Monday, November 17, 2014

No more damage

I found the logic of this old comment to be interesting, especially "Empath's aren't some poor victim who are preyed upon for no reason, they are one of the main reasons sociopaths develop into what they are.":

Firstly, the example you gave is a little extreme, considering most sociopaths don't mess someone up to the point where they are committed to a mental institution. In fact, the average sociopath does almost nothing to distinguish him or herself from the general population, in order to blend in. Unless you have a low amount of self control or deep uncontrollable desire to see others hurt in the most dramatic ways, usually the sociopath does no more damage than those overly empathic people who jump from high to lows, fighting with their spouse regularly and creating a chaotic household. The only main difference is the sociopath adds a more elegant touch, creating the same amount of drama without people often realizing something is happening 

I do agree that rape does have a high emotional impact, and perhaps that was not the best example for me to use. But most emotional pain easily heals over physical pain, when we look at the average individual. Now don't get me wrong some people take emotional pain more severe than others, but when does responsibility fall on the victim? Eventually the victim needs to overcome their emotional pain, otherwise they become what? a drain on society? someone who can't work or uses up government resources because they couldn't handle a breakup? I'm not saying their emotions should not be taken into account, but there should be a limit on how much emotion is too much emotion, and when someone is simply letting themselves be the victim. 

"The only reason, I guess, that you don't acknowledge the permanence of emotional damage is because you haven't looked back at your victims." 
Not true, I've looked back on my "victims" but I don't see them as victims, they were companions that provided me with the stimulation I required at the time, did I possibly do things that upset them? Yes, did I lie and manipulate them so they would like me more, who doesn't lol. But if you look at the overall picture they always received more positive than negative during the relationship, and if they can't handle themselves after the relationship was terminated, that is not my problem, I did my part when it was expected of me. 

Lastly, " Just because people are naturally emotionally vulnerable, why does that give you the right to violate them, emotionally or physically?"

The same reason why it's right that we sacrifice animals for food, survival. Empaths might view sociopaths as pure evil but sociopaths are just people trying to survive (for the most part, some are just fucked up like regular people). If a sociopath doesn't learn to lie and manipulate from a young age they are instead isolated from society, people call them names, tell them they are messed up, pump them full of drugs. Empath's aren't some poor victim who are preyed upon for no reason, they are one of the main reasons sociopaths develop into what they are. Things like lying and manipulation are necessary to live a somewhat normal life, it's only natural that if you start at a young age, by adulthood you are pretty good at it. Besides I'm sure you remember being a child, if you did anything weird it negatively effected your entire childhood, now imagine telling friends, parents, or teachers the thoughts of a five year old sociopath, good luck living a decent life after that. All I'm saying is from a young age (for a sociopath) it is survival of the fittest, and that's a game that he or she won't lose.

I know a lot of people will take issue with whether emotional wounds heal easier than physical. As far as generalizations go, most are wrong and this one seems particularly suspect. But I do think it brings up an interesting issue. A lot of people ask me whether labeling people sociopaths makes them act out more because now they have a justification or an excuse for their bad behavior. But I think you could say similar things about "victims". Some people seek after the victim label, or if not quite that, they make the utmost of it once they feel they have it. I've been reading Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" in which he advocates that people find meaning and purpose in their unavoidable suffering, quoting Nietzsche for what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. He also says that suffering is like a gas -- it expands to fill up whatever container it happens to be in. So even a little suffering can seem unbearable to some in the right circumstances. I understand all of that.

But I also know that the way we think of an experience puts a distinct spin on it. For instance, I have a friend who injured one of his joints in a work related accident a couple of years ago. He complains about the pain all of the time. I have another friend who similarly injured his joints several years ago engaging in athletics. He only sometimes mentions it. It could be that the injury and pain level are vastly different between these two. But I can't help wondering whether the distinction is more that one of them feels like a victim, always acted upon instead of acting, while the other considers his injury almost a badge of honor -- that he is active and athletic enough to have these sorts of injuries.

