Wednesday, April 24, 2013

Self-reference

Via exp.lore.com:

"In the end… We are self-perceiving, self-creating, locked-in mirages. We are miracles of self-reference."



Based on the ideas in Douglas Hofstadter’s 1979 classic Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.

117 comments:

  1. try getting your book banned. that would get you free advertisement.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. just warn the ppl from love fraude they'll make a big fus
      or the girles from femen for some tits

      Delete
  2. I wanted to share something with you. I told you about my dog but for those who didn't read, I gave her away because I was not training her right. I gave her to someone who had spent time with her at my house and loved her.

    The point was that when I gave her up, I was crying and the woman was crying. This woman has such expression in her eyes, in general. She feels emotions and they register on her face.

    I came to a big realization because of this encounter. My mother had no/little empathy. When I was sad, she would laugh or mock me. Hence, I thought I was the bad one, the broken one. I have a tender heart, by nature and so did not lose my connection to my emotions even though I became numb and shut down.

    The point of my story is that I saw how a person with empathy functions and how someone with no empathy such as my mother functions.

    My mother acts in the hurtful way she does because she CANNOT feel. Hence, her outward actions are very devastating to people. The inner compass has it's dial all whacked. That is why the outer encounters with her are so devastating to a child( or most anyone else)

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    1. The more interesting point of this is, that you gave the dog away instead of learning how to train her right.

      Delete
    2. Perhaps in your mind, My Mind...

      This is neat. And for you to share on this day even neater, Monica. Thanks. My oldest son got a cat a few years ago, female. She had a litter of six last Thursday... one black male. I love solid black cats and I guess I have passed that preference on to Thing 1. He loves this kitty. It isn't going to make it. The other five are doing fine.

      I don't like my children being upset. A kitten dying isn't a big deal to me... shit happens. It's upsetting him. Am I upset because he's upset or am I feeding off his emotions (I'm 4 hours away)? Interesting.

      To add, the kitten is suffering... dying slowly. I asked if this bothered him and my response, "Well hell yea it bothers me!" So, I asked what should he do, what could he do? "I don't want it to die!" That didn't answer the question.

      It occured to me that the basis of all this emotion was fear... fear of losing control, not being in control... fear of death.

      You, Monica, were crying because... why?

      Delete
    3. I have empathy but I am not necessary nice with people I don't like. Did you ever see your mum being nice to somebody else, like another adult? Maybe she just didn't like children in general.

      Delete
    4. "I gave her to someone who spent time at my house and who loved her."

      You didn't say that the dog LOVED HER. How sad that you didn't consider the dogs feelings on ANY issue. How sad for the dog.........

      Delete
    5. ^ Now that's empathy




      Delete


  3. I was crying because I loved her but I am not the best owner for her. The issue is people with empathy and people without empathy and the repercussions of not having empathy.

    I am seeing that I retained my empathy even though I was raised by a mother who had none. That is the larger issue for those of you who can't follow a simple story ~

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    1. I appreciate your issue... and I enjoyed your story.

      Through your issue I am addressing mine. Now, I still don't get why you are crying. If you love her why didn't you go the extra step to take care of her? Why did you get her?

      You're helping me now, Mon... if this helps you too then fucking "A" man!

      Delete
  4. OK I am easy~
    My friend gave her to me because I work from home and could take care of her. I got her at a terrible time in my life when I had 2 deaths right afterwards. I don't know why I could not train her but it was related to that time period in which I got her.

    I loved her very much but I had a block to training her in the manner she needed i.e. not to run out the door etc She was house broken etc

    I realized that *I* was not going to be able to break this block with this dog and at this time so I asked God to send me someone for her. 3 hours later, this lady said she would take her.

    I gave this lady a sum of money to help with my dog's care because this lady does not have much money. I can see my dog( her dog) twice a week or so, when the lady comes over, so I can still be a part of the dog's life.

    The point is not the dog *sigh* but I am explaining because you asked.

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    1. Well, if God sent her. Hahaha.

