Monday, April 16, 2012

Violence: sociopathy vs. autism

With the anniversary of the Columbine massacre comes renewed media interest in psychopathic killers on the rampage. Okay sure, some killers are psychopaths. But psychopaths are not the only sometime-violent members of the empathy-challenged club. Ann Bauer recounts her struggles with a particularly violent autistic son who had to be institutionalized. Under the sub-headline "For years I thought of his autism as beautiful and mysterious. But when he turned unspeakably violent, I had to question everything I knew."
His destruction was utterly senseless yet brilliantly thorough: He submerged his computer, stereo and iPod in water; threw puzzle pieces and Styrofoam cups into the toilet and flushed them, plugging the pipes literally dozens of times a week; and urinated on every square inch of his room: bed, walls, floor, closet, everything but the ceiling and that only because he had not (yet, I suspect) figured out how.

When I asked him why he did these things he would say, eyes narrow like a night creature, "I don't like being caged."
. . .
[W]hen I showed up at the group home that morning, he was drinking coffee and pacing and still not dressed. I went into his room, took some clothes from the closet, handed them to him. And hinting at what he was about to do only with a small sigh, as if to say, "I've had enough," my son picked me up and threw me across the room.
. . .
Secretly, as if committing a sacrilege, I searched online using keywords such as "autism" and "violence" and "murder." What I found was confusing. There were roughly a dozen recent articles about heinous acts committed by people with autism and Asperger's syndrome, but each was followed by editorials and letters written by autism advocates vigorously denying a link. There were a few studies from the '80s and '90s, but the results -- when they showed a higher rate of violent crime among people with autism -- appeared to have been quieted or dismissed.

On the other hand there were, literally, thousands of heartwarming stories about autism. A couple of the most widely read were written by me. For years I had been telling my son's story, insisting that autism is beautiful, mysterious, perhaps even evolutionarily necessary. Denying that it can also be a wild, ravaging madness, a disease of the mind and soul. It was my trademark as an essayist, but also my profound belief.
. . .
Back when Andrew was in junior high school, my mother had a friend whose adult son had only recently been diagnosed with autism. He'd been dysfunctional since childhood, failing at school, unable to make a friend or keep a decent job. At 35 he was still living at home, collecting carts at the local grocery store, and taking anticonvulsants (Tegretol was the unofficial treatment of that era for outbursts) to control the violent urges he'd been having for 15 years.

"You think he's better now," my mother's friend once said as we watched a young, laughing Andrew out the window, playing tag with his brother and sister in my parents' backyard. "But wait 'til he's older. Then you'll understand. "

I hated her and was furious that she wished for our downfall -- also that her dumb, psychopathic son had been given the same label as my beloved child. Autism had become oddly fashionable; my mother's friend was wealthy. Clearly she'd gone "diagnosis shopping." My son, I vowed, would be nothing like hers.
. . .
The chairman of Trudy Steuernagel's department rose at her memorial service to proclaim, "Autism doesn't equal violence." And this probably is mathematically correct: Autism does not always equal violence. But I do believe there may be a tragic, blameless relationship. Neither Sky nor Andrew means to be murderous -- of this I am sure -- but their circumstances, neurology, size and age combine to create the perfect storm.
. . .
Mine, I decide, must be in part to break the silence about autism's darker side. We cannot solve this problem by hiding it, the way handicapped children themselves used to be tucked away in cellars. In order to help the young men who endure this rage, someone has to be willing to tell the truth.
I don't believe auties and aspie's are bad any more than I believe sociopaths are bad. I'm just saying that we have a lot more in common than anybody would like to admit, a fact that may be surprising given the choir-boy image auties and aspie's have in society compared to the soulless demon image that sociopaths have. If the neurodiversity movement embraces sometime-violent auties and aspies, it should include sociopaths as well.

91 comments:

  1. Intriguing essay and to say the least it has my mind moving fastly because at the age of 35 I have given birth to what the Birth to three system says a child with autism who has "inappropiate behavior and tantraums" kindly speaking at the age of 14 months he will try to ripe someone face off like a pitbull and pee in someones face when they are sleep each act is calculated and quiet and when told not to do an act there is a uncontrollable desire to just accomplish it. I am living in a class status who will in the future lock my baby boy under the jail and when the baby face with these acts are now precieved as adorable and friendly cause he gives a hug or sly comments of being fresh for wantig to kiss, hey I am intelligent enough and sad enough to find so much comfort secretly that my son with all my efforts to train him will it be enough. His father now sits in a jail cell 30 years old and hid the fact he was autistic and pretended very well now I a college educated woman is left alone to raise the element of society America is simply advertising only half the truth and it is the hardest job on earth and in some ways I pray to God I can crack this mystery to save my sons father and my son, the violence can be replaced with love will it truly calm there conflicting acts and the inner desires that are driven to commit crimes. He is sitting now in 20 hour lock up and no friends and family feels there life is better, my how secrets can destroy the future of a innocent person Now I am dealing with two children from a sociopathic behavior because I am vulnerable.

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    1. Did they teach punctuation in the college you attended? Geez.

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    2. To anonym.uass: too bad you can't grasp the meaning of the reply written at 12:47 A.M. By someone expressing a pretty bleak situation. And u mention punctuation. I didn't mean to rant. I knew I had to keep sentences short for reading level. Oh! I will use exclamation marks. FUCK YOU!!!

