Tuesday, March 2, 2010

Sociopath code

A frequent question I get is how can sociopaths be good? Why would sociopaths choose to "do the right thing" if they don't feel the emotion "guilt" like everyone else does?

We all use short cuts to make decisions. It would be impossible for us to make a fully informed, reasoned decision every time such a decision was necessary. Empaths use emotional shortcuts, sociopaths don't/can't, so we come up with some other shortcut. A lot of sociopaths use shortcuts like "anything goes," or "I am only in it for me," but I have also met/talked to many sociopaths who have a more "principled" approach to life. I have met sociopaths who are utilitarian, a la Jeremy Bentham, or even Rawlsian. Some of my readers use religious codes to guide their actions. I use the shortcut of economic efficiency, gap-filled by Judeo-Christian ethics, which for me acts like a mental/emotional exercise regime -- monotonous drudgery, but ultimately good for mental/emotional health. The one thing that sociopath "codes" tend to have in common is that they don't fully map with prevailing social norms.

To my eyes, normal people lack a certain consistency in their sense of right and wrong. I think the American political parties are a good example of this. Why is the christian right against helping poor people? How can big government square with a desire to maximize individual freedoms? I have often wondered why people choose to be "conservative" or "liberal" rather than libertarian or socialist. My mind can't reconcile the seeming inconsistencies like other people's minds do, apparently.

One sort of bad thing about the sociopath's "code" compared to the empaths' is that the empath really drinks the Kool-Aid and believes that their way of life is "right," and has intrinsic meaning and purpose. Sociopaths get no such benefit from our codes, which is why our coping methods for dealing with the world, with all its uncertainties and pointlessness, are not always adequate to keep the darkness out of our minds and hearts.

86 comments:

  1. good post ME.... fact is i have been working on my own 'code' for lack of a better word, it helps me know my limits and keep my actions/reactions in check...

    i am not sure what i think of the empaths way of reasoning, it seems very confused to me. i was having a discussion last night that leads me to believe that empaths often use 'truth' and their own 'guilt' as one of the most uncaring forms of torture.

    My partner asked me if i would tell her/him if i cheated on them, i said that i would if it was something that truly threatened our relationship, if it wasn't i would not. i say that telling someone that they have been betrayed simply because one feels guilty is insanely self centered.
    ReplyDelete
  2. "i say that telling someone that they have been betrayed simply because one feels guilty is insanely self centered"

    YOU SELFISH PRICK.
    ReplyDelete
  3. wait a minute, i am really getting confused now. i thought bottom line was that all sociopaths were pricks. i mean if you really have a moral code, than what separates any of us from y'all.
    and secondly, i've always felt guilt was bullshit, and i've always been very realistic about situations, but felt as bad penny above that if your really going to destroy someone and the point is kinda moot, they why go there.
    flush all the labels, their all bullshit.
    ReplyDelete
  4. I believe the difference here would be doing something because you know it's supposed to be wrong and it hurts someone and actually feeling someone's pain. Someone can say I hurt them, and I understand that they are upset; I see it. But I don't actually feel that they are upset or that I should feel bad too.
    ReplyDelete
  5. "My partner asked me if i would tell her/him if i cheated on them, i said that i would if it was something that truly threatened our relationship, if it wasn't i would not. i say that telling someone that they have been betrayed simply because one feels guilty is insanely self centered."

    I think what really matters is that you are communicating I am going to assume truthfully and they can take it or leave it. I can see in a way that you are acting almost compassionately by not telling them every time you have sex with someone because it would probably bother them and create disharmony. And, if it is meant honestly, you will tell them if it means you may leave them, the relationship may change etc, then I don't see any problem.

    Though I imagine another concern could be catching something so if they were smart they would want you to agree to use some form of protection, though I imagine you would also want to too.
    ReplyDelete
  6. Interesting. I suppose if I had been cheated on, I would want to know. a)As aspie pointed out, there are far too many diseases and they are all too easy to catch. b)I, personally, do not cheat because I have self-control and expect the same from the other person. However, if I were to cheat, why would I incriminate myself? The other person would cease to trust me, my honesty being the cause. Better to ease unconfirmed suspicion and not burn bridges you may have yet to cross.
    ReplyDelete
  7. I wont be sleeping with anyone without telling her for sure, my point was simply that i see the 'i am gonna tell you the truth when all it will do is hurt you cause i feel guilty' as a hugely selfish thing?

    i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason. it sure as hell doesnt serve my best intrest to betray the few people that truly trust me.

    i am one of the luckiest sociopaths around i have a wife that knows.... well she knows everything and by some stroke of luck she tries very hard to understand. she also happens to be the one person that i have cared more about than i do myself at times, but that is a long story i guess.
    ReplyDelete
  8. "i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason"

    what could be a reason you would do it?
    ReplyDelete
  9. because i want to.... usually they have done something to bring that on, only cause i am older wiser, more in control now.
    ReplyDelete
  10. "usually they have done something to bring that on"

    like what?
    ReplyDelete
  11. shit, that can very.... years ago they could have bumped into me.... today i would say i have been able to keep from causing serious harm even when they have done things that would push most people over the edge... today i think i am safe as long as i have goals and something i allow to keep me in my lines.. so i am not sure...

    read my post on my blog...
    ReplyDelete
  12. maybe you are a good person or one who has become good in a way, it seems like such a lousy way to start

    Despite my perceived intelligence I can lose.

    I think it was chuck norris who said on any given day anyone can lose

    Loyalty and gratitude are equal to love. Keep them close. Is that really true? is this something so uniquely S?

    When I read what you wrote what comes to mind is some book written with the title "the hidden suffering of the sociopath" or similar

    I think its kind of weird... many claim the S is a complete liar, but are they always? to me, and I could be a naive, dumb person, it seems like S;s are extremely honest, to the best of their knowledge, especially on an open forum
    ReplyDelete
  13. In my experience, I don't normally lie unless I feel I need to. Lying isn't necessarily a compulsion so much as a useful tool. I'll admit using it for entertainment purposes, but not because I can't help myself. Empaths justify lying all the time (white lies, fibbing, pranks). But then, I'm not sure if I'm a socio. I never even considered the label until I wound up here. Not that I would mind really.
    ReplyDelete
  14. aspie.... when i dont feel threatened, which isnt often i can be pretty honest, maybe to honest.
    ReplyDelete
  15. I can relate to that justabadpenny.
    ReplyDelete
  16. Father DearestMar 4, 2010 03:36 AM
    Do you find that there are "compulsions" though?
    I'm in dire need of advice. I haven't developed a conscious as such, but I feel I' in a Jekyl / Hyde situation.
    I love my girlfriend (well, fiance now), I properly adore her. I want to be her, I want to be inside her head. But as I can't do that I just want to spend my time loving her and making her feel loved, because I understand this feeling now.
    However. I can't seem to control the thoughts of outright hurt and manipulation that are flooding in. I don't act on them because I know they would hurt my relationship and therefore make me unhappy. However, I really do feel like I'm losing control on what I do and don't do. If that makes sense. I have started to tell her really banal and pointless lies, just to "get it out of my system". Can anyone at all relate to this? It's hard to explain. Really fucking me off, too. I feel like I'm breaking out of myself, again. I have so much power over this girl, she put so much trust in me. What the hell.
    ReplyDelete
  17. I understand what you're saying. I've hurt people close to me for this reason too. The compulsion isn't to lie, as I understand it, so much as it is to be in control of the situation. You're the one creating and shaping her reality. It's a work of art, and lying is your paintbrush. I probably wasn't clear on that earlier.
    ReplyDelete
  18. Would it be fair to say that some people have a "good" nature (though can do bad) and some people have a "bad" nature (though can do good) and many people are kind of in between. One should "respect" everyone because we are all equally valid or else we wouldn't be?
    ReplyDelete
  19. aspie, I recommend reading Mill's On Liberty. It's a good gateway to understanding how things are "supposed" to work. It's an incredibly dry and dull read, but it does make points I believe you'll find interesting. Personally, I'm more of a fan of Machiavelli, but the conquest of power comes with much more deception, intrigue, and realism than the idea of "live and let live."
    ReplyDelete
  20. I'll take a look at that.
    Thanks C.
    ReplyDelete
  21. However, I really do feel like I'm losing control on what I do and don't do.

