Monday, February 11, 2013

Sociopaths recognizing each other and manipulation

A reader asks whether sociopaths can recognize each other, and what's the deal with sociopath charm and knowing the right thing to say, etc.:
I think sociopaths can recognize each other. I imagine it's like con artists stumbling across each other -- there are so many shared tricks, that it's easy to see part of yourself in the other person. But not all sociopaths are the same, so that wouldn't be universally true, and I think some sociopaths are more open about manipulation, etc. than others. So it depends. But I have found other sociopaths by doing a delicate dance of disclosure and eliciting information before sharing my own. But there could be others that I have just never known about, so it is hard to say what percentage of sociopaths I am successfully able to detect.

Manipulation is a lot about reading the other people for their reactions in a trial and error sort of way. Imagine the best "yes men." They pretty much just throw out a lot of opinions, see which one their target seems to latch onto, and then reemphasize that particular one. Most people are expecting to see some things and not others, so you just watch for those signs in their face. If it seems like you are getting off, you'll see a look of confusion or disgust, after which you quickly backpedal and go the opposite way. Otherwise you'll see signs of apathy or approval. I imagine it is a lot like a blind man feeling his way through an unfamiliar room. I do the same thing in interviews or first dates, and I think everyone does it to a certain extent. We sort of give vague answers to feel people out and avoid committing on anything until the other person commits first.

Hmm, what are some of my favorite manipulation movies/books? Housesitter, Dangerous Liaisons, Being John Malkovich... also The Art of Seduction and The 48 Laws of Power are very good resources. I do categorize people, but don't really have standard lines the same way pick up artists or con artists seem to have. So I guess it is more intuitive, and by that I mean there is an excessive amount of data mining going on in a seemingly innocent conversation. Or if I'm feeling lazy, or am in a group, I put on a show for everyone, tell some charming story, or engage the group in the story of someone else there -- trying to be a curator of the interesting, the cultural, the entertaining. Actually I was just talking with a friend who knows what I am and she said she sometimes wishes she could be me in group settings -- always entertaining, charming, intoxicating. My gut tells me it can be taught, and those resources I mention above are starting points. The real thing keeping most people from being charming, I think, is that they are unwilling to devote their entire energy and attention to someone else. They remain afraid that they are not coming off well, or self conscious, or whatever else it is that keeps people from diving into a role, so they never can be as affective as someone who can keep the focus entirely on the other person. I don't know to what extent that can be learned...

211 comments:

  1. 'Like speaks to like' is the common cliche; but a sociopath that crosses paths with a kindred sociopath will most likely find the other uninteresting (or unappealing)- at least in the long run. Coupling different spectrums or opposite genders might spark an interest, but really we're quite boring without a trick up our sleeve or a person or group to dismantle.

    I'm also firmly convinced that a sociopath's sex appeal lies in a dual ability to maintain mystic, while creating comfort. So probably no fucking either.

    Yeah, sounds dull.

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  2. That was my experience with my S friend in terms of how he would throw stuff out there and gauge my reaction to it. I thought at the time he was just messed up and let it slide. Perhaps I liked other things and would let it slide. I would sort of bash him with a short lecture when he would say something which I found absurd which initially was often. Thinking retrospectively, I gather he must have thought me extreme because many of his feelers were of an extreme nature. Though I think he did later have one true insight which probably was a decent part of the reason why I didn't suss him out as to his exact nature.

    It would probably be difficult to manipulate someone with a lot of "integrity", because as soon as you are off and do any backpedaling, you are communicating yourself as creating stuff as opposed to genuine expression of what you feel or really think. Especially if your feeler and a later expression are contradictory. At a minimum, this should throw up secret warning bells. As well, some charismatic attention hog like behavior right away I think gives someone away as someone who needs to dominate, control or is needy, attempting to control empty air space etc,.

    I think in addition to many people not having a lot of integrity, many are not really aware that a sizable part of the population are missing a sort of sense they have. We see blind people, deaf people etc and know what this looks like, the consequences etc. People don't consider that one could lack a C sense and what the consequences/implications of this are. I think awareness of this could be beneficial to those with C sense in general.

    I bet non S could learn this stuff quite well, but not apply it as effectively as S. But then again, maybe they could.

    As far as s/s goes, I suppose S's could possibly work together in some sort of way, and I imagine their way of relating would be different than standard s/n relationships.

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  3. interesting thought aspie, might someone with unbending integrity be the true archnemesis of a sociopath?

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    1. Right on.

      When you have a well-defined personality with high integrity the sociopath is going to have a very difficult time penetrating. Aspie's observations above are excellent.

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    2. i live close to an aspie and i've been trying to play him (just make him lol)
      i'm finaly there but i'm not sure if he's humoring me or really loling

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  4. Sounds like the plot of a stephen king novel. But I imagine an S would just avoid a difficult target/one that gets them quickly or doesn't allow or calls out that processing. Gaslighting is probably less of a realistic option in this case. The high integrity one "perhaps" would steer clear as well as their would be no point in engaging them.

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  5. their would be = there may be

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  6. Not really gaslighting, but projection in trying to manipulate others against one who gets them or doesn't allow them to S.

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  7. I would guess the true archnemesis of a sociopath is a woman with BPD lol. I have a friend like this and she can be extremely vicious and hateful. She likes abusive bad boy types and going nuts on them when they get abusive in a way that offends her.

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    1. I don't agree.

      A BPD is the easiest to manipulate if S is willing to provide for the BPD and appear in love. I've seen a BPD and socio marriage work very well.

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    2. Would you please give details on their typical day- to - day, Sceli?

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    3. There is no typical day to day with BPD.

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    4. the true archnemesis of a sociopath is...bordem so someone boring
      i love sensetive ppl
      and borderlines are sensetive
      and i love ppl who are a puzle to figure out
      and borderlines love my calm
      gives them peace

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    5. You're only calm because you don't use punctuation.

      And reading you is like swimming in a pond, doing the backfloat, head in the heavens n such. Wanna get outta here?

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  8. A person with unbending integrity is highly exploitable. Anyone predictable is. Which makes "aspie" and I agree on the BPD woman thing. I've said it here before: A male sociopath's blind spot is someone (typical BPD) that would sacrifice their own survival and happiness for revenge - even having the first line of offense causing their own injury to be 2x more than what they inflict.

    I've seen it, not pretty. Not with women tho. I would guess the blind spot for a female sociopath is ... ??? Herself?
    (or is it me against the world?)

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    1. Unbending integrity is not 'predictable' to a sociopath.

      The best warriors are the ones who can avoid fighting altogether. So, a smart person with high integrity and low narcissism is bound to find a way not to engage an S, whereas a BPD will enjoy the fight and keep losing (I bet a lot of the lovefraud victims are higher on the BPD spectrum as opposed to not).

      I wish Haven remarked on this.

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    2. I enjoyed it, Sceli. I like when Haven does a more intellectual reply, too. She is a good teacher, right?

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    3. If you are willing to bend, you are capable of being exploited. If you are not willing to bend, someone else has to tailor their efforts to bend to that persons needs. Regardless, it hardly matters. People think it's such a great feat to get one over on each other, like manipulation is something so extraordinary. It's really quite common. People are gullible and it's not very difficult to take advantage of that. Kind of like, good job, you beat a one legged retiree in a foot race. I'm always amused at how much people here think deception is some great accomplishment.

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    4. "The best warriors are the ones who can avoid fighting altogether. So, a smart person with high integrity and low narcissism is bound to find a way not to engage an S, whereas a BPD will enjoy the fight and keep losing (I bet a lot of the lovefraud victims are higher on the BPD spectrum as opposed to not)."

      People with BPD have their best interests in mind, as to Socios. Where socios are all about their needs, Borderlines tend to believe that giving peopel what they need will ultimately result in getting us what we need.... to a point.

      I fight when I need to, but not before and not for no reason. I'm considered high-functioning and Acting-In though. Part of the problem here is the very narrow compartmentalizaiton. Low functioning, low intelligence people will act out and can be easily taken advantage of. High functioning, high intelligence people will not be. There's a whole spectrum in between.

      And if you're Borderline the last thing you are is predictable. I've been hit with scenarios that people would have sworn that I would freak out about that I handled without a bat of an eye, others that didn't seem like a big deal, felt like the end of my existence... labels don't mean shit if you don't understand the context.

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    5. Thank you, Haven. You are high functioning at a level that even some of the socios here are more BPD than you.

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    6. my wanted to punch me
      i was once again a little out of controle
      i stated loling and so did he
      he can't stay mad at me
      (i so enjoi playing him and he stats smiling the minute he sees me)

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  9. Nothing special about what you do, m.e.. Hate to tell you that it sounds pretty average...

