Tuesday, November 24, 2015

The morality of sociopaths, clueless, and losers

I have forgotten how I got linked to this (sorry twitter people or emailers!), but it is a further explanation of the Gervais Principle, previously discussed on this blog, in which the author discusses the relative roles of the losers, the clueless, and the sociopaths in a modern work environment. The author, Venkatesh Rao, makes clear that he is not necessarily talking about clinically diagnosed sociopaths, but the way he defines them does share a lot of overlap with at least a certain subset of clinically diagnosable sociopaths:

I originally characterized “sociopath” as will-to-power people. Let me add a few more characteristics.

First, sociopaths are driven by unsentimental observation of external realities, no matter how unpleasant. Second, they use the information they acquire through reality-grounding in skilled ways. Third, their distrust of subsuming communities and groups leads them to adopt personal moralities. Whether good or evil, the morality of a sociopath is something he or she takes responsibility for.

Finally, and most importantly, sociopaths do not seek legitimacy for their private morality from the group, justify it, or apologize for it. They may attempt to evade the consequences of their behavior. In fact their personal morality may legitimize such evasion.  Equally, they may, out of realistic and pragmatic assessments, allow themselves to be subject to codified group morality (such as a legal or religious system), that they privately disagree with. So they might accept consequences they feel they do not deserve, because they assess attempts at rebellion to be futile. But in all cases, they reserve for themselves the right to make all moral judgments. Their private morality is not, in their view, a matter for external democractic judgment.

So yes, this entire edifice I am constructing is a determinedly amoral one. Hitler would count as a sociopath in this sense, but so would Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

In all this, the source of the personality of this archetype is distrust of the group, so I am sticking to the word “sociopath” in this amoral sense. The fact that many readers have automatically conflated the word “sociopath” with “evil” in fact reflects the demonizing tendencies of loser/clueless group morality. The characteristic of these group moralities is automatic distrust of alternative individual moralities. The distrust directed at the sociopath though, is reactionary rather than informed.

It then goes on to contrast this group, characterized by the members' personal morality, with the clueless and the losers:

The key here is that the clueless and losers often externalize their moral sense, into some sort of collectively (and ritually) adopted code, thereby abdicating responsibility for the moral dimension of their actions entirely. You don’t have to think about the morality of what you do if you can just appeal to some code (religious texts are the main kind, but there are others, such as Hippie or Joe the Plumber codes). The morality that they defer to is always a codified communal version of the views of some charismatic sociopath, but it is the abdication of responsibility, as a group, by the clueless and losers, that amplifies the impact of both the Hitlers and Gandhis of the world. Without this group dynamic, Hitler would have been a random local psycho, perhaps serial-killing a dozen people. Gandhi might have been no more than a friendly neighborhood do-gooder.

Which implies, by the way, that organized religion is incompatible with sociopathy.

This entire view can be disturbing to some of you, so take a step back here. What do you fear most?An evil group or an evil person? Read Shirley Jackson’s thoroughly scary story of group insanity, The Lottery. Watch Children of the Corn. Would you rather live in a town where there is a sole vampire terrorizing the population, or be the sole non-zombie in a town that has gone all-zombie? Ask yourself, who scares you more — Hitler or the mindless army he inspired? Would you prefer the tyranny of a dictator or the tyranny of an illiberal democracy, where a mob tramples over individuals? Dictators can be overthrown. Can an evil group culture be as easily displaced?

I don’t want to offer flippant and easy solutions to these age-old moral conundrums. I just want to point out to those who are equating “sociopath” with “evil” (modulo any semantic confusion) that morality needs to be looked at in more complex ways.


  1. I don't know. It doesn't take a lot of people to reek halvok.
    8 roving terrorists were enough to bring modern cities to their knees in India
    and France. With the element of surprise, you can kill hundreds.
    A 14 year old boy was able to sneak up on his teacher as she went into the
    lady's room in a modern surburban High School, knock her out, then rape her
    and slit her throat. It took all of 11 minutes. You don't need mobs of 100's
    to commit henious crimes, but it helps.

    1. sociopath = destruction. Nothing good. The acts of "good" are purely mask building to help the coward sociopath hide.

    2. Speak for yourself. You're too cowardly to do anything but snipe from behind the safety of your anonymous cover. Or should I say blankie? :P

    3. Southside SociopathNovember 26, 2015 at 7:39 PM

      sociopath = different = makes you afraid = so they have to be all bad

    4. Sociopaths just because you act macho and, on occasion, say something seemingly sophisticated does not mean that the truth is not what it is: you are, by definition, wearing masks which hide your true identities. WHY you do this varies with each individual and also on how exactly the term "sociopath" is defined. Yes of course they're different but that doesn't mean they're NOT "bad." By definition sociopathy is "bad" because if it wasn't they wouldn't hide all the time for no reason whatsoever except their awareness of the potential danger of exposing their ill-intentions.

    5. I should say you "act macho" only anonymously. Deep inside it's a coward who only acts brave when he has enough resources to defend himself (or herself) without being upfront himself. Yet if they free themselves by repenting, trusting those truly close to them, they're realize how beautiful life can be and why there should never be such a thing as a sociopath.

      It's sad and beautiful at the same time. It's beautiful when the sociopath comes back to life genuinely.

