Wednesday, December 23, 2015

On Morality

From a reader:

Recently read Joan Didion's collection of essays, "Slouching Towards Bethlehem," I recommend the essay titled, "On Morality." Reminded of your views on mob mentality and the impossibility of a collective conscience. Here's a link to the essay, http://columbian.tiffin.k12.oh.us/subsites/Jennifer-Musgrave/documents/AP%20Language%20and%20Composition/120-Didion-On-Morality.pdf

Cool quote, “I followed my own conscience.” “I did what I thought was right.” How many madmen have said it and meant it? How many murderers? Klaus Fuchs said it, and the men who committed the Mountain Meadows Massacre said it, and Alfred Rosenberg said it. And, as we are rotely and rather presumptuously reminded by those who would say it now, Jesus said it. Maybe we have all said it, and maybe we have been wrong. Except on that most primitive level—our loyalties to those we love—what could be more  arrogant than to claim the primacy of personal conscience?"

Another good quote from the link:

Of course you will say that I do not have the right, even if I had the power, to inflict that unreasonable conscience upon you; nor do I want you to inflict your conscience, however reasonable, however enlightened, upon me. (“We must be aware of the dangers which lie in our most generous wishes,” Lionel Trilling once wrote. “Some paradox of our nature leads us, when once we have made our fellow men the objects of our enlightened interest, to go on to make them the objects of our pity, then of our wisdom, ultimately of our coercion.”) That the ethic of conscience is intrinsically insidious seems scarcely a revelatory point, but it is one raised with increasing infrequency; even those who do raise it tend to segue with troubling readiness into the quite contradictory position that the ethic of conscience is dangerous when it is “wrong,” and admirable when it is “right.”

You see I want to be quite obstinate about insisting that we have no way of knowing – beyond that fundamental loyalty to the social code – what is “right” and what is “wrong,” what is “good” and what “evil.” I dwell so upon this because the most disturbing aspect of “morality” seems to me to be the frequency with which the word now appears; in the press, on television, in the most perfunctory kinds of conversation. Questions of straightforward power (or survival) politics, questions of quite indifferent public policy, questions of almost anything; they are all assigned these factitious moral burdens. There is something quite facile going on, some self-indulgence at work. Of course we would all like to “believe” in something, like to assuage our private guilts in public causes, like to lose our tiresome selves; like, perhaps, to transform the white flag of defeat at home into the brave white banner of battle away from home. And of course it is all right to do that; that is how, immemorially, things have gotten done. But I think it is all right only so long as we do not delude ourselves about what we are doing, and why. It is all right only so long as we remember that all the ad hoc committees, all the picket lines, all the brave signatures in The New York Times, all the tools of agitprop straight across the spectrum, do not confer upon anyone any ipso facto virtue. It is all right only so long as we recognize that the end may or may not be expedient, may or may not be a good idea, but in any case has nothing to with “morality.” Because when we start deceiving ourselves into thinking not that we want something or need something, not that it is a pragmatic necessity for us to have it, but that it is a moral imperative that we have it, then is when we join the fashionable madmen, and then is when the thin whine of hysteria is heard in the land, and then is when we are in bad trouble. And I suspect we are already there.

57 comments:

  1. Why is it wrong to send all sociopaths to the gas chamber, at least those that are determined to continue to make themselves the gangrene of society.

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    1. Assuming that it's fine to send people to gas chambers for being the "gangrene of society", then send everyone there.

      Or, you know, just separate them from society. If you really need to do something. But seriously some part of you must realize that question sounds ridiculous, why do you ask that?

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    2. And by everyone I mean everyone who is gangrenous.

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  2. I was involved with a pp. I did not allow anything he did push my buttons. My journey of self discovery kept me in communication even after our physical contact ceased. I felt called to keep looking at the seeming madness. And I'm spool grateful I did. All along I chose to use him as my mirror And in doing so I have discovered that I am a sociopath. He recently tried to blackmail me. I said if you feel the need to expose pictures feel free. I hold my head high. This has been the ultimate submission. I have turned the other cheek. The fat lady has finally sung.