Is it possible that victims of sociopaths could redirect their thinking to consider their injuries a badge of honor? That only people who take risks in life and trust and love to the extent that they do would even sustain such an injury? See also "The Agency Moment". 


  1. On a related note, do you have what I personally call a phantom ache?

  2. Interesting, but I don't see it working. I've done some pretty nasty stuff, and I don't see going back and telling people that they should wear it like a badge of honor working well. Unfortunately, abuse is abuse no matter who inflicts it, and should avoid engaging in it if for no other reason than to recognize how it can adversely effect one's self. If you destroy someone, and then need their assistance down the line, they won't help out.

    1. Agreed.

      I will add, however, that I've seen a number of people recover from traumas (physical and emotional) and claim to be stronger for the experience. I would count myself among those people. However, it's pretty unlikely that I'll be sending any of the people involved "Thank You" notes.

    2. Dr Ginger.... you right
      "Unfortunately, abuse is abuse no matter who inflicts it, and should avoid engaging in it if for no other reason than to recognize how it can adversely effect one's self. If you destroy someone, and then need their assistance down the line, they won't help out"

      My ex, stole from me, and played the hero of saving me. Plus zillions of little dirt games, i feel nauseous just to think about it. Anyway, I had to flee to protect myself from him. He is "big" "media" business men and is been investigated from Tax evasion. I have been invited to explain about our joint expenses. His accountant suggested me to tell a particular history that could actually save his ass off. But I said all the truth I knew. It was not a revenge at all. I just could not protect someone that abused me, and is willing to abuse by any chance. Why would I protect him from experiencing the consequence of his actions?! He says "I was the only person whom he really trusted" "I knew all about him".... so if he can betray and abuse the "only person he ever trusted", can you imagine the damage he does to others?! I honestly just want one thing from him = "absolutely nothing" .
      I came to this website to try to understand more about this "sociopath" perspective in life. I want to be able to understand well enough, to release the hurt, pain I am carrying.
      Abuse is the easiest thing one can do to another, it is a choice, and the consequences shall meet you round the corner. That is Nature Law.


    3. Take one step back, you will recover. It will take time. You are lucky to recognize him as a sociopath. He is ill, his personalty-traits are notorious, it is not personal indeed. It is not your fault. You cant know what sociopathy is until you work with a socio for a longer time or until you are emotionally involved with one. Take you time to understand (i appreciated the view of the psychologist commenting on lovefraud)
      Move on with your goals. Stay with warmhearted people! Avoid people with personality disorders for as long as you need.
      The threat you may feel will disappear. You wont have to be on guard anymore. You will have another awareness and a slightly changed worldview.

      Can you accuse socios of beeing socios? No. Of beeing a fake? No. Of finding joy defeating others? No. Of not outing themselves? Maybe. Of disrispecting and taking advantage from other people? For sure. For acting out their impulses? Yes.

    4. Anon@0204, you are so right.
      Mia, stay with warm hearted people. I am personally surrounded by them, and I think that is the only way I can handle my sociofriend.
      And I am older, stronger, and luckier than you with regards to my upbringing.
      You sound very strong. Stay away as much as you can from people who you know will hurt you.

  3. M.E. if someone rejects you, dont get your white rage, but consider it an honour, you have "won" enough to be rejected?

    1. badge of honour, patronizing at best, trivializing and demeaning what the notion of honour is for me, anyhow. Like how many socios concern themselves with honour and what does it mean?

