Sunday, June 28, 2009

Death and fear

There was a recent death in my family, a close relative of mine. The family has been convening, making me wonder why there needs to be all of this effort over someone's death. I feel no grief, but then again i never felt emotionally close to this relative. It is making me wonder who I would grieve for, though, and I think there are only about 10 people for whom I would feel genuine loss at their deaths. And even with those people, as I have said and read before, the sadness seems to be more a feeling of personal loss than sadness for the deceased himself. Or is that how everyone feels? Sadness for their lack in your life. Which seems good enough, I guess, because it means that they had a significant role or impact in my life, unlike all these other relatives that I am interacting with now, for whom I feel nothing.

I have also been thinking a little about my own death. All my life I have felt todestrieb/thanatos, the death drive. Whenever I have been faced with death, I simply consider how bad it could be to die. Not bad at all, really. In fact there have always been very appealing things about death -- no more work, no more masks, complete and eternal rest. Plus my own spiritual beliefs acknowledge a life after death, an eternal existence of self, so death holds no fear for me. Maybe that is why I am so fearless in general -- isn't all fear just a derivative of the fear of death?

127 comments:

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  2. I am currently reading "The Tibetan Book of Life and Death". Very insightful thus far, but I cannot even IMAGINE what a sociopath would think of it. Though it does emphasize the importance of living in the present.
    I believe that even empaths experience a death as sad more because of the personal loss, the thought of not having whatever it was that the deceased contributed. Even so, if someone dies that I do not personally know, I do still feel sadness and compassion for their family and those that were close to them. I don't think you ever really feel badly for the person who actually died, unless they suffered greatly.

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  3. correction "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying"

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  4. I have a question. Do sociopaths believe that they have souls? I am assuming yes...but then, are you out of touch with your souls then? Do you ignore them, because I always believe souls to be somehow attatched to conscience? Or are they just different from empath souls?

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    1. There is no such thing as a "soul." I am probably five years late in telling you this; probably your soul has flown before you could read my malicious wisdom.

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  5. Sociopaths are meant to be logical, so I would think so. If souls exist, then what do dementia, mental disorders and drugs do to them? If they change the soul, then the soul is a useless concept because it could just as easily be described as being the brain or parts of the brain, if not, then why do people appear to be so changed from these things? Do they lose their soul - is it trapped inside them? What is the use of them having a soul, anyway? Moreover, evolution really doesn't permit souls, since no mutation of DNA could ever create something that is immaterial. Embryology too, would need a major update before you could incorporate souls. When does a clump of cells get a soul?

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  6. Who means for sociopaths to be logical? That was probably too complicated a question to pose. The existance of a soul cannot be proven in anyone, I just wondered if sociopaths ever feel as though they have one. Or perhaps just what some of those who comment on this site think about the subject...eh

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  7. I am not sure when the clump of cells would be assigned a soul. The sociopath that I endured was born prematurely, so I wonder that he hadn't gotten his just yet. He always said that he did not have a soul. And I never saw any evidence of one.

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  8. Scarlett asked, “Do sociopaths believe that they have souls?”

    In my mind Miss Scarlett, sociopathology and rationality are not one and the same. So to me, the answer to that question has more to do with how rational any particular sociopath happens to be. The more rational he/she is, the less likely they are to believe in concepts like the soul. Why? Because there is as much good evidence for the existence of souls as there is for the Tooth Fairy. Neuroscience has come a long way towards explaining much of the phenomena that has previously been attributed to nebulous ideas like the soul. There is no reason to postulate a “spiritual” entity that is somehow independent of the brain.

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  9. To ask if sociopaths believe in souls is like asking if people believe in God. It's dumb.

    And secondly, this post was simply tedious. You aren't a sociopath if you'd only care if 1 of 10 of your relatives died. That just makes you not to be Italian, and normal. WHo really gives a fuck if their second cousin they met twice at family reunioins dies. No one. Really. No empath would. ANd if they do, they're weak for an empath. They may care about the family or whatever, but not caring about the death of someone you don't know is like not caring about the death of someone you don't know.

    As any sociopath knows, the only death you really care about would be maybe a mother, if you get along as friends, a friend, or a love. Maybe influential people too. Asking if you're a sociopath because you went to a funeral out of politeness is the same as saying "I'd love to be a sociopath. Can I make this unemotional moment mean that I am?"

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    1. lmao fucking epic. "but not caring about the death of someone you don't know is like not caring about the death of someone you don't know"

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  10. Rationality and emotions: It takes a certain amount of fear (of death, harm, powerlessness, rejection...) to be able to do things as competently as one is able. Too much fear can cause neuroticism that paralyzes, and too little can cause sociopathy that destroys. In the first extreme one is obviously too afraid to accomplish anything, in the other extreme one has to resort to bullshit to cover up all the ongoing messes.

    As for sociopathy and spirituality: Sociopaths are the ultimate materialists. And until proven otherwise, I also think anti-spiritual, and will have the most amount of trouble finding anything spiritual (if such things exist).

    And just as a two dimensional being could never prove or disprove the existence of three dimensional realms, agnosticism is the most “rational” response to the spirituality question, at least for time/space perceptually constrained creatures such as ourselves.

