Sunday, October 3, 2010

Self-reflection

This was in a refreshingly honest email by a normal person and reluctant friend of a sociopath, in response to this post on fear mongering:
I've read a lot on your site (and in general) about "normal" people being afraid of people like you, and I've got to say that I understand that fear. When someone that you thought you knew very well morphs into something unrelatable before your very eyes, it's downright terrifying. It's also a little heart-breaking, because, honestly, I can see humanity's weakness in myself when I recoil from what I don't understand. Evil, after all, is a man made concept, and I'm no one to decide what's "right". I just can't take it. I won't ever condemn him for what he is because he can't help how he was made and our differences don't imply that I'm somehow better than he is, but I can't consciously associate and be friends with someone that could so easily cast me aside to climb a few more rungs on the ladder to success.
I guess socios and normal people have more in common than people think, i.e. inclinations to do both good and evil that we either choose to indulge or fight.

102 comments:

  1. I think that this guy may have the right idea about sociopathy. it's not necessarily a disorder or a psychological defect. Perhaps the reason that there seems to be no successful treatmant is because its just another way of being and we shouldn't judge or label people for it.**

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  2. Well I try. I can't really tell if if your being sarcastic or not so i'll just choose to take it as a complement. Mabye I should even start some kind of movement campaigning for sociopaths rights.**

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  3. Sociopaths are here to stay. If you find yourself next to one, you choose to either deal with them or distance yourself from them; same as with anyone you know.

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  4. Damn, guess I'll have to go and return all these wooden stakes and garlic.

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  5. As well you should no one, I think you'll find that holy water works much better.**

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  6. I feel so much better now:)

    Grace

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  7. Normals can turn into something like a sociopath when something they really want is up for the taking. It comes down to whats more important to them. the values of modern business seem to support the sociopath more so than the empath. The bottom line isn't friendly and it doesn't care if your kids are sick, or your friends get hurt. It doesn't care if your wife leaves you, or if the world hates you. So either you get over it and suffer latter--unless you are a sociopath who wont care--or you fall when someone else makes the move.

    Its harsh but for the most part its how life has always been. To me it seems like a from a natural selection. Of course there is no universal truth, that being said, to me it seems easier to assume that the friend is a sociopath because then it isn't his fault. He can't help it. I don't understand why doing what it takes makes you a sociopath. In that respect--that would mean that almost every successful business person is a sociopath.

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  8. Socio's are so funny... especially PMS, I just that whistling noise..

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  9. oop's, love!!! x

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  10. I still have no idea what that expression is supposed to mean.

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  11. I don't know what that means either. Is it a compliment or what?
    Oh well.

    Grace

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  13. lol "just love that whistling noise"
    You say that as if anything you say has any meaning.you said nothing with an attempted insulate. at least thats how I see it. Maybe if you accentually explained what you where talking about. I suppose you believe there is actual some set answer to all of this. Interesting because if it were that simple wouldn't it have a simple f*ing solution.

    Postmodern- i believe "anon**" was saying that sociopaths like to blow hot air--like a tea pot whistles with steam.

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  15. Oh, there's a clear reference being made. It was in a post a few weeks back.

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  16. @It Is What It Is: I'm fairly sure it's just UKan trying to do... something. Even if it's not, they'll just fade away like last time. It's kind of flattering that I'm threatening enough to deserve such desperate nonsense, though.

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  17. Indeed. I can see that. New around here - whats UKan?

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  18. UKan is one the resident sociopaths. If you haven't run into him yet, I'm sure you will.

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    1. they call him ukan cuz everyone he knows says " you can blow me!"

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  19. Thats actually kind of funny. I suppose there is no real point then.

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  20. It Is What It Is, I didn't make that comment and I'm unsure why you believe that I did. Please explain.**

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  21. I don't recall the date of M.E.'s post. I don't recall the guys who were talking. I do recall one of them asked the other, "Did it whistle?"

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  22. lol. when you post as "Anonymous" your not going to be alone. It doesn't really matter who said it.

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  23. Aerianne- I see. Well then what does it means?

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  24. Good point, I've now shed my anonymity.

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  25. It Is, I can't say for certain since they weren't my words, but I just assumed maybe it had to do with a blowjob.

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  26. Still not a complement and with even less content. That is funny though.