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  10. Sounds like sociopaths make for good actors...

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  11. I think they are brilliant actors but their real brilliance is in their knowing exactly what you need to know/see for you to see them in a way they want you to. For example, they may not be able to do certain behaviors (straight up abuse for example) with high integrity people as with other people... but they wouldn't want to because it doesn't make sense. They would use these people if possible for character study and for character reference and for the thrill of doing that. They are good at using people in the best way for them and knowing what that best way is.

    I know this guy (the S subject can make you a little paranoid lol) who never in a million years would I suspect as "evil". To me he comes off as sort of silly, very glib and utterly harmless. I do pity him slightly and maybe can relate to his high energy. The only possible clue is the glibness.

    I notice some other people consider him very shallow and don't really care for him and some really like him or put up with him for some reason.

    Ok. I was thinking the other day based on his glibness could he be S? He is the last person in the world I would think would be. So, I began to forget about him, and just look at the situation around him. The situation around him suggests it is highly likely. Glib. Very irresponsible with bills in a way that doesn't make sense. Doesn't stay at "places" long. Wife extremely possibly off'ed self after going crazy.

    If I do just a slight amount of looking, and these are just things I know already, it is highly suggestive. And that's without considering what one or two people have said behind his back that suggested he may not be as he seems, presented in an odd fearful way. He may in fact not be an S and it is all coincidence. But if he is, he presents an extremely sophisticated facade.

    If one senses something off with someone, it may pay to covertly check them out. That is the only way I think to discover them. You have to put your ego aside and look at things as they are. And if things are suggestive, be very careful what you do next.

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  12. Perhaps it is not really so sophisticated. Maybe if your intent was to "control" as many people as possible, this often noticed S characteristic of a superficial, glib persona is a perfect matrix to work off with in various ways.

    Perhaps the best defense against S is, in addition to developing good self esteem/self respect, to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism in all things.

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  13. "Perhaps the best defense against S is, in addition to developing good self esteem/self respect, to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism in all things"

    I would also add ... And knowing S exists and what it looks like.

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  14. You know, I watched the dr phil show the other day. First time I've ever seen it. I think it was on the 11th. The show was about this girl name chloe and her relationships with her parents and her "boyfriend" dusty.

    I think the boyfriend just screamed "s". He did this very s thing with his eyes when he had to come up with an answer, this fast shifty rapid back and forth action. He also just seemed malevolent. The girl seemed to maybe be a budding bpd'er or some version or perhaps is just feeling the S manipulation strain.

    Dr phil seemed to be retarded. The parents had somewhat of a clue, especially the father.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way it came off to me.

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    1. Dr Phil seemed to be retarded lol

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  15. Here is an interesting link that shows signs of S.

    http://transsociopathica.blogspot.com/

    I know my friend (the one I was close to) had many of these. High testosterone seems to characterize them. Perhaps sussing them out is not difficult at all if you are aware of their characteristics.

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    1. All posts cleared, nothing there.

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  16. Here is a direct link.

    Just scroll down a little.

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  17. "I know this guy (the S subject can make you a little paranoid lol) who never in a million years would I suspect as "evil". To me he comes off as sort of silly, very glib and utterly harmless. I do pity him slightly and maybe can relate to his high energy. The only possible clue is the glibness.

    I notice some other people consider him very shallow and don't really care for him and some really like him or put up with him for some reason."


    Sounds like a Narcy I know. I would say to save your pity; one can be pitiful yet undeserving of pity itself. We have a mutual friend who most definitely has Aspergers and he tends to sympathize with the Narcy more than he ought to. Although he did provide me with an interesting comment before I met said Narcy; "He's cunning like a fox." No one believed him of course based on Narcy's "harmless" character, but I could tell there was something different about them.

    -

    "Perhaps sussing them out is not difficult at all if you are aware of their characteristics."

    Perhaps for identifying the dim ones or those who don't have access to the internet or the DSM. Anyone with half a brain would avoid acting "glib and superficial" once it has already been defined as a sociopathic/psychopathic trait, except perhaps for a Narcy :)

    As for physiological traits, I wouldn't bother. There are too many "normal" people who exhibit the same types of symptoms, so you're better off reading peer-review journals on physiology and genetics than some random internet blog.

    I actually came across that blog a while ago and the thought did cross my mind that it might be M.E.'s idea of a joke; acting like an excessively paranoid and self-deluded empath as a way to attract more paranoid and self-deluded empaths for laughs.

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  18. I like to think I'm pretty good at recognizing sociopaths, but who knows? Those I do notice seem to exhibit a mix of deliberate and seemingly pointless behavior. Instead of expressing themselves in a way that paints a cohesive picture of their identity, complete with flaws, their social interactions almost always point toward a directed purpose. I would guess that the incomprehensible behavior is both a way to probe and a way to through people off... a bit of noise.

    Usually, the identity "picture" they paint has more to do with me and others around them than anything else. There's very little independent personality that can't be attributed to a purpose. That's the biggest queue for me.

    I'm pretty ambiguous, myself, so sociopaths have a hard time aligning themselves to me. I lie and act a lot, and it really catches my attention when people seem to latch onto my lies and acts in ways that normal people wouldn't, especially when my subtle contradictions lead them into related contradictions without losing the scent of their purpose.

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  19. "As for physiological traits, I wouldn't bother. There are too many "normal" people who exhibit the same types of symptoms, so you're better off reading peer-review journals on physiology and genetics than some random internet blog"

    I agree but I would argue that it may be best to consider as many sources and different types of sources as possible. You can never cross check enough imo. This way you can accumulate a wide ranging criteria to apply and are less likely to be wrong with large amounts of hits. Plus, S's always have chaotic pasts, it appears. If you get enough hits to warrant secret investigation, you will find out because S often creates a history of a mess of lies and hate in their wake. A suspected S is a caught s. It's just waiting there to be found, if you can determine what you are dealing with based on known various behaviors and traits.

    Funny, I thought that that blog may be an S playing around too but in examining it further it doesn't seem like it. I sometimes feel like some of these "aspie" forums and thought behind certain issues have some S influence behind them. And they probably do.

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  20. If I had to pick one word that characterizes them that word would be misdirection. They are like magicians.

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  21. "You can never cross check enough imo. This way you can accumulate a wide ranging criteria to apply and are less likely to be wrong with large amounts of hits. Plus, S's always have chaotic pasts, it appears. If you get enough hits to warrant secret investigation, you will find out because S often creates a history of a mess of lies and hate in their wake. A suspected S is a caught s. It's just waiting there to be found, if you can determine what you are dealing with based on known various behaviors and traits."

    I would say that background checks are probably more effective than physiological ones. It is funny that I myself have low blood pressure (as it is genetic along with my sociopathy/psychopathy/whatever people want to call it these days) as it has been mentioned to be a symptom as well. I'm still reluctant to put much stock into that though.

    The times where I think that upbringing might not be indicative is when a person is born an S/P into an otherwise loving family. It might also be difficult to identify someone who happens to be female and uses their abusive childhood as leverage for appearing as a victim, which tends to be much more believable than if they were male.

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  22. "I would say that background checks are probably more effective than physiological ones"

    I was just referring to a person who might suspect he is dealing with an S. He would base this on observing the suspect s's behaviors, physiological traits, intuitive feeling etc ... not just any one thing ...leading into this idea that one may be dealing with a suspect S and a thorough secret investigation may be warranted. Which very likely will uncover the S. The gold standard in diagnosing the S is the secret background check. The symptoms, which may indicate something else or be off, point to a need for the gold standard test.

    If you had low blood pressure, animals seem to die around you, you engage in mild jeck/hyde behavior...any one of these things alone may not indicate S but together they may be suggestive.. this picture may indicate the need for gold standard testing.

    Yeah pity play seems to be heavily relied on.

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  23. "You can never cross check enough imo"

    By this I mean when you are collection information about something, in this case characteristics of s, whether it is from the dsm, from assorted psychologists/psychiatrists, from sites that apppear to be written by s, from a site that likens S to demons entities, to forum experiences, to your own experience etc, you can never get enough of this.... and all this filtered against each other yields some likely candidates for qualities and traits that can then be noticed and then further determinations can be made imo.

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  24. I think in the long run, these tests are really only meant for those S/P's who cause any tangible form of harm to society (murder, rape, arson, extortion, fraud etc.).

