Sunday, November 23, 2014

An aspie's thoughts on sociopaths

A friendly Aspie named who knows actual sociopaths has been leaving interesting comments in old threads this week. On the post "Pretending to be Normal," Darien writes:

As an Aspie myself, I find this hilarious. (I cracked up at the "bla bla bla" bit.) It's so ironic that people pat us on the back all the time, and then talk about how sociopaths should all be thrown in the brig.

Aspies have empathy. It's just bit restricted. A) We often fail to realize when we need to be sensitive. B) Most of the time (thankfully) our empathy operates through a filter. (I suspect it's one of the reasons people come to me for help, even when I have no familiarity with the problem. I empathize, but I can detatch enough to look at the situation objectively, and help them to better contain/modify/utilize aspects of themselves and others, even those (such as jealousy) with which I am personally unable to relate.)
I like sociopaths. Not in an idealized way, but in the sense that I can relate to people who often can't relate. I know that it takes effort to learn those aspects of social interaction which seem silly or useless, and learn to mimic emotions and inflections and body language and the like. Learning to mimic empathy and normalcy can be fun. Testing out new techniques and tweaks, throwing in a new word here and there, to see how people internalize its connotations. Putting emphasis on this word instead of that one. I don't know quite how you guys do it, and of course everyone has their own system. But I like sociopaths because I understand the need to develop those systems, and study the things that don't come naturally. 

And it's true, people get creeped out when they hear how a sociopath operates. But they pat us Aspies on the back. There are a lot of differences, but we do a lot of the same things.

(As a side note, it is perfectly possible for someone to be both an Aspie and a sociopath. But it's very rare.)

So basically to sum it up, I love this post. It made my day.

From "Sociopaths: Pitiable?":

No one is worthy of pity. Pity is a ridiculous sentiment. It's not at all the same as caring. It's a way for people (obviously not socios because they don't need to do this) to make themselves feel better about not actually doing shit to help someone. People say "oh I'm so sorry," or hand a dollar to the homeless man, and say " I did good, I care," and then casually ignore the fact that they could be doing so much more, but aren't. I have no respect for pity and I've never experienced it. I care when I care, I empathize when I empathize; but if I don't, then I don't, and I'm not going to drop in a dollar just to make myself feel better.

That little rant over, I typically know when my socio is manipulating me, but he (usually, at least) is not untruthful even then, because he knows I know and I'm fine. Manipulation is in his nature, plus I'm sure it's mildly entertaining. I do feel badly for him sometimes, for instance, when he hasn't slept for days; but even when something's wrong I usually have to dig it out of him. 
That holds true for the other ones I know as well (for the most part.). So I'd say no, there's not much of a pity act, although our relationships are a bit atypical because I am aware of their personalities and how they function. 

Additionally, I don't find this blog to be manipulative. It's a place for people with a working understanding of one another to speak and discuss and be able to be open about nature and motives; and for non-sociopaths to maybe come and learn something. 

This is an old post and I'm no brilliant speaker. But I like to throw my opinion out there sometimes.


As a side note, as much as I have opposed the unadulterated Aspie promotion and villifying of sociopaths that frequently happens, I also frequently fall prey to aspie love. I find them to be frequently charming. Their insights are often priceless and although they are not generally known for having a good sense of humor, they are often hilarious. For what it's worth, I do feel a kinship with them and find them to be a welcome respite from the fake world in which we are both forced to pretend.


  1. I just read the report on Adam Lanza that was released the other day.
    It said that Lanza's mother over ruled all the psychatric reccomendations
    regarding medication, and other reccomendations as well. She assisted in the
    creation of the climate where the mass murder took place. Too bad that he
    didn't stop after he put a bullet in his mother's head. Now, back to what happens
    after death:
    After Christ's millimum rule is over, the non Christian will be raised up. They
    will be judged according to the ethecial code they were reared in. The Golden
    Rule is universal. It exists in every culture. If someone has lived their life
    according to the Golden rule they get credit. Also, God subscribes to the idea,
    "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Intellectual "knowing" and
    spiritual knowing are two different things. Adam Lanza again. Therefore only a
    few people will be sent to hell. Hell is actually "The Second Death." People sent
    to hell are NOT there for all eternity. Hell is a flaming pit. They are there only as
    long as it takes to burn up. Sometime later, the death state will be eliminated,
    and even they will be brought back. Christ's sacrafice will result in eternal life
    for all.

  2. I feel that we are just really bad at been HUMAN! with all its nuances, diversity and similarities. We keep creating labels (psychopaths, empaths, aspies, etc), categories (religions, political parties, etc) that works well on separating us HUMAN more and more. In the end we all want a sense of connection, love and a VOICE..... I truly believe we can only stand on it from a place of authenticity. We just need to become better at being who we truly are, be it whatever you are, just be you.... be you within everything that is also not you!