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  27. Nobody can help how they were made, and they will always be judged by their actions.

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  28. PMS I warned you not to be stupid, now your starting to lose my respect. I don't make stupid refrences to private parts, fart jokes, and kid comments. I tell you how you need to get your head out of the books and walk outside for a minute. I tell you that if you get duped by people like Rust Bucket you are a mark pretending to be a predator. How you survive in the criminal world is beyond me. You must be a weed dealer. I can see it now. A green anarcho-individualist. Reading your books and pondering on theories. Wanting to be against society for no reason at all. Except boredom. Now that you are old enough to wear trousers I think its time to get sone wisdom under your belt.

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  29. The world in general is out for itself, I belive that if given the chance a lot of "normal" people would indulge in less then perfect actions. Such is the world.

    What person in this day and age would not take a promotion within a company that he didn't deserve if the ramifications were nil ? I think that if people were honestly faced with the choice of making 40k a year or making 80k a year, a collective of us would pounce on the move and not think twice about it.

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  30. Oh, my, someone's a little huffy. You know, UKan, I'm beginning to think all this bluster is just your pretty little façade. It doesn't rile me in the least, and all you succeed in is making a number of assumptions with no backing. How you survive in the criminal world without the presence of mind to think before you spew is beyond me. You must be a coke dealer.

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  31. What person in this day and age would not take a promotion within a company that he didn't deserve if the ramifications were nil ?

    If someone is offered a promotion,the person offering it must think they deserve it.
    And there would be ramifications due to bad performance,demotion, or dismissle.

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  32. Well, buy me slippers and call me Dorothy!!! i've been reading this blog for about a week and it beats all the clinical stuff I've read on sociopaths. I got unceremoniously dumped out of no where (for something that made ZERO sense) a month ago and now the scales have fallen from my eyes and it makes perfect sense. It's not the kind of thought process I have, but I can comprehend it now.

    The same reason he liked me was the same reason he ditched me. (not that that in and of itself is indicative of sociopathy, but the part, post-breakup, where he flat told me that he has no empathy was a clue!) I wouldn't have pegged him for sociopathy based on standard criteria, BUT, my ability to ascertain the scope of nuanced behavior in sociopathy has expanded exponentially based on this blog.
    There were many who said that figuring out what happened wouldn't make any difference. I am guessing that a sociopath *would* understand that being able to give definition to motivations, intentions and reactions/actions is indeed *incredibly* gratifying.
    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, methinks my own bleeding heart could use a tourniquet. It's time to rein in my compassion. Time to learn to be a bit more judicious. Frankly, the sociopath I just dated might have done me an enormous favor if I choose to act wisely based on this incident.

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  33. Dealing coke is not a business for fools, unless you sniff your product. That would be a change for you wouldn't it. Not smoking all your profits. You are a tadpool.
    Rusty was trying to show us what a total knob you are and it worked. Every jab he made got you defensive. Even medusa tried to warn you. Another commentor saw when he spelled UKan it was Ukan. Sloppy in my opinion, but he still fooled you with that.
    I can appreciate you using me rusty, for a good cause. I have to give you credit. You showed his arse, and it whistles.

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  34. Amelia said, "now the scales have fallen from my eyes and it makes perfect sense."
    Welcome, Sister, lol.

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  35. I think that if people were honestly faced with the choice of making 40k a year or making 80k a year, a collective of us would pounce on the move and not think twice about it.

    Depending on what you would have to do for the 80k, you would have to be an idiot not to pounce on it.

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  36. Um... just so you know, I was the one that pointed out the UKan/Ukan difference. And I've never been a drug dealer.

    I fail to see how I "became defensive" over anything Rust said. I don't even know that he made any jabs. Not a bad straw man, though, artful dodger.

    You're just... depressingly childish lately, UKan. That's all, really. I'm disappointed. At least wankers didn't have any credibility to lose... you just sort of look like you're raging about nothing.

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  37. UKan, PMS -

    Now, now, boys! If you two can't play nicely together ...

    ... then hang on a minute while I go grab a beer. I don't want to miss any of it.

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  38. Oh! Whistling arse! Now, I get it!

