Thursday, May 10, 2012

Psychopath brains differ even from ASPD

Reuters reports on how the brains of psychopathic criminals show distinctly less grey matter in the areas of the brain important for understanding the emotions of others.  These differences in brain structure were different even from other criminals who were diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD).  Other interesting selections from the article:

  • Damage to these areas is linked with a lack of empathy, a poor response to fear and distress and a lack of self-conscious emotions such as guilt or embarrassment.
  • Research shows that most violent crimes are committed by a small group of persistent male offenders with ASPD. . . . Such people typically react in an aggressive way to frustration or perceived threats, but most are not psychopaths, the researchers wrote in a summary of their study, which was published in the Archives of General Psychiatry journal.
  • There are clear behavior differences among people with ASPD depending on whether they also have psychopathy. Their patterns of offending are different, suggesting the need for a separate approach to treatment.
  • "We describe those without psychopathy as 'hot-headed' and those with psychopathy as 'cold-hearted'," Blackwood explained.

I love that distinction between "hot-headed" and "cold-hearted."  I'm going to have to start using those terms all of the time when explaining about how I don't quite consider myself to have ASPD.  And our buddy Bob Hare should be happy about this seeing as he is always going on about how the two are quite distinct.



143 comments:

  1. 1st !!!! you sons of bitches & Narcs !

    ReplyDelete
  2. I thought this had been quite clear all the time: some people end up as criminals after a fumbled and misshaped life experience; mostly in their early years. Others start criminality in their early years because it’s the obvious path to which their personal abilities, particularities and limitations direct them. For the second ones, efforts should be put to switch them to a totally different direction right from the very start. For the first ones, however, it’s more a question of avoiding with what is obviously going wrong or healing the clear and distinct wounds they show.

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  3. Jose do you like to suck the cock ?

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  4. I rather think it is a question of shunning any possible “taking of sides” before you start thinking about the matter. Empathy is an ability; it can be developed, it can even be “built in” within a computer software; science tries to understand it and it has already, if only partially. People with an advanced degree of experience of life can be quite better at empathizing than “innocent” people. Mark Twain said, wisely, “lead us into temptation” as a good help to be virtuous. He might be meaning that you cannot attain virtue unless you previously know about sin. I’d safely conclude from this that you cannot attain real empathy unless you understand the lack of it, which I don’t think is a mater of “there is empathy or there isn’t” but a question of degrees, there might be more or less empathy and that depends very much on your personal ability to achieve it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. " it can even be “built in” within a computer software"

      Hogwash!

      Delete
    2. Great post. Jose. Welcome to SW in which you will be a shining light in a sea of....................................... Well, you will find out.

      Delete
    3. I see, Monica,but if you know your way in internet this is the rule, not the exception.

      Delete
    4. Depends where you are

      Delete
  5. Jose do you feel empathy when you suck the cock ?

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  6. fMRI is able to detect even inconscious feelings. Of course Machines can empathize. Just connect an fMRI to a hand that can pat you on the shoulder and you have built an empathising machine.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. An fMRI is imaging technology, not robotics. Are you a sonographer Mr. Javier?

      Delete
    2. I just can't get this hilarious image out of my head, of an "empathetic" robotic arm flying backwards and adhering to the magnetic pull of the machine. :)

      Delete
  7. Empathy is a big problem, both psychologically and philosophically, because it is a mechanism very important religions (Buddhism, Christianity) have sacralised. It ranks real high in the value scale of almost all moral systems. It is therefore difficult to think about it without prejudice. To my mind you have to choose whether you sacralise something or understand it. I mostly favour the second option. Christian philosophers (and saints) like Edith Stein, for instance, go so far as to say that the real subject of an emphatic action is the object of it. After saying such a thing, you just can no longer think about the matter in a sensible way.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I suspect you lost the ability to think about anything in a sensible way a long time ago.

      Delete
  8. Can you explain this with a practical example, Jose?

    ReplyDelete
  9. do tall muscular men get more girls?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They'd be more likely to get this girl ;) lol

      Delete
    2. just the one with the long tongue

      Delete
  10. In the UK, the antisocial diagnosis isn't even used. What is reported on here? Dissocial personality traits? Conduct disorder?

