Saturday, October 2, 2010

Sociopath for a sister

A reader asked about yesterday's "creepy attachment to family" criteria for sociopaths. Here is a good description of what I'm talking about, from a sociopathic reader about her sister:
I guess my sister is like that constant fix that I need. She knows my faults, and doesn't judge me for it. She doesn't know everything, but with what she knows, she still cares. Even when I make her feel bad, she sticks by me. It's strange. It's like I want to push her to the edge to see how far I can take it, to see if she will leave me. I know she won't, which is why I keep on pushing. She even has enough courage at times to put me in my place when I'm being too much of an ass, and I cherish that. This love is like an obsession, a selfish engulfing obsession. Once I realize that I have a form of feeling to love I get controlling, and don't ever want to let go. I get smothering, I get frightening. I, in a way, give myself the title of master, she becomes my pet. I take care of her, but punish her if she makes me upset. I give her whatever she wants, knowing down the line, when I want something from her, she better give it. It's oddly never violent, I have never hit her. She has my respect for putting up with my shit, and staying. It's not a warm love. It's not a pleasant love, it's not a kind love. It's a soul and mind consuming love. It's a parasite, and it feeds on her kindness and love for me until she can no longer play host. Haven't gotten to that point yet...

I can say that I love my sister. Though I use her, manipulate her, and used to treat her horribly when we were younger, I do love her. It's controlling, and very selfish, empty in feeling, and always has to work out in my favor, but I do love her. I don't ever get the "warm" and "tingly" feeling around her, but there is a joy that I experience, almost the same joy I experience when I am hurting someone.

Through writing this, I realized my behavior acts out when I am not near her. Now that I am closer to her my impulses have calmed. I'm going to see my sister next coming weekend. I do miss being around her. It's nice to not have to act around someone, to let parts of my walls down. Looking forward to seeing her, and her waste of skin, air, and space husband XD.

169 comments:

  1. "It's nice to not have to act around someone, to let parts of my walls down."

    Within my family, this was the entire basis of our attachment to each other, especially since there were no empaths in my immediate family. Both parents and all three children were sociopathic, with each of us manifesting it differently. The game-playing and jockeying for control were often epic. We showed our familial love by allowing each other to live another day, and by grudgingly submitting in awe and respect to superior gamesmanship.

    My elder sister was undoubtedly the master socio in the family, managing to dominate four simultaneous games at all times, while the rest of us couldn't maintain that level of divided focus for that duration at a consistently high intensity.

    She recently died, the last of my birth family, and it's odd to no longer have that dynamic. I suppose that sense of oddness is what I have in place of grief and sadness.

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  2. Okay, this is trange. This completely goes against all my apparently wrong beliefs in sociopaths. There is something new each time...

    Socipaths can love now? How is it considered love when it's selfish and self serving? How to they even know it's love if they never experienced it?

    Gabriel:

    First of all my condolences. I guess even for you guys losing a family member, no matter what way you grieved, is always a painful thing.
    Second, your home sounded chaotic. Were you even able to function with all of that going on? And were every single one of you aware of what you were? How could you get any form of peasure in manipulating when all of you were the same? Wouldn't the behavior eventually cancel out, wouldn't you get bored?

    If the original poster decides to comment(sometimes they do), why do you feel compelled to treat her so horribly when you know she doesn't want anything but love from you? I sense that you feel a little bad for how you treat her, and if you do, why not just simply STOP. You seem, like most sociopaths, to know when you need to hold back on urges to destroy people, why not do this with her. I mean she's your sister for God's sake.

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  4. A whole family of sociopaths? Sounds unlikely.**

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    1. Being a sociopath is either genetic or enviorment. You should read up on it. I say its mostly genetic.

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  7. Well, to me love includes respect, affection, undying dedication, and honesty. Also a warm feeling and joy when around that person. I can feel good around a friend, be honest with them, and give them respect, and that is a form of love, but to have that generous affection, and dedication to do anything for them, makes it a more personal, deeper love, the kind I would give to my family, or even lover. That's just my definition though.

    Are you pointing out that their definition of love may be different than mine? If so, that makes complete sense. My definition isn't the same as everone elses, but I would assume most people have the same views of love. You were right, wow...

    Thanks Aerianne XD

    What's with the hating of sister's husbands. Another poster wanted to harm the husband too...

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  8. Jesse: I feel love for lots of people. It's just that it lacks the storybook quality that you seem to require in every interaction. I love my closest friends in the same way that I love a good book. I may become annoyed when the book takes an unpleasant turn, but ultimately I will continue reading it and remember the experience as a good one.

    It's very much like how the reader acted. I define a select few people as my "family", my favorites. I groomed each and every one of them over the course of weeks or months to be resilient enough to handle my manipulations without the usual feeling of being used. And I'm obsessed, possessive, and selfish, like a child is with his favorite toys. And I get angry when someone breaks my toys, which is equivalent to the normal desire to protect your loved ones, I think.

    "It's controlling, and very selfish, empty in feeling, and always has to work out in my favor, but I do love" them.

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  10. To fulfill some of your requirements: I respect my little family more than anyone else on the planet, it's just that that isn't saying much. I am affectionate, as far as they know or care. Clearly I'm obsessed, which is dedication of a sort. I'm not honest with anyone. My little family just gets a different set of lies. I get joy around them, it's just not from their presence. It's from how much they enjoy me, and how susceptible they are to all my little manipulations. It's cute how much the miss me. They talk about me like I died since I left. And when I go back, things'll be just as I left them.

    So 4/4's not bad, eh?

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  11. wouldn't you ever want to be someone's pet, Postmodern? give them joy?

    who (or what) do you bow down to?

