Friday, April 25, 2014

Appeal to emotion

Via the Washington Post/Volokh Conspiracy, this political advertisement attacking someone for having been a criminal defense attorney:


RGA spokesperson Jon Thompson defended the ad by commenting, “Vincent Sheheen made a deliberate choice to defend violent criminals who abused women and children. He is unfit and unprepared to serve as governor of South Carolina.” 

The comments are hilarious. From one:

You (as a lawyer) are much too easy on yourself. If you attend a top school and do well enough to freely choose the form of your practice, you should know at that time that you may be judged for your choice. If you followed the money to serve bad clients, and especially if you made a career of it, you should definitely be able to answer for it. If you can't or won't, we'll assume you're greedy, ambitious, or both; these may not disqualify you, but they certainly won't ennoble you

Obviously the author of the original post is biased and is just self-interestedly defending his own livelihood, right? It can't be that he has some special knowledge of the way the world works that makes it impossible for him to believe that justice could be adequately served if we just make sure we "punish the guilty".

Or this slightly more naive one:

I don't agree with the ad's criticism of Sheehen, but I don't see why it's out of bounds. Its an opportunity for Sheehen to respond and explain something about the legal profession, the adversary system, why he does what he does and why he believes that is right and why it makes him a good candidate for office.

Too funny, because the marketplace of ideas works so well and people love a good, passionless appeal to reason. Which is why this guy's comment is so great:

And Romney did a poor job of explaining why private equity firms like Bain are good for the country (if they are) just like the legal profession does a very poor job of explaining why the guy waving his willy at a bunch of kids on the playground gets a taxpayer funded legal aid lawyer.

Yes, that seems right. People just don't do a good enough job explaining why people's negative emotional reactions to things like being a corporate raider or criminal defense attorney may be misplaced. Another:

Why is the comment that this is what this man chose to do with his life out of bounds? Because we think what he did with his life is good? I don't see how its a special category of criticism.

He doesn't stop there:

Neither you, nor [the author] has explained why criticism of the legal profession is in some special out of bounds category. Is it because we think defense lawyers are important? 

Somebody's attempt to provide a well-reasoned rebuttal to the argument:

"Innocent until proven guilty" and "reasonable doubt" (not to mention “equal justice for all”) are no longer operative principles when defense counsel "spins", "lies" and "withholds" (etc.) all in the name of "justice" for a "client" (especially one with monetary resources). Clearly all levels of this nation's regulatory and judicial systems also greatly discount these “ancient” principles, concurrent with the abandonment of "mens rea".  

For those of you not versed in legal speak, mens rea is the mental state required for the commission of a particular crime (e.g. intent to kill for murder, whereas manslaughter doesn't necessarily include intent to kill). I think what this person is saying is that it's not what people do that matters, it's whether they are good or evil people? :)

He continues:

In the prescriptive and procedure driven society we in the USA are burdened with I think it is naive to believe that politicians, prosecutors and attorneys in general are guided by a certain set of highly developed, balanced (i.e., “professional”), ethical standards; like the rest of the populace each individual must consistently demonstrate their personal character and the "ethical standards of behavior" by which they conduct themself.

I think what he means is that people who just follow the letter of the law can still be criticized for not having the right personal character.

If the self-assuredness of people like this doesn't freak you out a little bit, then perhaps you and I have different levels of fear about the strength of emotion-fueled mobs.

Finally, perhaps my favorite exchange:

It's not that the RGA thinks that defendants shouldn't be represented at trial, it's just that the RGA thinks criminal defense attorneys are reprehensible scum who should be hounded out of all decent society to live lives of shameful remorse for their heinous deeds.

Followed by the rebuttal:

There are many members of "decent society" who are not governors of their state.

