Wednesday, October 16, 2013

A story of exploits: love and marriage (part 2)

I replied:

I guess your wife is right, there are always "other" ways to go about doing things. I don't know if I would say "better," I actually think that what you did was masterful. If your wife is giving you a hard time about it, maybe spin it off as saying, "Look, this is just proof that I would honestly do anything for you. I know you're not planning on coming home with dead bodies in your trunk anytime soon, but I want you to know that if you did, I would be ok with it."

What do you think?

He said:
Since that incident my wife has come to terms with what I am.. or rather, what I am not. Someone who actually cares about the people around us, I say "us" because I do care about my wife.
She knows I don't process emotion "normally". I do love my wife, she knows the way I love is different from say, how her parents love each other or how the couple down the hall way loves each other. She seems to be ok with that kind of love because on the surface where everyone can see it, its the same.

Who's to say that a love fraught with logic and reasoning isn't just as good as what everyone else "feels" ? or whether or not its the same ? Maybe I process the "emotion" on a conscious level where in they process it subconsciously. I know what love is and how you're meant to act when you love someone I just don't "feel" love, for anyone. My wife is smart, attractive and very quick witted she serves a purpose, a barrier, she keeps me happy physically and together we are very fortunate financially, she makes me laugh and she "gets" me, up until that "incident" she had always understood me and made allowances for how I acted, the "incident" as we call it in our home was the first time she knew what I did was conscious thought not instinct which is what scared her I think, but now she has come to terms with that and is dare I say "impressed" with me.

I don't know though I do feel a niggling, like maybe she should be with someone who LOVES her in the true sense of the word. She is younger then me, and so much like me it's not funny, here's hoping she is either more like me then I know or learns to be like me maybe then I wont "feel" bad about keeping her.

I realize I rambled off the subject but though maybe you could use it for another topic ? Who is to say "we" as sociopaths are wrong in not feeling emotions as opposed to using logic and reasoning for a substitute?


  1. I know what love is and how you're meant to act when you love someone I just don't "feel" love, for anyone...Who is to say "we" as sociopaths are wrong in not feeling emotions as opposed to using logic and reasoning for a substitute?

    I wonder why these are some of the prerequisites to being a sociopath. If this was true, then it seems that anyone who follows a rationalist/positivist view of the world or is skeptical of abstract concepts (i.e. love) would be considered a potential sociopath/psychopath, which simply isn't true.

    1. Here's a very rational treatment of love, joy, compassion and equanimity that a sociopath/psychopath can get behind: Fidelity.

      Normal love, with its built-in clinging for companionship, safety and control of the others' emotions (by both parties), doesn't click for a sociopath.

      On the other hand, take away the striving for control or dominance, and a sociopath can be kind, helpful and accepting in a selfless way that few people ever experience. One thing to come to terms with is that normal people won't understand you; c'est la vie.

    2. Can a sociopath love someone who isn't a strong individual necesserily and doesn't have typical good qualities of a man/woman?

  2. no one,

    Two or more groups sharing a trait does not mean they are same, and it wouldn't be accurate to imply that sociopaths and rationalists share a common etiology of their views of abstract emotional concepts, even if the outcome appears essentially the same. After all, at least theoretically, the rationalist chooses their outlook, whereas the sociopath may lack the capacity to feel otherwise.

    Similarly, it's also a diagnostic criterion that sociopaths are typically manipulative, but it would be fatuous to consider all manipulative people to be sociopathic.

    As you no doubt already know, all "normal" people have traits that are considered non-normative. It's the intensity, duration and constellation of non-normative traits that define a so-called disorder.

    I would hope that the person who is "loved" by either a sociopath or a rationalist can appreciate that the relationship is based on something more substantive than the often fleeting visceral response of emotional love.

  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

  4. This brings a classic quote to mind:
    "There is so much good in the worst of us, And so much bad in the best of us, That it hardly behooves any of us
    To talk about the rest of us."
    Edward Wallis Hoch, Marion (Kansas) Record
    (1849 - 1925)

  5. Wow. How little of a sense of identity or a life do you have to have to destroy someone else's?

    Though we all think of revenge from time to time against those who have wronged us, I always go back to the saying that the best revenge is a life well lived.