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    3. Been 6 years. I so hope things are better.

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  2. Interesting, but I think deeply flawed (the main problem is that we need to embrace difference INCLUDING its dark side, it's not like the majority don't have a dark side too).

    I'm autistic, and I do think the autistic rights movement is in denial about this, and is selling out autistic people who are getting targeted by the state for violence. Autistic people can become violent in very specific circumstances, one of these is meltdown which triggers fight-or-flight, another is if the autistic sense of equity and honour is badly offended, it feels almost obligatory to retaliate in some way. Now of course, when NT people get caught in fight-or-flight reactions and use violence, they get off on temporary insanity or necessity defences; when they are slighted so badly that they retaliate, it's considered mitigating circumstances because their motives are understood. When autistic people do it, it's considered inexplicable, random, for no reason. As far as I'm concerned, it's first-off the NT world's fault for pushing us till we snap, secondly these people have no right to judge us with all the skeletons in their own collective closet, and when they can't make sense of our motives, and thirdly they shouldn't be allowed to try us since they don't understand us well enough to ensure humane treatment in prison etc. If NT people can't break their perverse attachment to punishment, then at least they need to let us try our own people so they get fair trials.

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    1. You are basically comparing temper tantrums to psychopathy. The difference is something you really need to get the factson Facts, nnot just an uninformed opinion. My son had Asperger's as a child and had those fight or flight tendencies which resulted in all kinds of violent behavior. Got used to it. Now at 16 he presents psychopathic traits. Believe me, I live with the threat of his violent thoughts and urges to strangle me daily. Not just me but anyone. I just happen to be in his presence, Nurtured and defended his behaviors of Asperger's until He was hospitalized and I met my new son who I learned is a master manipulator and liar. Heartbreaking but real. Saw the intent in the eyes of my formerly vulnerable son turn to hatred and evil.

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    2. 'First off it's the NTs fault for making us snap'.
      How is everyone supposed to know exactly what it is that makes each individual with autism snap? How are we supposed to know who has autism and what their individual needs are? How can we be to blame if each person has a specific trigger? Hypersensitivity is what it says it is: extreme sensitivity. We cannot prevent our filters from working. they just do. I understand that some see autism as a gift while others see it as a curse but everyone else on the planet cannot be held responsible for one person's triggers. We do not try to piss you off. What is your ideal vision for our co-existence?

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    3. anonymous said...
      As far as I'm concerned, it's first-off the NT world's fault for pushing us till we snap, secondly these people have no right to judge us with all the skeletons in their own collective closet, and when they can't make sense of our motives, and thirdly they shouldn't be allowed to try us since they don't understand us well enough to ensure humane treatment in prison etc. If NT people can't break their perverse attachment to punishment, then at least they need to let us try our own people so they get fair trials.


      that's naive, anonymous. it's the way of the world to push until one snaps. how successful you are depends on the ability to tolerate the pushing. and with respect to that, we all have different set points. what makes you think that a group of people who have a low tolerance to stressors would be able to try you fairly?

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    4. your grand answer is that its the way of the world to push someone until they snap? sounds like the words of a true sociopath to me. auspys arent the problem. the REAL problem is the sheep of the world that will jump on a bandwagon to turture others in any way shape of form just because "everyone else is doing it so why shouldnt I?". this is a narrow minded way of thinking and is the TRUE cause of 99% of the evil that occurs on a daily basis. try having an origional THOUGHT using some actual MORALS as a basis for a true CHANGE! im auspy and ive never hurt anyone onless they are hurting sumone i love otherwise i can take ALOT of crap. but hurt sumone i love and i will go thru them like a truck

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    5. the above post @ feb, 27, 2013 at 8:09 am is mine

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    6. ~From a Sociopath;
      You all obviously human, deal with it, you should probably just ignore whats going on and try to further you personal survival, if idiots want to be idiots, let them.
      If their sheep, that's their problem, not yours, if their killers, thats their victims problem, it's only your's if their in your immidiate area.
      The only reason I'm leaving this, honestly, is an interest in how you'll react.

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    7. I have autsim and have been treated so unfairly by normal people who make me feel even less normal and like I shouldn't be there. But there are huge differences between autism and psychopathy. A psychopath can be very social and can tell alot from a persons facial expression and will go to any length to get what they want, a person with autism won't have a clue what a person feels when looking at there face let alone how to use it against them. If they were the same thing autistic people would be able to completely hide there disability as if they didn't have one. I have no criminal record, I cry if my dad accidentally hurts a bug when I ask him to put outside. I cry because I miss my Nan most importantly I still have feelings psychopaths care about no one. They don't even care what happens to them even when there caught its like the end of a game. I care what other people think of me that's why I get so socially anxious psychopaths don't care. And I don't threaten or torture people for being different or not giving me my own way if they don't understand me I just go home and be by myself. I hate myself for it, the only person I hate is my self. Psychopaths hate everything but themselves. Its not the same thing. If your child always seemed sweet then suddenly started abusing you maybe he was misdiagnosed with autism when he is actually a psychopath.

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    8. Coming from someone who is currently an adult seeking help, with my psychologist thinking i might have Autism or Sociopathy, or maybe both.

