Monday, August 31, 2015

The Courage Game

I have historically alternated between trying to understand how I work and trying to understand how the world works or what my place in the world is. When I first started the blog, it was trying to understand myself. After a few years, it went back to the world. After the book was published, it went back to myself again -- this time with the help of an aggressive therapist. Now, I have a sense that I should sort of move on from this simple but comfortable and relatively safe life I have carved out for myself post book publication and trashing much of my previous life. I feel like my gaze has been slowly turning outward, and sometimes in some somewhat dispiriting ways.

This was an interesting video about a 12 year old boy who came out as being gay to his friends. Even in this day in age, that didn't go over well. Probably of most interest to me and people that come here is how he describes how society turned on him, how he reacted to the social ostracization. Starting around 4:20, he talks about how his peers chose to shame him, and how he withdrew as much as he could from society, how he desperately wished he was normal. The most poignant quote from him for me, though, was "I would always want to go to sleep and like never wake up you know because I just didn't want to deal with what like society had come to, and I thought, nothing would ever get better." He eventually stumbles upon a youtube video of an interview openly gay professional lacrosse player from a decade ago, and they strike up a mentorship. At the end, his mentor infers that one day the boy will be able to perform a similar role for other boys in similar circumstances.

I have felt what this little boy has, the feeling that every time you wake up one of the first things you think of is what type of world this is that you are waking up to -- where you don't want to deal with what society has come to. Sometimes I think about other sort of sociopaths that have gone public about their status (oddly only older males?) and how well they seem to be doing. I wonder why things seem more ok for them and their lives than they do for me -- why people don't seem to be as eager to witch hunt or to ostracize or to shame them as they seem to do for me. I could come up with a list of reasons (and some of you may feel the need to tell me why it's my fault), but could anyone of those reasons really explain the drastic difference between one man's and the others? I sort of don't want to believe it, because if I do the world will seem more arbitrary to me, although it may seem less arbitrary to others to want to blame victims, e.g. the rape victim for leading men on or dressing provocatively or putting herself in those situations, or the gay hate crime victim for rubbing it in people's faces. I understand the urge to blame the victim, because if you've never experienced victimization like this, you want to believe that you never will as long as you make all of the "right" choices in life.

But I guess the real answer is that there probably isn't an explanation for who gets victimized and who doesn't, or it's just so complicated. Why does this little boy get ostracized when so many other other young people nowadays have no problem coming out? And if you tried to think about how people would react all of the time to your honest expressions of identity, they would cease to be honest expressions of your identity. And as much as you can try to plan for the right moment and the right way and balance all of the competing interests and variables, everything can go wrong quite easily, like Gettysburg for the South. But in social situations like this, not only is there a large degree of risk and uncertainty and any planned or unplanned social maneuvering like a coming out, there's also a large degree of irrationality.

And I guess that is what I am actually really grateful for, for the opportunity to finally understand what it feels like to go through something a little like this boy did. I understand better now what it must feel like to be an abused spouse, where everything can seem like it's going fine and suddenly for some reason (but really no reason, or no rational reason, or not any reason that could be a reasonable response to the alleged trigger), you are something that is so reviled that you deserve to be treated like human garbage. It reminds me a little of an interview I watched with a youngish black man who had been raised by white parents and never really experienced the worst of racism in his sheltered middle class community until one night he was pulled over by police who proceeded to pull him out of the car, antagonize him, and then beat him to within an inch of his life. There is no rationality to it. There's no predictability to it. Or Sandra Bland. Did she really deserve what she got for not being deferential to the police? That's the reason why? And I know that not all of you will see it this way, but to me it's as ugly to me to hear people try to justify the police officer's behavior as it is for people to justify the homophobic bullying of a little gay boy. And now I can see better how people would just not want to deal with what society has come to. And this is not an indictment, it's just an expression of gratitude that before when I used to feel very little ties to society outside of my close family and friends, I now feel a sort of kinship to everyone else who has had a similar experience. And I don't know. If this is the way the world is going to keep working, at least for the foreseeable future, then I feel a little bit of an obligation to make my life work so that maybe eventually my example can help others who endure similar fates. But it's still a huge struggle for me right now to reconcile myself to this being just how the world works. Maybe that's a good thing too. Maybe eventually there will be enough people bothered by this sort of thing that it will cease to be as socially condoned as it still is. Because I wonder what the world would look like if people got as outraged by senseless shaming as they did senseless killing. In a lot of ways, I think victims of shaming would rather be dead -- that's why the suicide rate is so high among young gaysters, as the video points out. But also what good does the outrage at senseless killing accomplish? Maybe moral outrage of any kind is not the solution that it sometimes seems to be in our moments of deepest frustration with the world.