    In one sense, by living a masterfully happy and successful life, your targets will be eaten away with jealousy I assume.

    In the other sense, by focusing on your own happiness, you've invested far more into yourself and can coast along with this prize.

    All you've managed to do is destroy a marriage. Kudos to you for obsessing on someone else's life for years in the pursuit of petty revenge. Trust me, it doesn't make you look pathetic at all.

    Live well, my friend. It's truly the best win-win.

  6. I would hope that the person who is "loved" by either a sociopath or a rationalist can appreciate that the relationship is based on something more substantive than the often fleeting visceral response of emotional love.

    How would you know what is more substantive? Or about love?

  7. Medusa,

    All I know about love is what I see, hear, read and experience -- like most other people. My understanding, however, is that there is a broad range of experience that's called love. I have as much right to believe that what I experience as love is as valid as the next person's experience, even if it's different in nature.

    As to which is more substantive, each has a right to their own opinion on that. Mine is that reasoned love is more stable than emotional love, simply because reason tends to be less variable over time than emotion. Those few people I love know that I choose to, that I find that they are beneficial to me in ways I value, far beyond what others offer. They have told me that, having given it some thought, they found it gave them more of a sense of security in the relationship than they generally experience. They never have to worry that some visceral experience of an emotion will wane over time, as it seems to often do with empaths.

    You, of course, have every right to believe just the opposite without me questioning your right to do so just because it's different from mine.

  8. Interesting blog you have here, bro. Tell me, what is the difference between a Sociopath and an Alpha Male? I ask because I have always been an Alpha Male but at least 90% of your blog could describe me. You just got me wondering.

    - IronBear

  9. Gabriel, see your post sounded like an either/or sort of thing. Love, or logic, but not both. Also, you refer to your own brand of love in quotes, which reveals that you don't consider your version of love to be love.

    Your second post clarifies things a little.

    Adults with brains and a certain amount of maturity tend to eventually figure out that real love is not a feeling or an emotion... emotional love just gets things going but does not support a relationship by itself in the long run.

    Real, stable love, or at least the legs that hold it up, is about behavior. And trust and respect and all that crap. Mostly logical stuff. So your "love" ain't all that special or unique.

    This is not a sociopath/not-sociopath thing. It's just the way it is.

  10. I agree with the line of thinking that Gabriel and Medusa both have about relationships that endure.

    I think what Gabriel is saying is that for some people, these relationships are had from the start; and that what Medusa is describing is an understanding that comes to others with maturity.

  11. IronBear138, I'd have to ask you to describe what you think an Alpha Male is.

  12. Gabriel said"They never have to worry that some visceral experience of an emotion will wane over time, as it seems to often do with empaths."

    Can you say more about that statement. Emotions will wane?


  13. Grace,

    I'm not saying that emotions themselves will necessarily wane, but the sensation of them doesn't usually last, if for no other reason than habituation. And when people don't feel the emotion, they may believe it's no longer there. I've heard people speak of loving as opposed to being in love to describe the difference. I've found that I'm capable of love, but not of being in love, if I understand the difference in nuance correctly.

    When I was young and surrounded by peers in love, I sometimes felt deprived because I couldn't feel that which seemed to bring them such joy. On witnessing so much ensuing sorrow, my sense of deprivation has disappeared and I'm satisfied with how I experience love.

  14. Good question, Aerianne.

    Ted Nugent = Alpha Male

    Alan Alda = probably NOT

    I was told by someone that the biggest difference is the ability to truly love. That is true since I deeply loved my late wife and would have killed or been killed for her.

    - IronBear

  15. IronBear, if you've done some reading here, or elsewhere, you've probably learned that socio/psychopaths don't have the ability to feel emotions that others do. Not experiencing love in the same manner as some others do would be one of the differences, yes.

    1. Not experiencing love in the same manner as some others do would be one of the differences, yes.

      Aerianne, how do "others" ("prototypicals", neologism based on "neurotypicals") experience love? The way media tell them they should? Based on the stories others tell them? I onplce witnessed a couple of ladies in a place were I worked shedding tears over their marriage photos. Was that an expression of true love, or more a "love of being married". I found out the tears were meant to be tears of joy. None of them was going to divorce.