    Is psychopathy being measured by the PCL-R? If so then the difference between 'antisocials' and psychopaths is surely Factor 1, as the second factor on the PCL-R relates to antisocial personality disorder. And don't forget the PCL-R doesn't distinguish a psychopath (defined using Hare's concept) from a malignant narcissist (a narcissist with acquired antisocial personality traits).

    ReplyDelete
  11. When we read about emotions we learn also how to feel them. You don’t feel the same things and you don’t express them equally in different stages of your life. This is particularly true about the way we feel other people feelings, that is, second hand emotions. In our early years we simply reflect rage if we perceive rage, or fear if we perceive fear. In our maturity we tend to interpret rather than to reflect the feelings and emotions others show. Interpretation takes brains, raw “feeling the feeling” doesn’t.

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  12. But then if you need “cold” knowledge and “cold” reflection to interpret what the other person is feeling and decide how to respond to it, you are desecrating love, which is a fear most religious people feel once they come to this point. “Thou will not sort out, ponder, choose, with your impure brain in the sacred field of empathy”. It is something that comes to you as a merciful donation by your creator, you cannot improve it, so please don’t even try.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Now, I get it - there have always been "hot headed" and "cold hearted" people but I always felt "evil" from the cold
    hearted as opposed to the hot headed. Could it be that the
    hot headed is wired this way and the cold hearted is truly evil because they calculate, manipulate and spend time with
    this evil. They perfect their game.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Natural or calculated, from the point of the victim it always feels as evil. For everyone else it could be 'such as life.' Ouch.

      Delete
    2. No, I never considered a hot headed act as "evil" when I was the victim. I just considered them as a
      loose canon - always, knew that they definitely had a
      problem. Not the case with cold heartedness - they
      were making a choice where they perfected it and nursed it. Definitely,evil

      Delete
    3. It sounds like you are making excuses for the "hot headed-ness" because you can relate to being emotionally overwhelmed. It would be hypocritical to hold someone to a standard you cannot attain, would it not?

      Making a calm choice thats not wrapped in emotional confusion seems more deliberate. But its not.
      People know what they are doing. Even if you're not.

      Delete
    4. No, I can't relate to being hot headed at all. I have compassion for them because they are out of control and making a fool of themselves. And in the
      long run will bring more harm on themselves.

      Delete
    5. Emotionally overwhelmed is not the same as hot headed.

      You ARE making excuses because you state they are "out of control" You imply that they are victims of their nature.

      My point is that they are not. That YOU are a victim of their nature by believing they are actually out of control.

      Delete
    6. I don't argue that its self destructive. But saying that one is more "evil" than the other is a waste of time. Two sides of a coin.

      Delete
    7. First, I make no excuses for hot headed individuals
      or that I am a victim to their acts. It appears that
      you want to think for me and your thinking is wrong.
      But are you saying that the hot headed people are not
      emotionally overwhelmed? explain

      Delete
    8. Excuse my bluntness, it comes across like I'm thinking for you. Not my intention.

      "I have compassion for them because they are out of control"
      "No, I never considered a hot headed act as "evil" when I was the victim. I just considered them as a
      loose canon"

      That comes off as excuses to me.

      Hot Headed Narcissists ARE emotionally overwhelmed, and they use it to their advantage. I'm saying they have more control over their state because they use it to manipulate people. Versus an empathic person who becomes emotionally overwhelmed, and has a much harder time being in control of themselves.
      Thats all I'm saying.

      Its not an attack. Relax. I am just noting the differences. And advising to treat "hot headed" people with the same caution you treat the "Cold hearted" Thats all.

      Delete
    9. The difference in the two is that at the time that
      a "hot head" acts it is not to his advantage unless it is done in private and still there can be repercussions. A "cold hearted" individual does their acts in private where they have honed their craft and will in all likelihood come out unscathed.

      And a empathic person CAN be in control of themselves
      and bring light and truth to the situation where an
      evil person can not.

