Monday, May 28, 2012

Choosing self-awareness

This blog is an interesting resource directed specifically at those with narcissistic personality disorder.  I have always sort of assumed that narcissists are by their nature unaware of their self deception.  However, the author appears to be a self-aware narcissist.  Not only that, he posts advice to other narcissists about how to choose self-awareness themselves.  I think it's actually good advice for everyone, and is especially helpful in understanding how to deal with irrational or self-deceived people:

One big problem narcissists have is that they perceive people (including themselves) negatively. This is part of being out of touch with reality. Suppose you act like a jerk. In order to feel good about yourself, you convince yourself others have it coming to them, by distorting reality. Or you’ll goad others so that they’ll retaliate, allowing you to convince yourself that others are the bad guys.

The solution is to act on your good impulses so you have no need to self-justify:


To the extent you have impulses to be helpful or nice to others or yourself, you should try to carry out the impulses. E.g. if you see someone that needs help and you think, “I should help,” you really should. The reason: if you don’t, you’ll find a way to blame the other person so that you can feel you did the right thing by not helping. You’ll see that person negatively. As before, you may even goad them into attacking you, so that you can feel better about yourself.

The solution is simple: when around other people, pay attention. If you have an impulse to help them, do it. Do this again and again. If you forget and catch yourself not paying attention, just start over.


He also recommends zen meditation and some other interesting advice about how to recognize and process feelings of shame.  And more specifically about cultivating self-awareness:

Try to develop a friendly curiosity about yourself. Somehow you got to the present without paying much attention. Now is a good time to start paying attention. Try to notice your thoughts. Try to feel whatever you feel. Watch yourself making judgments. See how you spend your time. The key here is the attitude. You aren’t studying yourself coldly. You are, in a friendly way, trying to observe what you do. The reason is that “friendly” is less-threatening than “cold”. You are more likely to see all aspects of yourself if you observe yourself with friendly curiosity.
***
Pay attention to things as you act. That way after the fact, you’ll be able to look back and remember what happened. The goal is to get away from reacting and instead become someone that acts deliberately.
***
The neat thing here is that you get to catch yourself deluding yourself. You are routinely lying to yourself. You’ve got the chance to catch yourself and watch it happen.
***
The alternative to self-awareness is being asleep and living a life of self-delusion and misery.

This post about self-deception is also very interesting, in which he cites this article (see also this book):

Humans are invested in seeing themselves as ethical creatures. We want to believe in the rightness of our own conduct, to see our lives as a series of mostly well-intentioned decisions. And it appears that we'll go to great lengths to feel that way, even if it means warping our own sense of morality to suit our needs.

This is why I don't want people to feel indebted to me.  I have narcissists and other self-deceived people in my family, circle of acquaintances, and group of business associates.  Those type of people cannot stand to feel indebted to someone else -- it goes against their own sense of self worth.  So what they will do is try to make up a story in which they are not really indebted to me, perhaps because what I gave them was not really worth much, or perhaps by imputing some sort of ulterior motive to me.  Or maybe they might imagine a story in which I am really just paying them back for something that I have long been ungrateful for.  Whatever the means, the purpose is always the same: to make them feel like they are in the right, even if it means convincing themselves that I am in the wrong.  It is not at all worth it to me, so I am very careful to preemptively downplay anything I might happen to do for them.

I have to say that I hate self-deceived people.  Sometimes they email me or I see them commenting on posts.  I wonder if they realize how obvious they are.  Maybe they can, in the way that we sometimes suspect we have bad breath but can never really be sure.

242 comments:

  1. at the age of 14 i started karate
    one of the things they did there is meditate
    i used to try to understand ppl by rewinding my day and seeing stuff from there prospective
    (still no empathy and i'm even more manipulative with that information)

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  2. I like yoga and meditation..still hate 99.9% of all people ;) but I do feel good from doing it.

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  3. As much as I appreciate your blog here and some of your points, your writing is sort of bland and generic, lacking in either character or personality. As a narcissist, I don't get it. Still, thank you.

    Hugs, kisses.:)

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  4. Hey, so narcissism is a disorder, or anyone can be a narc? How nacissism differ from misanthropy (they look pretty similar to me)? =\

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  5. M.E.It doesn't matter how much you try to downplay anything with a Mal Narc.They are always right!Which collides with the S need for power.The narc is right,the S is not.No gratitude for the S's mental assertion in all this.

    Imagine the story if 'the broad spectrum' of feelings were factored into all this.

    That's why the smell of rot eminates.It's your general gaslighting,projection and distortion that Narcs are renound for.

    It's bad luck that you have so many Narcs in your circle.

    What do you need from them??

    Maybe,on some level,you do want people to feel indebted to you,otherwise you wouln't 'hate' those that are clearly disordered.otherwise you would only see them as pathetic to their core.How can you hate that??You can only try to avoid it.

    Maybe they are drawn to you for your clear concise mental capability...and maybe you are drawn to them for their bad behaviour....just thinking out loud....

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  6. narc just another asshol

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  7. Fantastic post! It is funny to say that I used to do just this. Today, before I read it, I realized I needed to look at myself in just the way he says, without judgement, as an impartial observe, kind of like observing an alien. The shame is very bad when you had a Mal narc parent. You live in it, as a dense fog, until you start to be able to detach from it. I have just started to be able to do that. I can pull back, to a very small degree and see the shame as separate from me.

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    1. Thanks Monica.

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    2. I think the narcissist shame and the borderline's shame is not exactly the same. But shame is shame!

      Fake bad feelings are just that, too. They are all distortions and bad habits. I can hold onto shame because it's a habit or I can step out of myself and stop. It really IS like a shell to step away from. Pretty sure I've been doing that my entire life with the narcissistic parent's voices trying to make me a narcissist.