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  11. jasnowflake,
    It really isn't dumb to wonder how a certain group of individuals views a subject. It's just curiosity, perhaps you should relax instead of reacting negatively so that you can fit in with all of the other sociopaths.

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  12. Nimbus said, “And just as a two dimensional being could never prove or disprove the existence of three dimensional realms, agnosticism is the most “rational” response to the spirituality question, at least for time/space perceptually constrained creatures such as ourselves”

    Is the most “rational” response to the question of whether Santa Claus physically exists or not I don’t know? If it is, why? If it isn’t, why not?

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  13. Scarlett said, “It really isn't dumb to wonder how a certain group of individuals views a subject.”

    Miss Scarlett, I think jasnowflake’s point was that if it doesn’t make sense to ask how black people feel about god since black people are not a monolithic group who all think and feel the same way about everything, then it doesn’t make sense to ask whether all sociopaths believe or disbelieve in souls for the same reason. All people who fit the sociopath label are not “created equal”, so to speak. There must be as broad a range of opinions about religious matters in the sociopath subgroup as there are in the wider population. This blog is a perfect example. For instance, M.E. seems to hold supernatural beliefs while I do not. M.E. has not shared his reasons for believing as he does. I, on the other hand, couldn’t find any rational reasons to believe in any of it, so I dropped it.

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  14. I understand that you don't all see it the same way. I am sorry, sociopaths are really not the same thing as an actual ethnic group. They are people without empathy. They do see MANY things the same way. Spirituality seems connected to empathy in my view, so to me, it made sense to ask. So really jasnowflake's point wasn't good.

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  16. Miss Scarlett:

    Perhaps, but many doesn’t equal every. And obviously it made sense for you to ask because you wouldn’t have done it otherwise. But the point still stands. No group is monolithic in all its views, especially when it comes to religion. If anything, religion may very well be the one subject where tiny differences are more likely to abound, especially considering that it’s not tethered to anything real. There’s no way to settle truth claims about which religious belief is correct or not, hence the abundance of differing views on the same subjects.

    Can a sociopath be religious? Well M.E. says he’s a sociopath and he also has supernatural religious beliefs. I’m taking his word for it because it costs me nothing to do so. So the answer is yes. But that doesn’t say anything about any other sociopath. But it does seem to me that religion is a perfect place for sociopaths. They can behave in any way they like and do anything to anyone they like, so long as they say the babble (aka bible) told them to. Hell, if you think about it, god himself is quite sociopathic.

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  17. Peter Pan said, “I'm not a sociopath, and I can only think of one person whose death would affect me: my grandfather.”

    I suspect this is true of sociopaths and normiopaths alike. Most of us honestly don’t care one way or the other about other people’s passing unless that person is close to us in some way. It’s the normiopaths who are loathe to admit that though.

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  19. Yup. Oh alright, I’m sure someone who’s empath dial is turned higher than mine can more easily imagine how they’d feel if they were in X’s shoes, so there are probably some real feelings there when they hear about other people’s losses. But the actions of most normiopaths reveal that they don’t care as much as they tell themselves and others they do.

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  20. Those are some very nice and tolerant-like thoughts and all... However,if all were honest, I doubt that the answers would vary much at all. But eh, continuing this will only result in my feeling as though I have beaten my head against a wall, done.

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  21. Death is eniviatable why fear it...its going to happen whether we like it or not. When your time is done..it's done. Live in the moment.

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  23. No you don't have to be empathetic to believe in stupid shit. That I will agree with. You do, however, need to be empathetic to provide meaningful conversation regarding spirituality and the existance or lack of souls.
    I expected my question to be answered with more questions and a bunch of very intellectual sounding meaningless crap. I have not been disappointed.
    On the whole, I agree with Tink.

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  24. scarlett said...

    "Those are some very nice and tolerant-like thoughts and all..."

    LOL. Why thank you Miss Scarlett. My answers sound tolerant because I see no reason for them not to be logical and accurate. At this particular moment, I’m not playing any games and I have no real agenda other than to kill time. I’m at work. I don’t believe in working while at work. It’s against my religion.

    “But eh, continuing this will only result in my feeling as though I have beaten my head against a wall…”

    That’s where all discussions of religion end up. No one can be right because the only way to determine that would be by objective standards and when it comes to religion there are none. There is no ‘there’ there. (Which is why so many so called spiritual philosophies decide their doctrinal disputes by the sword rather than by reason.) How do we know if the your version of the soul is the accurate one as opposed to the Buddhist version or the Hindu version or the Pagan version or M.E.’s version or the Christian version? We can’t because there is no good evidence for any of them. All we have is faith, which for all practical purposes amounts to little more than “I’m right about the soul because I said so.” Which is fine, but it isn’t rational and not very convincing for anyone else.

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  25. scarlett said...

    “You do, however, need to be empathetic to provide meaningful conversation regarding spirituality and the existance or lack of souls.”

    How is one supposed to speak meaningfully on something whose existence (and thus meaning) is disputed to begin with?

    "I expected my question to be answered with more questions and a bunch of very intellectual sounding meaningless crap. I have not been disappointed."

    Then why did you ask in the first place if you did not actually expect for real people to give you their real answers? To prove your own moral superiority perhaps? Well you said you weren’t disappointed so I suppose you got what you really came for.

    “done”

    Agreed.

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  26. Tinkerbelle said...