      Delete
    10. Talking about advantage could make the matter become a little slippery. People who really and consciously seek their own advantage don't generally end up in jail

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    11. But a lot of psychopaths end up in jail, or the study that motivated this post could have never been possible.

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    12. And a lot of psychopaths become Dr's, lawyers, cops, CEO's etc etc etc.....

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    13. Sure, very right, because not all psychopaths are dumb, but some of them are.

      Delete
    14. Some people are dumb, some are not.

      Brilliant observation!

      Delete
    15. Anon 9;48- Did I say empaths cannot control themselves? I said that it would be difficult for someone to remain in control when they are emotionally overwhelmed. You seem to be really hung up on good vs bad. I can respect your need to better the world, but polarizing people makes it harder to understand and be effective.

      Would you believe me if I told you there are sociopaths out there with good intentions? Same with Narcissists. They don't often end up in jail, but end up blending in right next to you.

      Delete
    16. well, I'm sure there are well meaning psychopaths out there, it would be the contrary that would surprise me.

      Delete
  14. Hot headed seems to fit better an evil-doer uber-empath as opposed to a psychopath.

    Hard-headed? As in more bone than grey matter?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Jose
    I am missing a piece of what you are saying.I suspect you are not a native English speaker. If you could, please explain empathy, the object etc.
    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think I need to explain what empathy is. The object of empathy, according to Edith Stein, is the person with which we empathize.

      Delete
  16. Evil is not in the brain or the heart, but in the actions of men. Fighting evil, on the other hand, must be done with the brain, not with the heart. This seems to be hard to understand for many.

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    Replies
    1. Excellent observation.

      Jose, are you really a Jose, as in Spanish or a Latino?

      Delete
    2. Very nice. I watched a documentary called the Science of Evil. It explained that "evil" was more of an opportunity, than anything else.

      Delete
  17. ^And how do you combat evil with your brain?

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  18. You have to understand evil, just hating it is not enough. Conversely, Feeling love is not enough to promote good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like Jose. Hope he really is a male. His views are firm and gentle.

      Jose, do you have any type of personality disorder? How did you find SW?

      Delete
    2. I may well have some personality disorder, but I have never visited a pro on the matter, so I have no idea which one.

      Delete
    3. Given how articulate you are interesting that you are at a loss for words about yourself.

      Delete
    4. I'm at a loss for words that describe my syndroms, but I have learned a lot about myself without taking them into account.

      Delete
  19. do tall muscular men get more girls?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Evil is everything but simple. The faster you run away from it, the sooner you run into it at the turning of the corner.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Edith Stein...

    A Jewish born lady (1891-1942) turns atheist in her teenager years, gets a PhD at 25 years old in Philosophy (diisertation topic On the Prpblem of Empathy), and hits the glass ceiling by the boys on the faculty, becomes a Roman Catholic at 31 years old, enters a monastery at 42, asks the Pope for condemnation of Nazis, drawing attention to herself, and gets gassed by Nazis at 50.

    And, that's how yet another Saint is made.

    She would have been a scientist like most other Jewish PhDs of te time had she stayed Jewish and retreated to the USA> That atheist move in her pregnancy sure made a dent in her life.

    This is a good example of how self-made choices can f u up one day, as ME had posted earlier.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. pregnancy, lol... I meant her teenage years...

      Delete
    2. Edith Stein speaks about empathy in a religious sense. She was a disciple of Husserl, and a debtor of his concept of pure essences; she was interested in the essence of empathy; if you are interested in essences you no longer think, you just look for the right feeling.

      Delete
    3. How interesting, Jose. I am so glad you are here!

      Delete
    4. Thanks for the info in regards to Edith Stein. Looks like I have some new reading! :-)

      Delete
    5. Well, great, she's got lots of interesting thinking, and unthinking proposals for you.

      Delete
  22. First of all, I’d like to convey here my meaning: being a psychopath is no more an implacable destiny than being short sighted. What glasses are for the latter, is knowledge and thought for the former.

    ReplyDelete
  23. From Ukan to Jose. SW never ceases to amaze me.

    ReplyDelete
  24. You reversed your name and recipient LMAO

    ReplyDelete
  25. Replies
    1. That must be the upper empath person. Shot down, again.

