Monday, November 17, 2014

Recovering sociopath

From a reader:

My sociopathy is certainly not mild. I understand the unquenchable thirst for sex. There were times when I'd have sex with three different women in 12 hours, on a weekday for no reason other than I could. Women who knew and hated each other--just for the kicks. I understand the admiration and obedience they offer when given the powerful combination of multiple orgasms and sweet nothings whispered in their ear. Invest 20 minutes writing a heartfelt poem and they'll cut you a key to their house. Walk in and explain how much you've missed them any time you're feeling horny and understimulated. Neither ditsy college girls nor educated, successful women are safe from the skills born from our predatory instincts. Such things feed our equally unquenchable egos; perpetual lust, with clever justification via logic, science, and the nature of humanity. It's just how we are built, we say. Now shut up and let me control you.

Such behavior lost me the woman of my dreams... someone who not only loved me true, but knew and accepted me on the deepest level for exactly what I was, and sacrificed much just to make me fit into her life. Ironically, yesterday was the 4th anniversary of the last time we spoke. I've not had sex in years, and I won't. I'm waiting for her to come home.

If she was so accepting, then why did she leave? Why were my tendencies not acceptable as a lover? Because sociopathy is a way of thinking, not acting. We are blessed to choose exactly who and what we are. It makes me sad to see so many I identify with using silver tongues to live in self-enabled denial--believing that "right" and "wrong" are just words with meanings that vary as opinions do. What an ugly truth to see it is an empath's world, and we are the outliers for a reason. Regardless of neurobiology, everyone should wake up with the intent to make the world we share just a little bit better. Sleeping around benefits none but oneself, and is far from being healthy. If anything, those born with poor impulse control would benefit more from practices of restraint and humility. It's human, even if we don't feel human at times.

In the end, we are people first and sociopaths a distant second. She taught me that. As a former kleptomaniac, pyromaniac, pathological liar, sexual prowler, and selfish exploiter with a closet full of masks and memories, I can say that my life is now infinitely better. People love me now, even if I don't quite know what that means. I don't need to understand love to understand it's important to be on either end.

I'm still a sociopath and live a stimulating life that suits me well. I simply chose to be a good person, too. As it turns out, both are possible. 

Your long-time, silent reader,

Telos, 23

P.S.: Thank you, M.E. Never found myself until after I found you.


  1. How could he have gone from having sex with multiple partners often to having no sex for 4 years? Something else must have happened in his last relationship to cause this distance with physical intimacy, especially because of the natural urges due to testosterone... any ideas?

    1. Hi MP,

      A crackpot, arm chair theory to get the day started -

      First, I take the signature "Telos, 23" to suggest an age. That being the case, the gal left when he was 19. Be he a sociopath or just a very horny kid with no impulse control (or, Dr. G - what is your more informed opinion?), it may be as much a matter of maturity as anything.

      Of course, she may have gone off to university or the military, so "waiting for her to come home" might not be as extreme a reaction as it might appear at first blush. The author is a bit vague, so it's hard to really make too much of it.

      Also, that behavior fits with someone stuck in the "bargaining" phase of loss. Maybe even "denial."

      I do, however, relate to his "choosing" to be a "good person" (again, a little vague, so...). I have many, many terrible thoughts every day, but I choose not to act on them. In many cases, it's not that I would have any regrets other than the obvious mess it would make of things.

      That means no nookie since age 19...bummer...

    2. Another crackpot theory: he "found Jesus" (someone mentioned he was missing... *rimshot*). That's something I've seen happen more than once - people realize who/what they are and there is a sort of existential panic that causes them to find something in religion.

      It's never happened to me, so I can't say what they find there....

    3. HLHaller, if what he writes "As a former kleptomaniac, pyromaniac, pathological liar, sexual prowler, and selfish exploiter..." is true, then congrats to him to being able to overcome these destructive impulses. My take on it is that he's adopted at least a form of asceticism to cope with his preoccupation with worldly pleasures and his impulsive instincts.

      I think it is possible for sociopaths to become ascetics??

    4. Bob was an ascetic. I thought his story was interesting. Wish he was still around...

    5. What did you like about Bob?

      I read on Haven's blog a dsm description of BPD that referred in the extended discussion that pwBPD may often perceive themselves as evil. The word evil is actually used. It's a notion that has a lot of salience for BPD and I guess not much salience in sociopathy. IDK

    6. Yea they can feel bad or evil. I think part of it has to do with the dark pathology that's constantly being disguised. As long as they aren't in an episode, everything on the surface can look ok, but underneath there are some really dark, destructive, often violent thoughts.

    7. I miss Bob too. And Jamie.

    8. Psychopaths are the sort who become ascetics. If they figure out that chasing after things (eg "new pussies") doesn't lead to lasting happiness, they may take up a spiritual quest. You are likely to do that when you realize that hedonism actually leads to addiction and painful cravings. Normal people don't tend to get as addicted to stuff, so they don't wind up as miserably addicted. Also they have more ties to family and society that stop them from taking up the spiritual quest. In contrast is totally reasonable for a psychopath to realize, "I'm doing it wrong" and unplug from life - because he doesn't really care about what he's been doing, how others will feel about him dropping out, etc.

