Friday, August 10, 2012

Dreams

People mistakenly assume that because sociopaths don't empathize, they don't have emotions. I've never heard of a sociopath not having emotions. I do think that sociopath emotions are frequently shallow and stunted, childlike even, but how many people do you know who are emotionally stunted and are not sociopaths?

And what are emotions anyway? They're at least partially contextual -- they at least partially originate from the stories we tell ourselves. If you have "butterflies in your stomach," you could be nervous or excited depending on your interpretation of your situation. And there are certain emotions that exist in some cultures that don't necessarily exist in others, e.g. saudades in Brazil or the intense aspects of shame in Japan. Are emotions just an interpretation of the body's evolutionary fight or flight reactions? Are emotions only releases of adrenaline that we interpret as anxiety? Or endorphins that we interpret as satisfaction?

One theory of why we dream suggests that dreams are the result of our brain trying to interpret external stimuli during sleep. For instance, if we are cold, we imagine that we are walking through snow. Our subconscious concocts a story to explain things we are sensing during our sleep -- trying desperately to make random and incomplete sensory inputs fit into whatever fictional scenario we have literally dreamed up. Are our emotions the same? Are we just interpreting sensory inputs? Making up explanations that support the stories we tell ourselves?

Do we ever wake up?

188 comments:

  1. "i do think that sociopath emotions are frequently shallow and stunted, childlike even, but how many people do you know who are emotionally stunted and are not sociopaths?"

    Any person with a Cluster B personality disorder.

    The dream thing, I'm pretty sure the leading theories nowadays are to do with dreams helping memorisation, or just being a bunch of random firings of neurons in the brain. There isn't really enough external stimuli for the variation seen in dreams.

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  2. Emotions are a pretty big subject obviously. It also depends on how we’re defining sociopathy. Using the definition M.E. mentioned in an earlier post, a sociopath is one who feels less guilt comparatively speaking. And since I’m being arbitrary (after all, we’re talking about a ‘junk science’ no?), I’ll throw in the lack of a defined sense of self. So if a sociopath is one who feels little guilt for so called moral infractions and doesn’t have a defined sense of self, then it stands to reason that the rest of his/her emotional experience wouldn’t be entirely alien to the “normal” person. In other words, the sociopath has an emotional inner world like the normal does, only with a few very striking differences. Or perhaps the emotional experiences are similar but the cognitive response to said emotions is where the difference comes in… (DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know I’ve made a bad argument in this preceding paragraph. I’m merely speculating here because I haven’t read a whole lot about emotions from a neurological and/or evolutionary perspective.)

    But I definitely agree that some emotions are context driven, meaning the interpretation we give a physiological response defines the emotion. Dreams are a subject I haven’t done any reading on whatsoever so I won’t comment on it.

    And if by waking up we mean seeing reality with greater degrees of clarity, then no, most of us never wake up.

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    1. I actually love this argument, being a sociopath myself, or believe so as it may be. I rarely actually recant my dreams however when I do dream its about an achievement or goal set by myself in which I can control the factors, people, reality in itself subconsciously and biasedly

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  4. Peter Pan

    What are you even saying? Please dont get offended right away, I dont mean it that way, but Im just curious whether you were making a point ?
    Like when you say ( summarized):

    ' brain mixes memory with the nonsensical, outcome: adventure"

    I would like to know in what way are your dreams relevant then?

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  5. I think have to agree that the sociopath emotional level has the same foundations ass the empaths, however, there is an element of control that the sociopath learns early in childhood that I think separates him from the empaths. Sociopaths have emotions, yes, beginning on the chemical level as all do, but the way that our brain reacts to them or interprets our emotions does not allow the emotion to dictate the brain but rather the brain to dictate the emotion. I think this element of control actually increases a sociopaths ability to understand people's emotions and how they are driven by them, and therefore manipulate people who will always lack this control.
    Disney up there is a shining example of a failure at controlling her emotions. That's why she finds it so incomprehensible that a sociopath would want to stay a sociopath. She thinks, as most do, that control of ones emotions is like "Building a wall" or "bottling it all up" or numbing oneself to life's pleasures. On the contrary, the socipath is able to enjoy, feel, love, etc. And these emotions are not deadened by the sociopath having control of them but rather enhanced in their practicality and purpose. Emotions are a useful tool, and when harnessed make life all the more enjoyable. However, when unrestrained, people are dictated by their emotions, and therefore easy to manipulate and exploit. Also very difficult to feel sorry for. WHen people react without thinking to their emotions they're irrational, and uncontrolled. Weak. Disney for example, in just wanting to hug us all and show us love is blinded by her sympathies, compassions, and other such useless but powerful emotions in the empath.

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    1. I was under the assumption that sociopaths don't really experience love or connections to others.

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    2. This started out interesting and then got boring. I thought: "oh, I'm gonna learn something new, " but then it's the same old manipulate, exploit, manipulate, exploit business again. Jasnowflake , you make the mistake of both thinking that ALL empathetic people have no control over their emotions (which is easily disproven by their numerous insightful comments on here), and much more importantly, it shows your profound lack of insight in 2009 as to the many things two people, or a group of people, can do WITH each other, as a team or leaderless group, rather than TO each other. Your wording suggests that you consider yourself the ultimate authority on these subjects, and ultimate arbiter of taste. Your wording allows no room for dissenting opinion or other facts, because in your view, there is / are none. This is your first mistake in this post. You must be a true psychopath because you show a preoccupation with perceived power in interpersonal relationships, while, again, completely disregarding the obvious realities of many true relationships, friendships, and interpersonal interactions that simply do not fit in with your overly simplistic / ficticious, strong/weak, winner/loser, leader/follower, predator/prey, black/white view of the world. (Well, these realities are obvious to those who DON'T care much about power struggles and who AREN'T constantly trying to manipulate / con / cheat / swindle /troll / Rickroll (I'm extemporizing) everyone else at every waking moment, as I assume you must do based upon what you have written here.) Anyway, what I am trying to say is that the world is a more complex place than you appear to perceive, and even the most heavily empathetic people, whom you dub "weak" (and some of whom might actually be weak in some ways that you can comprehend and measure, while strong in ways you will never be able to understand) , can and do make themselves quite useful in the world, although maybe not useful to YOU. This is another thing you will probably never understand : other people and their rationale that motivates them in life. You wrote this in 2009. I hope that by 2015 you have at least learned that your opinion does not automatically become fact, and that other people in the world can, and do, think for themselves.

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  6. As someone who is all too often ruled by emotion, I think it would be great to allow reason to rule for a while. If they made that "so you wanna be a sociopath" pill, I would totally take it...at least during the work week. Maybe it could be like ADD meds. Keep your head focused on the task at hand without being bothered by the emotions when you're trying to work...that would be very productive.

    :-)

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    1. Anti depressants help with that. I was taking too high a dose a long while back and I hardly felt anything. I didn't like that though and dropped the dose.

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  7. jasnowflake said, “Sociopaths have emotions, yes, beginning on the chemical level as all do, but the way that our brain reacts to them or interprets our emotions does not allow the emotion to dictate the brain but rather the brain to dictate the emotion. I think this element of control actually increases a sociopaths ability to understand people's emotions and how they are driven by them, and therefore manipulate people who will always lack this control.”

    Well said. I think the difference, subjectively speaking anyway, could be seen as a detachment from those emotions. The empath is overwhelmed and driven by them. The sociopath is not.

    Disney for example, in just wanting to hug us all and show us love is blinded by her sympathies, compassions, and other such useless but powerful emotions in the empath.

    That is exactly where the liability is. Their attachment to certain emotions does indeed blind them. This can be maladaptive in a social environment composed of other self centered human beings. On the flip side, the sociopath’s innate detachment from those same emotions creates greater clarity, thus allowing him/her to react to the environment as it is. An example of that would be the difference between an idealist and a pragmatist. The former is blinded by what they want to see while the latter sees precisely what’s there to see. This detachment also allows for greater range of movement so to speak, when it comes to decision making. For instance, normals are often constrained by guilt and fear of being socially ostracized, while the sociopath is not, which allows the sociopath to make the kinds of moves the normal never could. This detachment can also show up as a chameleon like quality. The normal is often wedded to a more limited set of behavioral characteristics, while the sociopath is not, thus allowing him/her to move more fluently within a variety of social groups (aka charm and charisma). All of which might in part explain why so many leaders on all levels of society have clearly evinced sociopathic tendencies.

    Thanks jasnowflake. Your last few comments have been most helpful to me. They’ve spurred my own thinking about all of this in a very useful direction.

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  9. what are sociopathic emotions like when they're intoxicated? they are said to lose what rational constraints they have, more easily than empaths lose their emotional inhibitions.

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    1. As for me a few drinks and I stand my ground on whatever plus also passionate about stuff but after I am drunk anything can happen. Spiral out of control easily. It happens like a wave. I go into a night of drinking nervous. then after few drinks I'm fine. this is where the wave goes up.when a long night/day of all craziness you can imagine there is sleep.the wave is creeping down to crash upon me. Waking me to feel ashamed embarrassed and more. a flood of emotions carrying me through what is left of the memories of past craziness make the emotions worse. After that day comes and goes and the hangover is gone. I don't seem to have much guilt embarrassment ect. I am not happy with things I have done but as long as nothing has greatly changed my comfort zone I have put In place I'm fine. So with knowing the answer to the question did I ever really have thoughs emotions or was I just hungover? Or did I feel the emotions and force myself to pass the feelings off as it was a hangover so I wouldn't have to own them?