  2. Who is a "loser" and who is "clueless"? Without an ultimate purpose for existence - something each individual craves whether he / she admits it or not - materialism is the only scale to measure winners & losers. Yet we all know that to be truly happy (and what is success if not happiness?) you need love more than anything. Billions of people live far happier lives (where mental illnesses are rare or nonexistent) in the third world. Isn't it plain that the real losers are the ones who call less "successful" people losers? Isn't it plain that those who are deluded call the carefree, happy-go-lucky folks "clueless"? When I was an atheist I used to often wish I was stupid and happy. Now I'm grateful for the life I've been given.

    Having said all that, this article is just an example of muddying the waters with a whole lot of seemingly sophisticated bullshit. Put a bunch of erroneous ideas together succinctly, giving an aura of authenticity & originality and you get people to take you seriously. In the end, life is NOT that complicated.

    Ghandi may or may not be a sociopath depending on your definition. Adolf Hitler was almost certainly no sociopath. Just listen to any of his lectures. He was an extreme patriot who did everything he did in his patriotic zeal for Germany. No sociopath can give an aura of genuine charisma, passion and commitment that Adolf Hitler gave when speaking about Germany. He just happened to get carried away because of all his initial success and since he was taking on the most affluent and notoriously powerful minority ever (the Jews) he ended up committing atrocities.

    1. No, no. The truly "clueless" are people who swallow the dung you peddle- including the mischaracterization of your despicable false prophet and all the atrocities he committed in the name of God. I have heard you compare Christianity and Islam in previous posts- as though somehow, Islam has the moral high ground.

      It's all Taquiyaa- which is essentially "authorized" deception. You Muslims are always trying to cast yourselves in the role of disenfranchised victim, so as to more easily accomplish your strategic spread of Islam, and it's violent, sexist, oppressive creeds. What uneasy, ridiculous bedfellows the far left and the Islamofascists make.

      Muslims accuse others of being fascists, but it is Islam that disseminates hate, despises our Western freedoms and ideals, seeks to forcefully subject everyone to theocracy based on religious extremism and zealotry, and hate the Jews with an unreasonable, unbridled passion. (After all, it is in your Holy Book.)

      The bleeding heart left may swallow your shit, but those of us still capable of using logic and rational thinking never will.
      I am tired of the humanistic/agnostic/atheistic push to paint all religions with the same broad strokes, and the corresponding superficial assessment that Islam and Christianity essentially teach the same things. They do not. (And let us please compare apples to apples. The Levitical injunctions were fulfilled by Christ, and as such are not intended as behavioral guidelines for Christians in the Church age, as clearly illustrated by how Jesus taught the disciples They never were. Most Christians understand that the OT *cannot* be properly interpreted outside the context of the NT. Mohammed sought to replace ("refine") the teachings of Christ- hundreds of years after His birth, death and resurrection.)

      Anyone with an in-depth knowledge of the Qu'ran and the NT cannot logically argue that their teachings are equivalent. So save your complaints about the Crusades for the clueless. I ain't going to let them slide here.

      Allow me to demonstrate:

    2. Mohammed said Allah does not love those who reject Islam. (Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38) Jesus says God loves everyone. (John 3:16)

      Mohammed advocated violence against unbelievers: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" (Muslim 1:33) Jesus reproached violence with the stern warning that "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." (Matthew 26:52)

    3. Mohammed stoned women for adultery. (Muslim 4206) Jesus, when faced with this ancient Levitical injunction, said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."(John 8:7)

      Mohammed permitted stealing from unbelievers. (Bukhari 44:668, Ibn Ishaq 764) The Bible commands: "Thou shalt not steal." (Matthew 19:18)

      Mohammed permitted lying. (Sahih Muslim 6303, Bukhari 49:857) The Bible speaks against it: "Thou shalt not bear false witness." (Matthew 19:18)

      Mohammed owned and traded slaves. (Sahih Muslim 3901) Jesus neither owned nor traded slaves, and the Bible calls slave trading abhorrent (1 Timothy 1:10)

      Mohammed beheaded 800 Jewish men and boys. (Abu Dawud 4390) Jesus beheaded no one.

      Mohammed murdered those who insulted him. (Bukhari 56:369, 4:241) Jesus preached forgiveness. (Matthew 18:21-22, 5:38)

    4. Mohammed said: "If then anyone transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him" (Qur'an 2:194) Jesus said "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39)

      Mohammed advocated war: "Jihad in the way of Allah elevates one's position in Paradise by a hundred fold. (Muslim 4645) Jesus taught his followers to be peacemakers: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)

      Mohammed married 13 wives and kept sex slaves. (Bukhari 5:268, Qur'an 33:50) Jesus was celibate.

      Mohammed slept with a 9-year-old child. (Sahih Muslim 3309, Bukhari 58:236) Jesus did not have sex with children. (And let us please be clear: the fact that "nobody considered pedophilia to be a cultural taboo in Saudi Arabia at the time" is *not* a suitable justification for child rape. :P)

      Mohammed ordered the murder of women. (Ibn Ishaq 819, 995) Jesus never harmed a woman.

      The Qu'ran says: "O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness." (Qur'an 9:123) Jesus said: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)

      Mohammed ordered 65 military campaigns and raids in his last 10 years. (Ibn Ishaq ) Jesus ordered no military campaigns, nor offered any approval of war or violence.