  4. What M.E. has done to hurt "sucker" empaths is O.K. because she is pretty,
    That (along with her intellect) is her ONLY "saving grace.) An attractive person
    (Who prataces hygiene) can be forgiven ANYTHING.
    I don't mean that they can be forgiven everything by EVERYONE, but they can
    find enough support to materially survive.
    For example, celebrated criminals can find "groupies" and attract interest.
    They can get sex and monetary gifts. Their "fans" don't really know them, so
    they can't be in love WITH them, just their idea ABOUT them. Kind of like a
    good looking presidental candatie. Image is EVERYTHING. The Halo effect.
    How about those two great looking bi-racial male criminals who took the net by
    storm and are slated to make millions? People's need for attractiveness will
    trump their common sense.
    M.E. has (MOST) everything she needs: An attractive appearence. Money.
    Charm. Survival skills. Adaptablity. Ability to con because of those trait's.
    She could probably "get" 65% of the population of both male and female IF she
    wanted. Could she get authentic "love"? Does she have a grasp of what
    authentic love is?
    As for the ugly one's only a SMALL amount of them are worthy to keep around.
    Superior intellects and artists. The rest should be gently encouraged to commit

    1. "The rest should be gently encouraged to commit
      suicide." Based on your philosophy on life, why are you still around then? You have described yourself as being pretty atrocious looking. I never understand how misogynists like you who hate women, and are butt ass ugly with no money, are shallow?

    2. and I know, you're going to give me the spiel about how you only like the pretty ladies because of your "glands", we've been down this road before. Well guess what, my biology tells me to only like the really hot, wealthy Chippendale dancer gotta go!

    3. Damn. I won't even pretend like I didn't laugh at that last line from anon 3:34, but that's because I love anything that's crass and/or politically incorrect.

      There's a lot of truth to what you said, though. I won't touch on that last line other than the mention of the humor I found in it, but most of the rest is the inconvenient truth.

      "It's only sexual harassment if he's ugly."

      Dr. G: I'm guessing this is a notorious anon? His glands? Lol!


    4. Anon "The rest should be gently encouraged to commit

      I got laugh at this hahahah this is ridiculously truth. This is the favourite game of the so called GOD power right?! how powerful is that?!

      "look look dying because I want you so".... delicious for you yes?!

      even better is to be stronger healthier and more sexier then ever! how does that sound?!


    5. I won't insult your intelligence or your looks, because obviously I don't know you. However, you sound so narcissistic it's not even funny (except in the beginning). You seem so pathetic though. In what marshmallow world do you think people are going to allow you to kill off most of the population? You speak in rhetoric about a purely hypothetical situation that you have no power to execute. Daydreaming Loser. Let me finish by adding: Yes, quite a few of the things you mention are true. Nonetheless, "they can be forgiven ANYTHING" - yeah so no attractive person has ever been sentenced to death row? Gah, the last sentence pissed me off.

  5. A little while ago, Dr SciFi asked if I knew why I was getting flac about my relationship with my sociopath friend.

    I believe that the people who are reacting strongly against what I sometimes say are by and large people who have personally been victimized or who have had loved ones targeted by a sociopath. Those people probably see me as a traitor. My aim is definitely not to belittle their pain, I know how excruciating the pain can be, but it upsets them that I can continue being friendly with somebody who willingly and successfully hurt me in the past. They try to find what is wrong with me and pathologize my behavior. But I am like everybody else, surviving and attempting to enjoy myself during my short time on earth and hopefully make my world and the world of my loved ones a little bit more enjoyable.

    Those victims are not able to understand that you can get past the hurt, get past the wounded ego and grow from the experience. All they want to do is wallow in their victimhood and get pity, help and compassion from other people who understands them. They know I am able to understand, but I am asking them to get out of their funk and rebuild their life and their confidence. This does not settle well in some cases. They want revenge. They want other people to take their side and vilify the sociopath who hurt them. All sociopaths for that matter. They cannot comprehend that the best way to get revenge is to calm their anger, view the sociopath for who he is and just accept that there is no way the sociopath can change his inner life, or feel bad about what he has done. He can change his behavior if he wants to and particularly if he is shown how changing his behavior will benefit him, but his inner life will not be modified by the people he interacts with, particularly people who try to appeal to his non existent sense of guilt. But i digress.