    Those of us under the radar have adapted and learned how to hide or redirect our tendencies much better than those who are unable to gauge their abilities and impulse levels. The harmful effects of sociopathy/psychopathy seem only be just that; behavioural effects of a mind wired differently than most. The difference seems to lie in the thought processes and level of emotions required to function harmoniously within society. Without a society, empathy would be useless. Likewise, one cannot be "malicious" if there's no one around to be malicious toward. Sadism, however, is somewhat different, but I won't get into that now.

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  25. To add; ever notice how selective empathy is? "Normal" people feel more for those whom are close to them and actively hate those who smite them. Another glaring instance of this is in self-professed empaths who enjoy meat on a regular basis with complete disregard to the ethics of their behaviour while still maintaining that they are humane and moral individuals.

    There seems to be no logical consistency in how empathy is used, yet so much importance is placed upon it, as if it is the end-all be-all standard of humanity.

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  26. We are tribal, Ishtar. Anything outside of our tribe is inhuman and an enemy. Opposing political parties, different sexual orientations, food animals... all outside of the tribe.

    It makes perfect sense.
    They just don't see it.

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  27. To add; ever notice how selective empathy is? "Normal" people feel more for those whom are close to them and actively hate those who smite them"


    Hate is a very self destructive emotion. Anybody harboring hate is not healthy. To have momentary hate or strong dislike I think is natural at points but to hold on to it is not good. But i think there is some sense to love and "hate" in the context of empathy. Empathy doesn't mean flowers and butterflies. It just means you can feel how another may feel or share emotions. It's a sense of connection. If someone is harming you and you dislike or hate them, empathy is kind of irrelevant. You empathize that they are not respecting you, which creates anger. Even with someone you really dislike, empathy (and c) may come into play preventing one from just lashing out as you may think well if i do this to him he will feel this... do I really want to do that... is it really warranted. That's even in the context of emotional heat or rage which can disrupt rational thinking. But then again, I don't believe being empathetic in any case means one is not capable of being unjust.

    The meat thing I think has some truth to it. If humans are natural omnivores with diets that include meat, than meat eating is just. We need nutrients they provide. It is natural. We can argue whether is true or not. I think it is. Factory farming, on the other hand, in which animals are treated as less than zero, and is sort of an abomination, is a very easy way to eat meat. It is everywhere. To east otherwise will entail more cost and effort. Many don't do it.

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  28. ^^ This is exactly the kind of self-justification and defensive attitude I come across when testing many empaths' belief systems.

    Feelings of guilt typically leads one to fear being labeled a hypocrite, and thus causes one to compulsively deny any implications of it.

    Such is the life of an empath.

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  29. Feelings of guilt typically result from one behaving hypocritically or unjustly or against conscience. The fearing of the hypocrite label is a possibility. Compulsively denying it is not necessarily an outcome.

    I find it interesting that those who are C/E blind have so many thoughts and opinions on it that result in actions that benefit them. So many opinions on how light enters the cornea, on the color spectrum, on eye color, yet blind as a bat with no real experience of what they speak of.

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  30. C/E blind = C/E sense-less

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  31. Ishtar:
    "Feelings of guilt typically leads..."

    Aspie:
    "I find it interesting that those who are C/E blind have so many thoughts and opinions on it that result in actions that benefit them. So many opinions on how light enters the cornea, on the color spectrum, on eye color, yet blind as a bat with no real experience of what they speak of."
    --

    I'm not quite sure what you're going on about since I did say "typically."

    Emotions and similar abstract concepts aren't all that easily definable by anyone. Can you define with any certainty what justice/love/freedom/intelligence/guilt/good/evil/free-will are? Thousands of years have passed and yet we still haven't arrived at any universally accepted definition for any of these terms.

    How can you be so certain we (S/P) don't understand or have emotions albiet different from yours? Can you even trust your own sight? You see colour and say that an apple is red, but in actuality it is merely a reflection of the colour red. There is nothing inherent in the apple that contains "redness." Optical illusions are another thing. I likewise find it interesting how sure people are of themselves in their own understanding of the world.

    On the other hand, I admit I may be mistaken, but I'm willing to accept the facts as they present themselves. However, I'm unwilling to yield to mere anecdotal evidence by those who are unwilling to admit the same.

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  32. I am not absolutely certain of anything.

    It is said that S lack a conscience and empathy and experience emotions shallowly if at all save for fear and anger. The behavior of S suggests this. Some suggest that repressed anger drives them and fear empowers them etc. The "best" ones tend to manipulate people and enjoy "breaking hearts".

    I am not really sure how anyone else experiences things. I suppose one way to get an idea is to ask questions, read around and observe actions and assume nothing.

    If you are blind, missing the sense of sight, then you can't see the apple to begin with to have a discussion about your perception of the apple or redness. If we consider the conscience a sense, and you are missing it, how can you talk rationally about it on the same level of someone who has it when you don't know it? Personally, I believe C is a sense affected by conditioning. I don't believe it is simply all conditioning. Evidence I've seen suggests it. I could be wrong.

    I suppose many S consider conscience just conditioning that their superior intelligent brains reject and they see things as they are and this is further confirmed by their ability to reverse engineer people or fool them. The proof is in the work. But really, why do any of that at all? Why waste time with people? Why not work on solving complex mathematical equations or doing something interesting. Why not take the intellect and get a decent job and do something revolutionary etc. The opinion of N by S seems to be not of the highest variety so why do all that to begin with? For anti socials, s is extremely social.

    One possible reason is that S could be driven by rage, driven to harm whatever the rationalization, they could be wired in a way to experience pleasure when another feels pain (a reverse on the normal way), feel empowered in fearful situations (another reverse) and seek this out to satisfy it. Seems like wiring to me. Same as those with conscience sense. Of course the environment plays a role, especially in shaping the frequency of the expression of certain traits.

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  33. No, Ishtar, he can't. The fool can't even define "personal unfairness," which he used in an earlier argument. I suspect he didn't even know what he was saying, and I doubt he does now, either. He probably just "feels" that he's right and spits out whatever comes to mind.

    So silly.

    Hey, Aspie. Have you ever seen a mad man waving his hands around, seemingly without a point? I assure you that his delusions are real to him, and if you tried to tell him he's being foolish, he'd make a remark similar to the one you just made. You can't see them, so obviously you have no place to talk, right?

    It's too bad that neither you or the mad man can put their delusions into coherent speech.

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  34. Quite right, Billy Thompson.

    There is clearly a contradiction in the act of one claiming others to be limited in knowledge while making sweeping generalizations based one's own limited experience in the perspectives of those whom they criticize.

    Instead of backtracking, Aspie, why not state ahead of time your justifications for making your claims? This isn't meant to be a personal attack, rather, it would make your comments more comprehensible, thus limiting the risk of you appearing irrational and defensive.

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    1. Its funny to read this forum from an outsiders point of view. How you guys are arguing. My favorite is when you get into technicality about whether a sociopath can understand a conscious. I wonder if you even care or if you just want to be validated. I mean, its interesting because as a sociopath your concious is your defining factor, yet it ought to be irrelevent to you.

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  35. I like to think I'm pretty good at recognizing sociopaths, but who knows?

    Peter, based on the past comments you have left. A good example is your messing with DCW or whatever aliases he used on here. I’m basing my opinion that you messed with him on his reactions, since you deleted a bunch of your comments afterwards though. Based on your comments and your more serious views on certain topics, I'd say you are good at recognizing them and the fakes, he was a fake right?

    Anyways, I’m curious to know if you consider yourself sociopathic at all?

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  36. manipulation is a lot about reading the other people for their reactions in a trial and error sort of way. imagine the best yes men, they pretty much just throw out a lot of opinions, see which one their target seems to latch onto, and then reemphasize that particular one. most people are expecting to see some things and not others, so you just watch for those signs in their face. if it seems like you are getting off, you'll see a look of confusion or disgust, after which you quickly backpedal and go the opposite way.

    lol, i thought i was special. but is it really manipulation if you do it automatically? and isn’t it just getting to know someone better?

    i find people love to reveal themselves, and what’s on their minds, if you let them do the steering after you throw out a few suggestions, and sometimes i can learn more about a person afterward by reviewing the contents of the conversation.

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  37. Zoe; I was thinking the same. I thought everyone did some form of this as a way of getting to know others. Having learned early on that people generally love talking (read: boasting) about themselves, I almost always make a point to be the listener rather than the speaker. It certainly takes pressure off of me for having to share anything personal about myself (most irritating questions include "how are you feeling?" and "what are you thinking?").

    It's interesting how willing people are to share their life stories to anyone willing to listen, often trusting them just because they're willing to listen. Perhaps this is based on the false preconception that good listeners are thoughtful and patient people, therefore they must be trustworthy.

    Having a reputation for being a substitute shrink and thus gaining access to that sort of information is useful though, sociopath or otherwise.

