Friday, October 25, 2013


I chose that title instead of demonizing or stereotyping or scapegoating, but they are all getting at the same basic human impulse. I really liked how this recent comment stated it, in response to this assertion: "People’s memory is the biggest resource towards learning and avoiding people that will hurt them again":

No two people are exactly alike, but we all share common traits. You've learned to identify and avoid the people who have hurt you, and that is good. However, that memory only relates to the specific people who have harmed you. Expanding that experience to cover large groups of mostly unrelated people will lead to racism, scapegoating, and stereotyping. That makes you the aggressor and them your victims, and you'll find that the people you harm will learn to avoid you as well. 

The rest of the comment is also interesting:

You didn't seem to catch this, but "The one thing I know is we are constantly being born" is a metaphor. My interpretation is that we are always facing new circumstances, and in facing them we enter a new world every day.

Animals are capable of learning, especially when the stimuli are rewards and pain. Animals live in the wild, hunting or foraging, searching for mates, bearing and caring for offspring. If their offspring survive to become self-sufficient, then they have lived full lives. The gift of intelligence merely allows people to be alive without living, doing none of the things they were born to do.


  1. Does anybody here care to comment about the incident that ocurred
    a few days ago in Massachuttes?
    The pretty 24 year-old math school teacher who was raped and
    murdered by the huge, hulking 14 year-old? I know, a certain percentage
    of people on this blog are sociopaths. I'd like to know from a sociopathic
    perspective, what was in the mind of the 14 year old?
    Did he see his opening and go for it? Was it a planned crime, or an
    impulsive crime?
    The teacher was 24years old and very attractive. 2 + 2 = 4.
    The boy and his social crowd no doubt discussed their fantastsies
    about what they would like to do with her.
    Or do you think, she and the boy already had a relationship?
    After all, she was attacked in the STUDENT bathroom, NOT the
    faculity bathroom. No doubt, the relationship is going to be
    "investigated" maybe even by Jose Baez. We can already forecast what
    the boy's defense is going to be. I don't know whether they
    televise trials in Massachutes.
    Why should this matter? Well, M.E. is also a beautiful teacher, and that
    poor victim could just as easily been M.E.

    1. The one difference I think is that most people panic in life threatening situations. Certain people have a natural ability to think calmly in stressful situations (not only sociopaths admittedly, but people with leadership skills in general). In the situation you described, someone like ME would likely go on the offensive. If someone is trying to harm you, you try to kill them first if you know you can't get away. Imagine what would have happened if the teacher pretended to submit, then clawed at the teenager's eyes while he thinks he's won and gouged them out?

    2. > Does anybody here care to comment about the incident that ocurred
      > a few days ago in Massachuttes?

      Stupid people do stupid things.

    3. Here's my comment: evil happens. I wish it didn't. I don't have enough information to judge the young man who made this terrible choice, but I feel very confident labeling his action as evil. Perhaps he will turn away from evil at some point, but even if he does it will not change the fact he chose to inflict irreparable harm.

    4. The pretty 24 year-old math school teacher who was raped and murdered by the huge, hulking 14 year-old?

      concerning your 2+2=4, is there any evidence yet he raped her? Doesn't sound to me they will traces indicating that.

      Sources: Teen followed Danvers teacher into bathroom, killed her with box cutter

      He'd been doodling and listening to music during his Algebra I class in the school's final period, classmate Cambria Cloutier told CNN. Creating such drawings was unusual for Chism, who Cloutier recalled rarely participated in class discussions but was "a really good student."

      When the final bell sounded at 1:55 p.m. Tuesday, Ritzer asked him to stay after class, according to Cloutier, who sat two desks over from Chism.

      While shuttling between two afterschool meetings, Cloutier said she looked into the same classroom and saw Ritzer standing by her computer and Chism sitting in a chair about five to 10 feet away. The teacher smiled at her, Cloutier recalled.

      At some point that afternoon, Ritzer went to a regular students' girls bathroom on Danver High's second floor, as someone was in the locked faculty bathroom, a source close to the investigation said.

      Chism allegedly followed her in.

      There, Ritzer was punched a few times before being killed with a box cutter around 3:30 p.m., said a source.

  2. People often overgeneralize something when they can't handle the truth about it.

  3. People are capable of change- that's why generalizations are toxic if they are not examined and filtered through an understanding of "what's different now".

    That being said, when someone has a pattern of behavior that is destructive, it is wisest to handle the situation with extreme care. No need to write a person off indefinitely, but ignoring evidence of past misdeeds is not "forgiveness"- it's willful naiveté.

  4. "utopian benevolent coexistence"

    Is what happens most of the time. ITs good to have a few socio's to shake things up, but its also good to have lots of altruistic benevolent people to keep things from blowing up. Too bad normal people are also sheep that are led by whoever represents normality to them. Off like lemmings they go- to soul crushing jobs, to loveless marriages, to churches and temples, and of course... to war- they are not wired to compete, to strive or to kill- just to follow.