    "Death is eniviatable why fear it...its going to happen whether we like it or not. When your time is done..it's done. Live in the moment."

    Well said Tink. Who knew such sage wisdom could live along side craziness?!? lol

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  28. If what I am saying is coming across as negative, I am sorry. I don't mean for it to. I am just being honest, and I am open to anyone setting me right. I just feel that I asked a question and everyone tap danced around answering it, but really didn't, and I expected that but wondered if I might be surprised. I don't have negative or judgemental feelings for anyone here, not at all. I don't even feel those things towards the dreaded ex at this point. I was simply trying to defend myself for having asked my question.

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  29. Emotional insight...
    I was raised in a very strict, very religious home, and I have strayed from that life considerably. My parents basically disowned me at one point because of my "worldly" ways. I don't adhere to any organized religion. But I don't really believe that I am nothing but flesh and bones either. I like to learn about spiritual things, am particularly interested in meditation and yoga right now. I like the thought that everyone has to die sometime, it is nothing to fear, death is not unique. Everything is always changing, it is important to accept that and not get too attached. I also think that love is the most important part of the human experience.

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  30. Scarlett, although conversations w socios can be insightful, they are never meaningful. Might as well ask a brick wall then try to get answers from these guys who take offense to any and everything!

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  31. Lol Daniel...well thats because id describe myself as an onion...i have many layers...(like most people i guess)...i can do sane as well as i can do crazy believe it or....you would be so surprised lmao...in certain area's of my life im seen as reliable, repectable, hard working, highly articulate and intelligent...its hilairious when i stop to think about.... i just prefer doing the village idiot best. (if thats how its spelt?) ;)

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  32. p.s....plus im trying to avoid the home for lunatics...i hear the food is not so good there. lol

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  33. 'Belle:

    Who wants to be totally sane when you can be both sane and insane whenever the moods strikes? That's what makes you such an interesting addition to this 'pathic blog!

    Who is Tink really? Who are any of us really? (Ok, skip that last question. I think I've done as much as 'serious' as I'm gonna do this afternoon.)

    PS: The food here aint so bad once you get past the smell.

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  34. Well Daniel, that question isn't too difficult to answer ...i guess tink is whoever she needs to be to get through her life....sort of like a closet full of clothes...depending what mood i wake up in...determines which outfit i wear...

    Just because i feel crazy in my head and pop pills... doesn't mean i run through the streets declaring im a nutter, i like to think im a little bit smarter than that...just a teensy winsy bit anyway!...lmao...

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  36. You are all schizoid NOT sociopaths. It is not related to schizophrenia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder#Narcissism

    1. neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
    2. almost always chooses solitary activities
    3. has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
    4. takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
    5. lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
    6. appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
    7. shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity


    Hey I know you want to be sociopaths, especially the author of this blog. It's just not the case. You would never be here as sociopath, or not for very long anyways. The blogger is a typical schizoid. His words give him away. It has to be difficult for him, but self reflection is typical schizoid behvoir. Sociopath/APD sufferes DO NOT practic introspection.

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  38. Absolutly Peter! If I could I would give you a basket full! Many schizoid people think they are socipaths because it sounds very similar and it fits into them wanting to protect themselves from the outside world. The key difference is that sociopaths don't feel threataned by the outside world. They don't care at all. No need to figure themselves out, they already think they are best and everyone else is screwed up! Plus they act out way more and don't consider the consquences and don't care even when the consquences come falling down on them. I can hardly make a diagnoses for all, but from what I've read most on here have SPD.

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  39. i never said i was a sociopath truth monger, hey ...infact i know im not lmao...

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  40. Sorry Tinkerbelle! I just meant the poeple that are posting here as sociopaths. You sound bi-polar. I don't mean that offensivly! Just oberserving.

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  41. im bipolar....now that reeeally is a total head fuck!!! come to think of it is anybody else on here?

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  42. WOW truth monger....you really are the truth monger!!! hey im impressed lol :) (no offense taken, it often gets mistaked for shizophrenia)

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  43. Truth-Monger said, “You are all schizoid NOT sociopaths.”

    You could be right. I also know that outside of a professional diagnostic setting it doesn’t matter. I use what I use when I use it and drop everything else. So diagnose away partner! I don’t get into the “I am a sociopath so there!” arguments since I have nothing to prove. Labels like sociopath and schizoid are useful but ultimately irrelevant. Unless of course you find yourself in a psychiatrist’s office or a mental hospital or a ward of the state. That’s a horse of another color altogether. What color that is remains to be seen.

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  46. Peter Pan said, “It's a very appealing option, because it fits many of my symptoms and carries with it a sense of power and invulnerability.”

    Now see, I had the opposite reaction. I didn’t associate power and invulnerability with the label sociopath. I zeroed in on the lack of guilt when I did certain things and the feeling of aliveness I experienced when I successfully pulled off past manipulations. And yes, there is the nagging sense that most people are idiots. lol That’s what lead me to appropriate the label. I do believe I have sociopathic tendencies. But does that mean a professional would diagnose me as a full blown sociopath? Maybe, maybe not. I’m good to go on that. Like I’ve commented before, I find the ‘sociopathic tendency’ label useful, but only in a limited way. Beyond that, it’s not relevant for me one way or the other.