I mean, these people supporting the advertisement are absolutely right -- this candidate has apparently fallen short of their expectations of moral character. And they have every right to not vote for him based on that. But isn't that a little like saying that it's fine for Catholics to have certain jobs but not be governor (especially if we happen to be God fearing protestants)? That we can allow atheists to join the city council maybe, but definitely not allow them to corrupt our children as grammar school teachers? If you're Sunni and we're Shiite, you have failed our moral character test? I know some of you have strong feelings about morality. I guess I'm just making the point that they are largely subjective and that a lot of people would not agree with you and that they are just as right as you are, or at least you can't prove otherwise. Also, when sociopaths manipulate it is wrong but when other people manipulate to get someone elected with stronger moral character, that is better?

37 comments:

  1. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we need criminal defense attorneys, to make sure that mobs don't replace what is good about our justice system; One of the few things good about it.

    Not clear on the details of the criminal cases listed above, not sure if they are either. Though the ad was probably nonetheless effective at its goal. Sadly enough.

    ReplyDelete
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    2. TEEHEEE



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    3. TEEHEEE



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    4. TEEHEEE

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  2. I know a female sociopath lawyer who specializes in representing men in cases where they are accused of raping their wives and/or abusing the kids.

    It helps that she's a woman; people think better of the guy because of her.

    Most of the men sound like spiteful narcissists. Their spite gets them to pay her to cause trouble for their ex. She is great at managing their massive egos, which is good for business. She's able to convince them to try to get more. Also, these guys remarry and need more divorce services.

    Her sociopathy definitely helps her to be an effective advocate for these flawed men.

    Some might look at the situation - woman helping men who abuse women and kids to get custody and avoid paying the woman money - an see a bad thing. As if the universe shouldn't be this way. And because it shouldn't be this way, find someone to blame -- oh yeah the sociopath lawyer -- and then blame the shit out of them.

    Alternatively, look at the system of law. It needs sociopaths. And where do sociopathic wife raping men come from? Out of women's vaginas. The very same women who complain loudly about their ex-sociopathic husbands proceed to raise the next generation of sociopaths. And when you divorced moms slut around in front of your kids, you train your children to be dishonest, lazy and lacking in the ethics department. By choosing shitty fathers, you teach your kids that dad's ethics are unimportant. So your sociopathic spawn learn that they can get what they want without controlling their impulses, putting in work, paying child support, etc.

    The system that produces and nurtures sociopaths is big, and is made up of non-sociopath elements.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All fine in theory but in practice, sociopaths are usually skilled con men who have impregnated their woman well before they drop the mask. She thinks she has chosen a good guy to father her children. That's the thing about gaslighting, people don't know which end is up. Society is getting more and more sociopathic, where will it end?

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    2. Yeah, self responsibility. Let's take responsibility for ourselves and not let others determine our futures. (was once on a jury where I was the only one to vote guilty .It was Monday of the second week and I basically said we can sit here all week, I WON'T change my mind. and I didn't and it was a hung jury.) There's so much fucking injustice in law, government, health-care, journalism,etc., it's disgusting! It was kind of nice to STAND UP to abuse and justice and NOT back down!

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    3. "Where will it end?" Society is becoming MORE narcissistic; with many malignant narcissists - not sociopaths ~

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    4. TEEHEEE



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  3. That commercial is a logical fallacy and it made me think.

    Sometimes I think life is a logical fallacy.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Being charged with certain crimes is almost as good as being convicted of them.

    There are cases where daughters are coerced by their mothers to give false testimony against their fathers and allege rape.

    There are many divorce cases where wives will falsely accuse their husbands of abuse to get custody of children and a bigger chunk of the marital estate.

    Of course I am aware that some fathers abuse their children and their wives, but don't defense attorneys defend both innocent and guilty men? I must possess some serious character flaw which blinds me to the fact that all men accused of abusing women/children are guilty of abusing women/children.

    Fucking hell, occasionally I'll make some stupid statements out of emotional confusion, but if I sit down for three seconds and think about a problem logic usually sorts things out. How does this inane excrement go mainstream, much less end up on television?

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    2. TEEHEEE



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    3. VEGITOPATH LOVES MONEECA AND UKANApril 25, 2014 at 3:30 PM

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  5. It's South Carolina, hardly the forefront of equality for anyone unless you have a bible and a penis. Make that a white penis.