    What I gleaned was more personal power. I am not a victim. I knew this man couldn't give what he didn't know himself to have. I grew in My degree of non judgement, compassion, personal responsibility and belief that we all deserve love and support right where we are.

    On a cosmic level I feel I have reaped what I've sown.

    These are the days that must happen. The psychopath In my life turned out to be the best XMAS present.

    I know he's done seemingly terrible things, But I wonder...
    do they ever let their guard down?

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    2. "Do they ever let their guard down"?
      Not Likely.
      For
      How can you let something down that you are in full denial of, yea, that you depend on to survive?

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    3. "Do they ever let their guard down"?
      Not Likely.
      For
      How can you let something down that you are in full denial of, yea, that you depend on to survive?

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    4. North aka thoughtjourneyDecember 23, 2015 at 12:42 PM

      ^Survival, yes.

      This reminds me of the comment on a previous post regarding a Lord of the Flies type fantasy sociopaths have: perhaps it is a sense of the impending crumble of society's facade and resumption of jungle law.

      The primal nature of such a view fascinates me.

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    5. I originally liked this comment but after re-reading it I realized I'm not sure what the message is. I guess I shouldn't ask what a "pp" is?

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    6. At almost half century old I just recently removed my mask. A psychopath boyfriend was my mirror. Objective morality continues to be dead in the water. It's a broken idea. Who then is more mad? Ones who have woken up or those who are still asleep?
      Bad is in the equation to equal good.

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    7. By "do they ever let their guard down?" I assume you mean their "mask"? Expose themselves? If so the answer is it depends on 1) how psychopathic they are, 2) their context - the people and situations they encounter, 3) whether or not they truly have a "mask" (some people might think I'm sociopathic because I have displayed some traits in the past but I'm certainly no socio or psycho.

      Objective morality exists but most people don't subscribe to it. It's not easy and can be very lonely but it is the only road to ultimate freedom and success.

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    8. ý tưởng tô điểm cho phép thử nghiệm và đem lại cho vật dụng trong nhà nhà sự bất ngờ và nét riêng biệt. Đó là một thời điểm tốt để biến giấc mơ bạn đã ấp ủ bao lâu nay biến thành hiện thực. Hôm nay bạn có thể trang tri noi that căn nhà của bạn bằng cách thêm ghe sofa bố trí có một không hai, phản ánh ước mơ của bạn. sat my thuat bộ sưu tập của các sáng kiến tiên tiến cho bức tường trống sẽ giúp chọn bí quyết tốt nhất cho đồ đạc chung cư của bạn và phân phối cho nguồn thú vui lý tưởng cho những dự án trang trí. do go phong khach , do go nha bep , do go phong ngu , giúp diện tích sống cập nhật một cách nhanh chóng. Một lớp sơn mới sáng trên bức tường của bạn hoặc bông hoa đẹp trên nền phá cách là các ý tưởng trang trí tường hoàn hảo và phản ánh các xu thế mới nhất. Bức tường không phải chỉ là một màu đồng điệu. Ngoài ra còn có phần lớn các loại khoa học trang trí bạn có thể thử trên những bức tường trống rỗng của bạn như gia cong sat , gia cong inox , bang hieu , logo , poster , gian hang hoi cho , cong chao su kien , su kien quang cao

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  3. "How many madmen have said it and meant it?"

    How do we know who actually meant it and who didn't? You see we tend to ignore the most important questions out of some misplaced sense of "courtesy." Objective morality not only exists, it is so utterly simple and innate to all of us that we simply fail recognize it. As I've said before, we all know what is right and what is wrong - the problem is with the application of our ethics in a world where most people don't practice what they preach. We keep amending our views based on a shifting zeitgeist and ultimately end up going so far that we end up redefining original terms with Universal application to suit our temporary needs and in doing so we are cut off from objective morality.

    Our conscience always directs us to what is "good." We may end up DOING the wrong thing even with a good intention for a host of possible reasons: confusion, insufficient information, mistakes / accidents, coercion, etc etc. Such a person is moral even if the outcome would make us think otherwise. Such a person ought to say "I did what I felt was right but it is possible I was mistaken." The outsider can evaluate the situation and can determine if indeed the individual responsible is honest because anyone else directed by their conscience would have done exactly the same thing given the context.

