Thursday, February 24, 2011

Guest post: Pick-up artists and sociopathy

It occurred to me while reading your posts that the pick-up artist (PUA) community essentially teaches "normal" people sociopathic behavior, or at least something really similar. They borrow heavily from theoretical frameworks like neuro-linguistic programming and other areas of psychology/psychotherapy in order to systematize the art of manipulating and seducing women. As an adjunct, there's also a body of concepts dedicated exclusively to disarming any male competition/protectors/significant others. Here's a slice of the mental flowchart involved in something like Bait-Hook-Reel-Release theory:

"A Hook is when she genuinely answers a question, complies, or responds to the artist’s DHV [demonstration of higher value] with an IOI [indicator of interest]. If she is not hooked, neg [throw a light backhanded compliment] and roll off [start to break away to bait them into chasing you]." (http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/bait-hook-reel-release-bhrr/)

As you can probably tell, the community is blighted by a juvenile obsession with its own jargon, BUT many of the core concepts are field tested and sound. One big side effect of becoming proficient at pick-up is that you come to see people as predictable, exploitable, and inferior systems--mere concatenations of switches to be flipped before some utility can be produced. Unsurprisingly, charges of teaching sociopathy are not unheard of from within the PUA community:

"The whole thing is set up to make you view women as unreal, and merely as objects for your own sexual gratification and validation. People you aren't sexually interested in are supposed to only register as possible obstacles to using a girl for sex, if they register at all. . . . So you're always leading on chicks you aren't interested in, just to "practice" or "socially proof" yourself, or maybe use her as a gateway to her friends?" (http://www.puahate.com/showthread.php?t=6051)

If you haven't already, I can recommend reading "The Game" by Neil Strauss for an entertaining look into the minds of both fledgling and veteran pick-up artists. Because of the notable similarities between the methods/goals of pick-up and sociopathic behavior, it might be useful (and easy) for sociopaths to add some PUA tools to their arsenal. My apologies if this is already quite obvious to you--I didn't see much writing on the subject on your blog, so I figured it couldn't hurt to e-mail you about it.

Best,

Aspiring Sociopath

106 comments:

  1. I can see many future crow muggings for peanuts because of this bright guy...

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  2. I was refering to the guy in the video from the first anonymous.

    This "Aspiring Sociopath" is also bright, but he's just stuck on peanut thoughts.

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  3. The self-styled storytellers (oops, I mean, coaches) are the main winners within the covert sexual coercion cults (oops, I mean, seduction communities) in my opinion.

    Yes, the aims and techniques demean, diminish, and objectify women as sexual playthings for profit as so much of our culture does - rating *anyone* on a 1-to-10 scale is abhorrent.

    But by embracing the codified artifice, and at the very least *appearing* to like having personal power over women more than they like women, they're also dehumanising themselves.

    Of course this isn't a problem for sociopaths, or other predatory types, who are successful in inducing desire and unaffected by their exploitative reputation preceding them – yet what becomes of the men, including sociopaths, who are genuinely hapless with women and still largely unsuccessful after their 'training'?

    Pushed to date for the most part out of their league by cult-of-personality coaches (and mass media) using over-hyped 'guaranteed' techniques, I can't help but feel that continued rejection in a climate of keeping score leads some men to engage in much spiteful misogyny – eventually leading them to become the passive-aggressive 'nice guy' many women are wary of or much worse.

    I'd wager there are a lot of men out there unskilfully 'negging' women wondering why the 'stuck up bitches' *still* won't give them the time of day. Can anyone say exit counselling and deprogramming?

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  4. 'Aspiring Sociopath.' I rest my case.
    LOL-fest of a post today.

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  5. B o r i n g ... Aspiring sociopath is a song by atmosphere.

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  6. YEAH BITCHES !! i am a PUG who fucks SHBs with sweet T&A in 3S on the spot cos i am HV with a HD and ive read TFM. wanna LR ?? MCDS 4 eNEGma4life!! no FUGs WARPIGs or VCs !!! :D

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  7. B o r i n g ... Aspiring sociopath is a song by atmosphere.

    This one's for you, Adam.

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  8. In the game of love and lust. Hatred will ultimately not satisfy. They have missed the Game. Missed the juice.
    Hatred is better used in war.