      Delete
    2. @Jessi
      We call this the "throw away generation!"

      Delete
    3. You are right... it's not the dog. It's your reasoning and justifications of your actions, and the emotions you feel from a disharmony in your heart.

      You loved and love the IDEA of the dog, but not the dog itself. If you actually loved the dog you do whatever you had to to take care of the dog. She was a comfort tool. She helped you through some hard times with supporting companionship. You just didn't think it through.

      You don't NEED the dog any longer and other "true" priorities have crept back in your life. I applaud you for having the where-with-all to let the dog go to someone who actually will love her and not just the thought of her giving attention to them. Too often people cling to pets they "love" but will not take care of. You giving the money to the already charitable host was guilt. Monica, you used to see these things.

      Empathy was the topic... but you chose a selfish story to exemplify it. Is empathy a selfish trait? I don't know... I don't have it.

      Delete
    4. "Is empathy a selfish trait?" I don't know...

      In your rationalization, please explain how empathy is selfish? I'm really curious.

      Delete
    5. Tua
      You are obfuscating the entire point.

      Delete
    6. Tua
      Tell me your story, if you will. Are you a sociopath?

      Delete
    7. There are two points here, Monica... yours and mine. The light is being shown on both I think.

      You know me, Dear...

      Tom the Uber Aspie

      Delete
    8. "You giving the money to the already charitable host was guilt." another mild sociopath...? sociopaths don't feel guilt.

      Delete
    9. What part of this didn't you get Anon 8:40AM

      "Is empathy a selfish trait? I don't know... I don't have it."

      I don't know... I can't explain something I don't understand and I asked a question, not a declared statement or point of view. How about how you show me empathy is unselfish... or selfish? Either or.

      Delete
    10. TUA 10:03
      Address Jessi's (Monica) response first..........

      Delete
    11. Um, Monica isn't a sociopath. She feels guilt. I don't understand the question. I didn't even think it was for me.

      Now... let's here what YOU Anon 11:26AM have to say on empathy and whether it is a selfish attribute or not.

      And sometime today would be nice:-)

      Delete
    12. Nah, I don't feel like communicating............. After all it's all about me.

      Have a nice day !

      Delete
    13. ^ Besides, I gave you a hint on empathy at my 7:39 posts. :(


      Delete
    14. Ha Ha! A hint? That would require me to have read your post... sorry, I didn't.

      Now, you go have an even better day than me, friend.

      Delete
  5. If she had enough of the dog I think it is normal to give it away, it is the God's message that makes me laugh. It might be God's desire to have a "throw away generation"...

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    1. You know God's desires? How enlightening.

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    2. Oh, no, not me, I lost His email.

      Delete
    3. "It is the God's message that makes me laugh."

      It's Monica's message - not God's.

      Delete
    4. Jessi is just one of Monica's sock puppets

      Delete
    5. Hey! I'm new here. I don't know who is who.

      Delete
  6. Everyone can hear God's voice. I am not alone in that. Anyhoo, does anyone want to talk about empathy.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Empathy is feeling sorry for someone else because you can put YOURSELF in their situation. So yes, imo it is selfish at its core. I think it was probably founded by someone that noticed the chaotic, barbaric nature of humans and decided to use their own potentially destructive traits to actually prevent destruction. Think about it-other people's pain is too abstract to bother with unless you can understand it to a degree yourself. And it's easier to feel sorry for someone if they reflect your own identity in some way. Hence why empaths seldom commiserate, or even try to with sociopaths that have committed crimes. Even empaths cannot be universally empathetic because to do so they would need to be able to see themselves in anyone. They would need to be broad and complex, filled with numerous personas-almost like a sociopath.

    I believe that anyone with the remotest grip on their identity or wants/needs can experience some amount of empathy because it is just refocused self-pity at the end of the day. Like how Catholics will use Mary as a medium instead of praying directly to Jesus-humans often have to use themselves as a medium for feeling the suffering of others. Since we are all capable of self-pity, we ought to all be capable of comprehending the pain of others if we concentrate hard enough. Now, giving a fuck is another story...