    HLHaler recently posted a link and in particular, there was a say by William Gibson: "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure in fact you are not surrounded by a**holes." Those people that are angered by what I say do not have the hindsight (yet) to look at what happened to them in that light. And yes, my socio friend knows he is an a**hole.

    For all the flac that I get (which is in my mind constructive to those people that have been targeted by a sociopath because it is healthy to go through a phase of anger when you have been through something so destructive), I also get answers from people who understand the next "healing" steps i describe with examples taken from my relationship with my sociofriend, and they actually thank me. One of the readers even said my words had been more helpful to him/her than the years of therapy s/he had been through.

    I am not that wise, or that old for that matter, but I went through a difficult experience stretched over several years, and i would like for people to profit from it, if that makes any sense. This is one of the reasons i have participated on this site, and also to be able to understand sociopathy better from the horse's mouth, so to speak. It has been very enlightening. I particularly enjoyed comments from tii and puppy basket this summer.

    I don't participate much right now because of lack of time. HLHaler is now my favorite read. I learn from him. Hats off to you hlhaler if you indeed live your life as you described. I would like to "teach" my sociofriend some if the behaviors you and puppy basket have described. I think they will be helpful in his life. I have to convince him that they will. Tough one. Also, I did thank him for what I have learned from him, with the caveat that he should never ever try it again on anybody else. It could definitely have ended up very ugly. He does recognize that my reaching methods are much better than his. Then again he is probably saying that to stay in my good books...

    1. OldAndWise.
      I truly appreciate your presence here. Honestly I think the rage and anger is a natural stage. WHO THE HELL WOULDN'T BE AFTER SUCH SHAKE UP IN THEIR REALITY?!
      I don't see you as betraying. I see you as a free human being, who is capable of dealing with them.
      I just CAN NOT.
      I am "gourmet" for the psychos. I am very playful, fun, sexy and very poor boundaries, plus add an aura of innocence. Deal! I can see in their eyes. OH FINALLY SOME FUN HERE! I am very VERY alert of what I am attracting in my life an working on myself. It is hard, because I was badly abused by my mom.
      Honestly I am not planning to get tougher. I just want to be able to make good choices in my life, and honestly that includes "NO INTIMACY WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT SAFE"


    2. Mia, I know what you mean about not wanting to get tougher. I do not want my feeling to go away. It would be like wanting to be blind after you saw something horrible.

      I told my sociofriend recently:
      You can't break me, I am too soft...

      Dies that make sense to you?

    3. oh yessss.... it does! it so much does....

      GREAT. tx tx tx u


    4. Hello O&W,

      Too soft to break .. . that's so well put.

      My socio friend was recently a very bad boy. He lied to me about some absurd things, reneged on a couple important promises, and played my emotions like a fiddle. The latter upsets me the most. He seems to be feeding on me in some way: He stole one of my signed poetry books but claims he lost it. I don't believe him, and it almost seems like he relishes my loss, watching me grieve. I'm not usually concerned about material things but this poetry book is like an old, very dear friend, which my socio friend knows. I wonder why he did it and thought perhaps you might have some insight. I enjoy your posts very much.


  6. My teaching methods...

  7. OldAndWise, there's something particularly disconcerting or even inconceivable about the lack of remorse. I think it rattles people. I can accept it intellectually but not emotionally if that makes sense.

    From what you write it sounds as if you believe you have influence with your socio friend. I wonder how socios view the influence or lack of it that others have with them.

  8. Dr SciFi, you make perfect sense about accepting the lack of remorse intellectually, but not emotionally. This is where my inner work took the most effort. Now I am.jn a place that I would call damage control. How do I show my sociofriend that being high functioning, or i should say higher functioning than he already is, will serve him in the long run. This is the only way I can prevent him from targeting other victims. And I am really not sure I have influence on him. But I can try to reason with him. He has already told me if I try I am going to have to make intellectual and logical sense to him. Not sure I will have the energy or the willingness to do it. Not sure he will be receptive. A work in progress.