      Do you love "love" or "boy meet girl stories" in movies? They usually bore me to tears.

      But I also noticed that a 20th century Romeo and Juliette story hidden beneath a suspense tale did not work with the the US audience. Not quite the elaborate emotional controls that Hollywood is quite capable of, after a lot of rewritten scripts and trial audience tests. Maybe?

      Of course it could be true too that movie failed, since it does not contain the the typical necessary love elements or the appropriate objects for identification. In any case this was one of the few love stories I liked. The idea for the script was by Bono.

    2. oops, onplce = once. No idea why that happened. All I remember is that I had to restrain myself from further comments about their ideas about love or their "hysterical pretended fears", e.g. fear of rubber mice they threw at each other, which resulted in hysterical screaming and jumping on chairs in the direction the little rubber toy was thrown. I never understood what caused this, I didn't work there long enough to find out.

      These were normals, but were expressed emotions "normal", prototypical?

    3. 2:35 "I once witnessed a couple of ladies in a place were I worked shedding tears over their marriage photos."

      Why would they cry about it?

    4. Anon 3:37, I am babbling too much lately.

      They explained to me it was their way to relive "the most joyful event of their life". ... very emotional bunch.

      Mind you, as a contrast concerning concerning emotions. I was present when a woman I hardly knew at the time got the message her husband died in an accident. I found her reaction very, very odd too. Her response was furious, violently angry. It took me some time to understand, how that could happen.

  16. After all, at least theoretically, the rationalist chooses their outlook, whereas the sociopath may lack the capacity to feel otherwise.

    Interesting that you say this because people often are able to rationalize away their emotions once they realize that the emotion felt is unwarranted.

    Granted, I see fairly little distinction between sociopaths and "normals," since as research suggests, even sociopaths feel a certain amount of emotion; if not "love," but on occasion anger/frustration/boredom/etc.

    [Then again, I wouldn't categorize love as an emotion to begin with; not from my personal experience anyway.]

    If we speak of Sociopathy in the strictest sense (i.e. DSM criteria), then yes there certainly is some difference between those who function relatively peaceably within society and those who do not (i.e. those who have ASPD), since much of the DSM is based upon behaviour, rather than cognitive traits.

    Many of those who claim to be sociopaths on this blog would not qualify for a diagnosis of ASPD, yet they are still considered sociopaths. But, is it really that clear what cognitive criteria must be followed in order to qualify as a sociopath without ASPD?

    The reader writes, "Who is to say "we" as sociopaths are wrong in not feeling emotions as opposed to using logic and reasoning for a substitute?" This assumes that all sociopaths lack the ability to feel emotions, and that sociopaths by nature are capable of logic and reasoning. This in itself is an assumption that is provably false, if we go by the DSM criteria for ASPD.

    Many of those who have ASPD are caught performing illegal acts because of their inability to use proper logic and reasoning in order to prevent being caught in the first place. Some would say that it's merely a difference between intelligence, but then it begs the question of what qualifies as "intelligence." This roundabout way of reasoning in categorizing personality "disorders" frankly gets us nowhere in terms of how to deal with issues concerning it in a more practical manner.

    1. Very, very good comment, but here I would like to add something:

      Many of those who have ASPD are caught performing illegal acts because of their inability to use proper logic and reasoning in order to prevent being caught in the first place.

      Strictly our societies at least pretend whoever commits a criminal act, successfully or not, is a-social.

      Below the supposed rule of secular law it gets more complicated. Occasionally law gets into conflict with our adoration of "success" or someone getting away with committing something, all it needs is that the victim exhibits certain traits. I am usually don't feel any sympathy for the most frequent scenario tricking the weak, intellectually or financially. But that may come from a less secular source.

      As the "love in marriage" series shows it also works beyond or below, if you prefer, secular law too. The most important point in the story is success. However we respond to the enormous energy the "the other ME" exhibits in his long term focus and intend, we also are slightly fascinated by the elaborate plot he presents. The whole scenario of course would change if we somehow identify with the target, the couple.