    ReplyDelete
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    1. No, real psychopaths don't have empathy. If empathy exists is because (so far...it was an adaptive trait). To have self-pity has nothing to do with feeling pity for others, watch a narcissist... Empathy is not just the mental understanding that somebody else is suffering, actually that can be a source of pleasure for a psycho. Empathy is to feel some of that pain in us.

      Delete
    2. That is a good definition, Jessi. I want to get off the specifics of my story to the subject of empathy. Did anyone grow up with a mother with no empathy? What did it do to you?
      It could be a father, too.

      Delete
    3. Jessi 9:51
      "To have self-pity has nothing to do with feeling pity for others, watch a narcissist...."

      I don't understand this statement.

      Delete
    4. narcissists are full of self-loathing, which is why they create a persona, albeit a fake one that depends highly on the praise and approval of others. This, in turn makes their perceptions awry towards theirselves and towards other people, specifically, they see people as sources to boost and reinforce their imagined selves and nothing more.

      Delete
    5. is that why when you get self aware you stop talking to people? -I am talking abt me. i dont give the energy i used to give out anymore. its more calm.

      Delete
  8. Narcissists are only concerned with their own situations. So they dont feel pity for others just themselves. Extreme selfishness.

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    1. Thanks. I didn't know that, you're very smart.

      Delete
  9. But empathy is not strictly feeling pity for others. That would be "sympathy". To have empathy you feel sorry for another's situation because you can put YOURSELF in their shoes. Anyone can do that. You don't have to care about their pain to go "Gee, it sure would suck if this were happening to me. I know what it's like to be here." The difference comes when some people will go out of their way to help the person suffering while others will just continue to avoid being in that situation themselves.


    btw Jessi why do you, an overt empath, argue with us/act as though you know what it's like to be a neurological minority? Monica was correct to call you arrogant. Ha perhaps you're a bit of a narc.

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    1. I came to learn about sociopths to understand better my "exotic bird" but I think I haven't crossed any one here yet. Maybe this is arrogant or maybe is right. It is possible to be arrogant without being narcissistic, as it is possible to be an introvert who dislikes family and likes cats without being a sociopath...
      Jessi

      Delete
    2. Yes, as I have never claimed to be a sociopath. I do not think there is an accurate label for me at this point in time other than "loner".

      Delete
  10. Also, there is such a thing as cognitive empathy. Look into that before you dismiss that all are capable.


    I think I am capable of becoming virtually anything, character-wise, if I am determined enough to adopt it.

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    1. Anyone who thinks they could be in a give and take relationship with a sociopath is a bit a of a narc.

      Delete
    2. haha I hope M.E. makes that into a tweet.

      Yeah anything in cluster B is going to be mostly them taking. And if both partners fall within then...

      Delete
    3. Hein! Someone here explained a succesfull give and take relationship with a sociopath!
      Jessi

      Delete
  11. Then what? Lol I don't know. Would they be able to manage each other well? One of the two would have stronger traits and just cancel out the other? I don't even know how to think about it lol.

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  12. Could go quite badly. They might be very drawn to each other at first, but unless they happened to share all the same wants/needs one of them would have to compromise and go unaccommodated and I don't think that's an option.

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  13. My mother and brother are narcissistic. They always end up taking long breaks from each other...two years may go by before they talk again. Then one will call the other at some point for whatever reason. They manage for 6 months then take a break again. This is how it's been for 30 years or so. I try to accept it but its hard for me to hear my mother talk of how great he is while she puts me down. Then he leaves her again and she is silent about him. I can't help but think I should have been doing the same. He gets respect while I get shit on. It my fault.