      Here's Apostle Paul, founder of the Christian religion. A psychopath.

      Some branches of Buddhism are excellent for psychopaths. They stress impulse control and introspection and are totally nonjudgmental.

      Watch this guy talk about torturing a bunny rabbit and guilt.

      For him, stealing a candy bar and torturing a bunny rabbit to death are both immoral, because they lead to unpleasant states of mind (for the "bad guy"). Maybe stealing a candy bar leads to more bad states than torturing the rabbit (who knows) - in which case stealing a candy bar is "worse" (less skillful) than the other.

      If that system of reasoning bugs you, you need to psychopath up.

      Classic Buddhist morality, in particular, seems right in the psychopathic vein: <a href=">moral is what supports your meditation practice</a>.

      What is meditation practice for a psychopath? Feeling cravings and not acting on them. Again and again, until you're dead. Marcus Aurelius was clear: the bright side of death is that you don't have to control yourself any longer.

      Normal morality doesn't make sense for the psychopath. He looks at the big picture and concludes he might as well be selfish. Eg we're all just made out of atoms, so if I kill you and steal from you, big fucking deal. You can't argue one arrangement of atoms is better than another. A thousand years from now, or even 200, it just won't matter. Or if I was in Syria, cutting your head off would be cool. But here we are it is not OK. So rules about cutting heads off people are clearly arbitrary and I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. If you don't like it, that's just your personal opinion. Sure, I might go to prison, but that's just a legal issue, not a "moral" issue.

      If that's how you think, the Buddhist morality is about the only thing that makes sense: you do things to encourage your own peace of mind.

      A psychopath that has had addictions knows it isn't nice to want something and not have it. And he knows that when the craving goes away, he feels great. And the psychopath is weird enough and self-centered to think, "if I was just happy with whatever obtained, nothing else would matter."

      So it is easy for a psychopath to decide that being free from cravings is the way to go. So you'll work on extinguishing all cravings. It is a no-brainer. If that means giving up everything, OK. That's just how it is.

    9. I formatted that badly. Here's that one paragraph again.

      Classic Buddhist morality, in particular, seems right in the psychopathic vein: moral is what supports your meditation practice.

    10. What exactly are you basing your theories about psychopaths on, Anon?

      And yes, I miss Bobby too.
      You don't meet many socially inept, completely full of it 50 year old VIRGINS with very fragile egos and no real sociopathic traits, who are convinced they are the embodiment of sociopathy.
      Who think they are fearless because they walk alone at night and once talked to a restrained psych patient.
      Who claim to be master manipulators that can seduce any woman they want and manipulate her using sex. Only he just totally doesn't want to...

      That level of delusion is something rare and utterly hilarious.

      Bobby, if you're reading this... give me some sugar :)


    11. I can see Buddhism being a good fit for sociopaths. To me that makes sense. Glad you brought it up.

    12. HI Anon (good post - pick a handle so I can watch for you! 8)~ ),

      Buddhist teaching are at the core of how I have taken control of my life. Being as Buddhism is about the only "dogma free" game out there, it's understandable that people who are "empathically challenged" would be able to find "help" there.

      That's what appeals to me - there isn't some asshole telling me what I can/can't do or should/shouldn't do. It's about something I can understand - my experience.

      One of the most common features that people talk about is the feeling of being disconnected from people. Why should I listen to anyone else's experience? My experience makes a whole lot more sense to me - and that is the brilliance of Buddhist ideas from where I sit.

      Am I a Buddhist? Friends who are Buddhists (one lived as a monk for about a decade) say that I even though I identify as agnostic (devoutly so), I live my life much like many practicing Buddhists.

      I prefer "agnostic" though - I like the idea of being spiritually "unfinished." It affords me the freedom to explore other ways of thinking without feeling like there is a "right way." Practically speaking, I try to use at least the golden rule...

      @GE: From your posts, it sounds like you've been on this site a while. I'm glad to make your acquaintance. 8)~

    13. @Dr. G and DocSciFi,

      Regarding the idea that BPD's see themselves as evil (I have). Could it be that being BPD is, as Dr. G suggested, a part time sociopath and that leads to this perception?

      It would make sense that we would look at our actions and "feel" the pain and suffering we've caused (or some other way of making the connection). As a result, because we know we couldn't/wouldn't change our actions, we can only conclude that we are "evil?"

      I've been down that road - maybe that's part of the Borderline Experience. We "get to" be sociopathic, but we also have to "feel" what we've done. It's not quite a conscience, but it is a perspective...

      It's a day of crackpot, armchair theories, so why not run with it... 8)~

    14. Dr, G.,

      Obviously, the idea of "part time sociopath" has struck a chord with me - I hope you don't think I'm "beating a dead horse."