      Mohammed killed captives taken in battle. (Ibn Ishaq 451) Jesus never took captives, and never killed anyone.

      Mohammed encouraged his men to rape enslaved women. (Abu Dawood 2150, Qur'an 4:24) Jesus never encouraged rape, and never enslaved women.

      Mohammed demanded captured slaves and a fifth of all other loot taken in war. (Qur'an 8:41) By contrast, Jesus said: "The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve." (Matthew 20:28)

      Mohammed was never tortured, but tortured others. (Muslim 4131, Ibn Ishaq 436, 595, 734, 764) Jesus was tortured, but never tortured anyone.

      Mohammed said: "And fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah" (Qur'an 8:39) Jesus says: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44)

      Mohammed blessed the brutal murder of a half-blind man (al-Tabari 1440) By contrast, Jesus healed a blind man. (Mark 8:28)

      Mohammed ordered a slave to build the very pulpit from which he preached Islam. (Bukhari 47:743) Jesus washed his disciples' feet. (John 13:5)

      According to Mohammed, what are the Greatest Commandments? "Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause" (Muslim 1:149) According to Jesus, the Greatest Commandments are to "love God and love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:34-40)

      Mohammed demanded the protection of armed bodyguards, even in a house of worship. (Qur'an 4:102) Jesus *chastised* anyone attempting to defend him with force. (John 18:10-12)

      Mohammed died wealthy from what was taken from others in war or demanded from others in tribute. Jesus demanded nothing for himself, and died without possessions.

      Mohammed advocated crucifying others (Qur'an 5:33, Muslim 16:4131) and had others give their lives for him. (Sahih Muslim 4413) Jesus was crucified himself, and gave his life for others.

    5. Fuck you, Fatwah Fuckwad, and the anti-Semitic horse you rode in on.

      Have a *GREAT* day, now, will ya?

      Happy Thanksgiving. :)

    6. And yeah. I realize that I am not responding directly to your comment- but to others you have made in the past, singing the Qu'ran's praises. I'm a bit late on the uptake. Too busy stalking Loonie Lon, dontcha know.~ ;)

    7. "Fuck you, Fatwah Fuckwad, and the anti-Semitic horse you rode in on."

      How very Jesus-like of you. This proves why Islam is not a nonsensical & ill-conceived ideology like Pauline Christianity. Muhammad was "harsh" or "rough" when necessary because to get something GOOD accomplished in a lasting manner you have to deal with the world head on. The world has evil in it and to confront it sometimes unpleasant actions - but justified in the context - are needed.

      It's funny how this apparent Jesus-nut accuses me of antisemitism. I haven't said anything remotely antisemitic so I assume you're a fake Christian or a psycho jew. Either way you've sold yourself to the Devil and are happily going on with your vulgar, and profoundly ignorant, rants against Muhammad.

      You need God - not a man who walked here two thousand years ago. That should be proof enough that men are never divine.

    8. To fight evil with equally malicious actions is to simply replace the evil you sought to rid the world of with a new one: yourself.

    9. Who ever said anything about my wanting to be remotely Jesus-like with you? Lol.

      Unfortunately for you, I am nothing like the man.

      But I can read your antisemitism. It is all over statements like "notoriously powerful group", and "psycho Jew", lol. You reek of your anti-Zionist.conspiracy theories.

      And yet- it is the Waqf that prevents Jews from praying on the Temple Mount, using it as a garbage dump whilst holding it up as your "third Holiest site"- as you pray legalistically with upturned asses towards it. And it is Israel that is the only civilized democracy in the Middle East.

      And it is not Israel's holy men who wave knives around like psycho Muslims, encouraging citizens to stab Israelis to death.

      It is your leaders who pretend that the Temple Mount has no tie to historical Judaism in spite of the plethora of archaeological evidence that you've destroyed in a quest to re-write history.

      It is the followers of your religion whose LITERAL interpretation of its Sacred text results in groups of good Muslims like ISIS

      You think my swearing at you is proof that I need God in my life? :)

      Good call. I'll raise you my altruism, your ignorance, and the false, inverted ideology that you mindlessly promulgate, as well as the demon-possessed man you follow. (Yeah. He himself admitted it in the Satanic verses.)

      The man I call divine didn't rape little girls and behead people.

      But I'm the psycho. ;)

      We have more in common than you think, Fat-wah. :P

    10. Southside SociopathNovember 26, 2015 at 7:43 PM

      This is a good article that shows the true nature of Muslims:


    11. "This proves why Islam is not a nonsensical & ill-conceived ideology like Pauline Christianity."

      The fact that I swore at you in an un-Christlike manner "proves" that Islam is "not nonsensical and ill-conceived ideology"? That's funny. I would have thought that it had more to do with all those Hadith concerning the beheading of infidels, and the raping of heathen women to make them Muslim. Nevermind the verse-by-verse comparison I made, above. I've sold myself to the devil because I insulted your false prophet, called you a name you didn't like, and called a spade a spade without dancing a little jig to avoid offending you. :P

      You must have cultivated your logical abilities in the Islamic Studies department of your local Community College. XD

      "Muhammad was "harsh" or "rough" when necessary because to get something GOOD accomplished in a lasting manner you have to deal with the world head on."