      I was raised as a kid who my parents thought was a genius. I excelled in math and science and was even deemed the Human Calculator in elementary school by my classmates. In my teens, I began to realize how different i was from my peers and how there were things i just didn't get. I then forced myself to read hours of body language and communication articles online to essentially teach myself communication. I began to have friends then, and even a long term girlfriend when i was 17. We broke up and it ended terribly. College didnt go to well for me, and i kept asking to stay until my parents completely cut me off. I also had a girlfriend 19-20 that also ended badly. Since then i've been to rehab for my drug problem, living back in with dad (parents got divorced when i was 4, dad moved away for long time). Throughout my entire life, some actions i have done are completely repulsive. However, i could always justify it at the time. I didnt see my actions as evil, i didnt see them as hurting others. I realized i could be manipulative, and i purposely tried hard not to manipulate people, but it still always came out in times of strife, most notably around my family members. I meant no harm to anybody, but caused a lot of it. The point of this story is that i always tried to be a good person, and I'm sure that your sons and daughters who might be going through the same thing i have are also trying to be good people. Please, have patience, and if you notice one of our antisocial tendencies emerging, such as manipulation, please realize that it comes second-nature to us and it is not meant as evil, we just do not know how else to communicate.

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    9. I have none of these diagnosis but your life sounds like it has been better than mine.

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  3. I am very concerned about the views and misconceptions of may people surrounding autism and acceptable behaviours. I am the parent of two children diagnosed on the Spectrum as well as an educator of children with Autism or Asperger's syndrome. Autism and other identifications can never be used to excuse violent behaviours against other people! The identification may be used to explain behaviours and help educate and treat such individuals who commit violent acts against others, but acceptance of the acts themselves can never be condoned. Neuro-typical people who are accused of criminal activities are NOT deemed a free ticket by the defence of insanity. Quite contrary, to beliefs the defence is saved for people who have been identified with an a-typical behaviour repertoire, such as sociopathy, schizophrenia, etc and are deemed incapable of being rational and in essence unable to comprehend the consequences of their actions. Therefore the defence is typically reserved for the a-typical subgroup of individuals who are deemed through much medical and clinical evidence as being incapable of comprehending right from wrong. I have worked and lived with a wonderful group of autism spectrum people who are witty, intelligent and I feel no threat to society, but there is a subset of individuals wether they have the Autism diagnosis, or sociopathy diagnosis, who commit heinous and unthinkable crimes, with no evidence of remorse or concern for human suffering. This we can not justify regardless of sensory issues, tolerance/rigidity issues and anti-social behaviours, which are deemed to necessary in order to identify the major traits of Autism. We can not condone these actions regardless of wether intent or comprehension of actions is present. The safety of the individual and society must be forefront in our laws and how we tolerate behaviours from humans regardless of identification. Autism is no excuse, nor is a reason of insanity, when harm is inflicted on another human being. An identification of Autism gives an explanation of the behaviours exhibited but is not an excuse. We need to move forward and teach people what acceptable behaviours are and how to communicate their frustrations in a positive manner. It would be no different if a neuro-typical person harmed an autistic person, both are wrong because they cause harm to another human being. I would not change a single quirky or other harmless behaviour from my autistic children that is what makes them who they are and I love them for who they are. But I will not tolerate physical aggression or harm inflicted on anyone, not even from my own flesh and blood . I will teach them how to deal with the many sensory and communication hurtles they encounter on a daily basis in a humane and acceptable manner. I know they are destined for great things because I believe in them and see their potential. I want them to be productive and positive members in our society, while keeping their core identity intact.

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  4. I will teach them how to deal with the many sensory and communication hurtles they encounter on a daily basis in a humane and acceptable manner. I know they are destined for great things because I believe in them and see their potential. I want them to be productive and positive members in our society, while keeping their core identity intact.

    We have several sociopaths here who do just that for themselves.

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    1. im sure many phsycopaths feel they are "teaching" the auspy to "take a joke". how about helping them by teaching the people around them not to pick on people in the first place. i mean since they are sociopaths, the "nt" sheep will likely follow thier example.

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    2. Picking on people is what sociopaths do. My son has autisium and his father is a sociopath. My son can't talk and he does get violent when he doesent get his way but at least I know he loves me. His father on the other hand loves no one but himself. So its the blind leading the blind in that case.

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  5. “Autism and other identifications can never be used to excuse violent behaviours” - why on earth not? Neurological evidence shows that the parts of the brain which would control or process 'behaviour' switch off during meltdowns – see here: http://www.autism-help.org/education-behavior-aspergers.htm The parts which would be aware of consequences, both real (such as hurting someone) and invented (such as punishment), switches off during meltdowns – and punishing meltdowns DOES NOT work, and is proven not to work. You may as well say “epilepsy is no excuse for violent behaviours” if someone hits someone during a fit. Worse, meltdowns can be brought on by external stressors outside an individual's control. In law this should be recognised as 'temporary insanity' and 'absence of mens rea'. These terms apply to similar mental states by NT people, look up “battered person defence” for example. The fight-or-flight response is nearly always an effective defence for NT people. If there was any LOGIC – as opposed to PREJUDICE – in the legal system they would be applied to autistic meltdowns too.

    I also don't think we understand what NT people call “right and wrong”. To be precise – our amygdala (compassion, imaginative empathy) works fine (in fact above NT levels) but the prefrontal cortex (which processes social conventions) does not – we can't be expected either to intuitively know social conventions, to apply them as others do, or to feel them to be moral (this is the opposite of sociopaths, whose prefrontal cortex works – they understand conventional moral constraints – but their . It is unfair and unreasonable to expect an autistic person to understand and identify with moral standards set up by and for NT's.