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  12. the sanskrit words are definitions for varieties of love not synonyms for love. In which case I gueds English also has various words for love:
    akagkaram means egotism which would be narcissim im English. The other words we have for love might be: infatuation, desire, adoration, passion.
    I think it is the idea that love is meant to define something pure and unconditonal that makes
    us think the only word that fits that definition is "love" . Also why you might have trouble believing sociopaths can love if that is your idea of love.

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  13. It's sick and twisted, but for once I think I really get it. This love does make you happy, the people you guys care for, but in the end it's still all about what they can do for you later when you decide to manipulate and use them.

    Postmodern:

    How many friends do you have, and are they aware you treat them horribly on purpose?
    And the thing you said about your family, are they aware that they are "toys"?

    I'm a little delayed, but I just now get the whole list you made out, in my requirements of what my kind of love is....cute.

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  14. This story is interesting because this points something out for me I have always wondered about my personal relationships. I defiantly have a introvert personality type, and I usually only have one friend at a time. Almost non of the friends I'v had in the past would get along with each other. This is important because the only common factor is that these friends don't judged me. They don't say I'm wrong for thinking the way I do. Also they always have more to offer than I do. They buy me things and though this goes against how I was raised it doesn't seem to bother me. Granted I'm not nearly that "mean" but thats not to say that I haven't been in my younger days. I do remember having some friends I would torment physical and mentally but it would always stop when they had met there limit. The more I'm on this blog the more I realize how much of a sociopath I am. Maybe a little bit of a narcissist as well considering I can't help but relate every thing back to myself.

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    1. Because you saw their reaction and realized that you had to stop. A sociopath, the same as narcissism would not care if they caused harm. They would keep doing it out of the pleasure it would give them. My sister was a sociopath. I loved and feared her. She broke my foot a finger permenitly. Injured my back .hurt herself and told my mother I tried to kill her. That's just the tip of the iceburg. I think she targeted me bc I was by nature a kind person so she got in my head (before the age of 8yrs). Messed with my feelings and learner how to manipulate me. She knew how to make me love her.

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    2. Ruined my self confidence by manipulating and alienated my friends by spreading lies about me sexualy attacking other students. All along I believed only she loved me. I recently am remembering.

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  15. To Gati (I think you were talking to me):

    I found it hard to believe because it seems so cold, and one-sided. I didn't (still kinda don't) see the plus in being loved by a sociopath when they treat people this way, especially the way the reader described her relationship with her sister. Nothing she stated seemed kind, or loving. Maybe the people being loved by sociopaths are understanding, patient, and like that kind of "selfish, suffocating, obssessive" love that sociopaths seem to give. If that isn't the case, I don't see what plus comes out of this. Blood IS thicker than water I guess...

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  16. gati, is there a Sanskrit word for "love"?

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  17. Zoe: I give plenty of people joy. But no, I will not be their pet.

    I bow to nothing and no one (not the no one here). I have no desire or need to be the apparent leader of the group, but ultimately I am the heart of it. I bring together the disparate members, I build the lies that unify us... I am the man behind the man behind the man.

    @Jesse: About a half dozen that I consider my family (I call them the братва), and I wouldn't say I harm them on purpose. That would require that I understand how my actions might harm them, and I really don't. I try to help them, more often than not, it's just that being nice and supportive is rarely the most helpful thing.

    And yes, they know they're toys. In some cases, I've come right out and told a few of them how I arranged some bit of their lives that makes them happy. In other cases it was clear by their actions that they were acting as extensions of my will. They're comfortable with it, I think.

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  18. wow.....just, wow. This is so boggling...

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  19. Postmodern, would you not bow before the universe that created you?

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  20. I am unsure that the universe even exists, Zoe, so no. And why should I bow to it even if it does? By what right does it claim credit for my creation?

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  21. the universe may not exist, but i will assume you do. would you bow before yourself?

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  22. Jesse,

    Your idea of love is a fantasy. It’s all ideal but that’s a tall order.

    Undying dedication is unlikely for most people. That's not really a healthy way to expect love and it certainly isn't a healthy way to give it. I can be honest with you in three ways: 1. I'll tell you the truth because I don't care what you think. 2. If I am honest with you it's because I trust you and I know you will never use any of the truths I tell you as bullets to use one me in the future. 3. Because it may be the right thing to do even if it may hurt you. Of course people lie to do damage control too.
    Respect and affection are major. It’s just hard to keep it going in a relationship, especially marriage. That’s work. But very possible and wonderful.

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    1. I think a lot of it was a coping stratage. I was trapped in the same family, I had to adapt to survive.She messed with my head. Iwas brain washed. I haven't seen her since 1990. I am just now able to remember what happened to me. Repressed memories.

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  23. I am no more sure of my own existence, Zoe. No, i would not bow to myself. What would be the point? I already agree with me.

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  24. I'm not sure if the universe exists either. But, what is more probable? That we are here or not. Even if we are not..we perceive that we are. With that said eveyone else perceives us too. So, we have to assume responsibility for what we perceive. That's all we have to go on, for now and now is eternal. Does that make any sense at all?!! Talk about abstract thinking..jeez.


    And about the article. If my mother were reading this, I would be the sister. But it's not because I love her..I just put up with her because she has no one else.

    Grace

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  25. Grace,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality

    This section especially: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality#Nick_Bostrom

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  26. It sounds like the both of you(Posymodern and Grace) may be struggling with Solipsism. And has anyone else realised that this is like, majorly off topic?.**

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  28. So Grace,

    You have a sociopath sister? Or mother?

    This is kinda of ironic. The sociopaths think they are being loved when they might just be being delt with because of pity of their lonliness.

    Do you think this is the case with most who are loved, or "love" sociopaths?

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    1. I wasn't pitty. I didn' t know what she did behind my back. Mostly it was how she aceted in my presents. Then tuned on me behind my back. Then was"kind and caring ".

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  29. @ Anon**: I'm not a solipsist. Solipsism requires that I believe in my own existence, and I don't.