      Delete
  26. You don't need a heart to be good. I'm convinced of this. On the other hand, very emotional people are able to perform acts of refined and disgusting cruelty.

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  27. Evil does not exist. Only idiocy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Strictly speaking we don't exist. We perform functions. When we stop, we die.

      Delete
  28. Anon 11:17
    "Evil does not exist. Only idiocy.

    Your trying to tell us that "they are all, idiots?" lol

    ReplyDelete
  29. because we have needs and hopes we speak about evil. Without them there would be no distinction between good and evil.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Hello, josé javier. You sound like you know many things about sociopathy/psychopathy, would you mind helping me a little bit?
    The thing is, that I am not sure if I am a socio or just something else.
    How can one be sure about it? All symptoms fits for me, my environment was perfect for this disorder to form, also my actions point to it (I tend to be a adaptive/principled one, because I had no problems with sadism :) ). Well everything fits, so... does it mean that I am a socio? I think that I am, but I might be wrong...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How would it help you, knowing that you are a socio or a psycho?

      Delete
    2. try to learn to know yourself. It takes a long time, and many experiences, and comparing yourself with others, reading, thinking. Even if you don't get to know yourself, that will be a very good practice. The more you know about yourself, the less you need labels like "psychopath"

      Delete
    3. Well
      1.) I just want to know, because it's interesting and I am curious about it.
      2.) It might help me to understand myself
      3.) I think it's important to know one's strengths/weakneses
      4.) I am just obsessed with finding the answer right now.

      I created some logical arguments (above), but I don't really know why do I want to know, I just do. (Well I am pretty sure, that I might be a socio, not psycho, but what if I am normal... :D )

      Delete
    4. Well, to be honest, I *know* I am one, but I refuse to believe that I have a disorder, because I don't feel that I would need to have a label, so that's why I still raise questions, create doubts. It's really hard to explain :D ...
      So since I can't make myself agree that I am sth like this, but I KNOW that I am not normal either, I write here, so other people would point me to one side or another.
      After this conclusion I don't think that this tactic will help to achieve anything, aguess I just have to keep on living and maybe raise this question for myself later (it took me a long time to diagnose this, because I wanted to be sure, but I just can't admit something like that, aguess I hide it even from myself).
      As you can see I am very confused, maybe I'm just craaaazyyyy :'D

      Delete
    5. I don’t think normality exists; most psychologists speak about scales and degrees in every mental or personality disorder. Most of us have disorders; maybe there is no order in anyone of us. If you sometimes derive pleasure from somebody’s pain, that wouldn’t send you out of normality, if you manipulate others that, either, wouldn’t be enough to brand a mark on you...

      Delete
    6. @Jose

      No responsibility, huh? I will not be reading your
      posts

      Delete
    7. It's funny to be mee :)

      Delete
    8. Why do you think you are abnormal? You are anonymous so can say.

      Delete
    9. Because all symptoms fit like a glove, I just feel that way. I wouldn't be here without a reason...
      What do you want? Personal stuff, well I am certain that I won't write any, because it won't benefit me, I already know it, lol
      -Mee

      Delete
    10. Deriving pleasure from the pain of others is very frequent in normal people. We see it all the time. Armed institutions, for one, need people who can do it. It doesn't mean that you have no responsibility, it is a fact, and you have to be conscious before becoming responsible for its consequences.

      Delete
    11. If it was to Mee...
      I'm cold as ice even when someone near me starts to feel pain for any reason, I simply don't care, unless I am curious about it, or screaming distracts/annoys me.
      I don't want do be a soldier, because its too risky, I would prefer staying alive :)

      Delete
    12. I have met some people who were unable to cry when everybody else was shedding a flood of tears over a parting friend or the end of a vacation period, or any other sad event. Well, that made them feel really awful, and I can understand why, especially in the case of girls, but I don’t think it should be so; you are not responsible for your feelings, and much less for the lack of them. If they don’t come, you should accept it and try to make the best of it, which is not necessarily taking advantage from the feelings of others.

