Saturday, January 31, 2015

Beliefs vs. ideas

I thought this was interesting idea, from a recent comment on an old post:

And finally, as for your comment about thoughts vs beliefs, I would say I personally have found it better to have ideas about as many things as possible as opposed to beliefs since ideas are more easily changed if necessary whereas beliefs can limit you as a human being. I'm not saying it's wrong to have beliefs - it's healthy. Just that the more beliefs you have about people and the world, the more limited you are in the ways you can experience the world and I think that would be a good frame of reference for anyone who identifies as a sociopath as well. 

I do think this is how sociopaths probably generally see the world. It's fine for me to have in my mind a series of what I guesstimate are the probabilities that something is true -- e.g. whether or not the moon landing was real, whether or not I am real, whether or not the whole world is a simulation, whether I love my siblings, whether my religion is true. But I don't really have beliefs about most things. I know that some people are the opposite. I have a close family member who has beliefs about all sorts of things, like if you tell him a story about an issue with a co-worker he might have a belief about what really happened and why the person got upset. That belief will seem as true to him in the moment as whether or not he is was born on a particular date -- in fact maybe more so, because he doesn't remember specifically being born and so it doesn't feel as real to him as does his belief about your co-worker. And they are deeply held and he seems to identify with them at a profound level. And it does seem like it would limit you, especially if you were the type to have a strong sense of self. Because these beliefs are you, and if someone challenges your beliefs then they are challenging you and you will be defensive. Does that sound right?

It reminds me of this recent post.


47 comments:

  1. I believe in Wallism. I can't walk through a wall. If you tell me you can walk through a wall, you are full of shit. If you tell me anything exists beyond the empirical world, you are full of shit. As Fritz Perls said, "There are three kinds of communication among human beings. Idle chit chat is chicken shit. Ordinary discourse (i.e., 'The toilet is stopped up,' is bullshit). Profound philosophical discourse is elephant shit."

    I declare this batshit blog officially dead. Tomorrow I die. When I die, you will cease to exist, because I am narcissistic and I only imagine you exist. That's kind of delusional. Not to imagine whale shit.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    2. Theoretically speaking, there is a small but non zero probability of you walking through a wall. Atoms are mostly empty space. At some point in time, they will line up and you could pass through the wall. Quantum theory also allows it I believe and, in fact, quantum tunnelling is used in tunnelling diodes and is necessary for the fusion process of our sun. Even your statement, "when I die, I cease to exist" is probably not 100% correct. You assume that since we experience time in one direction, that it is so for everything. The physics contain no such limitation. So far as we know, all nearly all processes are temporally symmetric. Just because you die, does not mean you no longer exist, any more than if you move to the right then the things to the left of you no longer exist. If we consider the many worlds interpretation, then even if you die in this universe, there are still an infinite number where you are still alive.

      Delete
    3. John. Thanks for using a name, even if it's a false one. You can't believe who boring Anonymous becomes. Even though I was an English major in college, and even I am now 3/4 of the way to senile. I am fairly familiar with the theoretical arguments about walking through walls and about traveling in time. Perhaps you are a scientist? Perhaps you read enough literature to read Kurt Vonnegut's great novel SLAUGHTERHOUSE FIVE about a man who travels in time as a bizarre way of cheating death?

      So even though I have a faint clue of the truth of what you say, I am a pragmatist. As a pragmatist, I know that I can't walk throught walls and that I will die and be gone like a soap bubble as soon as I croak.

      Interested minds (mine anyway) want to know. Why are you here?

      Are you an evil super villain, like the Joker or Lex Luthor? Do you work for the FBi? KGB? Mossad?

      If you tell the truth you secret is safe with us, a web site of liars and serial killers. Thank you for letting me know that I am still alive. I think. Also, you amused me for a few seconds. what more can I ask. I may choose to live for another day. Or . . .

      Delete
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    5. We didn't even know the atom existed until 1897. Before that, as per your worldview, atoms were bullshit.

      Delete
    6. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
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      Delete
  2. In case I am partially incorrect, please direct me to another blog where i can indulge my senile delusion that I am a path.