    Both genders will end up in rehap facilities and thus create society damage. Love is the glue. Companionship the vehicle.

    Awesome post. Wish I could post more in the discussion. Leaving town to search for lustful fun.

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  9. This is ridiculous.

    Why must everything involving lying and manipulating be compared to sociopathy, here? I mean, seriously, normal folk can be bastards to.

    It's as if some of the people that like to talk here forget that the rest of the world are mostly bastards too.

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  10. *My point being, show something interesting about it. not chumps that want to be the big bad wolf of the bedroom. Those guys are pathetic if they can't get with someone unless they talk to coaches... Ridiculous.

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    Replies
    1. TheNotablePath - didn't know you had a point.

      Delete
  11. "Those guys are pathetic if they can't get with someone unless they talk to coaches... Ridiculous."

    You need confidence to actually utilise thes tactics in a real life situation. I'd imagine that alot the guys who are into this PUA thing are socially akward and have trouble with women. I doubt a confident person would look for or need help. Coaching isn't going to do anything for a person without confidence so it's pointless for them.

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  12. I can't get it up for a woman whose views are boring.

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  13. Not all sociopaths are fucking charismatic, superficial charm means flattery and ass kissing but it never says charisma, charisma must be learned.

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  14. I mean, seriously, normal folk can be bastards to.

    So true.

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  15. Charisma is hardly a learned trait. I don't have to say anything when I walk in a room. Just my presence is enough. There's no way to teach that, because even I don't know why.

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  16. The SW epitome of the PUA^^ complete with disciples

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  17. Women like me no matter what. Even when I act like a little kid

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  18. Yeah but normal people feel bad when they act like bastards.

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  19. Charisma (which translates as "gift") is not a learned trait. You can't learn gifts.

    You either got it or you don't. Try to "learn" it and people will pick up on it and you will come across as pathetic and trying too hard.

    wv: runts

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  20. yeah agreed Medusa. It's transparent when you try.
    Women are not idiotic robots either.
    I saw an ep from the MTV PUA show. Quite frankly, if you go on that show to display how unseductive you are, that's your first problem there. Seductiveness is by definition about mystery and elusiveness...
    gosh.
    I think these people are just getting taken for a ride. They aren't gonna get anything but more rejection and bitterness.

    Just be yourself and find someone who likes the real you. (as real as real is).

    Those 'pros' make me laugh - one guy was all about dressing flamboyantly to create an 'in', a conversation piece. God, how lacking do you need to be for that.
    I don't mean to mock, but people should just stick to what they're good at.

    And if they want lessons from anyone, they should ask a hetero female, not an up his own ass guy.

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  21. women sould keep their mouths shut unless there is a dick inside.

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  22. Women don't have rights, even the goofballs have more of a say, after I saw an autopsy of a woman with a broom her vag, I lost all respect for them.

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  23. Some asshole guy must have stuck it up there.

    And you judge them all by that one?

    You don't deserve any respect but I'm sure some brilliant female will turn the tables onyour ass, unless your gay, not saying anythings wrong with that.

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  24. I am too much of a thinker, I need some time every so often to reconnect with my emotions otherwise my life is meaningless

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  25. Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick my buthole cunt

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  26. What's the difference between Kurt Cobain and John Bonham?
    It took 42 shots to kill Bonham.

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  27. I am too much of a thinker, I need some time every so often to reconnect with my emotions otherwise my life is meaningless
    yeah i hear that. it's good once in a while to just give in to an impulse, especially a destructive one. otherwise you are a robot.

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  28. ^ The creative guide to anti-social behavior. On your bookstands now. :)

    (20 percent discount on your next bail free with purchase.)

