Wednesday, May 23, 2012

Learning to be sociopathic (part 2)

My reply:

I do think that it is possible to learn to be more sociopathic. I frequently have people from the former Eastern Bloc who write to me and tell me that it seems like everyone in their country is sociopathic. I have visited other countries -- Vietnam, Egypt, Israel, the Netherlands, etc. -- that seem more naturally sociopathic than others. I think people who are raised in abusive situations become almost bilingual in the language of ASPD (if not necessarily sociopathy). And of course everyone can be trained to kill, if pushed to it.

I was actually thinking of how we train our mind to think in particular ways.  For example, I went to a graduate school with a particular philosophical bent.  Today I met someone else who went to the same school and caught up on a recent project that has been keeping me very busy.  I was surprised how easy it was to explain it to him.  I would start a sentence and he would finish it for me.  When I started telling him about a follow up project, I only had to begin giving him the premise and he immediately understood everything.  I was so charmed by the exchange because it reminded me of how pervasive that mentality is that we share.

In contrast, recently I have been trying to learn a new method of analysis and so I talk with people who come from a completely different discipline from mine.  It's so interesting hearing the way they see problems -- the things that interest them and their biases and blindspots are so different from my own.  Sometimes I see them making small errors, but it's actually hard to explain to them because they are, after all, blindspots and some people get so attached to a particular viewpoint.

I always tell people sociopathy is really only a competitive advantage just because its incidence is low.  It's like being left handed in certain sports like boxing.  There is nothing inherently better about left handedness over right handedness.  It's just that people are used to defending against the right handed, not the left.

I have also heard from people who have been raised by sociopathic parents who say that they also grow up bilingual in the language of sociopathy.  I think that is ultimately where most people will end up in their lives, at least the smart ones.  It's good to see things from different perspectives.  

93 comments:

  1. My neighborly sociopath's I have another question for you. What do you do when someone give you the wrong answers? Do you cut them off and move to someone who's ready for you or do you try to break them to build them back up to your liking? I know theres a word for that second one. Some kind of complex or a delusion. What is it?

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    1. Depends on how usable that person is to me. If breaking one is not worth the effort, then I just move on.

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    2. I don't mind if someone is giving me the wrong answers, like they would know the right ones...

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    3. Hmmm. I don't think they are worth the effort. Or maybe my skills need sharpening and my toolbox needs widening. They COULD be useful for that. A sort of psychological guinea pig. I haven't had enough of those in my life. What do you think? Is that worth anything?

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    4. Also this person has a high self esteem some I'm more or less fooling myself if I tell myself I CAN break them.

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    5. Most of them aren't worth the effort, but I like to create some loyal people, so I could use them easier.
      Despicable Mee

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    6. Even if you are a sociopath, people won't start to dance as you want them to, unless you'll practice to manipulate them. Some are easy, some are hard.

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    7. That is one nice syndrome, lol

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    8. I think at the moment, as I'm still quite young and new to socializing my problem with people stems from the fact that I'm not good at it. I'm like the liar who looks you in the eyes to watch your reaction and see if you believe them. It's not because I'm not good at manipulating. It's that I'm still in the childish faze of lying where I find the watching more interesting that the results themselves. Why don't they notice they're puppets in my presence? What would they do if they did?

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    9. @Medusa: No, I mean the delusion or compulsion to want to remake other people in your image. Like to rebuild them to your standards.

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    10. While some people try to adapt to their surroundings, other try to adapt their surrounings to themselves, nothing strange here :)

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    11. What happens when the masses, or a single person, finds out that every word out of your mouth is to elicit a certain response? Do they resent you. Do they hate you. Would that stop the play cold in its tracks? Can it ever be recovered through more manipulation? Would it be the same if it were? If anyone can answer these questions I will give you drugs.

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    12. Single person might be disappointed, might reject you. But you could change it the way you want. If a crowd would find it out when you are manipulating them all, they might rape you. It's hard to change crowds opinion, but you could do it, by changing their view one person at a time (or more when one). Or you could just eliminate crowd leader(s), to kill their doubts.
      It won't be same, because they will still suspect you, so you will have to work harder :( , or it can turn out better when before :)

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    13. I'd say that I very seldom don't know what people are going to say before they say it. People are easy to read, people don't try to hide it. It's easy to know exactly what people are thinking. So if they don't say what I know they will, I'm going to work on them until they will. The fact that they confused me makes them interesting enough for me to not be TOTALLY bored for a bit at least.

