Monday, December 28, 2009

Sociopaths: pitiable?

I confess to never having had the patience to read The Sociopath Next Door all the way through, but I did find this psychologist's review of it interesting because it gets at the core of what many have accused this blog of trying to accomplish -- manipulating people to pity us:
"The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy."

The pity play or attempt to appeal to the sympathy of others was also addressed in research conducted by the Minnesota Department of Corrections and The Hazelden Foundation (2002). There, researchers concluded that criminal thinkers most often attempt to control others by portraying themselves as a victim, turning to fear tactics only when the victim stance fails to get them what they want.

The act of eliciting pity from another unequivocally makes the elicitor something to be pitied, a victim, per se. It is human nature to aid the pitied. Hence, the pity play, or victim stance, stands to get the Sociopath what he or she wants easily and without being found out as a bad guy. This is manipulation. Manipulation is the tool of choice for smart criminal thinkers and, according to Dr. Stout, the Sociopaths amongst us. She says, "Sociopaths have no regard whatsoever for the social contract, but they do know how to use it to their advantage. And all in all, I am sure that if the devil existed, he would want us to feel very sorry for him."
I sort of don't understand this argument, perhaps not surprisingly. Does the devil not deserve pity because he doesn't meet the criteria (i.e. not pitiable enough)? Or does he not deserve it because it wouldn't mean the same thing to him (i.e. wasted on him)? Or is it because, as the author suggests, there is something wrong with your pity being used for a purpose (i.e. getting you to think about something from another's point of view) rather than just functioning as one of the empath's favorite self-indulgent pastimes? I really want to understand, and I know some of our readers are very smart with strong feelings about this subject, so let's have at it. For once and for all, let's discuss all the reasons why this blog is manipulative and sociopaths aren't worthy of pity, etc. etc. And just for fun, let's try to use arguments that wouldn't apply equally to some other more "acceptable" variants of humanity.

87 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. Fist of all, I'd like to address (for me) the most problematic sentence in your post: "...let's discuss all the reasons why this blog is manipulative and sociopaths aren't worthy of pity, etc. etc"

    I don't believe this blog is geared that way. At least for me, this blog has been a refuge in an internet of hostility. The is the only place I can reliably turn that offers the other side of the coin. And for that, it's fantastic. Sure, we get some damaged victims trolling the comments every once and a while, but by and large, its made up people like us. And thats awesome, because we are rare.


    "Sociopaths have no regard whatsoever for the social contract, but they do know how to use it to their advantage. And all in all, I am sure that if the devil existed, he would want us to feel very sorry for him."

    For me, she is saying more accurately that Empathy (and the morality it provides) IS the social contract. And we do not understand it. This is true. We do have the choice of how to use it to our advantage (as empaths do not,) but most of us just try to mimic it to fit in.

    Overall (for me), Stout takes an aggressive stance against us socios. This is evident for anyone who reads the prologue. (but then again, this book is geared for the other 96% of the population.) I believe she also has lines like this one: "They can rob and torment us temporarily, yes, but they are, in effect, failed lives. ... even the ones with famous names are failed lives."

    Rough, no?

    and

    "Sociopaths cannot love, by definition they do not have higher values, and they almost never feel comfortable in their own skins. They are loveless, amoral, and chronically bored."
    (both from pg. 188)

    Overall, Stout nailed many things, but her overarching tone moves from cautionary pity to outright attack. But then again, this was read from the minority perspective.

    I did enjoy the read, however I believe there are a lot more of us who pass everyday unnoticed and feel much more satisfied than Stout would lead you to believe. She did interview psych ward patients and prisoners after all: the worst (most stupid) of us.

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    1. Excuse me, how narcissistic can you be? You claim that you are a sociopath? If you possess the integrity to admit you are a sociopath, you are not a sociopath. This is ridiculous.

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    2. It's not integrity to admit what you are, it's just a realization and a statement. It's actually really easy for a sociopath to admit to being a sociopath, because like everything in this fake world it's just another word, phrase, ideal, or facade that we can wear.
      It's why we can identity as straight, gay, bi, white, black, hispanic, whatever. A thousand years ago they would have said we're demon possessed and we'd probably play on that terminology too if that was the social que.