    “We can not condone these actions regardless of wether intent or comprehension of actions is present. The safety of the individual and society must be forefront in our laws and how we tolerate behaviours from humans regardless of identification” - this is vile, authoritarian nonsense – by this standard, accidentally killing someone is the same as murdering them – unknowingly bringing flowers in a room, which cause someone with an allergy to have a life-threatening fit, is the same as attempted murder – a person should still be convicted of drink-driving even if they can prove their drink was spiked – a person who accidentally walks out of a shop without paying for something should be charged with theft – a person who sits on a wall and it collapses under them, should be charged with vandalism. A blind person walks into someone they don't know is there – that's assault, just the same as if they bodychecked someone on purpose? A deaf person fails to stop for police, that's a crime? Why, for this matter, shouldn't a rock which falls on someone's head be legally liable – it isn't intending to hurt, it doesn't understand what it does, but if this is irrelevant, then a rock, too, must have moral responsibility. It is very clear that, in law, WHENEVER an NT person does something they can't help, or even something they can help but only at huge cost, it gets put down as necessity defence or self-defence or temporary insanity or lack of criminal intent etc etc. It is any coincidence that the suspension of the basic principle of justice that something cannot be wrong without intent is ONLY used to justify the continuing fascistic persecution of the psychologically different, and NEVER used to protect vulnerable people FROM NT people and their obsession with maintaining their supremacy (safety FOR THEM not others) above all else?

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    1. Surely all people with autism want to feel safe and know that the law will try to protect them too. How would you feel if a person with autism killed another person with autism? You seem to believe there is an 'us and them'thing going on. No. We just want everyone to know that they have the right to feel safe.

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    2. Very well put, OP.For the person who answered before me: there actually is an us and them thing going on, and it would be really difficult for an autistic person to push another one to murder , I think the main reason an autistic person would kill is wilfull abuse, wilfull torture even . Evil is what could make us kill.

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  6. The position that 'safety of individuals/society is paramount' is a fascist-eugenic position which in fact means that the safety of NT individuals is primary over the safety of autistic individuals ('individuals' used in an unmarked sense means NT, and 'society' is an instance of magical thinking whereby NT people attribute a collective essence to their homogeneous responses). Padding it around with the excuse that harmless eccentricity will be tolerated may serve to disguise this core, but it does not get away from the fact that, when push comes to shove, NT supremacy is primary in this position.

    Have you every thought what effect your intolerance has on autistic people, who become afraid to go out in public in case we have a meltdown? What effect it has on people who go through life believing they are guilty for things they are not guilty for, and cannot stop? It is a matter of fact that most autistic people grow up traumatised, many autistic people develop anxiety, depression, PTSD-like symptoms, social avoidance, etc., as a direct result of the prejudice against meltdowns and the resultant risk of persecution. At any time, for reasons outside our control, we could be forced into a meltdown and then punished for the meltdown. We can't stop it. Do the order-fanatics have the slightest idea how this feels?! It's exactly the same as if we were at risk of being pounced on and attacked at any point. It hangs over our heads like an axe. It's like we're walking a tightrope over a pit of crocodiles whenever we're among NT people or out in public. And all of this in a situation where we're also forced to interact with NT's – we're expected to go out to work or school etc. Most autistic people manage it through denial, through pretending they don't have meltdowns, they don't do anything “bad” during meltdowns, or their meltdowns are always justified in a 'moral' way (they can't be morally justified any more than they can be morally condemned: acts in meltdown are not intentional). Very few of us are becoming conscious. These few are discovering the neurological facts, the parallels with NT responses which are not demonised, the fact that we can't control what we do in meltdowns or what brings them on. (The most we can do is try to catch them before they happen, or avoid things we *know* cause meltdowns – and, perhaps, to be very risk-averse about trying anything new – and most of us try to do this, but it is NOT foolproof and has NO parallel in obligations imposed on NT's). The position taken so often is that this absurd situation is tolerable because NT safety/security is paramount. But what use is safety/security without basic human recognition, without human rights, such as the right not to be blamed for something which is not intentional? NT people have adopted a fanatical ideological position that people are always 'responsible', and fail to reality-check this position against scientific evidence or against the effects of their own actions on other psychological types. This is why NT supremacy persists to this day.

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    1. What do you want to happen? You offer lots of problems but no solutions. Should people with autism and people without autism live apart? You will never educate everyone and the mojority of people are way too selfish to consider changing their lives to accommodate others. It's a big planet.

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    2. anonymous said...
      It is a matter of fact that most autistic people grow up traumatised, many autistic people develop anxiety, depression, PTSD-like symptoms, social avoidance, etc., as a direct result of the prejudice against meltdowns and the resultant risk of persecution.


      the thing is anonymous, it's not all about you. there are all kinds of people out there with all kinds of problems and issues - these are your NT. there also little kids. the bottom line is if you're a danger to others then maybe you just shouldn't be out in public.

      having a parent who may have Asperger's, i've done my time on the other side of the traumatized, depressed, anxiety riddled fence. so i get it, in a way. but having been there, i've learned that there is no amount of accommodation that will ever make a difference.

      and really what you're asking for is not accommodation. what you're asking for is total freedom to do whatever you want without having to be accountable for your actions.

      fair or not, no one gets that, anonymous.