    1. At least there's some chance of a sheep avoiding a 'loveless marriage' but if a psychopath marries, you can be guaranteed it will be loveless.

    2. " they are not wired to compete, to strive. . .- just to follow".

      That is total BS. But carry on with your delusions if they make you feel good.

  5. It seems to me that sociopaths, and people in general, are PROUD to be whatever it is they title themselves to be. What few come to realize is that all of us can change, depending on the focus and the actions. If you don't want to be a sociopath, choose NOT to be. If you don't want to be a liar, stop lying. If you don't want to be a jerk, than stop acting like one. What defines us is what we do, not who we label ourselves to be. Align yourself with what you want in life, be it moral, good, beautiful, kind or whatever. If you want to be a sociopath and think that makes you strong, well, that is your choice. In the end, you have to live and die with yourself.

    1. Thank you, oh thank you!!! I never realised it was so easy to fix all my problems and attain the heights of perfection that you quite clearly have.
      I am in awe of you. You have come up with a cure for all personality disorders:
      Simply renounce your old unsavoury labels, align yourself with new and more zen approved bullshit and viola! Bravo!

      People do use labels far too much to make themselves feel superior, excuse their behaviours, etc. Don't get me started on those who actually start ruining their lives to make a label fit better.
      And yes, people do change, especially if they become more honest with themselves, evaluate the behaviours that are causing the greatest grief and address them (or make the best of something they can't control).

      But it annoys the fuck out of me when arrogant jerkoffs proclaim that it's all as simple as this "inspirational" shit says it is.

      While some behaviours can be addressed, some things are beyond our control. What you are advocating is actively encouraging delusions. And that's the last fucking thing people need.

      I can choose not to be a cold hearted, paranoid misanthrope and be goodness and sweetness itself, huh? I can already feel myself flooded with empathy and love for my fellow man.

      What about being gay? Surely that's a choice as well then. Just like many good Christian right wing douchebags say "it's a choice".

      Delude yourself all you like, you'll even fool many equally deluded people. For a while anyway. In the end, you will have to live with yourself and the consequences of your delusions.

    2. anon 5:06 - Seems like you have been living with the same type of people your whole life, you see people and make assumptions about what they do and who they are as choice. But please go on about your unparalleled wisdom into the human psych while I munch on my neighbours dog.

    3. @ Bite me and anon- did you catch that 5:06 said "Sociopaths AND PEOPLE IN GENERAL" - this is not a post about hating on sociopaths. It's a well stated call to personal responsibility. We all have inclinations in one direction or another, but ultimately we make our own choices. For the uber independent sociopathic personality that doesn't like to be controlled, I think that excusing certain behaviors because of biological determinism is an insult. Sociopaths are known, first and foremost, for doing things their own way. And they are unapologetic when that behavior doesn't align with social norms. Most are not as prone to navel gazing as the few that frequent this site (and from what I see there is more evidence of narcissism that psychopathy here) and would probably laugh at the whole "my genes made me do it" defense.
      Nobody can choose what their emotional responses to certain situations might be, but hopefully our capacity to reason causes us to override our less than helpful impulses. Empaths actually struggle with more emotions but I hold them to this standard to. Just because they feel something doesn't mean they should do it. That's why
      And if you decide to do something destructive? That's your prerogative. But accept the consequences and don't whine about biological determinism.

    4. Mach, I happened to catch "If you don't want to be a sociopath, choose NOT to be." as well as "Align yourself with what you want in life, be it moral, good, beautiful, kind or whatever. If you want to be a sociopath and think that makes you strong, well, that is your choice."

      I don't see that as a call to personal responsibility. To me it seems to be almost a shaming attempt. "You all are so proud of your label of sociopath because you think it makes you strong, but you're fuckups. All you have to do is swap that label for one that society considers more palatable (beautiful, moral, good) and there you'll have it! Oh, don't beat yourself up that you didn't know it was that easy, most people didn't realise it."

      So it has nothing to do with me defending sociopaths and excusing their actions because of biological determinism. It has to do with the flippant, arrogant way he says it. As I said, I am all for self honesty and addressing the problems that fuck your life up.

      Love myself the way I am. But have come to see that there are several things I do that lead to scorched earth around me. Not good for me at all. So have learned to deal with that better. My actions may be more prosocial, but it does not make me any less paranoid, misanthropic, manipulative or prone to boredom that makes me fucking itch.

      But I have seen far too many people "align themselves" with truth, beauty, morality and goodness. But they are actually highly narcissistic and bitter. It's a way to avoid looking in the mirror, really seeing themselves and dealing with it. Leads to a lot of misery.