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  47. I’d say most people at these kinds of sites are schizoid or some variation of such. Most hardcore sociopaths avoid introspection like the plague, preferring instead to be in either predator, predation learning, or some impulsive/irresponsible mode while online.

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    Daniel Birdick said:
    Is the most “rational” response to the question of whether Santa Claus physically exists or not I don’t know? If it is, why? If it isn’t, why not?

    Which Santa Claus? The movie, the town, the people with the name, the Edmund Gwenn character, the Tim Allen Character, the Rankin-Bass character, the one who plays him for the family at Christmas, or the one you may have believed in at age 4?

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  49. Nimbus asked, “Which Santa Claus?”

    Precisely. The same thing can be said about god. Which version is it “rational” to be steadfastly agnostic about? The Hindu versions? Allah? Yahweh? The trinity? Tillich’s ground of being? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Elvis?

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  50. Daniel Birdick,
    You’re comparing red lines to oranges.

    The two dimensional line living on the plane world of all red lines could safely assume there are no orange lines in its world. If it came across an orange point, there is no way it could disprove that the orange point is not actually part of an orange line on an orange line plane world intersecting its own red plane world, let alone a curve in a larger 3D world of which it is a part.

    Our “Santa Claus” equates to a fabrication from our own ‘red line world’, and is NOT a supposition of a different, or higher dimensional existence, as some may hope/perceive a spiritual supreme being to be. You compare red lines to oranges.

    As an added bonus along 'spiritual' lines: What did Einstein see after completing his childhood thought experiment regarding what a light beam might look like while traveling at it’s exact speed?

    And finally:
    Would any of you sociopaths/schizoids/nutjobs be willing to submit to a battery of psychological testing? Alright. How about having the balls to post your MBTI test results?

    http://similarminds.com/personality_tests.html

    (Jung Tests I-E S-N F-T J-P**)

    I'm usually an INTJ, sometimes INXJ.

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  51. Peter Pan asked, “Daniel, are your manipulations more deliberate, or are they also compulsory?”

    They were never compulsory. They were always deliberate. They had to be. Well, at least they had to be in my case. I have no interest in getting caught, only in achieving whatever my objective happened to be at the time, which in my mind meant that I had to be very careful. You can’t be careful and sloppy (non-deliberate) at the same time.

    “If you refrain from manipulating others, does it drive you batty?”

    Nope. So long as I have nothing to gain from doing so, who cares?

    “Can you function without a definite motive driving your social interactions? Have you tried?”

    Yes. I found that one way mirror metaphor that M.E. previously used to be apt. I let people see what they want to see while I keep my real thoughts and feelings to myself. I find that I do that at least 60 to 70% of the time. But there are times and there are a few people that I enjoy. I rarely if ever let my guard down and I keep a great deal to myself. My family and friends don’t know the difference though. I think that what I’ve just said is probably true of everyone, not just schizoids, sociopaths and sociopath wannabes.

    “Just how far do you go?”

    I haven’t killed anyone. The only time I’ve done anything that might have resulted in someone being seriously hurt and/or killed didn’t and now I’m past the statute of limitation on that one, which is the only reason I bring it up now. In the past few weeks, as I mentioned to M.E. via email the other day, I’m thinking of getting my manager fired just for shits and giggles and because I find her thoroughly annoying. I came up with a plan but I haven’t acted on it yet. If I do, I’ll be extremely careful. These things have to be done just right. She’s been staying out of my hair in recent days though, so I haven’t moved beyond the planning stages. Maybe she saw my thoughts written all over my face and decided to stay away for a while. LOL.

    Peter, what you describe about yourself is odd to me. I freely admit to not understanding it. Why put all of the effort into manipulating people if you take no pleasure from it or gain no advantage? Surely, you gain something or else you wouldn’t bother going through the trouble. And if you everything you say has to have a purpose, why did you say all of the above here?

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  52. ok i took that jung personality test im not sure if that the one you meant nimbus?, i got E S T P...means shit to me other than a load of capital letters lol, there was no explaination just percentages...i bet it ment i was neurotic and heading for the lunatic asylum...maybe i should chase up the meaning..i'l have a look at yours whilst im there nimbus.

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  53. Nimbus, I freely acknowledge that I know nothing about physics, so your example was difficult for me to visualize for one and two, I have no idea what Einstein saw. Enlighten me.

    I did not make my real point clear in my previous comments, so here it is: people feel completely free to not be agnostic about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, fairies and anal probe loving aliens, but when it comes to god, we must remain agnostic; we must say we just don’t know. Why? And before you suggest that the examples I mentioned aren't the same thing as god, I'll save you trouble and admit that this is true. But they are magical beings that transcend yet interact with reality as we know it, which means they should leave some kind of evidence behind of their activity, hence there'd be reason to believe that they are real.

    Explain why it’s rational to dismiss the existence of Zeus or Odin or Vishnu while maintaining hope that some version of Yahweh/Allah/Christ is real.

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  56. Peter Pan...to put it a nutshell...all you need is a good wife!! lmao...one that will cook you nice meals...and suck your dick. And thats my useless advice for you. :)

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  58. “Nothing here has any consequence... What you think and do is of no consequence in my life.”

    Nothing anywhere, done by anyone, has any ultimate consequence. And that is the beauty of it.

