Friday, December 23, 2011

DSM-5 vs. PCL-R

A reader comments about the differences between the proposed DSM-5 and the PCL-R:
As far as sociopathy goes, the DSM-IV diagnosis was woefully inadequate. It provided no real insight into the disorder and lacked strong empirical evidence; that is why scholars such as Robert Hare and Theodore Millon have said that sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder are two independent constructs and why Hare went further to create the psychopathy checklist. While the psychopathic checklist is a much more accurate diagnostic tool, it also lacks empirical evidence. For one, it looks at personality as a binary construct. You either you have it or not and if not. It says psychopaths are both quantitatively and qualitatively different from non-psychopaths. But personality is not that clean cut. Everyone has psychopathic traits to a greater or lesser degree. It also doesn’t take into account the heterogeneity within psychopathy. According to Hare for and individual to receive a diagnosis in psychopathy they would have to score relatively high on factor 1 and 2, but that is far from true. Some patients would score high on the disinhibited component others on the antagonistic component and while some score high on both. There is abundant evidence that the impulsive-antisocial (disinhibited-externalizing) and affective-interpersonal (boldness-meanness) components of psychopathy differ in terms of their neurobiological correlates and etiologic determinants according to the work group of the DSM 5. So as far as the DSM and sociopathy researchers go, yes, there has been a disagreement between the two and up until now I think the PCL-R was the most useful when comparing it to antisocial personality disorder, but in all honesty, the DSM 5 seems to have a stronger scientific and empirical basis to not only psychopathy but personality as a whole. 
The DSM 5 seems to have a stronger scientific and empirical basis to not only psychopathy but personality as a whole. In contrast to the PCL-R, the DSM 5 derived its criteria from scientific data not theory. In a contested article by Skeem and Cooke, "Is Criminal Behavior a Central Component of Psychopathy? Conceptual Directions for Resolving the Debate," the two colleagues posit that the field of forensic psychology has prematurely embraced Hare's Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) as the gold standard for psychopathy, due in large part to legal demands for a tool to predict violence. Yet the PCL-R's ability to predict violent recidivism owes in large part to its conflation of the supposed personality construct of psychopathy with past criminal behavior, they argue: 
“[T]he modern justice context has created a strong demand for identifying bad, dangerous people…. [The] link between the PCL and violence has supported a myth that emotionally detached psychopaths callously use violence to achieve control over and exploit others. As far as the PCL is concerned, this notion rests on virtually no empirical support…. [T]he process of understanding psychopathy must be separated from the enterprise of predicting violence.” 
Criminal behavior weighs heavily in the PCL's 20 items because the instrument emerged from research with prisoners. But using the PCL-R's consequent ability to predict violence to assert the theoretical validity of its underlying personality construct is a tautological, or circular, argument, claim Skeem and Cooke. Or, as John Ellard put it more directly back in 1998: 
"Why has this man done these terrible things? Because he is a psychopath. And how do you know that he is a psychopath? Because he has done these terrible things." 
All in all, the PCL- R tends to do a better job measuring criminality. Not psychopathy, which is a personality disorder and can’t be adequately recognized by a set of twenty criteria combined with an arbitrary diagnostic threshold. (That threshold being 30). 

202 comments:

  1. Show me a psychopath that doesnt comit crimes and ill show you a picture of muhammad.

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  2. It seems they are getting rid of a heap of labels, including the schizoid. In a way it makes sense because if it doesn't bother me or harm anyone else much, it can hardly be a disorder, right? But the real question is: how can I survive in a modern society without a psychiatric label?

    That was sarcasm, by the way. I've never written in any of the schizoid forums and I don't need a support group to belong to or identify with anyhow. Guess I will go with empathy-challenged social recluse if it becomes a problem for somebody.

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  3. "Crimes" are a social construct, anon.

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  4. Your face is a false construct.

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  6. For me to understand anything, I have to get behind it's eyes. Words, alone, won't do it.

    This is how I see, behind the eyes of the sociopath. Tell me what you think.

    The sociopath has a constructed mask, as we all do. Every person has to have a social mask or he would be put away. However, the co-dependent, like I, has a stopping point under the social mask where a "self" will be felt. This self has an identity. It thinks and it feels. It exists SEPARATE from the social mask. It has it's own form and shape which is fairly strong.


    The sociopath has more of an amorphous shape in this internal self. Sometimes, it may be in a container shape and more solid, but often, it oozes out in to complete shapelessness. In those times, the sociopath feels as if he could melt away to nothing.

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  7. WE RULE THE WORLD!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZcs22Iru2w

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  8. Rick Perry = Obvious psychopath.

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  9. Interesting theory, Caroline. I'm not sure if I understood what you meant but it made me think of another theory (don't remember who it wrote or the wording exactly) that suggested that there is really no personality to speak of under the sociopath's various social masks. Just a handful of primitive proto-emotions and urges.

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  10. @Nothing Man I was wondering about that, too. What do people think?

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  11. true socios actually have a chosen destiny. these are the chosen ones. like hitler etc

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  12. Hitler wasn't a sociopath

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  13. Rick perry is just an idiot, nothing more.

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  14. Hitler was not a socio? Are you a moron?

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  15. Anon -> He wasn't a sociopath. I could explain you why if I even cared. Probably some other guy will explain you why.

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  16. This site is so freaking awesome. Thank you ME and Merry Christmas.

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  17. Rick perry is an IRL troll, as all socios are.

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  18. http://zzzlist.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/heeeeeeerrrrres-eva/

    This is Hitler's girlfriend.