      The borderline shame is a different but similar thing.

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    3. Yes, if you can step away, you can heal. However, it is very, very hard to find that stepping away point.

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    4. You know, what is hard is when you are in the moment with people and you are naked and catch yourself hating yourself out of the blue. For no reason. You take yourself like a hologram and step next to yourself and it feels terrible and beautiful all at once. I could die of shame. I could die looking at the ugly mask. It is the most ugly, bitter thing I have to forgive. I make myself stand there and then I will look to see if I died. I did not.


      When I cry it is like Holly Hunter in Broadcast News. Then it is back to business. Remember they ask her it must be wonderful to feel you're the smartest in the room and she says no it's terrible?

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    5. you are one sad sack^

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    6. I am not sad. I am just truthful. People gravitate towards me. Why on earth would they gravitate towards sad?

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    7. aww please dont cut your wrists, sad sack

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    8. It's too late, there is blood on my computer. I am suing you for the cost of said computer. It is all your fault I cutted myself.

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    9. cutted? lol

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    10. Now you are making fun of my English?

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    11. not! i just dont want you to cutted yourself

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  8. To be a narcissist you must have a strong need of attention. To be a sociopath, you need to receive the name from society, a shrink acts there as representative to society. In both cases, society, the community of people, is the primary origin of events in your life.

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  9. I 100% disagree Jose. It is an internal prison that one carries as a snail shell on one's back.

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  10. M.E. two questions:

    a) Narcissism would be an acquired disorder, for example as a result from bad parenting or a generally crappy childhood, vs Psychopathy/Sociopaty which would be a congenital disorder? Any other view on this?

    b) Which of both would you be, M.E. ?

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  11. Anon, M.E. rarely posts here (if ever), well about a.) I read that people are psychopats from birth, while sociopathy, narcissism can be caused because of bad parenting and so on (but these disorders can exist from birth too). Ones disorder depends on his reaction to situation. If a person will start to glorify himself (etc.), to feel better he can become a narc, if he would develop a realistic view (and so on) then one might turn to be a sociopath. Anyway, I think that one has to have differences from 'normal' people since birth to develop a disorder. It's actually a pretty interesting.
    I'll leave b.) for big M.E. xD

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  12. Oh my god you are so right xD

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  13. How To Heal a PDMay 28, 2012 at 7:12 AM

    You have to be able to step away from yourself. This gap allows you to see yourself, as you are. Your "self" is separate from all distortions which are the nature of mental and emotional problems . defining it is one thing. Doing it is another.

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  14. Self-awareness goes nowhere if you don’t have a map to it. Names come from society. Nobody wakes up one morning and spy a ghostly hand on the wall writing the sentence “You are a Sociopath”. You should be able to find, check and secure standards so as to empower you to find your identity; expecting it from society is mostly a cul-de-sac thing.

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    1. If society tells you that you are a sociopath, then it's probably too late for you to change anything ;)

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    2. Nobody else can tell, apart from society. You, yourself, will never be able to do so, no matter how hard you try. At least that's my view on it. The available standards are too scarce, ill defined, volatile.

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    3. I disagree. The person with the distortions knows there is something wrong with him. I suppose he knows it by being a member of society and knowing he is not quite right. I will give you that, Jose.

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    4. Where’s the red line that you cross when you stop having antisocial trends and start being a sociopath, that’s what I’d most badly want to know. The same for narcissists: Where do you stop having some narcissist ingredient in your personality and start having a disorder? If all depends ultimately on how dysfunctional you can get, then society is both judge and part in it, which sounds at least suspicious in my ear.

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    5. Jose
      First of all, one has to be Narcissistic. There is healthy Narcissism which is the HALLMARK of the emotionally healthy person. So, one has to start there, in this discussion imo

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    6. You can notice that something is wrong with you by analysing the society ant realising that majority of people are different. So this way society is an indicator, so you can stop crying now, Jose :)
      Just a theory: the line between normal and disorder could be based on empathy :/

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    7. Well, thanks to both for confirming I'm right; it's society what matters to begin and to end with it. It's all about society so are we speaking about sociopaths? oh, come on! we are speaking about fitting inside society, as we always do when we speak about psychology.

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    8. The person has an interface with society. That interface show the person there is something wrong with him. I agree. He is out of the norm of society.

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    9. Yes, the person does not fit into society. BUT, it is not because society defines it. It is because he does not fit.

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    10. Well, if they do not fit, they feel pain, and they translate this pain into a name which comes from society, just as the pain does. Eventually, what you do is becoming more and more entangled in society’s sticky cobweb. You think it’s your problem, but actually you are carrying other people problems on your shoulders.

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    11. Yes, it can become a kind of a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

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    12. Well, I'd say pain comes first, we feel pain when we are not fully accepted: long before we can realize where does it come from, we're already suffering, and we start looking for the reason, but the reason is in front of us. It’s NOT what we are, it’s plain rejection. The great advantage of our gigantic, entangled, overgrown society is that you can change your environment as many times as necessary, until you fit. That’s far better than looking desperately for a label to wear before you go back where you’ve already being rejected.

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    13. It has to be the egg! Chickens lay eggs, but chicken had to came to this world from an egg. First chicken probably was a mutation of an animal or a product of evolution, but it had to hatch from an egg, because if not, when chickens wouldn't lay eggs. And the animal came to this world from a sea, where it (or it's relatives started to evolve) and later it layed a disordered egg or slowly evolved into a chicken, but new product of evolution had to be born, in this case, from an egg :)

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    14. Well, we come to this world crying, so I guess pain always comes first.

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    15. Yeah, pain and fear rules most of people.

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    16. That they come first doesn't mean they have to rule you. Basic is not the same as inevitable. In fact you obtain very different combinations with the same basic ingredients.