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  29. It's all shit. Some guys get all the girls and the others are left in the cold. There's no magic fucking book, or tricks people can give you. I will do off the wall shit just to amuse myself, but that's why I have no problem. I don't smell desperate. I'm around anyone for my general entertainment and I frankly dont give a fuck if people love me or hate me. If you hang out with me I will pass them all to you. I'm over random shags. It's all the same when you dip in anyway.
    One time when I was in my first rich phase I just got over a break up, so I had this upscale loft to myself. I would go on the balcony and smoke and drink till I was wasted in between playing Call Of Duty.
    These dancers came in from Brazil to do some show, and I remembered my ex girlfriend saying she met them and she told me they were from Brazil. They rented out three floor of apartments across the way.
    One day I was on my balcony and they were partying and waved to me. I waved back. This happened everyday for a week. I told my friends about it when they came over and they didnt believe me.
    My friend one day came over with this total loser. He was dogshit. Nothing going for him. Whiney little cunt complaining about life all the time. On cue the brazilians screamed over their railing. I came on the balcony with my friends and they yelled to come over. I told them we would be right there.
    This loser kept dragging his feet saying it might be a trick to play games with our head. I turned around and told him to shut the fuck up and grabbed his phone from his hand. I asked him how many birds phone numbers he had in his phone (this was what he boasted about all the time). He said tons. He tried to grab his phone and I told him to sit down or I would fuck him up. I went through his phone and started calling the girls up asking directly, "Want to fuck?", and when they said, "No" I would hang up. After five or six he started getting all poutty so I gave it back. I told him to not waste his time. If they don't want to fuck after a few days toss that cunts phone number.
    <1>

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  30. Narcs are at the top sociopaths are at the bottom, while you mongrels are out stealing from fruit stands, we are buying off companies.

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  31. We climbed over the wall to the brazilians spot. After wandering around we finally found them and they invited us in. They were a wild bunch. Tons of them, not just girls anymore either there were some gay looking guys playing guitars.
    I was all over the place. I was entertaining one group and would move over to the next. I had people laughing, I made them sing brazilian song, I would make 'cute' attempts to learn their language which I would fuck up on purpose.
    Meanwhile this wallflower loser was in the corner of the room by himself watching everything go down. Come on you fucking piker I told him.
    Finally I decided for a toast. I gave this loser the toasting rights since it would finally take him off the wall.
    Everyone gathered around and silence commenced. Everyone raised up their glasses, and this bloke says, "TO BIG DICKS!"
    .....................................................................................................................That's how long the silence was afterwards, as everyone just stared at him oddly. Thanks to his foolishness even I didnt get laid. I called it a night and went home.

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  32. awe the fucking spam filter

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  33. It was a great story too

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  34. U go Ukan. You've heard it all before from all the doubters, especially the girls. You know how it will all end even if they don't. They can take a piss at your words but they can't take you off their minds even the smart ones.

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  35. girl w giant tits and iqFebruary 24, 2011 at 6:04 PM

    How true. Until they replace you.

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  36. I want me and every other son of a bitch to make ourselves famous (or infamous) we can make it happen, and i don't mean petty three murder infamous that is small time.

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  37. I'll be sitting in a cell with nothing to do but i won't care because I'll be the topic of everyones conversations, I'll be splashed all over the news.

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  38. giant tits,

    You don't get it, we just wanna fuck you, not marry you. We already know what respect means to a woman an how much we can count on that

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  39. Charlie Sheen sounds like UKan today.

    It's spectacular.

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  40. lol, is that you Ukan at 5.48?
    yeah, you are indeed made of lush....~

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  41. Sheen is a nutball, a very charming nutball. I don't give many people my empathy but i hope charlie sorts himself out.

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  42. Thanks to his foolishness even I didnt get laid.

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  43. notme,
    the bambi is really how i imagine you. so much better than the midget faced kitty.

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  44. giant tits actually might fuck you, anon 6:39. Because she is horney.

    Or she may just like smelling your scent for fun. If it ain't sexy, she'll just enjoy watching you salivate.

    Or not.

    Giant tits is not good for your self esteem.

    Lower your standards and you'll feel better about yourself.

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  45. UKan,
    if for some odd reason you get in jail for a long long term, please send us your photo, face and full body. I am curious.

    Same goes to Notable. I really am curious to see Notable's definition of baby face.

    Here is my ode to you both:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viACqjxMRrs&feature=relmfu

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  46. to all the socios who can't score easily:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8trKFePpnvk

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  47. bahaha midget faced kitty??? heyyyyy you meany. That's a persian chinchilla, the most beautiful cat in all the universe.
    :P

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  48. "Just be yourself and find someone who likes the real you. (as real as real is). "

    I had to wipe the whiskey spittle off my keyboard and catch my breath.

    Thanks for the video Anonymous. You're my favorite secret valentine.