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    14. So you are trying to make people act more predictable.

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    15. @Medusa Sometimes. Again, it depends. For example, at uni in speech class. If someone messes up their talk there's a few things most people do; laugh or get angry. People are mostly the same. You, or at least I, can tell when I see someone what they'd do. When someone walks up to talk and they mess up and I have them pegged in my mind as someone who'd totally ignore the error and just keep going on and they freak out and storm off the stage, I've obviously made a big error. And I've got some re-evaluating to do. Maybe I've just been lazy or didn't notice something. Unlikely. The main goal of most sociopaths is to find out as much about the 'normal' people's personalities. To use it against them maybe, to find the weakness; or maybe just to use it as part of their own 'fake' personality. It's always fun to switch things up and become a new person.
      But the same thing goes for manipulation. If I've got someone pegged to respond in a certain way and they respond differently, I've made an error. Or maybe they just have an emotion I don't understand. Or maybe they're a bit less boring. Maybe their not as easy to crack as I thought or actually realize they're being manipulated. Maybe they're, at least in some capacity, up to play back. When I'm in the mood, those are the best kinds of people. A challenge is good every once in a while, as is a change. Helps to fine tune the skills. And it's not as boring.

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  2. Replies
    1. You must be very proud of yourself now.

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  3. Haven't heard from my friend, yet Mee. She is super busy!

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    Replies
    1. Monica you're such a busybody

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  4. OMG, I am convinced (as well as friends and associates) that I have just ended a 3 year relationship with a Sociopath! So much has been revealed by his ex-wife, and everything is making sense now. His family obtained a diagnosis on him when he was a teenager amost 30 years ago, but they brushed it under the rug, refuse to air the diagnosis, yet sent him to a behavorial school in Idaho (sort of like the movie boot Camp) post diagnosis. But, they gave the book, "The Sociopath Next Door," to his ex-wife as a gift when they were married. She did not understand why they would give such a gift and essentialy discounted it and tossed it. But now it makes sense, they must have given it to her as a warning! I cannot believe what I have experienced with this man, and the hurt that I am experiencing coming out of it, when I am almost 50 years old! I have never known anyone so wholly emotionally cruel, been used so, had my love and good graces so taken advantage and abused! Yet, he is on to his next victim with his family's encouragement and support (as if they like to pawn him off onto women so they don't have to reveal their ugly truth so their image and social stature in the southern communities will not be tarnished by owning a mentally ill son). Should I warn her the new woman? What is my moral obligation in this without a formal diagnosis?

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    1. That's one interesting story, but don't ask about moral here, dear.
      Actually, you should warn her, if you care about her and if you think that this act wouldn't anger your ex. Maybe you already know that you shouldn't make a socio/psycho angry :)
      I would say, just let him go, forget everything and don't stand in his way, you won't gain anything by doing this.
      - Mee

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    2. How are you friends with the ex-wife? Form an 'all his exes club' and make that a book club with case studies from the guy, compare notes, and laugh it off, invite the current girlfriend and teach her how to make him happy without fuss.

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    3. Dear Anon (12:08),

      One thing about sociopaths is that they have seen a lot of people 'tagging' them. They just want to know who they are left with who does not tag them as dangerous. The moment a person tags, they leave and they leave cold because they don't want to get hurt. It's an innate human desire to protect one's self, even at the cost of others.

      Beneath all this, there is a child who is violently looking at the world. It's the perception, waiting to get hurt and then leaving cold. It happened in the past with others and the trigger inside me is waiting for the next one. It happens subconsciously. Others do hurt them and then they are tagged as dangerous. That's kinda unfair!

      Do you see the logic? It's the perception and it can knock you off any day if you scared and fail to understand. But if you want to help, make sure you have guts to discuss like this on the face of your ex. Reach the child within. If you cannot handle or do not want to handle, just walk off. Don't tag him for others. You are spoiling his World. He will know it someday. Secrets are hard to keep. He will know it is you. The girl whom you wanted to help, will do it for you.

      I can talk about all this because I am a sociopath, I do have feelings but those of getting hurt and leaving cold. And to you I might sound just so scary and probably reminding you of your ex. You don't have to sympathize with me, but just don't spoil my World! I see it in a different way. I am a sociopath.