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  39. @lamme
    Well lets put this scenario up for a poke and a play, something to better define the situation.
    You work closely with someone on all projects, a partner of sorts.
    He/she makes a move forward progressing and leaving you behind as a clear follower of the partnership, he/she decides to celebrate prematurely over said progression and leaves the work uncovered for the taking no security, if you take the work change some details here and there delete or obstruct whatever research or notes your partner had and submit it as your own the only person to know would be your partner who lets face it would come off as self serving and petty if they complained, you would be investigated however, but, being as though you worked on the same projects you could easily put on a display to convince the people it was your idea. No ramifications but your conscience and he can be paid off with about 40k extra a year.

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  40. Aerianne- Thank you for having me.
    It's not like I'm not sad still, or disappointed. But I'm not confused, I don't wonder, either, if I am stupid or crazy. We come from 2 radically different places and motivations and intentions. I don't blame him for what happened. Could things have gone differently, sure. Mostly on my end, maybe, but I was only operating on what I knew based on what I perceived. I feel much more in charge of my emotions and myself when I can understand how things have gone down.

    The worst thing now is that I am so terribly curious about all things psychological and am compelled to ask him a billion questions about every little thing. *sigh* I already know that will get me nowhere. I'm going to have to sit on this for a long time and weasel things out of him a little at a time, with subtlety and dispassion. Boo on that. I'm an impatient gal. But I got this far in my answers and I will get the rest of them later when I am much more removed from the circumstances.

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  41. Amelia, understanding won't change anything, as you know, but it can give you a sense of closure that lots of us get robbed of up front.

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  42. @Gabriel: There's nothing to miss. I've seen through UKan's pathetic, self-serving retcons, and his whole "game". If he wants to return to normality, that's what will happen. But if he wishes to continue his wasteful little feud, I will ignore him like the anonymous mosquito he is. Full stop.

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  43. @Some Other Me.

    What can I say, people need to learn from their mistakes, nobody's perfect,we all make them.

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  44. Aerianne,u changes a *lot* of things. Internally. I don't mean that now I'll live happily ever after with him. I suspect that though he was patient enough with me and tolerant enough of my emotional misery to have about 5 hours of conversation after the fact is something. I have no interest in a long-term attachment to someone that cannot share in my triumphs and sorrows.

    The last sociopath I engaged in any involvement with (and the only other one as far as I know) was really into the chaos. I'd mention how crazy some girl was and he'd be out there woo-ing her ASAP. We'd fall out, we'd make up, he'd fuck me over again and then I'd give him the silent treatment. It seemed to be the only thing that really got to him. Because it gave me control. He's dead of a heroin overdose.

    The man I just dated, however, seems to have his life in a very precarious balance. It would seem that neither my overabundance of comfort level, enthusiasm or (later) my tears were congruent to his careful constructs. He spent a few years alone before deciding to try things out with me, and based on a lot of the things he told me, now, with my new glasses on I see that he's very Dexter style in that he has carefully constructed behavioral standards that he uses to keep himself living a semblance of normalcy. He only seemed quirky and odd to me and a couple of other people, most people looked at me like I was nuts when I would fondly mention how off-beat he seemed to me. (and I'm not what anyone would call mainstream)

    During the entire relationship I would joke that Ashton Kutcher was bound to jump out at any moment at tell me I was being "Punk'd". My friends would chide me not to second guess it...... So I suppose there was always something I couldn't put my finger on....

    At any rate, I feel like a great weight has been lifted from me. I'm owning my own strong emotions and will seek to grip them tighter as I move along. I suspect I haven't seen the last of this sociopath, though. He did say he wanted our next conversation to be "less meaningful" hahaha. I was outraged until I grasped what he's about; now I think I achieved quite a measure of consideration from him during what must have been quite a chore for him.

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  45. Amelia, probably the longer you are away from it, the more you will see, in retrospect. The puzzle pieces will fall into place and you'll see the whole picture for what it was.

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  46. Ha ha look at all this chaos

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  47. Well. I got very lucky. I mostly just got the dream boyfriend who was a little stubborn about very random things. Who then dropped me when I became inconvenient even though he was making a go at a "normal" relationship. I got "Diet Sociopath".

    I already felt sorry for him. But now, I realize that there's no need. So I'm learning a LOT. I know that he would not be interested or amused or engaged by me calling him up and blabbing about how much I understand about him now. So I'm subjecting y'all to that. I'm going to get some very useful skills and information in all of this.