    5. I see your point. And I agree that basic personality structures are fairly fixed (my hunch is that no matter how much someone tells you that you should play with my little ponies you won't unless you like little purple horses with glitter on them- noone can make you "feel" anything).
      But for the record- I like a lot of people who have sociopathic wiring better than I like the average unthinking drone. I love the individualism, the bravery, the lack of concern for social convention, the ability to stay calm when everyone goes apeshit, the often amazing deadpan humor (to name a few things). Smart sociopaths who think things through are awesome people to have in your life (although I'd never want to depend on one, but that's ok). But dumb sociopaths- and by dumb I mean that they let their emotions (different as they may be) get the best of them and wind up sabotaging their own potential for happiness when they do bad things to other people and get caught. Then they sulk and deflect blame and are a general pain in the ass. I look at that life path and I think it's not about sociopathy. It's about arrested development. It's like a giant toddler and it's the result of following the path of least resistance. It's pathetic. There's nothing badass about "being true to yourself" if you're simply destructive because you can't think of anything clever to do.

    6. Agree with you there, Mach.

      Also, in memory of Lou Reed:

  6. This is Anoyn 506, I am not delusional. I'm a pragmatist who knows FIRST HAND that is is possible to change. I have been labled heart-hearted, unsympathetic and sociopathic by many. I am not a diagnosed sociopath but I do have tendencies towards being that way. Years ago I went on a quest to become whatever I chose to become. I decided to defy the box-image and labels I was given and choose a path that not only was good for me, but for those around me. I decided the vibrations of love/joy/happiness are what I would go after and become that sort of person. Everything in life is about vibration -- energy -- by studying numerous philosophies, religions, non-religions, science (especially quantum physics), I found I could resolve ALL issues in myself through this new path. The key isn't to focus on what you are, but what you can be...what you WANT to be. I think many sociopaths and others WANT to be what "they are." As I said before, they are proud of being superior (so they think) to everyone else because emotions make others weak. At a young age, I witnessed hysteria in a relative who saw someone she loved dead on TV (thanks to the news cast) and can attribute my lack of emotions in most situations to what I saw that day in this relative. For years, I didn't want to be near this woman. Her reactions created in me a desire to be the opposite. It was subconscience. It's not like I decided to become that way. I just know that's when I shut down emotionally. Today, I can cry and experience joy, but mostly, I am in control of my emotions and all choices in life. I CHOOSE to align myself with what I want to be through thinking and through feeling. I know it works. We are the joyous creators of our lives...and we attract whatever it is we are vibrating with. If you want to change, you can and will. If you don't, then you won't. It's that easy.

    1. "I decided the vibrations of love/joy/happiness are what I would go after and become that sort of person. Everything in life is about vibration -- energy -- by studying numerous philosophies, religions, non-religions, science (especially quantum physics), I found I could resolve ALL issues in myself through this new path."

      Oh god! You gloriously deluded fucker. I laughed so hard at this that my mascara went in my eyes. And now I can't stop humming "Good Vibrations". That must be karma punishing me for being a bitch to you, huh?

      Mmm... teach me all about this vibration that brings joy and happiness ;) Make me perfect.

    2. Anon, You strike me as an someone with the emotional sensitivity of a prepubescent girl who has been depraved of love and attention in her early years, learning to shut off some of those emPathetic behavioural traits, and decided to protect yourself. Later to discover that it was pointless, knowing all along you are just like the rest of them. Longing to be accepted and loved.

    3. At the risk of poking my nose in where it doesn't belong, 5:06, why alienate Bite Me further?
      It doesn't fit with the rest of what you say and you've given her the upper hand in this argument... or perhaps you are so clever that you knew she'd feel superior after you let her know that she got to you. If that is the case, you are truly masterful.
      It's interesting you perceive her need for acceptance and love from the things she says to you. Can you help me get from point A to point B with your reasoning? (my people reading skills are not so strong even though my emotional range is fairly typical)

    4. Mach, you really are trying hard to get into Vibrator's good books, huh?
      Might want to scale it down a bit, getting a touch too obvious.
      That comment was addressed to Anon, not me. It talks about childhood issues that Vibrator was rambling on about... not to mention this person might have made for a decent psychic with insights like that, but it's clearly not as impressive as you're hamming it up to be. Like stating "there's someone close to you thinking of a career change", I mean who the fuck wouldn't be able to agree with that?

      Vibrator is most definitely not a mastermind, just deluded and quite possibly mentally ill and thinks that by vibrating himself to the thoughts of being the epitome of beauty, love and goodness, he has actually found a cure to all his issues. Seriously, you don't find it hilarious?

      I couldn't make myself read through those rants he left further down the page, but just skimming them makes me think that he is going to keep vibrating along, desperately clinging to his delusions, reveling in his superiority at having overcome and evolved...

      He is going to be driving everyone nuts with his brilliant little ideas expressed with his trademark arrogance. But the beauty of it is, he won't know that's a big part of why he doesn't see kindness very often.