    1. O&W, I can grasp what you mean by damage control, I mean wrt my own damage. I think also what Mia has been writing is on target and insightful -- esp about only choosing intimates who are safe for one's self -- and knowing what that means in terms of one's own vulnerabilities and strengths.

      About influence, I guess if I were in your position, it would make a difference if he reached out to me for input, or if it was instead an effort where I was trying to gently steer another party -- it has to do with the source of the influence energy -- its on him and his own initiative.

      " All they want to do is wallow in their victimhood and get pity, help and compassion from other people who understands them."

      I have a different view here. Many people end up in a mentally disordered state associated with trauma, complex PTSD is one name for it -- getting out of these relationships and moving on.

      It's a mental illness. It is not wallowing for them, they just don't have the skills and view of life to be able to recover, just like other sufferers of complex PTSD experience, for different reasons.

    2. Dr sci-fi, right about influence. I will take your advice. I will be patient and wait for my sociofriend to ask. Or not. If he asks it will be interesting. If he does not, it will be peaceful. Both are fine with me.

      And about people being unable to get out of the trauma, I get it also.

      Sometimes, though, they are on the brink of getting stronger as opposed to falling apart, and telling them they are able to get stronger may just tip the balance.

  9. Good post today me. I enjoyed how your writing flowed out so nicely. I so get what your getting at.

  10. Should we understand that Sociopaths are mostly interested with people they might really like if they were not Sociopaths? As I have seen, if they have no interest, they wouldn't play with someone more than a second.
    I guess that she means, that us (empaths), should be happy that a Sociopath is "interacting" with us...others might "love" us, Socios would "play" us...their very particular way to "love" us?

    I do have examples of friends with socio tendencies that are trying to limit their behaviour with me, because I think they like me. But of course their nature is sometimes coming it is very difficult to totally handle it (otherwise they wouldn't be socios anymore!).

  11. I was thinking a bit more about growing past and through trauma.

    It seems to me, if I examine my feelings towards people and events that were traumatic and helped shape me, I think the view I have is that I feel stronger/smarter/etc. not because of what the other person (or people) did, but rather in how I reacted to the insult.

    It’s not them that helped me to grow – I grew in spite of them. My growth isn’t the result of their actions, but rather the result of how I choose to respond to their actions. When I find that I am no longer carrying an emotional load and I’ve figured out how and why I allowed myself to end up in that situation – I have healed and I have grown. But it is from my own reflections and actions that growth comes – not because someone mistreated me.

    Based on that then, I would have to say that trying to justify actions by saying, “it’s a learning experience for them,” is likely delusional. This, of course, doesn’t apply to people who are seeking to be victimized (I’ve seen that too – different all together…).

  12. HLHaller You nailed it! I am making a note of that!

    For me power, is self-power. When I take responsibility on how to react to the cruelty I have faced, I am making the choices, and I am the one empowering myself. It is earned an well deserved strength.

    To say this "as a learning experience for them" is cheap rationalisation and very very shallow indeed.

    Trauma for me was the same as been gunshot in the heart and survived (at this point i was a victim). I had no conditions to even help myself them, I was luckily rescued. I had to completely remove myself from the "war zone" to heal my wounds. Now I am at the self-empowering state of working not just on understanding what happened, but going deep into my emotions, my habits, my thinking. It is a deep commitment with myself and what i know i deserve from life. Whatever i am creating around me, i give absolutely NO CREDIT whatsoever to anyone that took the chance to abuse me dirtily...

    Actually I give them the full DEBT of not having the privilege of my friendship. For me it is not narcissism what I said. It is self-love. I am not volunteering for abuse anymore, and I know they miss that.