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  10. alpha belle

    you just take one element from the sociopath's constitution. you like to function better at work being a sociopath? think again: sociopaths often cannot keep a steady job due to for instance their bad impulse control. only high functioning sociopaths are capable to function ( and they usually terrorize their work environment and you being an empath would find little pleasure in that anyhow) at work, but they I think are a minority.

    For the others:

    I do think a lot of normals are victims of their emotions. I think an empath who is pragmatic as you could call it ( or simply balanced and slightly rational) however stands the most chance in this life to achieve satisfaction on multiple levels.

    I could see how sociopaths could dig themselves and their lives. Sure. However to say that sociopaths are just rational and pracmatic, doesnt sound right to me. Why? Cause they are victims of, not their emotions I understand, but definitely their impulses and their need for control. I have seen how it does not serve them well (I do realize they may not suffer from that emotionally ofcourse)

    So than I would pose the question which would be less fortunate: to be governed by emotions or impulses?

    on a final note i would like to say i have never seen a sociopath come close to feeling the same love as empaths. like peter pan said. thats why i have been so interested in knowing more about how sociopaths 'feel' love. but the fact they seem so unwilling/uncapable to talk about that here might actually be an answer in itself.

    and again: no empath or sociopath is exactly the same, so if you find fault in anything i write, try to not be reactive, but explain how and why.

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  11. Disney said, “I do think a lot of normals are victims of their emotions. I think an empath who is pragmatic as you could call it ( or simply balanced and slightly rational) however stands the most chance in this life to achieve satisfaction on multiple levels.”

    The point isn’t who has the most chance to experience satisfaction by comparison; the point is for each of us to create that for ourselves and in our own way. That’s the only way personal satisfaction can be achieved in any event. Comparing myself to some irrational social standard and then saying that I can never experience satisfaction because I don’t and can’t meet said standard is not only a recipe for failure, it isn’t even necessary.

    “So than I would pose the question which would be less fortunate: to be governed by emotions or impulses?”

    This is a false dichotomy. It’s not a matter of either/or, it’s a matter of neither/and. As in, it is not advantageous to be “governed” by emotions or impulses, which are probably the same thing practically speaking anyway. What are impulses, as you seem to be using the term here, but emotions by another name?

    “on a final note i would like to say i have never seen a sociopath come close to feeling the same love as empaths. like peter pan said.”

    I love how you and PP use the word love as authoritatively as you do and then blithely declare what is and isn’t possible for an entire group of people without once bothering to define the term or to demonstrate why you both are right. How on earth do either of you know what you’re saying is true for everyone, empath and sociopath alike? Where’s your proof, other than you and Peter’s personal convictions?

    “thats why i have been so interested in knowing more about how sociopaths 'feel' love. but the fact they seem so unwilling/uncapable to talk about that here might actually be an answer in itself.”

    But why would anyone here talk about how they may or may not experience love if you and PP are going to summarily dismiss whatever they say as impossible in one way or the other using your own rather arbitrary standards?

    Are you trying to have a real discussion here or are you more interested in proving to yourself how right you are?

    When you ask the question about love, are you merely trying to satisfy your curiosity or is there something more?

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  13. daniel birdick

    im not interested in judging anyone. i have been comparing and saying it isnt the same. i never said either way of experiencing is better or superior. im not gonna make anyone explain anything they dont feel like. all im saying is i would be interested in reading someone's thoughts on this subject who has thought longer about it than the time an ejaculation takes.

    impulses and emotions are not the samet. an impulse is mainly reactive. an emotion is a state ( upon which most people tend to react quite quickly)

    then again the impulse must relate( be triggered by) to a need which you could then say is a feeling/emotion. and here we are again realizing its just the sociopaths stunted emotions vs the empaths deeper felt emotions. sheesh.

    anywho my idea is nobody needs to governed by emotions or impulses. i just see sociopaths have more difficulty controlling their impulses and empaths controlling their emotions.

    thoughts?

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  14. peter pan

    you sound so one dimensional ( not judging you at all: just registering this) that i wonder what you are doing on this blog. care to enlighten me?

    no offense!! ( but im sure none taken)

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  16. pp

    i dont really care who is or isnt a sociopath but to at least know whether they think they fit into any antisocial category is sort of handy for discussion sake, or else i might aswell go talk to myself about these things.

    maybe youre not so onedimensional. never mind. not important.

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  18. i enjoy unveiling the soul layer per layer.
    antisocials supposedly dont have one.

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  20. There you go again. LOL. Arguing by fiat. It’s true and right because you say it’s true and right and anyone who disagrees with you is… well… wrong. Why are we crazy narcissists wrong? Because by golly you say so, that’s why! (And you call me a narcissist!) Let me ‘splain:

    “You're forgetting that an inability to experience love is one of the key traits of being a sociopath. It's inherently tied to empathy. Sociopaths are, by definition, excluded.”

    Really? It is? According to whom? Robert Hare? Martha Stout? Hervey Cleckley? The American Psychiatric Association who excluded the term sociopath right out of the DSM IV? Or the World Health Organization who did likewise in their ICD-10? You forgot to cite the peer reviewed studies or the extensive research you are using to back up your declarations about what IS TRUE BY DEFINITION. All that certainty has to come from somewhere, no?

    “That's not a personal conviction.”

    It’s not? You’re saying what something is or isn’t and declaring what must be and must not be true without any evidence whatsoever or without explaining your reasons. From what other place could you be arguing from but personal conviction? That’s fine of course. It’s your prerogative. But let’s not pretend that’s it’s something else though.

    “I would, however, call your crusade to redefine the term sociopath a personal conviction.”

    I am on a crusade? Really? News to me. I’d think that crusading would be more fun… Well maybe I’m not having as much fun with my crusade because I’m not trying very hard to convince you or anyone else here of… anything. Ok, who are we kidding? I’m not trying at all. Well, it could be because THERE ISN’T AN OBJECTIVELY PROVEN AND TRUE DEFINITION of the term sociopath as of yet, which puts a damper on the whole redefinition crusade doesn’t it? As I said before and will say again just for shits and giggles, how can you redefine something that hasn’t been defined clearly, cogently and objectively to begin with? Or maybe it’s my utter lack of strong feelings about defining or redefining a pejorative term anyway. It would be like black people trying to argue with white people about the “true definition” of the pejorative nigger. “Wait, by definition niggers don’t do A, B, C!” “Well maybe they do…” “No they don’t!!!” “How do you know?” “Because… well because I say so!” “Oh! If you put it like that…” It’s kinda nonsensical if looked at that way, isn’t it Pete?

    “You meet all the criteria for NPD, yet only a few for being a sociopath. In all the places where you differ from true sociopaths, you claim that the definition is wrong.”

    I do? I did? When and where? Talking to you is like to talking to my preacher father. You both are so clear about what’s real. And your argumentation is as flawless as his. Speaking of flaws, you were thoughtful enough to say…

    “Your logic is critically flawed.”

    It is? Why do tell! Oh wait, you didn’t. You presented no evidence, you didn’t bother to back up your claims and you resorted to vaguely personal insults. Yeah, that was a fine piece of logical refutation, I must say.

    “Your ‘sociopathic traits’ are NPD diagnostic criteria. The denial that has you so deluded that you can't see that is also very typical.”

    Well I must confess, it IS all about M.E.

    “I'm sorry you're offended by the occasional dose of reality, but that's really not my problem.”

    Thank you for that heartwarming apology. I accept it in the spirit with which it was given Peter. And it’s also a load off of my narcissistic mind to know that I am not your problem. Whew! Man that kept me up at night! I welcome you to label me in whatever way you find most conducive to your own sense of… whatever. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have more rational and less reactive people to interact with, which ironically enough, includes Disney. YAY!!!

    When you're ready to speak rationally and calmly, get back to me. Otherwise, I won't be doing this again.

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  22. Disney said, “all im saying is i would be interested in reading someone's thoughts on this subject who has thought longer about it than the time an ejaculation takes.”

    LOL. Nice.

    “here we are again realizing its just the sociopaths stunted emotions vs the empaths deeper felt emotions. sheesh.”

    Are we now? The sociopath’s stunted emotions vs. the empaths deeper felt emotions huh? I’ll just let that one slide. No more useless ‘debate’ for me this afternoon. I’ve got some errands to run.

    “anywho my idea is nobody needs to governed by emotions or impulses. i just see sociopaths have more difficulty controlling their impulses and empaths controlling their emotions.

    thoughts?”


    Well I mean, I suppose I agree with you. Maybe. Tell me, how are you defining the terms sociopath and empath? What precisely do you mean by them? And no, I’m not looking for anything objective at this point. I’m asking you to define the terms from your own point of view. That way, I can tell you whether or not I agree with this last statement or not.

    You say you’re here to learn. Ok. Hows that working out for ya? LOL. Seriously, what, if anything, have you learned so far?

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  23. I have to agree withg Daniel here, Peter Pan. Explain to us what love is, why it has to be tied to empathy, and how everyone expereriences love exactly the same or it isn't love. By all means, give us a definition to refute, and i assure you I'll refute it.

    I assure you I am quite capable of love. But I imagine we have varying definitions of such an emotion. What is love to you, and I'll tell you what love is to a sociopath.

    As soon as you answer this question, however, you of course understand that you'll be in danger of actually being proven wrong, and would no longer be able to hang onto the idea that your right because you said so. Perhaps why you and disney seem to refuse to address this question as it's been brought up repeatedly.