    MelissaR

    ReplyDelete
  6. You have to differentiate between high functioning and
    low functioning sociopaths.
    Everybody acts according to their interests. The high functioning
    sociopath has found out that it pays to behave in a more
    socially responsible manner. It's not that he won't cut corners
    when not under scrutany , but he knows what works. This is why
    most of the world loves, admires, and FOLLOWS the high
    functioning sociopath.
    The low functioning sociopath, by contrast, lives only to fill his
    gradifications. He is a moral imbecial. He never learned what
    benifits he could accquire by more self restraint. The cause might
    be because of abuse and lack of pratical education.
    Some low functioning sociopaths are to far gone to be helped.
    But enough can, so it would be wrong to give up on them.

    ReplyDelete
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  7. Politicans and lawyers are not the only manipulators of emotion. The media company that was hired by the RGA for that ad are professional manipulators as well.

    Manipulating emotions is almost trivial, and it overrides rationality in most people. Which is sometimes unfortunate if not disappointing, because whenever a debate is in play and a rational argument is used (which is of more substance to reality) it is discarded either in part or in whole solely based on an emotional counter-argument. Disappointing when you are looking for an intellectual discussion, but not surprising.

    What the ad does is amplify any dormant negative emotions at that moment for the viewer and guide it to a compatible conclusion as set by the manipulators. Stirring up negative emotions and guiding it to a wanted conclusion is far more potent and effective than positive ones. This is why attack ads are favored over positive character ads, because doubt and mistrust are easy and powerful catalysts to activate in people. Sometimes, if you are lazy, don't have the time to finely tune delivery, or are dealing with skeptical/hostile receivers (of you), all you need to do is seed it. The catalyst can be so powerful that they develop the hate and/or disgust for you.

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  8. When I first started practicing law I took some appointed criminal defense cases. I hated the work because it was tedious and boring and the pay sucked, but I never gave a second thought to defending those dirtbag clients. They were almost universally guilty, so it was just a matter of pushing them through the criminal-justice meatgrinder.

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    1. You passed judgment on them before trial? Did you feel that your representation for them was less than what you would feel and give for those you thought as not guilty beforehand?

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    4. Bob,

      I don't know whether you will actually see this reply, but I hope you will.

      How do you think criminal defense lawyers operate? Do you think they don't have opinions about their client's guilt or innocence? Of course we do. Sometimes they would be honest and admit to having committed the crime, sometime they would lie their asses off. Either way, lawyers are just as capable as jurors are, if not more so, of evaluating evidence. How else can we concoct a cogent defense?

      Personally, I don't care whether my clients were guilty or innocent. However, it did always gall me when my idiot clients would lie to the one person capable of actually helping them- me. Either way, I'm not going to lose any sleep over their fates. But when faced with overwhelming evidence of their guilt, and little to no evidence in their favor, it was pretty much always a slam-dunk for the prosecution. At that point, it's just a matter of negotiating the best plea deal you can for a defendant. Lawyers don't make good cases, facts do.

      People, including clients, have a really unrealistic view of how the trial process works, as if we lawyers are staying up late crafting the perfect defense in order to pluck victory from the jaws of absolute undeniable guilt.

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  12. Mr. Teeeee heeler man you need get laid.

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    1. TEEHEEE MEE LUV MONEECA AND UKAN. TEEHEE MEE WUNT THUM TOO RAVISH MEE SO I CAN HAV THUR CHILDREN TEEHEE

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    2. Vegie, you really went all out today.
      I liked it when you had that thought that they are "genneettecaally superior". My brain always read it as "genitally superior". Cracked me up every time.

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    3. UKAN, I'D ENJOY FUCKING HIM. WE ALL WOULD.

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  13. Veg is ME when she gets bored and starts acting out.

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  14. "I think it is naive to believe that politicians, prosecutors and attorneys in general are guided by a certain set of highly developed, balanced (i.e., “professional”), ethical standards"

    pfffffft. wait does anyone believe that xyz group in general is guided by highly developed (as opposed to less evolved and therefore less ...) balanced (balancing....) ethical.... omg i fell asleep reading this response and then woke up outraged.

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