70 comments:

  1. Dear M.E.,
    Thanks for being so honest and revealing. This is as probably the most we can
    expect from you in this area. And firthur proof that you are most likely NOT A
    sociopath.
    Why are some accepted easier then others? It's the Astrological chart again.
    In my own case, I have Pluto in the 1st house, opposed by Mars in the 7th
    house. I make people feel uncomfortable, so they respond by being rude to me.
    I used to be angry, and wondered why I was being singled out, like that crazy
    news reporter who murdered the pretty news caster and the camera man. If I was comfortable with, and raised around guns, I probably would have become a
    mass shooter. But that was not the case, so I retreated from society as best I
    could. I was much more an introvert then an extravert. Still, when I DO venture
    into society, I am ill at ease and uncomfortable. Sometimes you just can't avoid
    people as much as you'd like. And when I see the pretty girls dressed in the
    summertime, well, you can imagine how that feels.
    But yes, it all comes down to the Astrological chart, and other personality and
    physical factors, such as physical appearence, For an intraverted personality
    suicide IS the best answer, because you take yourself out rather then other
    people. No one has the right to kill another person except in self defense. Let
    the pretty girls tumble under the sheets. At least, you don't have to be around to
    be tormented by it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "This is probably all we can expect."

      You don't know what you're taking about. The stars elude you.

      Mr. Hyde

      Delete
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    3. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVESeptember 7, 2015 at 12:40 AM

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    4. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:45 AM

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  2. Such thoughtful reflection (I'm being a little sarcastic). I feel pity for you having to wake up in "this world". You make being a sociopath sound like HIV with description of it as a status.

    The reason for the treatment is you make yourself very public so of course you'll take flack. Are you serious? Sociopathy is hated by many. And you don't really know for sure what these other Sociopaths are going through though I imagine the likely don't care much.

    The woman who is raped after having some drinks at a house party alone in a room with an acquaintance who has previously demonstrated an ill-personality does bear some responsibility for her rape. If she had not drank a lot in bad company the rape would not have happened. Does she have a right to sit where she wants and get drunk? Sure, but along with that right comes the real possibility of getting raped. Would you rather be right or raped? Yes, the creep is responsible for his crime and should get life in prison, but you're a fool if you think your actions don't have consequences. Rule number one to not get raped: Do not put yourself in situations where rape is likely. Show me someone who thinks "I have a right to get drunk and do whatever stupid thing I want" and I'll show you a potential future rape victim. This goes with anything. Put yourself in harms way, get hurt. Use common sense and stay safe.

    The way a kid is treated upon coming out depends on quality of friends, family... the environment he is in and also his interaction in that. Most people never have "no problem" coming out. Some people have "better" environments and it's easier for some to share, but most find it a scary thing and not everyone is happy with it. Many middle east countries and parts of Africa will still put you to death for it. Not an easy thing coming out there I imagine. Not too many parties.

    You're whole post has this "un-sociopathic" I'm a poor victim feel to it.
    I can't believe that real sociopaths or psychopaths ever feel this way. I always imagine that they think themselves superior to others, based on their writings and what they say, happy to not live deluded in a prison of conscience and rules and guilt, feeling free to take what they want and have fun while doing it. Not needing any acceptance or validation from anyone, especially from inferior prey. The way you talk here sounds like you have another issue at center and are not strictly aspd/S/P but I'm no doctor.

    Sandra Bland broke the number one rule taught in kindergarten. Obey the nice police officer. She was aggressive and refused his orders. This is a very dangerous situation for a cop. Once a civilian disobeys, the cop is looking at a good chance of death because death when it happens is usually preceded by a civilian not obeying a command. Then comes the gun/weapon. She obviously had issues and killed herself. The cutting and depression history indicates possible bpd. It's tragic but this was a case of not following common sense. She would not even have gotten a ticket. But she chose to disobey and argue over rights. She thought she was at a protest rally and that this was ok or sensible.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "). I feel pity for you having to wake up in "this world". You make being a sociopath sound like HIV with description of it as a status."

      You are also clueless. This world is full of Needless suffering. Nothing further said.

      Mr. Hyde

      Delete
    2. "This world is full of Needless suffering."

      Thanks Sherlock.

      Delete
    3. Your welcome.

      Mr. Hyde

      Delete
    4. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:41 AM

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  3. M.E.:
    Follow the path with heart - by which I mean do that which unfolds most naturally for you.

    You speak of things not being rational - human behaviour is not rational. Plain and simple. The neocortex jumps in post-facto to claim credit.

    No one says it better than William Gibson:

    "You ‘know’ in your limbic brain. The seat of instinct. The mammalian brain. Deeper, wider, beyond logic. That is where advertising works, not in the upstart cortex. What we think of as ‘mind’ is only a sort of jumped-up gland, piggybacking on the reptilian brainstem and the older, mammalian mind, but our culture tricks us into recognizing it as all consciousness. The mammalian spreads continent-wide beneath it, mute and muscular, tending its ancient agenda. And makes us buy things"

    From the novel Pattern Recognition (spoken by a sociopathic sounding character, Bigend.)

    The Zen masters always trust to their organism as a whole (I'd give a fabulous example if I were at home).

    Trust yourself. If you do, any bullying or ostracisatiob from particular groups will be insignificant. You WILL find places to belong; the world's a big place. As long as you have food, shelter, sex, company, you have what you need from society. When you respond to your own being, you are also more likely to feel healthy and able to contribute in the ways you've suggested are of interest to you.

    And I do understand your sentiments. I've had dark times in which I fantasised about revenge, wanted to throw away any place I had in a society that didn't protect me. But it passed like a wave; it's not what I really want.