    On the other end of the scale, someone could do something in a certain context which appears to lead to a better outcome but their decision was not conscience-based. They had some ulterior motive and just happen to either get lucky or fooled people into thinking they did the right thing. Such an act is immoral despite the outcome and if the person attributes this act to their own conscience they've lied and have gotten away with it. Even worse is the examples cited in the post: a serial murderer can say he was following his conscience but a sane mind ought to reject the claim instead of rejecting conscience-based decision making.

    The rest of the argument is misplaced altogether. No one is saying that a certain moral code be "inflicted" on others. What some - including myself - do insist on is uncompromising honesty when it comes to SAYING what is right and what is wrong. You may not like it but unless you can show why I'm wrong you have no right to say morality is subjective or that someone else is inflicting their ethics on you. This is the trick: write seemingly sophisticated articles on the complexity of morality and give the impression that you've raised a legitimate concern. Instead of dissection the false claims of criminals you merely quote them and say "How do we know that our conscience is always right?" Also note: these kind of pseudo intellectual arguments only start AFTER civilizations are formed and flourishing. How did they get to that point? By following a moral code adhered to by the overwhelming majority (if not unanimously) of the population.

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    1. Is stealing objectively wrong?

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    2. What is ESTP sociopath mean please?

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    3. Yes it is objectively wrong. Stealing here is defining as taking something which belongs to another without right and without any compulsion.

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    4. What is ESTP sociopath mean please?

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    5. I make two dollars a day. There are 9 mouths to feed in my family and $2 doesn't sustain us. I steal from the market as I am able. Please talk to me about objective morality....We are to die at the hands of your objective morality!

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    6. Are you asking what ESTP means or what ESTP Sociopath's position is?

      ^ 'Objective morality' is a model. So we can ask for the model to match the datapoints we all provide by our experience. If the model does not account for our experience, it is insufficient as a *descriptive* model, let alone a *normative* model.

      If, however, the map (model) we share to account for social interactions is coloured to account for the endless peaks and valleys of human experience, we are ALL better prepared for navigation.

      Life is competitive. Of that, we have infinite proofs.

      Of objective morality we have only appeal to authority as 'proof', which cannot ever satisfy criteria for the also-elusive objective truth. What is this question of the 'law written on our hearts' but those tendencies selected by that great pragmatic mechanism of evolution?

      The whole question needs reframing.

      In the meantime, we all get on with living as we are each equipped to do so. In your case, you balance the risk of stealing against the risk of starvation. The people you steal from are responsible for mitigating the risk of theft. Society always creates rules and norms to shape collective behaviour so you also risk exclusion because your actions disadvantage others.

      Morality is not the driver for human behaviour. Survival is.

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    9. The seven deadly sins:
      False morality
      Duplicity
      Apathy
      Cruelty
      Abuse of power
      Cultivated ignorance

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    10. I wish I had seen your comment. Pp was referring to my psychopath boyfriend. I am Leary of anything that espouses an objective anything.

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    11. "I make two dollars a day. There are 9 mouths to feed in my family and $2 doesn't sustain us. I steal from the market as I am able. Please talk to me about objective morality....We are to die at the hands of your objective morality"

      I clearly stated "Without compulsion." I'm not saying you're being compelled to - only you know that.

      "I am Leary of anything that espouses an objective anything."

      I can relate to this. I didn't believe in anything objective for 12 years. Now I do but that still doesn't mean it's easy to live accordingly.

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  4. Most people talk about "morality" as if there only exists one type. Most people have a morality that cannot stand the pressure of money and valuable things. As soon as these things "get in the way" of their morality, everything changes. Most empaths talk shite. They do the "talking" part, but dont do the "walking" part.

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  5. Personally as I look into myself and seek to be the person I am behind the mask of normalcy, the more I do the less I'm concerned with externally defined morality. I find that I have my own internalized set of morals untouched and untainted by the beliefs of others. If I'm doing any right or wrong, it is only within the context of my internalized morals.

    ESTP Sociopath

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    1. ESTP Sociopath-Do you abide by laws, or no?