    1. Hi Mia and Old&Wise,

      Thanks! Between you two I'm gonna get a bigger head! ;)~

      In all seriousness, I am glad that you find my thoughts useful - I'm here for the same reason, to learn. ...well, that and I do get some chuckles and an odd (and quite unique) sense of "community." (now if that doesn't speak volumes...)

      Mia: It sounds like you were fortunate to have some good people around you to help you through the ordeal and you've responded in a way that will make you stronger and, hopefully happier in the long run. Good on ya!

      Old&Wise: I include you in the folks I learn from. It sounds like the socio in your life is someone dear to you - that takes some commitment. My hats off to you. I would only say what you already know - we are not easy to get through to and not always easy to be around. Your words are a helpful window for me -

    2. Hi Harry, Dropped by to check out the keen wit I've missed these past weeks. Missed ya'll.

      "sense of "community." (now if that doesn't speak volumes...)

      Heh Heh. That comment provided me with a helpful window. :))


    3. Hi Faust! Nice to hear from you - just found your post.

      How is/was the visit?

      Looking forward to your insights and perspective. 8)~

  13. M.E. would make a lot money (and gain respect) by conducting "Sociopath Workshops" around the world, teaching sheep how to toughen up and control their emotions, and who knows, maybe even prey a little?

  14. Lol, Eat, Prey, Love?

    1. I think a slight change: Eat prey, love. Mmmm...

  15. "Did I lie and manipulate them so they would like me more, who doesn't lol."
    Plenty of people don't (consciously). It's called an authentic loving relationship.

    1. Not even remotely true, anon. Every given flower, picked up check, and purchased movie ticket is a manipulation and if you don't tell a beautiful woman on the first date that you want to be inside her, it is a lie of omission.

      The big difference is that an empath uses these socially sanctified manipulations based on social structure or genuine concern for the emotional position of the woman in question. They manipulate and lie within the confines of the game, with the best of intentions, and from a position of empathy.

      A sociopath is blessed/cursed with the absence of tint (read the blog post about "can sociopaths love" for reference) and so must accept from the start that they are manipulating the person with a self-serving motivation. We are not afforded the privilege of a false belief in altruism or a rationalization that we are protecting the feelings of our prey, because we cannot relate to them in the same way you do. The same acts, dispossessed of the appropriate emotional cocktail as fuel, become somehow villified in the glaring light of emotional subjectivity.

      Ever been in deadlocked traffic on a four-lane highway and watched a CSR race down the shoulder towards the next exit? If his wife is in labor, the masses feel he is breaking the law for a great reason and his acts may even be heroic. If he just got tired of waiting in line, he is the worst of humanity. Same act.

    2. Yes same, act...but not really not same makes the whole difference.

  16. Everything about the original comment in the post is illogical and, frankly, stupid. Amazing to me that M.E. can hold this up as insightful.

    "Yes, I stole your most prized possessions, burned your house down, and cleaned out your bank account. And yes, now you are destitute and homeless. But the fact is, once you invited me to dinner that one time, you totally CHOSE to be victimized. At a certain point, you need to stop bellyaching. Besides, I NEEDED to steal your stuff. I did it to SURVIVE, ok? Never mind that other people survive just fine without stealing shit; I'm special. When are you going to stop acting like a victim?"

    Then M.E. follows it up with, "You need to see yourself as a survivor in order to give meaning to your negative experience." True, but I'm pretty sure Viktor Frankl, by extracting meaning from his experience in the concentration camps, did not intend to exonerate the Nazis from responsibility for his experiences.

    Sociopaths remind me a lot of that character in Larsson's Millennium series - the one who can't feel pain. Except that at least that character does not deny the existence of pain for other people. He just doesn't feel it himself. Sociopaths say, "I don't feel emotional pain, therefore it doesn't exist... Ok, maybe it does exist, but it can't possibly be as bad as everyone says it is. They're just wimps."

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