      Imagine you wake up one day and realize that everything in society is made up and that the rules don't apply. That's every day for everyone, you just chose to play by the made up rules or not.

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    3. I assumed sociopaths self-identify as sociopaths on this board because there are few consequences. There is no advantage in keeping the fact a secret, here. If a sociopath were physically interacting with others, I don't believe he would repeat disclosing what some have disclosed here.

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    4. Anonymity allows for honesty.

      "It's easy to identify as a sociopath" to yourself, or to strangers so long as it never gets back to you in real life.

      Once you out and say "I don't and cannot care about you all" that is when a visceral emotional negative reaction can be expected and is deserved.

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    5. I am a female sociopath, I am capable of loving my kids, but god send love to the person who ever gets in the way of that or any of my other goals. So your wrong it is a thing called evolution.

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    6. Gender was never in play here. Who cares that you are female?

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    7. Wesly, your comment presupposes that "Dave" (sorry but really?) views being sociopathic as a negative when in fact in this circumstance sociopathy works to his advantage somewhat. It is known that sociopaths often enjoy being the center of attention. In a regular setting, being a sociopath would turn a person into a social pariah, but on this website everyone is interested in sociopaths so being one places the sociopath into the spotlight. There is no reason for the sociopath to lie to the contrary. (By the way, I'm not a sociopath nor am I an expert on sociopaths these are just my thoughts on the matter).

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  3. The devil is evil because we say he is, if we said he was just misunderstood then he might not be so bad. lol

    Right? That makes sense in an insane way, right?!

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    1. it does make sense if you don't much think or feel it through. we don't say the devil is bad; god does -- and this distinction is important.

      human beings have only a limited capacity for grasping truth; god is the personified concept for ultimate truth. only god could ever see the devil, the personified concept of ultimate evil -- and be able to point at him most directly and assuredly. human beings only have a 6th sense about good and evil, and many dangerously disengage themselves from their perceptions to attain what they consider a "higher good."

      the big problem with socoiopathy is that bottom line, the people who suffer do not care about anyone else because they can't (unlike the narcissist who doesn't care bc they won't), and what's worse is they have the greatest need for care...and will do anything to get those needs met (whether its a basic need or a need to escape boredom). the world of carers want to help, and this just creates a world filled with "willing victims." sociopaths represent the personality with the deepest and most bottomless pit of need and the greatest experience of personal isolation, from which there is no known escape. this, my friend, is hell. it's where the devil lives and works.

      evil is no joke. but evil will certainly want you to think it is ;)

      and by "changing one's mind" to believe that sociopaths are "misunderstood" only breaks down the defense that allows sociopaths to get close -- which is right where they want you.

      the devil never comes at you "looking like evil" -- no! you would run from that! and he would never be able to use you if you ran. he comes in the side door, looking innocent and true.

      so really, go ahead. be my guest ;)
      change your mind, change your life ;)
      it's all good ;)
      consider a sociopath "misunderstood."
      eventually, you'll see...

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    2. Interesting premise but I'm confused by your assertion of "evil" as a real tangible sort of thing rather than an acataleptic phenomenon, how I view it. How can there be any good or evil? The thoughts are merely human constructs and impossible to define. I believe that is the reason that people turn to religion, so that they may rely upon something more knowable rather than facing the great terror and uncertainty of an abstract morality.

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  4. Chickens are to the bible what the bible is to the rooster's floor.

    "Oh look at all the shit!"

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  5. Well, sociopaths aren't deserving of pity because pity should be reserved for people who are innocent. People who act pitiful are complicit in their pathetic status, because it works for them. People come along and try to help them... but they don't deserve it because they aren't doing anything to try and fix it themselves. It brings others down. The codependent relationship can be very destructive for both people involved.

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    1. Aw shut up thats like saying people with diabetes don't deserve help or people with heart defects don't deserve help 50 million psychopaths in the world if not a fair bit more and the majority are unaware of their status and the vast majority of non sociopths (aka everyday street people) have no idea theres a lot of stupiity in the world that inferior brains like yours perpetuate because you act superior (you probably dont think you are superior because people like you come here to feel good about yourself by writing asinine comments) but we all know that the moment you ever had a fault defect health problem or was in some kind of emotional distress or disorder then you'd be out to get all the help you could find and be hunting sympathy just like anyone else. if anything its people like you who dont deserve to have support.