      Delete
    13. I don't feel bad about it, I'm just stating the fact :)
      I have some minions with whom I am planning to take over the world, so, can I keep them?
      I don't know how can I build any ralationship without controling other person. It always was "gain as much as you can and give sth in return, so they wouldn't leave you, or just use them till you can and move on onto others later" for me :/ (unless I want nothing from a person, then I just ask for nothing and give nothing.)

      Delete
    14. What you say doesn't sound so strange, really, most people built relationships like that "take something, give something" About the minions I dont't know. They don't come cheap as of late so I suppose you must be well off. Have you got an army or just a handful of thugs ready to do your bidding?

      Delete
    15. I don't have an army, it would be hard to control them one by one. Also I noticed that some people like/want to be controled, is it really? I hope, that you realised that by "minions" I ment ppl that are very loyal to me, right? But they can be compared with thugs anyway :)
      Also I don't feel other people emotions but I observed them and am able to make logical assumption, I can make them feel save/satisfied, because then I can extract what I want from them much more easier and so on. Can we move on to another symptom, because I feel like I covered everything in this one...

      Delete
    16. Mee
      Jose makes a hell of a lot of sense.

      Delete
  31. But we can die and suffer, we have needs and hopes, and we speak about good and evil.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Jose

    Your as sick as your secrets

    ReplyDelete
  33. I read that the most violent offenders are diagnosed psychopaths in the prison system and are repeat offenders since therapy doesn't work on them. Please enlighten me otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A therapy that doesn't work is a bad therapy, just that. you cannot blame it on the patient.

      Delete
    2. Jose
      Do you think you have to have empathy for yourself before you can have it for anyone else?

      Delete
    3. Well its often repeated as fact that psychopaths aren't receptive to therapy and more likely to repeat offend, though there are dissenting voices about both. Intuitively both would depend on the combination of nature and nurture involved in each case, and the nature of the therapy.

      Statements like yours are problematic because of differences between psychopathy concepts, and because of the psychological differences that exist between psychopaths.

      Actually I'd question the obsession with violence, as violence is simply one means to an end as opposed to a psychological trait (such as impulsivity) that might lead to violence under certain circumstances.

      Delete
    4. I think that could be right. Knowing yourself could be a way of empathising with yourself. But the definition of empathy usually excludes self probing. One thing is sure: without introspection, you cannot empathise with anyone.

      Delete
    5. By self probing, do you mean riding your own ass i.e. picking at yourself?

      Delete
    6. But then imagine you look into yourself and discover no feelings. That doesn’t mean you are hopeless. You can understand feelings through descriptions and relations. For instance, you can explain tenderness as the pleasure of taking care of others. If doing that elicits no pleasure from you, it doesn’t mean it is useless to try.

      Delete
  34. I know about good and evil. The stupid bastards are good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shut up, Ukan. Shut your mouth and you may learn something. Sheeesh

      Delete
  35. A common mistake is the assumption that psychopaths are completely cold. They cannot be totally blind to other people feelings, or they would be unable to manipulate them (as it is the case with Spectrum Autism Disorder patients) they simply have a high perception threshold for feelings, which means other people feelings must be really acute for them to take notice.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. True Cleckleyan psychopathy does have an association with the autistic spectrum, ie semantic aphasia, atypical eye contact, delay in interpreting emotions in peoples faces. Its surely a variety of PPD itself.

      Delete
    2. I should add that these traits are independent of the association between Cleckleyan/factor 1 traits and narcissism, as well as ASPD/factor 2 traits. Its surely the autistic-type traits that distinguish the Cleckleyan from the malignant narcissist.

      Delete
    3. It's all about degrees, clearly. And it would be hard to pinpoint the "right" area in the scale. For mild cases of autism it's a hard life, really, as it is for psychopaths, but feelings may help you find your way or lose it, depending on the case, as rationale do. You can never depend on either of them. The best is using a system, whether you are an autistic person or not.

      Delete
  36. Very true about Autism! Never thought of that, but of course!

    ReplyDelete
  37. This is just a hypothesis, but it wouldn't surprise me that the supposed pleasure psychopaths elicit from causing pain is just their own way o having an emotional experience in a vicarious way.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, makes sense as with blunted empathy, one may feel dead. Is this what you mean?