    1. Hi Mia,

      If I step back and look at "humans," I would have to say that we are doing fine at being "human." The problem is that "humans" are not a simple, monolithic bunch and some individuals are toxic to other individuals.

      Take blood as a metaphor. Our bodies, as an organism, need it. We can't live without it. It's so central to our existence that it's prominent in art across cultures with similar meanings. However, when blood goes where it's not supposed to (i.e. an injury that causes internal bleeding) the various components of blood will kill off the cells it comes in contact with. Now, that all important life giving fluid is killing the very cells it was feeding.

      Context is so important.

    2. "The problem is that "humans" are not a simple, monolithic bunch and some individuals are toxic to other individuals."

      that sums it up from my pov.

    3. HLHaller bloody hell truth....

      "The problem is that "humans" are not a simple, monolithic bunch and some individuals are toxic to other individuals."

      >>>>>>>> I would say there is also a self-destructive Bitch bellow the skin I wear! so i would also say, just as the blood, we can be toxic to ourselves too. Sometimes that scares me. Strangely I meet my Power there....


    4. "Strangely I meet my Power there.... "

      Maybe we understand each other better than you think.

    5. according to Zen Buddhism, there is where the love lies... in "understanding"

      gotta say! i agree


    6. my understanding of psychology is that self-destruction and outward aggression/exploitativeness come from the same place in the human mind. I don't know if I believe this or not btw.

      as well some psychologists hold the belief that BPD and AsPD are two manifestations of the same illness -- in BPD the aggression tends to focus inward whereas in AsPD is it outward.

      I mean cutting for some with BPD is a way to regain control and power in their own life.

    7. "in BPD the aggression tends to focus inward whereas in AsPD is it outward." I dunno, I'll have to think about that one. I've long said that one of the main differences between low functioning borderlines and high-functioning borderlines is in low, the aggression seems aimed inward towards the self because they often self-harm, and in high the aggression is aimed outwards.

    8. "I mean cutting for some with BPD is a way to regain control and power in their own life." I'm not sure that quite accurately depicts it. What happens is the dysphoria is so intense, and the psychological pain is so intense that the only way to ameliorate the suffering is to inflict physical harm.

    9. I buy it - for me anyway. If I'm angry with myself, I can be hard on myself to the point where I worry those around me.

      But when I'm angry with others...

      One of my oldest friends (we go back to jr. high) said this to me recently: "when you're pissed, everyone gets to feel it - you radiate it to make sure everyone around you is as miserable as you are." He's right.

      I've never been a cutter - I am a picker, however.

    10. Dr. Ginger, you may be entirely correct... I have read some accounts elsewhere even I think on Haven's blog ?? that cutting for some individuals is about regaining control as well as what you write.

      I was more after the general question... it seems to me that outward aggression/exploitativeness in AsPD is about power and control?? or is it also to relieve suffering at least in part??

      and is inward aggression no more than a mirror image of outward?

    11. DoctorSciFi i can not talk from the theories out there. From my experience my self-destructive drive actually helped me to release control. I found some true power there... a merging a freedom, completely fearless. For me it is not a disease or something bad. It is in my nature. It is FUCK THIS SHIT!

      However as HlHaler mentioned Context is so important >>>>> hell it is! I have had a 360 round/change in the circumstances I am in now. Love is around but the self-destructive impulses is pulsing........... BANG


    12. I thought the difference between high functioning and low functioning hinged on the ability to modify behavior. In the end, each PD is about some type of inflexible maladaptive behavior. It is hard to see how high functioning wouldn't imply adaptivity.

    13. "I thought the difference between high functioning and low functioning hinged on the ability to modify behavior" No. It seems like the people who have commented on this site who are sociopaths have a different idea of what is high functioning and low functioning for sociopaths. For BPD it's different.

    14. as well, someone who is low functioning, directs aggression outward and might in some categorical system get described as BPD in fact will get an AsPD diagnosis due to the propensity for ending up in trouble with the criminal justice system. Many of the 'symptoms' of AsPD are just medical labels for criminal acts and consequences.

    15. "For BPD it's different". Dr. G, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. The definition of a PD is: "a deeply ingrained and maladaptive pattern of behavior of a specified kind, typically manifest by the time one reaches adolescence and causing long-term difficulties in personal relationships or in functioning in society."

      so how can high functioning and low functioning not be related to the ability to modify maladaptive behavior? I am not getting your point.

    16. "Many of the 'symptoms' of AsPD are just medical labels for criminal acts and consequences." True. Regardless, psychologists have mostly done away with the label "sociopath", and only use ASPD to describe this personality type. So if M.E. walked in to a psychologist's office, they would say she has ASPD even though (as far as we know) she doesn't engage in criminal activity.