    Boring damn day today at SW. I had a fantastic day at work. My boss laid off the people I suggested, gave me a raise and a new client, and then treated me out to dinner.

    At least he was a gentlemen and my innocence is intact.

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  49. The real you is the cool you.

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  50. Socios who can't score easily..does that exist? They score without even intending to. Biology still dictates more than any self image mechanisms can imagine. Those who can't score easily can learn to mimic if motivated enough and strangely,(or not)it works. Keeping the act going, well thats another thing.

    I'm speculating its got something to do disposability and the primordial female compulsion to not miss out on anything even if it's bad and have short shelve lives. All it needs is for the rules of plausible deniability to be upheld. And the men who innately knows (or diligently learns with enough discipline) how to work those switches gets the pudding for the night

    TLDR; The rebellion continues...

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  51. Anon 8:34 and 8:39.

    Thank you!

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  52. Study says that narcissists are more prone to violence than sociopaths.

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  53. my cats fuck each other and they're fixed.

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  54. 'They score without even intending to'
    yup.
    the 'pudding'. lol Gag, you funny. that's seductive. hehe


    lol, why did you find my comment funny exactly Notable?

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  55. because he knows how to score, and he just witnessed it

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  56. Or light yourself on fire. Whatever you like

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  57. a crude proposition in the form of a question, oh the sexy incongruity of it all.

    followed by an invitation to kill myself?

    Wha? You are hot! You're killing me with confusion...

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  58. i hope you will sleep very well tonight.

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  59. What can I say? I love venison

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  60. why thank you 10.13, I shall try.

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  61. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  62. By the way Gag, I find your intelligence and modesty very intriguing.
    That's what i mean by being true to yourself.

    hey aspie, where's the music gone?

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  63. Hmmm..

    I do often wonder whats in the can myself..but thanks anyways notme;P

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  64. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  65. Fuck every facebooker piece of shit, shallow vain idiots should be shot.

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  66. i was just being honest Gag.

    aspie, good song, i'm listening to it now.

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  67. Aspie you wouldn't be safe either if I had my way I'd eliminate every aspie. Half retarded fucks.

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  68. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  69. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtkSTmOoBCQ

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  70. I can say anything I want about you and not feel bad I have no conscience, I beat the highest score on the pclr and I'm an animal abuser, I've been lying the whole time saying I hate aspies. You know why? That's right. I'm a pathological liar I lie all the time, it's easy because I don't feel any emotion. I have a portrait of every serial killer on my back, the tattoo guy was amazed at how much pain I could endure, so he gave me the nick name stealth hawk.

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  71. 10:56

    ---

    money shot

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  72. Notme lick my dirty asscheeks you slut

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  73. Your cheeks are dirty? Or your crack?

    You unsanitary cretin.

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  74. Filthy people on this blog. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

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  75. and i never known a girl like you before

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  76. Guess what, Mom and Dad! I'm borderline!

    No one knows who I am so I just wanted to announce that. I kept thinking I was a sociopath, but I was just going through a stage. ("Gee, this kind of sounds like me. I'm somewhat amoral and I don't make life plans well. Viola! It's my new diagnosis!)

    I kind of knew it before. But I forgot. :D No attention span to speak of.

    I can't tell if I'm relieved or disappointed. I think I learned a lot from reading this blog though: that much I know.

    I love you all. Sorry if I was occasionally snarky.

    I'm going to go cry now. Anonymously.

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  77. Beeper, will you speak about companion love and/or loneliness? Or is that Notable's specialty?

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  78. Don't ask Note, Beeper/anon. I don't think socios get lonely. They always have something on their horizon to keep them busy.

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  79. No one is out there. Think for yourself, Anon 2:39

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  80. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KynpC1e9I9E&feature=fvwrel

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  81. another great Beatles song:

    ATU

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  82. What has getting your girlfriend pregnant and locking your keys in the car got in common?

    Both problems can be easily fixed with a coat hanger.

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  83. Hi. I'm a narcissistic, schizoid, schizophrenic, avoident, BPD, paranoid, histrionic, OCD, passive aggressive psychopath.

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  84. Charles Manson has every Pd ever invented.

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  85. but passive aggressive is beneath me.

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  86. It is only about 10 people a year who get killed by someone with an identifiable mental illness. These people are usually paranoid schizophrenics.