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  38. Having learned early on that people generally love talking (read: boasting) about themselves, I almost always make a point to be the listener rather than the speaker. It certainly takes pressure off of me for having to share anything personal about myself (most irritating questions include "how are you feeling?" and "what are you thinking?").

    i get that. it used to annoy me but now i just make something up. the people who ask don’t really want the truth. and wouldn’t be able to understand anyway.

    so i was thinking today, it’s not really communication if it’s one way is it? maybe that’s when it feels like manipulation to the other person, when they realize they don’t know you at all. it must feel like such a betrayal. it must seem incomprehensible to them that the other person could completely change the way they are, just like that. or maybe it is communication - an exchange of ideas, or a physical exchange - but without true connection, a sharing of being, where you’re really seeing each other.

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  39. It's very difficult to discern what constitute as manipulation when any or absolutely all information one shares about oneself may be used in a way to manipulate their behaviour to some degree.

    For example, we might know that a child enjoys ice cream and tell them that if he does "A" then he will get ice cream. That to me is a form of manipulation; when you use information about a particular person in order to direct the way in which they act/react in a given circumstance.

    Another instance is knowing that your partner enjoys talking about a certain subject when you may not enjoy it but you do so anyway to placate them and avoid conflict.

    Everyone has a choice in how they pursue their actions depending on how their actions affect others. As far as I'm concerned, we all manipulate to some degree, and it certainly is not exclusive to sociopaths.

    I suppose one reason someone may appear to be manipulative is if they have more information on you than you do on them. The more information one has, the more options one has for manipulation, but not necessarily that the person will exhaust those options.

    ReplyDelete
  40. "The high integrity one "perhaps" would steer clear as well as their would be no point in engaging them."

    We recognise and want to kill on sight but can't in normal circumstances - so yes, avoid.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I read this and got to the point about feeling like it could be taught and I know where you're coming from but I have to wonder if a key aspect of the style of manipulation employed goes hand in hand with the lack of empathy and ability to manipulate your own moral values to fit the situation.

    I used to be consciously aware of the amount of data mining I would perform in conversations but these days it feels more like driving a car, I don't even pay attention to what I'm doing anymore or how I'm moving the conversation in the direction I want it to go.. I just.. want it to go in a certain direction and it does, I don't think I could really explain that properly to someone else though.

    ReplyDelete
  42. 1st! Third time's a charm. :)

    ReplyDelete
  43. Imagine the best "yes men."

    Manipulation does sound an awful lot like slavery, doesn't it.

    A turd by any other name...

    ReplyDelete
  44. always entertaining, charming, intoxicating.

    Nice delusion you have there, M.E.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Fascinating! ( I am NOT apple polishing :D )

    ReplyDelete
  46. :) Good Morning Sociopathworld!!!!!

    M.Brig to answer your question from yesterday, Iam 24 years old.

    Monica I will answer your question but it will be longer so ill make a new post.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ok, cool Rich! We're pretty close in age :)

      Delete
    2. @Rich

      Oh, and i thought you'd be older than me. nice surprise dude! :)

      Delete
  47. Rich
    Thank you. No rush. I want you to know that I think you are a very cool person :D

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank u very much Monica :)

      Here are your 2 questions from yesterday:

      "Rich
      I am so glad you described what you did. I had no idea what horrors people went through with opiates. It is really a horrible "trick" how good they make you feel and what they exact in return.

      I have some questions, Can someone ever get off methadone? How does methadone make you feel? For the people who get off opiates cold turkey such as in jail, do they often die? If not, are they not addicted, anymore?

      Thank you, Sweetheart.


      Another question. If someone is addicted to oxycotin, do they go through the same thing you describe? What happens to the people who get addicted for medical reasons, like the doctors prescribing it for pain and then they get it themselves because the doctor won't give them enough? When they go off, are they be in the same position you were? Do you have to go the methadone route, too?"

      Yes it is possible to get off of methadone slowly and gradually they reduce your dose...... The thing about methadone is they only take certain people on the program, you have to have been addicted for at least 1 year and you have to show 2 documented cases of when you tried to detox and the detox failed.......

      Some people, like me, were using opiates in such large quantities and for so long that your brain stops producing the pain killing chemicals and pleasurable chemicals by itself because the opiates were putting them there for so long my brain completely stopped making them and I feel like crap for months if I try to get off..... The longest I lasted was 6 and a half weeks clean and I was sick the entire time and could only get 2 hours of disturbed sleep a night, I was very irratible and laid in bed all day depressed.......

      In the beginning of taking methadone some people feel a buzz, but methadone stabilizes in your body after awile and your levels never go above a certain point and they never go below a certain point (Ill post a good link showing you what I mean) The only way you get high with methadone if you have a huge tolerance to opiates like I do is if you mix it with benzodiazepines like xanax, klonopin, Ativan, Valium, ETC.......

      Methadone lasts a VERY LONG TIME, it has a half-life of 24 hours, which means that 24 hours after you take it, half of the medication is still working, so If I take 100 milligrams one day, 24 hours later 50 milligrams will still be working....

      Check out this link on methadone levels and you will see what I mean, eventually you get to a "steady state" here your levels never go above or below a certain point if you take it every 24 hours....

      http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83491

      Delete
    2. Also, yes if somebody is taking oxycontin for pain they will end up in the same situation I did and there doctor willl have to bring them down very slowly and sometimes it dosent work, nowadays they have a med that pain doctors prescribe called Suboxone to detox off of opiates, its kinda like methadone but alot more expensive and u can pick it up from a pharmacy instead of going to a methadone clinic. My clinic also does suboxone detoxes but it is $98 a week for methadone, and $175 a week for Suboxone........ So its a big price difference.

      Also, when you are addicted to opiates and you detox you dont die..... I have heard stories of people having seizures but withdrawal from opiates isint considered deadly. Alcohol and Benzodiazepine withdrawal are considered fatal though......

      Everybody is different, if you only take the meds as prescribed and use them for a very sort time you probably wont get hooked, but when you abuse them and take mega doses just to get a buzz chances are you will become an addict if you regularly do that....... Some people get over withdrawal in a couple days, other people dont get over it for months or even YEARS!

      Delete
    3. What are you addicted to right now and what do you take?

      Why not stop everything and drink water, and get over the crappy horrible feelings you have? In 2 months everything will be perfect again.

      Delete
    4. HAHAHA LMAO Anon, just by your reply I can tell you have never been severely addicted to large amounts of opiate pain medication.......

      The lat time I tried to quit I stuck it out for 6 and a half weeks.....

      BUT, my withdrawal symptoms 6 weeks later, were JUST AS BAD as the beginning of the withdrawals.......

      It made me feel like it would never end........ I have taken VERY HIGH EXTREME DOSES of all opiates around where I live basically wand have been using since I was 15, but I wasnt physically addicted/dependant on them until I was 17..........

      It changes your brain chemistry (in some people) for the rest of their lives and they need a medication like methadone or Suboxone to function and feel normal........

      Have you ever been addicted to opiates> I guarantte you havent..... Or you would have a completely different response.......

      Delete
    5. Also Anon- If I knew FOR A FACT that if I quit Methadone today and would feel better and completely back to normal in 2 months, the withdrawals would suck but I would jump off of my methadone right now if that were the case..... Sadly, it's not.........

      If I were to quit today, in 2 months after I quit my withdrawals would be JUST AS SEVERLY sick as I would be in the first week.....

      That is why methadone withdrawal is so tough to beat, because you can literally be dopesick for YEARS, and I would rather be on methadone than go through that again........

      Delete
    6. So glad I'm not an addict.

      Delete
    7. I also have a hard time feeling sympathy for you plight. You did this to yourself. You had a choice in your life and you chose to do this.

      I have a personality disorder that I never would have contributed to if I had any choice in the matter. I'm struggling every day to get clean of my problem that there's no guarantee that I can ever really be free from, and I didn't do it to myself.

      You did this to yourself.

      Delete
    8. Considering this problem began when he was 15 and he apparently was clueless when it came to the addictive nature and dangers of what he was doing it's pretty harsh to say he chose it. He's obviously been self-medicating some sort of mental pain that he struggles with every day as well as making the effort to come off some of the drugs he has been dependent on his entire adult life.

      Delete
    9. Wonderfully put, Ellicit. No wonder Themes gives you the K.T Tunsball song.

      Delete
  48. Thank you, Rich. I am sure you are helping a lot of people by being so open about your own struggles.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks Monica :)

      If I can help only one person, than my mission will be accomplished, I hope to save anybody thinking about using opiates daily and thinking there will be no consequences........ There are ALWAYS consequences!!!!!