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    2. I abide by rules and laws that make sense to me in the context of my own internalized set of morals; whether or not my intentions coincide with the rest of society's idea of objective morality is not my concern. I follow my own "code of honor".

      ESTP Sociopath

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    3. ESTP Sociopath-thank you for your reply, once again.:) How was your own "code of honor" established?

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    4. My "code of honor" was built and established from my own experiences growing up; besides what has happened to myself, I've been witness to a lot of needless suffering. I personally believe that I don't need to cause suffering unless it is truly instrumental to accomplish what needs to be done. No act of mine, even actions that conventionally are violations of the rights of others, goes undone without some direct benefit for myself or perhaps others. In fact many of my "crimes" are more often than not to the benefit of others on top of being beneficial to myself, it just happens to work out that way. I can't do absolutely everything alone; sometimes I have to manipulate and use others, and while they might not know any better the end result of my actions often help them in some way.

      Certainly there are times when my actions only directly benefit myself and no one else, but sometimes I simply can't help it. Humanity is one giant rat race to see who can acquire the most resources and power, and there's an abundant amount of evidence to prove that. Just walk down the street of any city and take a good look around you. I'm just another guy doing what I can to get the samethings many normal people chase after in life. Getting more money is like chasing a new high score at a arcade game; material goods like cars are trophies; getting a higher social position in your community is just another move on the chess board.

      ESTP Sociopath

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    5. The rat race only works when there's an audience who's not participating. When civilizations are starting off, the rat race is at its bare minimum - it has to be as otherwise a flourishing society would not exist. Once it makes it, more and more people start joining the race - some because they want to be in the "high club" and others because they've been emotionally raped by previous racers. Obviously the more people that join the race, the subscription rate increasing exponentially. What's going to happen when most of us are racing? Your entire foundation is destroyed - it's a dog eat dog world - literally. The "rat race" you see today will seem like paradise.

      Individualism in its extreme is the seed of destruction. It's really selfishness at a grand scale.

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    6. If being true to myself and being authentic means becoming that dark seed, so be it.

      "Help me, she screamed. We're trying to, said the darkness trying to smother the light of destruction."

      ESTP Sociopath

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    7. ESTP Sociopath-That is an interesting quote.:) Where is it from?

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    8. ^ ESTP Sociopath

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    9. I can't quite recall, but I think it was a quote off of M.E.'s twitter. It stuck in my mind and seemed relevant to the topic of the above conversation; it makes me think of the light (Jonaid's rant) as that of homogeneous destructive belief. Individualism means greater diversity, and without diversity we would not have so many cultures, races, religions... and even mental health disorders.

      So say if someone Wiccan came here and identified as such while posting here? Would we shun them? If I had to guess probably not.

      The darkness is consuming and void. It embraces you like no other lover, and every night that you're without someone else, she's always there. She's different, seemingly shallow but with so much hidden depth...

      That's what the quote meant to me, anyways.

      ESTP Sociopath

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    10. I said "individualism in its extreme" and clearly meant in terms of selfishness and pride. Individualism has nothing to do with cultural, religious and racial diversity as you put it. That was beyond stupid.

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    11. You're clearly missing my point. Those are aspects of individualism. Sociopathy is one of them. If it is a concrete aspect of my identity, much like culture, religion, and race, shouldn't I be able to express that? Or is that too selfish and prideful of me? I suppose I should be shameful of that... oh, wait, I'm not. I choose to respect other peoples individuality, and hold the same respect for myself. I have no need to feel guilt for my identity, unlike you Jonaid. You suffer under your mindset and culture of fear.

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    12. And if you're referring to individualism as primarily acting for oneself... yes, I do just that. Do I feel bad for admitting that? Not at all. What I do for myself frequently is to the benefit of those I use.

      My mother and brother tried to murder me. She even told me to kill myself because she doesn't love me. My father could care less, I he doesn't even acknowledge my existence. Friends? They're fickle, they come and go in my life.

      Who can I trust the most with my own life? None other than me.

      I've dealt with homelessness. I've had knives brandished and swung at me. Guns too. Violence. Sexual predators. Back stabbing hookers. Gangsters. I have my fearlessness and unbreakable confidence, my sociopathy, to be grateful of because I'm sure I wouldn't be here today without it.