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  19. I def think it needs to be looked at as more of a continuum, with psychopathy toward the extreme end of the antisocial spectrum. Plenty of apd assholes out there commiting minor crimes, not using violence, just amoral and interpersonally exploitative and smart enough to control impulses or redirect them in order to maintain their freedom and hide their shallowness.

    My ex, who I am pretty sure is a sociopath (and he knows I think so) said in response to being called one (after a convo on how he thinks it is perfectly acceptable to be a "puddle jumper" moving from one shallow relationship to another without concern to who he hurts) said "I'm just not a woman" implying that expecting a man to have any emotional depth is my fault and then asked if I ever met a man who wasnt a sociopath. I said of course and he laughed and said I just didnt know them well enough.

    I swear between all the socios & narcissists and one the other end, the bpd and codependent dudes, I swear I think about lesbianism more and more each passing day. I am not sure which is worse... a man who wants to fuck me silly and strangle me while he cums without much thought about me as a human or a whiny crying "please dont leave me" type who also objectifies me on a pedestal. Meh.

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    Replies
    1. Lesbian here
      I don't want your fucking drama
      you sound like a controlling judgmental bitch

      Delete
  20. @8:32

    yeah.


    Date older.

    Get them when they've been divorced, and they'e had their heart broken enough times. Maybe they have a life, their children from their first marriage keep them occupied. They want to respect your alone time cuz they remember how they wanted it from their kids and ex being such pains in the ass. They want to have a second go at "life", but keep their independence, they'll fuck you very day to keep you too, cuz chances are they know by now women have sex drives too. (Who'd have thunk?) They'll have accumulated enough cash so they don't need yours, they want to see the world from a child's eyes again, which makes them appreciate your youth, they'll want to travel, take you on vacation (who wants to travel without sex after a day of sightseeing?)

    But get them while they still have energy before they will slow down. --People are living healthier nowadays.

    Everyone says they treat their second wives better that the first.

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  21. Anon female -> You're the one who chose them. You can blame it on yourself, next time just take a normal boring idiot.

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  22. LOL last two posters

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  23. 8:52

    lol! They'r'e smarter when they're a little older, too. Boring , not necessarily so.
    They want to experience life to its fullest before they croak. Nothing boring about a man wanting to fucking live and breathe after a life of hell.

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  24. I am going for an older one.

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  25. Is there such thing as a 'normal' guy? Ive never met one! They seem like they're all either dbags or crybabies!

    Im settling for my ex. At least I know I cant hurt his feelings, since he doesnt have any. Sex with sociopaths is better lol. As long as you use them more than they use you ;)

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  26. Divorced men have even more baggage and trust issues and disillusionment up the wazoo. Then you also have the mid-life crisis to deal with. Not quite sure it gets much better as they get older.

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  27. DON"T tell me about sex with sociopaths when I don't have one.

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  28. I should say settling for now. I know I eventually want a 3d relationship with someone capable oh human emotion. Until I find one, occasional hardcore fucking will get me by when I tire of my toys.

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  29. Lol Caroline sorry! And he is older (almost 40) but because hes a socio, hes like being with a 25 year old. In every way ;) Im 34 and starting to think I need to find a 50 year old to find a man who has some emotional intelligence. My socio is emotionally retarded but I know it now, so it isnt a threat.

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  30. Anon 10:07 Can you give examples of being emotionally retarded?

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  31. I think the problems with the women above have to do with yourselves, not the men out there. There are men out there who you can have decent stable relationships with. Maybe even exciting fun relationships.

    The issue is that you associate men with cheaters, sociopaths, narcissists, callous, neglectful, etc. You need to change how you look at relationships and men in general. People who continually find themselves in bad relationships have developed their own negative pattern. The man/women you had a relationship with is not what you should focus on. They don't matter. Focus on yourself.

    When you associate cheating and non-loving relationships with a man or crying basket cases to women, that is what you will subconsciously seek out. You won't find anything but bad relationships. In the end you will have to shut down and be stuck with sex toys or one night stands.

    The reason you don't change those associations is because you feel that if you do take that risk and give 100% in your relationship that you will get taken advantage of. So instead of giving a 100%, you give 50% and you end up with someone else who is giving 25% or 0%. Nobody in the 100% club is going to date a 50%'r. Even if they do, you will suck away at their commitment because relationships are paced by both people. Like if you are jogging with someone and they all of a sudden start slowing down.

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  32. Emotional retardation:

    Assuming that all relationships are doomed from the start.

    Not having a problem with using other people as means to an end.

    Seeing nothing wrong with professing love to someone you dont really love (my ex likes to say theres many types of love and I remind him that love of a person shouldnt resemble love of an object).

    Cheating without care of who it hurts.

    Assuming everyone else is also emotionally retarded too so it doesnt matter who you do what to.

    Blaming others when they get upset when you were the asshole to begin with!

    He also dates single moms usually (I was an exception that he prob wont repeat) because they are more desperate and will put up with more shit.

    Emotional intelligence involves approaching relationships as equal partnerships. Friendships. Taking responsibility for ones own life and emotional states and not taking advantage of others. Not seeing the world and interpersonal relationships specificially as Dom/sub. Im tired of all the Dommy socios/narcs and the subby bpd/codependent boys.

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  33. Anon 10:39 LOL Great points and thanks!

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  34. Anon Isn't it hard to even have sex with a person if you have little respect for him? Doesn't it take the attraction away?

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  35. Lol Caroline glad to be of service. Im not perfect never said I was. I have a terrible track record myself. I am recovering bpd. My emotional intelligence was stunted for years. Ive been blooming over the last year. My recent socio was a bit of a setback, but once I was able to figure out his true nature, I felt a lot more sane (its maddening expecting someone to be a real person when they are incapable). I cant tolerate the codependents at all. It reminds me too much of how Ive been most of my life. Im not afraid of loss anymore tho, so that makes things a lot easier. If they dont like me they can fuck off.