    I don't know. For me it works. The best approach is to act in accordance with your nature, trusting to it. It's brought you this far.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I really enjoyed this post and I empathize with you, being a gay man who had a lot of issues coming out. I also had a three year relationship with a socio/psychopath whose absolute manipulation, lies and discarding of me was probably the most painful thing I've ever experienced. I am not happy that you are experiencing being ostracized - it is not fun - but I am grateful that you are able to experience a little of what it feels like on the other side of dealing with someone with too little empathy.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I have considered the possibilities of coming out to a few of the people in my life, though with almost all of them I have cultivated relationships that prove beneficial to me. I'm trying to follow a piece of advice M.E. gave me about telling others to get people "on my side", but I don't want it to destroy all the work I put into these relationships. Is there any sort of questionnaire, for lack of a better word, to help determine if someone would take it well or ostracize me?

      Delete
    2. Come out as gay or as a sociopath? I think as gay, it's about finding one person, then two, then more that you feel comfortable enough to share it with and as you share, your tribe of supporters grows and it gets easier. As a sociopath, I think it truly depends on whether you will also have to expose how you have been using the individual you are telling. I can't truly say, because I'm not a sociopath. I would think that even if you hadn't been using that person, he/she may begin to become paranoid that you might. On the flip side, if the sociopath that used and discarded me were to come out and admit to who he is, it probably would make me feel better to at least know that I wasn't being lied to anymore.

      Delete
  5. Yes, the world is senselessly judgmental and hypocritical. I can't empathize with you as I lack that capacity, but I think I can understand you.

    Imagine for a moment someone with strictly average intelligence. Do you have a picture of that person in your head? Now, realize that half of the world's population is dumber than that. Holding that bell curve in your mind, go a couple standard deviations to the right and you have now segregated the group of people capable of truly seeing the injustices of the world (5%) from those who cannot (95%). Yes, these are bullshit numbers but they're probably in the ballpark of reality, if not slightly generous.

    Simplified, the problem is that the world is full of stupid people, and there is no solution. If people were capable of behaving rationally and making decisions objectively, you would have had zero problems coming out as a sociopath. You're a specimen of natural human variation who has likely had a greater positive impact on the world and people around you than the people who have chosen to judge you and brand you as a monster. It is highly unfortunate that your natural lack of risk aversion led you to make, in retrospect, terribly non-pragmatic decisions. It's quite ironic that you are one of the few people capable of solving society's problems while being labeled as one of its sources.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:42 AM

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    2. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:43 AM

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    3. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:44 AM

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      Delete
  6. Call me cynical, but this post looks like it was designed to create an identification with and to draw sympathy (and maybe connections) from various groups of people in this case for example gays, women, blacks and minorities and their sympathizers. Sociopaths (and aspd/P) according to fields of study, criminologists, psychologists, and victims, are predators and oppressors. They are not victims of the stupidity of man or suffer abuse as a result of their "condition". They are ruiners, destroyers and manipulators. They take advantage of the "stupidity" of man and his over reliance on emotions and feelings for example and not using his brain.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Do my eyes deceive me? Is M.E breaking?

      Delete
    2. "This post looks like it was designed to create an identification with and to draw sympathy (and maybe connections) from various groups of people in this case for example gays, women, blacks and minorities and their sympathizers."

      Yes, yes and oh dear Lord yes!
      The whole thing is one big emotional manipulation attempt.

      She does not want to deal with her failure, so she is playing the pity card.

      There are 2 main ways that a person can be outed as a sociopath. The first is that they ACT like the stereotypical sociopath. Lying, stealing, cheating, manipulating...all those lovely things that make people want to get out the pitchforks.
      Nobody will accuse someone of being a sociopath based on the "sociopath's" thoughts, even if they would make Eli Roth puke, because nobody can read thoughts.

      If you ACT like enough of an asshole that people start screaming you are one, then they are essentially judging you on your ACTIONS. Which I think is very fair.

      Second way is to announce it to all and sundry. Either because they want attention or they are looking for a reaction. Either way...they got it.
      And even then, if the actions don't support the statement, most people will not care much.

      Nobody made her announce she is a sociopath to all and sundry. Nobody made her write that terrible book, make a fool of herself on Dr Phil or expose herself.
      She wanted the attention, the recognition, to be seen as a trail blazer.
      It backfired.

      Gay and black people are not hurting anyone. Therein lies the difference.
      Wherever similarities she feels there are, she is trivializing their struggles by comparing them to her situation.

      I love when she tried to play the gender card too. Older males who were outed...like Andy McNab? No, I don't think he will be joining her in the pity party anytime soon. Because the man is extraordinary. He is a hero. A brilliant writer. Charity supporter, who cares about veterans and does whatever he can to help...I can go on and on.
      He has worked hard and used his traits to make himself extraordinary.
      Maybe he does cop shit for being a sociopath. But he sure as all fuck does not let it define him to the extent that he would resort to pity plays and saying he knows what everyone who has ever suffered through no fault of their own feels. That everyone should embrace sociopaths and host sociopathic pride parades.

      For all that talk of not manipulating and not being so self centered, I fail to see any evidence of her walking her talk.

      Green Eyes

      Delete
    3. Andy McNab? Really? Everyone is selling 'success'. Nothing to see there. Success < Power < Freedom.

      "Gay and black people are not hurting anyone. Therein lies the difference.
      Wherever similarities she feels there are, she is trivializing their struggles by comparing them to her situation."