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  48. No need to feel sorry for him, Amelia. Sociopathy isn't painful for them, lol.

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  49. "I know that he would not be interested or amused or engaged by me calling him up and blabbing about how much I understand about him now."

    Lol. I'd love to hear that call.

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  50. PoMo- I would, too! But guess what I learned in Sociopathy 101 today?

    Making that phone call would not get me what I want.

    Someone please give me a gold star!

    So, he got to observe me in order to cater to who I am to achieve whatever his goals were in regards to me.

    I was *not* able to observe the real him, the only glimpses I got of how he really is was when he was kicking me to the curb. However, I can now, in retrospect apply what I have learned here in order to not only understand him and what happened, but also to recognize some of my own traits that work in my disfavor.

    My question, to the sociopaths is........

    What things have you been taught, if any, about *yourself* by someone you've been involved with? (regardless of if they are a normal or even another sociopath, though, if course it is helpful to identify what their perspective is when describing).

    I ask this (which may have been asked a million times, but if anyone wants to share.....) because most of why I've read describes, at length, the ways that sociopaths read and glean info about people that leads them to know more about how to interact with people so that they can then get what they want from them. Bot not so much about the folks that have impacted your own idea of self. If any.

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  52. Hi Amelia,

    I think it's great that you have a good sense of what has happened to you. It took me a long time to understand everything because I was too busy blaming him for everything that went down. I was too angry to understand and accept anything that pointed to me.

    I can relate to what you said about the silent treatment and how it gave you control. My ex went crazy when I did that and he showed up at my front door. I was impressed, considering he lives almost 2 hours away. I'm not sure if he did that because he wanted me to know he cared or if it was a facade to make me think that he cared. Well, obviously it was the latter. In any case, Aerianne is right...it would be good for you to stay away for a while so you can continue reflecting without interference

    Grace

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  53. When a significant empath and I are at odds, and she goes silent, I also sometimes re-engage. Why? Because usually they want to talk it out, work through things, emote and express themselves endlessly. When they go silent, I become intrigued. Is that ceding control? Perhaps, in that I'm allowing her to extend the encounter, though it's to satisfy my own curiosity.

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  54. When I talked about this with my ex, I didn't say he was a sociopath. His ex wife told him often. She told me he was when things got weird. I had no idea. When she told me I did some research, that's how I ended up here, and then I believed her. I did try to tell him I understood what he really was and he acknowledged it to some degree. I used open ended questions and it worked. After that, I think he was embarrassed because I knew and I was no use to him anymore.

    Also, Just as things got weird..he took my pictures off facebook and all that shit..he called me and asked me to meet him because he wanted a blowjob (sorry fellas) but I FORGOT TO MEET HIM. Can you imagine the blow to his ego instead? I didn't do it on purpose though. I was busy with school. The next day he used my credit card. The next day after that, plop. In retrospect I might have induced the ending. He is in his mid forties and acted like a teenager. Oh well.

    Grace

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  55. Maybe Gabriel, you want what you can't have and then when you get it you don't want it anymore. At least in these situations. Something like that?

    Grace

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  56. I do the same thing, Gabriel. It differs from the norm in a way which excites me. Teasing the details out of a stubbornly silent person is wonderful exercise.

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  57. Aerianne- I do understand about "going through it again". My entire history with Socio #1 has gone through an almost instantaneous and radical transformation now that I understand it. As had my recent relationship. Both of them provoked very strong feelings for me. I tend to be easy to get along with, secure, stable and tirelessly compassionate. Both of them managed to rattle me to emotional upheaval and public tears. (which make me very mad at myself, oh, yes, I can lay the blame where it is due!) So when you say you don't know if that's a horse you want to saddle up again.... I get it.

    I'm not sure how much he knows about his way of being. he was able to articulate that he knows no empathy. And he's aware of a *lot* of things, due to his sociopathic nature or a broader knowledge of the subject I do not know. If I hadn't lost control of myself during the emotional tidal wave I might be able to squeeze in this kind of talk. But I know right now I need to stay away.

    @grace,
    yeah, I think it's great. Just because I reacted badly to the truth doesn't mean I didn't want to hear it.