    Im directing my loving energy towards volunteering for charities instead of fruitless love for socios/narcs (which has been my past patterns). Im actually fulfilling myself independently for the first time ever. Ok, except for the occasional fuck session with the ex. A girl has to get her kicks from time to time.

    Just like I diet but I still allow myself the occasional hamburger or ice cream.

    But I really do want a real relationship at some point. Until I am sure I can have one without walking all over a man (prob why I tend toward socio/narcs because they don't let me) I will be alone. I am not socio and cannot bear the thought of toying with someone else's emotions.

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  36. Emotional Retardation:

    Seeking out damaging relationships

    Blaming others for your own issues

    Refusing to introspect

    Obsessing on your ex boyfriende

    Becoming stagnate

    Your not tired of seeing relationships as dom/sub. You are still in one. In all reality you are just emotionally crippled and using your sex with your ex boyfriend as a crutch. You are the one who is fucking retarded.

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  37. Oh Caroline, no. Hate sex is just as powerful if not more so. And I do love him. I know he's broken. He's as good as he can be. He could be a lot worse. Really. Im sure its the bpd. If I was "normal" maybe not. I think I have too much fear tied in with my sexual wiring.

    We have amazing chemistry. Always have. Its toned down a bit yes, knowing he cannot be more. Thats more because I'm finally maturing myself. :( gonna grow out of his reindeer games soon. Oh well. A tradeoff.

    I do maintain hope that there can be passion without personality disorder. Im excited to find out!

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  38. Lol Ukan trying to get a rise. You must be a resident socio ;) yes there is truth to that. Except I am very introspective always have been. I am not retarded. I was in that there is no doubt.

    Great thing about not being a socio is that there is room for emotional evolution. Id recommend it, but since you're not capable, its pointless. Keep on selling crack to fourth graders or whatever it is you do. Im sure your life is way more fulfilling than mine.

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  39. No actually I'm being lighter than usual. My life seems like it is a lot more fulfilling than yours. I have a strong relationship and I have had it for over two years. We are not talking about my life though. We are talking about yours, since you decided to put it out here. If you don't want input shut the fuck up.

    Everyone has different gifts. You keep focusing on the 'socio'. It must be easier to focus on sociopaths than it is to focus on yourself. If you had so much introspection, cunt, you would not be here. You would have a relationship that is worth talking about. Right now all I've heard from you is justifications to keep repeating the same mistakes and running the same patterns in your life that you complain you are unsatisfied with. To compound that you are even telling me that I am the one with the problem which is laughable. I'm not the one crying about men and women. I guess it's easier to point the finger at everyone else instead of looking at yourself for the issues.

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  40. Don't Listen to UKan. He is an IdiotDecember 23, 2011 at 11:33 AM

    Nuff said

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  41. Wow such eloquence. Name calling. How third grade of you.

    I am introspective enough to know that I am not ready for a relationship now because I have a conscience. I am not going to parasite myself like you have.

    These 'paths forget that without the superficial charm in cyberspace they just come off as childish bullies.

    I am not whining anyway. I am conversing. And if you dont like it you can stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalala like the child you are.

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  42. Theme Songs for SW RegularsDecember 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM

    UKans Theme Song


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qlA2l8tWoU

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  43. Hahaha, do people really still say "cyberspace"? That's so adorable.~

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  44. A little bait for those of you who try to 'figure me out':

    It has occurred to me that my father is a textbook schizoid. No doubt about it.

    That is all.

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  45. Explain your father, Medusa, like what did he do? Which parent was jewish, too?

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  46. Frank is giving up the possee and going to go out on his own. None of the cool guys except Gary wanted to be part of it, so Frank is walking away. Merry Christmas.

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  47. PS glad I could amuse you. I also say neato and rad and bitchin.

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  48. @UKan since Frank has given up on cool guys like TNP, do you want to join?

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  49. I am introspective enough to know that I am not ready for a relationship now because I have a conscience. I am not going to parasite myself like you have.


    How telling. So you think you need to not have a conscience in order to be in a relationship?

    I'm not parasiting off my wife, so don't use me as an example or comparison to your failed relationship with your loser boyfriend gone fuck buddy.

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  50. It has occurred to me that my father is a textbook schizoid.

    According to Nothingman your father will no longer be anything but a social recluse. Come May 2013you will again become a mystery.

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  51. So you think you need to not have a conscience in order to be in a relationship?

    That's what I thought she meant at first, too, but I think she meant that she has conscience enough to not get in relationship when she knows she'll probably just cause problems for others.

    According to Nothingman your father will no longer be anything but a social recluse.

    He always has been. I never expected anything else.

    Come May 2013you will again become a mystery.

    I don't understand what this is supposed to mean.

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  52. I haven't been around or paying much attention so I don't know what Nothingman's story is.

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  53. Once they taste it, they'll come back for more, soon or later it will happen and they know they want it.

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  54. Ukan attacks anyone who is vulnerable. He attacks someone who does not want to be vulnerable. You are a fucking waste of cellular matter.

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  55. Good Day all =)

    Nothing Man is Schizoid, yes? yes.


    ::sigh:: I just started baking and for once, I wish I was done already.

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  56. DSM V is coming out in may 2013. They are eliminating schizoid. I was saying if that's how they figure you out then in 2013 you will be shrouded in mystery again.

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  57. That's what I thought she meant at first, too, but I think she meant that she has conscience enough to not get in relationship when she knows she'll probably just cause problems for others.