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  6. Once and for all, eh?
    How about once and whenever it's relevant?
    Yes, I think I'll stick to the latter.

    Now, where to start?

    How about sociopath quotes: Everyone's quick to blame the alien.

    Indeed, people are quick to blame those who are different, and those who are persecuted for no other reason than that they are different, irresepective of the nature of these differences, certainly deserve our pity. That's not really you though, now is it? People don't blame you, or other sociopaths, because you're different per se. They blame you for the specific differences, similar to the way one might blame his dog when he wakes up to find a 5th pair of boots chewed up. In effect, they blame you because all else being equal, you're 10x as likely as anyone else to do whatever has been done.

    Let's use one of your own analogies to point out how ridiculous this play for sympathy is:
    The sheep are so quick to blame the wolf.

    You're manipulative when you employ dishonesty or misdirection in your attempts to "enlighten" us to the plight of the sociopath.
    When you take two unrelated things, like discrimination based on difference in and of itself, and discrimination based on your rational likelihood to offend, trying to play them off as the same thing because the former elicits more pity than the latter, you are lying. You are manipulating.
    I honestly don't understand why this needs to be said. Isn't it another one of those "DUH!" things?

    I have an idea. I'll have a sociopath worm his way into your life and steal all your shit, leaving no trace of evidence. He'll be sure you know that he's a sociopath, too.
    We'll see who you point the finger at, and we'll see if you believe him when he says with a straight face and a smile, "Nope, it wasn't me. I'm sorry that happened to you. You deserve better. I had all my stuff stolen, once. It was just absolutely terrible. If you ever find out who did it, I'll help you give them what they deserve."

    If you want pity, you need to be honest with people. The moment you pull this shit, you instantly lose all claim to pity.
    You're back to preying on people, by leading them to think and feel a certain way through the use of lies and misdirection.
    Don't think people would pity you for the way you really feel?

    You might be right. You might not be worthy of pity, as your post suggests. That all depends on how you view yourself and your plight.
    A) I want to stop acting out because it's ruining my life, but these compulsions are so strong! I battle with them daily.
    B) I want people to stop blaming me for acting out, because it's ruining my life, and I can't help it anyway! *

    A is pitiable and believable.
    B is not pitiable.

    I would suggest that you adjust your rhetoric to fall in line with your goals.

    (* Bear in mind, I'm not saying you're always to blame, but I guarantee you that the blame thrown your way is the result of your past behavior.)

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  7. Peter Pan just verbally bitch slapped ME for his pitiful attempt to argue and debate pity.

    ME hits the ground! SPLAT!

    While looking up at the world, ME discovers Peter Pan is dickless, a clear veiw from up his skirt reveals this and ME plots to use it to his advantage, but is saddened to find that Peter doesn't give him the time of day and disarms him before ME can strike.

    ME changes his name to FU and begins writing violent posts that show just how evil he is.

    STAY TUNED FOR THE REVENGE OF PETER PAN TO DEFEND THE DICKLESS PART OF THIS POINTLESS COMMENTARY...

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    Replies
    1. You can't respond directly, with logic or reason, so you respond with an ad hominem. Ad hominem is an admission of defeat by the way, except you are defeated only because you can't admit you are wrong and move on, which benefits both parties. Ad hominem is, 'I can't win with logic or reason, so I am going to use personal insults."

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  8. Damn you're good, Anon.

    I... Ahh, can't do it!
    I am... NO NO NO, I shouldn't!
    I am not... I AM NOT DICKLESS!

    I can't help myself.
    Have pity.

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  9. You're a bastard peter.

    Do you hate black people as much as you hate sociopaths? Sociopaths don't have the choice to empathize anymore than black people have a choice as to skin color. The main difference then is that people think it is alright to hate and persecute sociopaths. True, sociopaths are more likely to commit crimes but so are black people. The fact is that they are more likely to be brought up in impoverished circumstances than whites and the poor are more likely to steal. Is that their fault?

    That said, everybody uses pity to their advantage. Pity gets you things you would not have had access to other wise, pity sex, charity, recognition. Sociopaths use the social contract to their advantage because they understand it better. Empaths use it too and to the same ends, just not as ruthlessly. What more does a sociopath gain from pity than an empath? In that regard, you are probably right, ME does not deserve pity, at least not nearly as mush as you and your limited perspective do.