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  14. My mother has borderline and histrionic features. She is basically the real-life Blanche DuBois, except with more anger. My friend is also borderline, but because they have learned to remain very cool on the surface, at times it is extremely difficult to differentiate them from a sociopath. They are the one capable of powerful emotions and yet I sometimes feel like the one being coldly manipulated (or at least they try). I may not have to worry about painful heartbreak, but my pride is at stake in every relationship. There can only be one winner, and if you aren't the winner you're the loser.

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  15. If she wasn't my mother I'm sure I would have nothing to do with her. She is now in her 70s and I feel that she is just a lonely woman with no real relationships. She is an alcoholic sober 30 yrs. The only change in her is that she doesn't drink anymore. At this point I just feel bad for her. Her words don't affect me like they used to. When she gives me the silent treatment I have peace for a week lol. I thought to myself the other day " I can't wait til she dies" horrible thought yet honest.

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    1. Some people are painful, and they have relatives. I think it is normal to have those thoughts. People are too politically correct and just talk about the bright side (even if they know it is fake). Honesty is good.
      Jessi

      Delete
  16. Yeah unfortunately I am still dependent so I have to let people use me for company and a shoulder to vent at so I can get what I need from them financially. But my dream is to be able to cut everyone off if I want to. Thought about faking my own death many times. I can't stand the obligations having a family throws on you. I never asked for my existence and I am sick of pretending to care.

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    1. "I never asked for my existence "

      Really? Who did? Now, no one is saying you have to care about it. I would like to point out that part of you understands that it is YOUR existence... there is another part of you that still feels an obligation to the world. But you do care about it. You just need to start living totally for yourself. It's a pretty good feeling.

      Delete
    2. Sigh. I say things with one intention but they tend to get perceived another way...

      I am content with my existence, but because I did not ask for it I do not feel I should be obligated to people just because they've helped maintain it. Ideally people would just do shit for me then they would go away and let me enjoy it without having to hear them talk.

      Delete
    3. At the end of the day... as the dirt is shoveled on your lifeless ass, what do you have? It's your life Chet. Live it.

      Delete
    4. I am. Just trying to get as much as I can out of a source first.

      Delete
    5. No worries then... it's nice to meet you. You're different.

      That said, we lost a solid black kitten today... less than a week old and just wouldn't nurse. Five fuzzy grey kitties still kicking. Two have six toes on both front paws... want a cat?

      Delete
  17. I have had thoughts of suicide many times. But I have a son and husband that love me and I love them. Not gonna let some old bat ruin me for good. Old witch

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  18. Yes Monica, TUA is Tom/Virus... I've missed you.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. He He... I so hope I made you sick:-)

      Delete
    2. Now, now, ugly :)

      Delete
    3. TUA
      You are Tom. I have missed you, too. Welcome Back :D
      What is going on with your wife?

      Delete
  19. I am probably not going to post to the blog anymore. It was an interesting read but I don't know if it is good for me to be around so much manipulation. The forum was a real pain. Couldn't tell which end was up.

    It really makes me ill.

    Maria/banana

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stay Maria
      If you can deal with people on here, you can deal with people in your real life. I was a total mess when I came on here, now I am a partial one :D

      Delete
  20. I'm not suicidal. I just don't want to be bothered with the obligation to be part of a family. I yearn for financial dependence...or at least a new source so that if I don't want to fucking call them on the phone I don't have to.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Is the name ecsher mentioned in the post the same person as the artist ecsher?

    ReplyDelete
  22. You yearn for financial dependence? Are you a narcissist?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Replies
    1. I definitely think that is the goal of finantial independency. And full finantial independency is not just being able to get rid of your family but also of your boss...
      Jessi

      Delete
    2. "Finantial independency", eh? Somehow I doubt you've achieved what you can't even express, let alone spell properly. And here I was thinking that you were slated to become SW's new resident expert on psychopathy, since you make so many bold assertions concerning what we can and cannot do, feel, say, or believe.~

      So what's your story, jess? Are you a jilted lover, or the Only True Sociopath to grace this board, hmmm?

      Delete
  24. Hey Jessi! I just noticed this...

    "TUA, a sociopath with children?? You have them but you don't care about them I hope. Or aren't you a a sociopath?"