    @Jesse: What exactly is ironic about it?

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  30. The possibility of the player being played. The sociopath playing the sibling, claiming to love them and thinking it is love they are getting when in reality it may just be the sibling dealing with them, and not loving them.

    This is ofcourse a speculation. Not saying this is true. If it is, that's funny to me.

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  31. There's a difference between being tolerated and being enabled. Grace tolerates her mother, it sounds like, out of a desire not to leave her alone. The reader's sister enables them, without question, just as my "family" enables me.

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  32. i don't see the difference between being enabled and tolerated. isn't tolerating someone just a form of enabling?

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  33. ...Oh, okay. Enabling. They enable it by caring. Okay, makes sense.

    I would really like to know the deal with Grace's family, or mother (is this whos she's often talking about when she referes to knowing from experience?)

    Never thought I'd say this, but I actually miss Daniel. When he isn't being a dick he actually has a lot of insightful things to say. I would love to hear his POV on this topic, if it rings true to his family or loved ones. Thank for your experience with this Postmodern, Gabreiel, even Grace, and the other commentors that relate to this. This would help alot with my paper.

    I'm gonna check by later to see if the reader actually responds to me.

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  34. Anonymous said...
    It sounds like the both of you(Posymodern and Grace) may be struggling with Solipsism. And has anyone else realised that this is like, majorly off topic?.**


    no it's dead on...

    Postmodern does not bow down before man, god, himself or the universe. these are all concepts. i'm guessing many sociopaths wouldn't. so if you don't bow down before a concept how do you bow down before love? love is just a concept.

    the only thing real is the pure experience which as soon as we perceive it becomes a concept, the domain of the ego.

    so Postmodern, wouldn't you bow down to the pure experience? that would be like bowing down to nothing and no one.

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  35. That's much closer, yes. Though I wouldn't say I bow so much as attack and consume experiences. I cannot allow passivity in myself without inviting stagnation, so I cultivate an eternal war within and around me. Where others wish for stillness, I reject it and demand conflict.

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  36. Jesse,

    I don’t know if my mother is a sociopath at all. We, my family and I, believe she has BPD. My therapist thinks so too. I don’t really want to get into it here because it would be too detailed and I don’t know how to explain her otherwise. If you have a specific question maybe I can reply that way.

    I put up with her because she would be alone…so I guess it’s for moral reasons. She thinks I hang around because I need her. It’s really the other way around. She does help with my son and I do appreciate that but I could manage without her if I had to. My brother stays away from her for the most part. Bla Bla.

    I don’t talk about her here much. I talk about my ex bf who is a sociopath. That’s why I came here.

    Grace

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  37. PostmodernSociopath said...
    That's much closer, yes. Though I wouldn't say I bow so much as attack and consume experiences. I cannot allow passivity in myself without inviting stagnation, so I cultivate an eternal war within and around me. Where others wish for stillness, I reject it and demand conflict.


    now i'm on foreign territory. why does stillness feel like stagnation and not peace? is an orgasm then something to be consumed or the ultimate stagnation?

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  38. Your right Zoe, I can now see how it all relates. Postmodern, do you ever wish that perhaps one day you will no longer feel the need to cultivate this conflict within and around you and instead strive for the stillness which "normal people" long for. That said there are studies which suggest that the symptoms of sociopathy begin to fade during the middle aged period.**

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  39. The OP has it dead on with regards love.
    As many have already said whats to say that love as we experience it isn't true because it does not stand to your experience as another human being.

    The way I see it is if it looks like coffee and tastes like coffee, well then its probably coffee who cares if it was made differently IE it's not how you love that defines love its the end result.

    I am going to post some things from dictionary.com that defines love that happen to be quite involved with my own thoughts on love regardless of how different my love is in other areas.

    dictionary.com - personal attachment,

    sexual passion or desire (my wife),

    concern for the well-being,

    the benevolent affection of god for his creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God: Not saying I am god but as postmodern said, usually those we "love" we have spent a lot of time grooming and in a sense creating so why not "love" them.

    to need or require; benefit greatly from: the way a plant loves sunlight.

    out of affection or liking; for pleasure.


    Now these are all things I derive from my relationships or from people I will say I "love" but I can guarantee I did not arrive there the same way someone else did, so to reiterate love isn't so much the journey but the end destination.

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  40. @Zoe: Stillness makes me restless, and restlessness makes me dangerous and wrathful. I've lived a dozen vastly different lives, even in my short time on the planet. To settle into one role just feels... off.

    As for orgasm, I am largely unconcerned with my own. It's just a physical function. I enjoy it, certainly, but I also enjoy going for walks. It's neutral for me. Conversely, I gain great pleasure from bringing others to orgasm. In that case, it is a matter of consumption. The noises, the expressions... everything a unique and perfect illustration of ecstasy. It's intoxicating.

    @Anon**: No, I don't particularly. The stillness that you speak of is a lack of conflict, a point where one can regain one's balance, if I read you correctly. I find my balance in warfare, physical or social. To be in conflict with stillness and to appear still amidst conflict is the ideal.

    I have read those studies, and my reading of them suggested that they tend to fade at that age... if they fade at all. If I am among the group whose outlook fades with time, then it will hopefully happen slowly enough to lessen cognitive dissonance.

    That said, such thinking assumes that this taste for conflict is a symptom of sociopathy, and I don't think that that is the case. I came to this worldview consciously. Then again, conscious decision is likely just a construction of the human mind, so perhaps the two are related.

    So very much to think on.

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  41. There is peace in chaos.

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  42. "I have read those studies, and my reading of them suggested that they tend to fade at that age... if they fade at all. If I am among the group whose outlook fades with time, then it will hopefully happen slowly enough to lessen cognitive dissonance."