      - Sociopathic and nice guy, want to stop the slide!

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  5. Hello Mee Monica says that you want to talk to me

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    1. Hello Lilitu, well it was her idea :) . I would like to know if I have an ASPD, that would be all, I think. Also, could you tell me something about yourself, so I would be able to know what can I expect from you?

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    2. What sort of thing do you want to know?

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    3. Well, nothing too personal, just what is your specialty, stuff like that.

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  6. Assuming by specialty you mean job. I'm in the military. Why do you think that you have a ASPD?

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    1. Military, then how you are able to help?
      Well I think that I have ASPD, because I fit for it and all the symptoms fits for me.

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    2. Well I helped a Monica. So basicly you have already decided that you have ASPD, you just want someone to confirm it for you?

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    3. Yes, or to prove that I am wrong.
      How Monica decided to ask your help, why?

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  7. We met on SW, She gave me her email adress and we talked on msn she asked for my help. She wanted the truth, even if it hurt or upset her. You'll have to ask her why.

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    1. Nope although she gave it to her as well.

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    2. I will. And why you were here?
      I don't understand how a label can hurt you. You will be more aware of your disorder, but still you'll be the same person, right?

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    3. Monica wasn't here when ManiaAzer was.

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    4. ManiAzer stopped coming here long before Monica showed up.

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  8. I was here because I was trying to understand myself. The label will effect how other people see you, which can in turn hurt you.

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    1. How? People, who are close to you would probably think that since you were a sociopath before they discovered the label, you are still the same person and their feelings for you wouldn't change because of it (unless you will start to show off or sth like that). And random people wouldn't know about it. It doesn't mean that when you are labeled, you don't need to play it safe anymore.
      And what did you find out about yourself?
      And what can you tell about me?

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    2. If I was close to you and then I discovered you were a sociopath, it would definitely affect my feelings for you. To suddenly realise that, having assumed you had some kind of feelings for me
      (as lovers or only friends), everything had all been an act and you wouldn't care if something bad happened to me, you would manipulate me if you saw fit and could represent an emotional or physical danger to me would completely freak me out. So at best I'd keep you at arm's length and at worst I'd get you right out of my life

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  9. Why would you want the people close to you to know that you are a sociopath? Are you thinking about getting officially labeled?
    I found out that I was right about myself.
    Not alot, I dont know you well enough and I dont feel like looking back over your old posts at the moment.

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    1. The way I see it only two things can come from being known as a sociopath: 1. The weak and the stupid will excuse your blatant sociopathic behavior because "that's how you are." 2. The smart and sensible masses, the ones who pay attention, will close themselves off to you, knowing that to associate with a sociopath is like drinking poison.

      There is no actual benefit to it, besides testing the human waters to know in the future, how complete your mask will have to be. I think the only reason Mee would want others to know is so when he gets rid of them he will know how to hide himself using the least amount of energy necessary.

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    2. I don't want, but I don't mind. I was just explaining why I don't think that this information would effect other people point of view. I am not planning to be officialy labeled, because I won't get anything because of it, so there's no point to do it, right?
      Well you wouldn't find anything interesting in my old posts anyway.
      So you have ASPD? And how did you felt while searching for answers?

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    3. The only way to truly know if you have ASPD is to go get diagnosed.

      Goldwater Rule

      Otherwise you are just talking to Dr. Drew.

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    4. True, however getting diagnosed comes with its own set of problems.

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    5. I agree with that as well. Yet another argument for not worrying about labels. It just limits you all around... both your world and your mind.

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    6. It's more useful to label other people rather than oneself.

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  10. I felt interested... I had alot of fun on this blog for awhile as an anon. before life got in the way. how do you feel mee?

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    Replies
    1. Just like you, but I created an account, because It's easier to talk this way. Still it's anonymous. Well I write as an anon too, sometimes.
      What happened?

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    2. I just got busy, and truthfully, bored of this place. Although I still actively talk to a couple people from here.

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    3. Ok, sadly, I have to go now, I still have to sleep. It was a pleasure chating with you! Maybe you could come back here later?

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  11. I would never trust the mental heath profession with that label of myself. To me, you can figure it out on your own. I know that is heresy to some people but it is not that hard to figure out your disorder with the internet.