    17. "so how can high functioning and low functioning not be related to the ability to modify maladaptive behavior" Honestly, I don't see what one has to do with the other when it comes to bpd. High functioning bpd's usually don't self harm, and can maintain a bit more control disguising symptoms in public than their lower functioning counter parts. They are rarely hospitalized whereas the lower functioning bpd's might end up in the hospital for substance abuse, eating disorders, suicide, etc. People with bpd have to develop flexibility in their way of thinking and perceiving, and helps them to have more resilience, and be less sensitive to events in their lives. If you reduce the psychological pain, you reduce the compulsion to self harm, or engage in some of the other behaviors. With high functioning bpd’s it can take them just as much time to begin thinking and perceiving differently, and changing their behavior.

    18. Thank you for replying Dr. G. I see your pov clearer now. I was drawing inference on more maladaptive means more disordered and therefore less well functioning (I am not sure if my pov was making sense to you though)... and my understanding is that low functioning can become high functioning, together with what I have read that by middle age most people with BPD do not qualify for a diagnosis anymore. I get your last sentence now.

    19. "together with what I have read that by middle age most people with BPD do not qualify for a diagnosis anymore" heh yea I dunno about all that. For some that's true of course, but when I was at the EPA a few years ago in Manhattan, there was a psychologist there selling a book about ageism and personality disorders. It's unfortunate, but there is a lot of ageism in the mental health field when it comes to PD's. If someone over 50 gets a bpd diagnosis, the assumption on the part of the therapist is that there is nothing you can do about it, and they don't invest much time in really trying to help the person.

    20. I'm convinced my father is bpd/bipolar 2 and of course ptsd after he was beaten up by three people left for dead. He's 74. There is no way he's changing. Niltch. He is the most triggered - nicest- would stand up for you - double life - loves his women - guy I know. I'm glad we put him in a transitional home where he is being watched and cared for. He still has plenty of independence. But he suffers from deep chronic pain because of conditions now and a stroke this year and vision is deterioration due to the mother fuckers who beat him up in the head. Rushed to Ottawa for surgery. If only he knew about his conditions earlier in life. How his brain was operating for that stimulation he could've avoided lots of sabotaging behaviors. I always thought my dad was so smart for his own good. ... like my grandfather who eventually committed suicide at age 73. I'm convinced that's it's genetics too which I learnt from you doc. You don't know yr cycles, it can be a very cruel road ahead of you without self care. But if they would have known how there brain wiring works.... I'm sure things might have been different. I love them both dearly. Smart mother fuckers , but the bpd/bipolar takes its toll if you don't know what yr dealing with. If you are even ignorant of thinking nothing wrong.

    21. Hi Superchick, Your post interests me. We share a certain amount of history. I think I may have a family member suffering from BP and she's on the edge: She never stops talking about how great she is, can't stand being alone, sharp temper and bullies others to give her centre-stage. and boy can she turn into a dragon if you disagree with her. Her grandma and grandpa both suicided and it seems like she never go over that, either. Anyway, do you have any suggestions on how to firmly but gently deal with this person? To be frank, she's kinda driving me nuts; still want her in my life, however. I just don't know to talk with her anymore. It's like she wants to talk constantly and I'm only there to listen and give praise, no matter what. I feel like a captive audience; sometimes I wind up screaming for her leave. Not pretty.


  3. Let's be honest here, we need a fake world to operate in. If everyone practiced radical honesty, the whole thing would collapse and fall apart. I've never been forthcoming about my violent thoughts except with one psychologist who became terrified of me, and on this site. I'm a strange paradox though because I can also be a sensitive person. I noticed doc sci fi stopped responding to my comments once I said I could kill people, and have little remorse. Fortunately HL isn't afraid of me because he probably gets it :)

    1. Hi Doc G.

      To say I "get it" is an understatement - I relate balls to bone.

      I was waxing poetic above, but - if I was being "truly authentic" (at least how I understand it) I would be more of a menace to society than I already am. My run would have ended long ago - it almost did on several occasions...

    2. Dr G, I havent' written much because I had not much to say in about the topics not because you said you could kill people and have little remorse. :)

    3. Dr Ginger when you say.... "let's be honest here".... yes somewhere somehow we gotta be honest!

      I probably would kill some people. Actually i might would take more pleasure torturing them if there were no consequences to it. I have a list of a few people which I entertain myself planning my "sweet unexpected" revenge.... If I have the right opportunity to hurt them. I may do not miss it.

      I may live in a "need to be fake world".... I am just willing to be more honest to myself at last!


    4. We know yr list. Jeffrey Dahmer style. That's where you need help. You can fool others , but not the others who had the utmost pleasure of playing with you.