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    1. No one is in danger of being proven wrong. You're just confused. Like you said, two different kinds of "love". I assure you that you are not capable of actually having the love that NON psychopaths do. Your argument is all about semantics. You're going "no, I do love, I have (thing that isn't even your version of love here) it, and I'll prove you wrong when we talk." it's as dumb to me as going "No, I do have a couch, but you call it a chair".

      I can't define love absolutely, it's just deep feelings and caring. I can say what some like to do or act on love though.

      The love you're talking about is probably like the love for an object, no one is talking about non-psychopath love for humans when they say they really love that thing_here, and cry over it when they lose it, etc... it isn't exactly like the love for an object, cos humans can be appreciated even more than objects can, but yeah. The kind of love I'm on about is the kind the author of Sociopath World mentioned, "selfish" love. both psychopaths and non psychopaths are capable of this, but you aren't capable of the other kind of love us non psychopaths feel, by the description of psychopathy.

      Maybe you're wrong and you just THINK you experience what WE are talking about :) or again, maybe you're taking a power trip from semantics and words.

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  25. Lol. Alright, fine Peter. Perhaps Disney can tell me what she thinks love is.

    Or maybe I'll just tell you what you guys think it is. Won't this be fun.

    Love is having someone that you need in your life to be with you to make you feel like all the bad things about you are ok. All the worst things you think and feel about yourself are things this person knows, and they still love you anyway. And all the sweet things you thought a person should be when you were growing up are the things this person is or does. So you feel secure with them and feel like you fit together perfectly, right? This person is your other half and complements you in every way. You hate doing dishes, and they don't mind doing them, and so on to larger scale faults that match each other.

    Am I right? Is this love?

    Is that how you see it?

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    1. that's the feel-good part for YOU. HA. I KNEW you would describe nothing but that!

      You lack the other half. Just face it and quit whining and trying to "prove people wrong". they have no reason to claim you can't feel the love they are on about, they get no benefit from it, no one is sitting around denying it on purpose. Like I said... kinda like the love for an object (best compared to love for sentimental objects?) except yeah.. it's a human you're loving on so it will be different and more in depth.

      Just trust that you don't know what we're talking about. Think of it as a different emotion or something that you don't experience. Sure, that's called a kind of love, but plenty of psychopaths know that it's different from the love non psychopaths have for some people because they can't relate to what they speak of, or the caring about them, etc.

      They even have a name for it. Selfish love.
      Yours is the kind of love that some people have when they beg people to stay for them and want to kill them for example if they don't, or do something to them in revenge. Since they're hurting you by leaving, etc, you don't get to have them, yada yada. I'm not saying you'd kill em, just that people who DO do that have the same kind of love (or maybe they are one of those obsessed people who dont even know the person and theyre a stalker? but thats not what I mean, clearly).

      Don't get mad at me, it's just that you're not getting it. I have no reason to pretend or tell myself that you don't feel the kind of love most others can feel. You seem very convinced you are right.. but you aren't... what I said makes complete sense though, even if you cant know the love non psychopaths have, no? you may just say Im wrong anyway to keep saying we're wrong.

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  28. Of course Peter Pan wouldn't know how to define/describe love. He wouldn't even know where to begin. He's not just a lost boy, he's a little boy lost.

    And Disney, you sound like a right-wing ideologue cloaked in the moral supremacy of the left. You're incredibly mistaken as to many things, including PP's identity. He is using your bigotry to try (rather transparently) to mess with others. If he is not a "sociopath," as he would like to think/define the term, it is a distinction without a difference.

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  30. I don't understand why empaths who've not even described what they think love is are asking a bunch of sociopaths, then saying they are wrong without their 'correct' answer. What kind of question is 'What is love?'. That's like 'What is the meaning of life?'
    Disney you complain about sociopaths constantly on this site being exploiters and takers, yet you contribute nothing but questions and judgements on the answers on this forum. You say your goal is to look into the layers of people's souls.So how would that goal be met by people you claim have no souls? I don't believe your goals are what you claim they are.

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    1. No one wants to tell you evil prices of Shit what love is because you will only use the information to persuade a human being "your victim" that your one of them. You think because your clear headed and lack emotion that your some how more clairvoyant? That you know something we don't? You don't know Shit. You don't feel. All of you are a waist of breathe. your not human therefore you will always lose because your two ignorant and incapable of seeing the big picture. Your all fucking parasites

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    2. you don't know what anyone else feels because you're not clairvoyant either. Everything you just said is pure conjecture. Also contractions, buddy, contraction.

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  32. As an empath, you find love to be personally indefineable because it's too profound a thing for your emotionally driven brain to comprehend. You haven't even mastered happiness to comprehend that fully, how can you be expected to understand love?

    Or, you're too insecure to understand what love is and are so busy seeking someone to make you feel better about yourself that you've never found someone to truly love. And so you can't explain it because you can't yet understand it being in too emotionally weak a place in your development.

    That's not necessarily a sociopathic vs empathic thing, either. That's just a weak person vs a strong person. You feel love as a high school student does by comparison because that's all you can achieve as it sits. So explaining love to me would sound like some silly high school student describing love to an 80yr old in true love. That's why none of you will answer an objective question such as this with your own opinions.

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    1. omg, this is a bullshit argument. JUST ACCEPT THAT YOU DONT FEEL THE LOVE THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, THIS IS CLEARLY ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, AND YOU CLEARLY HAVEN'T READ THE "SELFISH LOVE" POST, IM SORRY, THATS ALL YOU HAVE. IT JUST HAS THE SAME NAME BUT TWO DIFFERENT THINGS XD. SHEESH. THATS NOT ALL LOVE IS BRO.

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  37. Today's Headlines:

    Peter Pan Takes Exctasy

    Jasnow Defines Love As Useful

    Thunderball Blamed For Empathy Poisoning

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  38. peter pan
    youre a loose cannon.

    everyone:

    yeah we cant define love or life here. its just a blog. BUT we can write down some less abstract thoughts on this subject and compare notes and sort of see how we think so different in some area's and how that is about and why. that was my point all along. when you try to make it abstract on this blog at least the discussion WILL go to waste. ive seen that happen a couple of times. everyone will just hide behind words. I read now from several people that theyre waiting for my view on this so here we go:

    what do i think love is:

    -feeling tied to that person and loving that
    -sharing everything you see/live with that person: with someone you actually care about seeing everything you see
    -getting physical with that person time and time again and it just keeps feeling better ( because the attachment grows) and on multiple levels and it also reinforces the bond on other levels.
    -having a good buddy ( and that entails a lot!) all the time who can deal with all the facets of your personality and the other way around ofcourse
    -i could say more but lets leave it simple and digestible for now, i mean i could throw in terms like patience and understanding and being very caring etc but i think that is the basis of any relationship so those temrs should be redundant here, although i realize this basis might be exactly what lacks in most sociopaths relationships ( correct me if m wrong)

    BUT most importantly:
    the outcome of love in my opinion is that both persons flourish. in my opinion if that lacks than its not the real deal.

    and Daniel: I just dont see the point in defining the terms sociopath, empath etc. where would it take us. im fine with using O'Hare's definition for all I care. I think we have a pretty good idea where sociopaths/empaths differ. We know well enough to be able to have a discussion but it still is handy to know from which perspective something is written. since i am interested in the idea of sociopaths not having a soul ( supposedly) and still thinking they know/feel love. Which is possible, cause we apparantly all have different ways of defining it. I would think ( just speculating) that a sociopath would first have to control some tendencies of defining it by what they have HEARD about the subject from books, lovers etc instead of going inside and seeing what kind goes on there ( and I expect that last sentence to feel rather foreign correct?)

    aight
    go for it

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  39. Disney said, “I just dont see the point in defining the terms sociopath, empath etc. where would it take us.”

    It may not take us anywhere, but it would take me into the land of accuracy. I like knowing what I’m actually responding to rather than assume I know what you’re talking about. It’s helpful for me in that way, which I further assume you agree with when you write,

    “it still is handy to know from which perspective something is written.”

    But cool. We’ll move on.

    “since i am interested in the idea of sociopaths not having a soul ( supposedly) and still thinking they know/feel love.”

    And if the so called sociopath doesn’t believe in such things as souls?

    “I would think ( just speculating) that a sociopath would first have to control some tendencies of defining it by what they have HEARD about the subject from books, lovers etc instead of going inside and seeing what kind goes on there ( and I expect that last sentence to feel rather foreign correct?)”

    Ok. I don’t get what you’re saying here. Literally. Can you say it differently?

    You say you here to learn how sociopaths (or people who think they are) think. Alright. What have you learned so far?

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  40. Birdick

    you said: "Ok. I don’t get what you’re saying here. Literally. Can you say it differently?"

    thats what i meant with it might sound foreign to you. anyhow i was saying it might be hard for a sociopath to describe love from his or her point of view, truly, meaning coming from a place inside, authentically. meaning not a somewhat exact repetition of something read in a book, or something said by a former lover. and ofcourse all of our thoughts and feelings are combinations of things picked up in the past too, however COMBINED with our own sense of self is where you get your own authentic ideas and feelings of love from. but you see what im doing now is making the mistake of directing you towards something, you should just express what love is to you regardless i suppose.

    what have learned so far....its not that much. also i wonder why it would interest you. what i chose to pick from here at the end of the day has to do more with what I find interesting and useful myself and is quite subjective.

    now care to react with your own observations, if possible? i have done so.

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  41. Disney said, “anyhow i was saying it might be hard for a sociopath to describe love from his or her point of view, truly, meaning coming from a place inside, authentically… and ofcourse all of our thoughts and feelings are combinations of things picked up in the past too, however COMBINED with our own sense of self is where you get your own authentic ideas and feelings of love from.”