    In my experience, it did fade with middle age. I miss the exuberant conflict and consumption you spoke of earlier, PMS. For me, it didn't really matter that it faded slowly, I'm still left with far too much cognitive dissonance to be comfortable with. No longer energetic and passionate enough for the warfare, but not suited to peace.

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  43. How depressing, Gabriel. A warning to be heeded, though. I suppose I shall have to prepare myself well ahead of time, as I do, and hope that I can acclimate to peace before it becomes an issue. Fingers crossed.

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  44. My ex is in his early 40s. His extreme cognitive dissonance is palpable.

    I'd be interested to see how/if he can manages to reconcile himself.

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  45. Why are my typos so lolcats?

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  47. He's also extremely attached to his sister and his mother, and he looks up to his late sociopathic father whilst at the same time hating him. He even wears his old 70s clothes; it has a bit of Ed Gein creep factor to it.

    A quote worth remembering from this past Valentine's Day:

    "You are not my valentine, my mom is!"

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  48. You may fare differently, PMS. At what I presume to be your age, I was far less introspective and self-aware than you have evidenced. As my conflict with the outside world has diminished into an uneasy peace, it's perhaps more of a case of the battlefield changing to my internal world. I was less prepared for that battle than I believe you may be.

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  49. That's comforting if nothing else, Gabriel. I'll certainly take it as a compliment. If I might ask, though, I wonder what makes you think so about me. You have the weight of experience, so perhaps you see something to which I am blind. I always prefer enlightenment to ignorance, so any insight is helpful.

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  50. PMS, the manner in which you discuss your thoughts, beliefs and philosophies shows that you've given them more thought than many other young sociopaths. That takes a willingness for introspection. Just compare how you give and take with other posters here -- both socio and empath -- as compared to the various tiresome anonymous children whose only contributions are boasts and name-calling.

    That is what would give me hope that you'll be more prepared.

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  51. Let me clear something up.

    The 2nd Anon in the previous blog post (the one with the vitriol) was UKan.

    He was making a point in his own special UKan way by acting like that. And that point was that PMS was lacking real-life experience. He was also trying to catch me off guard (again), though it didn't work, and I gave him a bit of a taste of his own medicine.

    He may not like me saying this, but I think it was his way of trying to help.

    To quote PMS:

    it's just that being nice and supportive is rarely the most helpful thing.

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  52. To act without full analysis invites self-destruction, and to fail to act because of overanalysis is much the same. I try to actively define my beliefs rather than passively allowing them to define me. I have labels which I apply in different contexts (nihilist, egoist, sociopath, etc.), but these are for the convenience of others.

    If nothing else, I am glad to make a good impression.

    Medusa: I thought I made it fairly clear that I wasn't tricked, in any fashion. And I'm not entirely certain why UKan would waste his time trying to prove a point about me. Unless he really, really likes me! D'aww. <3 UKan

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  53. And I've freely admitted (a number of times now) a lack of real-world experience. There's hardly anything to prove when there's a confession on record.

    (lol, the captcha is "rational")

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  54. Well, to be honest I'm not entirely sure if his point was to make you see something, or if he was just trying to prove his superiority in terms of the game theory that you often mention.

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  55. Game theory, by definition, is an abstraction of reality. My knowledge of game theory is superior to his, undoubtedly. He exceeds me in the application of certain methods, equally undoubtedly. But that's to be expected. I'm sure when he was my age, he was nowhere near as in control of himself as I am. Hell, he barely keeps himself in check now. :/

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  56. "To act without full analysis invites self-destruction, and to fail to act because of overanalysis is much the same"

    How true that is! I'll remember that.

    Grace

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  57. Game theory, by definition, is an abstraction of reality. My knowledge of game theory is superior to his, undoubtedly. He exceeds me in the application of certain methods, equally undoubtedly. But that's to be expected. I'm sure when he was my age, he was nowhere near as in control of himself as I am. Hell, he barely keeps himself in check now.

    Agreed.

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  58. Hello Jesse,

    I have been lurking here for a month or so, only posting a few times, and your comments never seize to amaze me with the simpleness that is involved. I usually do my best to never respond to you, your comments are usually so naive I struggle not to go off, but at the same time I realize that you are ignorant to this, and you just want to understand. Though it is more than irritating, I commend your need to understand. We can be very interesting :)

    Since I was the one who wrote this about my sister, and you commented and even called me out, I feel compelled to answer some of your questions, but I'm afraid I can't. ALL of what you asked I already explained, and it was summed up, again, even though what I wrote was pretty clear, by Gabriel, and especially Postmodern. The way I wrote it IS the best way I can desrcibe it. You seem to understand, now, that our love is not completely like yours, and there is no point in hurting that brain of yours to understand it any further than the examples given. The love is good enough for my sister, so that's all that really matters, right?

    It is what it is.

    Have a great day Jesse. Make us look good in your paper XD! And I really hope I made your day by responding to you. You can sleep peacfully tonight now.

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  59. What if the pet realy thinks you are pathetic, and only puts up with you because your family?

    How would that make you feel?

    What happens when the pet has had enough and doesn't want anything to do with you anymore?

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  60. Then they can continue to think so while I continue to extract what I want from them. I don't care about their opinions, just my ability to use them.

    Indifferent?

    Then they leave. So what? There's a rube born every minute, and I'm more than happy to take the useful ones and make them my brothers.

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  61. Medusa said...

    He's also extremely attached to his sister and his mother, and he looks up to his late sociopathic father whilst at the same time hating him. He even wears his old 70s clothes; it has a bit of Ed Gein creep factor to it.

    A quote worth remembering from this past Valentine's Day:

    "You are not my valentine, my mom is!"


    The Sociopathic momma's boy.
    Wants to control his women and be THE BOSS, but can't cut the apron strings from mom.
    You can't help feeling pitty for sommeone who is sooooo pathetic.