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    3. Zoe I imagine life at home was not easy and you have a very unique view and perception of the ASD world..one i would be very interested in hearing..
      I would say i disagree on one thing tho..i feel that the idea that we dont take or let ppl in public if they are a danger..well sadly thats subjective to what draws that line..and in the case of an autie child there is still so much time to let them experience new ways to deal..with an auti adult there are more walls to break down more fears to quell..but the idea of lock them up and throw away the key ..no i can never go for that..just becuase my son doesnt show the "feelings or remorse" that others may feel he should show..when he whispers in my ear..why do ppl get so angry i just had to throw it.the color hurt my head...i tell him now..let everyone around you know baby tell them why some will be ignorant and use against him but some..well some will br curious and a few have joined in and decided they hated their nasty wool sweaters anyway..sounds simple compared to our conversation..but i will say it has to start somewhere...Jenn

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    4. the key is to realize that auspies have tremendous feeling of emaphy and remorse but completely lack the nonverbal tools to convey said feelings. the natural reaction of an auspie is to hide those feelings and shove them deep down inside. when a auspy hurts someone it is because the percieve a great injustice that MUST be dealt with. when a sociopath does it, it is for personal pleasure or gain. think of batman as an auspy and the joker as a sociopath

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    5. Is it anything like G.A.D? Cause I feel like that all the time. Panic attacks are hard on everyone, but I'm sure its harder if you can't express how you feel to anyone. Thank you for saying that it makes me feel closer to my son.

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  7. Another problem here. Most autistic people suffer one or more kinds of pain and harm from certain sensory inputs – noise, bright lights, touch, being grabbed or hugged, being exposed to strong smells, etc (it varies with each person – I have even heard of aversion to the colour yellow). Some can suffer pain and harm from a socially-conditioned trauma-response connected to past experiences of overload. Does this mean an NT person (or for that matter another autistic person) is guilty of violence if they talk at a normal volume, or turn on the lights, or tap someone's arm, or wear perfume? Even if the NT person had no idea an autistic person might be present who had this particular problem? And even (like in the case of drink-driving) if no autistic person is ACTUALLY present and harmed by their actions? If we're saying that all violence to another person is liable whether it's deliberate or not, whether it's understood or not, then NT people are guilty of violence whenever they do any of these things (and I could multiply a thousand examples – including things I do myself). It can't be excused because they didn't mean to hurt anyone, it can't be excused because they don't know about autistic sensory problems.

    Firstly, this would be a horribly cruel way to treat NT people. And secondly, the fact that NT people aren't held to this standard, but autistic people are, is a double standard.

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  8. Sorry, wrong link. Was meant to be:
    http://www.autism-pdd.net/testdump/test17134.htm

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  9. Sociopaths are BAD, very bad, evil, frightening because of the potential damage and the cunning ability they have to completely destroy another human being.

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    1. As a sociopath, I find it fucking hilarious how NTs shit themselves over us, but can never spot us. I took an Abnormal Psych course a few years back with a somewhat "close friend" of mine. During the ASPD lectures, she would regularly turn around to tell me how much these people scared her (as did most of my other classmates). It's a shame to bear witness to such beautiful irony and to not have anyone to share it will.

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    2. @Anon 4:50, would have been better if you posted 30min ago. But I have to agree with your post. Such dangerous people! and they lie alot too!!

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    3. I have a question..as far as sociopath thing goes i do see the similarities in the lack of empathy and such my curiosity is do you feel it can be taught learned..and from a sociopath point of view..do you just not feel things at all or specific things..like if you cat gets run over do you not care or is that sympathy and you have that having felt it yourself. i know my question seems simplistic im just trying to break it down as simple as possible..for example I feel things ALOT but when in front of ppl who are emotionally in pain they see me as strong really im thinking i dont know how to show what they show not that i dont feel it but my way of showing it is not the NT way..they seem to feel i get over things easy the fact is i get back into my groove very quickly and just put to back of my brain..is that sociopathic in nature or just coping..and while im asking does sociopath mean you have to be violent in nature or just that you dont emotionally feel its wrong ..sorry for such simple questions but i have neves seen such an open forum

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    4. it is both true and funny that nt are so afraid of sociopaths thinking that they are evil. they are not evil in nature. thats more of a nurture thing than a nature thing. i am an auspy and have a few sociopathic friends. good friends actually. each one of these friendships started on the wrong foot of course lol. but i have earned thier respect as a "worthy" opponent. i see thier attempts to unnerve me as a challenge just as they have come to respect my strength and displayed power when the "$#^&" hits the fan. that and i think that we auspys make good friend for sociopaths because WE actually DO see them for what they are Immedietly wich accounts for thier initial reaction of hatred. they can tease us but they can not hide who they are from a smart auspy

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  10. I have taught special education for 25 years and have had some experience with violent outburst from autistic children. For example, one boy about the age of 12, grabbed me by my upper arms and began to squeeze. His hands had to be pried off my arms and I was bruised with his hand prints as a result. I was told that he bit off his sister's finger. I have seen an autistic boy with no language skills, jump up and lash out at teachers, punching them in the chest uncontrollably. I had to shove a desk between this student and a teacher to stop her from being assaulted. Not long ago, I was walking down a hallway at school and a young boy who was with a parent swung at me with all his might, slapping me across the the upper arm. It was with brute force. Since I do not usually work with this population, my experiences are limited to the ones mentioned. But I have seen, in classrooms, students throwing themselves like projectiles, hitting anyone or anything in this way. These stories are real and we must find ways to protect and assist parents and teachers who habitually are assaulted by this type of behavior.