    5. Listen doc, it's okay. I get yr play. Just leave it as play only and don't desire murder on people. ;) If you get the thoughts, fine, I guess. It's just different, but I hope it's not an obsessional thoughts that persists for months or years. If it's every now and then thoughts, that's normal. It is my hope that you don't actually play hard revenge and wish it on people. It can be a dangerous slope. How do you expect some others to react? I like you, I do. But I stop at the play , I have NO desire to hurt people and watch them suffer with torture. I am neither better, nor lesser than the rest here. You are the same as all of us here. I don't judge you. But ya who wouldn't be a tad bit upset knowing that they could be tortured. So keep playing and discussing k. Your a very smart cookie. And many like you here. Good day. :-) :-)

    6. Dr Ginger I also believe that by allowing yourself to feel this feeling of revenge, does not mean you are going to kill someone.

      Maybe it is actually a healthy way to move away from the powerless state underneath the rage. Great you are exploring it.

    7. Good. That's what I'm relieved to hear doc. Don't actually kill someone. If you feel such a powerless state underneath the rage, then I suggest you talk to a health professional. Many actually do that here.

    8. Dr. Ginger, I'm so glad you feel able to express your dark thoughts on this site. I don't think you're alone, I think in your in the majority. Most people are so wrapped up in the image they've created for themselves that they lose touch with their own inner reality. You are a wise person and I'm very glad to read your posts, even the murderous ones. Please don't leave sociopathworld! and please don't let others get you down. I for one am learning a lot from you.


  4. «Aspies have empathy. It's just bit restricted. A) We often fail to realize when we need to be sensitive.» - I think this can be related to the fact that cognitive empathy deficits can influence our emotional reactions in certain situations because when we lack cognitive empathy, we don't really understand what others are going through and don't/can't take their perspective, so our emotional reaction can be inadequate ( or even absent). This explains (or at least may help us understand) the fact that aspies are viewed as callous and less emotional.

    1. I get this -

      I've long used phrases like "I can't imagine what that must be like; I have no idea what to say," as honest responses to situations where a specific emotional reaction is expected but I'm not sure what it is and I don't want to "upset the mojo." People usually accept this -

      But, what's really going on inside is not unlike hearing a conversation between bilingual speakers slipping between two languages. I sort of get what is going on, but I have to look for more clues to understand it and sometimes it makes no sense at all.

    2. "But, what's really going on inside is not unlike hearing a conversation between two bilingual speakers slipping between two languages. I sort of get what's going on, but I have to look for more clues to understand it and sometimes it makes no sense at all."
      I wondered for a moment here if you were reading my mind. This is such a constant thing with me, this fuzzy little dialogue, and the "they want me to get it, but I don't... So how can I pretend to get it, when I don't know what it is I'm supposed to get?". Sometimes I can guess at it, and sometimes I just have to say " no, I'm sorry, but I really can't relate to that.". There have been times I've honestly just pestered people (the ones I knew would forgive me) for an explanation of how a certain emotion felt, and why, because I really had no idea. Even if I can't relate, I want to understand, especially if it can further my friendship with a person. Sometimes, though, that's really just difficult.

      I suppose my point here is to say that yes, for once, I get it.


  5. So in reading and re-reading M.E.'s post, the line, "it is perfectly possible for someone to be both an Aspie and a sociopath" is interesting to me.

    As I've demonstrated pretty clearly, I am a big-old-nerd. I can also be a white hot, unapologetic, son of a bitch when it suites me. So I won't belabor the empathy/conscience angle unless someone wants to go there -

    I've long had a deep love of math (I do Navier-Stokes problems for rainy day fun...). I am compulsive about looking for patterns. I have some very real tactile sensitivities (finding me wearing anything other than natural fibers is very rare and is usually because work demands it). I am clumsy - what athletic skill I have are hard earned. And, of course, "mentalization" as a primary social navigation tool.

    Those are the more prominent features of my personality that skew "Aspie." There are many others, but those some of the bigger ones.

    Again, I believe that this speaks to the weakness of the present classification system, as much as anything.

    I think Darien sounds like an interesting person -

    1. I think your account is interesting, and I’ve been struggling with this recently because I’m definitely a scienscey science nerd, but I have BPD, and people tend to have this idea about what a borderline is, and it definitely doesn’t fit the stereotypical image of a scientist. It really makes us quite paradoxical figures. Maybe we’re mad scientists? : )

    2. I consider myself to be a mad scientist too, though not connected to BPD. There's power in that mode... agency in figuring out new things, it's not power in the sense of aggression, nor the notion as predominated science since Bacon to subdue and control nature...

    3. Up until I read M.E.'s book and started coming to this forum, I saw myself as an "alpha male" that was low on the autism spectrum. It never felt altogether right, but I knew from experience, that I relate to Aspies/Auties better than a lot of people. (Ali G's Cousin would have loved me).

      I used to fall back on an idea from Temple Grandin that autism is a spectrum. I just figured that I was low on that spectrum and I had a crappy childhood where I didn't really learn how to behave.