      Delete
    2. Its associated with factor 2/ASPD/Dark Triad 'psychopathy' which is more nurture than nature. The abused abuse, it gives them an understandable sense of power and getting one back.

      Delete
    3. Anon 1:43
      "The aused abuse, it gives them an understandable sense of power and getting one back."
      Did we possibly abuse Jose or offend him? That is a
      serious question. geeeeeze

      Delete
    4. I'd say the abused abuses because that's the way he's been taught it should be. Many people, whether psycho or not, think alike. To them, the world is made up with lords and slaves. But that is ideology. We are able to live under different political systems. We are adaptable.

      Delete
    5. @Jose
      Adapt, Jose, adapt - please!

      Delete
    6. "Did we possibly abuse Jose or offend him? That is a
      serious question. geeeeeze"

      I am Anon 1:43 and I don't know who you or Jose are.

      Delete
    7. Don't argue with idiots, Jose. People might be able to tell the difference. I have learned a lot from you today.

      Delete
    8. Bill C.
      No one was wanting to argue but I'm certainly glad
      you learned, today.

      Delete
    9. Bill C
      Anytime!

      Delete
    10. What's happening?

      Delete
    11. Bill C
      When you call people idiots they make your joy dissappear!

      Delete
  38. I was not suggesting you became a soldier, Mee. Feelings are both beneficial and damaging, and lacking them in some occasions may be even a blessing.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Nobody is evil “at heart”, evil has nothing to do with heart, it has to do with decisions. If you try to take good decisions, you will find it easy to become a part of society; feelings by themselves doesn’t make you belong. In the long run and the big picture, your own interest and other people interest is pretty much compatible.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That is really good to know, Jose. Thank you

      Delete
  40. Jose
    Of all the SW posters, I never saw one like you. How did you find SW and decide to post?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Jose,

    Are you the attorney who helped feed and sexually abused the Cambodian disabled children?

    I remember how your eyes were shining when talking about them.

    ReplyDelete
  42. what about the "cold-headed" and "hot-hearted"?

    ReplyDelete
  43. here goes I'm outing a sociopath/psychopath now..his name is Joseph Meyers he lives in NY is about 31 yrs old and works at a hedge fund, graduated from Harvard Business School, and is someone capable of murder. not kidding. He is frightenining if you run into him run.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. probably a relation of mine, hence I post anonymously now

      Delete
  44. I'm not going to give more detail because he does stand out and if I give a physical description people will figure out whom I am describing..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Um, thank you for the heads up? Curious, why are you warning us?

      Delete
    2. Yeah out of over 7 billion people in the world I'm sure the slightest hint and we will totally know who he is! And knowing who he is is so dangerous because you know we have all the time in the world to go find him and fuck around with him or whatever. We've been waiting for this day forever

      Delete
    3. But yeah, a physical description is so much more dangerously revealing than HIS ACTUAL NAME AND SCHOOL.

      You better hope he doesn't regularly google his own name.

      Delete
    4. lol..well someone who is 6'7, brown hair, brown eyes worked at Lehman Brothers as an analyst. Ashton Kutcher look alike but way better looking I think he stands out..scary person though....you would never think so wholesome routine Mr. religous I want to be a rabbi routine.....

      Delete
    5. Sounds like my first boyfriend. Not even kidding. Except he's Goldman Sachs guy. And Irish, not Jewish.

      Delete
  45. I'm just kidding around.. kind of

    ReplyDelete
  46. Just putting the label "Sociopath" on someone doesn't make him capable of murder. Tolkien (and many other writers) said we are all dangerous, we are all capable of murder, if we are given the right motive, which will differ a lot (a great big lot) from one to another.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I have a question. If I hunt down every 1 of you and shove a knife through your throats and watch u bleed out do you die? Lol..... your all chodes. Wastes of life and breath. Disorder no. retarded yes. Most of u are not even socios just lame and want attension. If I had my choice id hunt u all down and kill u in public.... do everyone a favor and end ur life now!

    ReplyDelete

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