    Losing control over your fondness for her or of your lies?
    ReplyDelete
  22. guilt is an emotion and socio's feel guilt a little differently. in my experience, its not so much guilt you feel, its more that you feel confronted and pissed off that you got caught so you quickly try to "fix" things either by pushing blame elsewhere or with more lies depending on the situation.

    as for the situation with your fiance, what are you hoping to gain with your lies? you must not be completely fulfilled with this woman or maybe you don't feel completely secure in your control? either way, if you have something to gain, then do it, if not then wait it out.

    people do things because they get something out of it. be aware of your needs and wants then do what you need to do to acheive this goal (like security in your control.)
    ReplyDelete
  23. my hub and i are both "empaths" and we (logically i think) agreed to the don't tell policy for 1 night stands. it is selfish - and foolish - to risk the stability of a good marriage because of one bad decision (and also logically, we both recognize that we are both capable of making bad decisions). now an affair is a different story...

    @anon - i don't always feel bad when someone claims i've hurt them in some way. my 5 year old loves to tell me i hurt his feelings when i don't give into his every whim. and while i can understand why he feels the way he does, i don't feel bad about doing my job.

    i believe our ideas (culturally) about love are pretty wonky. the romantic ideal we see in movies, etc isn't real love. someone said that love is a verb, not a feeling.

    i've known 2 sociopaths in my life (that i'm aware of!), and both of them lied just for fun. maybe it was control they were after, but i'm utterly baffled at some of the lies they told and what exactly they got out of them.

    @aspie - i don't believe in "good" and "bad" people; it's too dependant on which moral or ethical code you're currently subscribing to. but if you view a culture as an organism, there are certainly parts that contribute to the survival of the organism and parts that feed off the organism like a cancer. cultural goals often determine what is seen as good or evil.

    sociogirl - what most disturbs me about your description of a sociopath's experience of guilt is that it's exactly how you would expect a preschooler to react to being told he/she did something wrong. and, assuming i'm within the "normal" emotional range (which may not be true), i often feel that way when confronted. the difference being that i either go forward to accept responsibility (if i realize they are correct) or defend my position (if i still think i'm right).

    -Laine
    ReplyDelete
  24. well Laine, that is exactly my point...i do not feel that way. i cant say i have ever felt guilt in the pure sense of the feeling. i pretty much whatever i have done to hurt you, youprobably deserved whether it be your stupidity, your weakness or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time. either way, you should have been more aware and maybe next time you will be wiser, which just ups the stakes of my game. it would now be more of a challenge. i don't kill people or anything like that, its all about mind f***ing someone that i completely enjoy.
    ReplyDelete
  25. @sociogirl - i believe i understand what you're saying. i just think "normals" (whatever the hell that is) have the same *initial* reaction; guilt comes after reflection. i find the similarities interesting.

    can you help me clarify something? do you dislike people in general and why? i'm a bit of a misanthrope myself, and i'm guessing for some of the same reasons - in general people are not very bright. but do you need those people around you to manipulate so you can feel powerful? at a hypothetical "sociopath's convention" would you stop manipulating or be happy to be surrounded by people as smart and aware as you (let's assume for the hypothetical that they are both)?

    thanks for replying! i'm so fascinated by all this that i've been obsessing since i found the site.
    -Laine
    ReplyDelete
  26. hmm...good question. i would say i do not hate people, i, in fact, have many people around me at all times. i hate to be alone....where is the fun in that? to the outsider, to those who know me, i am well liked and have many friends. i am a sweet girl that cares so much about everyone. one of my very best friends happens to be of the socio ranks and she is the only one i have ever let see part of me. and i do stress part. i can't let her completely see everything.
    ReplyDelete
  27. @sociogirl...so do you "keep up appearances" just to keep yourself surrounded by potential victims (or current victims)? or are those people part of your 'tribe' so you don't mess with them? and if that's true, what do you get out of your relationship with your tribe?

    why can't you let her see everything? what would happen if you completely removed the mask, not just to her but to some hypothetical person who could do nothing about it?

    oh, every question makes me think of more!
    -Laine
    ReplyDelete
  28. i "keep up appearances" to seem like a normal part of society. i'm pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't talk to me if i had a sign on my back reading sociopath, lol....which would be far less entertaining.

    and i don't believe you should ever take off your mask completely...thats how people like me get in. she doesnt let me all the way in either, lol. the image i have given people of myself is not at all what i truely am. so no, there is no tribe, just a "close" group of friends. i made my way into this particular group for one person and use the others in the group to toy with this one person.

    oh and laine, i know you are becoming more interested and aware, just be careful, i can almost see your wheels turning, lol.
    ReplyDelete
  29. what is your guideline for "normal" society? i'm wondering if there are parts of society that are easier for you to fit into or if your differences are deeper than the differences between a gang environment (where being a sociopath might actually be helpful?) and the country club set.

    lol, i'm sure the sociopath sign would probably put off alot of people! although i wonder about the people it wouldn't put off...anyway, are there certain traits you find more important to hide than others?

    oh, i *was* victimized by a sociopath many eons ago, and in the last few years have watch another one victimize some of my in-laws. but i completely remove my mask all the time (in fact, i rarely wear one anymore at all), and i find it makes me much *less* vulnerable. isn't it what one isn't willing to see and accept about oneself that creates vulnerability?

    so the only thing you get out of your friends is a veneer of respectability and the enjoyment of toying with them?

    oh, my wheels are digging in at this point! should i be careful of jumping down this rabbit hole or are you implying i should be careful of you?
    -Laine
    ReplyDelete
  30. lol, no, you don't need to be careful of me....not saying that at all.

    the traits i hide most are pretty much everything that i am. all of my thoughts. i know they would not be accepted by well, by anyone, so i know its best to keep that stuff to myself.
    ReplyDelete
  31. Great thread. I am not a socio but I am also not a normal person and I agree with the original post, such as: "normal people lack a certain consistency in their sense of right and wrong." Only I hope that the word "normal" meant "average" rather than "non-socio." Many of us non-socios think for ourselves too and easily see through all this political hypocracy and stupidity. We may be a litle too trusting at times, but we're not all idiots. ;-) I am impressed with how honest so many people are here. It is very refreshing. OK, some of it is a little spooky, but I'd rather be spooked than lied to. I read that the average person lies 3 times every 10 minutes. Justabadpenny, u may be a lucky sociopath but I think u have a lucky wife too. You are loyal, honest, and trustworthy and you appreciate her very much. They say that love is a verb. You may not feel it like some do, but each love is different, and you are loving by your actions. Men have truly loved me and cared about me but they could not give me what you give your wife. I could love an honest sociopath on those terms. ;-)
    ReplyDelete
  32. Hello guys and girls,

    I wondered if some of you might lend me some advice with my relationship with a sociopath.

    I was in a serious relationship with a female sociopath for 6 years and I've know about her sociopathy for 4 months.

    Now we would both like the relationship in the long run to work out. Although we obviously both have different needs that we're struggling to meet. Really I'm just a good enough partner to latch onto, but of course the amount of pain I endure doesn't matter. She claims that she wants to change and not act in a destructive manner. By doing interrogations during her sleep, I've been able to ascertain she does want to marry me but is scared that her anti-social personality disorder will cause her to hurt meet and act whorishly, causing too much damage to me and relationship. The marriage would fail. This would be a bad thing if we had kids, which we nearly had 2 years ago.

    Can you offer any advice on how I can help her develop these codes of conduct. Is there any way I can influence her so she considers my feelings in her thinking? Beyond of course what I can take before I break it off. What made you guys develop codes of conducts to your partners. If of course you act in ways that consider the partners emotions and feelings?