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    17. If pain is always there for the narcissist maybe that's why they are in the comedy business. Without laughing how would they survive?

      I just saw a Joan Rivers special where she is followed around doing her show and commenting on her self and her life. She seems like the saddest most desperate woman-child.

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    18. Maybe, everyone is like Joan Rivers. She just shows herself and the rest of us hide.

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    19. I really liked her, too. She has nerves and guts. She doesn't turn down work of any kind. admits to doing shit jobs, she's as real as they come. But for her roast she admits the jabs hurt a bit. But she rolls with the punches. You don't have a choice in life but to do so.

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    20. Yep I like her a lot, too. All humor is rooted in truth or it would not be funny.

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    21. Joan Rivers is HIlarious. I love watching her do fashion police.

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    22. You remind me of her sometimes, Raven. You have a healthy sense of humor.

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    23. I agree about Raven. She cracks me up on a daily basis.

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    24. Really? Because I've always been told by my friends that I have a fairly warped sense of humor. Sometimes a disgusting one. I like different types of humor. Ellen DeGeneres has a motto she lives by, that she never uses her humor to hurt people with.

      I think her stand up is brilliant. I think humor like hers, is very healthy.

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    25. good point, Raven.

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  15. How To Heal a PDMay 28, 2012 at 7:46 AM

    Jose
    I think you see society DEFINING a person. I see the inside being a certain way. The outgrowth of that is that society labels a person.

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    1. Not only that, I also see so many people willingo to be DEFINED by society, and that's the sad side of it.

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    2. How To Heal a PDMay 28, 2012 at 7:55 AM

      I agree that people should not be defined by society--100%. However, it is the internal set of distortions which are categorized to the ultimate label, Jose.

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    3. Whether people should or shouldn’t be defined by society, still the question is that they WANT to be defined by it, that they get a kick from receiving a name from society, even if it’s a deprecatory one.

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    4. I don't agree, Jose.

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    5. It’s a bit like people wouldn’t exist without society’s tyranny. Like what Milan Kundera explains about the “Unbearable lightness of being”

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    6. No man is an island or a vacuum, Jose.

      Except you, I'm sure?

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  16. How funny. I thought johnny boy was just making a little joke, when he mentioned some new comer needing to go to Narcissistworld. That's pretty awesome! You should start giving referrals, M.E.

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    1. Raven could mean me, but I know that there are people stronger, smarter, so on, than me. I try to keep in touch and manipulate these people, because they are more useful. The are more differences, but I have to go to water the cat and feed plants now.
      P.s. are there any more new comers here?

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    2. No, Mee... jonny boy was referring to a new comer in the forum. You do know there is a forum for SW, right?

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    3. If I knew, I would be there...

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    4. Okay, well cool. If you go to the top right corner of this blog, you will see an option for 'forum'. Click on that, and presto.

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    5. A lot of stupid shit goes on in the Forum. Watch your ass, Mee.

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    6. Ha ha. As always. If I am able to find somethig in people sentences that could be related to making me feel bad for something I always believe that this is what they are doing (even if it's not completely related to me), I don't trust and never expect anything good from people =\ atleast I don't give a fuck then they really try to make me feel bad, lol
      I still don't understand why people try to make conversations with me in reality, I mean, if I want something I take it and move away without long boring conversations, that's why I can't understand others :( and I hate when someone congratulates me too, because I already know that I suceeded in something.
      (Found the forum, will check it later).

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    7. I'm sure Mee can hold his own. After all, he is a sociopath, right? He'll be just fine.

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    8. I am wondering why you want him to come up there, Raven. Maybe to fuck with him?

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    9. I didn't ask him to come up there. I was clarifying for him, that I was talking about a conversation held in the forum. I figured by now, most people who come here know their way around.

      It's his choice to go, or not. I could just as easily fuck with him down here. It's not like being in the forum gives you super-human powers.

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    10. Actually I was joking about Narcissistworld.com. It was pure serendipity that ME put up this blog today. I found the narcissistworld blog entries very useful.

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    11. I know... I saw what you posted on the forum about it, but I had already posted this comment. I peeped in on it briefly. I'll read more thoroughly later.

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  17. Then ok, you get the label, you deserve it and all that and what the hell do you do after that? Is there really anything you can do, with that funny name? You don’t even know what is natural in you and what isn’t, how far can you get, where the danger starts… You don’t know that, you know nothing, so the “discovery” is no use whatsoever.

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    1. Well the only thing that discovery like this gives to you is that you know more about yourself. And knowing shit doesn't damage you.

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    2. jose, is it possible for you to stay in one place with one conversation? The whole message you're trying to send, gets kind of lost with you answering questions, by forming a new thread.

      It kind of makes me dizzy.

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    3. I disagree Jose. There are things you can do but most people don't want to do them.

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    4. To begin with, you should be able to know when you are being dysfunctional and when it’s just a hue that could even be felt as becoming by the others (always the others): Not easy, not easy at all. Most people are fully unaware of that point: even famous people, sitting under the limelight, show their inability to detect the crossing of the red line, and you know why? Because the red light is different for everyone of us, and we have to discover it first, which implies looking inside, which implies getting a flashlight first, which implies, as a primary step, worry much less of society, especially of your immediate relations, and much more of the horizon, the cultural one, the psychological one and all the others horizons, general conceptions, misconceptions, etc. That seems very unpractical, but it’s the best point to start.

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    5. I agree 100% Jose. You rock, Bro :)

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    6. Well thanks, I'd be satisfied with this coming across as plain, because it's all in our everyday experience.

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    7. Do you genuinely believe that knowledge provides no benefits to society?

      That discovery is no use whatsoever?