      Finding out that it's deeper than that, well...I guess I'm on the bonus plan...

      When I was an undergrad, I went to a "top" school for my field. For a number of reasons, I fell in with mostly grad students as friends. At that time, I saw all manner of extreme personalities hanging out in labs - including one gal that, in hind sight, was textbook BPD.

      The kernel of my view that being an extreme personality wasn't a bad thing (or a good thing, really) but what you decided to do with it that mattered.

      By the by, I have also been referred to as "Rain Man," among other things at work because I often do arithmetic quickly in my head.

    4. I agree that an extreme personality is a good thing. I have been diagnosed with BPD, but my recent experience with a sociopath inspired me to question who I truly am.
      I wear 2 is made of steel, armour that shields me from everyone, emotionless and remorseless.
      The other mask is made of silk, the mask of a seductress who manipulates others by feigning affection and thriving in self-pity.
      Either way, I appreciate your words and believe that whatever my "label" is once you are aware of who you are, you can accept yourself, and this is true enlightenment.

    5. HI FP,

      The way I see it, it's like any other characteristic - it's about what you do with it.

      One of my "talents," that I think is a element of my personality type (I see the classification system as a joke, but this is the shorthand we, I'm a "borderline" personality) is the ability to function effectively for long periods of time under adverse conditions. I could have gone the way of many of my peers and worked on having a career. For me, that would be a waste. I like action - so I take jobs with start ups and doing contract consulting - long hours; high stress; etc. . My friends have long "known" I was nuts - this just helps to explain it.

      As for masks, I'm still not sure I'm all in on that perspective, I've tried describing how I see our presentations to the world as being similar to a geometric solid that we can only see one side of at a time. DocSF seemed to get it.

      Another take might be like a fan dancer - there is this constant movement and the whiff of something intimate, but always being careful to keep the important parts hidden - but making sure the folks think they are seeing it or are about to see it.

      Accepting yourself is the start of enlightenment - it's only then that you get to see your true nature. 8)~

    6. Former Plaything,

      "I wear 2 is made of steel, armour that shields me from everyone, emotionless and remorseless.
      The other mask is made of silk, the mask of a seductress who manipulates others by feigning affection and thriving in self-pity."

      So one mask is cold and emotionless, while the other is the mask of a seductress who feigns affection. Do you also become promiscuous or feel the drive to become promiscuous when being the seductress/feigning affection, since, from a psychological viewpoint, that usually has roots in something you might not be aware of (unresolved issues from the past having to do with abuse, or certain situations that have impacted you in very negative ways).

      What do you mean by this (can you expand on it), and what is behind the mask that you wear when feigning affection? When you say masks, do you mean personalities, as in alters? Are you aware of what's happening?

    7. Eric James Smith

  6. Maybe Sherlock Holmes is an aspie - he's sometimes clueless about social interaction.

    1. I think it depends on who's writing - I haven't seen the most recent series, but some characters look more sociopathic (e.g. Cracker, House) and other look more Aspie (e.g. Goren from Law and Order Criminal Intent).

    2. That's basically how they're trying to portray him. But they aren't restricted to real science. It's fiction and they're inaccurate.

    3. Oh sure - there aren't a whole lot of "good" portrayals out there. The one that comes to mind is "Manhunter" - the original by Michael Mann. The Will Graham character played by William Peterson is very nicely done. The other one that comes to mind that impressed me is The Hurt Locker. I've heard good things about We Need to Talk About Kevin and The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, but I haven't seen either of those.

      For the most part, it's crap, but once in a while, they do float a gem -

  7. I can impersonate and recite the alphabet with my little labia lips. O someone please label me. What would this make me? She'd label me a whore-a-empath-ocio-path. You hurt my lips.

    1. She wants to destroy my lips. :'( while eating cookies and enjoying the show.

    2. Label you? Easy. You're a run of the mill attention seeking idiot. Yaaawwwnn.

    3. Aww, you were being such a nice doc too for like 30 seconds. Pats on back. Now now..... deflection mode alter switch that you have on going here. Seriously, attention seeking? .... points fingers at u. You create at least 40 characters so you can get lots of psycho babble attention back &forth on here. But I really don't care, I actually like it and welcome it because you keep the site going. I give u credit doc. . ;)
      Don't hide and seek now. We all need you.

    4. I was actually expecting that response from you. You project out what you need too. It's okay, a little attention is good to get as long as it's also given to others. It's a basic need of everybody 's ( if we were honest with ourselves). And ya I was in play mode with the labias only. :)


    6. ^ haha yr still my favourite ginger cookie. Even if it seems little tense at times. Be well. ;) be well my cootchie.

    7. Oh Lord above!
      You really just can't believe that I am not your doc, can't you?
      She's not the only one who likes messing with that pretty, crazy little head of yours.