    In addition. Is there any way for me to move into special territory, where she no longer feels the urges to lie and manipulate me. Or does such a place not exist for you? Honestly, I don't want to be a passive victim and I will fight my corner to make her act at least honourably. Even if it does deeply wound us in the process, which of course it is.

    The difficulties for me as an 'Empath'.

    The main sticking point is I'm having trouble empathising with her fears and motivators while she is developing this new code of conduct. Currently it involves her acting in a selfish manner and really damaging me. This isn't acceptable with me and I'm trying to help her understand why this has to change for the relationship to work out.

    I'm well aware this may all be a part of the game for her. However, emotionally I checked out. I don't like any aspect of her, I can't forgive her, I don't trust her and I watch her every move/word/action like a hawk. But I swore a personal oath to be by her side always. If I can help her by being in her life I will, if I have to leave to help her understand a point then I will. But unlike half my family I do not abandon those I make commitments to.

    Background on me

    A little background on myself, so you can get an idea what is driving me. Perhaps you will see the go manipulate banners she saw and will be able to understand her motivators.

    Now I don't confess to being a 'good' and 'normal' person myself. My dad, uncle and dad's father were all sociopaths, there's a strong genetic link right? They caused a lot of damage to the family and themselves as a whole. I also have an extremely high tolerance to emotional pain, guilt (if I really do feel it), but what I do feel is self-hatred for my transgressions. I do not want to be like them, I want to generally be liked and appreciated, for who I am and not what I pretend to be (been there done that). So I have a very strong set of morals and code for behaviour. To some degree these are selfish but when they are selfish they don't hurt anybody else.

    I don't know if there is something 'wrong' with me, or if it's just in my head and I'm as messed up as everybody else.

    ...

    Anyway if you guys have any input I would be interested to hear it. It's pretty rare to get a unemotional reaction when you want first hand advice on relationships with sociopaths.

    PS – I can understand you guys are human as well. I'm not into labels such as good and evil. Despite what you may feel towards me I view you as equals, just particularly dangerous people if I let you close to me.

    Cheers,
    Rich
    ReplyDelete
  33. empaths don't necessarily always "drink the coolaid" either. to an extent, they mind have some advantages in society when it comes to knowing what is acceptable, but what is acceptable is not always right. Also, one's own code or moral values can change based on experience. someone might have done something they thought was right before and then learned that it wasn't as right as they thought. then an empath would be plagued with more guilt than a sociopath. also, they could be bothered more by a contradiction between societal 'norm' and what they personally believe is right.

    I wonder what would be a sociopath's motives for creating this blog? is it to understand normal people more so that you can have more of an edge in exploitation?

    I don't necessarily believe that there can be no such thing as a moral sociopath. I wouldn't have a problem with a sociopath just for being a sociopath as long as they don't give me a reason to have a problem with them. It is hard for me to completely understand, though, why a sociopath would want to refrain from causing harm if they could probably get away with it. Are there any other reasons why you have a moral code besides so that you can use them to create the illusion that you are an empath? If you could get away with breaking your moral code, would you? if you wouldn't, I'm curious, why not? I can think of some reasons myself, but I'd rather hear it from the source without any input from me.
    ReplyDelete
  34. T.S. Elliot wrote a lot about sociopaths, and many suspect he was one. See: http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/784/

    Also, a pertinent line from Murder in the Cathedral by Elliot:
    "The last temptation, the greatest treason, is to do the right thing for the wrong reason."
    Which is something socios do often just for the sake of appearances and/or manipulation. It's interesting that he attributes via his novel's character, such harsh judgment to this act.
    ReplyDelete
  35. Daniel BirdickJun 28, 2010 10:54 AM
    I was just thinking about this very subject and it occurred to me that you (m.e.) had probably written something about it already. Sure enough, you have. I particularly liked your last paragraph. It sums up my own experiments with trying to adopt some kind of code quite nicely. I think it must really help to believe in a personal, interventionist god or that morality is objectively true. Without that, I have found that I unable to really stick with/believe in any kind of ethical code. Ah well, I can at least say that I tried.

    Good post, M.E. I found it insightful and helpful.
    ReplyDelete
  36. code, morals, etc...

    come on, it's your nature to be what you are and it's our nature as "normals" to expose you for the parasites that you actually are..

    Not rocket science, you are what you are, there is a reason for your existence, its just that most people aren't aware of it. I am though, and I'm up to my third exposing of an SP... ooo the counter manipulation is such an enjoyable thing..

    That's the thing you see, you are so far up your own arses, you can't see it can you?

    Like all things in life there is pattern, and I can spot an SP from a mile off now.. I just run to them and let revel in their misguided view that they are manipulating me, but I just play along and document it all...

    Such fun.... like all parasites, when exposed their weakness is plain to see.
    ReplyDelete
  37. Hating sociopaths, and wanting to hurt them or get even with them, to me, is more pathetic than being one, only because a non-sociopath can choose to be empathetic. Sociopaths do not have that choice. They can choose to hurt people or not to hurt, to use people or not to use, and because they feel no empathy or guilt, I admire those who choose not to hurt or use people for personal gain. I admire them for making this choice much more than I admire a “normal” person, who has no excuse to hurt and use other people. I do consider a sociopath misguided if in fact, their upbringing contributed to, or caused their sociopathy (and I think that 99% of the time it was at least a contributing factor). I can feel compassion for socios whether or not they want my compassion, because it is clear from the posts here that many of them are aware (and openly admit) that they are missing something that most people have and value. They appear to be missing what some of us consider the core of our being—our heart and soul. When I read these posts, I keep thinking of the Lion and the Tin Man, and I wish I could give all the socios hearts. (I wouldn’t burden them with guilt though—they are better off without it. ;-).
    ReplyDelete
  38. "Such fun.... like all parasites, when exposed their weakness is plain to see."


    You're just the type we're so used to see parading the screen in documentaries about "the common people" during Nazi Germany ... those who wouldn't blink when sending a neighbor to the gas-chamber (after having first watched him starve in the concentration camps and split up his family ... and yadda yadda. You know what I mean.
    All these normal people were oh so "empathic" as long as it was all about "normalcy" and being a "good citizen" (...of the Nazi Reich). - And you know, they used science to study "Jewishness", if somewaht more crude than our present neuro-science. I'm not talking against studying anything, but against judging based on labels and prejudice.

    You do not belong in the group of people called "empaths". At least the more intelligent among them know what "you" (the type that guy's post represent) stand for is truly horrific.

    ...And no, my reply isn't meant for him. He's obviously either a kid having a bit of fun, or he's beyond any sense anyone could come up with, sociopath or otherwise.

    Zhawq.
    ReplyDelete
  39. their are two things i don't get. one why are people bringing up good and evil, right and wrong so much those things don't exist their just words made up by the powerless to protect themselves and restrict thos with power. The other thing i don't get but to a lesser extent then the whole good the evil thing is the code whats the point of having a code all having a code will do is restrict you i mean the only code that's worth having or that i respect is becoming the best in what ever you decided to do.