      Where his plot fails for me is this: How is an insult of his brother, his wife and himself related to the marriage of the couple. If the lady was involved in the rumor, why help her out of a marriage, he may well consider bad in the long run? Would he otherwise have paid much attention to the sexual acts of the target before marriage? What if the man now finds a woman that satisfies all his needs? And he strictly did something for them, they wouldn't have been able of themselves?

      That and what feels like a slightly masochist element, why spend all the time the long term plot needs with someone you really detest?

      Does marriage always equal happiness, and the destruction of marriage misfortune? I seriously doubt.

  17. I can't believe it. I have done almost the exact same thing to someone I didn't get along with at my occupation, but I stopped after a month. I put a love note on their car, shot his sleeve with perfume, and called his phone at night and hung up. I got the idea because his wife came in yelling at him about the 'trollops' he supposedly had at work. I got bored after a while, but it worked out good. Cheers to you on the division you caused mate.
    Its not about creating envy bizylizy. Envy is something of a constant when you are amazing. Revenge is about crushing someone completely. Its that satisfaction you get when someone thought they got over, but didn't know that you lay awake sleepless until you finally got them back. Its the excuse you get to do something awful to someone and people will look in somewhat approval for once knowing they had it coming. Its a opportunity to make an example to everyone else not to fuck with you. If your friend betrays you crush him worse than you would a enemy. Vengance is not some passive game of apathy where you wish on the karmic wheel of goodness that what goes around comes around. Spin the wheel yourself and make the full circle happen now. Karma is a dish best served yourself.

  18. I'm glad to have found you through UBP13...your blog is pretty darn cool! I'm kind of a new to blogging, but I love it so far. I'm an educator and adoptive dad of two with special needs. My wife and I did foster care for kids with severe disabilities for 8 years. It's been great reaching out, talking to, and hopefully helping other families! My whole blog is all about learning to learn. Come check it out too. I think you will like it! - See more at:love and marriage

  19. Empaths have to stop being so dumb. I doubt they will, but they
    should stop being so stupid.
    There's a tip they could "borrow" from the sociopath: In terms of
    relationships in particular, life is not an accquring process, it is a
    ridding process. There are plenty of fish in the sea. The sociopath
    is aware of this, and lives his life accordingly. He doesn't "long
    mourn" unsucessful relationships like the empath does. He finds
    new worlds-and people-to exploit.

    1. so far the most significant feature of people here that "empathize" or identify with sociopath is bragging. The less significant they have to say, the more self-celebration. Some type of vicarious verbal web satisfaction? Or games certain people play?

      What both sides on the issue seem to enjoy is simplification and generalizations. But that is a really frequent feature of our world anyway.


    2. i dont think all empaths long mourn past relationships. sthg doesn't work out, they move on too, and some more quickly than others.

    3. Reflective empaths take the time to consider why a relationship failed and then move on when a lesson has been learned. Sociopaths move on without learning a lesson. That is why sociopaths stay stuck.

  20. For all their bragging, I doubt there's a single psychopath who ever wrote a decent novel.

    1. Has Patricia Highsmith sublimated her psychopath tendencies by living them out on paper, or was she only bored by the routines that the bad ones couldn't get away? Looked for a little more realism in other words.

      What about Thomas Harris, beyond the basic Henry Miller statement, not verbatim, but close nevertheless: The writer speaks to the writer, the rest is dishwater.

  21. An unsettling prediction:
    Your wife, especially if she is younger, may seem to be in an inferior position. But she will likely become more like you and refine her own manipulation skills. Knowing that if she "betrays" you by being the one to bust up your partnership (sociopaths hate to lose after all) she will face dire consequences, I suspect you have unwittingly trained her to strike preemptively. You will never know what hit you.

    Karma's a bitch.

    1. this happened to me/him

    2. He exposes someone for being a cheat, and now, for some reason, his wife will get back at him for it.

      You have problems. Deep-seated problems.

    3. Perhaps, but you have missed my point and resorted to an ad hominem attack, which suggests intellectual laziness to try and force a victory.

      The point was (since you were not clever enough to figure it out):
      This individual has established himself as a person who fights dirty. He establishes dominance by making clear that not only will he retaliate for a perceived slight, he will "up the ante". Granted, it's possible the author omitted the details of the slight out of discretion, but my hunch is that it was a petty insult to ego. Some people just can't take being left off the Christmas party list...