    Like I said, the no-pleasure thing is hard for me to understand. But that isn’t an attack or even a value judgment. I’m merely stating my own reaction to what you’ve written. When I did “things” I felt an intense kind of aliveness. I loved feeling like I’d shaped the world around me, with or without other people’s permission. It was always fantastic. But if I felt what you felt I’d have no problem stopping because I wouldn’t want to feel all those negative emotions. You could consider seeking professional help if you honestly want to stop. I’m partial to cognitive therapy myself, at least in theory anyway. Or you could also give Byron Katie’s “The Work” a try.

    Can you tell me Peter, what your guilt feels like? What kind of thoughts do you think when you experience guilt? How do those feelings make themselves known to you physiologically? How do you know it's guilt you're feeling? I’m genuinely curious.

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  59. Tinkerbelle said, “Peter Pan...to put it a nutshell...all you need is a good wife!! lmao...one that will cook you nice meals...and suck your dick. And thats my useless advice for you. :)”

    Advice like that is why you’re awesome Tink! Almost every emotional problem a man faces can be solved by getting very regular blow jobs! I'm not kidding either. If only doctors could/would prescribe them... lol

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  62. I took the Jung test thingy and also got the INTJ. Anyway, I have to say that I agree with Daniel Birdick's post about empaths being mainly upset about death only if it relates to a person that was important in their life and will no longer be there. I think empathy is just as selfish, because empaths only really understand other people's feelings because they place themselves in that person's position. They get upset about the death of other's because (1) it reminds them that they will die, or (2) they will miss that person's contributions in their life.

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  63. What you said about guilt is so intriguing to me. That’s why I asked. As introspective as I am, it never occurred to me till very recently that I have no idea what people are talking about when they speak of feeling guilty. When I realized this, I went around asking my friends what they felt when they experienced guilt and they described various thoughts and sensations, all of which were alien to me. So when you mentioned guilt I jumped at the chance to ask because I want to know. And it’s the same. You’re describing an emotional experience that I know little to nothing about. Whenever I’ve done one of my little “projects” or pulled any stunt, or hell, just did what I wanted to do knowing full well someone else would take that as an opportunity to feel pain, I never felt what you and others describe as guilt. I honestly don’t know what it’s like to feel what you and others feel about breaking rules. I didn’t know that I didn’t know until a few months ago. Astonishing. Do you think you could turn these guilty feelings off, and would you if you could?

    That’s also why I literally found what you said about doing what others might label as “sociopathic things” to be so perplexing! How could you do those things and yet feel bad about them later? I was genuinely flummoxed. Still am actually.

    Thanks man. I truly do appreciate you telling me about your guilt. It’s like exploring a whole new world for me. It’s utterly fascinating.

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  65. So Peter, what do you want in your life now? If you could turn off those guilty feelings (or at least turn them down) when you did something manipulative, would you? If you could take what you want and play whatever game you wanted to play, with your desire as the only justification for doing so, would you?

    Side question: LOOD was only 13? Seriously?

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  66. By the way ({o}), I’ve taken Myers-Briggs tests before. My results are INTX. I vacillate between INTJ and INTP depending on which particular test I take. I’m not sure what the quality of the controlled studies which I assume back this typology up is, so I take it with a grain of salt.

    And back to your point, in a very real sense I almost think everyone is narcissistic/sociopathic to the degree that we’re all selfish and willing to do whatever we have to to get what we want. And that’s why normiopaths appear as hypocritical as they do. They’re just in severe denial, a magical place where they spend most of their days trying desperately not to notice the self deception by endlessly justifying their actions to themselves.

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  68. I think everyone here should read this:

    http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/55051

    I think it might be enlightening in light of these discussions! Just remember don't act evil because you think you are evil! Don't feel guilt either, just change! Seek help if you feel you need it. Friends, family and certified health care professionals are the way to go. Build bonds with others, even if you have to force yourself. The more you cut yourself off the more you will live in your head.

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  69. "You're just jealous, because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask!"

    Ho-hum, I may be a bum. Dancing in the street, to butchers cutting meat. Am I a man or monster? Dancing in the street, blood at my feet.

    'Tis true, Peter, time does fly. And so do you, I see."

    Peter why so conflicted? Guilt sounds like such a burden. You know I don't believe you for a minute. You may believe your lies but I saw how you handled LOOD, butcher in the street. No mercy there.

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  71. So let's dance! [turns on Journey's "Any Way You Want It," high volume]

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  73. Flattery will get you everywhere.

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  75. I am the monkey, I can go here and here.

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  77. Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us and Snakes in Suits... everything else is crap. I could recommend some books if you want to manipulate people. I wouldn't want to make you feel guilty though.

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  79. Relating to people is more of being comfortable with yourself then others. I hope these help though:

    Women:
    -The Game by Neil Strauss
    -The Mystery Method: The Foolproof Way to Get Any Woman You Want Into Bed
    by Mystery Mystery

    Power:
    -48 Laws Of Power by Robert Greene
    -Art Of Seduction by Robert Greene
    -The Art of War by Sun Tzu

    Any books on NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming) by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. Mirroring and anchoring techniques being the most important.