      I can just see how it will all be building up and up inside him, like a great big crazy powder keg as his life spirals out of control. Then one day...Boom!!! :D

    5. read it that way if you will...

  7. Machavellianempath, I do think we can choose our emotional response to situations. To quote one of my favorite authors, Ayn Rand, "Emotions are not tools of cognition." Emotions may be our first response to a situation, but like you said, we can choose through reason, to quickly think, and therefore, feel a different way at any given time. If we let thinking rule, our feelings will follow. If we start with feelings, we still can work our way up the emotional scale to a place of relief.

    Anoyn 506

    1. I partially agree with you. I think we influence our future emotions by the neural pathways we lay down by repeatedly choosing to act differently and experiencing positive feedback. "Good behavior" that feels unnatural at first (i.e.- running 3 miles a day) can change from being unpleasant to pleasant over time.
      Where I'd challenge you is on the point that "Bite Me" raised earlier. Perhaps you didn't mean for your argument to be equated with the anti-gay "therapy" that the leaders in modern psychology have denounced, but it's an interesting parallel. It makes me think of my own experiences in a religious subculture where repressing "naughty" impulses is the norm. Inevitably, those impulses demand their day and that is why the story of the televangelist and gay prostitute is such a predictable scandal.
      I love Carl Jung's concept of the Shadow. In it he posits that all people have a dark side. Those who repress it completely are not the ideal because it must have its due at some point. Denying our darkest and deepest impulses is not the answer. We have to accept them and allow them into consciousness. Only by knowing our own darkness can we confront our "demons" and not be overcome by them. That's what smart sociopaths (James Fowler comes to mind) does.
      Wishing away our darkness is futile. All that does is make us rigid and self righteous. Why? Because it's human nature project our fear of darkness onto others instead of owning our shit. That's why we do horrible things like scapegoat others (sociopaths certainly get more than their share of darkness projected upon them).

      So I may have just restated what you were getting at all along (if so, please forgive my obtuseness) but if I wasn't- I'd be curious to learn how "think- and it will be so" became a guiding principle for you. There are many things I'd love to be able to make reality in my own nature if it was possible to do via intentional thinking so I'd appreciate any further dialogue even if we don't see eye to eye here.

    2. Machempath I dont like to hate. If I look at my dark sides I see that when I hate I notice that I hate on myself. So I dont want to loo at thecdark side. Iask you....where doesvthis awsreness of my dRk side get me? I can introzpect abd j cannknow all abtbwhere it cones from, I can do loving things, I cannpyoject love and get love back from other people.
      I can evennchange my thoughts from time to time into loving yhoughts to myself.
      It doesnt change anything.inside is what counts and it feels rotted and smelly and diseased.
      I broke my refrigerator door off in a rsge 3 days ago from a narcissist parent sideswiping me and it taking me a 3.5 days to get over the tantrum and itsveffects on myvsystem. I understand I am entitled to cry noe and ferl sorry for who I am and that I am poor in love for myself all bec of this person, but it does not change anything. The pain is too great. So I bought myself flowers intreated myself to retsil therapy, but really nothingbis going to change me, not religion, bec I dont believe in it, not anything. I wont hate onnothers though, bec I can only have so mych hate in me for me, so I wouldvrather notblet it spill onto the world, andbi dont, not usually.

      Hold w do you learn oor program thoughtsvto lovevthevselfbinrallyndontbknow.
      How I can care thatvsomeone loves me so muchninreally dont know. Inknow 5his is anger turned inwards andvterriblevdepression. So what would you suggest?

    3. Sorry for the typos. I cant see on thiscstupid device and edit correctly. I am too impatient. Ifbyou cannot see well please askmme. Other people plscskip over ththe above post. Honesllyband truly dont want project too much onto regular folks here, bec it is too lousy .

    4. How do you learn to program thoughts to love the self for real is my question

    5. If there is a way to program your thoughts to love yourself for real, I'd love to know it. It sounds like a great shortcut.

      When your perception of yourself is that you are the sort of person who gets mistreated in relationships, it's hard to know when it is appropriate to stand up for yourself. Having a narcissistic parent cripples any "radar" you might have that would help you spot an abuser.
      I work with women who have been devastated by abuse and have no self esteem. They have been told by people "you attract abusers" and "if you weren't unhealthy, you wouldn't keep getting abused." I hate these lies because they really hurt women who have been kicked in the guts their entire lives. They don't want to be abused. But they are tentative and their body language is deferential. When someone makes a joke at their expense they've learned to "not be difficult" and just take it. So abusive individuals are able to spot them and target them. Abused women( men too) generally have been badly hurt by an early attachment figure. Sometimes not a parent- being betrayed by a best friend or first love can also create this dynamic.