    15. Did you like my link of Dory the fish saying "are you my conscience?"..that line always cracks me up. "Obviously, the idea of "part time sociopath" has struck a chord with me - I hope you don't think I'm "beating a dead horse." I mean hey, it's the truth. We sort of slip into a transient state of sociopathy. Borderlines are every bit as guilty of megalomania. I've had to come to terms with my delusions. I can't really take on ten men, and win. You ever notice in our violent fantasies people just passively take our violence? :P

    16. I don't know how you are, but there's very little that I regret. I never thought in a bazillion years that could be attributed to a personality disorder, I always thought that was just me. I should know better considering my education. I've always been aware of that characteristic, but I never really examined it much until visiting this site. I'm wondering now how often borderlines regret doing things. I always take any experience that I guess others would regret doing, and dissect it. I learn a lot about it, but I feel more like a scientist studying something. I've done some pretty atrocious things, but that's just borderline crap.

    17. HLHaller and Dr. G, have either of you felt remorse -- rather than regret, or shame?

    18. Anon @945am, I would like to second hlhaller.

      Ge, I don't understand the animosity Bob generates. I have not been on this site for as long as you have, it sounds like. I only recall a couple of sociopath wannabe that were trying to tear him apart a little while ago. What am I missing?

    19. Hi Dr.G.,

      "I don't know how you are, but there's very little that I regret. I never thought in a bazillion years that could be attributed to a personality disorder,"

      Ain't that the truth!!!

      I can justify all manner of bad behavior - Hell! it's something that some of my friends that relate to my darker side have come to count on. I sometimes help them talk themselves into doing sketchy stuff - and I want them to do the same for me.

      Even after writing that and reflecting on it a short while - yeah, most of what I really regret are the things I didn't do.

      @DocSciFi: I am really not being "cheeky" when I say, I really don't understand the difference between regret and remorse. I did a quick search to make sure I wasn't confused,, I don't see any difference...

    20. I've had some regrets with my son, but that's about it. I've destroyed people, and I still savor it like a fine wine. I'm not bragging, this site just gives me a place to examine my darker side.

    21. Does this distinction have meaning to you --
      "Regret is the unpleasant emotional response (generally, sadness or unhappiness) we have to an external event or circumstance. It comes from a French word meaning to “complain” or “lament.” You can have regret about not being able to attend an event because of a prior commitment. You can also regret an unfortunate happenstance, a bad stroke of luck, or disappointing turn of events. You can even have regret for a situation that arises purely as a consequence of your own behavior. But in any case, the regret response is a purely “amoral” one. That is, feelings of regret have nothing to do with the perceived moral rightness or wrongness of anything. Rather, regret is only about the displeasure you feel about the circumstance itself and the negative impact it may have on you.

      Remorse is very different from regret. Remorse is the experience of deep anguish over something you’ve done that has created a bad circumstance or caused injury to others (whether that injury was intended or unintended). The word comes from a Latin word meaning “to bite with more force,” and refers the gnawing feeling or gnashing of teeth a person of conscience who knows they have done wrong might experience. It’s a moral response to a moral failure and as such, it arises out of a sense of guilt."

    22. Thanks DocSciFi!

      My initial response is, I get the former, but the latter is more slippery.

      If I consider "intended" actions (some of which had results that might be deemed morally objectionable), then I have NO regrets. You might be able to dig into my childhood for counter examples, but...

      As to "unintended actions," that's a little different in that I have some "deep sadness" about some bad decisions I've made and the consequences I've suffered as a result (e.g. being rejected by someone that is important to me - not having them in my life any more). Is that that the same as remorse?

      My initial thought is no - it's not the same. It's about me and not them...

    23. yeah, remorse is about causing a bad circumstance or injury to others if one takes the definition from that quote.

    24. @Dr. G 6:50: Only 10 men?!?!? I'm trying to figure out how to topple nations!!! ;)~

    25. O&W, either that was a particularly see through tactic, or you are missing a whole hell of a lot.

      There is no real animosity. Personally, I feel for Bobby about the same as I feel for all the 15 year old skinny, acne riddled white boys from middle class families who like to speak Ebonics and talk about what shit hot gangstas and playas they are... close to pity.

      I find his particular brand of delusion hilarious, but it really is fun picking his bullshit apart.

      It's sweet to see you are still trying to pamper his delicate ego, maybe he will come back after all ;)


    26. Pamper to his delicate ego? Someone is getting a little carried away with the assumptions here. I suspect Bob really is a sociopath based on what I have seen, and what has been described. It's a complex personality type, and spans the rang from one end of the spectrum to the other. By the way, wasn't he in his mid 30's? I think this was one of the things that interested me because he received his diagnosis around the same time I received mine. Also, since he is in neuroscience I appreciated his professional opinion on some of this, and I thought some of his experiences with psychologists, at least what some of his perceptions were, and how he would attempt to manipulate them was interesting especially hearing it more from a first hand experience.