      My pursuit of enrichment and fulfillment is through chasing total liberty and freedom, and forever always have self maintained image, confidence, and esteem independent of external emotional crutches. I don't need your god of narcissism to have any of that.

      ESTP Sociopath

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    13. By the way, I been smoking some really good kush; the strain is called Haze, a sativa marijuana. You should try smoking a little sometime, you'll lighten up.

      ESTP Sociopath

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    14. I've smoked weed for the past 6 years and only recently stopped. I didn't officially quit but since I started believing in God I don't feel like doing any intoxicants.

      As I've said before, I'm not judging you as an individual because I don't know what you've been thru and what's in your heart. All I'm saying is to justify what is objectively wrong - and sociopathy / Psychopathy are objectively wrong - is the main crime. It would be more honorable if you lived as a sociopath but criticised it hear in anonymity instead of defending it.

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  6. You can't have an ethical framework for dealing with the external world based entirely on an "internalized set of morals untouched and untainted by the beliefs of others." It's like looking at a map and saying "I'm going to disregard everything i see and decide for myself where California is."

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    1. Well, my "internalized set of morals untouched and untainted by the beliefs of others" has gotten me this far in life quite well, contrary to your perspective. I wouldn't be as successful as I am without my personal moral compass.

      ESTP Sociopath

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    2. Imagine looking at your life as a whole - you are an incomplete story as of yet. You only see what you have right now and think "I'm doing well." If you saw how the story plays out without sociopathy (even if it's from this point onward) you'd know that the ending is far better.

      Now imagine IF there's a God - there's more to you than just this story and the ending here will not be the end of you. I remember when I was at war with myself over deciding which way to go. Rationally I knew that turning sociopathic will not be nearly as fulfilling but I didn't care anymore - I wanted the "freedom," to never be hurt again and to be happy instead of depressed. Despite the desperation I could still see the harm. It's less and less likely that you'll be able to be truly rational once you head down this road. I imagine it hurts terribly to realize not only the destruction you caused others but also to yourself.

      God forgives all and you end up gaining from your experiences instead of lamenting them all the time.

      Think about it.

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  7. "Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come."

    Rumi

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  8. Happy Holidays to everyone! I´d say morality is more of a relative thing in my opinion. On the one side there are these general guidelines established by society in general, of what morality should be, which i think serve as means to achieve our mildly-functioning society (such things as not murdering everyone you just cause you feel like it), and it s better to follow them. On the other side, however,i strongly believe all other minor aspects and moral conundrums are strongly over apreciated. Take for example a stupid romantic situation: a girl (or guy,i dont judge) like you A LOT, but you wouldn t look at them twice. On the other end of the situation there s a girl/guy that you like, and likes you back. The 1st girl is prone the depression, and self hurt. Now the problem lies in the fact that if you follow what your desires (not impulses) and, lets say, get together with the 2nd person, the 1st one would probably harm herself. Why would i be consider to be an amoral person, if i knowingly choose what i consider to be best for me, also knowing the toll my action would have on the other person, just because i became unwillingly bound to the inmediate actions of a depressed, over feeling individual? Its not my fault she/he became obsesed, and it is in my best interest to be with the other person, why would it be considered amoral (maybe even criminal haha) in our society? i just dont fully get that. But i would like think that morals are relative.That people fail to see that, is part of the reason why manipulation is also frowned upon and classified as amoral (or another word used sometimes "cold") I find it to be means to an end. Stating that although i am more calculative than average individuals, im not a full blown sociopath (and i absolutely DO NOT mean that as an offense), i do have a degree of empathy,i do feel sad and other more "empathetical-person" emotions from time to time,i try to achieve an outcome with my decisions that does not hurt anyone if possible, even if it is not the fastest way to achieve my goals. Nevertheless i do take some pleasure in small manipulations :D haha
    PS: what are your favourite maniuplation techniques? i found myself, that body language mirroring and calling people by their title "such as friend" are the most subtle and usefull ones to create bonding.

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  9. Your example is weird and not necessarily an example of moral decision making. You are only responsible for the pain / suffering of another - be it a bf / gf, relative, friend or stranger, to the extent that you deliberately (including negligence) mislead them. If someone just happens to fall in love with you and get depressed because you don't reciprocate that's NOT immoral on your part.