    I would truly be interested in hearing what other people have to say about this
    ReplyDelete
  40. Good and evil, bad or good are set up as protection as much for us as for the ones that we are in some way responsible for. We tell children not to play with matches or play in the road because we know even if they don't the damage that can be cause. A code is a protection too an it comes with experience and thinking. We all learn from our mistakes a clearer lesson then just having someone one telling us not to do something. Motives are less hidden by empaths then S. and what our position is in other's lives as a mother, father, sister or brother usually rules our reason for setting boundries not to just have good fun with controling, enslaving or humiliating those that are weaker for sport.
    ReplyDelete
  41. Good & evil get a bad rap, and so does God. So many whackos, fundamentalists, and other cult people are so obsessed with their petty limited versions of good & evil, and their versions of God, that many sensible intelligent people want no part of it, understandably. But good, evil, and God should not be dismissed just because confused, fearful, and ignorant people cling to their distorted views about these mysterious realities. The act of abusing something innocent and helpless is the epitome of evil, and helping another being or creature with no thought of gain--pure altruism--this is an example of good. Sacrificing yourself for the sake of others is good. Betraying friends is evil. Basically, on a deep level, truth is good, and lies are evil. (Of course, there are exceptions that involve being true to something greater than just what is being said or not said.) Generally speaking, deceitfullness, selfishness, calousness, prejudice, are all forms of evil, just as all great art, elevated humor, true kindness, and generosity are forms of good. I think the smell of baking bread is a purely good reality. ;-) Most evil is fear-based and most goodness is faith-based and/or based on courage. Good & evil are big mysteries, like love, because we don't understand their sources. We get so confused because we're fed so much crap about superficial moralities, and other nonsense--we're told that this has something to do with good and evil, when, of course it is just socio-cultural mores, which are necessary for society to evolve, but do not have much to do with good and evil. What is considered good in one age is evil in another. Many people pretend to be good, appealing to fears and emotions to get others to do bad things in the name of God and goodness--I think most of them believe their own lies. And good people do bad things, all the time--out of weakness, fear, lack of wisdom. Most of us are not all good or all evil. But I believe if we truly want to be good, in eternity, we will be. It is not so complicated if you believe that good and evil can be measured or assessed by intention, rather than by actions. I believe a murderer can be good inside and we all know priests can be very very bad. But I also think that many people (as well as many children and animals) have good instincts and often can detect good and evil with their gut feelings.

    The word "good" comes from the word "God," so ultimately, good is God. God is also love, so love is good. The further you get from love, the closer you get to evil. But if you cannot feel love, that is not evil. Rejecting or condemning love and goodness may be evil. Continuing to reject it is sin. Goodness is very powerful, but evil is just lack of goodness, so it has no real power of its own--evil is like a shadow. it just temporarily blocks the light. It can be seductive, because it often appeals to the ego, or offers material rewards, but like the ego, it has no eternal value. It makes a big stink but eventualy it peters out or self destructs, while the good always remains, untarnished, and grows stronger. Good and evil exist--good and rejection of good. Just as there is night and day, and without these extremes, we would be very bland, lifeless robots. It would not matter whether we hurt people or not; whether we were out for ourselves or wanted to help others and make the world a better place. Nothing would matter except satisfying our needs and desires. There would be no right and wrong, no better or worse, no delicious and awful, no beauty and ugliness . . . our entire lives are based on striving to become better. And I suspect that the people who truly understand the importance of striving to be good for goodness' sake, are those who find true fulfillment and contentment. This may be a strange place for me to go on and on about the power and beauty of goodness, but hey--I didn't bring it up! ;-)
    ReplyDelete
  42. I recently discovered myself to be an empath, and because of this I've become completely fascinated by sociopathy. The mindset was so foreign to me that I was almost desperate to understand it. I'm beginning to realize that there's no hope that I'll ever truly understand your kind, so I'm not particularly worried about it anymore. However, your view of empaths seems... kind of small. The principle that I base my life on is very simple: "I know that I know nothing." I'm not so closed-minded and arrogant as to believe that my way of life is superior to anyone else's. I actually dearly love a sociopath, and I'm exceptionally respectful of his 'condition' because it's as much a part of him as my high sensitivity is a part of me... What I'm trying to say is that empaths are just as susceptible to lacking conviction as sociopaths. We just happen to possess the additional drawback of feeling far, far too much.
    ReplyDelete
  43. OpenEmpath: I think when people talk about empaths here, they are talking about non-sociopaths, not actual empaths. At least that is what it seems, if you read the posts. But, even so, as I wrote above, not all non-socios are alike--we cannot all be stereotyped--we are not all stupid, ignorant, predictable, or easily programmed. Just as it is clear, when you spend time here, that you cannot lump all socios together. It has been very mind-opening to me, to read these posts. Being somewhat of an actual empath myself, perhaps that explains my fascination with sociopathy, who knows. It could be that I have been close to people I suspect were socios. I wonder if there is a way to know for sure if someone is or not, and I wonder if there ae borderline cases--I would imagine that there are.
    ReplyDelete
  44. I think that the question, "how can sociopaths be good?" stems from the fact that people only really hear about sociopaths in the mainstreams when someone goes on a serial-killing spree. And I am pretty sure that although the majority are probably sociopaths, it is also unfairly attributed to some (that is bs of course, I don't believe anything can be unfairly done to a serial killer, that is laughable, they deserve worse than what they get). But seriously, if people only hear about sociopaths as cold-blooded killers, then of course they would wonder why any would "chose to 'do the right thing..."
    The reason is simple in my view, it is because they are able to recognize what "the right thing" is by societal norms, and can consider what is the right course of action, even if they don't feel anything about it one way or another. That is how I've gotten by. I was religious a long, long time ago, but that is something I have completely separated myself from for personal reasons. I am not an atheist, but I also no longer believe in anything. And I can still see right from wrong.

    The real disgusting thing is that people think of this in the extreme. "How can sociopaths be good?" There are plenty of empaths who use their natural understanding of human behavior to benefit themselves at others' detriment. That is not good at all, yet they are the exact opposite of sociopaths.
    The end truth is that it isn't about nature, it is about nurture. Come up with something good, even if it isn't much, and you have something to pattern what is socially considered positive off of, whether or not doing the exact opposite makes you feel worse.
    ReplyDelete
  45. You are so right, Anonymous. We only hear about sociopathic serial killers, or the "sociopaths among us" who are out for themselves at our expense. But that's because it's hard for sociopaths, on this planet, to talk openly. Therefore, you have no voice to defend yourselves (and/or educate the rest of us). But then along comes the Internet! ;-) To my surprise and delight, I have already learned here, that many a sociopath is far more conscientious and noble than many a non-siciopath. Of course, I knew that many non-socios were truly bad--or could do very bad things out of weakness or delusion. I imagine there are socios who believe in God too--not because they feel God's presence or love, but because they have reasoned that God's existence makes sense, intellectually and/or scientifically. I wonder. I've been online steadily since 1996, yet this is the only virtual place I have ever felt comfortable talking openly, from the heart, about good and evil, morality, and so forth. Who knew? ;-)
    ReplyDelete
  46. I get that you don’t need a conscience to follow some kind of ethical code. I get that in some ways, the lack of emotionality might even make it easier to follow any kind of ethical code with consistency. My questions for sociopaths are:

    Are you routinely successful in adhering to your code? And

    Are you relatively happy, peaceful as a result? In other words, have you found it psychologically beneficial?
    ReplyDelete
  47. Socialpaths are absolutely crazy. You can beat them at there own game. You need to train yourself to think like them. Your responses to their lies and intention for complete destruction must be well thought our based up logic, not emotion. They thrive to see their targetic victims suffer... Never show weakness, in fact demonstrate emotional strength even when it's not there. This will drive them to resort to more drastic measures to emotional harm you and they will make mistakes. You just need to know where to look. As a targeted victim myself I started looking and researching places my partner interacted with people in positions of power where notes were documented. The socialpath will typically state all kinds of misleading and untrue facts to hightened there attractiveness to the situation and if necessary and it usually is; belittle you.
    ReplyDelete
  48. It seems to me that the only way to do this would be to make "Good" more desirable than "Bad."
    ReplyDelete
  49. Sounds like me. In the end there is no invariable moral code to follow. Productivity is the final answer. I'm a compulsive scheduler and organizer, every day has a game plan, and every decision, whether moral or not, is weighed against how it will benefit me and my goals in the long run. Simple.
    ReplyDelete
  50. "A frequent question I get is how can sociopaths be good? Why would sociopaths choose to "do the right thing" if they don't feel the emotion "guilt" like everyone else does?"

    I would say thats the wrong question to ask. And I think you purposely approached it that way.