      At any rate- the fact that such extensive revenge was executed over a period of time suggests an individual who is obsessed with social dominance. Any woman who has been married for more than two years comes to understand that living with a man who must always "win" is a life sentence only the deeply masochistic are capable of serving.

      His wife is unlikely to be an idiot, or he would've not chosen to publicly associate herself with him. So she will (or already has) figure out that not only is he an asshole, his need for revenge will dictate the tone of any future disagreements.

      Men like this get left. And if the women are smart, they have all their ducks in a row for an airtight exit strategy. They are not interested in revenge, simply escaping an egomaniac who can't bear feeling slighted.

    4. you think she is reacting to the incident. no. it is an accumulation of the way she sees him on a whole.

      if the relationship turns out to be one-sided (im sure it is but maybe she just noticing after the incident) she is now acutely aware of e v e r y th i n g he does in their relationship dynamic. she will see how nice a shift to pragmatic love can be. she will use him too.

      it happened to me and i did not have remorse not in the least bit.

      If it was acceptable to him, why should it not be acceptable to me? HE is happy, he shows me how and now he is pissed? pffft

      most people want things equal. you take off your mask, it is on you.

      and btw, taking off the mask is a great way to get rid of someone. i woudnt be surprised if he was about to dump her.

    5. Sounds like a bunch of bitter people projecting their own shortcomings onto someone else.

      So sad.

      He did the right thing, he exposed a cheat, and saved a woman from having to be married to a plague-bearing excuse of a husband.

      And he did all of it in a really nice, gentle, considerate way as well.

    6. @ 7:01- I agree completely. But I wouldn't assume that "he" was taking his mask off because he was about to dump her. He may not get the chance. She may do it first if she's as interested in "winning" as he is. Or, if she is truly Machiavellian, she will recognized she's linked her fortunes to a severely character disordered individuals who can not bear narcissistic injury. There is no "good" option for her here. The best way to dispose of this "problem" she currently calls a husband is to gain some weight, begin insisting that they talk about feelings every night, and let him to do the dirty work. That way she will get "custody" of whatever social capital the couple achieved together, and he will be publicly shamed as a jerk. Even if he secretly likes being a jerk, having a public reputation as a jerk will put him at a disadvantage.

      Anti- social sociopaths may seem to win because they use a level of ruthlessness most neurotypicals don't to deal with short term problems. But the long term risk for being exposed as a person who can not be counted on because their word means nothing means that they tend to under realize their goals and never escape nihilism. If that's winning, then I don't mind be a "loser".

    7. Anonymous at7:10

      and saved a woman from having to be married to a plague-bearing excuse of a husband.

      Look at this below the first "love and marriage" part.

      Some other ME September 15, 2010 at 3:23 PM

      The patience used here while excrutiating to employ was worth the payoff I beilive.The unnamed wrong being of little value now, was at the time something I felt great anger and abominate for, I have a brother with autisim who they took it upon themselves to berate, belittle and cause great humiliation for ,not knowing he was a relation of mine. I hardly talk to or see my family so they were not to know, My wife said something to them and then they started a little slur campaign through out our circle of friends calling us various names and exacting various shut outs which seemed to cause my wife some great anguish. So I thought to cause some pain.

      Either our alternative ME was phrasing sloppily or both, meaning the couple started the slur campaign. If the them, didn't include her but others, how would you know. In other words how do you know, he but not her deserved it?

      You mix up one being vulnerable with only one being guilty, applauding a the mischief. could it be you were tricked? What made you feel sympathy for the woman but not the man? Because she didn't cheat. Do you have any evidence beyond what he stated above that she wasn't involved in the event that supposedly triggered the whole carefully choreographed event?

    8. 8:28
      Just go read part one.

      Also, I'm not applauding any mischief, I don't see it that way. All he did was to expose him.

    9. Now I was phrasing sloppily too and added too many commas at one point. One of my core problems occasionally, fast, fast. Not paying much attention.

