ...

      But concerning my friends, none of them have more than two some only one, they all were pretty unemotional about it. Not the typically proud hens with hardly a different subject.

      I have taken a short look at "toddlers & tiaras (diadem/coronet?) Female target audience? Pseudo documentary, about "real life"? Educational endeavor, economic interests? Not my type of media.

      In any case in my own circles female friends over the years have made me much more aware of the positive side of the issue, which is complex indeed. None of them though would have spoken of their kids "eating and pooping" machine. They all considered that issue before and spoke with others. It's a financial issue too. How many diapers, till you don't need them anymore?

      The woman I like most of them took her kids to work after a short while. When they were older, her then husband took over. They could spend time beyond Kindergarten or school in his business. It worked well for both of the kids. Interestingly she got pregnant twice (they are two years apart) after she returned from work in Afghanistan seriously ill. For quite a while it wasn't clear if she would survive at all. (non-profit organization, no military, only visit help in founding something). After that experience she married her longtime boyfriend and had the kids. Both pregnancies were her own decision. I love the lady, just as I love her kids. But yes, she had dealt with woman's issue at lot before starting in former Jugoslavia. Amazing woman.

      At the risk of sounding horribly cynical- I've thought more than once- what if we recruited all mildly mentally challenged individuals who tend to be nice (Downs, Williams syndrome come to mind) to deal with the babies until they become more than eating and pooping machines. To say I don't think sociopaths are cut out to be primary caretakers is to simply say- I don't think they'd be up for the monotony and the unhygienic fluid part. It gets old.

      You mean the best to take care of children would be people that are cognitively handicapped and a sociopath is ultimately too smart?

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    6. I don't really feel this way, but I recognize that Downs syndrome individuals and Williams syndrome individuals are very other focused (which babies need to form a secure base) while sociopaths are more self focused.
      Everyone is different in terms of preference, but I prefer children after the early days more because of the interaction. That's when they interact with you and you get a sense for personality. In the beginning (esp if nursing) the feed, sleep, fuss, and dirty diapers.
      I know that empathy is what got me through the early days because it was only when I tried to take pity on a colicky baby could I get past the irritating parts. Patience is not my strength, and I wish it was. But trying to empathize with my babies helped me get through a stage that was pretty unrewarding.
      The rewards of parenting are great, but there is a huge up front investment of self sacrifice.

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    7. @928-
      and I agree- everyone should make their own decisions. My concern is that motherhood is not something that should be idealized as uniquely fulfilling. It's also a bigger commitment than sociopaths generally make in other areas of their lives. For optimal development, the child needs to come first - not in terms of being spoiled, but in terms of the adult recognizing the child has little ability to control their circumstances and shouldn't only exist when it is convenient for the parent. The consequences for society of raising an unloved child are severe. The consequences for the sociopath are also real: lack of freedom, likely "ungrateful" children, and missed opportunities.
      I am a big fan of prosocial sociopaths, and I don't want to exclude anyone from making the decision to invest in a child. I just want to point out: the sociopath will need help with the grunt work if it is to be a positive experience for both parent and child.

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    8. I respect your experience as a mother, which I don't have. But maybe that is why I am slightly wondering about this:

      I prefer children after the early days more because of the interaction.

      That was pretty much my position always. Accordingly I could never understand the huge fuss adults made about babies. It always felt like a show, somewhat feigned. I never felt the same about kids generally, I love their curiosity. But in hindsight I wonder if my earlier perception was a basically defensive act.

      Only when I was "safe", so to speak, matters changed. No girl crazy artist friend could hassle with this type of wisdom: ***, you got to have a baby. Childbirth is like a huge orgasm. Or any other similar reminders in more conventional terms concerning some type of female "fulfillment".

      In other words only when I was much older, I suddenly could understand something I seemingly had no antenna so far: the natural charm of babies. Pretty similar to young animals really, babies have an arresting ability to charm to keep your attention. A rather disarming smile coupled with a very specific curious attention. The first step to the many, many questions and curiosity that follows later.

      Concerning people with Down symptoms or other mental handicaps, a friend of mine worked during semester breaks in a special institution taking care of mentally handicapped people. Down people are of course easy to recognize, but in his group where the most diverse mental issues, the most horrible ones for me were mental handicaps which were caused really serious mistreatments by the parents or mother over a very long time. There was a really beautiful but deaf boy among them. In one case a boy was found only when he was almost dead, he had a developped a really serious epilepsy as a result.

      In other words some, where not born with any mental handicaps, they got it due to their parents "special attention".