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    1. i have to say as a parnet advocate and para in special needs rooms for a few years myself..if a child is repeatedly having these outbursts in that room it is something with the room or staff (not meaning you) it may be as simple as changing the school and teacher not that the teacher did wrong but if the autie child percieves a wrong he will not be convinced that didnt or wont happen again..i work with a 10 yr old boy who is nonverbal..he was in his school for 4 years no violence then one year became incredibly aggressive..after 2 years we got him in another school (still public just down the road) he has never had an outburst again...he cant explain why who where why or how but something was wrong...his teacher was and is and excellent teacher but something snapped between that set up..we now do that in any situation where an FBA is not working and for more than 6 months we have not seen anything positive and only escalation of behavior..it has worked all but 1 time in the 17 times we have done it over the last 7 years..and the case it didnt we ended up sadly finding out the child was being abused at home but had no voice to tell..what he did have was an ipad from our school that he snuck home and recorded 3 nights of his life and the sadness we all felt for not knowing or even thinking about that was overwhelming but he is now safe sound and last i heard doing remarkable but still has outburst..just my two cents..jenn

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  11. I have ASD. I have used violence only on objects.

    Maybe you will believe the cold-mother theory later on, when your sex drive stops competing for your words and your mind does and is.

    I don't think I explained my last paragraph - I was talking about a person hallucinating.

    My words are not very cryptic, if you understand them.

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  12. Autism has indeed a lot of advantages and disadvantages. This includes the dark side. I agree that we need to embrace the dark side of the spectrum including the bad symptoms of autism. Children with autism can live normal only if they receive the right acceptance, knowledge and most especially love from the people that surround them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most medication causes neurodegeneration. Nootropics and wakefulness enhancers, as well as teaching people with autism how to be more independent, giving them alone time once in a while, having friends with similar interests, can help. You could talk to the doctor about modafinil. Modafinil actually strengthens neuron connections, though modafinil is only suitable in the morning due to it's long lasting wakefulness enhancing effects. It's far safer than adhd meds and doesn't cause brain damage.

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  13. Heartbreaking words from that mother.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did your heart actually break ? She seemed like a drama queen to me.

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    2. Yep, it did. I bet you never had kids.

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  14. I'm curious how the Church deems those that are quite ill and those that are possessed. I'm sure mistakes are made.
    How sad for everyone involved.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually, that is a really hard answer to address using the Bible. Some things are not able to be known with our limited, finite brains. I have had the wonderful pleasure of meeting a friend who had 4 NDEs(near death experiences) He is a Christian but unlike any I have known. He uses the F word all the time and is a Christian Goth. He is magnificent. He sees spirits, as well. As you can imagine, many traditional Christians don't want him but he is perfect for me.

      My point in bringing him up is that he told me that there is much that is not known by man as man is not capable of using it right. I think your question would fall in that category.

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    2. I would disagree with your last paragraph; as the
      Catholic Church has been very capable of dealing with
      possession and have been successful at using it in the proper manner. Your friend needs to rethink HIS
      theory.

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  15. The Catholic Church does not follow the Bible. They have their own bible which is NOT the same. I have no interest in debating this point with you as you seem like the type who is crusin for a fight, anyway he he

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ^ No, have no desire to "cruse for a fight," but I agree that I do not care to debate with someone that
      responds with childish replies - like, he he. Pathetic
      ..........

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    2. ^Silly me - you just wanted to win - a character trait of a sociopath.

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    3. SW will have a great laugh that I am a sociopath.

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    4. ^Sorry, if I blew your cover!

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    5. The only cover BA uses, is to cover the DutchOven he uses daily, on himself.

      Delete
    6. ^Who raddled your cage?

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  16. 1st wall of text crits you for 10 000 000

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  17. Some of these parents have to be saints to give love and support to their children with these issues.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I havae a sicko relative by marriage only, tahnk you, who gave her other 2 kids autism diagnosis bec she a munchausen by proxy. The one who has it, she broke all his CD s one day in a fit of rage against him.

    The dad got custody finally.

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  19. KILL
    THE
    FUCKING
    AUTISTS!§! >:@

    GAS THEM
    KILL THEM
    WE NEED ANOTHER
    ACTION T4

    ACTION T4 FOR THE WIN

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Behring Breivik
      will be right on that

      Delete
    2. The thing is anonymous, you can say that and want to do it, where as we can actually say that we will wipe out humanity in return and just do it. I'm sure plenty of my bretheren have thought about how to mass kill a whole lot of people. We are hidden, and there are a lot of people who don't suspect anything... Then again, if you say you love me and notice my existance, I'll gladly work superhard to make evryones life that much better.

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    3. idk i kinda enjoy watching sociopathic attempts at humor. they all ways show thier weakness if you read between the lines. yes i do believe that auspys are needed for the next stage of evolution. but i feel that sociopaths are JUST as neccessary for the next step. there are highly positive attributes to BOTH sides of the coin. sociopaths are the yin to our auspy yang. forever in competition with eachother yet we actually need each other. use your god given auspy insight and you will see this as well

      Delete
  20. I have nipples. Care for a squeeze?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i hear troll nipples are innies

      Delete
    2. The left is inverted, the right sticks out.