    27. Now, now... who's the one making assumptions?

      I already explained before, in great detail and with the help of several others, why there was nothing much sociopathic about Bobby once you manage to get the real story out of him.

      He was intelligent enough to memorise and parrot information he learned about sociopaths. He was deluded enough to believe in it.
      But the gross inconsistencies, examples of real life experiences he volunteered in an effort to impress and the way he responded to different approaches painted a very, very different picture to what he was claiming.
      I think Heironymous Bot was really onto something when he suggested Schizoid PD.
      Oh and he claimed several times to be middle aged. Then switched to claiming to be younger.

      If one genuinely seeks it and knows how to parrot, it is rather easy to convince a shrink to give the diagnosis.

      But I do find it particularly funny when people rant that shrinks don't understand sociopaths at all.
      Yet these same people claim their shrink telling them they may have "antisocial tendencies" is absolute proof that they are sociopaths.

      This place has been all but dead for quite some time. And with good reason. HL seems to be the most sociopathic and most interesting person on here in ages.
      Most sociopaths like Anon and shrinks like Melissa, people who tried to bring life and sense to this place, simply gave up.
      Maybe Bobby will figure it's safe to preach again.


    28. Uh huh. And what's your and Heironymous Bot's background in psychology? Saying that HL, where he describes "big emotions", is "the most sociopathic" on here sounds like you don't understand sociopathy at all.

    29. By the way, have you ever actually dealt with someone in real life with schizoid personality disorder because what you describe isn't even remotely close to how they are.

    30. Riight, we're going to play the "you're not a shrink and I totally am, so I cannot be wrong" game?

      Neither Heironymous nor I need to be a shrink to see through ridiculous bullshit.

      You falling for the crap he fed you was understandable. You were very keen to talk to sociopaths and he was falling all over himself to volunteer.
      He is intelligent and knew the right buzzwords, so can be somewhat convincing...

      Oh and Bobby did get rather emotional when we challenged him. All because we bruised his precious ego.
      HL, with all his borderline traits, is still more sociopathic. And infinitely more interesting.

    31. You sound about as dumb as the guy who is obsessed with Casey anthony

    32. Mirror, mirror in the wall.
      Who is the most sociopathic of all.


      Bob was different. New ideas. A special type of nerd. I don't care how sociopathic he is, and who can really tell anyway. The people who attacked him, I did not like so much... mainstream wannabe assholes they were.

      GE where do you come from? I don't remember you. How long have you been reading? And participating?

    33. Lol!
      You really do miss a hell of a lot.

      You know what's really funny? Of all the people that were attacking him, only Anon considers himself a sociopath.
      It was never about who is most sociopathic, it is all about calling people on bullshit and exposing lies and delusions.
      What this site used to be famous for.

      Seems like Alter was right on the money yet again ;)

    34. GE, I do not remember you, but your brand of bullying does indeed remind me of posters that were around earlier this year and injected a particularly poisonous atmosphere not conducive to sharing thoughts the way people have since they disappeared.

      Would you care to reintroduce yourself?

    35. Lol!
      I'll let you figure out who I am. You'll get there eventually.

      Sharing of thoughts? That's what you call this? Mutual masturbation and "I wuv you" reigning supreme is more like it. One of the reasons why there are pretty much no sociopaths on here :)
      Even Mach seems to have given up. Shame, I quite liked and respected her.


    36. Ah yes. I should have known you changed your identity. Bullies are cowards. And you came back without your little friends? Interesting. Or maybe your friends were also you. Alter was a really good name now that I think about it.
      So you see mutual masturbation on this site. And you are lurking. Please ask yourself why.

      On a final note, I just want to say that your husband is the absolute luckiest man on earth.

  2. I bet his former girlfriend was exactly like M.E.! She might have accepted
    him just as he was because she was like he is now-a reformed Sociopath.
    "it takes one to know one."
    He says he is waiting for her to come back. He has no way of knowing if she WILL come back. And if she DID come back, that she wouldn't get into an
    accident, catch a disease, or be murdered.
    Yep, M.E. is the BEST bar none. She is the QUEEN of ALL women. Dr. Ginger
    runs a close second. Why are men so oblivious to how wonderful they are?
    I guess they must be "asleep."
    M.E. & Dr. G must do the GREATEST good deed of their lives. They must
    reach out the hand of love and friendship to Casey Anthony and help to reform
    her. They must give her a fighting chance so that she doesn't live a life of
    isolation and misery. Why should they do it? Why climb a mountain? Because
    it's there.

  3. Anyone here have a view on whether Ari Onassis, second husband of Jackie Kennedy, was a psychopath?

  4. Imagine a world of sociopaths only. What would happen? Would they all kill each other off? Or would they decide to invent empathy before it was too late?