    When you get a spare moment, peruse thru my comments about the sense of self:
    http://www.sociopathworld.com/2009/05/sexuality-and-sociopathy.html

    Along with these 2 posts:

    http://www.sociopathworld.com/2009/06/sociopaths-flexible-sense-of-self.html &
    http://www.sociopathworld.com/2009/06/reader-responds-talented-mr-ripley.html

    Sorry, but I don’t feel like repeating what I’ve already written about elsewhere. If your request hinges on an “authentic sense of self” (which I believe is an oxymoron and you’ll see why if you read the above links)… well I don’t know.

    “what have learned so far....its not that much. also i wonder why it would interest you. what i chose to pick from here at the end of the day has to do more with what I find interesting and useful myself and is quite subjective.”

    Which is precisely why I am curious.

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  42. birdick

    i wouldnt wanna waste my time repeating either so thanks for the links.
    ive read them. its an ontological discussion. i have many thoughts about it but we will not get anywhere.

    we need to look at what works for our constitution. so what kind of love works for yours. ive given answers to the questions posted (whether it was what people wanted to read or not) so: the other thread please.

    yeah daniel im curious about your issues with religion too and how it seems to be all about that with you all the time and how you sound in many posts just like me and i wonder how you can be a sociopath or whether i am one then, i fucking dig the hell out of cheesecake and brilliant acting to. shit like that. utterly pointless.

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  43. mistake, daniel you just got your very own post right above this one. it was ofocurse mine: disney

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  44. birdick

    when i said 'other thread please' i see i was referring to my piece on love earlier on THIS thread. however i did do a post for you on the other thread you didnt reply to. so i was delusional ( since you love that: marx' opium for the people must be one of your fav's)

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  45. Ok. I am thoroughly confused. LOL. Disney, Daniel, Daniel Birdick… What’s with all the D’s? I’ll just respond to what’s written and let the chips fall where they may. (Like I have a choice…)

    “its an ontological discussion. i have many thoughts about it but we will not get anywhere.”

    We have differing views on the value of asking the big questions. In my mind, dealing with ontology is extremely important. For me, worldviews have to be coherent and whole. I can’t do patchwork beliefs. They create a cognitive dissonance that I have to resolve. Which for me means that issues like love, sociopathy, psychology, philosophy, religion and personal identity all relate to each other. Each subject informs the other in my brain. And since what you believe is true will inevitably inform your actions, which in turn help to create the life you experience…

    I studied religion because I wanted answers to the big questions. What I discovered was that it was almost entirely, with very few exceptions, delusional. Then I looked around in philosophy and some psychology and noticed the same kinds of delusional thinking patterns pervading those subjects as well. If you ask questions like 'why' and ‘is this true’ long enough, you inevitably see through a whole world of lies masquerading as truth and common sense. Reason’s where it’s at because reason’s the only belief system that delivers results consistently and it comes equipped with its own means of distinguishing between truth claims, or in other words, its own bullshit detector.

    And when you’ve seen thru enough bullshit, you look around and you notice that people are nothing more than scared little animals, using the big brains evolution gave them to keep away their existential fears of death and futility. The levers with which to manipulate their emotions, and thus them, then become all too clear.

    “since you love that: marx' opium for the people must be one of your fav's”

    Well… He did hit the nail on the head with that one, if nothing else.

    Now, onto your “obsession” with sociopaths and love. Ok, so it’s not an obsession per se, but you almost always come round to asking about it in one form or the other. Why? Why on earth is this of such interest to you? Did you read M.E.’s post on just this question back on January 29? Since you’ve said that you don’t care to get into the whole “who’s really a sociopath and who isn’t” game (and I agree that in the end and for the purposes of this blog, it doesn’t matter), I take it you accept that M.E. is a sociopath. He’s saying yes, he loves, ergo it is possible for sociopaths to love. He then goes on to describe what that feels like. Does the answer he gives in that post satisfy your curiosity? I could be so wrong, but I keep getting this feeling that you’re being disingenuous about all of this talk of wanting to know how sociopaths experience love. Perhaps not with me, but with yourself… What would you gain from every single commenter here explaining their experience of love? And don’t say it’s about examining souls and what not because I don’t buy it.

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  46. i have the same big questions as you. you wont know everything ever. so why not make it ( the questions) beneficial and meaningful ( or work) for just you. religion is NLP and when it works it works. when you cant believe in programming yourself ( although any upbringing good or bad is the succesful result of NLP really) you will need to look for something else. there is no truth and no reality apart from (but again that is just my vision) the wisdom of your body. my brain will trick me endlessly, my body wont.

    anywho i read that post, its kinda insightful. but it immediately raises the questions:
    - why on earth a sociopath wouldnt want to have exactly those feelings carry on for as long as possible. because it isnt possible when one is wearing a mask to obtain the object of affection. and for the maskholder it will just be a matter of time until its own mask will become utterly boring to him/herself and will have to shed it and along with that automatically the ' love' will go down the drain alongside the mask. Answer: dont wear a mask. Question: can a sociopath than, without the mask, still experience that 'love', in that way? Or maybe I should ask can a sociopath do without the 'love' long enough to get his object of affection when he or she will have to be more patient to attract bees to his real honey ( his unmasked self)

    And with mask in this context i mean the personality ME describes to adopt to gain the 'love'.

    This interests me to the core.

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  47. Disney said, “religion is NLP...”

    Good analogy. I agree.

    “there is no truth and no reality apart from (but again that is just my vision) the wisdom of your body. my brain will trick me endlessly, my body wont.”

    I’m going to show some restraint and not engage you on this point. Who’da thunk it? I too can change. LOL

    As to your other questions, I’d suggest you write M.E. an email since others haven’t been as forthcoming as you’d like. He’ll very likely respond. I’m not in a good position to dialogue about this because from your perspective, you believe there’s a person there, something ‘real’ underneath the mask. As far as I can see, there is no such beast. ‘It’s turtles all the way down!’ I believe this is true for all of us. Your questions/sought after answers appear to hinge on this point. As an example (and yes, to bring up religion yet again) an atheist isn’t in the best of positions to speak sincerely about god’s love for humanity, as if god were real. As far as I’m concerned, the self is as illusory as god/Yahweh/Allah/Christ. In my mind, we are everything, which is the same thing as saying we are nothing. "We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world." Tyler Durden, 'Fight Club'. See why I'm not the best one to ask about this? LOL

    “This interests me to the core.”

    You’ve been clear about that. You’ve just not been clear about why.

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  48. daniel

    you drive me mad.

    the masks you wear in order to fit in with the surroundings. sociopaths wear them more often cause they deviate more from the masses. correct? the hypothetical question i ask: what if someone WOULD "love" the sociopath even without any mask. even if there is nothing beyond the mask. what do you think about that?!

    your question:WHY?
    -why do YOU want to know this of all things? WHY?

    and you should truly call yourself agnostic, how can you deny something's existence when you simply DONT KNOW. THAT is illogical. but whatever not important.

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  49. Disney said, “you drive me mad.”

    And that’s a short drive too! (kidding)

    “your question:WHY?
    -why do YOU want to know this of all things? WHY?”


    Because you are so bloody relentless with this question, that’s why! LOL To be so determined that you bring virtually all of your comments here back to this one thing must mean that you have some kind of personal interest. I want to know what that is.

    Here’s my latest theory: perhaps you suspect you are a sociopath and wonder if admitting this to yourself means that you will also be unloved… Do you want a convincing answer to that question perhaps?

    Another theory: are you in love with someone who you suspect is a sociopath and wonder if he/she can ever return those feelings? Maybe it’s not a romantic partner. Maybe it’s a parent. Perhaps you think mom/dad is a sociopath and you wonder if he/she loved you or if it was even possible for them to love you…

    “the hypothetical question i ask: what if someone WOULD ‘love’ the sociopath even without any mask. even if there is nothing beyond the mask. what do you think about that?!”

    I think that if someone feels affection for, romantic feelings for, and cares for someone they think is a sociopath then they better be prepared to accept he/she for what they are. I’d say they should not just accept it, but embrace and even celebrate it. I think it would be the only way that person could be at peace within that relationship.

    and you should truly call yourself agnostic, how can you deny something's existence when you simply DONT KNOW. THAT is illogical. but whatever not important.

    I am once again showing restraint… No long post in response to this particular sentence… I’ll be good…

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  50. well daniel youre pretty relentless yourself. you wont answer my question either. why do you care?

    my theory is that sociopaths have an emptiness inside. they do. they wanna connect but they know they cannot. they look for the connection in ways that are not accepted in society. something like that. i could go on and on but i shall show restraint too.

    btw restraint about agnosticism/atheism on a blog?!

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  51. birdick

    you said ( plus i said hehe):

    “the hypothetical question i ask: what if someone WOULD ‘love’ the sociopath even without any mask. even if there is nothing beyond the mask. what do you think about that?!”

    I think that if someone feels affection for, romantic feelings for, and cares for someone they think is a sociopath then they better be prepared to accept he/she for what they are. I’d say they should not just accept it, but embrace and even celebrate it. I think it would be the only way that person could be at peace within that relationship."

    you see, im not interested in the perspective of someone in a relationship with a sociopath. i truly am not. so my question above still stands. you answered it not from the sociopathic standpoint...

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  53. Disney said, “well daniel youre pretty relentless yourself. you wont answer my question either. why do you care?”