      People who are trying to "help" those being abused are doing a terrible disservice by adding to their shame and sense of hopelessness by telling them that "you pick abusers". Shaming a person who has already been abused is further abuse. And for you to be carrying shame about the refrigerator door episode- you didn't hurt a person- you hurt a thing. You had a lot of feelings and you did what you needed to to let them out. I don't know if you're just hard on yourself or if other people are hard on you too because it relieves their internal pressure to make you feel shame (a common pattern)- but for whatever reason, you have been beating yourself up with the same irrational cruelty that was done to you when you were a vulnerable child. The narcissistic abuse still lives on in your self hatred.

      You're not a bad person. But you are used to being the object of scorn, and perhaps abuse. This says more about the way you were socialized than who you actually are. I'm sorry that happened to you. You didn't deserve to be treated as a parent's scapegoat.

      What's really interesting about the concept of the Shadow is that many people in your situation actually find that it is their strength and their gifts that are hidden, not their badness. In order to survive a terrible early attachment experience, it was too painful to think "my parent who I depend on is evil". It's less threatening to think "I am bad, but if I try harder then these bad things won't happen anymore."

      For you, admitting what you suffered really was that bad (having the energy to break a refrigerator door suggests you have a lot pent up) will release your "shadow"- the part of you that wants to fight back against abuse so it doesn't happen to you anymore. I think that you are likely to discover gifts (perhaps creative) that you didn't know you had. As you stop using so much energy to hold the pain of what happened to you locked inside, more energy will come loose to build a new life.

      You were not created for abuse. You have the right to be free of the shame of others who crushed your spirit. Find your "shadow" and you will find your voice. You deserve to live and to love and be loved.

      Wishing good things for you.

    6. Thank you machempath. I try to understand. I dont give off I tolerate abuse with body language. People do not abuse me in my everyday life, I do not chose abusive partners either. I choose people who treat me nicely

      The fact that I dated someone who was a person who treated me like a possession was interesting to me, not so hurtful. It was a change. The fact that he played with me made me look at him closely and trade in any feelings I COILD have developed for him for a transactional connection was interesting. The fact that I contemplated living with this person, staying with him for shallow reasons was interesting. I tried on the role of a mate who was able to do that....for a little while.

      It didnt seem abusive to ke in the least. I hit back. Hard. It was sthg I dont do, I umderstand I probably wanted to or neefed to be inva relatoonship with someone loke him so I could act out my anger on him ...he gave , e permission to do so, as his actions to ke seemed perfectly finevto hi, know how the biblevsaysvdo umto others? All I was doing was mimicking him.

      There was a tweet thst said he "-won" by making me stoop to his level. YES, that is the absolute truth! I believe he probabky thought so. But I am the one who took away my dignity. It is my strength I saw in saying things to him that were both altruistic and extremely upsetting to him. It felt too delicious to me. It almost felt like I was put to him so he could see his own face .
      I understand that the above is my perceptiomn and , ay not be his. I understand that although he is diahnosed with antisocial p d ajd I am not, that it does not make sense that I geel victorious

      I do believe he chose me so I could destroy him with a sort of soft mirror. I believe he looked for abuse from me.
      I b3lieve he thought I eas a sociopath as well. He treated me as if I was an opponent and he would tell me things as if I eadva competitor. It is because I hit back hard. Real fucking hard. I think I wanted to . I sought him out to beat the shit out of him, and I think he was blindsided.

      And in the begimning I made a point of playing on his narcissism. He ate it up. He did not trust me. He knew at some point that what I did was insincere and accused me of being nefarious in the end. I fueled his cruelty with my own.

      I am not ashamed of this. Because I believe he enjoys this "-win" by making me him. What i did was I fought, not laid down. This is a man who is not well liked. I do not know who fought dirtier, me or him..It felt wonderful to me to have him challenge me this way, and I believe he enjoyed himself.
      But we both won .

      I was nevervgoingbto lovecan abuser and hevwas nevervgoingbto lovecan object. He was going to maintain me the same way I was goingvto/tempted to use him and pretend I loved him. And he would have none of that. Who would. But I feel he invited me to try.

    7. It does not work for me this kind of dynamic. Ofc it does not work. I need love not competition . Does he not deserve love too?
      This is a man who funded a previou hf travels sonshe could nrcome a wotprldvfamous guru, swear to god. Thisis a person who gives money to get love, a person who thinks he can buy people. It does not work for him.. This is a person who asks to be treated like an arm machine and then gets pissed.

    8. let him go.
      he will self destruct. it is only a matter of time.
      your whole life is ahead of you. the only danger is getting trapped looking backwards. He was a jerk, you know that now- let it go.

      Better things ahead for you, friend.

    9. I have let him go a long time ago. I only takk about this one because it was the first yime I saw my own evil self. I mean, it was the first yime I saw my capabilities in the face of real time abuse.

      You know when you are dating someone and you feel like ifbyou do the wrong thingbyou could lose them. For me, a person who was abandoned by both parents in 2 very different ways, , y loverscrepresent authoritybfigures. I need to please them, stand upnto them, survive them, outwitbthe, get what I can from them, forgivevthem, all of this stuff bec I do not esnt yo lose the connection. I feel like if I have caused them to love me or ic they love me , I must work very gard to keep them.

