Saturday, April 7, 2012

Emotion + Apathy = ?

Sociopaths do a lot of heartless everything.  What would you call one who can't tolerate wrong doing, to the point where they get very upset?  A reader writes:

I'd like to hear your opinion and the opinion of your readers on something I've been realizing lately. It seems to me that I am a very unique person, and anomaly. I seem to be a borderline sociopath, capable of feeling at both ends of the emotional spectrum. I've always been extremely intelligent, viewing the world in countless ways and expressing opinions that often earn contempt from my peers, simply because they are too narrow minded to understand my views. As such, have had trouble connecting to people around me, with most of my friends being simply people who pass the time. I've always thought that people were insufferable, cruel idiots, and yet, I am genuinely charismatic and enjoy the company of people. (The ones I can tolerate, anyway) I've only ever met one person who I thought of as my equal, and she was just as intelligent as me, which I found strange, as I thought that anyone with my level of intelligence would naturally be a logical sociopath, but she wasn't even close to one. 

When I am around people I care about, I am one of the nicest people in the world, and will go out of my way to help them, so long as my own needs are met first. However, when I'm around people I hate, or I here about criminals in the news, I am filled with a burning rage, and often fantasize about torturing and killing these people. If I ever had to kill someone for the right reason, I don't think I'd hesitate or feel even a shred of remorse. I have very strong morals, but I'm also flexible with some opportunistic actions, and I don't believe that any action is inherently evil. Rather, it is the circumstances and intent behind the action that are relevant. 

I believe that sociopathy is human nature, as all children act like sociopaths before they are taught to care for others, and while my mother made attempts to teach me empathy, my logic took over and made me ask "Why care for those who don't show me the same respect?" I don't go out of my way to manipulate people, but when I find it necessary, it is usually fun. I have my own very strong personality and I don't act with different ones as most sociopaths do, but I have a great understanding of the human mind and how to manipulate it. It just seems that, while the main focus seems to be total, emotionless sociopaths, I have an almost perfect balance of emotion and apathy, and I was wondering if anyone has ever encountered something like this before? And what do you think?

M.E.: This is interesting. I think a lot of people who are very smart naturally gravitate towards a more open minded, amoral, even pseudo sociopathic mindset. There are exceptions of course, like your intelligent friend. I think the thing that makes me least think you are a sociopath is that you want to kill criminals that you hear about on television. Why would you have such a strong reaction, if not moral outrage?

Reader:

I agree. If I were truly a sociopath, I wouldn't have such a strong reaction to crimes and immoral actions. It seems to me, then, that borderline sociopathy is a natural by-product of intelligence. In a situation like mine, it seems like it would be incorrect to even label it as a mental abonormality; rather, it is just another worldview that the common, narrow-minded empath would label and 'wrong,' as uneducated societies have always done to those who are different.

116 comments:

  1. Replies
    1. I would guess that the reader might be a malignant narcissist - like this wonderful bundle of contradictions: http://www.sociopathworld.com/2011/12/connect-dots.html

      A few questions:

      Does the guy behave callously towards others? Does he live according to his own rules/code?

      What is his score on this test: http://eqsq.com/eq_test.php

      Does he experience shame or doesn't he?

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    2. I doubt that I am a malignant narcissist.

      I do experience shame, what do you get from that? Do malignants feel shame or not?

      My score on EQ is 37 and SQ 53. And, I am a she.

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    3. Narcissists, malignant or otherwise, feel shame, but not guilt. They do plenty of bad things. They are able to convince themselves that doing those bad things is the right thing to do, and that they don't have a choice about it. There's a lot of self-delusion: http://narcissistworld.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/hello-world/


      A sociopath just does bad things, because he doesn't give a shit.

      About your scores: you are about as empathic as a normal guy. A little empathy-challenged for a female, but nothing awful.

      If you really want to get to know yourself, I suggest you do a bunch of zen meditation. You'll become aware of your thoughts and feelings on a momemt-by-moment basis. You'll gain direct experience of what you are. Work up to an hour or two a day: http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/meditation.php

      Then when you go through your day, you'll notice what happens and how you respond. You'll understand what your default patterns are. The reason you don't know yourself already is that despite living with yourself forever you've been asleep.