    Anything by Niccolo Machiavelli:
    http://www.readprint.com/author-60/Niccolo-Machiavelli-books

    If you are looking to become more centered so people will trust you more:

    Tao Te Ching by Lao-tzu
    http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

    Any books by Wei Wu Wei.

    These are good starts. If you want anything on a more specific subject let me know.

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  81. Don't be what others want you to be. They don't know what they want and you don't know what they want either. Trying to please people is like trying to punch through rock. Futile and it hurts. Find happiness through yourself.

    Guilt is not something I understand other then you feel pain. I have no clue why you would care, but you do. So I have no good advice other then what I have written. Good luck and don't worry shit has a way of working itself out.

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  82. I should mention that meditation is the best gift for your mind. It makes you calm and people more receptive to you. Join a meditation or yoga group. You meet people and get centered. It seems stupid to most people, but it fucking works!

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  83. ”Explain why it’s rational to dismiss the existence of Zeus or Odin or Vishnu while maintaining hope that some version of Yahweh/Allah/Christ is real.”

    I didn’t realize I’d implied that. A formless god does fit with my suggested Einstinian-extrapolated everywhere-all-the-time spirit form better than some grinning dude with four arms. Christopher Langan claims that atheism and agnosticism are both irrational responses to the spirituality question. So what the hell do we know?

    -----------------

    About temperament, I appreciate the responses. The reason why I asked about MBTI is I’m trying to get a handle on the schizoid-machiavellian continuum. (I never believed anybody is one thing or another but unique quantities of combinations.)

    I work in a business full of INTJs and INTPs, types that, as you probably know, are usually good at technical knowledge and problem solving, since they naturally enjoy that stuff. At one place I worked, we hired a consultant to get us up to speed quickly on a complex new program. He was younger than any of us and had no post HS education at all. But he had the gift of charming gab, a commanding presence (compared to us geeks) and was politically devious as hell. Long story short, it turned out his drive for control over that little company was insane. Over three short years he succeeded in ruining not just a lot of careers, but was instrumental in driving that place into the ground. The part I found craziest, was that none of the others appeared to lift a finger to stop the guy and preserve their meal ticket. I was the only one. I kick myself to this day for having pulled my punches - either way, he’d have still been my enemy. But I digress. My point is that the others, normally astute free thinkers, were suckered by a nutjob. Doesn’t everybody know that hard core sociopaths are notorious for ruining their own lives, and anybody else in the way, due to their inability to discipline control freak tendancies?

    Maybe, if I could go back with what I know now, I could have better persuaded the others: “X is like a shoplifter – he knows he’s gonna screw himself someday but he loves the rush and can’t help himself.” “X is the Winona Ryder of office psychos”... etc.

    But is it also possible, that the others had just a bit of that exact same need, or dysfunction, which caused their own ruin? I don’t think it was all cowardice. The rush from the excitement of chaos may have overcome the rationality of income, reputation and career. Or, is there some kind of pecking order with sociopathy where degree and skill are considerations? BTW, that psycho was a strong EXTP if I’ve ever seen one - ‘cept the X – his bullshitting and verbal skills made that one hard to tell.

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  84. When i looked up the portrait of an E S T P (i think i was)...i was wondering when someone would post something negative about it, lol.

    Now now people..i can't be the only one on here with that personality type??

    Hi nimbus...just a quick question for you...do you find that you don't particularly like that personality type or get along well with that type? I got that distinct impression in you last post thats all.

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  85. Peter Pan said, “No, I wouldn't. That's not the kind of person I'd like to be. My ideal life is peace. Absolute peace.”

    Ok then, do all that you need to do to play that person. Think as that person would think and act as that person would act. Use every technique you can get your hands on to make the portrayal real. Go to war with yourself. Fight the thoughts, emotions and instincts that are opposite of the peaceful person you say you wish to be. Consider even joining a religion like Buddhism to help you. Communal reinforcement can be invaluable in efforts like this. And for ‘Pete’s’ sake, use those guilty feelings to your advantage! Avoid doing those things that automatically produce painful emotions within. And who knows? In time the portrayal might become habit. I’m advocating the ‘fake it till you make it’ approach. It might work.

    Or not.

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  87. Nimbus said, “I never believed anybody is one thing or another but unique quantities of combinations.”

    That’s the approach I take as well. It doesn’t make sense to me to posit that character traits are divided by big, bold, bright and uncrossable lines. (Uncrossable is too a word!) I think the systems that comprise the human mind are too intertwined for that.

    Interesting sociopath horror story by the way. It doesn’t sound like you took the right “moral” from it, however. For instance, you said…

    “Maybe, if I could go back with what I know now, I could have better persuaded the others…”

    You might have been right about their latent emotional need for excitement via chaos. If that’s the case, then reasonable argumentation would never have worked. Even the most rational and logical of people become un-persuadable once their more primitive emotions kick into high gear. Besides, I learned the hard way that no one likes the guy who tells them the truths they don’t want to hear.

    Instead of reasoning with your bewitched co-workers, you might have instead determined what it was that you wanted and why, assessed the political situation, took the pulse of the emotions surrounding and creating the unwanted circumstance, planned carefully, then took action to remove Mr. X from the equation.

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  90. Peter Pan said, “I think you folks have the wrong idea about me.”

    I have the wrong idea about everybody! LOL.