      But they represent authority, because authority owned but notvtreat nicely.anddid reject. I understand that I do not neef to fix , y oast, thatvthe past is yhe past, andvthat I have mu ehole life to deserve love from a person who just loves me for me, i understand that, I can do that, I have the dapacity and tge caoabilirybof doibgvgery lovibgvthings backbto peoplecwho love me.

      I dont feel whole though. There is a hole in me and nobody can fill it but me. Nothing has been enough. So I feel very bad even when I am with all the lovemin the world. It id not making up fir the oast, and I need to struggle every day.
      But now I dont eant to struggle anymooe. I eant to let go ofceverything, ball mybdemons, and I am afraidvthat I will never ever stop crying.

      So I am fake all fucking day because I have to live. And I am tired of being sosad and angry, I am so titpred of floating above mysekf so I can get thriugh the days

      When will I stoo crying

    10. I am so sorry to whine. I see thatbi am whining. It is not my intention to try to get symnpathy from whining, itni am so sorry it seems I takecadvantage of your kindness.
      I will try not to do it again

    11. It is really sthg, to realize im ashamed to need love. Teally it is fucked up. But it is what it is

    12. Shame is not a helpful emotion.
      Your attachment needs have to do with the fact you are a mammal. Mammals need physical contact with other mammals to function optimally. Even if sociopaths like to pretend they don't need people, having regular human contact is good for them on a purely physiological level. I know I sound very detached in the way I am expressing this- but it's to make very clear that your "need" for positive human contact is something all of us share. The fact you can name it is a sign of mental health, not pathology.

      You do have a problem, however, in that your early attachments to others brought much accompanying pain. Your experience tells you to avoid attachments, but on a biological level you need human contact. For people who are stuck in a bind like the one you describe there is a tendency to repress conscious awareness of the need for others until something triggers the thought "I am alone in the world". Then old abandonment fears come up and there is a desperate need to feel connected to others. The tricky thing is that healthy relationships take time to develop, and you are in a place where you can't simply make a best friend "on demand". This place you are currently in is a place of extreme vulnerability to personality disordered individuals. They sense your pain and the fact you need contact like a drug. They know that if they provide you with connection then there will be a strong bond that forms and they will have someone new to manipulate. What feels like "connection" is actually more like "slave/master".

      It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that a world of hurt will come 2-3 months down the road after this new connection. So how do you break the cycle?

      #1- let go of shame about needing human contact. Everyone needs it. Your narcissistic parent(s?) was/were too self absorbed to meet your basic human needs for attachment even if your food and shelter needs were met. So the loneliness you feel is partly because you have some unmet needs from the past that are piggybacking onto the present, making the whole situation seem more threatening than it is. You are not "needy" because you are damaged/defective. You are needy because you have needs we all have and yours haven't been met yet. When they are met, you will feel much better.

      #2 Try to accept your need for human contact and build relationships by baby steps rather than only when you feel super needy. You are far less likely to attract a predator if you are getting your needs met for human contact on a regular basis. The part of this that is hard is that you have to drop the "I don't need you" routine that keeps you from getting close to people. It means risking getting blown off sometimes. But the small disappointments will be less than the bigger rewards of the friendly reciprocal responses that usually come. The hard thing for people who fear rejection is that they avoid small rejections compulsively and that causes them to miss out on many potential connections that would ultimately serve as a safety net keeping them from utter devastation in the event of a big rejection.

      #3 Let go of the idea you are somehow damaged. Your current emotions are a sane response to being parented by a narcissist. Once you experience the stability that comes from being genuinely cared for by a non personality disordered individuals, you can begin to relax into accepting yourself for your very legitimate attachment needs. Your current pain is not a signal that you are bad. It's a signal that your very legitimate needs haven't been met. Address those needs and meet them with non-character disordered individuals, and you will see that you are quite lovable. Really.

    13. Thank you.

      I understand you. Believe me when I say that I do not attract pd people though. He seemed like a random choice, this tyrannical narcissist.
      I know that when I met him I saw a chance to take my power. I sought him to use as a punching bag. This one, only. The ones before got to me but I didnt get to destroy them.

      When my sibling met him and sa2 himnaebthe controlling buffoon, she ehispered dont let hij control me in ky earv., I was like "im on it, no warming necessary" I targetted him because I needed to swing and 7t was enjoyable.

      In general, you are right though. I dont feel comfortable when things are given to me love. It is given I think ehy do they like me, ehy do they yhink ineant compliments, what do theybthink they are gaining from me by giving me compliments.