    As for "small manipulations" - you see like most "sins" the act in it of itself isn't too big of a deal. It's just likely to lead to a lot worse. A lot of "small" manipulations add up to "big" manipulation.

    In the end, no matter what a person does, the greatest wrong and immoral act is to JUSTIFY the wrong action - no matter how trivial. You're not evil or cold if you manipulate sometimes but you don't need to pretend like it's all relative and perfectly fine.

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  10. Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah maybe that wasnt a perfect example, but is sort of a personal one (with more or less details of course). At least in my country (im not an english native speaker, therefore i do apologize for any mistakes made) some people didnt take too kindly the decision i made, said it was a bit inmoral; but others supported me and told me if anything happened it would not be my fault (although i honestly did not think it would be)...i dont know, maybe it is a cultural difference. I do agree with you though, the justification of a wrongdoing is plain wrong, and im definitively not giving me carte blanche to do what i please by saying it is all relative, just that there are more perspectives to things than the ones morality offers. I weigh the consecuences beforehand when i try to play people, what i mean by small actually, is that they d never come to any big harm to anyone. I m defintively not cold, although i dont express much feelings i do have them, like i said, I think i rely a bit more on the logical side of my brain than other people here do!

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  11. No need for apologies nothing here is personal. If I come across as strident it's only because I'm obsessed with not being confused or causing confusion.

    I may have been understood when I said morality is objective. What I meant is whether or not people realize it or if they disagree, there is always a way to do things which is the best / most moral way. How people behave and understand morality is different ways does not mean morality itself is now "subjective." It only means that people's UNDERSTANDING is subjective. I tend to believe that when things really matter everyone knows deep down what's right and what's wrong.

    Thanks.

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  12. I lost my husband to another woman 2 weeks ago after 27 years of marriage . We had a lovely marriage but he started a relationship with a co worker who chased after him . He is living away near his work and her and refuses to talk to me or to come home . I am devastated and am finding it hard to cope . I wish I did not love him and that I could move on but I can't . I don't know how to stop feeling like this I wish I didn't as its eating me away and I m starting to feel ill. I have degraded myself begging him to come home all to no avail. I became very worried and needed help. As I was browsing through the internet one day, I came across a website that suggested that Dr Frank Ojo can help solve marital problems, restore broken relationships and so on. So, I felt I should give him a try. I contacted him and he did a spell for me. tow days later, my husband came to me and apologized for the wrongs he did and promise never to do it again. Ever since then, everything has returned back to normal. I and my family are living together happily again.. All thanks to Dr Frank Ojo . If you need a spell caster that can cast a spell that truly works, I suggest you contact him. He will not disappoint you. if you have any problem contact him, I give you 100% guarantee that he will help you, This is his details, E-mail: Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com , Web site: http://lovespell2.yolasite.com . Mobile number +2348072370762. Thank you all for reading.

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  13. Marriage restoration..
    I lost my husband to another woman 2 weeks ago after 27 years of marriage . We had a lovely marriage but he started a relationship with a co worker who chased after him . He is living away near his work and her and refuses to talk to me or to come home . I am devastated and am finding it hard to cope . I wish I did not love him and that I could move on but I can't . I don't know how to stop feeling like this I wish I didn't as its eating me away and I m starting to feel ill. I have degraded myself begging him to come home all to no avail. I became very worried and needed help. As I was browsing through the internet one day, I came across a website that suggested that Dr Frank Ojo can help solve marital problems, restore broken relationships and so on. So, I felt I should give him a try. I contacted him and he did a spell for me. tow days later, my husband came to me and apologized for the wrongs he did and promise never to do it again. Ever since then, everything has returned back to normal. I and my family are living together happily again.. All thanks to Dr Frank Ojo . If you need a spell caster that can cast a spell that truly works, I suggest you contact him. He will not disappoint you. if you have any problem contact him, I give you 100% guarantee that he will help you, This is his details, E-mail: Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com , Web site: http://lovespell2.yolasite.com . Mobile number +2348072370762. Thank you all for reading.

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  14. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    ReplyDelete

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