      And what "lasting good" did Mohammed accomplish? The establishment of Sharia, which stipulates that a woman's testimony is only half as good as a man's? The public beheadings staged on an almost daily basis in Saudi Arabia? How about female genital mutilation- an African tribal custom that Mohammed himself promoted- though "only lightly", of course- so the sex-slave, er, wife could still please her "husband"?

      Then again, maybe you are referring to the long-standing policy of the Waqf banning Jews and Christians from praying on the Temple Mount. Or how about the historical Caliphate... Established on the blood of innocents? The widespread institution of child marriage?

      Gee! There are so many wonderful options from which to choose.

      And what did Jesus do?

      He gave Himself for the sins of the world, so that all who might believe in him, and call upon his name should be saved.

      "You will know a tree by the fruit it bears."

      Was it Mohammed who coined that phrase?

      Oh no. That's right. It was Jesus. The historical man who walked here 2000 years ago.

      Funny how his words still ring true.

    12. "You will know a tree by the fruit it bears."

      Yes, the proverbial "harvest" defines what we perceive to be accurate, A. When others mislead, and I have noticed that you are like me in being able to distinguish and/or "pluck" the truth from a pile of rubbish, I select the right harvest, or veracity, by seeing through them and their intentions.

      There is another phrase that rings true: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will 'save' you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

      "Gee! There are so many wonderful options from which to choose."


    13. A:

      "Unfortunately for you, I am nothing like the man"

      I don't know what you meant by this but if there is a threat implicit in this than know I'm NOT anonymous or hiding behind a pseudonym. I would respond to you but I've learned that people who use facetious arguments, lie & distort facts & history, and rather foolishly give themselves away are not worth engaging with. I don't believe you believe in Jesus at all. You may well be a Zionist. I'm not worried about Israel. I have Israeli friends who love NY because Americans are not cynical & distrusting of everyone and everything around them, as is the case in the "only civilized democracy" in the Middle East. They go out of their way (typical, unfortunately, of many Israelis) to cheat the system to get legal status here. Why, I wonder, they don't want to live in their holy land - a country sucking on USA's resources to survive.

      If you're not too old then just sit back and watch the show. Israel, unfortunately for the jews, will destroy herself in her own arrogance and unprecedented violations of international law. Hubris always ends painfully.

      May your God have mercy on you - you seem to need it.

    14. Gardel:

      "There is another phrase that rings true: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will 'save' you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." "

      It does indeed ring true. It was my experience and, it seems, a common theme here.

      Where does this come from?


    15. I would like to hatefuck you Miss Sociopath. Ahh We would be in fucking heaven. ;)

  3. I want to wish everyone a "HAPPY THANKSGIVING"!!!


  5. Replies
    1. Right here, anonymouse- in all my glory.~ :P

    2. We've been waiting. And we are not disappointed. My claws are not near so sharp.

    3. What you lack in terms of claws, you make up for with a razor-sharp mind, North.

  6. Honestly this sounds like Nietzsche and his whole master/slave morality thing. Same idea really: there's some people who set their own values and live as they like and there are some bent on guilt and pushing their values onto others.

    I'm sure you've read him M.E., but I'd say Nietzsche is a pretty good read for any sociopath.

  7. Thanks for the interesting post, M.E..

    I recall reading Venkatesh Rao very early on in my days of researching sociopathy. He writes very well and I think he influenced my thinking around amorality. I didn't delve deeply then; this may be a good time to revisit. He makes sense within the system I'm developing, providing a different angle.

    I have, for example, an explanation for the "clueless and losers" (although this is a poor term laden with emotive content and devoid of explanatory power): that being the primacy of the human drive to normalise. Normalisation also accommodates the following:

    "Equally, they may, out of realistic and pragmatic assessments, allow themselves to be subject to codified group morality (such as a legal or religious system), that they privately disagree with. So they might accept consequences they feel they do not deserve, because they assess attempts at rebellion to be futile."

    I do agree with this statement:

    "thereby abdicating responsibility for the moral dimension of their actions entirely"

    ...but do not agree there are purely negative connotations to group morality. There are very clearly survival benefits for the species (as I have argued previously), and economical benefits for the individual. Rao articulates extreme examples (I don't disagree with them, mind) to bolster the validity of the sociopath's personal morality - that's at all necessary. It's still arguing from a moralist perspective. My preference is to shift the entire debate away from morality, which always depends ultimately upon appeal to authority and is hence subjective, and focus on observed behaviours - actual datapoints - rather than normative positions. I state this even though most people would agree that it were better to have stopped Hitler; I argue this reflects a tendency for individuals to prefer and to assist the survival of the species rather than from an inherently moral position.

    "Which implies, by the way, that organized religion is incompatible with sociopathy." I would suggest there are numerous counter-examples, even here on this blog.

    "Can an evil group culture be as easily displaced?" He raises an interesting point here, but I again argue it is hyperbolic. The flock disperses when the shepherd is killed. Or as Charlie Chaplin so eloquently puts it "The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish."

    Rao has stronger grounds for his arguments than he knows. He makes appeals to the status quo understanding of morality - and it's time for that to shift in alignment with the progress we have made in the domains of biology, human evolution, psychology, anthropology, cosmology etc.