      Are you sure, Green Eyes? Any minority poses a threat to society and is marginalised. And marginalisation is subsequently rationalised.

      I say again, human behaviour is not rational. It's survival-driven: we're wired to compete for resources and to form alliances that will assist us do so effectively. We all know allegiances are often fleeting...

      You say yourself that no one can read thoughts - you're doing some nice M.E.-reverse-engineering right here.

      What's really at stake?

      Delete
    4. Yes, Andy McNab. Really.
      Trust you to take the very smallest aspect of his work, namely using sociopathic traits to obtain success, and use it to dismiss all the work he actually does...
      What do you actually know of the man or his work? Apart from his book with Dutton, which I would wager you haven't even read?

      And yes, I am sure about what I said about coming out a sociopath.
      Human behaviour is survival based and irrational, yes. But there is a huge difference between simply having different skin colour or wanting to love a partner who happens to be the same sex as yourself, and wanting to continue to lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, etc and wanting the world to tell you that this is perfectly fine too.

      Green Eyes

      Delete
    5. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:45 AM

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    6. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:46 AM

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      TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE


      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

      I WUNT TO MARRREE THEM SO THEES CAN HAPPUN TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE



      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

      I WUNT TO MARRREE THEM SO THEES CAN HAPPUN TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE


      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      Delete
    7. TEEHEEEE VEGITOPATH LOVES MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:47 AM

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

      I WUNT TO MARRREE THEM SO THEES CAN HAPPUN TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEE


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      Delete
  7. I think people like to hold on to their cultural beliefs as their identity. When people show something differently, then what does that make their belief system? wrong? is their upbringing wrong? the things their parents taught them? the things they saw around them while growing up? They turn to anger towards anyone who questions their comfort. They see it as their world falling apart.

    ReplyDelete
  8. My Husband divorce me for no reason, this is how i get him back today because i really love him so much,I'm very excited sharing this amazing testimony, My name is Becky Miller, from USA a banker by Profession. I'm happily married to a lovely and caring husband ,with three kids. A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce.he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited.{bravespellcaster@gmail.com}. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day.What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past 9 months,gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back.So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website { http://lovespelldrbrave.weebly.com/. } if you have any problem contact Dr Brave ,{ bravespellcaster@gmail.com }, thanks you Dr Brave, i will always be testifying about your good work, and for any questions call me on +1(575) 779-6197.

    ReplyDelete
  9. M.E.'s song should be "Dr. My Eyes," by Jackson Brown.
    Let's not be cynic's and jump on M.E. at such a vulnerable time.
    Show her the compassion that we would want her to show us in a simular
    position.
    As a matter of a fact there's a young woman named Casey Anthony.....

    ReplyDelete
  10. Whilst reading the text I didn't think m.e. to be playing the sympathy card or any the like. It was more a listing of her own realizations/ contemplations about world, society. But no self- loathing. Or did I miss that. And if there is, well, I for my part tend to write about sth as if it is my opinion and partly also really is, but on another level there is this part of me who says "Actually I don't care.", "I relate more to the other side of this argument." or "time for breakfast, so this should be enough, don't want to rewrite my whole fucking statement.". And then I'm just curious what other people think about it, criticize about it and I will remember this and use the pattern if the reactions to use it when it comes in handy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:50 AM

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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  11. Thank you for the contemplative post ,M.E.

    I think being a woman sociopath must be even harder for others to understand. Women have been historically allotted the role of nurturer and are thus demonized simply for not being always being sympathetic. Aggressive women are barely tolerated in the halls of power and business, whereas men are praised for being tough and ruthless.

    In a similar fashion, 'regular' sociopaths might not understand your keen awareness of just how mean, irrational, uncontrollable and capricious the world and humans can be. For a sociopath to admit he/she is not in control of their image would be like facing death (or so I imagine). As for public shaming, it's clear that in today's world of social media things have gotten way out of control. I have often wondered why people are obsessed with kicking someone when they are feeling down, often for doing the same thing they wish they could do (hence the long list of cheaters on Ashley Madison).

    It's always risky showing our true self. I admire your honesty, M.E., and do think you've helped many people think more deeply about the human condition. Your evolving self, as revealed on this blog, is truly fascinating and I hope your passage through dispiriting times brings with it new treasure. I look forward to reading your thoughts.

    Mr. Hyde

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hyde,
    If you have finished attempting to publicly woo our lovely, high-functioning sociopath mentor M.E., please elaborate on the "regular sociopath" you mentioned in your post.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Lol!
      Would you like a nice, tall glass of water? You sound mighty thirsty ;)

      Between you two, you have managed to go past Ass Kissing and moved straight into Rim Job territory.
      It's kinda fun to watch.

      Green Eyes

      Delete
    2. Anon,

      I never woo, flatter, suck up or play rim around the rosy. I say what I think, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading M.E.'s post. Take it any way you want. I've no control over your thoughts or opinions. When I said 'regular' sociopaths I meant those who are so wrapped up in the "I am tough as nails' psychopath label that anyone who steps outside of the sociopath norm, i.e., expressing vulnerability, is viewed as a fake or making a pity play. I know plenty of sociopaths who, despite themselves, often do express surprisingly deep sorrow for themselves and even for others. If there's one thing at which I'm an expert, it's bearing witness to pain. Even when people ham up some malady they are expressing their dis-ease with life or themselves.