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  63. It's a useful strategy when you have no real community of your own, Aerianne.

    The upshot for you is that in large enough communities it's easier to rally after such people pass through, making the whole unit stronger, more cohesive. In that way, the chaos they introduce is a positive.

    In small communities, though, individuals like myself and pairs like that couple are quite capable of splintering that "family" if there is no benefit to a longterm strategy. Generally, though, I try to make the group I latch onto stronger, if only to make it easier to take advantage of their largess.

    A vampiric lifestyle is attractive to some, but it is more in my interest to be selectively parasitic, even to the point of symbiosis.

    As an integrated member of the group it is easier to manipulate the group dynamic, choosing new members who will increase the strength of the group linearly and the strength of the manipulator geometrically, or even exponentially.

    I'm not fond of that couple's methods, but such is the way of unevolved predators. Eventually they will encounter the "bigger fish" problem and they'll get theirs. Take comfort in that, if nothing else.

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  65. Luckily for the empathetic (and successful sociopaths), while karma is a crock of shit, the law of the jungle still rules the day.

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  67. PostmodernSociopath said...
    Then they can continue to think so while I continue to extract what I want from them. I don't care about their opinions, just my ability to use them.

    Indifferent?

    Then they leave. So what? There's a rube born every minute, and I'm more than happy to take the useful ones and make them my brothers.


    How do you feel when you are used?

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  68. Difficult to say. Depending on the circumstances, anywhere from indifferent to vengeful. Are you trying to get me to come to some sort of revelation, Iamme? Clearly you don't like sociopaths, or perhaps you just dislike my attitude in particular. If there's a point you'd like to make, I'd prefer that you just make it and stop pussyfooting about.

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  69. My thoughts exactly PMS. I don't even need to say anything, you are on point everytime.

    Lamme, if she were only putting up with me because I am family, then her continuing to do things for me is her enabling the behavior we both are aware that I have.I'll keep going as long as she is accepting. I couldn't care less how she truly feels because in the end I still get what I need from her. And if it ever comes to that point of her getting tired of it all, and she does happen to kick me to the curb, then I will simply replace her. I will be bothered having to start the process all over again, and losing someone that did allow me to be myself, but there are always replacements, even if it isn't as good as the first, they'll suffice.

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  70. Justice:

    I am glad you responded. I will sleep better tonight, thanks...

    I do get it now, and I admit that it takes me a while to get it. I get so wrapped up in my thoughts that I write things down before letting what I read sink in. I noticed that alot here.

    But yeah, I understand. I won't ever get past the being disturbed part of all this "love" you guys give, but I do understand that there are all forms of love, even selfish destructive ones. If she can deal, and does love you, then yeah, that is good enough.

    I will try my best to make you guys seem decent. It will be hard though, because I am still not convinced that you are. I have to let go some of the personal anger towards your type, but the prejudice of sociopaths is slowly fading. The main part I still want answers to, and will never understand, is why they, you guys, can't, or refuse, to change.

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  72. Are you trying to get me to come to some sort of revelation, Iamme?

    Not at all PmS.

    Clearly you don't like sociopaths,
    or perhaps you just dislike my attitude in particular.

    I don't like that you Clearly think I don't like Sociopaths,as you have no idea what I think.

    If there's a point you'd like to make, I'd prefer that you just make it and stop pussyfooting about.

    I am not trying to make any point, just asking questions out of curiosity.
    And believe me Pms,I never pussyfoot about.

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  73. I think what Aerianne said relates to the reason I tend to give when people who are aware of me ask that question. I don't feel like there's anything wrong with how I operate. Change requires internal effort, and if nothing's broken, why try to change it?

    For instance, I have no problem educating myself if I'm ignorant of a subject. I take my lack of knowledge as a deficiency which requires improvement. Conversely, my lack of empathy, or remorse or a "soul" or what have you, does not register as a deficiency, so I have no motivation to change it.

    This, I think, is part of why there are no effective treatments. Just as you can't treat a mental retard until they have normal intelligence, you can't treat a sociopath until the have normal empathetic responses.

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  74. You have another fan Postmodern, lol.

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  75. @Jesse: So it would seem. Could just be UKan being a child again, though.

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  76. Is there just no need to have these normal responses, or you can't. Then again, the way you relate it to a retard, that does makes sense. I have yet to see a mentally handicapped person suddenly gain normal intelligence.

    Do you think there will ever be a day when sociopaths wake up, and change for the better. Like if a person has sociopathic tendencies due to improper upbringing, but gets older, more mature, and then behaves accordingly. In my research most say that sociopathy is something you're born with. I think the environment a person is raised in makes them this way. And because of that is why I believe with a different environment and positive reinforcement a sociopath can change, if they really wanted to.

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  78. Also there is no effective treatment, because whatever treatment is available can actually be used to further a sociopath's sociopathic ways.

    Psychotherapy, for instance. It's just an opportunity for the patient to learn more about how people think and work. And another opportunity to manipulate someone: the therapist.

    So treatment can actually make sociopathy "worse" and the patient all that much more powerful.

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  79. What sort of environment do you think I grew up in, Jesse?

    And yes, if Gabriel's account and some studies are to be believed, there is a time when the antisocial behavior begins to fade.

    Aerianne, I'm filing that one away. It's pleasantly concise.

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  80. UKan does that? Is that what all that was yesterday? I didn't even want to bother with that.

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  81. Do you think there will ever be a day when sociopaths wake up, and change for the better.

    The problem with this statement, is that it contains value judgments. Who says the sociopath is the one that is asleep? And really, who is to say what is "better"?

    Like if a person has sociopathic tendencies due to improper upbringing, but gets older, more mature, and then behaves accordingly.

    What's interesting, is that it seems that as an intelligent sociopath gets older, the more s/he actually does behave accordingly. Because it's often to their advantage to do so.