    Here's a better question that I think is more representative of the query being addressed.

    Why would a socipath do "the right thing" if they could 1) get away with it and 2) doing so would not be immediately and personally as advantagious to them verse "doing the wrong thing"?

    This is a much more direct question and saves alot of rationalizing.

    "One sort of bad thing about the sociopath's "code" compared to the empaths' is that the empath really drinks the Kool-Aid and believes that their way of life is "right," and has intrinsic meaning and purpose."

    Your view of empath is really skewed. You want to be understood but you have some many false generalizations about others. Here you are talking about how society imposes all these negative connotations on the scoiopath when you do the exact same thing. Please show me where the defintion of an empath is synonymous with self rightousness and self delusion. That is what you describe.

    It similar to me saying that all sociopaths are unfeeling monsters that are so self deluded that they can't possibly understand the world around them in a non-singular subjective way. So they make up "codes" to further delude themselve that they aren't just making shit up to justify their complete subjectivity and disguise it as objectivity.

    ou constantly attribute traits to empaths that are not conclusively tied to them. Which means you are projecting and trying to rationlize why you think your point of view is not only different but more (sic) honest. This is often done to convince yourself or rationalize (rather than use reason) you thoughts and opinions.

    But I guess this is the price we all pay when no one (even the sociopaths) ever learn what it is to think critically. The logical fallacies that you make with every article is astounding for one that purports to be honest with themselves and intelligent.

    Psst...your ignorance and need to convince yourself of your opinions as turth is showing. But don't worry most people do because it is human nature to do so, and sociopaths are still subject to general human nature. Your narcissism is trying convince yourself that such negative seeming (from you point of view)traits are only those of others and does not include you or those like you.
    If you are fine with deluding yourself rather than educating yourself thats fine but don't expect others to share your delusions or adhere to the things you are projecting on them.
    ReplyDelete
  51. Let offer this analogy to enlighten the misunderstanding you seem to have with others view verses your own. Its incredibly simple and does not address the complexities of the human psychie but I think it shows the basic point.

    If I asked people to choose between two colors green or blue and they choose one, it doesn't mean they are blind to the other color or are fooled into thinking that there choice is naturally the superior one. It means they have an PERSONAL opinion in favor of one verses the other. That opinion may also change at some later time because of the very fact that choice does not automatically mean ignorance of the alternatives.
    ReplyDelete
  52. Why would a sociopath (psychopath) choose to do something 'good' when we don't feel it?

    It's all about practicality. If it leads you to your goal, you do it.

    We are not Good, but we are also not Bad.
    It is not only 'good' that doesn't mean anything to us, 'bad' also means nothing to us.

    Those terms both carry no real meaning for us, other than this:

    Good = Our gratification.
    Bad = No gratification.
    ReplyDelete
  53. Anon 6:45,

    A few words from a fellow reader, if that's okay:

    M.E. is always purposeful. He does this regularly, but he writes some damn sensible and informative articles from time to time... and that's for both groups (sociopaths/psychopaths and Empathic normal people).

    Clearly I cannot REALLY speak for empaths, but I have read comments saying as much posted by empaths. And no, they weren't gullible fools.

    My immediate reaction to your post was to say:

    Don't let those small discrepancies get to ya. I mean, sometimes it's alright to let people think for themselves. ;)


    But then I read on and found there was more to say:

    "Your view of empath is really skewed. You want to be understood but you have some many false generalizations about others."

    We all have skewed views of the groups we aren't ourselves part of. Yet we still want others to understand us. Nothing sinister in that. We're human too!


    "Here you are talking about how society imposes all these negative connotations on the scoiopath when you do the exact same thing."

    I know, you wrote this to M.E., not to me. But I have a blog too, and I also do this.

    You must yourself be part of either the empath majority or of a minority that holds special status, or you would understand why one gathers a few bitter itches from being stigmatized.

    It seems you're not aware about the extent of 'skewedness' that our minority in particular meet. Did you know that some people actually think we're not even human? Did you know there's being research done with the purpose of doing away with our very existence?

    I dare say that's pretty hostile despite the civil tone it is being communicated in, and it would push any minority into a defensive position, no?


    "It similar to me saying that all sociopaths are unfeeling monsters that are so self deluded that they can't possibly understand the world around them in a non-singular subjective way."

    There you go.

    When we have read Your post and found something positive, we read a hundred books that talk about how to control and eliminate us.

    .....
    ReplyDelete
  54. Anon 6:45 (again)

    And the second half:

    "So they make up "codes" to further delude themselve that they aren't just making shit up to justify their complete subjectivity and disguise it as objectivity."

    It's a terrible urge. What can I say...


    "The logical fallacies that you make with every article is astounding for one that purports to be honest with themselves and intelligent."

    Really? You think he does it with EVERY article? I disagree.

    Then again, most of his articles don't even pertain to empaths. Maybe that's why I don't get this impression, since I am not an empath myself.

    But I can assure you that from a 'Sociopathic' perspective he's being quite forward and frank in ways that are uncommon to us.

    Uncommon, since it is in our nature to be secretive and see to it that others do not learn about not only our individual flaws, but about our flaws as a group, because that too is telling.

    Yet M.E. is doing this. So am I (on my own blog).


    "Psst...your ignorance and need to convince yourself of your opinions as turth is showing."

    Well, again I disagree. I'm sure M.E. knows very well where he sits in this respect. You started by using the word 'purposefully'. That is not self convincing, it is convincing others.

    In my understanding M.E. knows what he's doing.

    However, it may all be a question about perspective. And both you and I cannot choose completely freely in that regard, since I cannot choose to feel empathy and develop a sense of moral, and you cannot choose to stop doing so.

    If you are interested in seeing how another "sociopathic"* individual does in terms of being honest, you're welcome to pay my blog a visit. I would be interested in learning how you feel about my level of success in regard to avoiding the temptation to intellectualize and turn tables to make myself look better.

    As I say above I'm aware of this temptation, but I sincerely want to create some kind of connection or means via which I can communicate with the empath majority.


    * = My diagnosis says Psychopath. And I tend to stick with this term because it to me seems practical to have a clear definition. It gives you a better understanding about what you're really talking about, since there are so many aspects in this cluster of personality types who - though connected by certain behavioral commonalities - are very different in certain ways.
    (I explain these things in my blog as well, though I should say it is still fairly new, a few months old, and there're lots of topics I haven't yet covered).
    ReplyDelete
  55. well as a sociopath i usualy do what is most rational and if i genearlly find helping people and doing good thing to be benificial and not just as the notoriety either
    ReplyDelete
  56. I think that you can't be rational if you aren't emotional as well.
    ReplyDelete
  57. to the contrary, emotion clouds judgement and detracts from the ability to make rational decisions.
    -Klepto