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  18. I want to thank ME for how this blog has turned around.

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    1. CEO SociopathworldMay 28, 2012 at 11:50 AM

      I'll tell him for ya.

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    2. Tips hat :)

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    3. Is it M.E. that turned around, or the commenters? Because if it's the later, why should M.E. get credit for that?

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    4. It was a combo of things.

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  19. Where’s the red line that you cross when you stop having antisocial trends and start being a sociopath, that’s what I’d most badly want to know. The same for narcissists: Where do you stop having some narcissist ingredient in your personality and start having a disorder? If all depends ultimately on how dysfunctional you can get, then society is both judge and part in it, which sounds at least suspicious in my ear.


    "Society" doesn't really care one way or an other to label you as some kind of disordered personality. Psychology is the one who labels and categorizes people.

    My cousin was saying when she interviews a patient she has a chart of traits and just puts a number on the traits (I don't know if it's 1-10 or just a 1 and 0). When she goes over her notes she sums them up. Abandonment issues, insecurity, mood swings, etc.

    Psychologists came up with a category of psychopathy because there was a certain type of person who persisted in tricking, conning, robbing, and generally being a nuisance to the rest of society. The PCL came to be to screen out people who were not psychopaths, because some psychologists would mislabel someone a psychopath just because they share some of the same traits.

    A psychopath has a extreme mix of traits that combined make them destructive, while at the same time manipulative enough that most people will not see it until they are caught up in their charisma. Psychopaths are accepted by society more so than other people. Psychopaths easily gain leadership positions in organizations and in people's lives that they will turn around and abuse. If they were some wierdo that people stayed away from it wouldn't matter, but the fact that they are charming and easily accepted in positions of trust in people's lives makes psychopaths dangerous to psychologists and labeled a pathology.

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    1. Psychologist are agents of public opinion, representatives of society's fears and concerns. They work for the society, not for the individual.

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    2. I think the difference is the level of the lack of conscience. If it's a spectrum you just look at the levels.

      If you have a partner they will tell you you crossed a line. Or the law will tell you, or your children will tell you.

      If you find yourself alone at the end of the day and you aren't happy, you're dysfunctional.

      If you find yourself alone at the end of the day and you don't care, you're in great shape.

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    3. The same goes for names like sociopath and psychopath. They were invented for society, not for the individual. So the individual can find no use for them. Society loves to say: well, the reason for that shocking behaviour is just... sociopath traits! or... if they can do such horrible things it's because they are... psychopaths! The names have more to do with politics than they have to do with self awareness.

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    4. What exactly do you mean by 'society'?

      Do you count psychologists, psychiatrists, and professional researchers and 'society'? Because I hardly think they are using that kind of lazy logic you are talking about. And they are the ones who came up with the labels. It wasn't like someone was like... "This dude seems psychopathic... therefore I dub the condition 'Psychopathy'!"

      Come on.

      The whole "don't be a sheep" argument you are implying, the same one that people really love using wherever they can to feel superior to idiots, has a whole lot of holes in it if you actually take a look at it.

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    5. If individuals had no use for labels we wouldn't get a new douche bag every day trying to say they think theyre a sociopath... they're dying for labels. You're dying for a label. You still believe the conspiracy theories because you can't accept your own need to be labeled and fit in. You still want to think your special because you just don't know where you fit in yet.

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  20. Anon 11:10: dysfunction is not a feeling, it is a relation among elements. If everybody who is alone at night and doesn't feel good is dysfunctional 99% of people are dysfunctional. No, your partner doesn't know where the line is painted, let alone your children, or the police... they know where the line is for them, for you they have no idea.

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    1. I thouht that disorders are things where if they come to a point they are interfering with your daily functioning, they need attention. Isn't that what a dysfunction is?

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    2. All im saying is that if you are a dickface and you know it and you don't have a problem you function fine, but if you're a dickface and you don't understand why people leave, so you're unaware. If you're unhappy, you are not functioning properly because you might not be aware. YOur circle will tell you. I'm not talking about being up at night, I'm talking about not being able to keep your family or your job because you are not aware that you have to adjust your dickface to suit the lifestyle you want.

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    3. Society couldn't care less for the well being of its members. Its main concern is the smooth functioning of its mechanisms; dysfunction is about social mechanisms, not about self sensations. If you lose your job or get five fines on a row, or your children stop going to school... Then you are dysfunctional. Whether you are happy or unhappy that’s up to you.

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    4. Right, people who are dysfunctional aren't necessarily unhappy. Clearly.

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    5. Well, you see; Psychologist don’t care. They are there to keep things under control, to prevent unpleasant events, major damage... that’s all. Not because they care. A plane crashes and the place gets crowded with psychologists on the airline payroll. They just want to control the image damage, play down legal suits, take panic scenes out of public notice, they want to keep the eye on the potentially most damaging behaviours, those who could cost money or cause bad headlines or both. The same can be said for those who examine sociopaths or psychos. They aren’t there to help them, but to reassure society.

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    6. Sounds like you've had a pretty bad experience with psychologists. No need to malign the purpose of the whole field, though.

      Just because some people use something for political reasons, doesn't mean it's political in and of itself.

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  21. We should do away with all psych terms and replace them with dickface.

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  22. Psychologist are agents of public opinion, representatives of society's fears and concerns. They work for the society, not for the individual.


    That's bollocks. Most of the public knows nothing of psychology and cares very little about it. A majority of psychologists have private practices which deal with helping individuals come to terms with who they are not mandating public opinion. You speak like you have some victim complex. SOCIETY IS OPPRESSION! PSYCHOLOGY IS PERSECUTING ME! Give me a break.