    Oh ok, that makes sense. No, she certainly isn't. That's what I'm trying to tell her. It's not that all the guys out there are complete pricks or all the girls out there are whiny little whores. It's that she is broken and thus is her view on the rest of society.

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  58. On the post:

    I think a lot of psychological studies of sociopaths have been focused on negative aspects and impacts of sociopaths rather than how sociopaths can positively benefit themselves further.

    Sociopaths are not going to become model citizens. They are not going to have normal relationships. They are not going to pick up a hammer and go to work at the construction yard. They are not going to stop manipulating. They are not going to look at the rest of the world as their equal. With any personality you need to learn ways of making everything about yourself into a strength. It seems psychology has mainly found ways of identifying and demonizing sociopaths mainly because it's focus on the criminal element.

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  59. You got a point there, Ukan.

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  60. Caroline, don't egg him on!

    @ Ukan lol not looking at how they can benefit themselves that's a laugh. That's all they do. That's the point. They aren't a part of the social construct. They work against evolutionary development of the species. They only work to take care of themselves (if work can be used here rather figuratively).

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  61. The reason you don't change those associations is because you feel that if you do take that risk and give 100% in your relationship that you will get taken advantage of. So instead of giving a 100%, you give 50% and you end up with someone else who is giving 25% or 0%. Nobody in the 100% club is going to date a 50%'r. Even if they do, you will suck away at their commitment because relationships are paced by both people. Like if you are jogging with someone and they all of a sudden start slowing down.


    YES!


    I believe that if a man wants you badly enough, he will do what it takes to try to understand you.

    When a real man decides you are what he wants, he will do the math. Do not settle for someone who won't do that.

    Let him jog at your pace once in a while. See if he'll follow. Then if he gets ahead, try to meet him, and if you have a cramp, say so. His response is what you should pay attention to. ( < Men do this kind of testing all the time to see how needy a woman is, btw.)

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  62. Medusa 957
    you have to find a divorced man whose ex was crazier than you are.

    You become his new and interesting fresh garbage for him to sift through lol

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  63. not that you are crazy.. I mean me, of course.

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  64. Or you can just hide your crazy until he's hooked and it's too late for him to let go of you easily =P

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  65. Make him addicted, Haven? For SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  66. ::Laughs;: I'm just going to take that as sarcasm because this is my current running theory.

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  67. Men are so easily manipulated. It's almost no fun. Almost ;)

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  68. It's funny you call me juveneille for calling you names, when you can't understand anything I'm saying past the primary level. I said that I think a lot of psychological studies of sociopaths have been focused on negative aspects and impacts of sociopaths rather than how sociopaths can positively benefit themselves further. I didn't say that sociopaths should focus on how to benefit themselves, that is already covered innately. The reason I say this is because you can't change anybody. You can only improve people. If you focus on trying to get a sociopath to do something for the benefit of society you will fail. Pychology has been focusing on that. On identifying who is dangerous and how to contain them. It's no wonder that therpay does not work on sociopaths that are having psychological issues.

    For dumb bitter cunts like yourself, you can't see past the fact that sociopaths aren't like you. They have low empathy. You stated earlier they are emotionally retarded. Funny. Yet for all of this retardation they seem to have, you are the one who is getting fucked. I wonder, what level of competence do you feel that you have, Miss?

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  69. I was saying if that's how they figure you out then in 2013 you will be shrouded in mystery again.

    Ah, gotcha. Awesome. What would I ever do around here if I couldn't continue to annoy everyone with my aloof mysteriousness.

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  70. Just because someone can easily manipulate another doesnt mean they arent emotionally retarded. In fact, manipulating others is pretty emotionally retarded in and of itself. Not that I am exempt from that. Ive done my share of manipulating and "fucking" others. Ive also felt bad about it, which does make me a little different. And I am consciously not allowing myself to plow over others because it isnt helpful to me or them.

    And yes, I chose to submit myself to cheap thrills now and again. It is a step up from how I was. That was, seeking them out. When I got with this last bf, it was because I thought he was a good guy. Should have known he was a dbag or I wouldnt have been attracted to him.

    So yeah, Im working on my shit so I can be a better human all the way around. For me, for my future lovers, for my friends, family, society as a whole. I may not agree with society as a whole, but being antisocial and just lumping everyone into a category (less than) isnt the way.

    Yes, most people are idiots who prefer to allow others to do the thinking. I am in a profession where I do all of the thinking for a lot of people beneath me, so at the end of the day, sometimes it is nice to shut off my brain and be a fucktoy. I am also recovering bpd as I have said, so that is a pattern I am working on. After all, fucktoys tend to only attract fuckers.

    Im sure you're hella sexy and charming, if even in your own mind, Ukan, but it doesnt translate here.

    I might be broken, but I am repairing. It is possible. I have even read it is quite common, that even apd folks tend to mellow with age.

    Question is, what are you doing? You dont even see your bs as a problem, do you? You think the rest of us should just adapt to suit your needs. How are you making those self improvement strides you claim psychology refuses to acknowledge?

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  71. They are going to dump a lot of old labels come 2013. Like the paranoid pd - I was strong with those traits as well. Only the most commonly diagnosed pd's are staying as labels, the oddballs will have to settle for "Personality Disorder Trait Specified".

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  72. Sociopaths don't feel bad, or nothing when they manipulate others, they feel good about it.

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  73. I've never understood the PCL-R's seemingly arbitrary 30 point threshold. How would a 29 not be one, you know? Personally, I think it's more valuable as a high-risk prisoner assessment than diagnosing a psychological disorder.