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  82. "...can't treat a sociopath until the have normal empathetic responses" should be "...can't treat a sociopath until they have normal empathetic responses".

    Also a fair point, Medusa. I only had a brief experience with a psychiatrist about some conduct issues in my childhood, so I can't speak much to the long term relationship, but I definitely lied my way into a "minor anger issues, but otherwise fine" sort of writeoff, so I got out of it after a few sessions.

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  84. I'm not too sure actually. I don't know much about you. I'm not saying you were abused, or anything like that, but even something as simple as a divorce, or being teased can cause a person to switch.

    Putting that aside, I cannot argue with the recent comments left. You can't force a conscience. Even I know that. And I have heard of cases where sociopaths fooled the therapists...plenty of scenarios of that actually. Pretty sad.

    Sociopathy fading, wonder if boredom of acting is the reason, or maturity in controling impulses.

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  85. Another thing I learned said that it you desire a certain behavior out of a socio/psychopath, your best bet at getting it is to make it beneficial to them.

    Law of Power #13, basically.

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  86. Why would someone who doesn't feel empathy want to, when they think that people who do feel it are week,pathetic loosers.

    Their are enough people in the world beating themselves up over feeling that way about themselves.

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  87. Sounds like dealing with a spoiled kid.

    I thought I'd be able to catch Justice...oh well, atleast I am getting some answers for sociopaths in general. She seems to agree with whomever is speaking about socios, from what I gathered...tough different, you all share the same basic qualities.

    Medusa:

    I recall you stating you aren't a sociopath. What do you consider yourself. You know an awful lot about them to not be one.

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  88. @Jesse,

    Boredom and impulse-control, in my case, may explain the "fading". Perhaps even fewer impulses to be controlled. Still, I don't want you to have the wrong impression. The antisocial tendencies faded, yes. However, I wouldn't want you to think I developed empathy and a conscience where there were none. I'm still a sociopath, but I've "retired" from exuberant games, for the most part.

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  89. Sounds like dealing with a spoiled kid.

    Not really. This is how most people work.

    And what am I? Nothing, really. I don't know and don't much care.

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  90. Another thing I learned said that it you desire a certain behavior out of a socio/psychopath, your best bet at getting it is to make it beneficial to them.

    Manipulate the Manipulater.

    You would think a Sociopath would see through that.

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  92. I've noticed that the happier I am, the more magnanimously I behave.

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  94. And the game ends when the socipath dies, and leaves all their assets to charity, instead of family.

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  95. Gabriel:

    I get what you mean. Antisocial is more the lack of respect for people in general, and low range of emotional varieties, not so much the impulses, and boredom. I missed that completely at first, lol. Wow.

    Hey, Lamme? Um, who are you addressing when you write these comments? It gets kinda confusing. It's like you're talking to everyone and no one at the same time. Not trying to stir up drama, but yeah, just sayin'...

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  96. @Gabriel: I'd be interested in corresponding sometime, if you'd care to. I'm curious about your experiences as you've aged. Forewarned is forearmed, and all that. My email is around, either here or on my own chunk of the web.

    If not, I guess I'll just learn the hard way. :D

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  98. Aerianne:

    Are you a sociopath? If you are, I never knew this. I coulda sworn you were the one that stated they were narcissistic. Was that you?

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  99. 'Twas probably me you are thinking of, Jesse. Narcissistic qualities, though I wouldn't say I have a personality disorder.

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  100. But I wouldn't know it if I did, now would I.

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  102. Medusa: You could always pull a Vaknin and get them to make a movie about you.

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  103. I also notice that the older I get, the less I put up with others' bullshit.

    Which could be interpreted as acting/being less empathetic.

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  104. Heh, PMS. Well my narcissism got me in a commercial that's being shot tomorrow... so I'm on my way.

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  105. And look, I'm totally bragging about it.

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  106. Oh wow, yeah, I did get you confused with Medusa, sorry, lol. Approaching normal, that's rich!

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  107. a socio wouldn't die and leave anything! They'd burn through it all, and some of yours, then leave nothing but bills!

    If they are a spender yeah, but some are money hoarders.

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  109. I barely know, and I ain't about to give out any information here anyhow!

    ;)

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  111. This story seems fake. Doesn't seem like how a sociopath would communicate.

    Is Me running a con with this female sociopath act or are these readers real? Why haven't any of them posted in the responses?

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  112. @Jesse no sociopaths can't love, they only can own. If they love you it means you are their property, more like a child with a toy or any physical object but not something emotional.

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  113. @PostmodernSociopath You say you feel love? Prove it.

    Describe what it feels like.

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  114. What? How do you expect me to prove as subjective a thing as that? I think I've described my feeling of it quite extensively. What more do you want?

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  115. @Justice my mistake, looks like you actually do exist. Some of these mysterious readers from ME never respond here and we have no evidence they exist.


    Justice, to control is not the same as to love. To love and properly express love is to have enough self control to protect those you love from your impulses, and to allow those you love to control themselves without getting involved.

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  116. One more thing, Justice if you ever need to figure out how to deal with an empath in a way which will cause the least damage, discuss your actions with an empath and accept advice. This will save you a lot of trouble if you don't understand the social norms.

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  117. Real love is not an emotion.

    What it "feels" like hardly matters except to the person feeling it.

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  118. To put it in cold terms, love is commodity. It's something you give, and something that is given to you.

    The end result of all this giving and receiving is a feeling. This feeling is an effect of love, but it is not love in and of itself.

    You cannot give emotions the way you can give love. For instance, you cannot "give" joy to someone else, although you can certainly cause it.