      Delete
    2. That's exactly what I was wondering, too.

      Hang in there Rich. If you can make it through 6+ weeks of being sick like that, you can get clean with the methadone. Thanks for explaining to us. And remember a lot of people are on your side. QM

      Delete
  49. "If I'm feeling lazy, or am in a group, I put on a show for everyone, tell some charming story, or engage the group in the story of someone else there -- trying to be a curator of the interesting, the cultural, the entertaining."

    Hahaha same!! Makes it more interesting for everyone :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What the poster is talking about with trial and error with people is right on too. It's hard with one person and you never know what to do or say when you meet them. So you have to kind of poke around in a dark room that you can't see into

      Delete
    2. Also i think, that people that are in a group don't even think about the possibility that they are being manipulated/played.

      Delete
  50. Good Morning Mac, Monica and Rich!

    how is it going?^^

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Heyyy, Benny :) not much dude just chillin

      Delete
    2. That's nice Mac,

      i am also chilling atm. :)

      Delete
    3. I'm reading this article that has advice for people on "how to deal with a sociopath" it's actually pretty funny. http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/dealing-with-a-sociopath.html

      Delete
    4. LoL, hilarious. the last point "it's not your fault", says everything.

      Delete
    5. Hey!!! Iam alright, just having ym nightly drinks before I cook dinner :)

      Whats up with you guys?

      Delete
    6. Nothing, just chillin'.....killin'....

      I am just about to start cooking dinner, either :)



      Delete


  51. Idk if charming is a survival skill i learned at a very young age or what. I'm guessing yes. It must have been a relief to feel engaging. Pretty sure I learned it from seeing nice results over and over. Like a Pavlovian dog.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Hi, Rich, thank you for answering my question in detail. I have one more question about when you first started taking any drugs at all. Was it about fitting in with the 17 year olds, or was it the manipulation of that kid whose mother was the source of the drug? Are you still in touch with him? What is he up to now?

    As for all the exaggarations of the others on my personality based on the use of word 'anxiety.' Like anything else that word is on a spectrum too (see below). To me anxiety is a feeling something lacks, and mostly a sense of not engaging my brain sufficiently at high levels. New learning feeds that sensation. I'm older than you guys and done with all schooling. At your age the word anxiety as I referred to it with regards to learning did not exist, because I was still on that pre-30 on a rise and challenge curve. You guys are bored now, watch what happens after 30, lol.

    anxiety |a ng ˈzī-itē|
    noun ( pl. -ties)
    a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease, typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome : he felt a surge of anxiety | anxieties about the moral decline of today's youth.
    • [ with infinitive ] desire to do something, typically accompanied by unease : the housekeeper's eager anxiety to please.
    • Psychiatry a nervous disorder characterized by a state of excessive uneasiness and apprehension, typically with compulsive behavior or panic attacks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow, it really seems like, you understand boredom and how it like feels for us. (sarcasm)

      What exaggarations? We just analyzed your posts, and i think if you'd be so reflective as you think you are, you would have noticed that we didn't base our points on only anxiety.

      Maybe the next thing you should start learning is self-reflection, it can really help.


      Delete
    2. :) Good name for you. Stay focused on your name, your mind. Stop projecting your mind unto others. Interesting that you need that 'we.' Herding much nowadays?

      Delete
    3. Did you ever think about the possibility that i used "we" because there were other people besides me thinking the same. Oh and maybe because you used the plural too, while talked about the "exxageration".

      That i project my emotional world onto you, would be a really reasonable argument..... if i had an emotional world.
      I'd say that you're projecting your projection on me.

      Delete
    4. I'm part of the "we", sceli. Benny is right. Some people do have problems with self-reflection and I have to say that you might be one of them. I think you could really help a lot of people, though :) you could start your own blog..

      and everyone has a right to project whatever the hell they want to on here

      Delete
    5. " I think you could really help a lot of people, though :) you could start your own blog.."

      sarcasm, Mac?

      Delete
    6. Sceli- Well I knew him way before his mom started getting MS-Contins so we were friends beforehand..... I never did morphine to fit in or anything, I did it because I loved how they made me feel...... Before the morphine he was in my crew of friends who was our "420 crew" AKA our weed smoking crew......

      As of now no I dont talk to him or anybody else from back then........ It just so happneed that I started the methadone program and was moving a couple towns over very soon after starting..... Well once I started I deleted everybodies phone numbers, deleted my myspace/facebook, and when I moved I just changed my phone number so nobody could contact me and I could have a "fresh start" so to speak.......

      I dont keep in touch with ANYBODY from those days, but Iam glad I dont, it keeps me more focused on recovering.

      The only problem is, I havent found a group of friends to replace them with yet, sure I have acquantences, but I dont have any real friends anymore.

      Delete
    7. zoe's anxiety: it's like i'm walking along and an invisible hand reaches in, pulls my brain out of my head, and shakes it up, then shoves it back in the skull. i'm still walking along all come like, but my brain is rattling away inside.

      or my mind is calm, that calm that feels like your brain is in a vice, and i'm all twitchy on the outside, like i'm trying to shake something loose. it feels like a little dog with sharp teeth is worrying my leg! or ten little dogs.

      Delete
    8. then there is caffeine anxiety. it's like the brain is sprinting downhill in first gear. fun.

      nothing like a caffeine buzz :-)

      Delete
    9. To me anxiety is a feeling something lacks, and mostly a sense of not engaging my brain sufficiently at high levels.

      to me it feels like something's not right, so i have to focus to figure out what it is that isn't right, but i can't focus because something keeps interrupting me, which is my jittery thoughts, and so on. it's like all the thoughts are colliding, and it's everyone else's fault. if the world would only shut up! you know?

      or i could cut back on da coffee

      Delete
    10. correction: all "calm" like

      Delete
    11. ^mentally stir crazy?

      Delete
  53. Rich, are you aware of anyone blogging about drugs at the level of candor and expertise you present. If not, I wish you did. Everything you said was very educational for me, and you have my empathy and best wishes to straighten what started at a young age. 24 is a great age to identify and fix problems.

    I'd even say go ahead and write a book, it works as a cool and fast way to set your expertise in this country. If writing is not your thing, hire some guy to video your story and sell the video on Netflix. No degree is needed for doing either, just the courage to get out there, which to me you already have. You are solid in dealing with any type of questions, and you are indeed a charming person stuck in an environment that does not deserve you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Interesting idea Sceli!!!! If I did that I would probably go the book route, because now I only take methadone from my methadone clinic and drink alcohol (not including the xanax and temazepam Iam prescribed for Anxiety and Sleep) so it may not be as interesting as the old stories I have of withdrawal, going to crooked pain doctors and paying them in cash for prescriptions that only somebody on their deathbed should take (and I was a healthy 18 year old).....

      A book might actually be a good idea......... Thank you for the thought Sceli!!!! Iam going to think about that a little more........

      Delete
    2. "You are solid in dealing with any type of questions, and you are indeed a charming person stuck in an environment that does not deserve you."

      AWWWWW I missed this part when I read your post the first time!!!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH SCELI!!!!!! That was very nice, kind, and sweet of you to say! That is the nicest compliment I have gotten for awile lol ;)

      Thank you again Sceli, that brought a smile to my face and made my night alot better than it had been before I read that ;) <3

      Delete
    3. Also no I don't know any body who blogs with my level of candor. But if u check out sites like the one I posted on this thread for Monica to read there are a great group of open n honest people on that site.

      Delete
    4. I like you a lot, Rich :) Your emotional reactions are so interesting :)

      Delete
    5. Thank you M.Brig and MyMind!!!! I appreciate it and I enjoy hearing about your emotions and how you view the world too, because we are on different sides of the "spectrum" but we are also the same in many ways...... I think its interesting to learn about others and how they view the world compared to how I view the world.......

      Thanks guys :) I can sense that there will be MANY MORE interesting conversations in the future and as time goes by :)

      Goodnight guys, Iam kinda sleepy so Iam gonna lay down n watch some TV.....


      See you all in the morning!!!!

      Goodnight :)

      Delete
  54. How much $ could one make doing a video for Netflix?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A life long income. It piles over the years. It might have spurs of large amounts based on media. Best to do it while very young since kids are sick of listening to old farts on how they came out of drugs eventually. RIch can make a huge difference and his video may be adopted in high schools, it all can snowball. Hard to know without trying.

      Delete
    2. True
      Rich could have a website with a catchy title to talk to kids before they start down on the path he did. He could interact, as he has a great personality and a down to earth and non judgmental manner.
      What hits me about Rich's story was how many life changing decisions he made before he knew what he was doing.