    Morality, like all organic systems, emerges from complex networks of interaction. That a sociopath chooses his/her own personal morality is by-the-by: he/she bites his/her tongue and follows the group rules *to the degree* necessary to sustain social acceptance.

    Okay. Will think some more.

    1. Quickly: I would almost be a sociopath by his definition - I'm clearly not by anyone else's though. I enjoy his phrasing, generally speaking, though might diminish certain elements.

      1: driven by unsentimental observation of external realities
      I develop my model for understanding the world in this way and it forms the basis of my actions. But I embrace my empathic toolkit in working within groups.

      2. They use the information they acquire through reality-grounding in skilled ways.
      Work-in-progress. My environmental awareness has been incredibly poor until my recent experiences.

      3. "Third, their distrust of subsuming communities and groups leads them to adopt personal moralities."
      My experiences led me to develop my personal model. I'm learning trust, but this is not precluded in my model. My behaviour is - like most people's - sometimes in accordance with the relevant code and sometimes contravenes it.

      "The fact that many readers have automatically conflated the word “sociopath” with “evil” in fact reflects the demonizing tendencies of loser/clueless group morality. The characteristic of these group moralities is automatic distrust of alternative individual moralities. The distrust directed at the sociopath though, is reactionary rather than informed."

      Accurate observations, but to be expected. This is normalisation at work. Note very carefully: norms are very flexible, and are subject to power. This is why factions and lobbies develop. Etc. It's all very exciting.

      Good and Evil are labels, shortcuts to conceptual understandings rather than absolute truths. And subjective, if one will survey the evidence.

      "I just want to point out to those who are equating “sociopath” with “evil” (modulo any semantic confusion) that morality needs to be looked at in more complex ways."
      -> simpler ways. Occam's Razor. There is a simpler, adequate explanation at hand.

  8. ***** PERSONAL COMMENT ******
    My ex used to call me the love of his life (LOML.) He always addressed me like this - until I told him not to because it clearly wasn't true. But it had sunk in, it seems. We're talking two years ago now.

    I have been attempting to contact him, writing conguently and offering a new mode of relationship. I explained my curiosity to this delicious, dangerous, dichotomous creature, and offered an apology for any damage I had caused him with my angry, frightened, callous action. I told him he was more successful with me than he could have imagined. He read this a number of times (I presume, based on Viber's "Last online" function.)

    It has been my hope to talk to him for 12 months. As I wrote on Twitter, and also to him, I allow the impossible to transform me although I didn't even know what that meant when it came to my mind.

    Expressing what I have wanted when I was ready to do so... those sorts of things change me deeply. I woke at 11pm on Monday night knowing something was different. I thought something was different with *him* (magical thinking, lol). But the next morning, I realised what it was...

    I have thought he was the *love of my life*.

    Those words he used. Those words had formed a subconscious belief - I really believed it deep down although I NEVER believed it intellectually. Although I have largely healed, I haven't been able to fully move on *because* of this belief. I have kept looking for him or comparing others to him.

    When hidden beliefs are made conscious, they can be challenged. Right now I would still be glad for him respond to me. I *know* it is unlikely. I know what A says is true: he sees me only as a toy. Another psychopath -the one who helped me understand what had happened in the direct aftermath - said something which has always proven correct:

    "you asserted your free will and he will not have a relationship like that as a psychopath."

    I tried to prove that wrong. But the evidence is in favour of the null hypothesis.

    I suppose when sociopaths / psychopaths do reveal themselves, they chose to whom. For the record, his wife didn't know at the time I saw her. She was fuc*ed, IMHO. And I guess he will not choose to reveal himself to me, although I have been at pains to show him I am not a threat and would willingly engage with him.

    The upshot is this subconscious belief, driving my behaviour for so long, is now able to dissolve. It is dissolving. Love is, then, part belief. And beliefs change. (He told me feelings change...) I really would prefer someone who sees me as a person. I don't like games, even when played by so magnetic a creature as he.

    ***** END PERSONAL COMMENT ******

    1. North maybe he has nothing to reveal. I fell in love with a sociopath and I can't help but feel that he felt something very strong for me too. I can see a lot of what he did as an attempt to prove something to me but then I can never be sure. I didn't need anything except the truth. Just be honest and speak from your heart. I knowingly let myself get into a deep hole for him - I wanted to free him. He has immense potential - his true self that he hides and only let's out "strategically" is beautiful. I couldn't understand why on Earth he ever hid it. Nonetheless, he betrayed my trust big time and still I would happily forgive him IF only he apologized and showed me some sign that he actually cares enough about me to go a little out of his way.

      Empaths don't call sociopaths evil in ignorance or in malice. It just REALLY hurts when you see indifference from people you'd give your life for if need be. I swear I would take all kind of suffering on myself if it meant I was saving him from it BUT I need to know that he cares and acknowledges at the very least. Imagine you love someone so much, sacrifice so much (outwardly and inwardly) and in the end you are treated like a nobody. That IS evil in many ways. The sociopath knows that he hurts the victim but because he doesn't feel it he choses to ignore the other's pain. That IS evil.