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    3. Zoe! You aren't a troll, silly.

      Delete
    4. true that.

      my right then.

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  21. David, how are you?

    ReplyDelete
  22. as someone with mild autism and rage issues, largely related to the emotional disconnect i have with those around me, i can say that there is a dark side to autism. perhaps surprising for most to consider, what i found to be the most liberating was immersing myself in the local goth/industrial culture. it gave me a safe haven and outlet for my rage while providing an intellectually stimulating environment to build from.

    ReplyDelete
  23. My cousin, who is 8 years old was diagnosed with autism. He is violent and feeds off the suffering of others. He has killed my aunts pets. They had 2 beautiful birds that he cut the beaks off of them. He is strong and was kicked out of the public school system for being violent with the other children and the teachers. He has kicked, pulled hair, head bunted and charged at the teachers. He has flipped his desk over and curses and swears at the teachers. He has pulled my hair, pinched me...leaving multiple bruises and head bunted me. My aunts b/f said that he almost stabbed a woman that was visiting them. When he hurts others he laughs. When he gets no response out of you when you show pain...he will repeat the behavior. You tell me that's not a sociopath? Sociopaths feed off of the emotions of others. This child is going to severly hurt someone someday. What hurts the most...is we can't go visit my aunt because we are terrified of my cousin. Everyone is.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. your cousin has been miss diagnosed. he is a sociopath. although i think that sociopaths are actually linked to autism as well. one thing that he deffinitly doesnt have is aspergers or asd. do some actual research if thats not too stressing for your small nt brain. stop miss labeling and using the word autism for every person with a temper ok

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    2. Has anyone tried meds for these kids? I waited for years to get my son on meds cause I didn't want him to be a zombie, and his violence got worse as he got bigger (he's five and almost four feet tall!) When my daughter was born last november I put him on meds for his adhd. He still head butts and pinches me from time to time but no where near as much as before. He also just adores his baby sister and has never tried to hurt her. Just a thought.

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    3. I often wonder why parents are so against at least trying meds. I work with an autistic boy in school and it is really close to impossible at times. He takes great delight in trying to bug me my deliberately being bad in my presence. And is now starting to lash out at other kids. His behavior keeps getting worse and he is getting much sneaker about waiting till there are no other adults around to help me. He's very manipulative and puts on an act of being a sweet boy to adults who don't know him.

      Delete
  24. So did they ever figure out what made the lady's son snap after all those years? Apparently he didn't like being "caged" in the group home; did they figure out what was confining about it or help him get him out?
    Auties are known to be pretty emotionally sensitive, but also fairly logical most of the time. It's hard to think he suddenly turned violent and destructive for his personal amusement.

    My meltdowns are, whenever possible, preceded by some kind of attempt to fix the stressor. I've walked out of the building mid-conversation, I've stood on furniture to unplug the television, I've dropped out of classes...but most of the time I can't do anything about my circumstances. That boiling frustration can be destructive without an outlet, though I do try to keep it within ethical boundaries to the best of my ability. (At least my family always knows what to get me for the holidays because of all the jewelry I break.) I still remember the time when the staff of the university cafeteria were herding us out at closing time in the middle of my meal, with the repeatedrepeatedREPEATED notifications and the fLiCkErInG lIgHtS, and I had to just stand completely still with all my muscles locked for a few moments to keep from doing something impulsive toward the bratty workers.

    I suspect that if people were a little bit more considerate of one another, even those with different input thresholds, destructive meltdowns would be much less of a problem. Of course it would help me a lot personally if I could effectively communicate those thresholds...

    No one seems to mind when neurotypicals scream expletives at things that bother them, or when they use their social skills to manipulate others into removing the stressor, but I guess it's because all the other neurotypicals can understand what's going on. My (neurotypical??) mother's meltdowns still freak me out after all these years because I don't know what's going on. She can still form words (generally profane ones, personal insults, and so forth), and her destructiveness toward property (e.g. taking an item from the next room and throwing it in the trash) demonstrates more forethought than the majority of my meltdowns allow. I might be capable of those during regular anger or fear responses, but not meltdowns. But it's also different from my regular anger and fear responses because later on she'll apologize and express regrets, claiming not to have been in control of herself. I don't even know if all that is normal, but it's alien to me the same way autistic meltdowns are to the idiots who try to stop me from withdrawing/twitching/doing-whatever-nondestructive-meltdown-behavior-is-occurring-at-the-time with cooing and snuggles.

    Sorry to ramble.

    ReplyDelete
  25. My son is autistic amd im gonna tell you all that they do feed off of others pain and torment. It is funny to them to hurt people physically and mentally. He is 16 and has just gotten worse as years have went by....totally in control of how he acts...manipulates and decodes any system you put him in. I have holes in my walls, been stabbed with a pencil threatened even my 4 month old grandaughter to shut her up or he will. We have begged the system to help get him out of our house but do you think we have gotten any help..no! He even was caught with a utility knife in the back of a car getting ready to slash my throat...after i got him to a hopsital he tells me they are not gonna do anything because he will tell them what they wanna hear and they will let him go. Exactly that he manipulated them and they said well he said he didnt mean to he was just pretending and told us to take him home. We are tormented and ourwhole family is leaving. I am ready to walk away myself. He knows now he can do as he pleases and nothin can bedone other than signign out rights over. He knows how the eystem operates and he uses it to his benifit. They are socialpaths because I live with one. He is on every med you cn you can think it doesnt affect him at all. They are dangerous people and with one n your home you cant go anywhere without a fit or getting choked Im sick of it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you are a troll or you are ignorent. you are decribing a phsycopath aka sociopath to its highest degree. i shudder to think of how low your IQ must be.