    ReplyDelete
  3. God and Christ co-existed together before time began. At the approiate time
    God directed Christ to create the Heavens and the earth.
    God "junked" the plan for some reason, and more time went by. There was a
    crude, undeveloped "foundation" of the earth. God (Christ) restored the earth.
    He made the Garden of Eden, which was a REPLECATION of the Heavenly
    Garden that God and Christ lived in ("As above, so below.")
    God (Christ) made the first man (Adam) out so soil.) He breathed the spirit of life
    in his nostrols, and Adam became a "living soul." Until your lungs take in oxegyn, you are not technically a "living soul.
    Abortion is "permissible" because the fetus is insufficently developed to qualify
    as a living soul.
    God ALWAYS intended for the world to be populated, so He made Eve out of
    Adam's rib. The Devil tricked Eve because she was niave, and she gave the
    fruit to Adam. When God found out, Eve blamed the Devil and Adam blamed Eve. So they were kicked out of the Garden. God needed to do this because
    He could allow "flawed, and fallen" Adam and Eve to live forever. He had to keep them away from the "Tree Of Life." If they had eaten of that Tree, they
    would have become immortal. They weren't ready, as humanity as a whole
    insn't ready. The IMMORAL are not allowed to become IMMORTAL,

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Believe what you want, whatever. Not sure what your goal of coming here to preach is.

      Anyway, does anyone have any methods of amusing themselves when talking to preachy people in real life? I grew up going to church, but I don't actually want to have these debates. I'd rather subtly make fun of them to their face. Tips?

      Delete
    2. Mmm... get away from the people who believe in god. I am with RA on this one.
      Or try to convert them...
      For starters, tell them :

      I wish I believed in god, but my intellect does not allow me to do so.

      Then at some point you can ask:

      Do you think people need to believe in god to be decent people?

      The true answer to that last question might be yes for a sociopath. I believe, however, that most people don't need a god or a set of hard coded rules to be decent. They can feel it without the constraint of a religion.

      Thoughts?

      Delete
    3. Well a sociopath does need principles in order to function in society. I might be unique in that I don't reject the idea of God's existence. His existence might transcend what we are capable of understanding. Of course that is a flimsy argument in proving his existence which is why I am far from dogmatic when it comes to this debate. I grew up Baptist and the arrogance that is preached has always bothered me. Although it only bothers me now if it is pressed on me.

      Delete
    4. Certainly believing in a higher power is a type of surrender -- you give up your lust, greed, ego, your suffering, to god. And it's somehow enchanting to think of sitting on the Big Guy's lap while he pontificates on the secret workings of the universe and pats me on the head.

      Old&Wise, I think you're right about most people not needing god because they feel something that makes them want to be decent. Part of that feeling may be ego/identity stuff. Mmm.

      Socio Next Door, I think God would adore a socio loving and surrendering to Him. ;)

      Delete
  4. This is the real RA, Faust, Former Plaything, Puppy Basket, Dr. Ginger, etc. etc. etc. - so many names on here


    AnonymousJuly 26, 2011 at 8:15 PM

    ======================

    I find it interesting that our society is so fucked up that we have mass numbers of insecure people worshipping people that common science considers sick.

    Oh, one more thing. Sociopaths aren't hellbent on gaining power. They are hellbent on gaining enough power in life for them to continue having their fill undeterred. Understand?

    I like fucking with dumb (and sometimes intelligent) women who slowly degrade themselves into providing everything I want from them. I have enough money to live my own life and never need shit from anybody, but what the fuck is the fun in that?

    I rather have a woman buy me a car for my birthday while I see what happens when I purposefully forget hers. I construct myself to be "everything she's ever wanted" and so she is "in love" and then I do things that blatantly show I do not give a shit about her.

    I watch while her head spins trying to put the two together and it's absolutely hilarious. When she gives me a hard time I act like a sick puppy dog who loves her and she forgives me. I then move on to ignoring her (until I want something).

    Eventually the emotionally wounded bitch wises up and makes this whole big break up drama.

    These recent years though I've learned to get her friends/family on my side as soon as possible. Women do not break up with you if their friends and family love you.

    It's hilarious to watch as her family and friends agree with you as you mind fuck her in every aspect of her life until she no longer wants to live. Then when you've gotten everything you think you will get you move on.

    This one time I actually had my girlfriends (or ex I should say) friend come to me and start a relationship with me because I was "too good for that stupid whiney whore who couldn't possibly understand a good man like you".

    Perfect, absolutely hilarious, mountains of enjoyment.

    See, sociopaths DO feel. lol

    Oh and, I don't feel bad for how I am or who I am. I was born this way and it's not my fault someone hasn't killed me yet. The only loneliness I feel is the constant pain of being surrounded by people I consider less than myself.

    I am in pure delight when I find an intelligent and capable peer.

    AnonymousJuly 26, 2011 at 8:17 PM
    ================================

    Oh and on cheating? Want more examples?
    ================================

    My girlfriend who at the time was absolutely head over heels in love with me at the time had dying grand parents.

    She would visit them on some weekends and the drive was long. I had gone once with her already and though she begged me to go again I told her I had work to do.