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    1. You could be happy or unhappy with or without a job, with or without a family for what it’s worth, but that’s irrelevant to psychologists; they are busy with those who don’t adjust to the actual circumstances and conditions. They say (on behalf of society): this is the goal, do you agree, are you ready to come along? If you are not sure (not being sure is, to my mind, very reasonable in any case) they just leave. They won’t stay there to help you find out what you want.

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    2. That’s why using psychology language when talking about your personal experiences is a catch you should try to avoid. It’s like giving up on finding a life of your own and try to buy it on TV-shop, at discount price, instead.

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    3. Well said, Jose!

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    4. Jose, you sound like some anarchist teenager. Just because you can't see the parts that make up the item on the so-called TV-shop (horrible analogy), doesn't mean everyone is that blind or ignorant, or that the person who made that item had no idea what he was making when he made it.

      If you decide that everything society does that effects you or defines you is false and should be avoided or has nothing to do with you, then you end up with society being your prison anyway, because you are defining yourself by trying not to be defined by society. That's like, just as lame.

      "That band is too mainstream now, I can't listen to them anymore!"

      Eventually you will have no more bands to listen to.

      They won’t stay there to help you find out what you want.

      That's not their job.

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    5. We could talk about psychology in forms of archetypes. :-) a person is made up of psychological archetypes, that implement themselves through the environment. Those cues and even symbols can be detected and studied to provide insight to the types of people the world can produce. Its like each person begins as a seed, and the conditions of the environment effect the level of growth, the amount of leaves, etc, but the tree is still the same. The goal of the seed is to reach its best potential for the circumstances of its environment, so there are many possible turns a personality can take, but the archetypes begin to repeat, because you can't have an orchard of orange trees and suddenly yield a maple. Psychology studies the seed, the trees, the environmental factors and categorizes the trees to find the best directions for those trees to grow in. Life is made better and more productive by the educational fields. We're able to find things like anima, animus, and the subconscious to help us to find productive paths for society and the individual.

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    6. Archetypes are powerful. That is true.

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  23. Now I can't help but wonder if any of my comments are the kind of comments ME considered self-deceived. Although I have no way of knowing if my comments are even noticed. I wonder what he means when he talks about obviously self-deceived people. It could mean a lot of things. It's obvious what it means in the case of narcissism, but I guess in the comments of this blog there are more kind of deception than just narcissism.

    ReplyDelete

  24. Well, you see; Psychologist don’t care. They are there to keep things under control, to prevent unpleasant events, major damage... that’s all. Not because they care. A plane crashes and the place gets crowded with psychologists on the airline payroll. They just want to control the image damage, play down legal suits, take panic scenes out of public notice, they want to keep the eye on the potentially most damaging behaviours, those who could cost money or cause bad headlines or both. The same can be said for those who examine sociopaths or psychos. They aren’t there to help them, but to reassure society.


    You have very little experience or comprehension of psychology as a field and this statement right here shows it. You sound like a rebellious teenager trying to figure the world out still thinking that everyone is trying to keep them down.

    Psychologists examine psychopaths because they want to know why someone is bent on malicious behaviour that is completely unpredictable. If it wasn't for them studying psychopaths you wouldn't have this site or know anything about them. The word psychopath would not exist.

    Very very very few psychopaths will ever see the inside of a psychologists office, unless they do something extremely spectacular to warrant it. Like serial arsons, bombings, or heinous murders.

    Thinking that society and psychologists are going around hunting down the likes of you is just ridiculous. Nobody cares about you. You are just a grain of sand in the midst of dunes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In your own interest, you should take the individual point of view because if you enjoy life or find it insufferable it is only from a strictly individual point of view. The foolish thing is assuming society’s point of view instead of yours: when you look at yourself, when you seek self-awareness, you are on your own, and the results of your pursuit are completely irrelevant to society.

      Delete
    2. you should take the individual point of view because if you enjoy life or find it insufferable it is only from a strictly individual point of view.

      That's bullshit, Jose. You are being very black and white, either/or. Individual or society. It doesn't work like that. It all connects, you know.

      Neither the individual nor society lives in vacuums.

      Delete

  25. You could be happy or unhappy with or without a job, with or without a family for what it’s worth, but that’s irrelevant to psychologists; they are busy with those who don’t adjust to the actual circumstances and conditions. They say (on behalf of society): this is the goal, do you agree, are you ready to come along? If you are not sure (not being sure is, to my mind, very reasonable in any case) they just leave. They won’t stay there to help you find out what you want

    You made all that up. My wife is studying to become a therapist and my cousin is already one. The first rule they have is that you don't push your goals on the patient. You listen to what goals that they have and you help them obtain it. Unless you are a muppet (Which could be the case) crowing to the moon in some nuthouse you don't have to see a psychologist/psychiatrist unless you choose to. People who do so are seeking to fix something that disables them from becoming successful or happy in life.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Only when you’ve come to terms with yourself will you be in the position to be valued by society, not before. A person without a mature and developed point of view will never be highly valued by society. And shaping it, and making it strong is your personal task, for which psychologists or society won’t show you the way.

      Delete
    2. By the way, give your psychologist family my compliments. I think they are great professionals; society needs them.

      Delete
    3. Jose 12:47
      Well said, Man.

      Delete
    4. Only when you’ve come to terms with yourself

      'Yourself', which is not and cannot be separated from 'society' (unless you are a narcissist).

      And shaping it, and making it strong is your personal task

      Again, no man is an island.

      Delete
    5. 'Yourself', which is not and cannot be separated from 'society' (unless you are a narcissist).

      Triple Double Word.

      Delete

  26. In your own interest, you should take the individual point of view because if you enjoy life or find it insufferable it is only from a strictly individual point of view. The foolish thing is assuming society’s point of view instead of yours: when you look at yourself, when you seek self-awareness, you are on your own, and the results of your pursuit are completely irrelevant to society.