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    4. I feel shame I said but I also do feel guilt, a lot of it actually. But, it won't stop me from doing what I believe needs to be doing. Otherwise (if trying to avoid guilt of cutting off someone from seeking a mediocre/evil choice towards the general good), you can't make any change in the system.

      I have read plenty of Zen, and know the beginner mind. That's what helps me get over shame and guilt quickly.

      I'm all ears to what you're saying, don't think that I'm shutting down. Just explaining myself further.

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    5. Mal narcs feel a lot of shame.

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    6. Shame is feeling exposed/vulnerable/bad about your "self" when others find out something about you. Guilt is feeling bad about a specific act, not your "self".

      E.g. I kill my neighbor's dog because he annoys me. I don't feel guilt; the bastard had it coming to him. People find out, so I feel shame. No matter how much shame I feel, I don't feel guilt or remorse.

      Later on, I run over something with my car. I look back and see I just killed my cat. I feel tremendous guilt/remorse (regret the action), but no shame (I'm not at fault), because the thing just ran into the wheel well at the wrong moment.

      Sociopaths don't feel shame; they don't give a shit. Narcissists feel lots of shame but very little guilt.

      Reading about zen won't help, silly grasshopper. You can read about food all you want, but doing so won't feed you.

      Do a bunch of zen meditation (e.g. 45 minutes daily for several months). Then you'll be a lot closer to knowing yourself.

      Zen isn't about "getting over" anything, but waking up, and seeing what is in front of you.

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    7. good point.

      awareness is a huge landscape, yet most people are content to exist within a very thin slice of it.

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    8. Alright, to the bastard who is impersonating me, burn in hell. I wrote that letter. I'm a guy, not a girl. Now, as for the question as to whether I feel guilt or shame, I feel guilt when I do something I believe is wrong (unless, of course, I have a decent reason) But I do not feel shame. Other people's opinions of me do not affect me in the slightest.

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  2. I can relate to the Reader somewhat, especially: "..and while my mother made attempts to teach me empathy, my logic took over and made me ask 'Why care for those who don't show me the same respect?'" However I don't relate to the moral outrage. I chuckle when I read about criminals in news articles, and see them (at least those that are intelligent) as being like brethren. Fuck common morality, seriously. At best, its as fallible as western democracy.

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  3. aspie? (with borderline or bps)

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  4. reader wrote...
    I agree. If I were truly a sociopath, I wouldn't have such a strong reaction to crimes and immoral actions.


    if you saw society as one of your toys or possessions, as yours, and someone was screwing with that, it's conceivable that you might. a narcissist might have a strong reaction too but it would be more about preserving the image.

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  5. Borderline sociopathic lol who made that shit up. Everyone is borderline sociopathic, except for the full on sociopaths. All humans exhibit sociopathic traits at some points in their existance. What makes a pd are lifelong, pervasive patterns.

    I would say you are a normal, selfish human being. Definitely not as special as you think you are, though. Just a bit smarter than the average sheople.

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    1. Whatever Sarah, like you can talk. You're the biggest sheep on this site.

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    2. One of the only comments on this site that isn't utter bullshit

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    3. it's as we're all running around with two types of cookie cutters, square and round, then comes along a chocolate chip pentagon.

      "it's a borderline square!" shout some.

      "idiots! it's clearly round!" shout the others back, "but eccentric, and we can fix that."

      (i'm hungry)

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    4. Sarah equals Sheeple lol

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  6. I have not read any replies to color me. I think I am like the person who wrote this. That is how I think but I lost confidence in it.My mother made me doubt myself so much that I lose confidence in my essential nature which it exactly like the person who wrote that article. I have great empathy but I need to put it away and only take it out when the time is right. Other than that, I need to be cold like that person. That is intelligence.

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    1. Go beat her, regain confidence.