    p.s. I know using italics on this is childish, but I haven't coded in HTML in forever and the nostalgia was killing me.
    ReplyDelete
  58. Ive had a lesbian on/off rel for 4 yrs with a socio. im bipolar myself. i just dont get why in the world she dishes out so much pain , when she knows damn well i will just give it her straight back and anihilate her in my own defence ? surely only a fucking retard would willingly want to keep getting burned lol .its emotional suicide, and has never beat me at anything at all bar scrabble lmfao .big deal, this empath will never be crushed. truth and honesty wins everytime.
    ReplyDelete
  59. For five years I have been dealing with the socio...I had no idea how fucked up this person was....we met at work, dated for three weeks and he got thrown in jail for probation violation.Then I got the "I love you" and fell for it. Three months of visiting a country club prison...released to my house..beatings started in...now the sick shit happens...I enjoyed it.I got to beat this man with no repurcussions due to the fact that that he was always drunk and had a no drink on his parole. Ooh the fun to watch the frustration. The the neighbor called the cops and he got caught...back to jail,back home, off to anger management for a year. I loved to watch his misery going to classes every week.More fights, more beatings...he cried"no one has ever talked to me the way you have"..too bad,poor baby.One more big fight and we both go to jail...me for a day-him for a month.Never had a charge before and did't want to have a rap sheet like his so I reversed roles and became "the controlled" so he thought.Another game to play...poor weak little woman who loves her monster. One day he moved out...saw it coming. Life was boring for thee months...until he came back. This time I was the I-don't-give-a-fuck porn star.Sat on his buddies lap with no undies on,screamed at the top of my lungs at orgasm so roommates would get interested,jealous.Three weeks of this and he's back in jail...for almost a year. Letters,visitation,phone calls ...so good at playing good when the whole time he was in jail I was being very bad...I loved the double life.Out of jail again...back at home with me...I became the aloof woman.He would scream"You don't give a fuck about anything"...I did, I was trying to drive him nuts. Take all of his power away.All of his efforts to swindle me out of my money didn't work. He couldn't cheat because he had a bracelet on this time and no woman wants to take a man's pants off and see that.Couldn't drink because he had an at home breatholyzer....hahaha the fun. I loved to get drunk in front of him, watch his arms break out in goosebumps.When he got the bracelet off... I knew it would be a matter of time before he found his next victim...I exposed his secrets to his friends-stealing their dope, feeding off their food and beer, never returning anything.One more fight where I got the punch in, not him...too afraid to go back to jail because he was almost off probation...annhilated him with a tongue Satan himself would be afraid of...asked him to leave for the night...he thought he could dupe me when he showed up with a truck to move...only his things were packed.Out the door he goes, but wait!His truck was in my name so I let the weekend pass and got a hold of him and told him if he did'nt meet me at the DMV I would call it in stolen. Still in control....We got there and he tried not to get it in his name but I was ready-had allready talked to a woman there and she said "I'll fix this".Cool and calm,did the paperwork went to the window and he was trying to put old plates back on...she held firm and jammed it in his name. The look on his face was worth 150$-murder in his eyes.Went home, changed locks,phone number...gave him a false sense of security that I knew would make him drink like a fish, drive again,only to get picked up 6 days later.One week before he was off probation. He sits in jail now as I write this...his least favorite place to be.I laugh.Last week I get the letter...I love you but I'm not in love with you, mabye we can be good friends.....I write back saying I never loved him,how could I love a demon...telling him I know what he is-and that the next time he picks his victim he should do more research.That I am him to an extent...only older and wiser,and the game is over. Checkmate,Queen takes King.
    ReplyDelete
  60. I have a code.
    Its nessicary. Without it i would truly be a monster.
    I don't feel compelled to follow the guidelines set by society because i find them lacking and contradictory. I may not feel guilt, i might be completely incapable of "putting myself in ther shoes" but that doesn't mean i'm not honorable.
    I have written my own morality code, better and more precise than societies.
    I won't write it all but i'll give you an example. Killing is ok in certain circumstances. If i feel the person deserve to die then i have no problems removing them. But i would never even consider cheating on a parnter. Never. In fact those that do deserve death. Why do i feel like this? Not because i care about their feelings, thats irrelievant but i find the contradictory nature of humanity disgusting. Cheating means that not only do you not care about or respect your parnter but you are actually getting off on their misery. Who's the sick fuck now?
    If all i had to do to gain my life's dreams was to kill someone, in the majority of cases i'd do it. If it was a stranger i wouldn't even hesitate. An aquantince, i'd think about it. A friend, i'd think about it harder. A family member, probably not.
    Stealings ok if you can get away with it.
    Lying is second nature to me but sometimes i find the truth or a partial truth is much more powerful.
    Ok so basically three huge out of bounds things in my mind are
    Cheating, rape and paedophilia.
    Those are three things i would never do. Because my code prevents it. And there are no exceptions, no ifs, buts and maybes. Those are the rules, my rules and i physcially can't break them.

    So my point is that not all socio/psychopaths out there are unthinking monsters that prey on the weak and innocent for their pleasure. I carefully consider and plan all my actions and words. Only in my head does the endless and violent turmoil rage. But through stregth of will and my code i can keep it in check.
    ReplyDelete
  61. I have a code.
    Its nessicary. Without it i would truly be a monster.
    I don't feel compelled to follow the guidelines set by society because i find them lacking and contradictory. I may not feel guilt, i might be completely incapable of "putting myself in ther shoes" but that doesn't mean i'm not honorable.
    I have written my own morality code, better and more precise than societies.
    I won't write it all but i'll give you an example. Killing is ok in certain circumstances. If i feel the person deserve to die then i have no problems removing them. But i would never even consider cheating on a parnter. Never. In fact those that do deserve death. Why do i feel like this? Not because i care about their feelings, thats irrelievant but i find the contradictory nature of humanity disgusting. Cheating means that not only do you not care about or respect your parnter but you are actually getting off on their misery. Who's the sick fuck now?
    If all i had to do to gain my life's dreams was to kill someone, in the majority of cases i'd do it. If it was a stranger i wouldn't even hesitate. An aquantince, i'd think about it. A friend, i'd think about it harder. A family member, probably not.
    Stealings ok if you can get away with it.
    Lying is second nature to me but sometimes i find the truth or a partial truth is much more powerful.
    Ok so basically three huge out of bounds things in my mind are
    Cheating, rape and paedophilia.
    Those are three things i would never do. Because my code prevents it. And there are no exceptions, no ifs, buts and maybes. Those are the rules, my rules and i physcially can't break them.

    So my point is that not all socio/psychopaths out there are unthinking monsters that prey on the weak and innocent for their pleasure. I carefully consider and plan all my actions and words. Only in my head does the endless and violent turmoil rage. But through stregth of will and my code i can keep it in check.
    ReplyDelete
  62. justabadpenny said:

    “I wont be sleeping with anyone without telling her for sure, my point was simply that i see the 'i am gonna tell you the truth when all it will do is hurt you cause i feel guilty' as a hugely selfish thing?

    i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason.”

    You’re exercising a major flaw in logic. Cheating (breaking your word in a supposedly monogamous relationship) is the action that hurts her. Choosing to keep it a secret is deception. It’s like the president wiretapping citizens: the wiretap is what hurts the people; if he’s a sociopath he might misunderstand the revelation as the time where hurt is caused, because that’s where he observes the emotional reaction; but choosing to avoid that revelation is a HUGELY SELFISH act of deception that also hurts the people.

    In other words, you are off by at least 90 degrees. It’s as if you boiled a frog slowly and you claimed you hadn’t hurt it because it didn’t react. (Frogs do jump out of boiling water regardless, but just follow the metaphor as it’s commonly understood.) You are interpreting hurt from a sociopathic perspective. Hurt isn’t caused when you see a reaction, that’s just the moment of clarity when your victim realizes the implications of your actions. You need to understand that the hurt started before you chose the path of deception, and choosing to lie about it (even by omission) is just another way to hurt your wife. I think it’s noble and considerate of you to be honest about your perspective of her, but you need to understand which action causes the hurt and which action merely inflames it by postponing the emotional reaction.

    “today i would say i have been able to keep from causing serious harm even when they have done things that would push most people over the edge”

    I am finding out in the comments across this blog that many sociopaths have an inaccurate perception of “most people”’s pain thresholds, perspectives, motivations and ethics. If you admit that you suffer from a condition characterized by lacking theory of mind, logically you must concede that you are unable to gauge the species-wide baseline for sociopathic reactions and behaviors, and you should seek to understand/explain yourself by your own metric, not by an imaginary conception of others that is probably dangerously inaccurate.
    ReplyDelete
  63. sociogirl said:

    “people do things because they get something out of it.”

    This arrogance drives me nuts. You don’t speak for everyone. Don’t say “people” (implying “all” or “most people”) when you mean “sociopaths”. That’s just a way to legitimize your destructive attitude by blaming human nature. It may be YOUR nature, and that’s fine, but don’t foist it on the rest of us just because you want to avoid responsibility while reaping the benefits of telling yourself you’re opening up to the world.