      Delete
    3. Rich: "So, kids... [Puts on shades] That's why we need to stop shootin' drugs... and [Loads pump action] ...start shootin' lead."

      Delete
    4. Please Rich, start your own website so Erin can go stalk everything you say over there and leave this place alone.

      Delete
    5. Haven- Who is Erin? LOL

      There are alot of good websites out there but most are forums like the link I posted about methadone to that "drug-forums" place.

      A website may be fun to make but I dont know if my life is exciting enough to write a daily entry.... LOL

      Delete
  55. nothing more fun than a sociopath who get put on the spot getting his game exposed
    if he/she is not used to dealing with another one you can just pretend you don't know what's going on and keep your cool see how long it takes him/here to figure out you are one 2

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. what i ment is i had this gire trying out my techniques i usualy use on ppl try them on me and some how they did not work on me i pretended not to notice she was freaking out looked like she didn't have a backup plan
      bad game

      Delete
  56. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm8S4ExJ8ss

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. yeah, he was a really nice speaker and intelligent man. the problem is that i always wonder if he's talking to idiots because he speaks sooooo slow.

      Delete
    2. "...loving the self is elusive....." I knew it!

      Delete
  57. The key here is time.

    Zero people that aren't extremely close to me would know that I'm Borderline. And even then you have to be on an intimate level with me. If your BPD is low-functioning it may be a different story, but if you're anything like me, another wouldn't have a clue.

    Are people that are Sociopaths really that transparent to each other? Or are you just that limited in your exposure?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In my experience, it depends on the level of sociopathy.

      If the socio is way more high funtioning than you are, you probably won't notice he's one because he outplays you.
      If the socio is way less functioning than you are, you won't be able to determine him as one, because he doesn't do anything, that is similiar to what you are doing.
      But if the socio is kinda on the same level as you, you'll immediately notice what he is.

      Delete
    2. I'm like you in this respect, Haven. I never unleash unless I'm rrrreally pissed off. Even then, they just think I lost control for a minute. If It's perfectly natural for normal people, why can't I? It shows I'm just a regular human. ANd that's a good thing. Because I am human. i don't have superpowers. No one is afraid of me.

      Delete
  58. "I imagine it is a lot like a blind man feeling his way through an unfamiliar room. I do the same thing in interviews or first dates, and I think everyone does it to a certain extent. We sort of give vague answers to feel people out and avoid committing on anything until the other person commits first."

    People do this if they have an end game other than finding mutual happiness. If you have a goal to exploit... then sure... but if your goal is to be happy with someone that makes you happy, you want to do the opposite of this. You don't want to pretend, you don't want to placate, you don't want to make them feel good just to make them feel good.... you want them to feel good because the person who you actually are, is someone they want to be around. The goal is to not have to play the game at all in order to achieve the maximum benefit... but I guess that concept would be foreign to many here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I could not agree with this more. Anything else is a waste of time. When dating, I can choose to manipulate and charm someone to show them the time of their life, but what's in it for me? Getting some long term pet i need to entertain? How nice... for them.

      Delete
    2. Mutual happiness is the longterm goal. Once the other is happy, you can keep them. For me, securing their happiness is more valuable than them securing mine. Almost, that is. The boundaries are drawn, any violation will cause difficulty on MY part. You wonder whether giving people chance after chance is a mistake oce boundary has been crosssed. They lie once, ok, twice, not so good. You find out why. If it's their insecurity you make them feel secure, they are happy, done. It insn't personal, and it's no skin off my back making this decision. I don'y t give a fuck if I have to manipulate. Plus it's fun.

      Once I know them and they are happy, I want to keep making it interesting in order to keep it fresh. It becomes a challenge for them, too. I like them to feel they have enormous control, then give them opportunity to win. And I want them hungry.to win.

      Delete
    3. wtf. I wrote ^this^ a few hrs ago.

      It's like utter horseshit. This place is a mind fuck.

      Delete
    4. Ha! At least you admitted you were full of crap. Kudos for that.

      Delete
    5. I was being truthful when i wrote it, though!. That's more the point. -I dont trust that which comes out of my mouth why should anyone? See, and that's why I tend not to say shit anymore to people.

      I dont even think it is all such crap. It's just weird junk thrown together and snowballed into some kind of absolute state of mind. THis is impossible. My mind and opinions are changing too frequently to nail down. .

      I dont understand how that happens. Is it power of suggestion? THat's what I have been experiencing here for a long time, almost from the beginning.

      Delete
  59. "Being John Malkovich"

    Did you actually watch this?

    ReplyDelete
  60. With the right person and at its very best manipulation is both a perfect dance and a drug. I can't stop even though I know I should.

    ReplyDelete
  61. It has come to me, again, the marshmallow fog. It wants me dead, and not in a pretty way, with a measure of fucking dignity: an ugly death, gruesome, where I am slaughtered and awful things are done to me.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Hi

    I haven't gone through all of the comments. I need some advice on my S -the father of my child. I'm not English, so I apologize in advance for my bad English:-) ..there isn't much info available on my own language.

    Long story short. I've known this guy for 4 years. He's 5 years younger than me but I never really felt the age difference which I found truly amazing since I've always been mature for my age. We had a great relationship for 3 years..pretty casual, since I never depended that much on anyone. He enjoyed as well that I was not the needy kind of girl..gave him a lot of space and didn't really care what he did. But I felt this huuuge commitment and comfort in him. Like the two of us were one. THEN I got pregnant (3th time), told him I would go through with it and didn't really care if he would be in or out. I was truly hurt by his rejection and irresponsibility in this matter and told him to his face. I wasn't really affraid of him, since I always were independent and strong. He did tell me that he would take my baby if I told anyone he was the father and other terrible things. It made me upset but still not affraid..it was the very 1st time he disrespected me verbally. Just thought he way kind of panicking bc of his age (22), which would be normal guy reaction in a lot of cases. He would come back..I knew he was decent inside. I was right. He came back, he told me he wanted to be a part of it and I felt calm and happy thatit would end up well.

    Well it didn't! I got seriously ill 3 months before I gave birth. This disease put my baby in great danger and changed my appearance very badly. I was terrified and scared to death. Then I saw his true colour. I was desperate..needed him to be a man and support me. He didn't. I went through it without one soul. I began to receive texts which obviously wasn't for me..he started to tell lies which I didn't believe (I'm not stupid and he knows it)..everything just fell apart. Having huge PTS..He just keeps telling bad liesand denies facts and previous events instantly. He pretends to adore our son and he fucks my brain up..I know I'm trapped. I know it will never stop. Our son is just a object for him to control me and hurt me. He makes me doubt my sence and intuition. He makes me look crazy..I feel crazy! I have to putting up with evil to protect my child..he knows. I feel suicidal and concerned about my child's future..hoping he will either die or loose interest..but I know it's not going to happen. I know he will seak costety of my baby..using everything against me. Just to break me. When I tell him he can have him if he want he turns around telling me how much he loves me and that he want our son to be with me. I know I've lost it all and that he has a plan for every decision I could make.

    How can I make him loose interest? I rather give my baby up for adoption than let him raise him. HELP!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you could kill him?

      Delete
    2. @anonymous

      Would you?

      Delete
    3. "THEN I got pregnant (3th time), told him I would go through with it and didn't really care if he would be in or out. I was truly hurt by his rejection and irresponsibility in this matter and told him to his face."

      So, you were dating a guy and you decided you want a family - never mind that he clearly doesn't want to be a father. You knew this and didn't care about his right to choose not to start a family with you. Now you're accusing your boyfriend of 3 years of all of the sudden being a sociopath because he didn't want to become a dad? And you want to give the kid up for adoption to get him away from his dad who adores him, because he knows you're a creep?

      Here is the issue: You are crazy and dishonest and you weren't prepared to be a parent.

      So here's what you do: apologize to your baby's father for treating him like a sperm donor and making a life altering decision without his consent. Try your best to take care of you baby - it's up to you now to make his life awesome! Get involved in parenting classes and start therapy. Honestly, you probably have a personality disorder that needs treatment, your baby will thank you someday. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

      QM

      Delete
    4. QM....You believe her BF is squeaky clean and was a class one act and she is the devil? WTF Get some therapy yourself!!!!

      Delete
    5. Did I say he was squeaky clean or a class act? Actually what I said is that Anonymous disregarded her boyfriend's wish not to become a father.

      Now she's dragging a baby around and playing the victim to try to manipulate him and everyone else, including you. That is kind of evil, but it's also pretty common so calling her the devil seems a little extreme, don't you think? QM

      Delete
    6. QM.....Actually, thank you for writing the above posts - I can now skip yours.