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    1. Most people are not a good judge of their own character. You can't judge a paradigm from within that very paradigm, because you are already biased by that paradigm and it will inevitably inform your judgement.

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    2. No one can know what your thought processes are like, what your feelings feel like , what your moral standards are better than yourself . An exterior analysis will always be biased by the observer's projections and interpretations based on their own neurology , thought processes, standards, etc. A mind can only be observed from the inside , in my opinion . Obviously that's a very autistic thing to say but I'm fairly sure sociopaths can also be analytical enough to never need external input as to what they are. I doubt NTs can,though, but they're a whole other species.

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    3. Yes, of course it's an exterior analysis. That's the whole point of labels in the world of psychology. It only makes sense that the people who created the labels are the same people who should be using the labels.

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    4. That's true. But they're still the labels people who want to label themselves need to use, unless they create a whole new language ...

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    5. What language is 'thought' and 'behaviour' in? What language does the 'personality' of a person speak in?

      Language was invented and is used to communicate with other people, not oneself.

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    6. The language used to define PDs is the language of psychiatry , the one you find in the DSM-5. Criterias have to be met,but it's very open to interpretation. You can meet a criterion in your psychiatrist's eye, but he will only have the truth if you yourself are completely in the dark about the DSM. Which can be found online. Anyone interested in a diagnosis of any kind will study the DSM to see which PD or syndrome seems the most consistent and then influence their psychiatrist to get the "correct " diagnosis , that's why I think seeing a professional is useless.

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    7. If the professional is competent, they will see through this and diagnose accordingly, taking this ruse into consideration whilst doing so.

      It's a very very common phenomenon for psychology students (and medical students) to diagnose themselves with whatever it is they happen to be studying. Their professors are aware of this and are prepared, and so are the competent doctors and psychologists.

      They were all students as well at one time, after all.

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    8. I think you are mistaking a psychiatry degree with a proof of intelligence . You realize how rare "competent " doctors are? One even told me "your son isn't autistic , I saw him talk to a little boy in the waiting room" lol...

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    9. Yes yes yes yes ad infinitum

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  12. Dr Franklin Fomentile PhdMay 24, 2012 at 2:07 PM

    You do need a highly qualified mental health professional. Check his education and clinical training.

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    Replies
    1. Hey doc, feel free to diagnose me :)

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    2. She can't. She only knows how to attempt at diagnosing me. That was a total fail, though. Go see a real doctor.

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    3. Well her second failure would be entertaining. And maybe I should give it a try (why not?)?
      I don't want to visit a doctor, lol

      Delete
    4. Dr Franklin Fomentile PhdMay 25, 2012 at 4:58 AM

      Thank you Mee. I will respond to your request, as that is the only time I offer my thoughts beyond general comments on the blog. This is the internet and I don't know you as a long term patient. Please, keep my analysis in that context, Mee. I have not seen as much of you as I have Raven, so my ideas need to be taken with that caveat, too. If you agree to take what I said with these guidelines, I will offer a thought or two.

      Mee, I think you can have a life which is full of everything you want and desire. I think you can make your life be what you want. I don't say this to everyone because I don't believe this to be the case, for everyone. I will explain why. Also, I don't say this to everyone, as I don't talk in a superficial or light handed fashion. People are important to me. People's feelings are important but TRUTH is more important.
      Truth is health. Always remember that and you will stay on the healthiest road, emotionally.

      I will continue.

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    5. Dr Franklin Fomentile PhdMay 25, 2012 at 5:11 AM

      Mee, your asking for help in the way you have shows me several things about your character and basic personality. You have a modicum of humility. That is rare. You may not think so, as I take it you are young. However, it is very rare. Humility will be one of the traits that will keep you in good stead. Humility is one of the cornerstones of a healthy person. Every emotionally healthy person is humble. Every emotionally sick person lacks humility, in my experience.

      I watched you ask for help and be scorned by Medusa. That was LACK of humility on her part. Raven has lack of humility, as well. People with this kind of arrogance scorn people who need help. We all need help, Mee. It is the healthier person who asks for it. It is the more emotionally handicapped person who must appear to need no or little help from others. In fact, a mark of a emotional illness is this false arrogance, this mask of not needing anyone. It is not true humility. True humility is seeing oneself as one is, not too big, not too small, right sized.

      I noticed this one factor about you, as well as some other healthy markers. This one factor plays a part in why I think you can design your life in a positive way. I will continue.