    Try not to obsess peter, it is not very healthy.

    -This is Draxius

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  10. That picture of the heart broken robot: Awesome! Reminds me of Marvin from the movie Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_the_Paranoid_Android

    Peter Pan is not completely illogical. His distinction between sociopath A and B gets to the heart of the matter. My guess would be a lot of sociopaths fall under the B category, but so many of the sociopaths posting on this blog seem to be trying to reform, seeking help, crying out for understanding and advice. I think ME is an A type sociopath. Maybe I'm just projecting my own desire for pity, but he seems to fight the urges. Shouldn't people be judged by what they do rather than what they are tempted and able to do?

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  11. "sociopaths are more likely to commit crimes but so are black people."

    Are you fucking serious?

    Did you actually think no one would see that half ass attempt to say black people are just as likely to commit crimes as sociopaths?

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  12. A straw man truly worthy of my 14-year-old nephew. Nice try, Draxius.

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  13. please explain that straw man crap peter, I'm having trouble grasping that statement.

    -Draxius

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  14. Google it or remain in the dark. It's your problem, not mine.

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  15. black people are likely to commit petty crimes if you factor in poverty and economic distress that trickles down generation after generation, and guess what? so would any other race if faced with the same dilema but we live in a world where black is bad and white is good so i'll save myself the headache of lecturing racists

    as for sociopathy:

    "the heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it"

    i think if you define sociopathy by a lack of genuine emotion or care or action towards another human being then you're no longer faced with 1 out of 25 sociopathic people but more like the whole damn world and everyone in it. lets face it, people are wicked, you never know what's really in a person's mind while they smile in your face but betray you like Judas later.

    and like everything else in life, sociopathy belongs on a spectrum, and those who are lets say "more sociopathic" than the average sociopath usually makes the mistake of assuming that other people don't see through them. if you have a shred of intelligence and good observational skills, you can pretty much know a person inside and out and what they're capable of.

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  16. Draxius comparison with blacks is both stupid and instructive.

    Yes, black people do comprise a higher percentage of convicted felons than people diagnosed with ASPD. Even a casual review of FBI stats would confirm this -- the majority population in the US prison system is black by a fair margin.

    Why would sociopathic people align their fate with that of arguably the least assimilated minority population in the US?

    Even if a small % of the clinical and political elite were to counsel pity for the poor sociopaths . . . the more practical majority of the law enforcement (and human) community would be profiling the fuck out of us.

    No thank you, my invisibility is sufficient comfort against the aspersions of random losers.

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  17. The reason socios don't deserve pity is because:

    They don't accept ACCOUNTABILITY for their actions.

    Cause = effect, right?

    A sociopath playing the victim role (conscious or not) is manipulative because it shifts the attention to the outcome, rather than the series of bad decision making that led to result.


    Ex. Sociopath goes to jail. Sociopath feels bad for losing freedom, but not for the things that led up to jail. Sociopath calls mom, friend, girlfriend and appeals to them, playing victim -

    "The mean cops threw me in jail! I was just so hungry and broke, mom!"

    "But, Billy, you stole jewelry, not food..."

    A "victim" is someone who is truly blameless (uneducated, stupid, vulnerable, truly unable to improve their situation).

    A sociopath is not blameless, in 99% of situations. Why "pity" a sociopath?

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  18. Anon said: "They don't accept ACCOUNTABILITY for their actions."

    Devil's advocate: It's not that I don't "accept" accountability, I can not 'comprehend' accountability.

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  19. Speaking of strawmen, I like Peter's example:
    I have an idea. I'll have a sociopath worm his way into your life and steal all your shit, leaving no trace of evidence. He'll be sure you know that he's a sociopath, too.
    We'll see who you point the finger at, and we'll see if you believe him when he says with a straight face and a smile, "Nope, it wasn't me. I'm sorry that happened to you. You deserve better. I had all my stuff stolen, once. It was just absolutely terrible. If you ever find out who did it, I'll help you give them what they deserve."