    “i pretty much whatever i have done to hurt you, youprobably deserved whether it be your stupidity, your weakness or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.”

    That’s utter garbage and I hope you know it. You are blaming others for your own weaknesses. Yes, your need to “mind fuck someone” is a weakness and it seems to be controlling you, unless you are misrepresenting yourself. You claim your victims “deserved it” but that is clearly only true according to your arrogant need to justify your irrational, irresponsible, destructive and sickening behavior. For example, people other than sociopaths (even autistics and aspies who would be difficult to describe as empathic) generally use the term “wrong place at the wrong time” to note that the person did NOT deserve to be victimized, but was a victim of circumstance. You are turning this concept around as a scapegoat for your malice. If you are so deeply controlled by your hateful urges, you should do the world a favor and victimize yourself instead of others, or have yourself committed. I promise you, you deserve it for your weakness and closed-mindedness (the latter being a common form of stupidity). Also, as an unrepentant victimizer in a world dominated by empathy and agreed-upon ethical exchanges, you are clearly in “the wrong place at the wrong time”.

    “i made my way into this particular group for one person and use the others in the group to toy with this one person.”

    You are sick, and I mean that both in the literal sense and in the sense of moral judgment. I hope you find the strength to reveal yourself to, well, yourself, and to someone who will understand you. (In your comments asserting the impossibility of such acceptance, I think you are again falling prey to the sociopath’s tendency to underestimate the empathy of empaths.) Failing all that, I hope you suffer terribly for your violence.
    ReplyDelete
  64. Rich said:

    “I'm well aware this may all be a part of the game for her. However, emotionally I checked out. I don't like any aspect of her, I can't forgive her, I don't trust her and I watch her every move/word/action like a hawk. But I swore a personal oath to be by her side always. If I can help her by being in her life I will, if I have to leave to help her understand a point then I will. But unlike half my family I do not abandon those I make commitments to. “

    That’s your problem, right there. You “want this relationship to work out”, but you can’t see that it is inherently doomed. The relationship will never work if all of this is true. You need to deal with your abandonment issues instead of victimizing yourself and her by locking yourselves in a destructive relationship that is intent on undermining yourself. Don’t you see the contradiction between your insistence on staying by her side despite it eating away at your soul, and your insistence that she must change “if this relationship will work”? If you don’t see it, look harder. Really. All you are doing is hurting yourself and her. You should stop if you care at all about yourself, her or any future children that you personally will have. You need to realize that you are on the path to being directly responsible for your children’s lifetimes of pain and misery. It will be your fault for bringing them into a loveless (spiteful, hateful) marriage and forcing a sociopathic mother upon them. I hate to be so harsh, but it seems necessary.
    ReplyDelete
  65. Zhawq said:

    “Did you know there's being research done with the purpose of doing away with our very existence?”

    You make that sound really sinister, but I bet you mean that researchers are trying to find out what makes people sociopathic and how it can be avoided, which is not only benign, but would probably be a great relief to potential sociopaths and everyone else too. Especially if it turns out to be as simple as a series of environmental variables.

    “I dare say that's pretty hostile despite the civil tone it is being communicated in, and it would push any minority into a defensive position, no?”

    No. I would love to see a cure for autism. I consider such research to be essential to my well-being. You make it sound like researchers are trying to find a chemical weapon that will kill you all. Your opposition to research that could save entire generations from a whole lot of pain and a whole lot of crimes is the sinister position, since you want millions to suffer just to stoke your ego as a special little flower.

    Kronos said:

    “Who's the sick fuck now?”

    The person who kills someone for making a mistake, yet considers himself morally superior, is the sick fuck.

    “If all i had to do to gain my life's dreams was to kill someone, in the majority of cases i'd do it. If it was a stranger i wouldn't even hesitate. An aquantince, i'd think about it. A friend, i'd think about it harder. ... So my point is that not all socio/psychopaths out there are unthinking monsters that prey on the weak and innocent for their pleasure.”

    Wow, who’s following a contradictory set of morals now? See, this is what makes people want to lock sociopaths up. You’re convinced that your twisted morality is unimpeachable; you’re so certain of this that you would kill without hesitation. Yet, you also want us to believe that you’re not a monster that preys on the weak and innocent for your pleasure - at the very same time that you describe killing the weak and innocent for your pleasure.

    “Only in my head does the endless and violent turmoil rage. But through stregth of will and my code i can keep it in check.”

    You have such a high opinion of yourself, but you can’t even see how being willing to kill someone and ruin their family is far from “keeping it in check”. You’re so headstrong that you’ve decided you’re good enough to stop from cheating on someone (gee, isn’t that nice) but it’s fine if you kill someone. No, you need serious help. No one person is perfect. You strike me as needing professional help to reevaluate your code of ethics and make sure you stick to it. You probably think you’re above that, but nobody is.
    ReplyDelete
  66. I'm 21 years old and after sufferng from severe social axiety for years, I noticed that recently I'm exhibting the common traits of a sociopath. I no longer feel love or empathy inside of me.

    I briefly contemplated suicide as the loss of those feelings is truly torturous. However, as I don't want to give up nor lay that on my family, I'll give it a shot.

    I now find that tv and music are nice only as distractions, but I feel totally disconnected from it. I feel disinterested in most any form of recreational activity. I'm positive that I'm now a sociopath.

    I'm curious, how do you guys feel about art, music, movies, etc. Does it do anything for you?

    I recently watched the Hangover and kept a straight face throughout the entire movie. I'm just new at this so I'm looking for advice.
    ReplyDelete
  67. @Anonymous 10:58AM

    LOL! Can't you see through all of this BS?
    ME, Zhawq, Kronos, and most others are works of fiction dreamed up by a common everyday narcissists at best! They probably waste the rest of the day playing video games when not blogging.
    ReplyDelete
  68. He he love your conclusion, Anon. Bravo!
    ReplyDelete
  69. Roflmao. I love this blog, hats off to you good sir for writing solid posts and blogging material.

    That's not the best part though, the best part is all the "Sociopath wannabes."

    Zomg being a Sociopath and not feeling regular human guilt is cool and strong! It's like a super power! There sure are a lot of insecure people here.

    Demonstration? of course!

    "i just dont get hurting people for no reason, i see perfectly doing it for a reason"

    You my friend are not a "Sociopath". Hurting people is fun, that's the reason. It's enjoyable to see them squirm in and out of their foolish little situations like worms crawling from a bird.

    It's enjoyable to take months and even years of subtle interactions to completely re-direct a persons life agenda (especially into the ground if they hated you at first or simply failed to acknowledge your unending awesomeness).

    It's fun to create co-dependence in previously very independent people.

    It's ENJOYABLE, ok? That's the reason. Actions are calculated, life goes on but in the end this is fun.
    ReplyDelete
  70. ======================

    Want to know how to break up with a sociopath?

    Make it incredibly inconvenient for them to be with you, They will leave for a better target if they aren't upset you aren't their toy anymore. Depending on their level of intelligence you will always be their toy so long as you are in contact with them.

    ======================

    I find it interesting that our society is so fucked up that we have mass numbers of insecure people worshipping people that common science considers sick.

    Oh, one more thing. Sociopaths aren't hellbent on gaining power. They are hellbent on gaining enough power in life for them to continue having their fill undeterred. Understand?

    I like fucking with dumb (and sometimes intelligent) women who slowly degrade themselves into providing everything I want from them. I have enough money to live my own life and never need shit from anybody, but what the fuck is the fun in that?

    I rather have a woman buy me a car for my birthday while I see what happens when I purposefully forget hers. I construct myself to be "everything she's ever wanted" and so she is "in love" and then I do things that blatantly show I do not give a shit about her.

    I watch while her head spins trying to put the two together and it's absolutely hilarious. When she gives me a hard time I act like a sick puppy dog who loves her and she forgives me. I then move on to ignoring her (until I want something).

    Eventually the emotionally wounded bitch wises up and makes this whole big break up drama.