      Delete
    7. QM, did you ever consider that she might not have gotten pregnant on purpose? Even contraception fails.

      But she still has to deal with the consequences of having a son with a man who didn't want him to begin with. Who is also not above using this child to manipulate and hurt her.

      Not all women are evil, manipulative succubi that are out to trap a man by getting themselves knocked up. Sure, some are, but you don't know nearly enough about her situation to pass judgement on her like that.

      You sounded like a bitter misogynist. Just saying.

      Delete
    8. I'd certainly daydream about. I'd consider anyone who was destroying me in a very unfortunate position

      "I feel suicidal and concerned about my child's future..hoping he will either die or loose interest..but I know it's not going to happen."

      Look, I'm not the suicidal type. But if a person was uncontrollable, and i knew that I was being maneuvered by them to kill myself.....that my life was in their hands??? um yeah, And I'd consider the crime self defense, And I'd win .

      Delete
    9. ^in response to 3:04^

      Delete
    10. Getting pregnant accidently is legit, obviously, but if she terminated two pregnancies already she has access to a clinic. Read what she actually says. She's keeping the baby because she wants to, she said so. So, which is it? She's prepared to raise a kid alone (she said that was fine) or she isn't?

      If she isn't, starting a family is not a unilateral decision. Pregnancy is not a weapon, babies are not pawns and men are not ATM's. If someone wants to get pregnant against their partner's wishes, they need to be prepared to bear that responsibility alone and not turn around and call their partner a sociopath for making a different decision. That's appalling!

      Furthermore, for three years did she not know her partner was a sociopath, so she decided to have his child and then figured out his diagnosis? He showed no symptoms until this pregnancy and now he's suddenly crazy? Her story reeks of BS and it has enough holes to drive a truck through.

      If it was just her and the guy she was sleeping with I'd probably try to help her get one over, but there's a person now who has no say but is in the middle of game. Not cool. So yeah, I guess that does make me bitter. QM

      Delete
    11. You are making a lot of assumptions, QM.
      She never said she terminated the other pregnancies, now did she? Could have been miscarriages, in which case I see why she might want that child no matter what the father said.

      Also, with regards to him acting like a sociopath previously; she said their relationship up till the pregnancy was a casual one where he did whatever he wanted. He could technically heap on the charm whenever he chose to see her and she would think the sun shone out of his ass.

      After she got sick and needed him, that's when the trouble began. He went from being more or less free to having this woman needing him and relying on him all the time. Not every man can handle that crap. And if you have ever dealt with a pregnant woman, especially one who's sick, you'd also know how emotional, clingy and annoying they are. It's bound to bring out the worst in him.

      Did you have a bad experience yourself?

      Delete
    12. The reason I didn't think 'miscarriage' (although a possibility) is that she, "told him I would go through with it." So it sounds like not going through with it was an option for her. (I'm definitely not judging here.)

      Okay, it was 'casual' but it rocked her world, she "felt this huuuge commitment and comfort in him. Like the two of us were one." Again, not judging casual relationships at all, but was it or wasn't it?

      Part of why this is hard for me to follow is she's supposedly 'mature for her age' yet she's dazzled by the sun coming out his ass - and please note he's five years younger than her.

      Also, why did she flip from *not* caring if he wanted to co-parent to being "truly hurt by his rejection and irresponsibility in this matter"? Was she ready to be a single mom or wasn't she? Remember this is before she was ill. Again if she wasn't, she does not have a right to make a life decision for someone else.

      The assumption here is that this man who none of us know is a sociopath -because he didn't want to become a father (at 22 years old? with this woman? whatever the reason.) This story doesn't make sense and what she says sounds like she's backed a normal person into a situation against his will. She may, over the previous three years, have misjudged him but if he wasn't a sociopath before, he didn't just transform in the third trimester. QM

      Delete
    13. Those are some interesting points you made, QM. Keep in mind that English is not her first language, she is clearly upset and not thinking clearly. This explained at least some of the "inconsistencies" to me.

      I don't think she's mature for her age at all. Sometimes a woman can become so enamored with a young, charming man that even though the relationship is kept casual, she would think he is her soul mate and worship him.
      Men think they are getting a fuck buddy, women think they are with the man of their dreams, who will propose any day. Then reality comes to bite both in the ass. Sad really, but happens all too often.

      With regards to not caring, well, that's what a lot of women say "I want this child and I will have it no matter what." Then, thinking he is her soul mate, who feels about her the way she feels about him, she was probably expecting him to be overjoyed and jump at the chance to be a family.
      She might have been ready to be a single mother if necessary, but desperately hoping he would rise to the occasion.

      I agree with you, nobody magically transforms into a sociopath overnight. But stress does tend to bring out the not so sweet side of people that might make them appear sociopathic.

      I am not confirming her views that he is a sociopath, not at all. In fact, I doubt it. I am not saying she is a saint either. There is not nearly enough information provided to say anything of the like.

      I think she needs to come to the forum, where she can open up and divulge any necessary details. Then she can get some good old fashioned SW therapy. There are clearly serious problems in this woman's life. Unless she gets help resolving these issues, it will be the child who suffers.

      Delete
    14. I have to agree with what you've said here. English isn't her first language, although she writes very well. She does sound young and having a child is difficult, especially when the pregnancy is complicated.

      Yes, the forum would be a good place for her, but if she has access therapy would also be great. I've also heard good things about Le Mans, too. I guess it's for all parents with young kids, not just pregnant moms. They can probably direct her to other resources in the community she may not know about. QM

      Delete
    15. I'm the mother. I think I didn't make myself clear..I got pregnant accidentally 3 times. First time in the beginning of our relationship...I had an abortion bc I knew he wasn't prepared and I didn't want to hurt him. Afterwards I told him I wouldn't go through abortion again..and he seemed fine..second time I had a miscarriage. We talked about future pregnancies and he assured me that he would support me if it happened again. I infact was ready for raising my child alone..I wasn't prepared for getting seriously ill..and I wasn't prepared for a condition which ruined my face as well. No one would be..he started his evil as soon as I had this and told him I needed him. I feel like I have to put up with his shit bc of my child. I would never hurt my child. I'm suicidal bc of his game..I know I can't get out and that it would never end. If he wanted the best for his child he wouldn't play games with me..this is all a part of his game and I do not want my son.to grow up like this. I feel incredibly guilty for bringing a child into this. I had therapy..I have PTS and a strong reaction on a complicated pregnancy as well as his behaviour. I honestly don't know how to make him go away. I hate myself for wishing him dead sometimes. If something happens to me I would prefere that my son was raised in another family. I can see why some people get confused. It's hard to explain. I know he has an agends for everything...it scares me.

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    16. He turned into another person as soon as I was weak. I'm in shock. Keeps telling me he want more children with me and that he loves me..but his child is still a secret. It's hard to explain..I know it's just a game to him.

      Delete
    17. What I meant about casual was that we weren't rushing into things...not just a sexual relationship. I doubted myself..thinking he just didn't know how to handle it when I got sick, but now it's obvious torture and manipulation. I don't think he turned into a sociopath overnight. I guess women can be married to sociopaths for a long time before they find out.

      Delete
    18. I would join the forum. Can someone link it? I really didn't try to force him to anything..still aren't..I told him he doesn't have to be a part of my life and that it will not affect anything concerning our son. He insists he wants to be with me..confuses me. I can recognize some sociopathic patterns from before. It's a really long story :-(

      Delete
    19. @ Anon Mom

      Welcome to sociopath world. I'm sorry the father of your child won't acknowledge his own son. That sounds painful. I also apologize for dragging a painful story out of you like this and for my own assumptions. Miscarriages and abortions are terrible, and now it sounds like you and your child are in a precarious situation. I for one am glad you're here.

      In the U.S. there are certain legal protections available in this situation. If you felt okay disclosing where you live (not your name!) people here could suggest options, resources, etc. A few more details would help people try to help you. In the U.S. there are documents you can file about custody, but you have to go through the courts here and that's expensive. Hopefully it's easier where you are.

      I don't think you sound strong enough right now to dominate your ex, so that leaves defensive strategies. You will have to get away / neutralize.