    I spent the weekend fucking one of her "friends" who had been wanting me since the day she met me. I guess it pays to be good looking and subtly flirtatious.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. She visited a few more weekends until her grand parents died. We continued fucking almost every time she was down there and the other girl excused her guilt by having a conversation about how much of a bitch my GF was to her in high school.

      Gotta love how women can excuse anything with the simplest slights.

      When the boring ass funeral came around for both her grand parents (one died of heart failure, the other of heart disease... which is, missing the person who died). I "received a call from work" and was back at her friends house doing her.

      That's your answer to cheating. Make sure the bitch is clean though.

      Oh and since there was no evidence of me fucking or fooling around with said friend but tons of text messages of her hitting on me...

      I just deleted a few here and there, remade a few online chats and whammo came to my girlfriend and told her her friend had been hitting on me and I was "afraid to tell her because I knew she would believe her friend over me"

      My girlfriend confronts her friend, she spills the beans on our affair and of course my girlfriend believes me. The girl had NO excuse for not being at the funeral and I was painted as the hero that always tries to be there for her even though I have a really demanding job.

      Delete
    2. A commenter's reply to it -

      PetAugust 31, 2013 at 4:45 PM
      Not sure I've ever been more disgusted in my entire life.

      You're not powerful. You are a pathetic - yes PATHETIC - parasite.

      You weren't born a monster, by the way. You made yourself one.

      Delete
    3. That's why the real RA, Faust, Former Plaything, Puppy Basket, Dr. Ginger, etc. etc. has nobody now - no girlfriend, no wife, etc. etc. -
      The masks that he wears...

      Delete
    4. Radical Agnostic-Faust-Former Plaything-Puppy Basket-DR. Ginger-etc. etc.February 1, 2015 at 6:27 AM

      You must be the idiot who hides behind Stay Smart name. Tell us about the masks you (try) to wear, be interesting at least half-way as we are individually.

      Delete
    5. Someone has lots of time on their hands ^

      Delete
    6. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
  5. The ancient Greek, Pyrrho, had a philosophy based on not believing things. It was essentially Buddhism - so says Adrian Kuzminski. It differee from skeptics in that they believe that you can't know things (while the Pyrrhonists suspend judgement on that).

    If you suffer at all, it is probably because you believe things.

    eg a man breaks in, rapes you and steals your stuff. if you get upset about that, it is because you believed stuff like that isn't meant to be or that people ought to be nice to you. says who?

    the modern proponent of pyrrhonism is Byron Katie. she describes how her grandkid was dying in front of her and she was cheerful anyway.

    the mre buddhist/pyrrohnist or byron katie-ist people are, the more they seem like joyful and kind sociopaths

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is brilliant! Thanks for sharing, I had been thinking about the "joyful sociopath" perspective for a while, a way for people who are too emotionally attached to heal, ironic, I know.

      You should get a name to post here :)

      Delete
  6. Ideas rule the world. There are 2 kinds of ideas. Facts and opinions. Facts are things which are. Life is, death is, humans are, everything is....

    Anything added on to a fact is an opinion (or a belief (Ideas about how things work and how to interpret the world)... but they can be limiting because you won't be able to experience anything that contradicts that belief. So it helps to work on your beliefs and opinions, and modify them for the better,

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's a third type of idea, the "what if", a concept that is neither fact nor opinion that drives people to make discoveries and explore fantasy.

      I would disagree that opinions are limiting. They're only limiting if you refuse to see past your own opinions. I frequently enjoy a good debate where I'm pulled into seeing things from another person's point of view. I also enjoy debating concepts from opinions I don't personally hold as a way of seeing the flaws in my own theories and to help demonstrate where another's opinion has a gap. These debates are meant to be stimulating and growing experiences.

      Delete
  7. "And it does seem like it would limit you, especially if you were the type to have a strong sense of self. Because these beliefs are you, and if someone challenges your beliefs then they are challenging you and you will be defensive. Does that sound right?"

    Yup.

    But, I wonder whether not having a strong sense of self can create the need, even obsession, to find and absorb beliefs: Adopting a stern set of beliefs molds identity, a person's persona and consciousness of self. Those people who feel a vacant uncertainty about themselves and are generally naïve and fearful of the world, are prone to joining a cult, the ultimate surrendering of one's identity to belief.