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    3. mean that negatively, I mean do you think you are among those whose purpose it is to discover truths or dissect meanings? Do you see yourself as post modern, burdick or Medusa in some ways? Would you enjoy seeing the world the way that they do? If the answer is no... which it is, then continue to feel your life and the gratification and pain that you get from emotional rewards. You only wish not to feel because you dispose yourself to constant agonies. Now you wish not to feel them... instead, begin exposing yourself to joys in addition to your suffering and maintain the bliss of ignorance to eating the aapple of knowlege.

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  7. "Mme de Renal used to find reasons for doing what her heart dictated: this girl from high society only lets her heart be moved when she has proved to herself with sound reasons that it ought to be moved."

    - The Red and the Black, Stendhal

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    1. what's the diagnosis for this sort of thinking?

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    2. i think i chopped it out too narrowly...

      the quote means some find reasons for doing what their hearts dictate and others can only be moved when sound reasons permit it.

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    3. empaths fall in both camps. narcissists in the first, and sociopaths in the second.

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    4. I see.

      I'd never listen to my heart when it dictates lust over an ass, hence filter through sound reasoning. But, when it comes to justice I don't let sound reasoning of 'what's in it for you' get in my way, and follow my heart and instinct.

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  8. I think I go through periods where I choose not to feel because I see it isn't worth it. Sometimes, only when I see potential for a high payoff will I let go. I used to squander loyalty, love, elation, hate even, only noticing the risks in stomach pangs. The pangs are still there. They tell me stuff I either accept or disregard, but they don't leave me. I don't want to live this way. I really don't. I'm stifled. I feel contrived. But as I admit this, i realize I'm not.

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  9. Wow as I read this I started to question if it was me who wrote this then forgot that I did. This is so eerily me when I read this. Every sentence seems like how I would type, my ideas, my behaviors, my view on the world. Never have I got this feeling from an article. This individual must be extremely similar to me.

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    1. Me too. What is your diagnosis of yourself? Let's call you anon 1 and me anon 2.

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  10. Is it just me or should we expect any empath lingering long on this site to be just like this reader in attitude?

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    1. Most don't linger long. The ones who do are already unstable, by and large.

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    2. Ya think? lol

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  11. It's borderline kissing ass, or maybe just full on kissing ass. The guy is very smart and the result of that with a normal pathology is that he is naturally close to a sociopathic way of thinking. Because that is really smart. Please, you are an idiot.

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  12. "This is interesting. I think a lot of people who are very smart naturally gravitate towards a more open minded, amoral, even pseudo sociopathic mindset"

    This is more bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if ME is the reader in this case. Or other ones.

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    1. I bet she is the reader on most articles of this format. I bet 20% of the posts on this site is done by one guy with a lot of time on his hand. How does she have so much time anyways? Maybe she is a burned victim who can't go out side?

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  13. how is that bullshit, aspie? many intelligent people of past generations were considered amoral. they led the way to what is acceptable today. without the amoral to challenge established ways of thought, society would stagnate.

    amoral is the wolf snapping at your heels sheep.

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    Replies
    1. and so were many dumb people zoe

      being smart has nothing to do with it

      also, sociopathic amorality has nothing to do with what is being talked about here

      it was the compassionate people that brought worthwhile change

      not sure what you mean with that last sentence

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    2. nothing sinister i assure you :)

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    3. Flaubert, Darwin, D.H. Lawrence..

      your turn

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    4. zoe, i remember in the past that you mentioned you felt somewhat sociopathic, and that you were apparently actively working to make yourself more so (with me's help) ... i think you felt that you still had a conscience though... sorry if i remembered this wrong... where are you now with it? do you have empathy and conscience? what was your past like?

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    5. lol. aspie are you ME?

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    6. "Flaubert, Darwin, D.H. Lawrence..

      your turn"

      is that really you zoe?

      sounds very ego-ish

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    7. lol zoe, i have sometimes thought that you were ME

      no it's silly me, as in aspie, not the S

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    8. aspie, how is it possible to reduce all of humanity into two or three labels? how is it possible that people exist who take such a reduction seriously?