    2. By nothing to reveal I mean he's not sociopathic. I had some traits - I guess my humor and my outer hardness - which may lead someone to assume I'm callous. In reality I'm just toughened up by the brutality of life. I've lived an unusually rough and lonely life despite having the potential - almost easily - to turn that around. Fortunately I cannot for the life of me "sellout" for a "happiness" - I have gained enormous strength and courage as I've moved along and I think sociopaths read me as a bigger psycho than them. I'm the opposite of a psychopath: brutally honest on the outside but incredibly soft hearted and empathetic on the inside. If you'd expect me to "reveal" myself it would never happen and YOU would be wrong to expect it.

    3. And now imagine you really love and treat a person as you ought to treat a lover: do what you think is good for them, not what they want you to do which may not be good for them. You go out of your way to make things easy for them without trying to spoil them. You overlook things and forgive without always pointing out that you are aware of their actions and motives. You put aside your own ego and are willing to lose them rather than put on a fake show to impress them. Love never deceives and knows in the end the truth always wins. Imagine, IMAGINE IF someone loved you like that and you (not you North) took all their affection and generosity as some sort of manipulation or an ulterior agenda. Imagine the pain one would feel when they are accused of the exact opposite. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen - that people don't betray by a false display of affection but a sane mind and heart can always tell what is genuine and what isnt. Even if a mistake is made it can be corrected with a genuine apology and reconciliation but sociopaths consider that beneath them - a sign of weakness when it is in fact strength. The only thing us empaths do in return is call you heartless and evil. The first is obviously true and the latter - if not true - is nothing compared to the pain the sociopath causes.

    4. What are you trying to do?

    5. He's trying to prove how very enlightened and unsociopathic he is by regaling your itching ears with unsolicited advice. XD

    6. You are making an accurate point, A. I am joining you in these perspicacious observations. Nearby. ;)

    7. "A sane mind and heart can always tell what is genuine and what isnt."

      ^What an ironic statement, coming from someone who has chosen to cling to a false ideology rooted in deception- spread by an opportunistic pedophile, charlatan, and warmonger. :P

      The heart is deceptive, Jonaid. You think too highly of yourself.


      Thanks. :)

    8. Funny now "A" knows what is in my heart. My advice was indeed "unsolicited" by that's called empathy - you wouldn't know what that is. North chose to post a personal note and I couldn't help but feel that there's some longing for a lost person. He / She doesn't have to take anything from what I posted but IF something helps in any way, I'd be happy to know that I was able to do that, with almost no effort. You should try that "A" instead of spreading hate and ignorance, willfully.

    9. And if it isn't plain (sociopaths - the extreme ones - seem to forget what was once obvious and innate in them) people who "think too highly of themselves" don't waste their time giving "unsolicited" advice to others on the off chance that it might help them. That is even more plain when the advice is given to an anonymous person who almost certainly would not acknowledge it even if it were of any help (again, nothing personal North).

      If I thought too highly of myself I'd have agreed with most of your BS "A."

    10. A:

      Thanks to God and God alone, I am - or at least I feel comfortable saying so after seeing what you spew on this forum - far more enlightened than you. God guides as He wills. You can call that "thinking too highly of myself" - I call it honesty. If you have the humility to try getting there, either practice what you preach about your Savior or genuinely beg God for mercy and knowledge. You'll benefit from that, not me.

    11. Lastly, "A":

      The reason I'm NOT anonymous and not using pseudonyms here is because I KNOW today that God is without doubt a reality. I don't cling to any ideology I cling to the Truth. Only I know how distant I was from God and farther still from religion. I would have said I'd have been the last man to be a theist again, having mastered the "theist / atheist" debate. I'd rather be dead than humiliate myself by falsely clinging to a ideology - no matter how comforting or depressing it may be. By God I was forced to accept the reality that I've witnessed and to deny it is to actually make myself worthy of what I once considered an unwarranted, disproportionately harsh punishment in hell. To deny it now is to cave into fear of people - ignorant people - rather than accept what I KNOW to be true just because it appears to me (and ignorant, limited mortal) to be inconvenient.

      Ponder. Seek and ye shall find. Just be genuine in your journey for knowledge.

    12. Jonaid,

      Had you spent time understanding the dynamics of this blog before suicide-bombing it, you'd know that A and many others have spent time understanding my story and sharing valuable perspectives rather than jumping in with completely uninformed nonsense.

      You haven't shown any capacity for collaboration or reasonable discussion. You demonstrate no desire to treat the contributors here as individuals; rather you see your model of the world as of supreme importance.

      If you wear a bomb vest into this place it's only a matter of time before someone - in this case A - happily detonates it for you. Don't think you will have influenced anyone because you lack respect.

      You can't see anyone.

      It's you who fail to exercise empathy or any decent human trait. You order us to read the Qu'ran and to ponder. You haven't earnt any respect.

    13. The signals you give are all about forcing your view rather than any iota of care for any other human being or acknowledgement of another's journey or perspectives.

      I'm happy your journey satisfies you. But cease and desist from forcing it on others. You are really coming across as a narcissist who can't see anyone beyond themselves.

      BTW North is my new name. Chosen by me, for myself and registered with the authorities, appearing on my driver's licence.

    14. So much for freedom of expression. Now I'm advised to follow the rules of certain visitors to the blog because they don't like my "narcissistic" approach. You judge what is narcissistic and what isn't based on the content - NOT based on intentions. That is by definition the reverse of what is truly empathetic, honest and NOT narcissistic. I'm used to be of being called narcissistic by narcissists in the past (I'm not saying you are a narcissist North). Speaking truth when it is not popular or unwanted is not easy but that's the story of my life: it's not easy.