    Because I suddenly find it fascinating that you, a self proclaimed empath (thus ‘normal’) would come onto the blog of a self proclaimed sociopath (thus non-normal) and ask him and the commenters, several of whom are self proclaimed sociopaths (or schizoids or Asperger’s Syndrome sufferers or narcissists or sorry souls or whatever anonymous commenter of the minute ‘diagnosis’s’ us as) about their experience of love. Any normal worth her salt KNOWS that sociopaths don’t experience love! They are (or should I say we?), as you said you heard, soulless creatures, hell bent on destroying all of you innocent and law abiding normals and everything you stand for!!! We will rape you, behead your husbands, have your babies for dinner and your pets for dessert, and then piss on all of you just for good measure. What could they/we possibly know about the exalted state of love? (Facetiousness alert)

    And yet here you are, wanting, almost begging to know what/if a sociopath experiences love. I find that most curious. Why do I care? I have an insatiable curiosity, what can I tell ya?

    “my theory is that sociopaths have an emptiness inside. they do. they wanna connect but they know they cannot. they look for the connection in ways that are not accepted in society. something like that.”

    I can’t possibly see it that way since I think everyone is empty inside. Normals believe in a host of things (with emotional states attached) that perhaps the sociopath doesn’t.

    Or not.

    “btw restraint about agnosticism/atheism on a blog?!”

    What can I say? I’m the son of a preacher man. It’s in my blood to talk ad nauseum about THE BIG STUFF. As it is, I believe I write the longest comments on average here! You said several things that the rationalist in me wanted to dissect, but I figured, why bother? You don’t care and neither does anyone else. It’s all good.

    “you see, im not interested in the perspective of someone in a relationship with a sociopath. i truly am not. so my question above still stands. you answered it not from the sociopathic standpoint...”

    You tell your story and I’ll tell you mine.

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  54. Birdick

    This post makes me ponder death. If youve seen death happen upclose I doubt whether you would still think people are all that empty.

    Thanks for your post. Too bad you dont want to answer a simple question, but Ill respect it.

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  55. Disney said, “Thanks for your post.”

    And thank you for playing. Because from where I’m sitting, you are and have been, playing some kind of game.

    So far, your commentary ‘history’ on this blog has been one characterized by changing the goal posts, warning empaths against the ‘dangers’ of getting too close to sociopaths, shooting off missives on the inevitably sad end of the sociopath in one thread while playing the patient commenter in another, saying you don’t want to put people in boxes and then turning right around and suggesting that we all take a sociopath curing pill should one ever be created to be less ‘anti-social’, all the while claiming to be empathic and that you’re only here to understand souls and what not. The contradictions are becoming too obvious. And I’m back to my “lab specimen” analogy. You want me to reveal my personal thoughts about something like love, while you remain completely unwilling to share your own personal reasons for asking the question to begin with, besides some vague bullshit about souls to another commenter. You want to study the people’s answers here for a reason entirely your own while you remain aloof and uninvolved. Sadly, playing your test subject is not a role I wish to play.

    I don’t get it. The game aspect is hard for me to understand or ‘empathize’ with. Why on earth would I come to a little known blog whose subject is ostensibly a psychiatric ‘disorder’ and play verbal games with people I don’t know and never will? I see no gain in that for me. I know there’s the whole ego thing (where people need to prove things to themselves in any way they can, using comments on a blog if necessary) and although I understand that intellectually, I don’t emotionally get it. That’s why I normally don’t get involved in the so called word battles some of the other commenters play. Of course I’ll occasionally debate and yes, I’ll get polemical as my last comment to PP demonstrated. But I usually don’t bother. Alas, I ignored my instincts and engaged you in a conversation. My initial reaction to you was apparently on point. More’s the pity.

    “Too bad you dont want to answer a simple question, but Ill respect it.”

    And so will I for you. Have fun!

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  56. Daniel Birdick

    There are no contradictions; youre trying to label me and it cannot be done. Dont punish me for it. Im not punishing you nor am I labelling you, or at the very least I am trying hard to not do this.

    I HAVE for one shared my own personal thought on the subject I have been asking you questions about. Read back and stop fooling yourself like I have been playing games.

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  57. Birdick

    I still dont understand your post. Why are we on this blog. To comment on eachother, think about stuff and such, correct? Not to be talking about 'deeper reasons' to be here, whether present or not. Why cant you give me your view on something that I myself indeed have elaborated on. I simply do not get that. You seem to feel like you have been part of some type of game. Well you were not. But me saying that will probably have an opposite effect anyhow. Too bad, i did enjoy your thought process.

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  58. Birdick

    Ive been thinking about what youve said and reading some more threads on this blog. Like the self awareness one. I identify with the whole thread quite a bit. If Im a sociopath, I must be a high functioning female one. Cause my goals are different but my means are somewhat similar. I just simply dont know. What can I tell you. Slowly but surely the term sociopath got to me because apparantly I was reading into stuff that always ended up with that term somewhere. But Im still not sure. But maybe thats because of the underexposure on the female side of it. I do feel empathy for people. I think. I feel bad if someone who I find worthwhile would get hurt and is left without arms so to speak. But I can switch my feelings to zero very easily on people I lose respect for or simply bore me/dont interest me or worse I view as nothing. But I do try to then not think about that to long cause that feeling does disturb me a bit. I do not like doing things for people. At all. Unless it ofcourse rewards me instantly. I am very skilled in making people feel ridiculously special or good about themselves quite easily and I do really enjoy making em feel like that. I genuinely enjoy that. Although when I feel like they are like wax in my hands I also lose respect OR i have to try hard not to abuse the sense of power I have. Lately I have been doing good in that department. But it makes me feel soooo bored. But using my skills makes me feel just as bored. Maybe bored isnt the right word, since I am always busy. Dull is a better word.I do know what being scared is. It however rarely blocks me from doing something. I am interested in the questions I posed about love. Whether they be viewed as coming from a female sociopathic stance or an empaths stance, I wouldnt know. Its very hard to see yourself correctly. I feel like I am different in this area ( love). I have longings in this area that do seem to go deeper than the average sociopath on this site, but then again they are male. I think generally one would expect borderlinish traits in love from a sociopathic woman? I dont really show em. Arent I supposed to have a stare? Men have often told me how my flashy eyes seduced them. FLashy eyes. Doesnt really sound like a stare to me. I do observe the hell out of people if I see something peculiar or worthwhile in. If not, social contacts go just too smooth for me truly.

    What else is there to say. I could go on and on like this. Does this satisfy your need for understanding why I am here? I wouldnt know why it matters though. I still wanna understand more on the love topic. I cant seem to get it anywhere else. But its all no more than some fun pastimes here really.

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  59. and btw that post on bullying the bully...
    I have a long trackrecord of going after( unmasking, disarming, dissecting, annoying) the biggest bully ( or any person with seeming yet undeserved popularity) and I never bullied the people the bully would bully. Didnt even enter my head. What for heaven's sake would be the point.

    What does this make me: a sociopath or someone who simply cannot take "injustice"? I feel uncomfortable with either.

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  60. Since Im the only one on here Ill just continue.
    Nah I cant be a sociopath. I hardly ever lie. And that is the number one character trait. Also I can be sentimental. So forget it.

    So you see what you made me do BIrdick? Rambling. No point. Lets just stick to clear conversations about something in particular.

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  62. LOL. Oh pity’s sake people, even I have a life. You know, family, activities, and yes, even work every so often requires me to pay attention. Hence, the drop out of this particular conversation.

    But, I did mean what I said in my last comment. If I get the feeling that I’ve moved from interesting conversation to yet another ego game then yeah Petey’s right, I drop out of the conversation. Take that any way you like, it makes no difference to me. I shared my thinking on that above and well… ‘nuff said.

    Moving on. Disney, it occurred to me that if you were a smart sociopath you’d make up what you thought was a plausible sounding motivation to appease me so that I in turn will answer you the way you wanted. For all I know the comments you left above are nothing more than an interesting smokescreen. If it is… well I’d be somewhat impressed. If not… well I appreciate your willingness to be honest. Either way, I’ll never know. But you have appeared to give your reasons for wanting to know how a sociopath experiences love (because for a moment you thought you might be one yourself) and so I in turn will appear to give you my own inner experience of love. All we have our appearances in any event, no? We’ll assume for the purposes of this conversation that I am indeed a sociopath and you are indeed an empath since we both agree an official diagnosis isn’t relevant either way.

    My experience of love… Well, I assume that I love my mother. I have what I think of as feelings of affection for her. Also I care for my nieces and nephews, especially when they were younger and more innocent. They hadn’t been jaded yet, although one niece in particular has suffered much in her 11 years at the hands of my darling and narcissistic sister and is thus halfway Jadesville already. I enjoy the company of my mother and niece. We talk. We laugh. I often imagine myself crying uncontrollably a their funerals should my mother or niece die unexpectedly, although I’m fairly certain I won’t. I’m like you Disney in that I can turn off emotions (except anger) fairly effortlessly. I used to trust my mother implicitly (and by trust I mean believe that she’d always be there for me and had my best interests at heart, etc). But I learned the hard way that my trust was misplaced. Then I learned that trust in any person, in the sense I’m using the word, is always misplaced. People are people. In the end, we all do what we believe we must, even if that means others that we say we love must suffer. So it was with my mother. I still love her though, as in, I still feel positively towards her and would try to be there for her (unless her requests crossed my own desires/priorities, in which case, she’s SOL). I just don’t trust her. My niece is a child and so expecting a teenager to be there for me is doubly absurd. Although I have many “acquaintances” I have only one person who qualifies as a friend. I do like her. We talk a lot. We laugh a lot. She tells me many things about her life and I listen attentively. Yet I do not trust her. I will never tell her about this sociopath tendency business.