    Laws and rules usually belong to one of three categories. Protecting personal boundaries, protecting the weak from the strong, and protecting private interests. Any psychopath, no matter how "well-adjusted" is going to break rules and laws in all three categories. They may not constantly do as such, may only favor one category, et cetera, but it's going to happen. When laws defy the natural order, psychopaths defy the law.

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  74. Neither do I, yet I don't think I'm a sociopath. Everyone manipulates to a degree.

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  75. "Neither do I, yet I don't think I'm a sociopath. Everyone manipulates to a degree."

    True, but socios manipulate on a constant basis. Without knowing. There whole personality is based on domination.

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  76. i want to have a drink with a socio. i'm a narc, but i don't get along with other narcissists.

    there are no other socios in my town, only phaggot empaths and borderlines.

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  77. Jim, as long as you buy all the drinks and dont mind getting assaulted afterwards (maybe even sexually) I am sure you wont have trouble finding true happiness with a socio of your very own.

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  78. How are you making those self improvement strides you claim psychology refuses to acknowledge?


    Psychologically I'm doing plenty. I'm trying to change behavioural patterns that I don't like and associate the new ones with positive associations. Take example I like to smoke weed to calm down sometimes when I get to angry. I decided I didn't want to smoke weed anymore because it makes me forget things. Instead, now I'm enclosing myself in a room and listening to my favorite music and doing breathing excersises until I'm not frustrated with whatever I am frustrated with.

    I have the habit of tearing down my wife. Instead of doing that I'm interrupting my behaviour by doing something silly. In this case I call her a 'constipated potato' and we both end up laughing. Pretty soon I'm calm enough to resolve the conflict.

    When I procrastinate I decided to spin in a chair until I'm dizzy and stand up to interrupt myself.

    I have a lot of things I'm doing in my life to move forward and achieve my goals and I have a lot of psychological tools at my disposal.


    Question is, what are you doing? You dont even see your bs as a problem, do you? You think the rest of us should just adapt to suit your needs.

    I really don't see anything as a problem unless it effects me personally. When that happends I blow up and bring down every ounce of fire in me until that problem is removed. I always end up getting my way in the end, so no I don't see myself as having any problems. Isn't the point in life getting whatever you want, when you want it?

    I also agree with you. People should adapt to meet my needs. Some people have no purpose. I give them purpose and I try to keep them on track.

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  79. Ted Bundy: How does a person … how does a soldier deal with war?

    Hugh Aynesworth: Well, he has the justification built in, you see, there.

    Ted Bundy: So does the mass murderer.

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  80. Weird question for the ladies. Has a guy ever told you that you shake every time he touches you?

    Every guy I've ever been with tells me this. I don't know what this is.

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  81. Just because someone can easily manipulate another doesnt mean they arent emotionally retarded. In fact, manipulating others is pretty emotionally retarded in and of itself. Not that I am exempt from that. Ive done my share of manipulating and "fucking" others. Ive also felt bad about it, which does make me a little different. And I am consciously not allowing myself to plow over others because it isnt helpful to me or them.

    Well that's all subjective now isn't it? Emotionally retarded would be the definition of someone who has BPD. Sociopaths are pretty good at mastering their emotions. Manipulation requires that you not only control your emotions, but be able to control other's emotions as well on the fly. Manipulation is a neccessary tool in the world if you want to have any influence on someone. For you to reject it out of hand is actually what retarded would mean.

    wv emprob

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  82. What I find funny is that psychopaths are always the perfect scapegoats for all evil that is going on in the world, like they have the monopoly in it or something. For example when a serial killer that doesn't fit the criteria gets caught the psychologists will go to great lengths to fit whatever they have with psychopathy, even if the person obviously has only a few traits associated with psychopathy.

    And when a brave psychiatrist suggests that "look, I think this person would better fit under the criteria of..." all the PD communities start screaming and shouting that no, he can't be like us, we are not evil like him, he must be a psychopath! And the pressure forces the psychiatrist to fold that okay, he must be a psychopath, but with strong traits from PD X.

    So in it's present state psychopathy is a synonym for criminality or "evil" and not much more.

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  83. But psychopaths are evil. If you go by the standard definition of evil. A P wouldn't call it evil though. He'd say he was just more cool headed and in control than the rest.

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  84. "Emotionally retarded would be the definition of someone who has BPD. "

    Thanks UKan. Borderlines aren't always out of their fucking minds every second of the day. It's just a lot easier to set us off with more extreme reactions. I'm generally able to control my outward emotional displays extremely well.


    That said, Borderlines are known for being manipulative specifically because of the kind of emotionally outbursts that we're so known for. The dramatics of it are what people consider our manipulative behavior because it's generally directed to get a response or reaction from someone. Most Borderlines find calling them maniupulative offensive though because they don't actually set out with manipulation as a conscious intent. They don't set out thinking "I'm going to manipulate this persons attention by telling them I'm going to kill myself"... they get so emotionally overwhelmed that they act out, and the resulting cry for attention is the manipulation. It's completely out of control.

    That said, I'm consciously manipulative when I'm in a relatively calm state, but I'm not sure taht's a by product of my Personality Disorder so much as just a part of my personality. You be the judge.

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  85. haven if every guy tells you this then there must be a grain of truth in it

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  86. @Haven

    Psychopaths can seem over reactive sometimes, but you will get the sense that they are acting. Of course, only if you are aware that they are a p. I think it's impossible to bother a P on a deep level. Simply because they just don't give a shit.

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  87. @Anon 3:18

    Why call them psychopaths then? Why not just call them "evil people" and get rid of all the confusing pseudo scientific labels altogether?