    “You wouldn't say he's trying to ‘fake it til he makes it’… Having an addictive personality doesn't mean that who you are, as a human being,”

    Actually I would. I’d say that the addict is playing the role of addict, (with a lot of help from his biology of course). I’d even argue that one way to look at recovery is that of a person who’s become habituated into playing the role of addict now having to play the role of the sober. Physiological habits like that are painful to break. So are the habitual thoughts that accompany addiction, hence the 'fake it till you make it' advice. When you're transitioning from addiction to sobriety, I imagine it might be helpful to think of yourself as sober, which wouldn't entirely be true in the midst of recovery. As far as I’m concerned, labels like addict, sober dude, sociopath and schizoid are all kinds of roles that we play depending on our programming and/or biological makeup. They are not the sum total of who and what we are.

    I don’t recall actually bestowing the label of sociopath on you, btw. That was you. You read far more into my responses than was there, which says more about you than me, Thunderball/Trickster Monger or anyone else.

    Anyway, good luck to you man!

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  91. Im really glad that nimbus asked posters to take the jung personality test, id never heard of it before...since then iv been looking more into it regarding relationship compatability, and i've found out there are forums on the net so that different personality traits can interact on the basis on their individual test result....i think nimbus might have just helped me out there. Thanks :)

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  92. Tink said, “i think nimbus might have just helped me out there. Thanks :)”

    You were helped out via a blog for sociopaths? The irony!

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  93. hey Daniel, it is kind of ironic isn't it! lol...i guess labels such as "sociopath..nutcase...schizo or just plain weirdo" don't tend to put me off interacting. Its like food i suppose...as my mother always used to say "don't knock it until you have tried it" :)

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  95. Peter Pan said, "I wonder if she's ever tried eating glass."

    I have. It, like everything else, tastes like chicken. Only way crunchier.

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  97. hi peter..i've been following your blog, i'd like to keep in touch with you via there...but your blog won't let me comment for some reason? :)

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  99. Peter I just tried.. no go. When you submit nothing happens.

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  100. Tink said:
    When i looked up the portrait of an E S T P (i think i was)...i was wondering when someone would post something negative about it, lol.

    I posted that the nutjob was an EXTP. Animal House’s Otter was a classic ESTP. Who didn’t like that character? When drunk an ESTP might puke behind your curtains on the sly or grab your wife’s ass. You’re talking to somebody who, in his younger years, was entrusted with the care and safety of an uncles late model car and some younger cousins - but came back with vomit stench in car and on youngest cousin, torn clothes on the other cousins, and a grinding noise from the cars rear end. I think it’s only the extreme ESTPs that are potential natural born killers or con-men who aren’t self-checked by high risk consequences. My theory is that schizoids and machavellians usually won’t destroy themselves unless ‘influenced’ by one of these types to do so.

    ------------------

    Daniel Birdick said,
    Instead of reasoning with your bewitched co-workers, you might have instead determined what it was that you wanted and why, assessed the political situation, took the pulse of the emotions surrounding and creating the unwanted circumstance, planned carefully, then took action to remove Mr. X from the equation.

    You’re right there. One option (in hindsight) might have been planning then forcing a public mental and then physical confrontation? X was a big boy, taller than the rest of us with a deep ‘authoritative’ voice, and claimed to be an ex-marine and genius. I’ve since learned that hard core sociopaths may be gifted social perceivers and manipulators, but beyond that, it’s pretty much bullshit. (I think schizoids and machiavellians can be good at other things) X was in reality, a coast guard washout with a lot of vices like chain smoking, booze, and poor eating habits. A good public mental beatdown followed by ridicule when he didn’t call me outside might have had some impact.

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  101. What do you know... I'm a ISTP.

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  104. Wow, that test actually described me pretty good. Lazy and intellectual... sweet.

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  105. Nimbus..i have never/and would never puke behind someones curtains despite my personality result!! its just quicker to do that kind of shit down the toilet...with the quick flush and all that, no mess. Lmao...i hope you weren't making a sweeping generalisation?..i sense a lot of hostility brewing toward the E X P T/ E S P T personality trait....a hell of a lot actually. lol.

    "i think its only the extreme E S P T's that are natural born killers"....

    Wow!...my personality profile for the E S P T ...never mentioned anything untoward like that....then again iv never so much as read one book on sociopathy.

    "A good public mental beatdown followed by ridicule when he didn't call me outside might have had some impact"

    Really don't like those... E X P T/ E S P T's....i shall be awaiting my online slaughtering!! lol... is there no room for a E S P T on here guys? oh and i thought we were getting on so well. Oh well :)

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  106. Tink I'd like you even if you killed people on the side. Maybe I'd like you more?

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  107. aw thanks Thunderball..at least i have one friend on here lol...im sort of bracing myself for a meat feast...me being the main course...eat me one person at a time please people ;)

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  109. Peter...i could abstain from an awful lot of things...but never ever would i nor could i abstain from my vibrater, they really are a womans best friend..(or at least they ought to be) lol.