      In any case at least this deserves correction:

      Do you have any evidence beyond what he stated above that the "poor wife" pushed into divorce wasn't involved in the event that supposedly triggered the whole carefully choreographed mischief? In other words, that she wasn't actively involved in the slur campaign.

      Or do you have any hard evidence that she didn't too cheat her "ex husband" either before or during the marriage. We did not hear much about her, did we?

      Why is she paranoid then, I seem to remember that was an important little item in the plot. Whose kid did she give birth to? Ok, that's a bit extreme, I know.

      Tell me, why do you think the woman deserves your special empathy in our little plot?

    10. 9:11
      You're just making baseless assumptions now.

    11. it doesnt matter whether they're baseless or not.

      people---sociopaths included-- make mistakes.

      wouldnt it have behooved the guy to exploit the couple in various ways rather than ruining what could have been profitable relationship between the 2 couples. He already is cunning. His impulse control got him sht term gain only

      UNLESS, ofc, the guy has designs on the woman and wants to free her up for himself. i doubt her would care whether his brother was name called if lust is on the table, and i doubt he''d be fessing up to his wife abt that. In fact, his wife might even suspect it if she is paranoid.
      Poor fucker.

      ^^Baseless? sure. Possible? yeah.

    12. maybe he is playing on the wife's paranoia too. that would make him just sadistic to all. That would be very interesting side plot.

      write a story, novelists sht story writers of sw!

    13. it wouldnt necessarily make him sadistic. it would just make his wife a casualty. if she's smart and resourceful the wife might suspect, fuck him over and take her own lover..

      see how that works?

    14. The best way to dispose of this "problem" she currently calls a husband is to gain some weight, begin insisting that they talk about feelings every night, and let him to do the dirty work. That way she will get "custody" of whatever social capital the couple achieved together, and he will be publicly shamed as a jerk


      i know so many wives who get all the caopital this way...being depressed and possibly borderline and narcissistic herself, she'll gain the weight 1-2-3 au naturale way no problem, then she'll shed it, reinvent herself and be done.


    15. this sort of behavior is an excellent way to escape a predatory individual. But it is not a good life strategy. Yoyo dieting is bad for your looks and giving yourself free reign to act like a borderline lends itself to poor impulse control skills in the future. It is advice I would give to a woman in a battering situation so she could avoid being stalked. It is a desperate strategy, but a clever one in that it mimics simple laziness but requires long term strategic thinking to pull off. Ultimately it's about weaponizing the narcissism of the "ME" author against himself...

    16. Mach empath does this go with how you view my description if myself down at 7:26?

    17. judging by your self evaluation, it seems you have learned to inhibit emotional responses that may threaten your safety/comfort/survival in the short term. I think that if you were escaping a predatory individual this behavior serves you well because you bypass the need to engage in a power struggle and incur narcissistic rage. "Playing dead" (or weak, or fat, or emotional, or any other undesirable quality in prey) is the best way to be dismissed as a useless object, eliminating the need to engage in a protracted fight for personal freedom. It's certainly labor saving. @ 1122- I'd say you have a talent for survival. Bravo...

    18. sorry- I meant the above comment to include @ 734 (not 1122)

    19. O. I did not think of that.

      Machempath I have a question. With my ex mal narc antisocial I saw a mark. I was not aware I was doing that, but I did that. I thoughts he was disgusting but I still had lust for him and I wanted pragma love with him.

      He did jot want that . He wanted me to put him first. He chose me for the challenge as much as I chose him for...whatever it was I needed at the time..

      He dumped me firs so he could escape narc injury. Je, I go right into anrc injury head on. I do not care if a man injures me anymore bec I have had too many injuriss to make one more matter. This may seem sad but really it had been going on my whole life .

      I am not a masochist, not really. I am a dominant female and I like excitment and challenge .

      Is there such a thing as a machiavellian willing victim. Or are we borderlines . I honestly dk not know wtf I was doing with ghis guy. I deluded myself into thinking I loved him though. This was a really good lesson. I do not hate him I do not wish bad things for him and I am not not ok with whag happened . It did throw me. But it was too interesting for me to want to leave so badly. I laughed on the inside what was going on on the outside.