    I have a better one: You let a sociopath worm his way into your life, he rapes your sister, gets her pregnant, then kills the fetus when it is 8 months along by slitting open her stomach. In the meantime, intentionally gets AIDS just so he can give it to your mom when he gets some of his buddies together and gang rapes her and your dad, he steals your identity and all of your money, and kills your girlfriend. All of this he does, miraculously, without leaving any evidence. We'll see who you point the finger at, and we'll see if you believe him when he says with a straight face and a smile, "Nope, it wasn't me. I'm sorry that happened to you. You deserve better."

    So Peter is saying that sometimes sociopaths are worthy of pity? I guess that makes sense, like when something bad happens to them, right? Like we feel pity for prisoners when they get raped? Or do we not? Only if they're black?

    This Draxattax.

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  20. ^dude, you forgot to shit in the dead fetus's mouth and burn the house down. If you were black, you'd remember these things.

    I'm sorry you got raped in prison (not really).

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  21. Well peter, if we're drawing lines in the sand about who is and is not pitiable, where do you put yourself? Do you consider yourself pitiable?

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  22. Harry Lime,

    "Devil's advocate: It's not that I don't "accept" accountability, I can not 'comprehend' accountability."

    Then, excuse me when I use a sociopathic tone with you, when I say:

    Get a fucking therapist, a life coach, a fucking book, a philosopher, doctor, or a wheelchair.

    Don't hold up society, because you "cannot comprehend".

    You need to be enabled to comprehend.

    The last thing you need is pity!

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  23. i have tried to live my life based on a statement made by OSHO that i read many years ago, it was:
    "do so that as you wish, so long as you are aware of that which you choose".

    i hate rules. i believe that circumstances have a lot to do with how people should "react" in different situations.

    from reading the posts and comments on this blog, i have come to the understanding that if someone were conscience or aware of the manulipulation they were engaged in, than that would be sociopathic.

    that if they were unaware, or truely believed in their reasoning for their manulipulations, then they would be narcissistic.

    i would go futher to say a far larger portion of society are sociopathic or narcissistic. that the empaths are a shrinking group.

    (and i just have to the state for the record that blacks are NOT more likely to commit crimes, they are more likely to be CONVICTED of committing crimes, and then also more likely of doing actual jail or prision time for those actions.)

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  24. Will everyone please stop talking about the blacks? They have nothing to do with this discussion. Damn you Draxius, or whoever you are. I shake my fist at you!

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  25. Here are the potholes in the new moronic statement made by Draxattax (whatever the fuck that means) about a sociopath who he rapes your sister, gets her pregnant, and then kills the fetus when it is 8 months along by slitting open her stomach. And intentionally gets AIDS just so he can give it to your mom when he gets some of his buddies together and gang rapes her and your dad, he steals your identity and all of your money, and kills your girlfriend. All of this he does, miraculously, without leaving any evidence.

    You think the fact that he spreads AIDS to your mom and dad isn’t EVIDENCE? Really?

    See, they have this thing they do now days where they can trace the distinct strands of the virus that is passed down from each person that leaves a trail, kinda like a family tree, that the crime lab can trace. Not to mention there is the possibility that your own DNA is infused to the disease’s make up—I consider that evidence.

    Also, this sociopath (like a shit load of them) would rationally weigh the pros and cons of how infecting himself with AIDS would be beneficiary to him in the long run and the chances are he would figure that the long time he’d be paying and taking drugs wouldn’t be worth the hassle just to get back at you…not when he could just kidnap them, blind them with a needle, puncture their eardrums and then rape them over the course of a month before he finally ties them together in an abandoned building and sets it on fire, burning them to death.

    That’s far more practical then purposely injecting himself with a slow killing disease.

    And if he was a real schemer, he’d just rape them and then infect them with the virus via a used needle he bought from a homeless junkie. Hell, why even rape them, if you do that then they will feel the need to get a rape test to see if they contracted anything. If you just inject them on the sly, then they might never know until it’s too late.

    Next time…THINK out all the unneeded bullshit in your count of Monty Python revenge.

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  26. I am glad I found this blog. I had no idea that it was geared towards pity. I just thought this was a place for sociopaths to come and discuss subjects related to their "condition".

    Being a non sociopath I think that the blog has helped me understand my confusing relationship with my ex better. I believe that it will help me deal with him and other sociopaths more constructively in the future because I understand their mind a little better.