      Do you have any ideas what your plans for the future are? QM

      Delete
    20. @ Anon Mom

      scroll to the top of the page, there's a tab 'forum' but posting here in the comments as you did is good too. QM

      Delete
    21. QM

      Thank you so much. I think I express myself wrongly. This is so complex. My dad is pure sociopath and I was involved with others previously..but they were more obvious. My ex is much more complicated..he really fooled me all these years. I see it clearly now, but some days in denial..just can't believe it. He never saw me weak before this..and I trusted him..revealed myself and every single thought and emotion. I'm affraid that if I tell him to stay away from me, that he will make my life even more terrible. He knows I feel humiliated and very vulnerable..he knows I feel trapped and anxious. He knows that his presence causes me to panic and feel ashamed..I told him:-( ..when our baby was 2 months I tried to make scheduled appointments for them to be together just so I could breath and get a hold of myself. Asked him how often he wanted to see our son. He said: EVERYDAY..just to cause a panic attack. Then a couple of weeks later I talked to a social worker for some advise..she told me that I didn't have to see him at all..that I could drop my baby of another place where they could be together. I suggested that for my ex, but he refused...he wanted to be in my home..with no strangers..no friends.. If he wanted to be with his son he wouldn't care. His only purpose is to break me down. Fortunately he went to jail...wrote me a couple of fairytales..telling that he was sorry and that he loved me deeply bla bla.. I had a couple of months to find some strength..when he got out it started all over again. It terrifies me since I know I'm stuck. Some days I pretend I don't care what he does..then he seems to loose interest, but I can't figure it out. I live in Denmark..I know my language is a little bad.

      Delete
    22. Yesterday I recieved a text out of nowhere..he said his father had a stroke. I knew it was a lie but pretended I didn't know..he asked me if he could pick up my son, if his dad's condition worsened (his family don't know about our child -he says) ..I asked him if he wanted to give his father a heart attack..and told him that my baby wasn't used to be around others and it was a bad idea. then all of a sudden he's dad was fine. This is crazy! He's arab btw :-/

      Delete
    23. No, you're expressing yourself well. It's just hard to get the whole picture, but your english is quite good.

      It does sound crazy, it sounds like he's gaslighting you. You should check out more info on that, there are websites where you can learn about gaslighting and connect to people who have gotten through it.

      I'm glad you live somewhere that has better protections for women. Are you able to access legal advice? I don't know the first thing about your laws. QM

      Delete
    24. I know. It all happened so quickly...I had my pregnancy and illness on my mind..one day i just realized what was going on. It's so painfull.
      It's pure gaslighting. And you're right...I'm not strong enough at this point and cannot afford to fail this since I have his child. It's a very few people who actually believe me..but that's his purpose. He can make me look like the crazy one. I lost my looks..the only reason he treated me good before this was his fear of loosing me and his child to another man. Since he has returned to criminal activities and always get into trouble with authorities, there's hope he will be locked up again. I noticed one thing about other sociopaths I've known..they were all very charming and needed a lot of attention from everyone including strangers. It have all been very obvious to me....but my ex were different. He's not seeking attention..he doesn't try to charm others. I saw him behave irrational and treat other people very bad if they did something wrong..but only people he didn't have any connection to. He has always been extremely protective of his family..and me before. Some how it seems like he care about a few. Fortunately he went to jail once..and probably return. He thinks he's invisible :-)

      I have full custody of my child, but at this point the baby would be inconvenient in his life. I really don't trust him. It's difficult to get away from this because of our child. I just need him to loose interest some how. I'm not a sociopath myself..but I'll kill him if he hurts my child. He only uses him to control me and as an object. He would never be able to get full custody in Denmark..if we go to court we would probably end up with shared.

      Delete
    25. I just read that I can move to another country without his permission as long as I have full custody. Maybe that would be an idea. Since he's muslim I could move to Israel..we would be safe and piss him off at the same time :-D ..just daydreaming :-)

      Delete
  63. Are there any shrinks that actually know how to deal with sociopaths? I've been to a bunch but they generally seem to get confused and disbelieving when I explain I'm a sociopath. In general, I think this reaction is just due to ignorance and perhaps fear. If there's shrinks out there you all know of who would welcome contact from true sociopaths, please let us all know.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most psychiatrists know sociopaths go into therapy to learn, be manipulative and clever and love of the game. What say you?

      Delete
    2. i had sex with my shrink
      how's that for a game )

      Delete
    3. You win! XD QM

      Delete
  64. Well not so short ;-)

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  65. Well if this is ME's last post, it was very nice meetig you all, and I wish you well, etc etc..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's Mardi Gras and she's allowed to take a day off. There are other things on the internet you can read ;)

      Delete
    2. question is this will me show here tits
      or will he give beads to girls showing there tits
      so he or she

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    3. dyslexic or trolling?

      Delete
  66. I am under water, walking as slow as molasses.The water pushes back at every step. One mile underwater is like ten on land. I am at the bottom of the vortex. I look up, but all I can see is dark. I think I could walk forever, and never see anything different than the wall of water and the dark, the dark.
    I want to give up the endless walk to nowhere, but I don't. I think someday that of the vortex will open and I will see the sky. Then, it won't be as hard.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. *that the vortex*

      Delete
    2. this reminds me of a repeating dream i have....

      i'm in a house and something is chasing me. i realize i'm dreaming and that i can fly. so i fly up toward the sky but quickly reach the top and find a ceiling. i realize i'm in another house or building or something, still inside, and it's still chasing me. i have to hurry before it reaches me, and i look for a window or some way out. i manages to escape and fly up toward the sky which now seems like a real sky and real high, but guess what i find after i struggle upward. another ceiling. and it's still chasing me.

      and so on.

      it's like there is no outside, just endless rooms within rooms within rooms within rooms. and each time this overwhelming feeling that it's the last ceiling and i will find the sky beyond it.

      Delete
    3. and a kind of desolate feeling when i hit the ceiling, a bit creepy

      Delete
    4. A house is always the person.So you feel you can't get out from your own limitations ( ceiling) like you can't get higher than the glass ceiling kind of thing. What do you think, Zoe?

      Delete
    5. Jung would say the"something" chasing you is the dark self that you're unwilling to accept or acknowledge.

      The ceiling is your head (mind)

      Delete
    6. Of course flying is "freedom!"

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    7. the ceiling is my head... thank you, anon!!!!!! i don't know why i couldn't see that! i know that if i reach the sky i will be free from what is chasing me. but what is chasing me is what i want to reach... i already knew that, and that i should face it in my dreams instead of running away.

      what's holding me back is my mind, a ceiling. when i break through the concept, there is always another one. my mind is my limitation. i just couldn't figure that out, the room within the room thing.

      lol so obvious now. it's annoying almost.

      thanks for the feedback :-)

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    8. i mean really where is there to go. it's all concepts within concepts, and even the sky is another ceiling.

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    9. Zoe.....do you ever have those pleasant flying dreams? They are the best but I can't ever remember a pleasant happy flying dream. Oh well, I will.

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    10. Flying dreams are often Out of Body experiences.

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    11. The house is you. You want to fly and you love to fly but you reach the top of yourself( your mind--the ceiling) Once you fly above the old ceiling, there is a new one, so you never feel like you can soar above the limitations which your mind is putting on you.

      That is what I get after reading what others said and trying to put it together.

      Other people can see our dreams easier than we can, often <3

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    12. that's good monica. i do feel that i could exceed my limitations, but that i should behave, play along, and stay within the limitations.

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    13. Zoe.....do you ever have those pleasant flying dreams? They are the best but I can't ever remember a pleasant happy flying dream. Oh well, I will.

      all my flying dreams are pleasant. there is a rush and feeling of freedom. i know that i can always get away from whatever is chasing me. hitting the ceiling is disturbing but it feels like a set back, not the end. i know i will just try to get to the outside. there is still the outside.

      i like being chased, knowing i can just fly away. the best way to describe it is it feels like an adventure, not a nightmare.

      what does an unpleasant flying dream feel like?

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    14. monica, what you wrote made me realize that even as i get to the outside, and as i'm flying upward toward the sky, a part of me is expecting to hit the next ceiling, and almost looking forward to it. it's like some bizarre video game where i keep reaching the next level.

      Delete
    15. i have flying dreams where there is a real sky and i've flown above clouds, but never managed to go farther out and into space. that would be cool.

      Delete
  67. I have been laughing like a crazy woman. When my friend left his electric toothbrush in the cart at Wal mart, I roared. Then, he asked me to call Wal Mart, while he was driving, to see if someone turned it in. I could not talk when the guy answered because I had hyena type laughter. I think adhesions are being opened in a wound that was bound up as tightly as they do woman's feet in China.

    ReplyDelete
  68. i have a troll brain, long day. aspirin or alcohol? :(

    ReplyDelete
  69. Ha, I guess I've got troll brain tonight, too. And I vote wine ;) QM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. no wine at home, but i put on some music and danced. weird?

      Delete
    2. not weird; just what the doctor ordered! QM

      Delete

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