    Now that I think of it, whenever I'd change my tactics to something new with Socio #1, he'd get all coy and hesitant and "Aww shucks, I know you don't wanna waste your time on me...." I think this wasin order to buy time so he could re-calculate my actions and where they were leading and what I might do next.

    Oh, yeah, I used to think it was impossible that anyone could go to such great lengths for you one minute and then totally ignore you the next day. Now I see why/how this happens. it's like DUH-squared once you have a few simple tools to understand the different rules.

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  58. Grace! I guess you really blew it!

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  59. But in the end there wasn't much to blow..omg.

    Grace

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  60. I may be seeing him again next week. Before the split a month ago he bought us tickets to see a concert later this month. I live in another city and bought a plane ticket home. (He would do stuff like but a plane ticket to come see me months ahead of time, even though it was only a month or 2 into us dating, what girl can resist?!) I wanna go anyhow and I have plenty of friends there who will also go. But I have a feeling our paths will cross. I'll smile my winning smile, but I'm not going to approach him....even if I have to enlist an army to keep me from it. I think I'll be fine, though, now that I know what I really want can only be gotten that way, if at all.

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  62. "Maybe Gabriel, you want what you can't have and then when you get it you don't want it anymore. At least in these situations. Something like that?"

    Grace,

    The fun is in the getting, especially something someone says I can't have. Once I have it, it's only fun so long as it's interesting, or if someone else is trying to take it from me. Once it's stable and predictable, it's boring. Then I don't want it anymore. If that's what you're referring to, then yes, guilty as charged.

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  63. Aerianne, based on your description of your ride home and your usual needs on such a trip and the security of a firearm... whoah, I'm guessing you have had your fair share of terrible experiences. I can't imagine. I rarely feel unsafe or anxious.

    Did you feel that you had overcome a hurdle or that you were so exhausted by the stress of it that you won't want to attempt a solo outing like that for a while?

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  64. Time to stir up lovefraud

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  66. Gabriel- I did a similar thing except for me it was about control. This ability to ignore, to me, represented a loss of control on my part so it would make me angry and I would often lose it. Of course this is an ineffective technique to regain control but it was how I was raised so I didn't know better. I didn't have any of the right tools. This sight is helping with that. I have spent most of my life hiding because fighting with people was always frustrating and drained my energy. It wasn't worth it. There is a better way.

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  67. If being ignored is the issue, then there so very many ways to get the sphinx to communicate. Some are even legal.

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  68. Gabriel-
    lol. Thats not really the issue. The issue was I didn't know why it bothered me and I wasn't equipped to handle it. Since I've discovered that I'm--different--I've been learning rather rapidly. I wanted control. By getting upset I was actuality giving it to them. Don't get me wrong getting angry at first got me what I wanted because it was a surprise. Once the shock wore off and they realized I was going to just keep taking they stopped giving. I know that if thats what I wanted I should have gone with the more damaged ones and then I could get away with the physical control but thats no fun. I don't hit because that would be stupid,(legally speaking) and the ones I can get away with hitting are just as annoying because I like the argument. Besides I've wanted none of that. Its just all I could get with my limited social control. I'm learning so I can move up.

    I'm not what you would call a successful sociopath. I'm a run of the mill loser because I don't know what I'm doing and I didn't know what was "wrong" with me. Thats all changing.

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  70. I think a lot of people, sociopath or not can relate to the idea of being incensed at being ignored by certain people at certain times. Why and how we react to it is the difference, no?

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  71. Amelia, absolutely. Like you said no one likes it. Sociopaths have different reasons for the way they respond but in general they don't have the impulse control to walk away; until its no longer worth it. It can get dangerous depending on how far they are willing to go get the attention they want.

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  72. Aerianne: I don't think my current city would even rank. Maybe the one I just left. At least you've got warm weather, anyway.

    It Is What It Is: "I didn't know what was "wrong" with me." This sounds dangerously like blaming your weaknesses on a personality disorder.

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  74. Postmodern- Thats exactly it. Before, I did think there was something "wrong" with me. It was sort of a sarcastic reference to how most people see it.

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  75. On an unrelated note, I did not know that attaching my Google account to this allowed me to delete posts. I can finally stop the occasional double posts. Yay.