    If we want to evolve and be effective and relevant, our beliefs, ideas and opinions must remain fluid, open to change. Some of my best insights into astrology are the result of long conversations with skeptics, whose arguments forced me to rethink everything I'd learned and thought I knew. For months I felt despair, thinking, even if the basic tenets of astrology are true, of what practical use can I put this knowledge to? One of the skeptics, a boyfriend and writer, wrote a very nasty story about a woman who was sacrificing men to gods she worshipped through a kind of voodoo astrology. That hurt. And then, because he's a witty craftsman, I laughed at the way he had wed this devilish female character to another woman he'd dated, who was into black magic. In any case, the result of listening to critics of astrology is that now I am still fascinated with it,' but I can also laugh at myself, for being the Creator of this fascination, identifying with it. And Ialso laugh at how many people are blinded with misconceptions. In astrology, religion, science, psychology, all abstract concepts invented by man, as constructive lenses to 'make sense' of the world. But as the world grows larger with dark matter and dark energy, parallel universes, etc., so does the mystery. So I'm happy to simply surf the incoming waves of information and let the photons penetrate, reshape my ideas.

    @ 6:27 I am the one and only Faust that I know of on this blog. Who the others are, I can't say. Perhaps you should just call them Legion.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. holy shit..wish Socrates was here

      Delete
    2. We all use theories.. I mean even scientists will admit that we use theories to describe how things work and that they aren't 100% proven. We use particle theory all the time. Its like the most commonly accepted medical theory. Anyways.... the more open you are to change in your system or philosophy (all systems are abstract), the more you are able to grow and become more efficient/effective.

      Delete
    3. JR, You're right about theories not being 100%, but a work in progress, until something more comprehensive (theory of everything, TOE, comes along. A scientific expert in astronomy, astrophysics and cosmic magnetic fields, once said that all science is "groping toward an understanding of how the universe hangs together."

      abc, I wish Socrates were here, too.

      Delete
  8. not related to this post...

    I've been going thru some bookmarks I've put off reading and got to this:

    "Psychopaths and Security"
    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/psychopaths_and.html

    1 of the links doesn't work - use archive.org
    another link has "s at the end of it - delete them and refresh

    ReplyDelete
  9. What the fuck? I guess I will watch the Super Bowl. I played football (though just "sand lot stuff with friends; had no talent). It's America's game, but we are now disenchanted because of concussions. This is the future. I will die. The human race will go extinct by the end of the 21st Century. The dinosaurs and the cockroaches will laugh. Though maybe we will travel to another star system. Who the fuck knows. In case you haven't noticed, there is no God.

    ReplyDelete
  10. A "pure" psycho dont have any beliefs at all; he´ll say he is almost anything you want him to be, as long as he benefits from the situation? Hollow men. Indifferent. Empty buckets desperately trying to "get filled" with illusions about money, power and eternal youth?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Many americans tell psychos they´ve discovered in their everyday surroundings that they are the "Satan" mentioned in the Bible. In europe talk is nonexistant. Where I live "society" gets the blame when folks do dirt. They had no dad or he was bad. Sometimes the rotten apples didnt have any "fritidsgÃ¥rd" (youth club) and this is the culprit.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Only the Paranoid SurviveFebruary 1, 2015 at 5:54 PM

    "a man breaks in, rapes you and steals your stuff. if you get upset about that, it is because you believed stuff like that isn't meant to be or that people ought to be nice to you. says who?"

    My .44 Magnum.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Now, I shall tell you what the remainder of history will be like prior to Christ's
    return. The fact that I can forecast these things tells you the Bible is true.
    The Middle East will be the most important region of the world. There will be much
    more unrest there. Iran will change for the better. Once Iran changes, most terror
    will be defunded.
    Israel will suffer a calamity that will involve the loss of two thirds of it's population. After that, a new Temple will be constructed, but NOT on the site of
    the Wailing Wall. It will be on another location because that's not the real spot
    the original Temple was.
    The Palestians will be given an independant homeland, more or less in the same
    area they are in now. Most terrorism will be quelled.
    The economy will bustle along fairly evenly, with typical ups and downs, but there will NOT be a massive worldwide depression for many years.
    It is only when we get to the 7 year period immeadiately proceeding Christ's
    return when REAL calamity will break out.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Move along. Move along. Nothing to see here. Just the crazy people.

    ReplyDelete
  15. In case you were looking for an answer to your question: If someone breaks in and rapes me and steals my stuff, of course it will cause turmoil in my life. Like I'm certain you believe, my body is meant to be mine, and given only with permission - not to be taken by force. Having my stuff stolen wouldn't be as bad but I've worked hard to earn and collect my possessions, so I do tend to feel as if I have a right to decide where they end up.