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  119. The anon wasn't me, medusa. Its someone who wants to get attention, so he thinks by acting like me he will get it.
    I told all of you to stop responding out of respect, because you've been through my shit already.
    I said you were insightful, and Im not taking it back. I don't expect you to know my motives, because I hide them.
    My abuse is always personal. I dont think anyone here would disagree with that. Anons was trite and boring. Frankly I'm insulted.

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  120. Heh.

    Doesn't matter. There is no reason to trust anybody that posts here, or anything that anyone says.

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  121. Medusa love is an emotion pure and simple. Whether you express what you feel in a real way is something else. What it feels like is vitally important.

    Just like you ask a person what being afraid feels like so you know what effect you have on them when they feel that way. To know what a sociopath feels is vitally important to understanding the physiological process, otherwise a sociopath is no different than a corporation.

    If sociopaths can feel love they'll be able to describe how it feels, if they can think love and intellectually experience it, which is what I think is going on, this is not the experience of love. This is playing with things and people for fun and profit.

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  122. So describe how it feels, then. Enlighten us, O Great Lover. Christ, you're worse than Jesse a week ago.

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  123. Tinyconscience, are you in a successful relationship right now?

    Also, your name suggests you see yourself as at least somewhat sociopathic. If so, how would you know what love "feels" like?

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  124. And. If you are not sociopathic, you still must be here for a reason.

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  125. Justice I found your article to be spot on. I treat my girlfriend the same way, and that is exactly how I feel love. I'm glad you were able to share that with the empathetic.
    Postmodern, peace is boring. Someone told me once that I spend my life destroying everything around me. Strangely I thought I was helping everyone, but she is right. I spent my life manipulating, breaking laws, ruining peoples finances, and ruining peoples lives.
    Jesse its difficult for me not to want to abuse you. I will resist.
    I hang out with my girlfriend everyday. I'm very protective of her, but strangely I put her at risk everyday because I need her in my business as a innocent cover. She understands me which is why I give her respect. She's intraverted and used to be naive till she spent time with me in my line of work. She says that every sentence I speak is manipulation. I try not to with her, but I don't understand how to communicate any different. I'm in complete control of the relationship. I try to help her by manipulating her to address her insecurities. I try to teach her how to read people, but sometimes she resists. She fights it sometimes and tells me that I strip the meaning from people.
    Overall that's how my love is.

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  126. Does she seem like she is pretty happy with the relationship overall?

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  127. Tiny what youre saying is ridiculous. How do you explain a emotion. We can wordplay all day here, but its pointless. What your not feeling is love. When I walk away from someone in a relationship they are devestated, and will do anything to get the feeling I gave them back again. They are caught up and intoxicated. They are addicted. You think they get that way because I don't love them?
    Your love is dim, dull, and boring. That's why you get cheated on. Your love is wishful thinking, insecurities, and childhood issues. Its pathetic.

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  128. Yah she's very happy. Her last relationship was with a loser who used what little money she had to buy drugs. He had no job and was a total sponge.

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  129. UKan-
    I was very gratified to read your statement that the tiresome little creature posting as anonymous wasn't you. Though I haven't been on this site for long, I was finding it difficult to believe the assertions of others that you were behind it. Having been at the receiving end of a few of your ad hominem remarks, I couldn't see what benefit it was to regress into that unskilled, juvenile, unfocused attack style. My faith is renewed.

    Tinyconscience -
    From what I understand, and to the level I experience them, all emotions are necessarily subjective, and virtually impossible to describe. I would imagine that what I experience as anger is also different from what empaths experience, but I think it would be safe to say that no-one would mistake it for anything else or claim it's not real anger.

    Also, I can't speak for any other socio, but when I die, my assets (I'm neither a prolific spender nor a hoarder) will be left to my children, with whom I happen to have mutually beneficial relationships. They call their side "love." I call my side "love." That what we are experiencing is different is known but irrelevant to us all.

    I haven't fully examined this distinction, but I think the basis I have for recognizing whether I love someone is the attending estimation I have of the other person and whether I give anything in return. If I benefit from someone and it pleases me sufficiently, and I find that I have some level of respect and protectiveness towards them, I label that love. They choose to allow me to benefit from them, and I reciprocate with what benefits I can offer. Conversely, if I benefit from someone and I hold them in contempt as lesser creatures who deserved no better, then they are objects, not loved ones. Their benefits were not freely offered but seized, and I do not offer them anything in return.

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  130. "Yah she's very happy. Her last relationship was with a loser who used what little money she had to buy drugs. He had no job and was a total sponge."

    I'm glad to see that you disapprove of this kind of treatment UK. This describes my last relationship as well. No drugs though. Tires, a gun, at least 100 packs of cigs and anywhere I wanted to go which always was the city. Good thing I didn't have a job at the time or he would have taken more..silly me, I would have given it to him too. I bet the relationship would have lasted longer too. I'll stop now.

    Grace

    Wow..Saturday night is alright at Sociopathworld. I was busy reading Spinoza..thank you very much Postmodern!! My brain feels like a pretzel right now;)

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  131. Gabriel,

    Your idea and experience of love is one of a sociopath's but it's a mature one. Good for you. I'm sure you're happier now than when you were younger and I'm sure, hope anyway, that you treat people differently.

    Grace

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  132. Grace,

    I can't say I'm any more or less happy than I ever was, nor more mature. However, I suppose any objective observer would say I treat people differently now, though I doubt it's for the reasons polite society might hope. As I get older, I find that my strategies have changed of necessity. I no longer have the abundant energy to constantly find and develop new sources for what I want or need. It's easier to try to maintain some constant sources, and to do that, I must be more patient and reciprocal than before. But, yes, it generally works out to be less openly antisocial than in my youth.

    I don't really think any differently about people, I just try to conserve my energy by being more "green" -- reducing my consumption and recycling.

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  133. Well either way you do these things because they work for you at this time in your life. We all have to be flexible. We all are subject to the environment simply because we breath.