    Gosh darnit, that was indeed horribly shallow, wasn’t it? LOL

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  64. Birdick

    Thanks for your response. Appreciated.
    Do I take your piece above as having absolutely no experience with love in an adult relationship? You must have chosen not to talk about that here then. Must be, since it was clear I was constantly referring to the relationship ( male/female or whatever your choice) type of love, yet you dont mention that at all.
    I could say all sorts of things here but I would just again be giving you direction and hey it means to you what it means to you, if I wanted an opinion specifically designed for my ears I wouldnt be here.

    Btw I have the same with anger too.

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  65. Peter Pan/Birdick

    "You didn't provide any insight whatsoever into how your mother makes you feel"

    He sort of did, but I agree it didnt go very deep. BUT when he doesnt feel it any deeper than that, hasnt he than given the complete answer...?

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  67. PP

    He noticed his niece suffered.Thats empathy. Seriously, picking apart words at that level is ridic.

    Also PP what was your closest feeling towards love that you would be able to define for yourself? Take your mom and a relationship.

    Shallow or deep this is a subject alsmost any person thinks about at least once in their lives.

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  69. Well PP you dont take your own notes seriously apparantly:
    Where is the deep examination on love in your post?
    You dont think youd care much if she died. Imagine putting her in a coffin. Or having a last conversation with her. I dont know whatever helps trying to resurrect something in your gut.

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  72. PP
    Where is the deep examination on love on your post?

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  73. PP

    Oh I see it was in the deleted post. LOL. Now can we please go back to the topic of LUV.

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  74. I am serious about wanting to examine the things Ive said. If you DB or PP are not interested that is ok. Just say the word and Ill be done here.

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  75. I apologize again for being behind, but I got bored of reading the back and foreth of Disney and Daniel. No offense to either of you.

    But I've decided I want to define love here, because it is a subject I am actually passionate about, and you all have an idiotic idea of what love is to a sociopath... By you all I mean the Disney characters. So i'm going to actually tell you all something true.

    I actually find your defintion to be a trite skim across the top of what love is. You describe a friend who can put up with you.

    "i mean i could throw in terms like patience and understanding and being very caring etc but i think that is the basis of any relationship so those temrs should be redundant here, although i realize this basis might be exactly what lacks in most sociopaths relationships ( correct me if m wrong)"

    And that was just retardedly condescending.

    Understanding is the key to love. You have to know all facets and be able to understand them and how and why, which makes love between two similar people. A sociopath can, than, by this theory fall in love because the sociopath has a very good understanding of the hows and whys of the human psyche.

    A key element of love is also respect. You cannot care about someone you do not respect because the relationship will turn into a control experiment and end with one party disgusted by the other. I've mentioned this before with sociopaths being unable to fall in love with empaths because they are easy to manipulate and we don't respect their emotional dependancy. It's weak.

    And also, a key element to love is not "Buddyship" but actual friendship. Love is full disclosure to an unimagineable extreme. Love is being able to share absolutely everything with your partner and eliminating all necessity for lies and or shame. Another case where similarity is a good thing because similar opinions promote disclosure of them.

    I believe when falling in love it's good to find someone so similar to yuorself that you love the other person more than you actually love yourself. And I'm sorry but this is where empaths fake it. No empath puts people before themself half as much as they say they do. And if they do, it's because it makes them feel good about themself that they did it so it's selfishly motivated. In love, nothing is selfishly motivated, and everything is completely mutual.

    That is to say that in love, real love, the person is not just close to you but an extension of yourself. Hence the over used term, "my other half." Love is two people functioning mutually and towards the smae goal, therefore enhancing each other. Therefore you can of course see here the practicality of love. There is a personal gain for all parties involved and so love is a profitable and practical thing to aspire to.

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  76. The soul question of a sociopath is retarded. That's the same as saying we're demons that are here to somehow inhibit society or something. Yes, we hide ourselves from most people, but that doesn't mean it is impossible to be ourself with people who would understand. Wearing masks is a defense mechanism because society doesn't know how to deal with us because we're different so they reject us. Society rejects the deviant. But saying that we have no real self or can have no real self is ignorant. Where we are not rejected it is possible for us to discover ourselves, or it is possible to be strong willed enough to know ourselves without the necessity of acceptance. It is difficult, and requires intelligence and strength of mind as well as introversion, but the personality is a complicated thing. It's possible for a sociopath to stumble across a motivation to know ourself and therefore have a self to be known. We just don't let very many people know it.

    You for example, Disney, would never accept the sociopath for all your preconceptions and have therefore never known one. I can see how no sociopath would feel any remorse for toying with you. You're a bitch. It's like black people not getting to know racist ass holes. Why would any sociopath show you their true self? they wouldn't.

    With stronger minded better people however, which are incredibly few and far between, they can function outside the dictated ideas from society. People who can think outside of "This is bad because people say it is" are the types of people who get to see a side of the sociopath that many do not. These people are the people who can know a sociopath... But they're usually sociopaths.

    So just because you've never seen a sociopath's personality, Peter Pan, doesn't mean that we're inhuman. We just think differently. Different clearly doesn't go over well in the world, does it?

    Anyway, I'm done now. That's all you'll see, though I have a lot more I think about love. For example, I think the fact that people can even feel a glimpse of it in the first place is the truest miracle of all time. I don't think empaths can even comprehend that. their thoughts are too dictated by outside forces, and I think that most empaths really just feel sympathy, or obtain security through what they call love... and i'm sorry but it's more than that.

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  77. Disney, I didn’t ignore romance deliberately. I am currently single so the closest things I have to love right now are my mother, my niece and good friend. That’s what I went with.

    But you ask about romance. I was married once. I was too young, but I did it. This is going to probably play right into your (or someone’s) stereotype so to speak, but I remember very distinctly wondering if I was in love with my then fiancé and if so, how I would know. I thought about her all the time and I looked forward to being with her and I felt good in her presence and so on, but did all of that amount to the exalted state of “being in love”? At the time, I didn’t know. I thought it did, but how could I tell? I’m a lot more laissez faire in my application of terms to mental/emotional states now. Like I said, back then I wanted to know if I were in love (kind of like some people here wanting to know if they are sociopaths) as if there were an objective set of traits/thoughts/feelings that must define the state of being in love for everyone so that if you don’t feel/experience all of those traits/thoughts/feelings then you are not in love. I kept asking myself if I “in love”? I now believe that was a wrong headed and misguided question. Now I believe that the better question to ask before getting married would have been, am I willing to say/do all of the things required to sustain my own emotional/sexual satisfaction and to help her do likewise, over the long term? Am I emotionally/intellectually equipped for such an undertaking? Those are more realistic questions as far as I’m concerned. Yes, I know that isn’t terribly romantic and isn’t “deep” emotionally speaking, but who cares? Besides which, what’s this business about deep emotions anyway?

    I’ll say this. I don’t think I am capable of falling in love, if by falling in love we mean being swept away and/or overtaken by lust or obsessive thoughts about another person. Not anymore. I have been attracted to women and drawn to them both physically and emotionally. Yet that attraction is, for me, just like all of the other emotions that I can stop with a small flicker of the mind (again, save anger). My ex wife was the first and quite possibly last time I will ever believe I am falling in love again. Not by choice mind you. It’s like walking into a dark room and thinking you see a snake in the corner, only to find out it was just a rope once you turn the light on. Well if you turn the light off again you can’t make yourself believe it’s a snake again, even if you wanted to. Likewise, I have seen the connection between my thoughts and the emotions I experienced, and with that insight, it seems doubtful to me that I can ever “fall” into anything like that again.

    It’s just like acting. I discovered to my complete surprise that I could generate all sorts of feelings if I were in theatre setting and I was giving a performance in front of an audience. But once that was over, so was the emotion.

    I know, I know. This is the part where someone (maybe you?) start to feel sorry for the poor emotionless robot calling himself Daniel Birdick, right? What can I say other than you and anyone else reading this is welcome to pity me for being less able to be swept away by my emotions. As for me, well I enjoy my inner freedom. I prefer it to being overwhelmed by any emotion, including passion.

    PS. I don't claim to be a sociopathic spokesperson. I haven't even claimed to be a sociopath. All I've been willing to claim are sociopathic tendencies. So take it for what it's worth Disney, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't much.

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  80. I went back to try to read those comments, and Daniel, your comments are very interesting to me, but I can't get past Disney's.

    Her motivation to know more about the sociopath is to try to cement her security as an empath, so she's on this blog to try to prove we're evil so she feels better about her weakness. That's how I see it anyway, and I find her comments frustratingly narrow and over educated for her the opinions she has. Sadly my ADD couldn't keep up with the conversation as it shifted to her.

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  81. Jasnowflake said, “And I'm sorry but this is where empaths fake it. No empath puts people before themself half as much as they say they do. And if they do, it's because it makes them feel good about themself that they did it so it's selfishly motivated.”

    I agree with this sentiment 110%. The utterly amazing part to me (yes, I still find it amazing, like watching a never ending magic trick) is the complete blindness normals have when it comes to this. For all of their talk about love and being in love and so on, they are so rarely actually willing to sacrifice anything that might threaten what they actually hold dear, which is their sense of self, their ego. It’s so rare in fact that they make saints out of people who even try to love unconditionally with any degree of consistency. And then they wonder, with apparent sincerity, about the conflict they experience in their relationships or why they’re going thru so much drama and so on. It’s so obvious to me but it seems to be a complete mystery to them. I’d think they were joking if this phenomenon weren’t so ubiquitous.