    "Society" doesn't have a consensus on many point of views. That's why when you go to gatherings of anymore than five people it's best to stay away from religion and politics in conversation.

    The people around your immediate vincinity have a point of view about you because they have met you. That point of view is important because if you can't make a good impression anywhere there is something wrong with you, trust me. Your own point of view can be trusted as corraberation, and a very untrusted one at that. Most people's view of themself is riddled with delusions that prop up weaknesses as strengths or put down strengths in an attempt to defeat themself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's very right, society doesn't have a point of view; that's why psychology is about function or malfunction, mechanisms not about meaning, sense, points of view. You sum it up greatly. If you want a point of view you will have to get one by yourself, without society, psychologists or public statements.

      Delete
    2. You have no clue what psychology is about, because your grasp of it is gleemed off of internet forums full of narcisssists with a persecution complex that you can identify with. Only working with your own view of yourself without being able to see others view of you is the perfect recipe for being delusional. It will hinder any kind of influence you can have on anyone because you are completely blind to the impression others have of you.

      Delete
    3. You have no clue what psychology is about, because your grasp of it is gleemed off of internet forums full of narcisssists with a persecution complex that you can identify with. Only working with your own view of yourself without being able to see others view of you is the perfect recipe for being delusional. It will hinder any kind of influence you can have on anyone because you are completely blind to the impression others have of you.


      Word.

      Delete
  27. The first thing you need when you have to deal with yourself is a point of view. Without it you will never know if you are on the right way or the wrong one, you won’t know what to think of what you do, of what you have, of what you desire. It’s the same when you have a problem let’s say in wal-mart and you try to fix it by reading the company rule book; it’s not there to help you, it’s there to help the company. Sometimes you can get a collateral benefit from it, but the sure thing is knowing what you want and what you don’t want before entering the mall, in this way you’ll seldom be disappointed. If you go about the aisles letting yourself be driven by the ads, the colours and the hype, nine times out of twelve you will end up unhappy with the result.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The ads are up there from understanding the way people work and targeting the triggers they have to make them buy. That's marketing. That's power. Someone like you who is so self involved would not be able to have that kind of influence. The irony is that you're so busy trying to be different that you are just the same.

      Delete
    2. Well, I'm not in the ad business, I have to admit it.

      Delete
    3. The irony is that you're so busy trying to be different that you are just the same.

      Double Word.

      Delete
    4. Have you ever negotiated something, Jose? Do you know what it feels like to win when you have all the chips on your side?

      Delete
  28. To me, the word psychopath/sociopath has very little value. The whole point I try to put across is that psychopath or sociopath are labels with little or no use when it comes to deal with yourself, your self control, self awareness, the way to treat others or to treat yourself. Ideas like sense, meaning, reality, imagination, desire, loathing, and many others are far more relevant to any personal pursuit; you can find them in books of all sort, philosophy, even fiction when it’s quality fiction, and there you have the starting point: the rest of the way is up to you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To me, the word psychopath/sociopath has very little value.

      It has very little value to the person being labeled, but that's not the point of labels. It does have value for the person(s) doing the labeling.

      We already talked about all this a couple days ago.

      It's like you are repeating what I said, but without any understanding of it whatsoever.

      Delete

  29. To me, the word psychopath/sociopath has very little value.


    Yet here you are on a Sociopath blog.

    People that cry about labels want to be different. ITS THE MAN PUTTING US DOWN, DON'T LABEL ME! You think you are special. Once you are able to see a world outside of you projecting yourself onto everyone, which I doubt will happen anytime soon, you will understand that you will meet a certain clump of traits in people over and over and over again. That's what makes it so easy to influence people. That's why advertising, psychology, sales, manipulation, conning, and influence are so effective. People are predictable. That's why you meet people who remind you of someone else you know. They have similiar tempermants and similiar behaviours that if you understand enough, you can get the same reactions to things you say or ways you make them feel. That is what control is all about.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Control, manipulation, conning... well it doesn’t look like the good way to know yourself. Maybe you’re more interested in disguising yourself...

      Delete
    2. Forget all the manipulation whatever... that's a separate issue.

      But people really are predictable, whether or not you want to manipulate them.

      And deciding to manipulate people as opposed to conducting your life in other ways doesn't imply anything about knowing or not-knowing yourself. All it says is how you chose to deal, or how you act upon who you are.

      Delete
  30. Chesterton said, in his essay “Heretics” that if you want to stay healthy and to get that goal you have to choose between thinking of the horror of disease or choosing a positive inspiration that brings your goal near you, you may choose either, but surely the road will be a lot more pleasant if you choose the second. Translating here I’d suggest that before learning the names of diseases and wondering how near you are from them, you should try and find out the name of health and walk in that direction.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Funny how you go on about not being fooled by someone else's conceptions, yet you quote someone else about how to achieve a goal?

      How is what Chesterton said any different than what, say, a psychologist might say?

      Delete
    2. So obviously you must be eating healthy, exercising, and meditating every day and have been of good health since this discovery?

      If you do all of these things, as my husband and i do, you'd be aware of your allergies, colds, and health variations outside of your control because you can feel the difference between internal and external variations on a base level. Saying diseases don't exist is a convenient way to acquire them.

      Choosing to be oblivious is not the same as deciding to be positive.

      Delete
  31. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    What's interesting is that the topic is about stopping self deception, which is exactly what you practice and preach.

    ReplyDelete

  32. Control, manipulation, conning... well it doesn’t look like the good way to know yourself. Maybe you’re more interested in disguising yourself...

    The only way to control and manipulate other people is if you know them. You have to know yourself first before you can truely know anyone else.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Very wrong. You don’t need to know people to manipulate them; all you need is discover their weak points, and that’s incredibly easy, because most people have the same weak points. That’s why the ad business is profitable. Nothing to do with the individual; it deals with the masses.