      Are they lying, manipulating, making a pity play? Maybe. But I always assume (yes I know that's dangerous) that people are people, no matter what. And people always suffer in one way or another, no matter what type of mask they present to the world. I also think a lot of folks of all stripes struggle with the issue of showing their true selves and that's a legitimate issue worth exploring.

      Green Eyes, Happy to entertain you. You see red where I see black. What more can I say? Your crude dissection of my motives reflects your mind, not mine. Whatever. You are fun to read.

      Mr. Hyde

      Delete
    3. "I never woo, flatter, suck up or play rim around the rosy"
      Lol! Deny it all you like, you suck up and flatter a lot. Except when you get all passive aggressive, as you did with Aspie...don't try to bullshit a bunch of bullshitters. Or at least use better material.

      That is quite the generalisation about regular sociopaths seeing any vulnerability as a pity play. Generalisation and yet more bullshit.
      There is a huge difference between the two. Most sociopaths are adept at spotting the difference because they spent enough time in the company of narcissists, who dearly love to use pity plays to get their way.

      You know plenty of sociopaths, do you? That is certainly very interesting.
      How did you meet all these sociopaths? How do you know with such certainty that they are sociopaths and not, for example, borderlines, who are famous for both acting sociopathic at times and feeling surprisingly deep sorrow for themselves?

      You might claim to be an expert at seeing pain and suffering, but people who are experts generally develop a very good radar for manipulators.
      The more you encourage them by giving into their pity plays, the more they will use them, rather than facing the actual problems.
      It might make you feel good to be so "caring", but you are not doing them any service whatsoever.

      Green Eyes

      Delete
    4. Green eEyes,

      You are young. I wasn't being passive aggressive. I was simply speaking my mind, albeit with a bit of wine under my belt. If I'm wrong in some way for what I said. Oh well. Wouldn't be the first time.

      Nevertheless, you are judging my comments in an extraordinary way. Nothing I can do about that. I know why I said what I did, and that's all I need to know. Are you claiming that you know how I feel, think, about M.E. posts? Or my own experience with sociopaths?

      Like I said. You're young and full of spit. That's fine with me. I actually enjoy most of your posts. And even if I didn't, well, there's just no point in arguing with someone like you. Or most people, for that matter.

      "Most sociopaths are adept" at spotting pity plays . . . here's the catch. If you're performing a pity play, on some level you're feeling the need to perform. A sign of hiding some kind of inferior something. Who knows what is not for me to say. Even my alley cat, who was severely beaten, knows how to ham it up for kiblets.

      Yes. I know lots of sociopaths. I've worked with them for 6 bloody years. Sure, some are borderline. Not many. They wouldn't survive in the environment where I work if they carried on with that kind of drama. As you said, it's is boring and exhausting. And the sociopaths I work with don't/won't put up with it.

      I've got a pretty good radar on pain but it's not the only tool I use. I don't think you'd understand suffering at all . . . . Sorry. You're just too full of power at this point. (Pretty heady stuff, no doubt.)

      As for caring. I do. You'll simply have to trust me (!) when I say that, when I choose to engage in other people's BS, I never pull punches. Why bother?

      As Merlin once said, Every time a lie is told, some part of the world is murdered.

      You're obviously smart. And obviously a smartass (seldom a bad thing). Go forth and raise hell, here, there and everywhere.

      Lastly, I admire M.E. because she's a great writer(her book is brilliant, even if it's selectively manipulative). Her posts have given me terrific insight. I've been reading this site for over a year and it's worth a library's worth of knowledge.

      If you think that's sucking up. So be it. That says a lot more about you than her or me. Mind you, I really don't care. I want her to keep posting. And I do believe that she's actually trying to evolve to a higher level of sociopathy than perhaps what others would aspire to. Damn right I find that worthy and intriguing.

      I'd like you to keep posting, too. You're funny, bright and sharp.

      Mr. Hyde

      Delete
    5. Mr Hyde,

      Don't talk to me like I'm a child and don't give me a virtual pat on the head for being a clever little girl.

      You like to talk about judgements and assumptions. I see you also like to make them.
      Simply saying something with an air of authority does not make it true. You worked with the personality disordered for 6 bloody years and have not figured that out?
      Ever consider that they might try pity plays to get what they want, even if they are not really suffering much at all, because it is easy and effective?
      Or that many high functioning borderlines, since they are (mostly) removed from relationships and the dramas that those spawn, tend to act much more sociopathic in confinement? From what you said about the environment, I'd guess it is a confined one.

      Do not presume that I would not understand anything about suffering because I do not give the slightest fuck about what you described, old man. Or because I cannot affectively empathize.
      I understand it just fine and have no trouble showing people compassion and helping them when it is called for. Partly what makes me one hell of a good nurse.

      Green Eyes

      Delete
    6. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:49 AM

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  13. OMG, M.E., OMG!!!

    Your profound thoughts have changed something within me. Where I was blind, now I see!
    I had a moment of what I believe to be true empathy today!
    I was reading your thoughts and at first, I must confess, I rolled my eyes. Then I rolled them harder. Then I switched on some dramatic music (Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, to be exact) and re-read what you wrote.
    And it struck me!
    I can feel empathy. For your shrink.