    I'm not very social either. Never have been and it used to bother me but I accept this part of myself. I have one good friend and that's all I need. It does bother me with raising my son though. I should be teaching him to be more social.

    Grace

    Grace

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  135. Socipaths can love now? How is it considered love when it's selfish and self serving? How to they even know it's love if they never experienced it?

    A la Birdick:

    Replace "sociopath" and "they" with "people."

    Are you so sure what you experience is "love" and that it isn't selfish and self serving in some way (albeit emotionally selfish)?

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  137. @Aerianne: "Empaths can reason now? How is it considered reason when it's selfless and emotionally driven? How to they even know it's reason if they never experienced it?"

    You're right, that was easier. :D

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  139. I'll surely have to turn in my membership card, and the special hat we get to wear at conferences. Curses. I did so love that hat.

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  141. Damn it, PMS! You know you aren't supposed to talk about the conferences -- and ESPECIALLY not about the hat! Now they'll ALL want to be one of us.

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  143. @Gabriel: I just can't wait until we get to have conventions like all the special snowflakes in the autie/aspie community. Imagine the press. :D

    If you missed it in the sea of comments, by the way, I'd like to reiterate my interest in correspondence if you're so inclined. I'm always looking to patch up the holes in my own knowledge with the experience of others.

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  144. "Imagine the press."

    Imagine the carnage!

    Yes, perhaps it would benefit me to correspond as well. I'll look you up.

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  145. Poor Aerianne. You will make some sociopath very happy one day.

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  147. "I don't want to be one of you. I just wish I could be Truly Loved by one of you! Whaaaaaa!!!"

    Aerianne,

    Does it matter which one? Would any one of us do? Or was "one" definitive, rather than generic?

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  148. It's Birdick, for sure. He's the lady's man of the blog.

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  150. Wow. Maybe I'm not the oldest one here:)

    Grace

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  152. Neat. I have a seven year sociopath:)

    Grace

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  153. seven year old..lol. A boy. He's really great though.

    Grace

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  155. No Aerianne. His father and I split up a while back. But he has been asking to go out and talk with me. I said I would. The ex socio is a boyfriend I had. He made my sons father(we are still married)look like an angel.

    I was with the sociopath for just a few months. It's been six months since I have seen or heard from him. He owes me money and his ex wife keeps telling me she will make sure he pays me back. She's another nut case. I don't think I'll ever see the money..but that's ok..there's nothing I can do about it.

    Grace

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  157. She tries Aerianne. And she has gone mad in the process. They are in so much debt together it's scary. But she told me all that..not him.

    Grace

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  159. This is in response to the OP although the comments were interesting as well.

    That's exactly how I feel about my own sister. She's the most normal person in our family. I have this zealous protective possessiveness of her. She's mine and knows it. She isn't a pet per se...I have other pets that I get more violently controlling with but she's kind of like a prized possession. I'm barely attached to the rest of my family. They exist to provide me with things I need and have no interest of having a closer relationship with any of them. It's just her. Since realizing it, she takes this kind of narcissistic satisfaction from being the only person I care about. The only times I've ever felt actual anger have been when she's been involved.

    That being said, I'm diagnosed borderline.

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  160. hi

    reading about all of this sibling sociopath cases gives me such a sense of releif& I would like to share my experiences about my elder sister who i suspect is a sociopath.
    My early childhood was controlled by her to the extent where i could hardly develop any sense of identity. Her unexpected anger victimization and bullying tactics kept me from becoming myself. The more i became a controlled limited child, the more she used those to play her strengths. It was like her personality could only flourish if she could see me as a weak and talentless being. And she strove to make me just that. The worst of it was she wanted my gratitude for this behaviour.

    By late teens she had honed her technique. Though we had hardly any communication with each other she waged a silent war. She had a uncanny understanding of my weak spots and self doubts and she preyed on them. So good was she that my parents had hardly a notion of what was afoot. My mother had developed schizophrenia so it was no use telling her.

    Now i am settld with a happy home and child and husband but she is forever seeking me out to get things done and then when the work does get done does not given any gratitude
    I have now cut off all communication with her but she wants to cling on to me. In the absence of any response from me she is now turning all family members against me. Its eerie being the focus of her life all the time.
    the sad part is that she is a consummate actress and is good at convincing and frauding people. Doesnt make it any easier for me.


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  161. Yep. Yep. The sociopathic sister is a horror show. My elder sister too tried to keep me as a shadow of herself. I was physically and emotionally wrecked by her since childhood. She wanted everything of mine and gaslighted me from childhood. Now that I look back, I remember that I learned things before she did (like reading time), but she convinced me that I was an idiot and would soon be a raving lunatic. She enjoyed beating me any time, but if her friends were around it was usually worse. If something embarassing happened, she would never let me forget it. I never got a gift from her but gave her expensive ones till the day she threw a tantrum about how I'd gotten myself a new phone but the one I'd gifted her months ago had become outdated. She talks about herself but as soon as I start to talk, she walks away. If I'm in a good mood, she'll bring me down. If I look good in an outfit, it'll be torn. If I love a book, it'll be ripped. If I try to save an injured bird, she'll kill it. If I get a gift, she'll keep it and if I insist I want it back, she'll break it. She killed my 3 cats. She took all my photos and certificates and destroyed them.
    The creepiest thing about her? She wants to have sex with me. Many times I woke up with her face hovering millimeters above mine. She kept forcing me to watch weird animes about brothers in love with each other. She has hated every bf of mine but also tried to seduce them. She's good looking, but since I'm that too, she never succeeded. She always tries to get me naked saying "let's compare breasts" or some such shit.
    I finally cut all ties with her. I'm so much happier. She's going from job to job and relationship to relationship. She's pretty good at manipulating people but then she gets bored, hurts them and drops them. Someday, sister, Karma will catch up with you.

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