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    9. how am i being ego-ish? i threw out some names to support my blanket statement. i only threw out three. now ten or more would have been ego-ish...

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    10. you seem very defensive, many criminals support an amoral viewpoint, some of them are not very intelligent, is this also who you would point to? i don't think you would

      your bias is showing zoe...

      i don't know anyone who "reduces humanity to 2 or 3 labels"?

      how is it possible? can you tell me how it is possible (since it apparently is in your view)?

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    11. zoe, i remember in the past that you mentioned you felt somewhat sociopathic, and that you were apparently actively working to make yourself more so (with me's help) ... i think you felt that you still had a conscience though... sorry if i remembered this wrong... where are you now with it? do you have empathy and conscience? what was your past like?

      i learn by doing, aspie. i flirted with the idea that i might be one, and sympathized with the sociopaths. all my previous comments still stand. but since you ask..mostly my sympathies were (and still are) a reaction to narcissism.

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    12. i don't know anyone who "reduces humanity to 2 or 3 labels"?

      empath, sociopath, narcissist

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    13. your bias is showing zoe...

      yeah toward the intelligent. so shoot me.

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    14. okay actually it's toward the aware, the awake, and away from the sleep walkers. but i'm learning to empathize with narcissists! for sure sw has helped with that. perhaps ME is covertly teaching me to be a better empath?

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    15. is that good that it leans toward the intelligent in your view? why?

      i think in reality most people acknowledge that there really is no such thing as normal and that we all can do good and evil acts (or behaviours) and that we can all be narcissistic, sociopathic and even wildly empathic.

      some people are at the extremes of these and these have their cautions... a real sociopath for example really cares nothing for you regardless of your viewpoint... unless you mean something or have some value for him/her...

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    16. the way i see narcissists is: they're never quite there, fully in the present you know? it's like their minds and words are forever racing to sort things out, like they're struggling to come to their senses but not quite getting there. like someone who had a blow to the head and is still reeling from it, and babbling, but making great effort to sort themselves out. when i think of them like that i feel some empathy. it also makes them look a bit more comical and a bit less sinister.

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    17. do you have some direct exp with narcissicts? I'm sensing that you have some anger with this topic.

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    18. some people are at the extremes of these and these have their cautions... a real sociopath for example really cares nothing for you regardless of your viewpoint... unless you mean something or have some value for him/her...

      i can't stand glib. i like real. i hate to see anyone or anything go hungry. i also hate being squeezed like a sardine into a crowd. i'm an empath, aspie.

      however, the label thing doesn't do it for me. we all slice up the world differently. a predatory sociopath messing with my head is no different to me than a religious zealot empath. neither charms my mind.

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    19. do you have some direct exp with narcissicts? I'm sensing that you have some anger with this topic.

      not much. but they're such a pain. i'm learning to shut the energy if that makes sense, to not put out. it's rather fun experimenting with them, the look in their eyes... now they have you, now they don't, and so on.

      are these what other people think of as sociopaths? to me they're all narcissists. they have one look, one face only. loud on the outside, so insecure in the middle. basically aspie, i haven't always been very careful about the company i keep.

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    20. finally, i'm here because as "broken" as people here seem, the really broken ones are the ones who aren't aware of it.

      mostly it's fun reading the posts, and sharing thoughts.

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    21. well, sociopaths in some aspects are not very real though right? they may use some elements of "real" but this is not their real nature, they blend in or acclimate to the environment usually with a goal of conquest and many enjoy creating suffering.... i notice in the past that me would point out the bads of the n, but in some ways, the bad of the s seems much worse.... the things is, the natural way of the S involves a lot of deception and manipulation.... they really are liars often. they are puzzling trixters with your demise just as well as the anwser

      why not ignore these "toxic" people? why look into their eyes at all... just deal and move past them

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    22. i think in reality most people acknowledge that there really is no such thing as normal and that we all can do good and evil acts (or behaviours) and that we can all be narcissistic, sociopathic and even wildly empathic.