    The pain, the frustration, the urge to play the world's smallest violin. The poor fucker has to sit there and listen to you ramble on and on about yourself and your sense of self and your true self and your feeling self...blah blah blah...

    He has to deal with your narcissism, the self pitying and the emotional manipulation, such as you tried above.
    Made me wonder if there are many false starts, where just when he thinks you might be getting it, you go back to same ol' routines. Such as when you go on about how you are learning not to indulge in obvious emotional manipulation, then pull what you did here.
    Not to mention tantrums. I mean, you threw a fucking doozie when I criticised you. Made me wonder how you dealt with an "aggressive" therapist.

    So yeah...me. Empathy. Totally happened :D

    Green Eyes

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm glad you are better now Green Eyes and now have empathys. I'm feeling some healing and empowerment as well. Funny, I was also thinking about her therapist and how that might go.

      Maybe I'm giving her too much credit but I think a lot of people think she may be more narcissistic or just an odd douche than real straight up S/P/ASPD. Yet, at times, her writing has a distinctive sociopathic vibe and flow - at least it looks like that to me. Perhaps in addition to playing people for pity and sympathy, she also plays others (therapist etc) acting like she may have another condition or at least has it muddled up and in this way she is less feared, maybe felt sympathy for and felt to be treatable. If you read online, I don't think anyone thought her a sociopath based on her Dr Phil appearance. I just wonder if this was at all deliberate/partly deliberate. Not to make it sound like she is a brilliant actor or manipulator as it all seems sorta lame in any case, but just a thought.

      Delete
    2. Aspie, you can be so sweet sometimes, you always knew how to make me smile :)

      To use an Australian parlance, I was taking the piss.
      Her self pitying rant did not make me feel any empathy. I started to read it and thought my eyes would get stuck from rolling them so hard.
      Since I can't play a tiny violin, at least not in a way that would do this post justice, I turned on some dramatic music and kept reading. Laughed till tears came and my stomach hurt.

      It actually did make me wonder how her poor shrink deals with all that crap, week after week.
      I have dealt with narcissists before, extensively, and let me tell you, I don't think I would last through two sessions.
      Their fucking precious egos! The layers upon layers of delusion. The obvious manipulation attempts. The blame shifting and entitlement...
      And you have to be super careful what you say or welcome to Tantrumville.
      Fuck me!

      And honestly, I really don't think she is a brilliant actress who did all that, especially the Dr Phil fiasco, on purpose. She pretty much told me all about it when she had the meltdown after I challenged her. And the passive aggression was priceless too.
      Made me lose any lingering respect for her.

      You remember me from the old days, how I thought she was the wisest, most awesome person? Raven, UKan and Piles saw straight through her narcissism and lies long before, but I thought she was doing it on purpose, to keep us on our toes.
      Then the truth came out. They were right all along.
      Have you read the book? As much as I loved and admired her because of the blog, as excited as I was to get my little paws on it... I couldn't finish it. Just couldn't. Still can't.

      I agree with the ones who say she is far more narcissistic than she is sociopathic. Let that poor bastard shrink deal with it.

      I'd love to hear more about you and how life has been treating you.

      Green Eyes

      Delete
    3. Hi Green Eyes. I was just playing around about the empathy and knew you were taking the piss. I am not THAT naive and unaware and literal lol. Just trying to be funny. I remember the old days of Ukan and his thousand variations and Raven (the bpd'er or was she S?) and all those guys and you too - I think you came a little later if I remember correctly. I posted a link of cold plays green eyes for you.

      Yeah I remember a few people had her pegged as such and even knew she was female before it all came out. Sometimes I felt she had different authors as her writing could be so different. I haven't followed here in a while though. I think there was a forum for a while and people sort of migrated there and then away. I haven't bought or read the book just little bits that have been republished. Its just too much I, me, my and severe introspection for me, kind of like the blog can be. But it also might be a good attractor for certain people and to get inside certain people. People who like that constant self obsession might be very easy to manipulate. I don't know, perhaps you're right. I remember in a live chat here her response seemed very S'ish it had a little of that chill factor that I've exp before with and S or two I've known before. Maybe its a mixed bag with N predominating. Still, a fun blog back then with a lot of interesting people. I'm doing ok though, thanks for asking. I hope you are doing well too.

      Delete
    4. Btw I didn't know you had some exchange with her (she had a meltdown?) and I didn't know piles. I guess I missed a lot. Sociopath Drama world.

      Delete
    5. Lol!!
      You got me there. I couldn't tell if you were joking or not. Nicely done, you bastard :D

      Glad you're doing well. Life's been pretty damned good here, thank you.

      I know just what you mean about the different authors. Pretty hard to marry up current M.E. and the M.E. from 3 years ago too.
      That's why most of the sociopaths left after the big reveal.
      The new forum they had was created by a 16 year old, who liked to brag to hackers about how good she is, so it got hacked all the time. It was hilarious. Then Demon set up residence. 
      From what Alter told me, it became a narcissistic kids' hangout.

      Can't be bothered with the blog at all for months at a time either these days, unless I get very bored and decide to ruin some narcissist's day, that is.