    As for the pity thing, my sociopath would use pity to his advantage every chance he got. In fact, the pain he inflicted on others often went hand in hand with his use of pity. It was a vicious cycle of pity me I'm the victim, excuses for revenge and hurtful behavior especially if you did not pity him enough, deflect responsibility with more blame and pity. That is not a healthy use of pity. I do believe we should have sympathy for each other but if you have none for anyone else then don't expect it for yourself. Whenever anyone else was in trouble my ex would belittle, degrade them, and laugh so how can he then ask everyone to feel sorry for him when something bad happens to him and if they don't then he has the right to rub in that they are a horrible person?? Sociopaths only seem to think that the golden rule applies to themselves?

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  27. HAHAHAHAH! I havent commented for a while but I think this post is just too ironic.

    "for once and for all, let's discuss all the reasons why this blog is manipulative and .."

    This sentence would be enough for most empaths to answer the post by saying: no dear ME youre blog isnt manipulative, dont worry! Awww!!!

    Pity play at its subtlest. And im pretty sure it came so natural this went unnoticed to ME him or herself. AND some fell for it indeed by answering as expected.

    I have a better idea: lets talk about the relation between racism and sociopathy. Hehehe.

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  28. No Disney, I'm sure a few noticed it...you are not special, you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, you are the same decaying matter as everything else.

    Sorry, I just watched Fight Club.

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  29. Disney said: "lets talk about the relation between racism and sociopathy."

    There is none. If you do not enjoy a sense of community with 'white people' (or any flavor) you can't really denigrate the 'other' based on difference.

    Being racially or ethnically insensitive is another matter entirely, my nigga.

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  30. color me stupid...all this time i thought ME was a HE!!

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  31. There is no real evidence to say ME is a man or woman, which leads to only one conclusion...ME is a work in progress and should be refered to simply as IT. lol

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  32. I think disney is brilliant. The anon who bashed him or her is a douche bag. Although fight club is very good.

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  33. I miss Birdick..........
    Alot!

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  34. Of course Sociopath's deserve pity. Not that the pity will have any meaning to them other than maybe using it to hate you or justify doing something to you.

    But having pity, post sociopath is I believe healthy and a way of taking back your own power.

    I loved and still do love my Sociopath. Hey, she doesn't know she is one and she did and does her 'best'. Unfortunately her 'best' lacks any compassion, empathy, remorse or genuine feelings about things she did that felt to me like a death of sorts.

    Like how she had another man ready to have sex with and instantly did after creating a fight with me. That's not even the worst part. That being how she disappeared with him to make sure I knew and when confronted said, "why is it ok for a man to do this and not a woman?" LOLOL. no comment needed.

    But I marched on and she seduced me so well calling me her "beacon of Light and truth." we both had the best sex by far either of us experienced. The power of our connection knocked both our socks off.

    But as time always passed eventually she would return to her icy world and create ice struggles in which I stepped right into her traps that she set.

    I miss her!

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  35. Pity does not mean forgiveness. You can pity the sociopath. I do. But don't expect our pity to have an meaning or long lasting meaning.

    I am trying to figure out if it's possible to have a relationship with my ex Sociopath. It's 'fun' now that I finally got her figured out..She has no idea what she is (yet).. She has hurt so many and herself terribly..she is lost and trying to find her way. I almost want to free her from having to worry about being or having normal human emotions, she can't and she has not admitted it..or won't and can't change..Her mother, daughter and twin are sociopath's her ex husband I suspect was a psychopath. Her cats 'disappeared' when he decided they were a threat to their baby..He seemed to be a very plausible danger to her well being and she felt her life was in danger. It was.

    Having understanding or pity for a sociopath is good for you but only for you. It's acceptance and forgiveness on the highest level. Good for us to have it. But let's keep it to ourselves as expecting any meaning or reward for having it is not going to mean a thing to the sociopath, unless he or she can use it for gain.

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  36. I totally pity my ex sociopath. She ran into her worst possible nightmare. Me.

    She was a handful alright. "Perfect partner", passive aggressive I thought...sure I guess she was/is but that diagnosis I made only gave me a clue and threw me off.