    As far as I know (and the facts are very slight, as opposed to rumor and hearsay), the closest we know of to a sociopath society was ancient Sparta. Most of the stories we have about them come from the Athenians, who were not exactly paragons of empathy. However, they wrote the history books (of the time), and painted themselves in a slightly better light. Perhaps, all humans were sociopaths, and the Bible (and perhaps the other religious) tell the story about how humans invented empathy and cured themselves of sociopathy. Hold still while a sink my fangs into your neck to suck your blood and then eat your liver.

    1. "Imagine a world of sociopaths only."

      It would look almost the same. Humans (including empaths) have no fixed and intrinsic moral values and retaliation is the only thing keeping a functional society.

      Empathy is hilariously overrated.

    2. Can we consider the "new Muslim state" in Irak and Syria as Sociopaths/psychopaths?
      I'm trying to find an example of sociopaths society...

      I have read an interesting french article about ME book, and a psychologist explains how ME could certainly partly be relieved.
      I will translate here a part of it.

    3. I dunno but that shit they're doing with women they're breeding a few radical feminists. I hope some abuser gets the Nannie Doss treatment.

    4. Lala, can you please point me to the article? Not a problem if it is in French. Other languages.. Not do much.

      Est-ce que cela veut dire que le livre de ME est disponible en Français? Peut-on le trouver en France dans les librairies ou faut-il le commander sur internet?

    5. OldAndWise, yes the book has been translated in french (Larousse édition je crois)...but I've read only the english version.
      For the article, see below i've translated it.

      Tu es français(e)?

    6. Thank you for the translation and nice to see you back, Lala.
      I actually did not realize that narcissique pervert était la même chose que sociopath. Are you sure?

    7. I'm nearly sure, this is what they say in the article as far as I remember. But i didn't translate this part.

  5. "We are people first and sociopaths a distant second."

    Biologically, sure. Philosophically, I don't know that I agree. When I am functioning in a warzone (Iraq, Afghanistan), its my humanity and not my disorder that slips. When I am home and dealing with the irrational decisions of supposed leaders based upon in their emotional convictions, it is my pathology that flares and invites me to disassemble their lives rather than a more structured human/personal response.

    1. Hi CC,

      Yes, context is VERY important.

      Sadly, politics has never been rational - if it were, war wouldn't make any sense.

    2. Hi CC, are you saying you feel more compassionate in a war zone than home? Can you give examples?

  6. Hi All,

    Reading this makes me think that the division between socios, normals, BPD, empaths and so on is really quite fine. Doesn't everyone feel like murdering someone at some point? Don't we all possess dark thoughts? In one of the lost gospels there's a story about young Jesus (age 12?) who pushes another kid off the roof of a house. If Christ can lose control of himself and act violent as a kid and still be viewed as a divine adult, why not us? ;P

    We're all monsters on some level.


    1. Hi Grendel,

      Sure we're all monsters - some of us just know it and "own" it and revel in it.

      I've pretty much always skewed to the darker side of things. I have a particular enjoyment of gallows humor, especially if it's "too soon" - I do enjoy watching people squirm uncomfortably; that's my typical level of sadism and one of the main ways I sublimate my dark thoughts.

      I see it as usually harmless - sometimes I say something that genuinely upsets someone - that's regrettable.

      That's the monster that I am: Assholus Typicus. 8)~

    2. Also, I should mention, that I in the camp of people who see those labels as "clumsy." They don't do a good job of distinguishing much of anything. DocSciFi posted on the crazy number of combination of symptoms being lumped together.

      I'm not sure it's so much a fine line as much as a blunt instrument.

    3. Hi HL, Assholus Typicus lol. As good (because it's funny) a label as any I've heard so far -- After doing some reading, I still think most times labels do more harm than good. It's kinda worse than clumsy, because it sticks the monster in a cage that doesn't fit, which causes him pain and pisses him off. Makes him even more dangerous.

      Glad dark humor is still around in someone besides me. For me it's partly a coping mechanism. Personally, I just want to rip out dick cheny's heart and eat it. But my table manners are so crude I can't get invited over for dinner.


    4. HL, A question, if you don't mind. Were you born a monster? Or made into one? Just curious.

      I was born a 'golden child' but changed after my family began to fall apart and my hatred was born. I tucked it away, so deep no one, including me, knew it was there. But then I started working in situations where I saw a lot of abuse -- and my evil feelings woke up. So I make jokes that horrify others . . . guess it's my way of letting it all hang out. I'm not Dexter, but I think he's my favorite anti-hero.


    5. HL, I'm starting to really like you.

      You are clearly highly intelligent, have great insight and a wicked sense of humour. It's a good combination.
      I hope you will continue sharing.


    6. Hi Grendel,

      Was I born a monster or was I made a monster? Interesting question…

      I believe that it’s kind of both in my case. Both of my parents were smokers and alcoholics (I recall reading some papers linking the epigentics, but I’m not finding any just now…) that were probably best described as BPD. They grew up in Eastern Europe during WWII and later a revolution that they participated in. So, I think that there was a genetic disposition (I’m trying to figure out how to get my DNA sequenced without giving up the data and without spending several thousand dollars – anyone have any thoughts?). In addition, likely because of their difficult childhoods, they didn’t acquire the best parenting skills (in addition to triggering their PD's). Not bad people, just not skilled parents (took me a while to work that out – I was very angry with them for a lot of years).