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    6. Dr Franklin Fomentile PhdMay 25, 2012 at 5:19 AM

      I will be around, Mee. This does not have to be the last time we talk. You can leave questions for me, and I will check back, from time to time.

      For now, I will continue. You must be very,very careful to whom you trust your mind and your mental and emotional health. This is the most important thing of anything I say. Mental health professionals can make you worse. If you do have sociopath leanings, the wrong therapist can scar you for life, by a diagnosis which can stick with you like glue. Your job potential as well as other life potentials may be diminished. I am not telling you what to do, as I cannot advice on such a grave matter as your seeking professional help, from the vantage point of a blog. That would be folly. Just be careful to whom you entrust your precious mental health.

      As far as my observations of you, I will continue.

      Delete
    7. Dr Franklin Fomentile PhdMay 25, 2012 at 5:26 AM

      I will give my last entry, now, for purposes of time but I can be called on by you, Mee.

      Another factor which bodes well for you is that you seem to be able to relate to others in a way that shows respect for those around you. You may think this is common. However, it is not especially in emotionally disordered people. Take a look around SW and see the people who use people for their own "fun".

      You may say that this is just a blog and it doesn't matter. It DOES. It shows the character of that person. Character matters in mental and emotional health, Mee. Character can take you a long way to emotional health if you have had a disadvantaged background. Character can shape your life for the better. Hang on to that character, Mee. Build it up to the highest degree possible. Read biographies of people who rose above like Frederick Douglass. He is one of my personal favorites. Your character will stand by you if and when your world falls down around you. I hope you are understanding what I mean. I suspect you are.

      I will be back when I can, Mee. I hope my words offered something of value to you.

      Delete
    8. Mee, find yourself someone to talk to who doesn't use your query to satisfy another agenda.
      Medusa will tell you the truth about what she sees you doing here. She has more insight, and intelligence, and she won't idealize or demonize you.

      Detached people are a wonderful source for truth. They aren't looking at you through their emotional baggage.

      Keep in mind that the way you comment on a blog is not enough to read a persons whole character, or life.

      Delete
    9. Great job, Doc. You sound like a straight up guy.

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    10. Shut the fuck up, Raven.

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    11. Thanks for your time, doc :) , I'll think about what you wrote and maybe write something about it later (probably not today).
      Raven, so you are suggesting me to ask some SW regular to chat with me? Well I think this would fail, unless the other party would want to chat/help too :)
      Everyone, feel free to comment or ask something.

      Delete
    12. Or maybe YOU want to chat, Raven, so you try to make me ask for it, lol

      Delete
    13. If I wanted to chat with you, I'd just do it.

      Delete
  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  14. is the driver in the movie Drive a sociopath?

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  15. Hang on for dear life
    If you lose, you dissolve
    If you lose, you go down the drain as surely as soap suds in the bathtub
    If you hang on, you have it all
    If you let go, you are spinning in a nether world.
    Who am I? The Self.

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  16. question - are you a sociopath if you are right that most people are not fundamentally good? Maybe you are the normal one, if the people surround you are petty, nasty, envious, sniveling, little idiots..who think they have the upper hand but pretend to be "good" lol?

    If you are fundamentally happy, but hate 99% of the population, maybe it's the population that is socio but disguising as empath and you're the real empath who sees people for what they are.

    Maybe socios are just more honest, they see reality versus the rose tinted glasses illusion about everyone including themselves..most people like to think they are "good" but to admit that you are not perfect that you are looking out for yourself more than others isn't that more honest than deluding yourself as an empath does?

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    Replies
    1. There are many holes in that argument. Especially in the last paragraph.

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    2. haha yeah I agree 10:27 "maybe socios are just more honest" there's a big hole right there.

      Delete
  17. Tell me why
    I don’t like Mondays
    Tell me why
    I don’t like Mondays
    Tell me why
    I don’t like Mondays
    I wanna shoo-oo-woo-woo-woo-oot the whole day down

    HAHAHA ITS TIME GUYS!!!

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  18. Someone once told me that they found it easy to read others, but when it came to me, he had absolutely nothing. I told him I like to keep it that way, and then I thought, was it better to be an unreadable book, or one where you only let them read the parts you want?

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  19. Awww, the memorees :)

    ReplyDelete

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