      I'm not a sociopath North I don't do false displays of empathy. I know what genuine emotions and empathy are. I don't need to study the blog to understand it's dynamics - empathy is innate in human beings. Anything that requires an examination of the group to understand how to manipulate your own nature is by definition deception and ultimately leads to psychopathy. I'm here to give my honest take on things. If you don't like it you can choose to ignore me or counter me using your reason (if it's genuine). To attack me because I don't understand YOUR dynamics is rather presumptuous but not surprising for sociopaths.

      Those who truly care about you do not need to study you and give you what you think you want. They will give you what they think is good - and you have the choice to accept it or reject it. That is true empathy and love. I've learned it the hard way and found God in doing so. I simply offer my suggestion (with some emphasis added) regarding God and the Qur'an. Why should it bother you if you can simply skip my post and refuse to read it? You don't have to ponder if you don't want to. I empathize and - perhaps wrongly - but if I were where I was 6 months ago I wish someone had pushed me to do what I ended up doing earlier. How can I now NOT do that just because you seem to mind a little?

      Good luck and please don't take my views - which I admit can sometimes appear to be harsh or imposing - to be anything other than my attempts to counter a false narrative (psychopathy) with a true one (as I know it). I don't caricature humility by feigning it. Humility, like wisdom, is within, not without.

    15. I'm sorry but I have to say this:

      Sociopaths - the "good" ones (those who either inherit the disposition or are abused into it) - have always, in history and presently, reacted fiercely to anything that targets their own hearts deep down. Whenever they're challenged with truth and emotions, asked to rise up and free themselves, see the world and not fear it - only God ought to be feared - they react angrily and, at times, violently. In the end, God willing, they will be freed and no one will be more happy and brutally honest than them. This is not a new phenomenon - we just have new terms for it now.

    16. As regards your story: I would never ask a sociopath to provide details for their personal narrative. I'm NOT good at that - I don't know how to do that with sociopaths and, as you've already observed, I apparently come across as NOT empathetic and conceited. I wasn't trying to get involved in your personal affairs (not that I wouldn't help if you sought it) but since the post was made in a public forum and I related in some sense, I thought my own narrative could help us both somehow get something from it. I genuinely felt some pain in your message and having experienced it myself I needed to write. That is empathy.

      Why on Earth is that wrong? If it is I don't understand why and until I do I will do what I think is right, not what others (in a sociopath forum!) tell me to do.

      Thanks and peace.

    17. This is now unwitting trolling.

      Peace, Jonaid. Invest your energy rescuing yourself.

    18. Some of us rescue ourselves by rescuing others first. Yes such people exist. Nonetheless, you've made it plain that you don't want to hear anything from me so I won't address you personally again. If I do my apologies in advance just remind me not to.

      Thanks and it's been interesting.

  9. Oh, and please don't take offence to my use of the word 'creature'. Remember - 'we're all wild animals'. I use 'creature' to convey the sense of mystery and unknown complexity I find in him.

  10. I SUSPECT-but can't prove-that "A" payed me a visit yesterday morning.
    The reason that "A" hasn't been posting is because for the past few weeks,
    she has been ploting stragety. She wanted to introduce herself to me in person.
    After 9 AM, I heard my doorbell ring frantically. I never answer the bell, for fear
    of home invasion. I saw this person standing on the stoop, but didn't approch to
    open the door. I then went upstairs to peek out the window. I saw a strange car
    parked in my driveway. I took a pair of binoculars to try to get a close-up of who
    it might be. The sun must of glinted in the lense of the binoculars because the
    car door opened and someone hit the horn again. The car (uber cab?) departed.
    Was it "A"? Or was it another person who's last name begins with "A" that
    tried to contact me a couple of times, first through Skypth then through a very
    brief phone call?
    I want to apologise to you. I DO love you. But my "situation" is not normal.
    If I were young and healthy I'd open that door. It's too late.
    I HAVE left good advice. It's stuff that a young person can use-if she's
    determined. Casey dear, get into a "mind study" group. The two best are:
    "New Life Foundation" based in Arizona, or Guy Findley. Sure, you'll be bored
    to tears, but you can get a quality guy. Just sit there 'attentively" if the words
    go in one ear and out the other, so what? You're looking for Rhett Butler
    anyway. Just make some minor alterations to your appearence. You can fit in
    MOST places.
    If the above doesn't work out, the final alternative is the evangelical church.
    They are very big on forgiveness, but you can't afford to wash out again.
    You will belong to THEM. But that's still better then going hungry.

    1. You got me. I've been stalking you, Loonie. I mean, it isn't as though I don't already have my hands full running a household and an organization... I've got all the time in the world.~

      It's just a matter of time before I creep into your bedroom late at night, and show you just how much of a freak I *REALLY* am....

      Sleep tight, big boy. ;)

  11. I want to wear a t-shirt that says "WARNING: May Induce Violent Orgasmic Convulsions" and see what kind of responses I ellicit in public.

  12. Dear A:
    Must be brief as computer doesn't allow me to post. (Or is it M.E.?)
    I know it probably was Casey. I will never be close to her. But my advice
    can help her.