      Add to that a very chaotic childhood that included some neglect as well as corporal punishment and a smattering of violence and it’s kind of inevitable that I would become a monster - my younger sister fared much worse. What surprises me sometimes is that I have done as well in life as I have.

      I've been enjoying this forum as well and I'm glad to see some new posts to liven things up. Lot's of good posters on here - 8)~

    7. HI GE,

      Flatter will get you everywhere. 8D~

    8. Hi HL, Thanks for sharing. I really do wonder what genes get tripped by what circumstances, and whether they can be re-switched. From what I understand and was told by three different geneticists, a gene can be expressed at least 16 different ways, so it's pretty hard to say exactly how even the genes themselves affect each other. Wish I could help you with advice on where to get yours sequenced without spending a fortune or giving up the data . . . be careful. It seems that governments are collecting every scrap about people they can . . . next thing they'll want a biopsy of your liver, a sliver of brain, etc. lol

      Getting past the anger is very hard for some: you sound very Buddhist about it all. I know someone who seems almost insane with blaming people in her past, and frankly, it's getting boring. Plus I don't really understand how that's useful; the only time I found it useful to vent at my parents was at their funerals, and then it was pretty much gone.

      Or maybe, like my namesake, I've just transferred those feelings onto the larger screen of the world. Because I am very pissed off at the bloody wars, pollution, corruption and all around senseless, stupid, unnecessary suffering I see happening everywhere I turn. It makes me mad to watch the world burn.

      The forum, on the other hand, is interesting. At least people actually do write some pretty cool thoughts and insights. I like reading OandW, Dr. Ginger, Dr. SCiFi and you. Some of the Anons are pretty sharp pencils, too.


    9. Hi Grendel,

      There are about a dozen or so genes and particular alleles that seems to come up a lot. The genes, MAOA, COMT, SLC6A, DRD4, and 5-HTT (I think there's a different name for it now...) seem particularly involved - or at least there seem to be a lot of papers being published for those.

      LOL! Yeah, I'm not too keen on giving up my information to the government without at least a bit of a fight.

      Years ago in therapy, my first indications of progress on any topic was that I started to get tired to talking about it. That has, to some degree, my barometer of progress - when I get tired to talking about it, it seems to me that I've worked out whatever it was that I was having "big feelings" about.

      Some "feelings," however, seem to follow a different arc. The persistent anger is no longer a dominant feeling for me, but I can tap into it when needed. The emptiness and sense of being "other," those I've learned to live with and over time, I've been able to give them less and less voice.

      I see these "feelings" as being more "chemical based," rather than "experientially" based. In other words, I see them as being symptoms of my biology being out of whack rather than needed to make some dramatic change in my life.

      I like this forum because it allows me to examine my darker side in a very refreshing new way. Even my shrinks can't hide their discomfort (and sometimes contempt) completely. Here, people relate. That's why I refer to this as my Assholes Anonymous meeting.

      Yep - that list and others: Puppy Basket and Til come to mind as well.

  7. In my opinion, this Telos person is not a sociopath. Sociopaths do not bond in the way the writer describes. However, narcissists do. I do not have anything against narcissists. They have their place in the world as much as sociopaths do. Narcissists promote changes in people, in business and in society.So do sociopaths. They are close to sociopaths but one thing quite different is that they believe in eternal love. They also flip flop between one extreme to another in terms of behavior and physical appearances. Going from playboy to nerd. Then again, as hlhaler said, it could just be that he grew up. Good luck to him. He sounds like he found the decent person within himself.

    1. Narcissists don't believe in love, eternal or otherwise. They don't know what love is, they can't experience it, and so insist it doesn't exist. Like the socio, the narcissist wants control over his woman. If she leaves for good, he has lost control and so she becomes in hindsight, the woman of his dreams.

    2. Anon.... Narcissists believe in Love, on yes they do. They actually live for this. Their love is inseparable from their desire to EAT up and Control their prey. Their sense of self comes actually in this search for Love. They are the childish, needy beings in this whole world. They suffer a lot in this search for romantic love.... they have feelings but a ZERO ability to control, even worst to understand it. They actually believe that this intimate Love they will find will give them some peace.... however the Love that nurtures him, is the main object of his projection and destruction, so of course he never finds this Love, he has NONE inside. very sad. My mum is like that, plus my ex best friend.... plus some other acquaintances that thought i could fill this HOLE they have. My ex lover is a classical psychopath, and it is a completely different history. The psychopath is a malignant narcissist. But not all narcissist are psychopaths.


    3. There is an enormous literature on idealization/devaluation in relationships with pwNPD. It is true they can form an attachment that sociopaths do not.