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  88. I do believe that psychopaths are more sensitive to criticism, in comparison to normal people, but they externalize the criticism (how dare they) It's why you see these psychopathic mass murderers lashing out and pwning everything in sight.

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  89. Yeah its easy to master ones emotions when they barely exist to begin with. While you only see others as toys to be manipulated, emotional intelligence regards others as humans with their own issues. An emotionally mature person is conscientious about how their words and actions effect others... and not just for their own personal benefit, but for the benefit of the relationship and the parties involved. Sounds like you have a little inkling of that since you are moderating your hatefulness towards your wife, but is that because you care about her as a person or because it makes life easier for you? Also, would you afford that to anyone other than her? Is she just an extention of yourself at this point?

    Yes, in the past, I overreacted to the slightest perceived harsh words but a part of my journey is not internalizing others as well as not pushing my shit onto others. It is good to see you are making strides. Maybe there is hope for us all.

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  90. @NM

    I dunno. Everything has labels nowadays. Most people would still call a psychopathic family member evil, or soulless, because they have no clue about personality disorders and that the family member may be afflicted with such.

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  91. Haven, not every guy says that. Most dont notice. Only ones who make me tremble are the ones who soak my panties with the slightest touch. Most guys do not fit that category. Those that do, make me tremble. The really nasty ones seem quite turned on by it. Fear response? Not sure.

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  92. But my point was that even if "psychopathy" is nothing more than a scale of how "evil" a person is in a modern society, the PCL-R test is not sufficient method to measure it because clearly there are some very evil people out there who don't fit the criteria of psychopathy.

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  93. I remember him talking to me about how he was so mortified that his family drove these sensible, ugly ramblers, the model of automobile. And that his family didn’t have a lot of money, and how he was jealous and resentful of kids in school who had more things that he did. It’s a very early sign that Ted has this sort of narcissistic fixation on things, and on possessions, and of course possessions becomes a very key word later on in his life.

    - Stephen Michaud

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  94. "very evil people out there who don't fit the criteria of psychopathy."

    How is that possible?

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  95. Frank went to the pet store and got Frankfurt a rawhide chew. Merry Christmas

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  96. @Anon 4:07

    Like many of the serial killers for example. The psychiatrists make commendable efforts in trying to fit their histories and personalities under the "psychopath" label, but the truth is that there are many who just don't fit if you think of it logically. But you would say that a serial killer, if he is not delusional and knows what he's doing, is an "evil" person, would you not?

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  97. Yeah its easy to master ones emotions when they barely exist to begin with. While you only see others as toys to be manipulated, emotional intelligence regards others as humans with their own issues.


    Wrong. You are mixing up Emotional Intelligence with empathy. Emotional intelligence is actually a model to identify and control your emotions and the emotions of others. If you are using that model as proof of who is emotionally retarded I have to go ahead and say that borderlines are emotionally retarded naturally. Sociopaths have emotions. They lack empathy. I know just what to say to make you feel however I want you to. You should know from your last relatioship. I don't even plan it out. I just want you to feel certain way and the words come out.

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  98. I think we all have evil within us. That is a given. I suppose that for "evil" people, they don't have the constraints on it that "normal" people do it.

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  99. "haven if every guy tells you this then there must be a grain of truth in it"

    Oh I believe them, I just am not sure why it happens.

    Every guy I've been with in the last 10 years has told me this. Every guy I've been with hasn't had the same effect on me. Some drive me crazy, some barely hold my attention, but they've all said it at one point.

    idk if it's a fear response. Most see it as a turn on, like I'm weak in the knees or something. This isn't always the case though. idk.

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  100. @nothing man

    No I'd call that person a psychopath. After remorselessly murdering people, time after time and having the ability to rationalize the act. A hallmark of a psychopath, is that they rationalize harmful behaviors on others.

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  101. That's what psychopathy basically means, evil. Nowadays a person who is very self centered would be deemed narcissistic. So yes, all extremely wicked people would be psychopaths.

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  102. A hallmark of a psychopath, is that they rationalize harmful behaviors on others.

    No, that's the hallmark of humanity as a whole.

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  103. @Anon 4:19

    Then it's the PCL-R test that must be faulty, because believe it or not, some of these guys would score way under 30 that is required for the official psychopathy label.

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  104. i do know that psychopaths have some sort of major role in society. they aren't there for nothing, but it's hard figuring out what's their natural cause. population control, perhaps?

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  105. @NM

    Probably, however, would be rare for a psychopath with a lack of empathy, to not have the other characteristics of psychopathy. Lacking empathy stems from a narcissistic self absorption. So then you would be grandiose, would you not? See, all the traits flow into one another. It's like that with all pd's.

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  106. Nah, Anon 4:29, that's just silly. Societies change over time, they are human constructs and nobody has a "natural" place in them. But psychopathic gene pool thrives because it is effective. Many psychopaths copulate with multiple women, assuring their genes continue living on, making little psychopaths who do the same thing. That's nature and it has nothing to do with societies.

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  107. Only idiotic psychopaths would have a bunch of kids.


    wv: broked

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  108. @Anon 4:36

    I don't agree with you at all on this one. For example in my family there is a lot of antisocial traits that are present in one form or another in most of us, some more severe than others. I think there are two or three who might qualify as one (it is a large family tree). I know I have my share of those, yet I'm not nowhere close to being a psychopath or a sociopath by any standards of modern psychology.

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  109. What does copulate mean?

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  110. That was very genius of me. I had a break through. Even Haven will explain to you, how the traits of her borderline pd compliment each other. It's the same with a sociopath.

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  111. You seem to be a big believer in labels, anon.