      From visits my impression was that the Down syndrome people can occasionally mirror the rude surrounding they were born into too. Meaning they they treat others like they were treated themselves. Just as normal kids often mirror their parents.

      My special Down favorite in this group, maybe since I liked his colorful paintings, on the surface was pretty kind, but at one point he broke my friend's fingers. Maybe like you, I would have trusted him to care about a baby before, he seemed to kind, but hardly after. Thus, I wouldn't generalize about "other focused Downs" versus "self-focused sociopaths". Depends on surrounding too, depends into which context they were born and how long they lived there, depends on the way they were treated, depends on the way they can deal with frustration and a lot more.

      But one thing is true mentally handicapped seem to be really easy to seduce. A couple of years later one inmate was pregnant, a woman with Down syndrome too. Big scandal. The "perpetrator", or father wasn't another inmate, or mentally handicapped person, but one of the people supposed to care for them. Seems that has happened more often in earlier times, at least if I remember correctly what I was told. ...

      Besides there are really huge differences. I once knew a person with Down syndrome who was enormously self-centered, he also knew the exact times a bus had to leave whatever station all over town, maybe he was a Down Asperger? In his special case it was really impossible to make him understand that there could be reasons why one or the other drivers would be two or three minutes late. He kept challenging them and got some type of local celebrity due to that.

      But there even is a Phd by now with Down syndrome, so one size may not fit them all. I also heard not too long ago about two Down people fighting to be allowed to marry. No one size fits all

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  7. I think my 12 year old daughter is a sociopath , should do well !

    Scotty

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  8. Just found out M.E. is a girl. wtf what a ripoff! no one cares about female sociopaths (they're just called bitches)

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  9. Hello other ME(not the author of the book). I liked your story. Nothing against you, but if I were that other guy I would have suspected you in step 1 and beat you up just by that. There couldn't have been to many people that knew about him funning around and also knew his wife. If there were a handful, and I wanted to be fair, I would map you all out for information, and then beat the hell out of the one of you that "scored highest" on propabilllity. He has propably not wronged all of the handful of people that know, so you would be a likely target. I don't understand why people are so naive. You should have been spotted a long time ago.

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  10. I will never stop sharing this testimony because i contacted for marriage restoration and my husband came back to me. After one year of separation and nearing the final stage of divorce, Dr ogul restored my marriage. I had no idea that Dr ogul had moved the other woman out of my husband’s life and was working on his heart in such a mighty way. He is worthy to be praised. Listen fellow standers, I got weary on the last stretch of my stand and was ready to move on but Dr ogul spell intervened.Dear standers, please don’t give up, even when it seems hopeless because my situation appeared that way just try and contact Dr ogul because it will not take more than 48hours to restored your marriage. Never fail in bringing Dr ogul Words to His remembrance and claiming his spell for your marriage and family. I did and now my husband and I are moving on in our marriage by the grace of God. I’m praying for you all, so be encouraged because Dr ogul will keep His promise for his spell work.this is his email address doctorogul@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  11. I will never stop sharing this testimony because i contacted for marriage restoration and my husband came back to me. After one year of separation and nearing the final stage of divorce, Dr ogul restored my marriage. I had no idea that Dr ogul had moved the other woman out of my husband’s life and was working on his heart in such a mighty way. He is worthy to be praised. Listen fellow standers, I got weary on the last stretch of my stand and was ready to move on but Dr ogul spell intervened.Dear standers, please don’t give up, even when it seems hopeless because my situation appeared that way just try and contact Dr ogul because it will not take more than 48hours to restored your marriage. Never fail in bringing Dr ogul Words to His remembrance and claiming his spell for your marriage and family. I did and now my husband and I are moving on in our marriage by the grace of God. I’m praying for you all, so be encouraged because Dr ogul will keep His promise for his spell work.this is his email address doctorogul@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  12. I will never stop sharing this testimony because i contacted for marriage restoration and my husband came back to me. After one year of separation and nearing the final stage of divorce, Dr ogul restored my marriage. I had no idea that Dr ogul had moved the other woman out of my husband’s life and was working on his heart in such a mighty way. He is worthy to be praised. Listen fellow standers, I got weary on the last stretch of my stand and was ready to move on but Dr ogul spell intervened.Dear standers, please don’t give up, even when it seems hopeless because my situation appeared that way just try and contact Dr ogul because it will not take more than 48hours to restored your marriage. Never fail in bringing Dr ogul Words to His remembrance and claiming his spell for your marriage and family. I did and now my husband and I are moving on in our marriage by the grace of God. I’m praying for you all, so be encouraged because Dr ogul will keep His promise for his spell work.this is his email address doctorogul@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete

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