      Mach I have an ex who is constantly getting duped by women who meet him and think he eats up their compliments....anf he does. And he gets fucked by these players every time. Now HE is a mark. I do not feel like him at all. In fact I often wond3r if I had preyed on him too. I did not like him, Mach. I talked shit abt h8m and should mever have been with him. I toyed with him and I dhould not have. I beliebed he was the type yo never leavr me, and he was. That entire relationship eas a sham.

      Now I do seek out those who will love me. I do not trust they will stay, and I needbto take risk that they mihht, amdvexpress healthy neediness I ordrr yo really take rodls. But I ecpress , y atyavh, ent problem and they like it. They do not feel smothered. They feel free.

      And thisvdcares me...I also thonk that ehen they do mot nred mr for somevreadon or another anymore, that they will leave. I do tell them. And they inevitanly think mam TOO needy, when I am NOt. Then they overdo it and try to tell mebthings I do not care abt hesring. I meed to strihhle with the fact that if I tell peoplevall, theybfeel dsmned ifbthey do and damned if they dont, and I neef yo lie and tell them how much appreciate theit sentimemt and their effort. They are the fixers. I dont mind. But they usially have a very ecploitanle meed to fix me. Rinse snd repeat. When they do mot h ve yhis need to fix , e anumore then my fear is that they woll leabr. Do uou understand how ridicilous ot is to keep charade up so they can feel so good ant thrmselves so i can keep them.

      Is this the codepejdent/counterdependent bind pattern I want tp break

    14. O lord I cant read what I wrrote. Sorry about ramblinh on . I was arguing on other topics. It is more important to address shame of being needy than whether I preyed on people. Even if i HAD preyed on them, I am still needy for the real kind of love, not the transactional kind. I still do reject the notion of someone loving me so much for who I am.why should I get any more love than someone else? Becaise I am nice and do nice things snd say nice things to them? Because I can read them and tell them what yhey want yo hearz? Anyone can do that . I happen to be psrticularly good at it, but whatever.

      I am a good person to my friends, very good. It is the romantic kind of love that I do not trust. When the romance/seduction part is over I become very afraid. I think what couod they possobly want me for now. But the truth is that i am the one who is worried that I will not want them anymore. That is a secret I do not like to admit..that is the narcissism projection. I find this very disturbing so i experiment with half truths, and its ok. Stoll, the level of intimacy can only go so far before I get antsy. If they get needy I will start to choke and pull away
      And feel put-upon.

      There I will be, complaining that people leave me, which they do, but I am very afraid that I will not want to stay omce I have caught them.This is hypocrisy.,I can make them feel crazy. It isnt my intention. nd this is why I end up with cheaters. I end up going for the ones who I

      I wanted to tell you about other things, the things that I argue do not make me an abuse victim,,...not now anyway.... but I think I fancy myself some sort of predator when it is so mild. I

      But I read and reread your posts to me above,

      They make sense. Earlier today, I thoughbyounhad a one track mind, keeping on telling me i am an abuse victim. It was annoying me. You are right though....about being vulnerable easy victim because I need human contact. That makes sense.
      Also you are very rihht yhat yhe more imlove myself yhe more I will be able to take in love that is genuine, from sinere people. I just usually dont find most people are sincere enough with themselves to hive me the kind of sincerety I will believe.

    15. ^^-^ joining navel gazerz anonymous tomorrow^^^

    16. Thank you very very much, Machempath. :)

    17. I find your honesty refreshing.
      And perhaps (because I am battling my own narcissism) some of what you say strikes a nerve in me because it feels very familiar. I've been confronting my own tendency to not let people get close and then feeling isolated. The ah-hah moment for me about why I kept getting involved with men who treated me poorly came when I realized I had so many walls around my heart that they only men who could make it over didn't understand the concept of respecting "no means no". What felt romantic to me was actually trespassing against my will.

      The path to healing has come from taking a break from passionate romance because the characters I became involved with (via trespassing) were inevitably bad for me. I've had to suffer the longest "dry spell" of my sexually active adult life. I've had to confront the intense neediness I allowed to build up inside because I couldn't take smaller risks in friendship because I was too afraid to be anything but "perfect", "self contained", "independent". Now I am not so impressed with my emotional control but see it as the reason I've set myself up to binge on the wrong kind of love- the kind that character disordered individuals claim to provide while they are trampling your personal boundaries. That didn't do me a bit of good.

      If I am correct in sensing similarity between us, then perhaps this advice might help you: Take a break from romance and you baby step your way to friendships where you can be authentic. It's been a good strategy for me.

    18. You have some very good advice machemp.

      We are alike in some ways. I am machiavellian, yes. I think we are in different places though.

      I feel very authentic, I am straightforward usually. I tell people like it is, how I am, what I need, how I expect to be
      Idk what it is about powerless vs power..i suppose it is also pt of the black and whiteness of bpd or narcissism.
      Feel7ng all powerful and powerless at the same time, or alternately. Idk.

      Im the one who needs boundaries.