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  112. I don't get why the PCL;R is thought of as being good or clever. As interviewer, you're basically asked "is this man/woman a psychopath: yes/no/a bit" twenty times. That's not clever. Hare is considered to be at the top of his field because of this?

    That's like... an interior designer being considered to be at the top of his field because he created a 'checklist' that determines what someone's favourite colour is by--let me think for a spell here...--counting the various colours in the target's living room and seeing which one's most prevalent. Ignoring the question wether this is effective and accurate, how could anyone think this is--urgh... I've had too much wine--something positive?

    This is turning into a rant, I've already 'mentally written' two additional paragraphs...

    If Hare is considered to be the gold standard, the field of psychopathology as a whole just isn't trying. Wether it's because psychopathy (and by extension, psychopathology) isn't taken seriously by anyone because of the fear mongering mostly right-wing idiots (an entire group of people best described by the words "Fox News") using the term so much it's lost all meaning, or because the people who usually finance scientific research all being psychopaths or because every psychology student being taught that Hare received his checklist from the Great Ocelot in the Sky and therefore it is the undeniable and unquestionable truth and they (the student) could never hope to dream to wish to think about ever being even remotely comparable to his superhuman genius; unless that comparison includes the words "archaic bacteria" and "future hypothetical God-child able to make entropy decrease at will".

    I may have gone a bit overboard there...

    I think all three of the above reasons (the word psychopath being hollow and meaningless because of overusage, money for research being unavailable because of various reasons and Hare being the Einstein of psychopathology) are part of the problem, but the main reason (in my opinion) is that psychologist are aware of the PCL;R's shortcoming, it's just not necessary to address the issues (yes; I'm aware of the fact that this renders my opening statement invalid, but I only came up with this reason while typing this). The Checklist was never meant to be some kind of all-powerful psychopath detector, just a way to introduce some much needed standardization. It's still subjective (there's no "you must have at least killed five people to qualify for low-empathy" manual provided with the List), it still (partly) uses the interviewer's opinions to handing out points, it's just much less subjective than what was used in the days of "moral retardation" (i.e: "Here's what this bloke did, do you think he qualifies or wha?").

    Having typed all this, I'm not so sure about my (what you could only call) observations (if you were blind on one eye and set the other on fire) anymore. I might be completely off at every conclusion I make, so I was wondering wether I should post this or not. But, having written all this, if that's the case, I'll be fucked if I'm the only one whose time is wasted by this...

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  113. Nature tends towards balance in most things. Sometimes I don't wonder if the PDs themselves aren't meant to compliment each other on some level. I know I'm not the first to have this thought.

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  114. Why is there no criticism for the borderline, or npd labels? Is it cause YALL wannabes?

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  115. @von .... you're kidding right?

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  116. Why don't you just protest? Vaknin is picketing outside Hares house. The guy told me he's disgusted with sociopaths getting such a bad rep.

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  117. It's just I have no clue why a sociopath would care about the PCL-R being off. Who gives a fucking shit?

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  118. Sociopaths, I think, are either proud of the bad rep or just don't care. And Sammy is just jealous of them.

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  119. I'm on the who gives a fuck bandwagon. I'm also on the i'm not smart enough to comprise an intellectual argument bandwagon too.

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  120. Hi vm. What's with the picture? Don't tell me you are an animal lova?

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  121. Cats are ok with me. They give me pleasure.

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  122. Nah Nothing Man. I like Sam. I can find myself relating to almost all of his videos. It's like wow, these videos are explaining my whole life.

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  123. you unibrowed fuck. i'll rape your cat.

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  124. I read Sam's tome. It read like a novel it was so interesting.

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  125. the cat's face just says abuse me

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  126. I DESPISE ANIMAL LOVERS

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  127. Do you think that the PD's are on one continuum like Narc to Mal Narc to Sociopath?


    The other continuum would be Co--dep to BPD?

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  128. He's got videos too?

    But there, Von, you are making a label religious statement too. "Why would a sociopath care?" You are making it either because A) you think you are one and you don't care or B) you have read about them and are convinced they wouldn't care. Maybe even C) you have worked with them in the prison/hospital you are working in and based on your experiences you don't think they would care.

    First off, just to make it clear from the start and avoid the debate, I don't think I am a sociopath. But how can you know for sure what a sociopath would or would not care for?

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  129. I have seen Sam on U Tube but I would rather read than watch him. I don't like his affect, too much lol

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  130. Have you seen I, psychopath? The whole documentary is basically Sam bullying his wife and the director into submission. Major lols.

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  131. "you unibrowed fuck. i'll rape your cat."

    LOOOOOOOOL

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  132. It has been a fun conversation, but now I need to go. SW never fails - some days it's lulz and drama, some days intellectual conversation, some days it's both but it's never boring. Tips hat for M.E, even if he really is every single person writing in this blog - including me.

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  133. The PCL-R is a tool for diagnosing which criminals are psyhopathic, it isn't intended to diagnose psychopaths in other settings. that is why a diagnosis requires a high score on both factors, one of which is associated with Antisocial Personality Disorder.

    The PCL-R doesn't measure the autism-like traits of psychopaths that really do "quantitatively and qualitatively" separate psychopaths from (most) non-psychopaths. Detecting the social brain deficits in functioning would be the most obvious place to start a diagnosis.

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  134. "autism-like traits of psychopaths"

    ?

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  135. Intellectual talk is fine for intellectuals. Anything else going on?

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  136. psychopathy has no comparison to autism.

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  137. Harv--5 points on the Empathy ScaleDecember 23, 2011 at 5:54 PM

    I poked a sausage.

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  138. I, officially, want to say that I have nothing to do with that moron Frank. Gary is a professional

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  139. "Do you think that the PD's are on one continuum like Narc to Mal Narc to Sociopath?