      but there are norms. and you just reminded of something i had meant to post earlier. erin referred to me as an independent thinker in a recent post. i'm flattered, but i don't really understand the term. how can anyone with a head on their shoulders, in which presumably resides a brain, not be an independent thinker? what else is there for the brain to do but think? i mean it's a brain, not a foot right? if the head didn't have a brain in it then it wouldn't be the head, it would be just another limb.

      but people settle into norms, and become "little" thinkers. the independent thinkers are all the ones on the outside, the ones who haven't settled, which includes the good and the bad. there may be no normal people, but there are norms. the real question is what makes a person settle and accept them?

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    23. why not ignore these "toxic" people? why look into their eyes at all... just deal and move past them

      work, family, etc. you have to learn to deal when you're stuck with them too.

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    24. erin is still around? (lol)


      i hear a lot of labeing (and generalizations) by you zoe in what you wrote


      what do you think makes people settle and accept (norms) and not become "big thinkers" or independent thinkers?

      is it intelligence or something else?

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    25. aspie, i'm calling it a night. it was fun chatting... been a while.

      'nite and happy easter. :)

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    26. is it intelligence or something else?

      sleep walker fear?

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    27. thanks zoe... very nice to chat with you too and I hope you have a great day... happy easter!

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    28. i hear a lot of labeing (and generalizations) by you zoe in what you wrote

      you misunderstood me. by settle i meant settle on the inside, same thing for adopting a norm. a person can settle for a life of crime too. by settle i mean stop thinking and living, and start repeating yourself. the answer is fear.

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    29. all my friends seem to characterize their lives as one full of conflicts and trials and uncertainty... does one fully ever settle?

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    30. i think though what you said resonates with me on a deeper level, in the gut so to speak, i feel you have a point there

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    31. curious, zoe, but how does one in your view get to this "settle" point where one perhaps is ruled or constricted or controlled by fear and repetition, and more importantly, how does one break free?

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    32. be an artist with your life?

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    33. finally, i'm here because as "broken" as people here seem, the really broken ones are the ones who aren't aware of it.

      I'm accutely aware of it. I've been told too many times not to show it here, that to be vulnerable is unsafe. You kind of have to start to believe people when they tell you stuff lol. So I try to stay on the positive here. Might as well, though.

      I'm in my own little hell. Why would I flaunt it, and why the fuck here?

      Have you never felt broken? You are so very cool here one would never know if that were the case.

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    34. I don't mean to sound nasty. You're very generous. I am a bit curious about your motivation here. It's hard to tell. And are you a sociopath?

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  14. My guess is that any body on here claiming to be a sociopath is not.

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    3. Yeah, I'd agree with this. I'm not sure why I'm here myself - I'm just bored, I guess. My father was a diagnosed sociopath; there are Cluster B personalities right throughout his family. I'm reasonably confident that most people who self-diagnose as sociopaths are probably actually narcissists (my father understood his diagnosis, but he found it amusing). I'd be lying if I said I hadn't considered the possibility that I could be a sociopath, of course - it's a question that arises quite naturally when your father is a sociopath. I did have a Conduct Disorder as a teenager, but sometimes Conduct Disorders arise when kids adopt the behaviors as protective measures.

      It does sound like your mother could be a sociopath, though her erratic behaviour could also be due to other causes (drug addiction, for one example). Unless she's been diagnosed, I suppose it's impossible to say with any certainty.

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    5. q1605 said..
      Zoe. Being an empath I want you to know I wasn't attacking you personally.


      i didn't take it personally, or see it as an attack. and you make a valid point. but always better to explore and question existence than not right?

      I AM an empath. But I was raised by my mother who I think meets the definition.

      from what you write she could be a sociopath, and at the extreme end of the spectrum if you believe in a spectrum. it must have been a tough way to grow up. good for you that you got away at 15.

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    7. I am not a sociopath. Bit as my avatar indicates. I am a bit of a man pig.