    These recent years though I've learned to get her friends/family on my side as soon as possible. Women do not break up with you if their friends and family love you.

    It's hilarious to watch as her family and friends agree with you as you mind fuck her in every aspect of her life until she no longer wants to live. Then when you've gotten everything you think you will get you move on.

    This one time I actually had my girlfriends (or ex I should say) friend come to me and start a relationship with me because I was "too good for that stupid whiney whore who couldn't possibly understand a good man like you".

    Perfect, absolutely hilarious, mountains of enjoyment.

    See, sociopaths DO feel. lol

    Oh and, I don't feel bad for how I am or who I am. I was born this way and it's not my fault someone hasn't killed me yet. The only loneliness I feel is the constant pain of being surrounded by people I consider less than myself.

    I am in pure delight when I find an intelligent and capable peer.
    ReplyDelete
  71. ================================

    Oh and on cheating? Want more examples?
    ================================

    My girlfriend who at the time was absolutely head over heels in love with me at the time had dying grand parents.

    She would visit them on some weekends and the drive was long. I had gone once with her already and though she begged me to go again I told her I had work to do.

    I spent the weekend fucking one of her "friends" who had been wanting me since the day she met me. I guess it pays to be good looking and subtly flirtatious.

    She visited a few more weekends until her grand parents died. We continued fucking almost every time she was down there and the other girl excused her guilt by having a conversation about how much of a bitch my GF was to her in high school.

    Gotta love how women can excuse anything with the simplest slights.

    When the boring ass funeral came around for both her grand parents (one died of heart failure, the other of heart disease... which is, missing the person who died). I "received a call from work" and was back at her friends house doing her.

    That's your answer to cheating. Make sure the bitch is clean though.

    Oh and since there was no evidence of me fucking or fooling around with said friend but tons of text messages of her hitting on me...

    I just deleted a few here and there, remade a few online chats and whammo came to my girlfriend and told her her friend had been hitting on me and I was "afraid to tell her because I knew she would believe her friend over me"

    My girlfriend confronts her friend, she spills the beans on our affair and of course my girlfriend believes me. The girl had NO excuse for not being at the funeral and I was painted as the hero that always tries to be there for her even though I have a really demanding job.

    Perfectly executed.

    Oh and... we are still together.

    :-)
    ReplyDelete
  72. Why do ppl think sociopaths don't feel emotion... we feel emotion we just live in a different reality that the rest, this reality doesn't allow to feel things the same way or understand how to care... we would be interested in music or art or many other things if we had no emotion.
    Even our cousins psychopaths have emotions... they just process them on a vastly different playing field.
    ReplyDelete
  73. LaughingBladesAug 29, 2011 04:44 PM
    When I was a young adult I learned the value of logic, philosophy, and ethics and learned the importance of adopting an ethical framework.

    I am basically a reciprocal consequentialist, as long as people respect my well being and vested interests I will respect their own, and I won't harm others unless they intend to harm me in some way.
    ReplyDelete
  74. LaughingBladesAug 29, 2011 04:55 PM
    I suspect the anonymous story about his cheating affair is a fabrication from a sociopath wannabe, but if true it doesn't surprise me since some sociopaths are malignant narcissists and "empaths" as this blog calls them will believe and justify anything to themselves.

    The presented behavior does constitute a breach of trust and reckless behavior, and really isn't a very good answer to cheating.
    ReplyDelete
  75. Everyone has sociopathic traits. The people who truly do not are the suckers in life.
    ReplyDelete
  76. Well, logically, it benefits us to fit in and I've found that acting (relatively) good simply streamlines that process. I live with that inherent evil(?) streak but have found that I can use my devious talents for the good of the many and the satisfaction level remains the same.
    ReplyDelete
  77. I'm not a sociopath, and I don't really want to be. But I don't judge people for things they can't control. However, I do think sociopaths (like all people) have a choice.
    1) they can lie, cheat, steal and generally take advantage of people.
    2) while they may not be able to actually empathize with other people, they can develop some sort of ethical code for interacting with others. In this way, they can easily become decent human beings.

    Sadly, I see a lot of socios (and socio wannabes) embrace option 1 on this website. The forum is full of people trading cruel stories about theur various conquests. They see non-sociopathic humans (empaths, narcissits, etc.) as "lesser creatures" who are blinded by emotions. This view of other people is pretty terrible, and it generally reinforces the stereotypical view that sociopaths are evil and can't be reformed. That's unfortunate b/c it causes empaths to demonize sociopaths, and it alienates the sociopaths who do wish to be decent people. I can't blame you sociopaths for keeping your true selves a secret. Why wpuld you want to risk persecution?

    Having said that though, I do think the "good sociopaths" owe it to themselves and the rest of us to distance
    themselves from the "bad sociopaths". The good sociopaths out there have a unique perspective on life, and it's worth learning more about it. You're fellow humans, and whether you empathize with others is really irrelevant. The point is just that you live decent lives and contribute to society. Morals and values are complicated, and whether we're empaths or sociopaths, we may be able to learn something from each other.

    Do any socios out there feel the same way? Which of you feels a need to be "good"? Which of you tries to treat other people with respect? Do any of you have any thoughts on this subject?
    ReplyDelete
  78. Just wondering. Can a sociopath be deluded enough to think that they are "normal", not realizing what they are? Believing that they have done no wrong?
    ReplyDelete
  79. Yes, I live with one... I'm sure of it - he lies and cheats, but when he's at home with me he's as good as gold. He sees himself as a very good person. When I've confrontd him with his lying, cheating ways his line is: "I didn't mean to hurt you". And I kind of believe him. He definitely subscribes to the LOVE is a VERB theory. "Look at all that I do for you. Look at all that I've give to you. These actions show that I love you!!" He is sooo afraid to look at himself that he is deluded into believing that he's a GOOD person who screws up now and then. "I'm not perfect - no one is! It's not like a KILLED someone!" And then he turns the attack onto me. I'm getting so very tired of it. I really believed that he could change... I was wrong.
    ReplyDelete
  80. Please don't discount those of us who are perfectly capable of determining what the 'right' thing to do is, and do it because we simply can't be bothered to do what we really want. Don't forget how much work goes into covering your tracks, keeping what you say internally consistent, and generally keeping non-socios off of our backs.

    In short, maximizing efficiency of effort.
    ReplyDelete
  81. Political parties and religious groups do not gain followers and believers by having a great moral cause. They gain loyal legions by generating the most powerful emotion of all:fear. Followers do what their Pastor tells them because they fear they will go to hell. Conservatives follow the GOP because they fear Obama. Fear is an emotion that clouds judgement and these groups know it. It is a powerful tactic. Most, if not all of the top leaders of both religious and political parties are themselves sociopaths. As you know, M.E., there are plenty of weak and fearful people to do your bidding. These "followers" are those people. Just look at the Tea Party. Their motivation is pure fear.
    ReplyDelete
  82. Gratification and failure seems the same and good and bad. I like gratification, and I don't like failure.

    I suppose someone who does not have sociopath like characteristics would like good, and not like bad. I could be off in my comparisons, however.
    ReplyDelete
  83. You forgot to mention in the article that a sociopath is not bound by his/ her code. The code is only/ mostly there to help blending in. It is frequently broken (by most, if not all sociopaths) and of cause a sociopath won't feel bad for having broken it.

    Okay, so maybe this isn't true for all sociopaths. Kroner said sth about physically not being able to break his code. Now while I think that's bullshit, he may have over dramatized his answer and might actually almost never break his code.

    Personally, I don't yet have a code, but I blend in just fine anyways, most of the time that is.

    In the end any absolute and/ or generalized statement is partially wrong as sociopathy is (or so I believe) more of a spectrum disorder than anything else.
    ReplyDelete

.

Comments are unmoderated. Blog owner is not responsible for third party content. By leaving comments on the blog, commenters give license to the blog owner to reprint attributed comments in any form.