      Delete
    2. First you said you didn't even know who you were and now you say you know yourself. You don't ever make any sense, do you?

      Delete
    3. You said you were a lie once.

      Delete
    4. I am a lie. That's who I am.

      Delete
    5. You don't ever make any sense, do you?

      Another way of saying: Everything you say goes over my head

      Delete
    6. Raven
      I speak above the heads of some but not those who want to understand more than what lies above the surface.

      Delete
    7. not at all. He said I don't even know who I am. I am a lie

      Delete
    8. Shane
      Do you even know what you are talking about? Think before you spout that pathetic nonsense.

      Delete
    9. Shane, trust me when I say that what he means is going over your head. Besides the fact is, you are narrowing his original statement. He didn't say: I don't even know who I am and leave it at that.
      I recall that comment, and he said much more than that.

      Your shortening it to support your argument.

      Delete
    10. Do you really need someone to put it all together for you Shane, because I would think by your second username you used and all the reading you have done on what I've said you would be able to figure it out for yourself.

      Delete
    11. Well, lies are interesting, Ukan isn't.

      Delete
    12. You tend to do this a lot, avoiding the actual question and making it people's misinterpretations. It's a clever way of keeping control. I'll give you that.

      Delete

    13. Raven
      I speak above the heads of some but not those who want to understand more than what lies above the surface

      Shane
      Do you even know what you are talking about? Think before you spout that pathetic nonsense



      Well at least you are learning to capitalize the K when you imitate me. Too bad imitating intellect is beyond you.

      Delete
    14. Shane, just because you can't keep up with me does not mean that I am near your level. Grow a pair.

      Delete
    15. If I wasn't entertaining I wouldn't have one person in here imitating me and another making another account to get me back for their injury.

      Delete
    16. Ever considering apologizing, UKan?

      Delete
    17. If a person apologizes, he has to mean it and stop doing the same thing, again and again. If not, why bother?

      Delete
    18. I am at home in all places. I will make them serve me, and willingly.

      Delete
    19. because most people have the same weak points.

      And ta da! You just totally contradicted your whole argument. Yes, most people have the same weak points (read: predictable). Labels are shorthand for describing those weak points about other people. That is all.

      Delete
    20. Jose, you cannot hold your own. Go back to where you came from.

      Delete
  33. I raise myself up because I know myself and I know my competition. How about you?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Diseases are mainly a collective concern. They are important because they can affect a number of people; you have specialists on the matter, and health services, and so on, But everybody knows (well, maybe not everybody, but many people) that there are not diseases, there are ill people, and every one of them is different. Keeping this in mind you’ll find it easy to understand why psychology cannot give individual solutions, and the responsible action of the individual can never be replaced. Those who don’t want to exercise it will never come anywhere, they’ll only revolve around their symptoms expecting them to disappear at the conjuring of the shrink.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are diseases, and those diseases make people ill. Your grasp of medicine is similiar to your grasp of psychology. Both of which you fear and you fear them because you don't understand them.

      Delete

    2. Very wrong. You don’t need to know people to manipulate them; all you need is discover their weak points, and that’s incredibly easy, because most people have the same weak points.

      You like to generalize everything. Your simplistic view of the world is your weakness.

      People have different weaknesses and strengths. If you can't grasp that simple concept you are a complete fool.

      Delete
  35. There is a general principle of the law according to which “Nemo praesumitur gratuito malus” that amounts to say that you cannot infer that someone would act against the interest of the society or the individuals without a reason. Well, that’s been the official position for centuries, but now we have new problems, we’ve found cases in which this principle doesn’t apply, and they are very famous, media-relevant cases. They make law makers sweat and look for scientific evidence that helps them find a compromise solution to save the general building of law and order. But I would say it’s not just this building which is crumbling in our time, but the wide and general context of moral and ethics. That’s where the individual swims and tries to come afloat. The specialist are concerned with the building. The individuals should be concerned with their own lives.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you a libertarian? (Someone said the other day that libertarian is just a Republican with a bong...lol)

      In case you haven't noticed, we are in one the most individualist societies in history already. And you see how well that is going.

      Delete
  36. UKan CommiserateMay 28, 2012 at 2:28 PM

    Jose, what good does it do you to spout that drivel? Can you use it to help the society to which you seem so intent on preserving?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He's not talking about preserving society idiot. He's talking about generalizing it.

      Delete
  37. If you ask the doctor to give your pain a name he may well comply, but you will not feel less pain as a result of that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anyone who goes into a doctor's office and expects that a name will cure him, is an idiot. Any doctor who thinks that giving a patient a name will cure them is also an idiot and probably doesn't actually have a medical degree.

      That's not the point of names and labels.

      Delete
    2. I know... let's take the labels off EVERYTHING! Everybody stop giving names to different kinds of foods, buildings, vehicles, clothing and so on! Pretty soon we won't know how to even talk to each other, and we can go back to grunting like a bunch of apes!

      I LOVEIT! I sounds so liberating! Who's with me?? :D

      Delete
    3. I had the very same thought! Yay!

      What an ideal world that would be, eh?

      Delete
    4. Raven - lol you make me laugh..I hate to be mean I really don't understand Jose at all....in the slightest actually. He says a lot of "deep" stuff that makes zero sense. I keep reading what he writes and wanting to find some inkling of logic, meaning, something and I don't see it...it's actually very frustrating because i feel like I do understand some people here much more so than my every day crowd.

      Delete
    5. Ummm, well let me translate him for you:

      Googley woogally schmooglally. Sloopy doopy do. Nook nook pooky. Larky darky spark.