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  82. This is going to probably play right into your (or someone’s) stereotype so to speak, but I remember very distinctly wondering if I was in love with my then fiancé and if so, how I would know. I thought about her all the time and I looked forward to being with her and I felt good in her presence and so on, but did all of that amount to the exalted state of “being in love”? At the time, I didn’t know. I thought it did, but how could I tell?

    Daniel, before I fell in love, I tried to be in love similarly to what it sounds like your marriage was. I wanted to believe that love as an empath feels it was something I too could feel. As i said, I loved vicariously through my ex. But as you can see I've grown past that. Love is not a doubtable feeling when you have it and it truly is something a sociopath is capable of. Love is not even a feeling. It's an indescribeable friendship. In my case, it's like being best friends with myself. And what sociopath doesn't love themself? It's like being able to talk to yourself in a sane way and makes all your thoughts more fun. Love isn't the theatrical sex scenes, or the stupid poetry. It's more shallow emotionally than that. Love is the utmost practicality in relationships. It is not a compromise, it is not having to change and it is being appreciated anyway. Love as you seem to see it is something you are incapable of, because it is not so much a feeling that can be turned on and off. It is not a need that people describe it as. No human theoretically needs anyone. But it is an added joy to your life more beneficial to your happiness to hang onto. And the best part is that when it's real, it's easy to hang onto. The problem with most people is that they're fake. Like the horror stories of "As soon as the ring goes on everything changes". That's because people are a lie, and getting past the lies they put on is the hardest part.

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  83. agree with this sentiment 110%. The utterly amazing part to me (yes, I still find it amazing, like watching a never ending magic trick) is the complete blindness normals have when it comes to this.

    I agree. And i would use the word amazing. It amazes me daily how much people truly dilute themselves and how they could possibly do it so much and so well.

    I actually have that pinned as being the biggest difference between sociopaths and empaths. So far anyway. And it's what makes them so damn easy to manipulate. You just have to see how they manipulate themselves and use it against them. Another reason why there is no remorse in manipulating them. They do far worse than we ever could.

    I am constantly blown away and fascinated by the delusions people give themselves, and the justifications to terrible or silly things they put themselves through. I never tire of rediscovering their idiocy. You would think they would, though. It all seems like such a joke to amuse the people who see it. Another reason I call empaths weak.

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    1. Sounds like your jealous.....

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  84. Haha! this post just took a turn toward amusing! I wonder what an empath will say to that. Usually, in person they make further delusions and justifications, but perhaps on this thread they'll just get angry, as usual.

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  85. Birdick

    "Am I willing to say/do all of the things required to sustain my own emotional/sexual satisfaction and to help her do likewise, over the long term? Am I emotionally/intellectually equipped for such an undertaking? Those are more realistic questions as far as I’m concerned."

    I fully agree. Realism.Yes.


    Jasonflake
    You seem to dig the hell out of love; do you ever grow attached to it? since its something you seem to like to have im sure you wanna hang on to it, no?

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  86. jasnowflake

    "The problem with most people is that they're fake"

    I agree with that, but the sociopaths that I know ( and believe me they are) that seems to be their biggest pitfall, they seem to keep believing what they tell themselves. Over and over again. Its exactly what drives them to addiction often too.

    Im not saying empaths dont, most empaths are in my opinion total slaves to their own ego and thus fake.

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  87. Love? It is an interesting conversation and I believe that everyone is different so therefore shouldn't how we all feel love be different too? To love for me is to become vunerable, let down all your walls and spend time with the other person and get a real enjoyment out of spending time together. Being able to talk them about anything. Being able to trust - it's a very hard thing to do because the more you love someone the easier it is for them to hurt you. To put someone elses needs above yours is not selfless you do so because it makes you feel good. You think about them, take in to consideration how they are feeling, what they may want or need.

    How do you love someone that wears a mask? When you realise that almost anything they have claimed to have felt or shown is not real. When the only time they make you feel special or pay you any signifigant amount of attention is when they're drunk? When there is no communication, hardly any physical touch unless it's sex and no quality time. I read from someone else they felt like a piece of furniture that their S owned. I feel like that at times too. As though I'm an annoyance because he has gained what he wanted from me and now has no use for me. And I'm carrying his child.

    At times it is hard to accept. Most of the time I think of leaving but because of my 'emotions' I end up staying. To be able to control all my emotions - turn them off as per say - it would make things so much easier sometimes. To not feel is something I just couldn't fathom. (In regards to an earlier post - I personally do not feel anger or rage)

    I question how I can love somebody like this that is so different to me. At times I feel I have enough emotions for two people. To be in with a man that is not capable of ever showing love or any emotion is such a foreign thing and I feel unfulfiled so much of the time it makes me question what exactly am I holding on to. Nothing will ever change and that in it's self is the hardest thing to accept. This is just my experience of loving a S.

    T

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    1. I'm sorry, the site you were looking for is lovefraud.com

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  88. I'm responding to someones post about love allowing someone to flourish. I don't think that many sociopaths can allow someone to "flourish". They cannot love in a way that is truly beneficial to another with their best interest at heart in an uplifiting way. For instance, in my relationship with the sociopath and with anyone for that manner I would look at all ways I could be of benefit and uplift that person. He was in a certain business so I encouraged him to work for himself. I created a website for him to start working on his own if he wanted. Anything that was his dream which he didn't seem to have many long term ones was my dream. I even dreamed for him dreams that he did not have for himself. My heart was towards progress and mutual happiness. I noticed that the sociopath bf was not capable of this. Any success I had for myself he wanted to crush or stop. Any good thing was a point of jealousy with him. He could not go out of his way to help me in anything. They don't generally want their partners to flourish because this probably takes away the control and feeling of superiority. They don't seem to grasp the concept that if you do well so will they and vice versa. My friend compared it to crabs in a bucket when one crab has a grasp on the bucket edge and is lifting himself up the other crabs will grab onto that crab and pull him back in and nobody wins. It truly reminds me of my relationship with the sociopath, nobody including himself could win because of his short sightedness and inability to truly love or appreciate being loved. I do not believe that a sociopath is even able to love themselves. They may be selfish but that does not necessarily mean that they love themselves.

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    1. I would love to see a reply to your post from a sociopath and hear their side of the story as I experienced the same.

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    2. ^Where's Ukan? He would tell us the truth.

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    3. ^Frankly, I know the answer; they are like vampires, they suck the life out of you.

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    4. ^But only if we engage or allow them. We ignored the signs and leaned our lessons.

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    5. I've seen people filled with empathy do the same thing. Who doesn't know someone sitting around being a fucking loser envious of other people's success. Myself, I make all the money in my family and my wife doesn't have to work she goes to school. I encourage her in her studies and I want her to succeed in her goal of becoming a therapist. The other day I kept reminding her that she needed to sign up for classes when she was dragging her feet.

      This is an old comment, but it's worth noting that the person was trying to force their dreams on this other person who had no aspirations. You can only blame yourself in that relationship, because if you want someone who is ambitious you shouldn't be dating some loser with no ambition and trying to change him. It's like buying a car and getting angry that it doesn't fly like an airplane.

      In this case this person didn't truly love the other either, despite the self righteousness of the comment. She didn't love him, she loved what she projected onto him. She wanted him to be more like her.

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    6. Thank you bunny! I needed the kick in the butt. Summer has me listless. I love you.

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    7. UKan and Kany, your relationship is working for you but you have to admit that there are mal narcs and sociopaths that are opportunists and great liars. But women need to stop lying to themselves and take inventory early on in the relationship. My guess is he didn't do alot of talking and she accepted that behavior. And, yes, empaths lie, also, so don't call me out on that one.

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    8. You are a natural therapist, Kany.

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    9. They don't generally want their partners to flourish because this probably takes away the control and feeling of superiority.

      Now I don't know if my friend is a malignant narcissist or a sociopath or what, but it doesn't really matter and I don't really care. But yes, this was our whole friendship. If I accomplished something she thought was her right, she'd get mad and have a tantrum just like a 6 year old.

      it's worth noting that the person was trying to force their dreams on this other person who had no aspirations.

      This was not true in my case. She has a talent for taking my aspirations and making them her own. In everything.

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    10. Medusa - It doesn't sound like she loved you then. Love is not jealous?

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    11. I'm starting to believe that "You compete or you complete each other."

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    12. A little late to the game, but I like the lyrics of this song as a definition of love--we BOTH shall row:
      The water is wide,
      I cannot get o'er
      Neither have I wings to fly
      Give me a boat that can carry two
      And both shall row, my love and I

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  89. "Disney you complain about sociopaths constantly on this site being exploiters and takers, yet you contribute nothing but questions and judgements on the answers on this forum."

    Exxxxxactly. Disney, hate creates more hate. When people like you add fuel to the fire, it only gets bigger. If complaining is your agenda, maybe you're better off on a forum/blog with people who have similar ideologies.

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  90. 1st in 2012?

    Kany,

    You asked: "When you were young, were there things you assumed you would be?"

    Happy.

    I had no assumptions. I dreamed of hitting home runs, packing huge venues, performing on the "silver screen"... but nothing concrete. I never assumed I would be any of those things.

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    1. Hm. I assumed I'd have a family, a degree, and a big spacious house. I assumed that's what people had. And I've got it.

      If you dreamed of being on screen, why did you not assail for that? Why didn't you assume it would happen. You let things like family and the military shape your life for you.