      It was good hearing from you.
      Take care, Aspie :)

      Green Eyes

      Delete
  14. I think it's time to clear the air about my "relationship" with Jamie. (M.E.)
    Prior to Feburary 2013 I didn't own a computer. I knew I was missing out on
    much, but I had no prospects of obtaining one. I don't really function in "real"
    society. I'm kinda like one of those 12 year old girls who really believed she
    would meet Slender man if she carried out her "mission." Only the T.V., not the
    internet was my drug.
    I was a voracious reader, because I didn't own a computer. I would often go to
    the B. Dalton bookstore and purouse mags and books. Sociopaths were a
    subject that long interested me, and I was curious as to what made them tick.
    Sociopaths were more "chic" a few years ago. Serial killers especially.
    The "Casey Anthony mania" was also prevelant. So when I saw the write up
    in Psychology Today, I had to snatch it up.
    I followed Casey through the only media avaible at the time: T.V., tabliods, and
    the ocassional book. There was a lot about Casey in the aftermath of the
    increadible outcome of the trail.
    Whenever someone catches my interest, I must discover what they are all about. I looked at various personality books. There was NO AGREEMENT about
    the malady that Casey was suffering from by all the experts.

    ReplyDelete
  15. In Feburary 2013, I finally got to use a simple computer The case was not
    currant, but the computer opened up a vast-and large-world that I never had
    acess to. I looked at, and posted on all the "Casey" sites. I have reason to
    suspect that Casey DID see some of the stuff I wrote. After all, what did she
    have to do all day anyway? Some of the sites are no longer in existence.
    I recieved a skype request from "Marie Something." No thanks. I'm 28 years older and nobodies' idea of a "prince. Besides, I have Uranus (Ruler of Aquarus)
    in the 12th house of "self-undoing," so I was and am a flop with "modern stuff."
    The computer did open a vast world. I talked with a lot of people on the PT web-
    site. Imagine. A person who rarely left his room talking with the author's of the
    very books he used to buy! The man that wrote "The Sociopath Wisperher."
    I tried to slip in as many questions about Casey as I could. Many didn't follow
    the story. My best responses came from Astrologers,Numerologists and a
    profiler named Marcell Effors.
    Meanwhile, I found SociopathWorld. I posted stuff here, some of which appeared
    in the right hand colum. It didn't surprise me, because I was fairly knowlegable
    about Sociopaths from all the reading I had done.
    I must have caught someone's attention here for that to have happened.
    I don't know how often M.E. reads the posts here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:48 AM

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  16. I got the impression that M.E. might have been trying to message me in
    a subtle way. She wrote various posts that SEEMED to be inviting me
    to contact her in some way. For example, she once wrote about being unable
    to attract a specific individual she wanted to. Many respondants "teased"
    M.E. that she had feelings after all, in the same way they are teasing her now.
    Also, another time, my post was the only one that appeared on the blog, even
    though other people posted. Even though I percieved this as some attempt to
    initate communication I didn't dare take the chance because of my "past," and
    currant living conditions, and my complete lack of attractibility. With this
    computer, people ASSUME that you are normal, when you can be anything but.
    As "A" taunted me, I will NEVER have a girlfriend, and believe me I know it.
    This computer is going to get me into trouble, and be my "undoing." (Uranus in
    12th house.)
    The closests I get to people are my personality investigations. We all found out
    M.E's actual name. It would have helped to know her time and place of birth,
    but the real name was all I needed.
    What I found out, was that M.E. is FAR from an actual sociopath. She is NOT
    a killer. I suspected that when I first read her book, but an actual analysis of her
    real name confirmed this.
    As for Casey, a few mouths ago, it seemed she was finally going to get her
    long awaited interview. She emerged from hiding and was spotted in N.Y.C.
    I posted my usual encouraging posts and she must have seen them. I got a
    strange "feel out" telephone call from her. (This was the only way she could
    contact a dinosaur like me.)
    A few weeks ago at approximately 7 PM the phone rang. My father picked it up.
    (I never get calls.) The female caller asked for me by name. It was unpresidented. She identified herself as "Casey from Florida," and asked if I was
    one of her biggest admirers." She probably didn't like my response because she
    hung up quickly.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think that she actually wrote what she wanted to write about. Most of us here share a similar history and as such we discuss similar things. It's easy for a person to fall for the Barnum effect.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

      Delete
    2. I've made an error - I was actually referring to the "spotlight effect".

      Delete
    3. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:56 AM

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    4. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:57 AM

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

      I WUNT TO MARRREE THEM SO THEES CAN HAPPUN TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      I WUNT TO MARRREE THEM SO THEES CAN HAPPUN TEEHEEE

      TEEHEEE
      TEEEHEEEE

      Delete
  17. Oh dear... Even more comments. So concerned about Mrs. M.E.'s reactions or intentions. So concerned about their own right or wrong. So concerned about *pretty much irrelevant* questions or facts. A delightful feast, I need to admit. I might be watching some sections around here. Oh, and people... why so anonymous, though?