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  87. Why is narcissism so attractive?

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  88. Only a narcissist would say that.

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  89. Never been interested in dating and sex.

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  90. 'Wet' is not interested in sex... so why are you wet, lol?

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  91. All this talk of normality is confusing to me...isn't it just what we have created to serve our own diluted notion of morality and higher conscience? No one can say why one does and another doesn't. It just is and more often then not the weak fall to the strong, whether there tactics are pious or shady as hell.

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  92. Normality is an optical illusion.
    Tactics equals game.
    Whether pious or shady, survival always wins.

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  93. "Normality is an optical illusion.
    Tactics equals game.
    Whether pious or shady, survival always wins."

    From computer strategy games?

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  94. How interesting the PUAs are called "sociopaths" for WINNING a "game" that WOMEN designed. It's like the casinos who want people gambling, just not winning the way the card-counters did. Men should take note.

    Your argument falls apart for one simple reason: you don't have a better alternative for men. Spare me the "be yourself" or "be good-looking/successful etc." Musical chairs is such that someone is still going to be standing when the music stops. What about *these* men? Not the ones women want, but the ones who have no real hope with women, yet who are told to behave as if they did?

    Moreover, since these PUAs got horrible results before becoming PUAs, it's obvious their behavior is viewed favorably by women. If the "best man wins" like we want to believe, these methods wouldn't work, and men wouldn't adopt them.

    It also seems that ANY man who promotes ANY method for getting women, no matter how strong it may be, is lumped into this category. Even if one accepts that PUA behavior is sociopathic, that raises the larger issue of why women reward it, which is related to why men resort to it.

    The other problem is that women want to be selfish and dishonest in relationships, yet insist on DISCUSSING them to the point where any logical debate will lead to the concolusion that women are selfish and dishonest, though most women will either pull rank, throw a tantrum, or just shut down the debate before it gets to that point.

    Until you can come up with a better way for formerly decent men to get laid, other than advising them to settle for what they can get, or to simply not want what they can get as a PUA, your cries will fall on deaf ears.

    Ray Gordon
    "Bettor Off Single: Why Commitment Is A Bad Gamble For Men."

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  95. Back in 1998, the true beginning of the seduction community, no one school was dominant. The "sociopathic" techniques caught fire the most becuase they were the most effective.

    What's interesting is that the consumers of PUA products often made the same stupid, narcissistic mistakes hot women make when choosing men, when they chose which products to buy, including mistaking bullying for strength, noise for confidence, etc.

    I have a saying on why I don't give dating advice to women: "I can't teach someone who thinks they know more than me." That's the problem with all of this. If I told you guys to bet a horse (like my recent futures bet of Alpha in the Kentucky Derby), you might listen to me or you might not, but unless you're a hardcore horseplayer, you'd assume I was somewhat knowledgeable, and had a good reason for my opinoin. With dating advice, however, you'd just judge what I said against what you already thought you know, and would not be open to learning anything.

    Ray Godon
    Bettor Off Singole: Why Commitment Is A Bad Gamble For Men (it's free)
    http://www.toosmarttofail.com/bos.pdf

    Here's an excerpt about the Seduction Community's dark side. That consumers were buying from my competitors even while witnessing this explains better than I ever could why men are screwed when it comes to women:

    http://www.toosmarttofail.com/puatruths.pdf

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  96. I ran across this post at random but am surprised that most people still see the PUA community through the lens of the old school Win-Lose style of "Game" (e.g.-Mystery Method, Speed Seduction, etc.). Those styles promoted ways of basically tricking women into bed and were aimed at insecure or ego-driven guys. I agree that it was a con-game. The thing is that almost all of the reputable coaches and respected members of the community have come to the conclusion that being direct and honest with women is not only ethical but more effective. Win-Win. Nowadays it's more about becoming a better person and not all of the childish BS of the past. BTW - I don't think the community ever attracted many true sociopaths because they seem to be extremely good with women (short term) by their very nature. Also...being a "nice guy" is considered by most coaches to be highly manipulative because guys are usually just kissing a girls ass in an effort to make her feel that she owes them something in return (Just thought I'd throw that in). So ladies...PUAs are not out to "Get" you & Guys...ALWAYS be a Gentleman & NOT a kiss-ass.

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