    Im awaiting the fallout...it seems i may be the only "ESPT" personality trait on here...safety in numbers and all that...lmao...maybe i should retreat to a real ESPT friendly forum where we can all exchange methods of torture and sound advice on fool proof "do it yourself" back yard cremation kits. Lmao

    I feel so sad...im not wanted.. boo hoo :(

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  110. Second Round:

    Jung Explorer Test

    Actualized type: ESTP
    (who you are)Extroverted (E) 57.14% Introverted (I) 42.86%
    Sensing (S) 51.28% Intuitive (N) 48.72%
    Thinking (T) 87.1% Feeling (F) 12.9%
    Perceiving (P) 52.78% Judging (J) 47.22%

    ESTP - "Promotor". Action! When present, things begin to happen. Fiercely competitive. Entrepreneur. Often uses shock effect to get attention. Negotiator par excellence. 4.3% of total population.




    Preferred type: ESTP
    (who you prefer to be)Extroverted (E) 52.78% Introverted (I) 47.22%
    Sensing (S) 53.19% Intuitive (N) 46.81%
    Thinking (T) 83.87% Feeling (F) 16.13%
    Perceiving (P) 52.78% Judging (J) 47.22%

    ESTP - "Promotor". Action! When present, things begin to happen. Fiercely competitive. Entrepreneur. Often uses shock effect to get attention. Negotiator par excellence. 4.3% of total population.




    Attraction type: ESTJ
    (who you are attracted to)Extroverted (E) 60% Introverted (I) 40%
    Sensing (S) 52.27% Intuitive (N) 47.73%
    Thinking (T) 56.1% Feeling (F) 43.9%
    Judging (J) 51.43% Perceiving (P) 48.57%

    ESTJ - "Administrator". Much in touch with the external environment. Very responsible. Pillar of strength. 8.7% of total population.

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  111. I was more honest on my second test... still a mix of both I think.

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  112. well thats two of us then Thunderball...anymore ESPT's care to come creeping out of the wood work lmao...:)

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  114. MBTI only gives a starting point. It lacks as a science. In reality, everybody falls along a continuum on each of the four scales. And there isn’t enough info about unhealthy or damaged “types” and what works best about changing stuff. And there’s plasticity, where people change over time, which doesn't get addressed. And then there’s the ESPN type, who only watches sports.

    *crickets*

    Okay. There’s a sorta ying and yang about every scale. E’s feel less anxiety than I’s, but I’s are more cautious than E’s. An E is more likely to just jump into a fight, but an I is more likely to be conditioned and prepared in case they ever were forced into one. At least I’d think so.

    I’m interested in the schizoid - machiavelli. Some say they’re more dangerous than the in your face sadistic bully because they work everything out behind the scenes. You never know what the rules are. I’ve seen wannabes and henchmen but they usually seem to need a strong puppetmaster like an ESTX to become ‘activated’. Wannabes are usually scumbags (alcoholics, bottom feeders, latent homos...) who like placing their mental turmoils/attentions on somebody else. The schizoid – machiavelli, if smart and experienced, seems to operate more autonomously. I never knew they were indiscriminately destructive for their own amusement, though. Personally, I’m usually only destructive in extreme anger or planned revenge. I care deeply about the amount of damage I can do and feel guilt until I’ve successfully accomplished my mission. Maybe that’s a form of sociopathy, I dunno. I’m learning it might be healthier to stay plugged into the game (machiavelli), so to speak, instead of opting out and not caring (schizoid), then getting screwed, and getting stuck into a sociopathic retribution thing.

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  115. nimbus said..."I’m learning it might be healthier to stay plugged into the game (machiavelli), so to speak, instead of opting out and not caring (schizoid), then getting screwed, and getting stuck into a sociopathic retribution thing."

    Always better to stay in the game. I've learned that time and time again. Perseverance wins. Soon as you back down it can be viewed as a sign of weakness. If you grab a dog by its ears, best to not let go, because you will get bitten. Not that a strategic exit doesn't have its benefit, but even then you need to have your guard always up. Mind you I'm more reactive, so I guess my guard is always up. I've never met a schizoid machiavelli type, or at least I don't think I have. I'd love to though, just to study them. I can be pretty machiavellian but its not the way I always operate. I have the deception and manipulation down, but subtlety is not my forte. It just feels boring.

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  116. my MBTI was extremely accurate at describing me...i can read a persons non verbal way of communicating...for example body language, facial expressions and tune into that...thats subtle in my book lol...see i can do subtle ;)...

    besides its always best to create a firework display to keep the masses entertained, whilst behind the scenes are being prepared for the final touches....the show must go on people!!! lmao

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  118. Thanks guys. I move on to the "read people" thread.

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  119. that's really sad that all you see out of life is work, masks, and games =(

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  120. I am in denial if tell myself I am sad for 'him' or that I am trying to 'help' others. No. The only person I'm here to take care of is is me. When we think we love our children and are doing things for 'their own good' we are lying to ourselves. "they" are showing up in my life to let me know what (data) is going on in me that needs to be erased.

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    1. I would be mourning over having lost what what never out there in the first place.

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  121. We are animals with complex brains. god does not exist. If god existed, it would be evil. "Prayer" is one of the most stupid words humans have ever spoken. I have known people in abusive relationships. Usually male on female, but they come in all flavors and gender combinations. The victim thinks, "If I just behave better, he will treat me more nicely." Of course, the abuser seldom (if ever) stops abusing.

    The person with cancer prays to god. If god existed, why did it give you cancer? Why doesn't god erase the cancer? How is praying to god any different than sucking up to an abusing human?

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  122. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)

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