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    2. Life isn't over yet, Kany. I'm a procrastinator and I have a history of starting things then not finishing them. Three books in the works right now. Two have been in the works for more than five years. Neither would be as good as your book, though. Your's I think would have a better hook. Still writing music. I have the college thing going. Two years left of this chapter and then I can write the next.

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    3. So why won't you finish your books?
      Did you try a screenplay? Perhaps you would have better luck.

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    4. It looks like my last two years in the Corps might leave me with much more time on my hands than I thought. First priority is to finish my degree. I don't see why I can't finish at least one of the books in that time as well. Never tried writing plays. Why do you think I might have better luck with a screenplay?

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    5. Its shorter and more concise. Easier to finish. And has a structure, so you can have an end goal.

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  91. I am coming to some understanding of my life, with the help of Kany and you all: all my interactions here.
    With the Mal Narc/Sociopath, is there simply a space there, which is like a short arm? The person could be born that way, or with a proclivity for it and then abuse would harden it.
    However, is it just a blunting of emotions, such as a short arm would be a blunting of the arm?

    Is it a freezing of the emotions? This article talks about emotions, but their being undeveloped. Are emotions in the Mal Narc/Socio like a gimp leg?

    On the other hand, could one be born with an abundance of accessibility to one's emotions, such that abuse would not take that connection away. It may numb it, but not eradicate it.

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    1. All of the talking you do about "the mal narc" is a way of releasing you of responsibility. Its a way of enabling your martyrdom and of allowing yourself not to have to change.

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    2. I am sorry about your headache. I hope you feel better. I, finally, see my mother, with my heart, not just my mind.

      Now, what is left is extreme self hatred.

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    3. You're still turning things inward. Its a form of powerlessness. The thing about power is it must be exercised externally, or its just pain.

      And the mal narc term is a blaming mechanism. Its not your fault, she's a mal narc. You need to get angry with your mother and express it externally somehow.

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    4. And I am feeling much better, thank you.

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    5. Monica, its not your fault. And you have every right to be angry with your mother for all she did to you. She deserves anger, and malice, and she's probably had a great deal of it in order for her to treat you the way she has.
      The right thing to do at this point is to be angry with her. To blame her. Otherwise your enabling her and her actions by telling yourself they were OK.

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    6. Thanks Kany
      You have said some very helpful things, today. I am going to think about them. I appreciate the help, a great deal.

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    9. What did your ex friend do to you? If you care to share.

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    10. I did already; it's all over the place.

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    11. The self hatred is so bad that I have felt I don't deserve to eat or to breathe. I don't deserve to feel. All I should do is to do myself in the way my mother wanted to do me in.

      I hold myself tightly. I tell myself it is crazy. I force myself to stay sane so no one can take me away.

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    12. She's in you like a possession.

      Exorcise.

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    13. Why do you still hold onto all that shame?

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    14. Did you try writing out questions to yourself? And answering with your other hand. Why don't you matter? Why are we still on this?

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    15. I am stuck. I will get back when I am not stuck. I have to think on the things you said as you said a lot. It will take me some time to let them sink it.
      Thank you!

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    16. I hold myself tightly.

      It was when I was going out for a smoke after dinner. She waited for me in the garage.

      The tightening of the body as I walked down the subdivision sidewalk, looking for a place to hide. In a shadow. In a bush. But there was not a spot of darkness in this sleepy beehive of a neighborhood; everything was so well lit. And so I compressed myself into an approaching-infinitesimal space, smaller denser and hotter with each inhale.

      It wasn't an unfamilar feeling.

      On this day, however, under this heartland twilight, from within this imminent singularity a single word exploded like a Big Bang:

      Shame.

      -------

      Back in the garage, I say to her, "Shame is such a useless emotion."

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    17. I just had my first urge to pet a gorgon.

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    18. Perhaps now is a good idea to practice your impulse control techniques Tim, because it's not usually a good idea to pet a stingray. After all, that's how Steve Irwin died.

      But, to be fair, he was a bit of a clown. He could only hunt crocodiles.

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    19. I have held rays before. I have NEVER even seen a Gorgon. To touch what I can't imagine...I can not control THAT type of impulse.

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    20. Well, I did stop straightening my hair.

      If that helps.

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  92. Can you EXPLAIN to someone with little/ no empathy that they have no empathy? Is it like trying to describe color to a blind man?

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  93. Monica,

    My wife just told me she wakes up everyday full of anxiety. I can't imagine that... literally can not. I have felt what I believe to be anxiety, but with any of my feelings it has never lasted very long at all. But to have the amount and intensity of a feeling the way my wife describes her anxiety is unimaginable to me. Colors to a blind man? I think it might be more like explaining the beauty of the Mona Lisa to someone who sees her as just another face with a smirk.

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    1. That is going to go in the Twitter, for sure :D

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    2. You guys need counseling. Or just her. She needs a counselor.

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    3. My friend has always had that issue where she has a very hard time recognizing faces. She still can't tell the difference between Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro. I told her the other day that there was a name for that. For people who recognize others by their parts rather than their whole. She told me that yes, she can only recognize people by their noses. I told her it was related to an empathy thing. "Nuh uh!" she says. "I have a lot of empathy! Aren't I the most generous person you know?"

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    4. I bet your friend is still confused with the movie "Heat".

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    5. I doubt she's ever seen it because she has a fair amount of disgust with manly type things.

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    6. Is she the most generous person you know?

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  94. MonicaAugust 10, 2012 5:56 AM
    "Tom


    I do not like you alternatively sucking up to me and then trying to bully me. I am the most accepting person on here, perhaps. You are on my last friggin nerve."

    Monica,

    I was being honest. I don't want to bully you. Too many others will do that before the day is through. You do intrigue me. I hope you accept my honesty when you get on "my last friggin nerve". Seeing that you stopped swearing, you took the time to control your impulses to type obscenities, I will return the favor and do my best to control my impulses to tell you when I would like to do you physical harm. How's that?

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    1. Tom
      No one bullies me, here, so don't think you have the power to do so, as you don't. With that being said, I am all about connecting with people ~

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    2. How honest a person are you?

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    3. As honest as I can be. There is no health without honesty.

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    4. Monica's a crazy cunt, she needs psychic evaluation and she'd be thrown in a psychic hospital for years.

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    5. you took the time to control your impulses ...

      ... do my best to control my impulses


      Lil Boo posted that link to a test and info on impulse control too. Looks like this is quite the sore topic for you. And not just your own problems with impulse control. Or perhaps it's projection when you lecture Monica on this subject?

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    6. Did it come across as projection, Ell? Monica had said my observation of her using foul language being in contrast to her Christian nature and that she had the time to think about what she was about to post helped her to stop using words that she really didn't want to use anyway. If my observation assisted her I thought it good etiquette to stop telling her I wanted to bash her head in just because I was thinking it.

      I do have impulse control issues. It has gotten better with age.

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    7. Eden's not gone.

      And Monica, I think what looks to you like people trying to bully you here is mostly just frustration.

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    8. It's awfully hard to be gone when a couple regulars keep filling me in on almost everything going on here, by email. And yet I haven't made a single comment in nearly to weeks, save posting those videos in the forum last night, and this one right here.

      How 'bout you stop reading the anonymous comments with your arrogance, and inability to accept that I'm actually capable of disinterest in you... fucking narcissists.

      That comment should cover the both of you.

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  95. So, what is your definition of "bullying"?

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    1. I can't stop UKan( or anyone) from calling me a name, but I don't have to engage. If I don't engage, I am not bullied.

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    2. Agreed. I have seen you engage from time to time, though.

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    3. Yes, I may be saved but I am a heck of a long way from perfect ~

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    4. Tom Hill is the worst.

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    5. You do realize that using the tilde symbol at the end of your sentence is for sarcasm, right Monica? Do you understand how sarcasm works?

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    6. We're talking about crazy Monica here, don't expect much.

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    7. I know Eden is not gone. She is more present than ever ~

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    8. Hey,Ho, Tom Hill-o. Worst of the worst. His mother's curse. Scurvy, Blurvy, Tom Hill-o.

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    9. To be the object of inspiration... Ahhhh.

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    10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

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  96. Why would calling someone Tom Bombadil be an insult? Dude was a badass and a half.

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  97. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYIJoGKh7sE&feature=related

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  98. I just noticed that this argument is three years old. My bad. But it was really dumb. Some snowflake dude was so riled up over two different definitions of something. What he described was not all that comes with the love non psychopaths describe, and that's all there is to it. He can't sit there and say, no the other stuff isn't love and the only thing love is is what I say, only that part, because people define what love is (along with other words) and many people use the definition of love that this guy is NOT talking about, so he should just get over it. You can argue about couches and chairs too, but if chairs have been defined by people as thing_here, just shut up and take it. whatever your talking about can be a kind of chair too, but accept that you just can't experience/sit in the chairs others can sit in.

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  99. if you can feel love then your probably not a sociopath. love is about caring for the other person, wanting them to be happy, putting their needs in front of yours... sociopaths won't do that because they don't feel empathy for other people and don't care about them. I'm not trying to insult anyone, that's just the way I see it.

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    1. What I find interesting is I can love people, but never more than I love and care about myself. I don't know if I'm just narcissistic or borderline sociopath or whatever, but everyone I've ever loved - family or otherwise - have always come second to myself, but higher than anyone else in my life. I can care a great deal about people, but it's always me, them, then anyone else who I don't really care about is at the bottom of my regard pile. And when I do care about someone, I've explored it and found that it's dependant on how much they do for me in general. The more people do me favours or help me out, the more I grow to like them, I never just like someone unconditionally. But I am capable of love and empathy to a degree, just seemingly not as much as other people around me.

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