      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise

      Delete
    6. :) really laughing right now it's too funny because you put your finger on it Raven.

      Jose - I don't mean to be mean I'm sure you're a smart guy but some of this stuff doesn't make much sense to English speaking people here. That being said I'm sure if I were trying to write in Spanish I would sound much worse.

      Delete
  38. No he will compare your illness to a list of similiar illnesses that s/he is trained in diagnosing. Illnesses that people have had before.

    ReplyDelete
  39. You can obfuscate, Jose. The truth remains the same whether or not idiots like you see it.

    ReplyDelete
  40. UKan - I think I understand the gist of your statement or part of what you said -- I know myself and I am a lie..I understand how someone can present a certain self to the world "to fit in" or figure out what works on people, or maybe just to manipulate and then do that but be completely different on the inside. I'm an introvert and yet nobody would ever say that about me. I'm shy, I like to read, analyze,etc. but I present a different persona because that's what works. Sometimes I surprise myself though and realize that I am different from other people I know...I'm always looking at things from a different angle. I don't take things at face value, when friends ask me about wow this strange thing happened to them, or someone said something odd...I look at it and try to figure out what reason there is and it's usually underhanded, mean, sneaky...they are shocked..they say "oh no I'm sure you're wrong"..and then I turn out to be right..it freaks them out and they find it disturbing so I keep my analysis to myself more. Sometimes I wonder how people can be so naive and not see so many things around them and then I realize that is why I put on a persona like my clothes, guard my inner self with this shell and don't like many people.

    ReplyDelete
  41. What it was in reference to was mirroring people.

    My wife is an introvert and is very blunt. People are taken back when she tells them what she thinks about situations that happened to them. She used to keep it to herself, but now she doesn't care. They need to hear it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ukan - funny I think I may be like her..I used to care and now I don't...at all. Well sometimes i manipulate but the thing is it matters so little what anyone thinks ever...nothing gets to me. The little jabs and tricks people pull on each other to hurt I see right through and can up them tenfold if I wanted. I find it boring and sad though dealing with pathetic egos who can't hear truth like to live in fantasy land. They can give it but can't take it. I rarely give it but when I do...they are in shock and the funny thing is they pretend I never did it. They pretend it never happened because they can't deal with what I say and that they know it is true and that it's painful to accept and that I knew it all along but pretended to play along with their little act sends them into post traumatic stress disorder..lol

      Amazing the biggest bully will slink back in despair when they know you have their number and see through their tricks, games, lies. It's lonely though because I wish there were more people I liked or who were worthy adversaries.

      Delete
  42. Go easy on Jose. He is one of the best posters we have had in a long time. He brings up the rent of this place. Disagree but don't be flat out mean and nasty.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He'd might be okay if he first go over himself. We are merely helping him with that.

      Delete
    2. Wow, I can't even form a sentence right.

      Take two:

      He might be okay if he got over himself first.

      Delete
    3. Here is the thing. Fights are OK, once in a while but an all fight channel sucks.

      Delete
    4. I can agree with that. Anything can get old.

      Delete
    5. Too much of a good thing.

      Delete
    6. Monica - are fights a good thing? i don't think so nothing is gained when people are annoyed that's why I usually sweep everything under the rug and say all the things they want to hear..then they like me and do things and open up to me...I'm their "friend". I don't want people to hate me just because deep down I may hate them...

      It's so refreshing here since we can be honest there is no need to be nice, friendly, sociable ;)lol I can be real and tell u what I really think and it's fun. I never get to do this in real life.

      Delete
    7. In moderation, but even here, too much is too much. That is why I think ME put up the divisions.

      Delete
  43. Monica - can you explain Jose's point? Because I totally don't understand it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He offers hell of a lot imo. Take what you like and leave the rest. Who is totally cogent here?

      Delete
    2. Monica - what does he offer in his last few statements exactly? I don't get it in the least..that we should not have names for identifiable disorders, or pretend everyone is the same just because naming it doesn't help curing it? Of course it doesn't...usually there is no cure for the psyche. We are who we are and we deal with it or not..Jose speaks in riddles in a second language i don't see the point in any of his points.

      Delete
  44. He has said a few gems about looking within yourself and finding out what makes you tick before anything else. He has said that one must accept all parts of oneself before one can be any good to oneself or others. Some things I don't agree with. Some things I don't understand. However, he talks like a human being and is not chasing people down like friggin possum.

    ReplyDelete
  45. accepting oneself..yes you better you better love yourself because no one else will otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I don't have a problem loving myself it's just that I hate almost everyone else;) even if they love me.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Hey, Mee...

    If you did not get the following was Monica, you might be a low-functioning sociopath if that.

    AnonymousMay 27, 2012 2:04 AM
    Mini mee,you might be experiencing some type of 'dissociative'.You sound bored but you may not have been born a S.Maybe due to your circumstances and upbringing you identify with S's more than empaths.If that is the case don't succumb to "the shadow" because you will never be at peace with yourself.

    You sound young.Explore the numbness,it could be coming more from a need to connect,and a fear of connecting at the same time.

    If you are young,seek help.You will know when you find the one that is meant to help you.(a lot of psych pros are very fucked up.Learn to be very discerning).

    It's sad that you can't have that guidance from your family.(they are probably the ones that fucked you up in the first place.Unless you were born S.

    Fucken hell Mini Mee, just go see someone and see where it leads you.

    These fuckers are going to do your head in.Most of them are Multiple Personality Disordered.Good for a laugh,but not to be taken seriously.Sometimes insightful,but mostly fucked up.(entertaining on some levels,but boring on others).

    Choose...because I'm thinking all this from you is just for attention.

    Reply

    ReplyDelete
  48. Monica when you see wisdom it is a sign of foolishness.

    ReplyDelete

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