    Anyway, I guess there is no better way to sum it all up but with this gifset: http://intensely-anxious.tumblr.com/post/128187754001

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 1:01 AM

      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAK





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      TEEHEEE

      Delete
    2. TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

      I WUNT TO MARRREE THEM SO THEES CAN HAPPUN TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEE
      TEEEHEEEE

      Delete
  18. Why would you want to rely on therapists? They play the game too by ensuring that you don't get better. It's what makes them money. Most of them aren't doing this consciously but it doesn't matter. You still haven't learned how the world spins. Hitting rock bottom is the best lesson that life can throw at you. Endure it but not passively. Don't wait for someone to reach you and help you. It is never going to happen because "good" people can't be seen with you. Get out and show em your fists. Once you know how to get out of that hole you'll never hit it again and screw trying to be empathic or should I say em-pathetic - it's what got you there.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "You still haven´t learned how the world spins."
      But as it seems you certainly have discovered this long hidden secret. But you cannot possibly have detect this by being a member of the club? You have to be some otherworldly creature watching us Untermenschen desperately trying to fígure it out while all the time you, oh godly fellow with your heavenly overview, have accomplished this long ago.
      Now tell me then and enlighten me!
      How does it all work together?
      Empathy is not part of the formula, I assume?

      Delete
    2. It's not a secret. Everybody projects and everything is a projection. Some are better at it and some are not. I don't look at other people as Untermenschen. If I would I'd risk being wrong and taken advantage of myself. I don't believe in psychopathy or sociopathy neither as it's a projection too but I sometimes hang on this site because of the quality of discussions that happen here. And empathy - it doesn't exist. It's a mask of human self-preservation. The formula is simple - you don't accept or act on other people's projections by any means.

      Delete
    3. And by the word projection I haven't meant some bogus new age stuff but this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

      I'm not the kind of person that goes talking about something without being able to explain my point. Your violent response was a projection too. It was natural and expected.

      Delete
    4. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:58 AM

      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOP





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      Delete
    5. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 12:58 AM

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      Delete
    7. VEGITOPATH MADLY IN LOVE WITH MONICA AND UKANSeptember 7, 2015 at 1:00 AM

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEE

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      TEEHEEE
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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      TEEHEEEE MEEE WUNT TOO MARREE UKAN AND MONEECA THEY WILL MAKE ME RASE THUR BABEES INTWO HIE-FUNKSHONING VEGITOPATHS LIKE MEE TEEHEEEEEEE

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      Delete
    8. So you like to simplify things.
      I won´t say that it is wrong when you say "everyone projects and everything is a projection", but you make it seem like this is everything one has to know to obtain wisdom. This (projection...) is in my opinion not the essence of human behaviour.
      "Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler."
      You are making it too simple. Of course you can categorize/simplify/ minimize Information, but it is not very helpful for something so comlplex.

      "I don't believe in psychopathy or sociopathy neither as it's a projection too"
      How exactly is it a projection? And of what?

      Oh and sorry about my violence response. But. Sarcasm is so much more fun when it comes to human interaction


      Delete
    9. The essence is control and the more powerless we feel - the more powerful labels we give to ourselves. We find shortcuts to mask our lack of self control and ignorance and we project labels to get some control back. *pathy is nothing but a disconnect that includes a false projection of power giving it's "victims" the feeling of powerlessness. This disconnect makes people more distant and prone to thinking about and influencing future actions but it's root is in a lack of control influenced by other people's projections. Disconnected people get more control over time and it's addictive. I do like control I equate it with happiness but I won't label myself as a *path and I won't tell people that I've got some super powers because I don't. About the complexity ... it isn't very complex at all - we people make everything muuuch more complex then it really is to make us look way smarter then we really are. Things are only complex if we see them through social constructs.

      Delete
    10. It´s a temptation for any intelligent person, and especially for perfectionists, to try to murder the primitive, emotive, appetitive self. But that is a mistake. Control is not the solution and it´s most definitely not the essence. Losing control, throwing off the chains of being for a moment is both terrifying and electrifying, it´s freedom.

      But yes, some people might abuse the Label psychopathy/sociopathy in order to inhibit the feeling of being powerless. People with low self esteem often develop an abnormally and ridiculously high self esteem.
      "Arrogance is the banal mask of cowardice".

      "It isn´t very complex at all"
      how can you be so sure? You are behaving as if anyone around you is thinking too much about everything. Indifference gives you control, yes. But it doesn´t mean you´re right.

      Delete
  19. TREMENDOUS AND WONDERFUL THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN MY MARRIAGE
    Hello everyone out here, am here to tell the world how a spell caster brought my husband back Home, i never thought that spell casters are real, until my husband left me. My name is Serena Williams, i work and live in UK, i got married to my husband 12 years ago, we have 3 kid together, we never have any misunderstanding all this years we lived happily,but all of a sudden he changed and started treating my kids and i very bad, later he stooped coming home, he dose not come home at least month, this really bothered me.

    I was browsing through the net one day when a came across on how Lord Micheal saved a woman called Mandy Diana marriage, i aid let me give him a try on this, i never believed in spell casting before i thought that they were all scam, when i contacted him, he told me not to worry that he will help me, surprisingly he told me that my husband will come back to me in the next 24 hours, with a heart full o doubt, it was a shock that my husband came back to me and started begging that he is sorry, and now we are happy once again. Thank you LORD MICHEAL, and if you are going through this kind of problem, here is his email LORDMICHEALSPELLCAST@GMAIL.COM.He can help you solve your problem.Thank you LORD MICHEAL for restoring my marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  20. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)

    ReplyDelete

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