      Delete
    2. At one time I thought that people with autism were nice people. I believed the new line of thinking that they are just 'different'. But now I finally see that they have NO remorse. I've had my fill now. I will never really trust someone with Aspergers or HFA ever again. I will always be looking for a stab in the back and always assuming that they are lying and sneaking about something. I know now that Autism has a very evil side. All these mothers and people are not lying when they say that they see the evil in their eyes. It's like they are possessed by the devil. So people can keep denying it, but one day they will find out how evil these people are. Just look into their eyes and it's all there for the seeing.

      Delete
    3. **sigh**
      trolls are gonna troll.
      Someone please pay this person some attention so they can feel good about themselves And move on to another thread.

      Delete
  26. Euthanasia is the best solution in all such cases. Next question.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Good thing I only have BPD...

    ReplyDelete
  28. I'm having trouble telling the trolls from people who have been driven insane by horrid situations(or were just that way to begin with). Either way here is my two cents.

    Autism is a word used to describe a set of interrelated behavioral symptoms, and for that matter so is sociopathy. On those grounds I feel it's impossible to argue that all autistic individuals have sociopath tendencies. Sociopathy occurs all over the place and it can hardly be said that violence is foreign to the neuron-typical. I think violence should be treated in much the same way in auties as in the rest of the population. We all have to learn how to live and cope in society, NT, autistic, sociopath, ect.

    On a final note I have a few sociopathic tendencies and a score of 15 on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist according to my family. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Kv2G3s6Cc

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  29. I hate to break the news to you, but sociopaths/psychopaths will always be more despised than any other group because we can't see you coming.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Lol We, the poor sociopaths, are so offended at your remarks. I read one post that said, "Sociopaths are stupid once you figure them out." Ha! It's funny how that same attitude about other things can be interpreted as jealousy when it's about almost anything else, but it's too far fetched to think someone would want to be a sociopath. I honestly don't know why someone would't want to be sociopathic. We don't have to suffer emotional pain that everyone else has to endure. Oh, sure, for every bad thing there is a good thing right? At least, that's what eastern cultures believe, and let's say there is a good side; let's say love exists; is it worth it? Is it worth going stupid for someone uncontrollably and making irrational sacrifices for someone who wouldn't do the same for you? I certainly have no desire for that relationship with people. I feel freed from the problems of normal people.

    However, there should be an understanding that there is a difference between sociopaths and psychopaths: A sociopath has the ability to be good; a psychopath does not. There are the psychopathic idiots who deserve the harsh criticism you give, because they're detrimental to everyone including themselves, and there just isn't any good that comes from them

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have reached a somewhat similar conclusion. Though good friends matter, relationship type love is an illusion. Think of it this way. Our genes only care about passing on genetic material and the inclusive immune fitness of our genes. Lust ensured that the number of babies would outnumber the amount of jaguars eating them in the past. "Love" is merely a state resembling insanity and it's the genes playing their selfish tricks so we form families with strong immune systems. But as thinking human beings, we care far more about intelligence, strength, and other goals than the selfish genes and their "immune system fitness" stuff. The problem with neurotypical people is that they make fun of others to hide their own pain. They're projecting their suffering because, deep down, they wish they were capable of beinf either more analytical of knowledge like aspergers, or be more confident like a sociopath. People fear what they don't understand. They're almost like children. It's also a symptom that neurotypical people never ever use the scientific method to analyze things.

      Delete
  31. Psychopathy and autism are not related:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17018169

    ReplyDelete
  32. I know exactly what some autistics refer to when they say "I don't like being caged". People think that just because someone is on the autism spectrum, that they're somehow supposed to be suffocated, babies, and helped in EVERYTHING! It's not like that! People with autism are supposed to be taught how to be independent, have time for themselves once in a while, play sports, and also when a high functioning autistic says "I want to take the reagents test", you let them take the reagents test. I was pretty lucky to have independence and occasional alone time and also great friends who are also unique. I have high functioning autism. I'm sure that if we allow people on the autism spectrum to follow their goals, and also teach them to be independent and give then the freedom they crave, that we wouldn't have so much "anger". Of course they'll get angry when they're being caged and boxed! Wouldn't you be angry if someone steals your goals, freedom, independence, ect? I'm sensitive emotionally. Autistics may need help once in a while, but they want you to teach them to help themselves EVEN MORE!

    ReplyDelete
  33. Hi, I know this in an old post but I wanted to let you know that reading through the post and comments here has helped me a lot.
    I won't go into details, but after getting into a relationship with an autistic person (we were together before I found out), it has almost been the death of me on many occasions. I'm at constant risk of physical and emotional harm and there's no way I can get this person out of my life for various reasons (family issues, etc).
    I know I'm going to either be killed by them, or die a very sad, lonely old woman.

    ReplyDelete

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