    Just wonderng, do you have a... clue?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Clearly she does not, Tom, but don't force her to think about it too much. The mental exertion might singe her brain cell; I can smell the wood burning from all the way up here. :p

      Delete
  25. Monica,

    The reason you were crying has to do with your feeling guilt, while the reason that woman was crying could well be out of mirroring, she surely has no guilt feelings; maybe she was crying out of feeling high as a hero saving the day for the dog.

    Did you draw parallels with your inability to take care of your son as you were crying? I don't suggest that you should, I just think you do and that's very wrong.

    Try to think selfish in the sense that you had no energy for taking care of the dog and was good at finding someone who could. Also, accept the fact that you are not the best thing for a dog and the dog couldn't care less that s/he is not with you anymore, meaning your sadness also assumes the dog misses you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. no, real empathy is a person seeing and understanding why someone is crying and crying with them. It is when you have a shared "knowing" of the other's feeling.

      ANd what about mirroring ? If this woman mirroed Monica's crying with crying, that would NOT be empathy?


      what is the difference. If you feel something with a person while watching them feel it, you may be a mirror but aren't you also empathizing? Honest question . Because i dont know.

      WHen that lady cried with you, Monica, did you feel like she was supporting you? What did you feel???

      Delete
    2. @dog gone
      This is the reason I stick around here, for this kind of brilliance and depth. You sound like Literary Anon or some of my other favorite brilliant Anons.

      Thank you, Friend <3

      Delete
    3. Anon 10:20

      I see this woman several times a week. I started noticing the feeling in her eyes. She looks like a child where you can see the child's heart in his eyes.

      I love to be around her because I knew she could feel and was not afraid and ashamed to show it. She is from another country where they may not try to guard their feelings by trying to be "cool". i don't know if this is part of it or it is just her.

      However, I noticed that I could see the beautiful feelings of her heart on her face. I started wanting to interact with her to have this connection with someone because most people guard their hearts.

      When she cried, I felt an empathy for me and an empathy for the dog. I did not feel any judgement although other people would have had it, as many did on here.

      The dog was all wrapped up in the deaths that happened at the time I got her. I had a dog prior to her which I trained well.

      However, this woman, for whatever reason, has access to her heart and is not afraid to show it but she is not wimpy about life.

      Just interacting with her showed me my mother. My mother is cold, cruel, sadistic and rejecting when I am upset, screw up, make a mistake etc

      From dealing with this woman, I saw the contrast with the malignant narcissist. I saw how it might be like to have a mother like this where you could breathe and be and you did not have to build up all these crazy defenses, just to survive.



      Anyway, I only felt empathy and care from this woman. I wonder if her being from another country, a Spanish country, makes her more able to be in touch with her emotions. It may, but it is still her sensitive nature, which she has not let harden.

      Delete
    4. @Dog gone
      Is that you, L.A? Your voice is very soothing to me.

      Delete
  26. Hi Monica.

    I want to talk about selfish feelings.

    I was with a friend who speaks to me about people in his group therapy. (I actually think the person may be a bit narcissistic but that's not the point.)

    There is a person in my friend's group who my friend says has schizophrenia. The guy is apparently always complaining about the same things... not moving ahead, not having a job, being dissatisfied/depressed. This guy has`been with this therapist and in the group for a long time.

    I would like to talk about a few things.

    1) my friend says that he gets angry at the schizo for being stuck so long and repeating the same story for years. He tells him openly that the schizo is "pissing him off". Idk what my friend is angry about, but i am going to guess he is just tired of the schizo. Still i think it is odd. What is that???

    2) MY reaction to the situation was: the therapist should have referred that guy out a long time ago. I was outwardly showing anger at the therapist/situation. I

    3) my friend tells me i am projecting... ok, yeah, i do that a LOT.
    So I tell my friend "you're damned right i'm projecting", and i proceed to rant with some restraint about therapists whose clients make little progress because`they have too much pride, greed, delusions about their abilities and won't accept that they can't help out-of-the-norm( more than neurotic) populace of people in therapy.