    As for the idea of beliefs: They don't have to be limiting. Sometimes a belief can be a way for a person to let go of things that are bigger than them, as it often is with religious beliefs. You also have to take into consideration that there is faith in science as well considering scientific theory might be passed off as truth when in fact it really is just the best theory we have for the moment. Even with things that are proven scientifically: I'm no chemist, and I can be told that table salt is made up of two poisonous chemicals that create something edible, but I don't have the education or the means to separate the two chemicals from each other and prove that individually they're poisonous, nor the ability to combine the two and make them edible again. I believe that what I'm told is true.

    I don't think beliefs are restricting. In some aspects, beliefs can answer questions that are beyond your own capabilities (because let's face it, no one person has the time to do/learn/try everything), and in other aspects it frees a person. For example, for a person who is a sociopath to believe that they are a sociopath, it allows them a better understanding of themselves. Knowing that you are the way you are, and that there's others like you, allows you a sort of freedom and a new way to look at life. Not accepting that you're a sociopath, on the other hand, will create more difficulties in life.

    I know who I am, I believe what I believe. At any point, if you're willing to offer me an intelligent debate to challenge whatever beliefs I hold; I welcome you. Though it could be a result of my own personal interest in people, their beliefs and thought patterns that drives me to seek out new thoughts.

    -Red

    ReplyDelete
  16. Ur a hoodrat. Why havent u left me alone as yet?

    ReplyDelete
  17. "I do think this is how sociopaths probably generally see the world."

    Sound kinda kiss-ass.

    So you think Sociopaths see the world as a bunch of ideas as opposed to seeing it through some belief system or with some belief about things? Don't we all have a belief system? Don't we all believe things? Aren't all facts and ideas just beliefs before a proving context? Context. How can you assert how "sociopaths" probably see things? What is that based on?


    "I have a close family member who has beliefs about all sorts of things, like if you tell him a story about an issue with a co-worker he might have a belief about what really happened and why the person got upset. That belief will seem as true to him in the moment as whether or not he is was born on a particular date -- in fact maybe more so, because he doesn't remember specifically being born and so it doesn't feel as real to him as does his belief about your co-worker."

    How do you know for sure he feels/believes as you describe in the 2 sentences above? You sound a little confident. Like you are a narrator in a story. A story perhaps you tell yourself and "perhaps" others.


    "And it does seem like it would limit you, especially if you were the type to have a strong sense of self. Because these beliefs are you, and if someone challenges your beliefs then they are challenging you and you will be defensive. Does that sound right?"

    If you have a strong sense of self then probably these things would not bother you much, as your identity is strong, which to me suggest internally strong. Less affected externally etc. A "strong" identity might just dismiss such "challenges". And even if it didn't, does receiving challenges to ones beliefs represent a limitation or an opportunity for process of new information (which may also change) and a different direction etc..


    Bee Gees

    ReplyDelete
  18. I didn't mean to link to the whole album there.

    Here are some gems:

    Stop

    until

    together

    whole album is great though

    ReplyDelete
  19. Hello Everyone, I am Daniel Steve by name and i live in Texas USA, i will like to talk about the goodness of God in my life after so many months of trying to get a loan on the internet and was been scammed so i became desperate in getting a loan from a legit lender online. But as God would have it, i saw a comment from a friend called William Ken and he talked about this legit loan company where he got his loan fast and easy without any stress so he introduced me to a man called Mr Mason Diego who controls a firm called Diego Loan Company, So i applied for a loan sum of ($170,000.00USD) with low interest rate of 2%, so the loan was approved and deposited into my bank account in less than 48hrs, that was how i was able to get my loan to keep my broken business running and also to pay off my bills so i am advising everyone of you who is interested in getting a loan fast and easy to kindly contact them via email: { diegoloancompany@yahoo.com } to get any kind of loan you need today, thanks as you read the greatest testimony of my life.

    ReplyDelete
  20. HOW I GOT MY LOAN FROM FABIAN LOAN COMPANY{fabianloanfirm@yahoo.com}
    Hi,
    I am Anna Ruben from United state of America, i stayed in Alabama, and i have a broke up business, until i found this company email who help me to gain a loan for business and now i want to used this short medium to thank the company for the fast and safe money they loan to me without any form of issue or delay, i loan 98,000.00USD form the company to save my business and lots more, i saw their mail on the internet, everyone always give testimony for what they did, so i quickly contacted them and they did everything for me without stress and my money was sent to my account 24hrs later, i was surprise and feel glad, now i now have a standard business control agent who help me and i will advice those who need urgent loan to contact them at [fabianloanfirm@yahoo.com] or cal him on his cell (347)707-8926 , he is a Good man and I know that he will help you immediately.

    ReplyDelete
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