      But I not battered women shelter material. I have never been a victim of abuse. I olayed with fire tho. And I enjoyed it.
      What is the matter with me. Cuz im thinking nothing much . My pdoc told me that if I was aluve in another era I would be used for different thjngs.

    20. It would be arrogant for me to diagnose you on any level. All I can do is evaluate a behavior pattern and give you my opinion.
      The mindset you describe is different than my frame of reference so the only thoughts I have are probably way off the mark. So I will repeat advice that has been helpful to me. "Is this working for you? If not, change it."

  22. empaths have the emotions and fear excuse
    sociopaths have the asshole excuse
    both do good and bad things

  23. What a loser-in-progressOctober 16, 2013 at 6:06 AM

    One thing for sure, with the lessons learned from her husband this is one woman who will feel no guilt when one day she cheats on the old fart and crosses him.

    1. it's true. there will be no remorse

    2. then he will be very cross and get rid of her or have revenge. so she has to be careful and claim she is remorseful, bow and scrape convincingly, and then have him whacked.

      aint it a bitch

  24. sociopaths/narcissists/borderlines/empaths may i ask you sthg?

    If you caught your spouse doing pragmatic love with you, how would you feel?

    I do love in many ways

    but i wanted to ask abt pragma love.

    1. I would feel fine with it because it's the way a person treats you that matters. Of course I'd prefer the whole kit and kaboodle but when you've been brought up by a narc, you're trained to take what you can get.

      Was the wife in the novel The Dinner a psychopath as well as the husband, anyone?

    2. thank you very much for your reply. may i ask what kind of personality you have?

    3. not familiar yet..but i'd see Cate Blanchette's directing debut of it

    4. @ Anon 9:24

      I'm INFJ apparently, why do you ask?

    5. What this guy did, dissing an autistic bro, was bad. BUT what possible good did it do to destroy his marriage? He does not even know why. It caused him and his wife suffering,(and possibly the baby too), but it did nothing to help the autistic brother, or even to preven this guy from dissing other autistic people. . So, other than the thrill and satisfaction (for the writer) of getting revenge, it accomplishes nothing. It does nothing to address the actual wrong the guy committed, or to mitigate its consequences. How do you know it won't make the guy even worse? As in, he's unhappy, he's going to take it out on everyone around him even more. That's certainly one possiblity.

    6. That's the psychopaths' mantra - spread the misery.


      That is rare and interesting and bold/soft.

      why? well, when i sense someone has a similar quality i gravitate to them to see how they deal with their self.. i am i and n and i do not have a problem with pragmatic love either It is practical and i do not see many women who either possess this trait or admit to it. i think women are supposed to be mushy and feelers. i can be this way only if certain circumstances are met.

      i vacillate between two or 3 other traits depending on who i'm dealing with. It's an unpredictable but interesting thing.(to me lol) and im just learning to embrace my real self.

      Embracing being introverted at my core is/was difficult for me. To the rest of the world i seem an extrovert. i think i learned extroversion as a separate skill . i trained myself at a fairly young age and also my vocation somewhat requires it. i even work sometimes too hard at it (extroversion) so i am in conflict and i even give of that i am ucomfortable in my skin when i am feeling on display. I am in the process of changing this habit.

      But i'm so darned good at fooling others, too. So i feel this is my false self but i can't be sure bec i think i lost my identity a long time ago.

      But when i am in conflict and angry i have some fucking impulsive mouth on me. i feel people are afraid of me and yet drawn to me at the same time. .

      idk why i am telling you. i guess i sense there are more people here who have this...maybe Haven.

    8. are there others here who can relate to me?

  25. After digging through the comments. It sounds like the original offense by the "cheater" was that he and his wife implemented a "smear" campaign against the writer and his wife amongst their mutual friends.

    This makes me perceive the situation as "fair" because it sounds like both couples are playing the same games and all parties involved can be reasonably expected to be aware of the consequences. If I understand correctly, this perception may not have to do with being empathic or sociopathic. It seems like we all want to be able to rely on an underlying structure of rules and principles.

    I think the difference in perception between a sociopath and myself as an empath may be the involvement of the baby. I consider the baby to be unacceptable collateral damage, where as a sociopath, he probably is not bothered by this.


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