    The other continuum would be Co--dep to BPD?"


    First I think you don't understand the definition of 'continuum'.

    My therapist believes that personality disorders are on one continuous spectrum of dissociation. It's a broader definition of the word dissociation, but it's a theory.

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  140. @HAVEN

    HAVE YOU EVER MET A GENUINE SPATHY?

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  141. I think a buddy of mine might be. More to the point, my buddy thinks he probably is.

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  142. "One must never take views from those of a poor man, but of the powerful" - Wise Socio

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  143. "I think a buddy of mine might be. More to the point, my buddy thinks he probably is."

    WHY?

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  144. @Haven That was what I meant, in part. Is the continuum based on the degree of dissociation?

    That makes sense. What do you think?

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  145. @Haven I see what you mean. I was thinking that there were two separate continuum. I understand the use of the word *eyes raised*

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  146. y dos satan make socia purty?

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  147. @Monica... The degree and type of dissociation I suppose, because there's more than one kind. I haven't researched into this too much though.


    @Anon ... Why does he think he's a sociopath? Complete lack of empathy, callous disregard for anyone that he doesn't find personal benefit from, grandiose self perception, complete disregard for social norms, doesn't feel guilt, reckless disregard for his own safety....

    But he's not the type to get in trouble with the law or do things to get himself arrested, he doesn't lie (as far as I can tell) in so much as he has my opinion that the truth is often more fun and more damaging, and he's quite responsible as far as his education and occupation are concerned.

    idk, I don't think he fits the full requirements for ASPD but who's to say you can't be a productive part of society and also socio ::shrug;:

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  148. YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A DISREGARD FOR SOCIAL NORMS AND STILL REMAIN A DECENT CITIZEN? NOT HAPPENING.

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  149. "in so much as he has my opinion that the truth is often more fun and more damaging"

    See he did lie to you. This means that he would feel bad if he were to tell an outright lie.

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  150. Does he lie to inflate his ego, when he is undermined, or attacked? because this is a red flag.

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  151. "HOW CAN YOU HAVE A DISREGARD FOR SOCIAL NORMS AND STILL REMAIN A DECENT CITIZEN?"

    This is like asking how an athiest can have morals if they don't believe in god. All you need is a cognitive awareness of consequences that would be detrimental to your preferred lifestyle and choose to preserve something you find of higher value.

    I disregard social norms all the time. It doesn't take a genius to realize what would land me in jail though, and avoid doing those things. I value a certain kind of lifestyle, and being productive allows me to maintain that lifestyle.


    "This means that he would feel bad if he were to tell an outright lie."

    No it doesn't. It just means lying is less effective. For ex, If you want to make someone feel bad about themselves and you do so by lying, the effects can be mitigated and leave no impact if the person were to find out the truth. however if you utilize true information to make a damaging statement, there's no refuting the point and the effect of the statement will have more impact.

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  152. is psychopath more animal and sociopath more human?

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  153. "Does he lie to inflate his ego, when he is undermined, or attacked? because this is a red flag."

    He doesn't need to have his ego inflated. And I don't think you can damage it. Nothing anyone can say will change his opinion of himself.

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  154. Disregarding social norms lands you in jail? Only if you are dim and had no clue how to execute the behaviors. I live off of peoples hard work. I'm 26 and have never worked one day in my life. I have a nice car, a home and all the food i can eat. Everything is paid for by others.

    I have battered and used people all of my life and not once have i paid the price with jail time. Don't equate disregarding social norms with prison. There are easy ways around it.

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  155. Can someone talk about frankfurt?

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  156. The police in my neighborhood aren't even aware of my existence and I commit criminal acts every day, in privacy.

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  157. It's known that sociopaths have an almost supernatural ability to escape accountability.

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  158. Frank was born with frankfurt who was a good size. The doctors said, "You have quite a frankfurt Mrs Franklin"

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  159. ::sigh:: it's too quiet here tonight

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  160. Haven got debunked.

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  161. @Haven Do you like your franks with two beans or sans?

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  162. @Frank Gary has pride in hisself.

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  163. Frank you must be as bored as I am.

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  164. @Haven Frank has been trying to instill some conversation for a few hours. Merry Christmas Haven. Want a bite of frank in your stocking?

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  165. Jesus, Frank, get some class like Gary.

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  166. Harv--- 5 on the Empathy ScaleDecember 23, 2011 at 7:42 PM

    Frank, don't talk about your frankfurt burping and shit. Harv would never do that when pussy was around.

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  167. @Frank you are a moron. TNP would never act that way.

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  168. Frank went to bed but I am still up.

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  169. Frank, you take the whole joint down with your immature shit. TNP, hisself, does not want to be part of it.

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  170. "How does it feel to be wrong? I wouldn't know"

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  171. Frank needs to have his blood tested for lead.

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  172. @Tik Frank is sorry if he was rude to woman. Frankfurt jokes drove everyone away. TNP and Gary did not like it, either. Frank feels ashamed of hisself.

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  173. Relax Frank. Gary, hisself, screws up, even.

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  174. Hm. I'm tired, and bored. I think I have an idea for possible multi-dimensional diagnostic tool. Not for achieving a label, so much as identifying major versus minor tendencies in the sociopathic spectrum.

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  175. You can test it out on Frank if it involves neddles or drugs.

    There may be an improvement.~

    Or electricity for his frankfort.

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  176. I'm done with the core document. I'll probably post it up later.

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  177. corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur

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  178. On second thought, I'll post that in a few days.

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  179. Seamen on my poopdeck TEEHEE. Seamen on my poopdeck TEEHEE.
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