    8. Lol, o it's her, just characters and alters. Haha, good day lovely, busy day, remember I don't laugh at you for posting goofy stuff, it is my hope to get the same in return. ;)

    9. Former play thing. Swaeets, play away... Were so lucky to have borderline community on sociopath world. ME,s gunna get a real treat to the craziness, in a good , laugh out loud way, I hope. :)

  8. Hi Mia,

    "I would say there is also a self-destructive Bitch bellow the skin I wear!"

    I've given this "advice" countless times: self destruction is not the answer; focus destruction on the assholes that deserve it. For you, make it all about "self construction." To me that makes more sense...


    1. But wouldn't that promote being destructive and rationalizing that they are assholes who deserved it later?

    2. I don't have a problem with destruction - to me it is as natural as...well, entropy.

      In Mia's case (and others who I've run into that have expressed an urge to harm themselves), I simply suggest that she would be better off focusing that energy at the proper source of the antagonism rather than herself.

      To me, that makes more sense than joining in on a beatdown of one's self.

      I would also suggest that being clear that the asshole "deserve it" before acting. We can debate the temporal aspects of free will, but...

      At least that way any "rationalization" is before the act at least - start with impulse control... *smirk*

    3. "But wouldn't that promote being destructive and rationalizing that they are assholes who deserved it later?" You say that like you have a point...

    4. I'm just playing. No beating me up. Remember I'm here to let the evil out. I'm here to exercise(exorcise) the demon. Ok, you know what? I'm not doing anything productive here. I'm gonna go start my own site to let the evil out, and then I can go back in to society and pretend that everything is ok.

    5. HL, I understand what you are trying to say but I have to disagree here.
      Rationalising, be it before or after the fact, is a slippery slope. It's not about free will.
      It is about people's willingness to delude themselves, deny any wrong doing and continue burning others and hurting themselves in the process.

      Just like many of those women who were hurt, so they rationalise that every man is a lying, cheating piece of shit who will only break their heart anyway, so deserve to be treated like scum.
      These women might appear strong, but they are not. They are the perpetual victims and their own worst enemies who spread misery to anything they touch.

      Lashing out and hurting those "who deserve it" instead of being hard on herself will not help her one bit.

      She needs to figure out why she keeps making the choices that lead to her getting hurt. She needs to address those underlying issues and she needs to grow as a person and learn to make better choices.
      That is the only way she will truly stop being a victim and turning ever more bitter and miserable.

    6. Hi Anon,

      You make some valid points - you should pick handle or post with your own. For what it's worth, I'm open to being called out and debated - I find that refreshing and enjoyable (even when the perspective of the other person prevails) when done in a respectful manner as you've done.

      I "hear" what your saying about rationalization and that is why I put it in quotes and ended it with a "smirk." Rationalization as a rule is usually a way of bullshitting our selves into doing something contrary to our expressed values (as opposed to our real values...).

      The main point I was trying to make to Mia is that she ought not waste time on self destruction. I don't have a problem with the destruction of others, so long as they "deserve it."

      I will qualify here that "destruction" really isn't in the absolute sense, but more in the "give them a good swift kick in the nuts" if they are being antagonistic. Just make sure that they really are being antagonistic and it's not some other issue.

    7. I'm GE.

      That's just it though, HL.
      I'm pretty sure we agree on the fact that as long as she is being harsh with herself, she will not be able to move forward. And for that matter, she will continue to attract the personality disordered who will pick up on it and use it against her.

      We tend to attract partners who treat us the way we deep down think we deserve.

      My point is that there is a big difference between advising someone to figure out why she is drawn to toxic relationships, develop better communication skills, work at drawing firm boundaries and not tolerating abuse of any kind...and advocating destruction of "those who deserve it".

      Trying to tell her to destroy, but make sure she follows the "Code of Harry", seems like a recipe for helping her become one of those bitter, closed off bitches who treat men like dirt, then say they were assholes who deserved it...

    8. Hi GE,

      Thanks for the name - it's a whole lot more interesting for me to converse this way. 8)~

      In the long run, you are 100% correct. Figure out how to stop putting yourself in situations that aren't of your "liking." (i.e. stop being self destructive).

      I think where we are a little crossed up is that I am talking about the "heat of the moment." When you are actively engaged with someone being antagonistic, I don't see helping them be as a great way to spend my day.

      I see "victim" types do this from time to time - It's like they don't know that they can fight back - and I believe firmly that it is OK to fight back.

      It's not OK to kick someone else's ass to make yourself feel better. That is spreading misery.

      Also, there is a RAGE that I understand. That rage, when triggered, often must be discharged. Every rage is different and every rage is the same. What makes them different is the "what" and context. What makes them the same is how destructive I am when in the throes of one. Finding ways to discharge that rage is a moving target -

      Avoiding that situation is best, but, if I find myself in one then I really try to focus the energy on an "appropriate" target (preferably not myself).