      But the person is split into all good or all bad. I suppose one could call that love but I would not use that word myself. I read similar type of splitting can occur in BPD although it tends to manifest itself in different ways and be driven by different concerns.

    4. Hi DocSciFi,

      I hadn't heard that there is a difference in "splitting" between BPD and NPD. Can you elaborate?

    5. Oh gee HLHaller, this is a day to be an armchair psychologist? From what I understand the splitting of the love object in NPD is based on superiority/inferiority whereas for BPD it is often related to abandonment concerns, or the overwhelming need such persons have at times to have their emotions catered to no matter what else, or how imposing, that might be.

      In NPD idealization is like having a prized possession that provides admiration and so on... Once some cracks are shown then the object is devalued.

      It's that the needs of NPD and BPD individuals in relationships are different, so that affects the basis on which splitting is made.

      Like I said there is a humongous literature on the subject of which I only know a bit. It is often written that psychopaths go through the idealization/devaluation in relationships but this is how they act, not what they actually feel about the love object -- if that makes sense?

    6. Hi DocSF,

      It does make sense - thanks.

      I guess where I struggle (and maybe it's an indication of my "cocktail") is in the "need for love." (or "affirmation," or "validation," or...) look similar to me. It seems that both BPD and NPD need that supply of [whatever that feeling of love/acceptance/admiration/etc]. When that supply stops, they are...upset (to say the least...I know from having my "supply" cut off...).

      The only difference I might see is that in NPD, the supply is "devalued" more quickly than BPD. By that I mean, as soon as the "supply" is compromised, the NPD will cut and run, whereas the BPD will try to either ignore or fix it.

      Again, I'm on an "arm-chair, crackpot theory" bender here - I'm interested to hear the thoughts of others. 8)~

    7. I doubt I can convince you that idealization/devaluation splitting is different in those 2 cases. BTW I don't really care for the whole notion of 'supply'. I think it trivializes things and in the end every person is then looking for supply of some kind. What I am saying is that the ideal in the two cases is rather different. I also guess that BPD people are able to step outside of this frame of reference at times whereas NPD are locked in by their own self absorption.

    8. "I also guess that BPD people are able to step outside of this frame of reference at times whereas NPD are locked in by their own self absorption."

      That I understand.

      As to the notion of "supply" - it's not a term I like either. However, if I'm being honest, when I think about what it means to be "abandoned," which is/was a big "deal" for me, it's not all that different from how I see NPD's (e.g. Sam Vaknin) and their "desperate" needs.

      As always, I could be talking out my ass (just ask Ma Haller - that's where I talk from the most!), but as I reflect on it, the two start to look more similar than different...

    9. you might be right. I read somewhere that half of all people diagnosed with NPD have a comorbid personality disorder as well -- so the distinction can only really be made on 'pure cases' that conform to some theoretical construct. I have also read in some places where people think BPD and NPD are actually quite similar. Still it seems to me the incorporation of the idealized object as part of the self is peculiar to NPD as the focus is always on the grandiose self. I am not saying they are completely different, but I don't think they are completely the same. On the other hand, I really don't know either. Doesn't that sound wishy-washy:)?

    10. DocSF,

      I am cool with your brand of "wishy-washy!" 8)~

      I see the big difference between the two (and they are different to me), is in the sense of self. BPD's, at least my version, seem to come from a place of "needing" to belong whereas NPD's "demand" to belong. Does THAT make sense?

    11. Yeah, the demand for me in NPD is more of ownership than belonging although I think you put this rather well -- I mean the struggle there is more intense because the NPD person has to be superior, but demands an idealized love object, and of course that object has to be perfect because it is his or hers, but then it can't be superior to him or her because this person is a narcissist...

      seems like a crappy existence.

    12. The gremlins are at it again...

      "seems like a crappy existence." Hinduism anyone?

      All judgment aside, can is be as simple as "need" versus "demand?"

    13. well demands are based on needs and wants in the end...

  8. Many optimistic people believe:"If the mind can concieve it, it can achieve it."
    Certain things are "fantastic" but possible.
    A certain imfamous woman by the name is Casey Marie Anthony is among us now!
    She exists, and takes up physical space on this earth. It is THEORITICALLY
    possible for someone reading these words to make accquaintace with her and
    befriend her. The person would likely be a kindred spirit. You could do ALL the
    wonderful things that friends do: chit chat, sceme about the future, get together,
    talk about relationship prospects, etc...
    I don't expect you to drop ALL you commitments to do this. But the fact that it
    IS doable for someone of M.E.'s stature, means she SHOULD take a "stab"
    (No pun intended) at it. After all, the entire point of this blog was to help
    "cluster B folks" wasn't it. If you could have prevented the Adam Lanza
    Why do you think that shows like Star Trek were so intreging? They gave
    people something to aspire to.
    Casey is there. You are here. Get moving.