  13. Somehow, all the above postings from "A" "materialized" as I was trying to
    compose my own post. I only have the crudest computer skills.
    However it happened, I can only say that "A" is the most brilliant woman on
    Earth. Be frightened of "A" killing me? It would be an HONOR to die by "A's"

    1. Eh. You're going to have to let go of that little fantasy- except alone, late at night, when you're burning with unreciprocated lust- because a fantasy is all it will remain.

      I have no desire to kill anyone. Not even you. :P

  14. Many with the fixed "socio=evil" mindset most likely would be surprised to find a (likely) scenario in areas where genocide has been committed (by the empaths in the area), with non-participating psychopaths hiding in the woods, not because of their inner goodness, but because they were not interested in doing others dirtywork.


  15. Hi i want to give thanks to priest Aluta Magic Temple for helping me bring back my ex back, i was seriously in a heartbreak with my ex and i think all hope was lost until i was browsing the internet and i saw a testimony that someone shared about priest Aluta Magic Temple and i choose to contact him also to see if he can still help me i gave him a trial but at the end joy and happiness filled my heart i have never believed in a spell caster because i have been a victim of scammers on the internet, he casted a love spell on my ex to make realize the truth. My Ex who break up with me for more than 9 month called me after 5 days of metting Dr Aluta and she want to come back to me she even apologize to all she had done to me and want my forgiveness. so reader if you are out there looking for the help of any kind in your relatinship or marriage you are advise to contact his email; traditionalspellhospital@gmail.com

  16. This is what came first:

    "Recite in the name of your Lord who created.
    Created man from a clinging substance.
    Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous.
    Who taught by the pen.
    Taught man that which he knew not.
    No! [But] indeed, man transgresses.
    Because he sees himself self-sufficient.
    Indeed, to your Lord is the return.
    Have you seen the one who forbids?
    A servant when he prays?
    Have you seen if he is upon guidance?
    Or enjoins righteousness?
    Have you seen if he denies and turns away?
    Does he not know that God sees?
    No! If he desists not, We will surely drag him by the forelock.
    A lying, sinful forelock.
    Then let him call his associates.
    We will call the angels of Hell.
    No! Do not obey him, but prostrate and draw near [to God]."

    Qur'an Chapter 96: The Clot

    It is infinitely more beautiful in Arabic and especially when it is chanted. The start of the revelation and how fitting it is for a forum such as this.


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  18. North, really? You think A is great? She is only stroking you ego. And more to the point you are stroking hers. She needs it. You don't. For Xist sake, she keeps responding to the 'Casey' boy telling him she is busy running a business and a household. What does that tell you?

  19. How to Save Your Relationship And Marriage from Divorce or broke up, Dr Frank Ojo saved my marriage by bringing my husband back home today..! My name is Natasha Becky. I'm happily married to a lovely and caring husband with two kids. A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my husband .so terrible that he took the case to court for a divorce.he said that he never wanted to stay with me again,and that he didn't love me anymore.So he packed out of the house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get him back,after much begging,but all to no avail.and he confirmed it that he has made his decision,and he never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my husband .So i explained every thing to him,so he told me that the only way i can get my husband back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for him too.So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow his advice. Then he gave me the email address of the spell caster whom he visited.{Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com}. So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address he gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my husband back the next day.What an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my husband who didn't call me for the past 9 months,gave me a call to inform me that he was coming back.So Amazing!! So that was how he came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and he apologized for his mistake,and for the pain he caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster. So, If you have any problem contact him, I give you 100% guarantee that he will help you, Thanks to Dr Frank Ojo for bringing back my husband ,and brought great joy to my family once again, so here his email address { Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com } Website address: http://lovespell2.yolasite.com, Thanks Dr Frank Ojo for restoring my marriage.

  20. I went through a tuff time in my life I hit rock bottom my partner actually better said my fiancé started complaining that he couldn't afford his house anymore that he wanted to put it on rent and for us to rent. That didn't make sense to me I told him that we can do it together that I know times are tuff but we can work it out. As days went by and me tryin to convince him not to but I couldn't it was his house. Things got worse and worse he started telling me that he wants some time alone that he didn't want this anymore. My heart broke I pleaded wit him that we will work they things but he didn't want Ro hear it that what he wanted and that's it. Then one day when I was at work I received a message from him that he has moved out and left me in his house alone. I still tried to save our relationship but I failed. A few days later he send me a message that he has a agent coming and that I need to move my stuff out and I did that day and since then I haven't heard from him
    Then a miracle happened I ran across a lady saying she has a similar story and mentioned of the spell caster by the name of Dr Frank Ojo and has his email address attached. I had no hope left u had tried spell casters before and I was scammed in every way possible but I didn't want to give up on my man so I gave it one last try I emailed the chief and my dreams came true he help me in every way possible and he got my man back I couldn't be happier and I can't explain how much gratitude I have for this man we are happier then ever now I have my baby back with me and that all thanks to Dr Frank Ojo . If you are struggling please don't cause yourself more heartache I recommend this man he is my god email him how and get your life back on track { Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com } HERE HIS WEBSITE ADDRESS : http://lovespell2.yolasite.com/..Load more..

  21. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

  22. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)


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