      Does this make a bit more sense?

      LOL! I had forgotten about the "Code of Harry" - was that you? That was funny. Actually, I found my 12 Steps of Assholes Anonymous - I think I'm being consistent. What do you think?

      By the by, my handle is actually taken from Herman Hesse's Steppenwolf. Faust and I had a nice riff on that a while back.

    9. HLHailer...... THANK you for this:
      I've given this "advice" countless times: self destruction is not the answer; focus destruction on the assholes that deserve it. For you, make it all about "self construction." To me that makes more sense...

      Comom sense makes sooooo much sense. Yes! That what i have been looking all around. Got it! straight to the point.... remedy!

      Anon said something that is truth "She needs to figure out why she keeps making the choices that lead to her getting hurt. She needs to address those underlying issues and she needs to grow as a person and learn to make better choices"

      Yes I believe we are in this life to play different roles and take responsibility for every choice we make (even if it was a very conscious choice). I was victim yes. I take full responsibility for my recovery and go in the direction of making better choices, getting to know what I need. However this does not whatsoever remove the damage and the responsibility of what some people have intentionally caused.... when I look back and see the whole "show", I can not help, but feel some profound disgust from the pleasure some people get, from hurting others to gain their sense of power. I am trying to understand it, what is a great step. Understanding relief my desire to revenge.....

      Oh well! a work in progress. I guess!


    10. Hi Mia,

      I hope it helps - and I do hope that you do not become a bitter, lonely person as Anon/GE has expressed concern about. That would not be a good outcome.

      Remember the old Russian proverb: revenge is a dish best served cold; GE might add, rightly, try not to serve it at all.

      Yes, we are all a work in progress - I've always like that notion.

    11. New proverb: Revenge is best implemented brutally and effectively. Ok, now, like anon was saying on the other thread, back to talking about unicorns and rainbows.

    12. From my experience, the highest degree of brutality and effectiveness happens when it's done dispassionately. I don't go there much these days, but ah, the memories... *grin*

    13. Hi Harry, You said, "if I find myself in one then I really try to focus the energy on an "appropriate" target (preferably not myself).

      How do you chose the right target? Just curious.

      I don't exactly consult the stars while picking mine: I find the rottenest person I know who's also a player and then I'll find a way to make them understand. It may be something do with the law. It may have something to do with their pride. I don't seek punish so much as to teach them a lesson they won't forget. It works most of the time and I've stopped more than few idiots from trampling on me and others. Seems most people can't stand having their lies exposed. Unless you're a politician or a banker of course.

      Off to the magic theater. Hope you're doing well, Harry.


    14. Hi Faust,

      Nice to see you back! I hope the visit with the family was pleasent.

      Usually that rage gets triggered by a specific event and person. One of the nice things about getting older (I have to look hard sometimes to find them...*wink*) is that I have learned to slow down my impulsive behavior. In doing so, I take more time to figure out what is really going on with me - I give the "big feelings" a context before acting.

      At that point, if there's a asshole that needs and/or deserves a little special attention, I go to work. By then, I've usually cooled off enough to be more deliberate in how I go about discharging that energy. I like how you put it: "I don't seek punish so much as to teach them a lesson they won't forget."

      However, if that rage isn't discharged, it does fester and grow and eventually becomes very toxic. I've long said, when you bury feelings, you bury them alive and they will come back to haunt you.

      Happy Thankstaking!!!

  9. Dr. Ginger, What do you hope to accomplish on your website? My demon recently appeared after hiding herself for years. I embrace her completely and have spent the past few months delighting in her presence. She is no longer the mistress of a sociopath, she is the master of him.

    1. Well for one, I wouldn't mention that I'm a professional. Once people know that, I still feel like I have to exercise a certain amount of restraint. I probably really shouldn't have mentioned it on here. "She is no longer the mistress of a sociopath, she is the master of him." In what way?

  10. I came across a twitter account called lettheevilout :P

    1. Well hell, now you HAVE TO start a blog.

      By the by: If I worked in your field it would have to be either in academia (ethics boards keeping me in line) or working with prison populations - that sounds like fun...

      ...yeah, I'm a little...different...

    2. "or working with prison populations - that sounds like fun..." I know, right? :)

    3. and, uh, yea...let's not even get started on IRB's. I make jokes about our pesky ethics getting in the way of good one ever laughs :/

    4. Really, you don't even wanna know some of the experiments I have come up with. I thought they were normal, but it was after everyone reacting with shock and horror that I started think....maybe it was me? :/

    5. LOL! Yeah, some words get past my teeth from time to time that the looks of the people tell me maybe I should have thought twice.

      And I do understand that some stuff just doesn't need to be posted on the internet -

  11. I was watching a BTK killer interview last night, and I was wondering why these people don't buy a real doll ( to act out their fantasies.