      Ifbyou would like, I could tell you how I see just a little ofbyour narcissism peaking out . I dont mind when people do it to me.

    19. please do.... my visit to this page is all about confronting my own Shadow.

    20. I dont have shame abt the fridge. I am thinking that maybe you would have shame about that. But I do not.

    21. Obviously I may've misread you. But it seemed to me that you were in a lot of emotional pain. You also stated that you had a narcissistic parent. Parents like that shame their children any time they don't provide the perfect mirror for the narc parent. You may've moved past the frustrations of that relationship, but children of narcissistic parents often are overly hard on themselves because they have internalized a lot of shaming messages over the years. I know this both from reading but also from my own experiences.

      Have you ever read Alice Miller? "The drama of the gifted child" is very good and might provide you with comfort.

    22. I dont need to let him go, you said that to yourself.

    23. I have had drama of the gifted child for about 20 years

      You most certainly right, I am gard on myself but I have had so many tantrums in my life..all bec of this person.

      I dont hav shame about my rage. I enjoy it, i have a lov hate crelationship eith it.

    24. What I have difficulty in is identifying what exactly my needs are, it iscdifficult to articulate them. This is what the narc oarent can do, My heeds are not unreasonable. Once I wrangle them in though, a person who cares abt me will give me them.

      The fact I see their heeds, very very well, (even if it is sometimes before i see my own gives me a different kind of advantage.

    25. But by all means, a person lije me, not inntouch withbtheir needs, oh yeah I can get fojplllletely railroaeed by selfish pricks, theyre everywhere,

      But some people care just self interested, and really I cannot fault them if I am the one not speaking up abt what I need,

    26. Having elusive needs is a funny place to be in...
      Highly exploitable
      Or not at all.

      Bhuddah schmudda

  8. Machavellianempath, thanks for your kindness -- something I don't often see anymore -- the ability to give the other person the benefit of the doubt. Your tactfulness (whether genuine or just polite -- and it doesn't matter which one as I do not stand in judgment. I choose to believe the best about you as that brings me peace. Even if I'm wrong, your behavior is great. So thanks.) allows me to be more open with you about my ideas. I usually do not spend much time with defensive people who think they know where I'm coming from when they indeed they don't.

    My approach goes like this. If I don't like how I feel or think, I choose to think a different thought. I choose to OBSERVE a new thought in order to change my feelings. Think of it this way, Jesus said, "turn the other cheek." Consider this in a new way. Turn away from that which you do not want. Instead of observing and regurgeting what is, begin observing OTHER realities and possibilities -- other what is's. This may be seen as denial, but the fact of the matter is, there are many things around us that are REAL -- this idea I'm talking about is about observing what is good -- the positive, the beauty all around, INSTEAD of the other realities (which people tell you NOT to deny)--all the bad stuff. In other words, since you come from a Christian background, consider Phil. 4 "Whatsoever things are...pure, good, etc. THINK ON THESE THINGS." This is the center of my philosophy. It is CHOOSING to think and focus and observe the BETTER things of life. This is not about passing judgment on others, gay, or otherwise. Since homosexuality is not something in my experience, I don't give much thought to it. Live and let live. I have my own personal thoughts on what is right and wrong, but they are my own. I never assert them on others. All I am saying is we can change WHAT we observe -- and if something we observe upsets us, then for Pete's sakes, observe something else until you can make peace with the negative. I am not saying live in denial -- I am saying find the best thought in ALL circumstances. CLEAN UP your vibration -- your focus, your mindset, your feelings one thought at a time. As you do this, your behavior you mention about exercising. Negative emotions and circumstances allow us to see contrast -- as those feelings and things occur, we now have a choice as to have to think and act. Just because you get angry in traffic doesn't mean you just blow someone's head off. Who freakin' cares about our FIRST instinct in such matters? It's only your LAST instinct or final choice that matters.


    1. Your perspective is admirable. I admire your intentionality. You sound very self actualized, which is something I long to be on better days when I get my head above piles of laundry :)

  9. Machavellianempath, There is no overcoming laundry. :-)

    It's a process as my natural tendency is not so "good" or self-actualized. I do think my first impulse is rather sociopathic or at the most indifferent towards others, but with practice, time, focus and intention, this new me is so much more enjoyable and at peace with my surroundings. Most people aren't taught "how to think" -- even Jesus said "As a man thinketh, so he is." So, as long as a sociopath continues to think he/she's a sociopath and practices it because he/she IS one, so the process continues. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the sociopath decides to be someone else? It can't be done, the world says? That is the cop out. You can be, do and become whatever you want. We are all the creators of our own realities -- don't like your reality? Then change it. If you do like it and it's destructive to others, than change it and become a better person. That is my dare to all sociopaths. If Dexter and I can do it, so can you.


  10. 506- posts like this confirm my suspicion that the thing that matters most is a person's free will.

  11. And with free will -- power of choice...boom


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