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    9. what is a man pig?

      i suppose i'm an empath if i have to pick a label. this reminds me of the time i went for minor surgery and they wouldn't admit me until i gave them my religion. they wouldn't accept agnostic - i'm sure only because didn't know how to bury one.

      how about nonpath?

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    10. how did your mother gaslight you?

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    12. i don't doubt it. your mother is a huge narcissist. was she menopausal during the air vent incident? growing old is a bitch for narcissists and they don't take well to change. if the narcissists in my own family were hot or cold, they thought something was wrong with the rest of reality. it was never them.

      the game playing you describe sounds a lot like an old aunt i have who a friend described as evil.

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    15. Sorry I am being staled by a fucking retard so I pulled my comments

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    16. you mean stalked? would you like me to delete mine?

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  15. The reader actually sounds like a malignant narcissist to me, personally.

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  16. What are you narc obsessed freaks gonna do when the new dsm comes out?

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  17. "It seems to me, then, that borderline sociopathy is a natural by-product of intelligence."

    LMAO. Oh man. I really laughed out loud at that one.

    As Selena states, this person seriously strikes me as a malignant narcissist.

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  18. Hi Sam Vaknin. If you really want a cult following try creating a fabricated history, new values, roles, ranks, and rituals. Take some notes from Nietzsche; will to power, particularly on value giver and receiver. I'd actually like to see you create one. But stop with the malignant narcissist crap, it really makes you look stupid.

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  19. my EQ is 26 my SQ is 105 I am female, thoughts anyone?

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  20. it is what and how you choose to be and if you stick with it without doubting and thinking indifferent of how you act or think then it grows and becomes who you really are, in my opinion

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  21. The weakness lies in the manifest need to assign the crisp & correct category

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  23. My name is Weslie am from Canada i am very happy for the wonderful work Dr ogun has done for me i got married to my lovely husband last year February and we have a lovely son. things was going well with us and we are living happily. until one day my husband started behaving in a strange manner i could not understand, i was very confused with the way he treat me and my son. later that month he did not come home again and he called me that he want a divorce, i asked him what have i done wrong to deserve this from him, all he was saying is that he want a divorce that he hate me and do not want to see me again in his life, i was sad and also frustrated i did not know what to do,i was sick for more than a week because of the divorce. i love him so much he his everything to me without him my life is incomplete. i told one of my child hood friend and she told me to contact a spell caster that she has listen to one woman who testify about dr ogun and she has been hearing about him that i should try him i never believe in all this spell casting of a thing but i just say i should try if something will come out of it. i contacted Dr ogun for the return of my husband to me, he told me that my husband have been taken by another woman. that she cast a spell on him that is why he hate me and also want to divorce me. then he told me that has to cast a spell on him that will make him return to me and my son, he casted the spell and after 1 day my husband came back home and started apologizing he said that he love me so much that he did not know what happen to him that he left me. it was the spell that Dr ogun casted on him that make him come back to me,right now am so happy again. thank you Dr ogun for what you have done for me i would have been nothing today if not for your great spell. this is to every one who is facing divorces or heart break by your lover i want you to contact him now because he can do it for you his powers is great and dont have any side effect in the future contact him through his mail: oguntempl@gmail.com .contact him now and your problems will be solve for ever.once again thanks to dr ogun

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  24. I had doubts about magic spells after purchasing many spells that never worked and actually decided to never buy a spell again. I have tried different spell casters..Some of them never answered me after I paid and were obvious scammers, some really cast a spell but for some reason it didn't work. Then I saw a video on youtube with a person who was mentioning she had results with DR,Anita. Despite the suspicions I had her site looked real so I gave spells a last try. It's probably the best decision I ever made in my life because it worked and my boyfriend came back with me After I broke up with my ex I spent a lot of time wishing that I could just turn the clock backwards.He helped me do just that. In fact our relationship feels like the break up never even happened. We have never been this happy or passionate, all thanks to mama anita. If you're looking for a good spell caster look no further,you can contact her straight on (mamaanita.lovespellsolution@gmail.com). Website.. http://kelvinlargemyself.wix.com/anita

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