  9. From what I feel from Telos, I truly believe that his history can be a denial of his pain, his abandonment, and the realisation of his humaneness. His suffering. As a defense for denying to be human, he may wants to believe to be the so called "powerful being" that psychopaths believe they are. Overcoming stealing, harming others is an aspect of maturity, of impulse control. The fact you did it, even with pleasure just show you are human. You are on the journey to get to know yourself, great you already know your dark side, but there is much much more... enjoy the ride boy! and hope you find a good fuck buddy to chill, have fun without cutting her head off!!! good luck.


    1. Well said, Mia.


  10. Hi again, As I wrote above, here is a quick translation of an interesting french article about ME book, and a psychologist explains how ME could certainly partly be relieved.
    Did you know that in france, Sociopaths are called "narcissistic perverts"?

    The title is "Sociopaths, they are not incurable".
    She contests the widely held view that these dangerous manipulators can not change.
    For her, ME wields this sociopath label as a claim to fame. This diagnosis, she asked herself, serves as an identity.
    It is clear that between Ann and her, it is a relationship based on trust. She describes it as such, even if she did not put the right words on it as to trust in his mind is to show weakness. In her childhood, her parents never valued this type of link, on the contrary. The benchmarks were scrambled by parents who wanted to show themselves as good people, when they were in fact abusive.

    Where we, the readers, we see in his narrative of the obvious acts of abuse, the author sees as educational principles that has been taught her to find them like justified. In her family, she and her four siblings considered normal to suffer the terrible wrath of the father. As adults, they kept the same view on these family events. Their inner world is distorted compared to reality, but they do not realize it.

    She relates her story to justify her current worldview, in which there is no choice but to become a victim, as her closest brother in age, sibling, served as a scapegoat or executioner . The story of her childhood is to convince her readers that she made the right choice by siding in the camp of the aggressors.

    (Journalist question) You mean she does not see the obvious contradiction between the violence she reports and the positive judgment she has on her education?

    Exactly. That's the problem. She learned, small, to find normal to be treated that way, hence his lack of remorse when she behaves this way with others.

    (Continues below)

  11. (Journalist question) In her book, she will even thank her parents for having the patience to raise a little sociopath and giving her a structural framework ...

    She found a convenient explanation that avoids her to question her parents and consider that they could be faulty, which would open an abyss under her feet. This miraculous explanation, it is the genes! She was born sociopath, while other children are born empathetic. This is the lottery, parents are not to blame, they do their best.

    (Journalist question) Sociopathy is not influenced by genes?

    Genes can play but at the margin, in the form of a predisposition. Scientific studies including twins show that genetic material has a small influence. But it weighs little compared to how the environment responds to the attachment innate needs of the child. People are not born sociopaths, you become growing up with parents that do not satisfy the essential needs of listening, understanding and support of their children. This construction of personality is reversible if the therapist relies on these foundations of attachment theory developed by John Bowlby.

    (Journalist question) Do you think she could "cure" her sociopathy?

    Absolutely. It has already taken the first step, by indulging in an exercise of introspection, what most destructive manipulators avoid doing. Then she knows there is a type of relationship based on trust, since it has had a constructive romance with Ann that it names in her book. It has yet to take the final step, ie admit she has not received as a child, the attention she needed nor from her mother, and father. For now, she continues to protect the good image of her parents which was necessary for her to survive the time she was completely dependent of them.

    (Journalist question) Sociopaths are nevertheless considered incurable ...

    Not by John Bowlby, anyway! His work shows that the type of emotional relationships that tied in adulthood is modeled on those that have been forged as a child with the people who were our major attachment figures. If they are tied to an unsatisfactory mode all is not lost, however. Our "attachment style" may evolve in the right direction with new friendships or successful experiences of love, or with the help of a therapist. The trigger is to become aware of the attachment needs and the means to satisfy them.

    (Continues below)

  12. (Journalist question) You would not be too optimistic?

    Most destructive manipulators do not wish question themselves, it's true. But justice may require, in the event of proven psychological violence. Moreover, even the most intelligent of them experience the failures in their professional or sentimental life because of their relational mode. The US also says it very well in his testimony. They then pass through periods of doubt, which could be opportunities to provide treatment. It is also necessary that they know that this is possible.

    And that's the end...
    Here is the article in French, where she gives the reference of some french books she wrote.

  13. The"US" is in fact "the american woman" (ME) didn't translate it well.

  14. Has anyone else thought of Hellboy when visiting this site? :P

  15. I've looked a bit into the statistics of people incarcerated who have AsPD. Virtually all of them have a substance use disorder. Beyond that it seems the vast majority have at least one other comorbidity like BPD, psychotic disorder, ADHD etc. I get the impression it isn't the AsPD by itself that leads to criminal behavior, which is weird given that it is defined as a disease of criminality by the criteria in the dsm.

  16. Seriously? He's simply lying about abstaining from sex. There's the wrench in the gear. All this debate over what he is or isn't when it's clear. He is a sociopath and he's fucking with you.


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