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  76. My weaknesses, by the way, are a result of being raised in an almost fanatical religious environment built on allot of anger and personal childhood issues. Its just how i learned to deal with people. that has little or nothing to do with the fact that I'm "different".

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  77. Hi. Haven't read this thread, I'm still at this shoot and bored out of my fucking mind.

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  78. Medusa, I was just wondering about you and the commercial.

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  79. Any details on what it's about, yet, Medusa? What happens when you film a Gorgon, anyway?

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  80. "What happens when you film a Gorgon, anyway?"
    Anything the Gorgon damn well pleases!

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  81. it is what it is said My weaknesses, by the way, are a result of being raised in an almost fanatical religious environment built on allot of anger and personal childhood issues.

    issues are synonymous with religion are they not ? what makes your situation so much better ?

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  83. You guys are dumb.

    Anyway. Aerianne, the commercial is for this thing that people use.

    I had to pretend to be an extrovert for 8 hours in 4" heels and a cold wind. Exhausting.

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  84. Some other me- I don't believe my situation was better. I don't understand when I said it was. Maybe you could explain to me how I said it was better. lol. I'm here for answers as much as anything else. Because of those issues "synonymous with religion" I have been deprived of actuality learning how to deal with people and manipulate them. By no means dose that make my situation better, or even worse for that matter. lol I'm not here bragging about how horrible my life was. that would be just retarded. lol. I'm amused by how sensitive allot of people on a blog for sociopaths seem to be about others definitions of a sociopath. like you have something to prove. Thats what i like about it. I have nothing to prove. I don't need to. I'm here to discuss it. if you think there is another answer please let me know. I will look into that to. I'm new here folks. I don't know what the game is. I'm not the smartest but by no means am I stupid or a push over. lol. being elusive with me will only make you look stupid.

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  85. @PMS

    Silly billy! Why that whistling noise from your head in a cross wind, you gorgeous empty vessel!

    x

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  86. @UKan

    When you said you went to university, I assume it was to be studied by others? Single cell organisms etc?

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  87. Some other me- I don't believe my situation is better. I don't understand when I said it was. Maybe you could explain to me how I said it's better. :) I'm here for answers as much as anything else. Because of those issues "synonymous with religion" I have been deprived of actuality learning how to deal with and manipulate people. By no means dose that make my situation better, or even worse for that matter. I'm not here bragging about how horrible my life was. that would just be retarded. :).

    I'm amused by how sensitive allot of people on a blog for sociopaths seem to be about others definitions of a sociopath. Like you have something to prove. Thats what I like about it. I have nothing to prove. I don't need to. I'm here to discuss it. If you think there is another answer please let me know. I will look into that to. I'm new here folks. I don't know what the game is. I'm not the smartest but by no means am I stupid or a push over. Bing elusive with me will only make you look stupid. :)

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  88. Piss off fool, go bore someone else with your self deluded worth

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  89. @Ukan B. A. Knob (Anon 1:49 AM): For your edification, should you decide to take the name of your betters again:

    1. UKan does not follow up the parts of his name with periods. (UKan B A Knob, not UKan B.A. Knob)

    2. UKan's not a six year old, so he uses more creative words than knob.

    3. UKan is literate enough to spell tadpole correctly.

    4. "I can appreciate you using me rusty, for a good cause. I have to give you credit." Just. Ha.

    And, finally, and perhaps most obviously:

    5. UKan: "I don't make stupid refrences to private parts, fart jokes, and kid comments." You: "You showed his arse, and it whistles."

    Do you need more, or I have I made it perfectly clear, yet, that your "ruse" (a label sullies the good name of ruses everywhere) was not only unsuccessful, but childishly transparent?

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  90. Sorry, "(a label sullies the good name of ruses everywhere)" should read "(a label which sullies the good name of ruses everywhere)".

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  91. PMS, why didn't you just use your google account to delete that mistake?

    ReplyDelete
  92. @PatheticMoaningSimpleton

    Please don't stop the entertainment, you're so, well how can I put it; predictable! x

    ReplyDelete
  93. Medusa, that does sound painfully exhausting, in more ways than one.

    ReplyDelete
  94. You guys are dumb.

    No Medusa, they are special (speshal?).

    ReplyDelete
  95. Ok. I appreciate you now. The games we can play! You did this whilst I slept. How amusing.

    ReplyDelete

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