    My friend kind of shuts up and says yeah the therapist prob has` too much pride.

    I have no idea where there is empathy here. I dont see any.
    I certainly dont know this schizo kid.. My friend's reaction interests me because`my friend gets angry at the kid and tells him so. I dont understand this. ?What is that, and what is my reaction?
    .. . I know my reaction was heated because i think my therpist should have referred ME out. I thought my therapist, in the end, was not qualified, and that he should have told me to go to a place for borderlines like dbt. ?Whatver.. I understand my reaction as part of being a narcissist/borderline. Is that true?



    What was my friend's anger?






    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You sound lie you are trying to talk bout yourself. Are you Fat?

      Delete
    2. yes, i was. I thought that was obvious. Where do you get "fat" from?

      Delete
    3. @Anon 8:16

      This is what I think, just based on my trying to read under your words. You NEED to be more selfish. You can practice it on here with me( and anyone else who wants to) because I need to be more selfish too.

      In our selfishness is our health. In our selfishness is our dampened and pushed down true self. We need to feel all our selfish wants and needs. We were not allowed to have normal selfish needs as a child of a malignant Narc or other PD. Therein, lies a big part of our healing. Are you game?


      As far as this situation, you may be putting yourself in the place of the schizo guy and feel all upset that you are doing the same thing and people are angry and, also, that your therapist should have referred you out and anger at that.

      I think it is all a mirror of your struggles to come out of the shell which you had to build up to survive your childhood.


      If you are like me, you are scared to death of anger and of taking up too much room, psychologically, and people being mad.

      At any rate, I think we can help each other( and anyone else who wants to join) by allowing ourselves to be selfish and coming back and talking about it. What do you think? <3

      Delete
    4. Yes, that's exactly right, Monica.
      I was talking about empathy and you artfully changed the subject again.
      But i am getting used to your lazor-sharp, one track mind.

      You are very s e l f i s h and efficient the way you use your one track mind :)

      I wouldn't mind having a brain transplant in the area of selfishness, no.

      Delete
    5. I don't know it this is the same Anon who asked me the question because you seem like Hostile Anon~

      Delete
    6. Anon 8:51
      I'm surprised you don't see Monica's behavior as manipulative and her continued use of "gaslighting." And sometimes brainwashing.

      Delete
    7. Don't blame the poor Anon. It is easy to see that there is something wrong with Monica but it takes time to see the extent of the issue. I'm getting amazed.
      Jessi

      Delete
    8. By contrast, it takes only a moment to perceive the extent of your ignorance. Colour me distinctly unamazed.

      Delete
    9. Alter has my vote.

      Delete
    10. You are goal oriented and you like to steer conversation. I point this out in a cheeky way and you call me hostile?? Priceless.

      Just because you do <3 and :) and ~ does not mean you cover your own hostility.



      Delete
    11. if you tease someone that makes you hostile?

      Delete
  27. I used to live. Life was full of fun. The uncertainty and control. That was the fun in life. Until one day God called me and took away those attributes. Theres no control and the certainty has fainted, its Gods fault now.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Chet, you sound like a guy I know. Would you happen to be 25 years old and play hockey?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Hmm I wonder who is out chasing whores???

    ReplyDelete
  30. Replies
    1. Heya, how you doing?

      Delete
    2. *shrug* How did you know?

      Delete
    3. o for crissakes

      Delete
    4. Haha :) Good to see ya too

      Delete
    5. My mother came over and decided to clean my apt after i left this morning. She left me a note saying how sorry she was for my things on top of my dresser toppling over (one foot is loose and hangs by a thread.) She also wrote how many crumbs of food are in between the couch cushions and i need to get a toothbrush to get it out.

      That's how i am.

      Delete
    6. Good, how are you?

      Delete
    7. ok. hormonal.

      Delete
    8. goodnight, I guess.

      Delete

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