    1. In the same way you might ask why a man intensely craving finest chocolate doesn't chew on some cardboard? Not quite the same thing, now is it?

      Buying a doll is not the same as picking, stalking and obtaining a woman.
      A real doll does not run the gamut of emotions that ellicit the pleasure they get from torturing her. The absence of real fear would be the biggest mood killer.
      It doesn't actually feel the pain.
      It is not real power of life and death, it is just a stupid doll.
      I can go on here.

      Sure, there will be some who will be tempted, mainly because they will not be risking prison by playing with the doll. But I have a feeling it would only heighten the cravings for the real thing, not satisfy them.

    2. No of course it's not the same thing, just like bangin a real doll isn't the same as fuckin a playboy model, but who wants to go to prison, and if people like that really feel like they can't control their impulses, they need some kind of outlet.

    3. Some things are worth going to prison for.
      Some of them look forward to fame and notoriety.

      And I think they can control their impulses well enough, but like to talk about how they couldn't help it in an attempt to distance themselves from their actions and possibly garner some sympathy once caught.
      After all, when did we last hear of a guy trying to rape and torture a woman in broad daylight in a crowded place? Now that guy clearly couldn't help it.

      The real doll is too much of a fake thing to be of much use to most of those guys. There is just no sport at all in it. No real pleasure.

      Throw a cat a dead mouse. Does it get excited? Or will it look at it like 95% of the fun is gone? Now, would it rather eat the mouse, or chase a living bug?

      Many of those men will turn to "lesser" pleasures, such as violent fun with cheap whores. Not quite what they are craving, but still better than a doll.

    4. Hello, I tend to side with Anon on this one. I think BTK can ONLY get it up for the real thing. All those juicy emotions are like blood to types like him. Not to mention all the other tactile stuff attached to a warm, breathing body.

      Like the monster Grendel in the story, it's hard to imagine tearing apart a doll when there's meat around.


  12. Hello Ms. Thomas. I hope you're well.

    I didn't really expect to be noticed; it's quite the pleasant surprise.

    As a semi-reply to what you've said here, I've often wondered why I know as many sociopaths as I do (and as many people I wouldn't quite classify as sociopaths, but who exhibit many of the characteristics). You mentioned a feeling of kinship, and indeed that resonates with my tentative conclusion, that being that outsiders recognize outsiders. Usually when I identive someone as a sociopath, it's by accident. Something seems different about them, little things I couldn't put my finger on but the sum of which eventually makes me go "oh, of course.". And they, for their part, are surprisingly open when I ask, or even say they hoped I'd see it. I'm not entirely sure why that is, because if miscalculated, such openness could backfire rather unpleasantly. I wonder if it's because they figure me out with methods exactly opposite of my own- the keen observance which is often characteristic of sociopathy makes it clear to them that I'm not the kind of person who is going to be scared or overly mistrustful. I think outsiders recognize outsiders, and it's a relief to be able to drop the mask, to whichever degree the relationship allows. I can discuss my less socially acceptable tendencies without fear of being outed (and indeed I sometimes volunteer such information almost prematurely, as sharing secrets and thereby inviting reciprocation can be a good way to gain someone's trust) and they can as well. I asked of one, why he wanted me to see it, and he said he enjoyed loose variables. So I think boredom plays into it as well; interacting with a sociopath (although I freely admit that I can't always keep up) is an entirely different experience from interacting with a neurotypical. And of course there's always the fact that if they spill my secrets, I have theirs as well. (Although I wouldn't, I see no usefulness in revenge for the sake of revenge.). Lastly, I've found, both from 'profiling,' as a friend of mine put it, and from being profiled, that handing someone a piece of paper that basically says "this is your personality, check yes or no" tends to elicit what I call 'trust by default,' wherein I may expedite the process of gaining someone's trust by skipping the stage where they are unsure about what is safe to tell me- there's no need for such uncertainty, because, at least to some extent, I already know.
    I've made some of my best and closest friends this way. In fact a few have gone to great lengths to assist me, even when I tried to hide my need for it. I don't delude myself that that's necessarily an expression of affection, but it's appreciated all the same.

    I suppose my point here is that the kinship is mutual. It's nice to be able to step into a world which isn't fake (or at least is less so) and where it's not so important to pretend.

    Again, it was quite a nice surprise to check in and see my comments among your recent posts. I hope I haven't made an inch into a mile. Also, please do pardon the prolific parentheses, I find I use them even more frequently than my accidental alliteration.


    As a P.S., I despise labels, but they're useful. I use them as a basic reference only, as I find it much more logical (and much more effective) to evaluate each person based on individual traits. I will rarely be found saying "oh, this person is such-and-such, so they must do such-and-such." Hopefully at some point we'll have a good enough understanding of psychology that we won't need to rely so much on boxes and tags.

  13. Dear god that's a long post. Oops.

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