    We maintain connection and in some sick crazy way a perfect match. I am very successful with an amazing life..Most people bore me to death and I've had to wonder if I too were a sociopath..as I am really really good at taking care of myself. I pity any who seek to hurt me and I'm deadly serious. I'm smart, focused and am frightening to my enemies..I am scaring myself as I write this!

    But back on topic. The more I learn about Sociopaths, much from this newly discovered site, the more I do have pity for them. How can you not? The more knowledge of yourself and your true core you have, the more pity or better said "compassion' you can and should have (if you survived without physical or severe abuse).

    I am lucky that I am so skilled at self defense. I 'won' against my sociopath and it's very very sad indeed. I feel sick at what I felt I had to do to her, yet have zero regrets for what I did and would do it again without a second thought.

    I know I'm not a sociopath but if I turned out to be, damn I'd be a great one!

    I just looked up the definition of "Pity"..and am surprised by the definition..quite a 'sociolathic' word...

    Don't we mean can we have compassion for the Sociopath? I know I do for mine. How can I not? She was my angel no matter what she did to prove me wrong!

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  37. ^^^ Oh, yay. Another delusional narcissist.

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  38. Yo! Mr. Pity...

    You are trying to justify something to the very people you are justifying, now do us a favor and go to lovefraud because we need a good first laugh of the year!

    PS: Get a new girlfreind, try craigslist, you might just find someone just like her, who knows, she might see you on there and become interested again...

    --Daft

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  39. Why pity is wasted on sociopaths, from the perspective of someone who is half sociopath and half empath. (I naturally feel strong empathy and moral emotions without trying, like an empath, but I can turn them off, like a sociopath.) The last person I dated was a SP.

    Pity is one of the empathetic emotions. It involves putting yourself in the others' shoes, imagining life as they experience it, and feeling sad. In an empathetic way, this makes you want to build them up as you would build yourself up, as if you yourself were the one with the sad life. You apply your resources to them.

    Empathetic emotions ONLY WORK when they are shared between two people. Empathetic emotions allow humans to achieve win-win situations, like in the famous game "The Prisoner's Dilemma." I feel life as you do, you feel life as I do, and we can naturally envision a cooperative, win-win situation in which both you and I are happy.

    When I dated my boyfriend, I felt strong empathetic emotions for him, especially after we bonded through time together and physical interaction. However, he did not feel them for me. The result was that two people were looking out for him. He was looking out for himself, and I was also looking out for him. And nobody was looking out for me.

    Therefore, pity is wasted on SPs because the whole point of pity, like other empathetic emotions, is to allow two (or more) people to achieve a win-win situation that might not otherwise be possible. Pity is wasted when it is applied to someone who does not capable of empathy, because a win-win situation will not be reached.

    Not only is pity wasted, it is also dangerous applied to a SP. At best, the pitier feels sad and does nothing. At worst, the pitier feels sad gives his or her resources to the pitied, to try to build them up. Therefore, pity for an SP can bleed the pitier of real resources (time, money, attention, mental bandwidth, etc.) because there is no reciprocity, and no win-win situation unless it happens by accident.

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  40. The blog is compelling and evokes empathy for the writer, which might lead some to feel pity. I think this is manipulative only if you believe that the “other” is responsible for what you feel.

    Is a sociopath worthy of pity? Do you still feed it if you know it’s going to bite you? Or do you let it starve?

    Pity that doesn’t lead to an act of compassion is just narcissistic wallowing. No one needs that. An act of compassion that expects tail wagging and hand-licking afterward is manipulation.

    - Zoe

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  41. ^ Dayum. Once again, good stuff Zoe.

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  42. Thank you Daniel.

    - Zoe

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  43. im just kind of a lurker but...am i the only one on earth without a "sociopathic ex?"

    and yes i do pity sociopaths.

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  44. This is obvious.

    "1 a : sympathetic sorrow for one suffering, distressed, or unhappy b : capacity to feel pity
    2 : something to be regretted "

    Really? A sociopath only seems able to be pitied when they get a headache from listening to you talk about your troubles and moral indignation about them. Lol.

    Also, how the hell did we get onto the idea that pity is somehow related to innocence? That was just absurd in all ways of the word.

    Now, asking if a sociopath is WORTHY of pity is another thing altogether. I think that's a dumb question. A sociopath is human just like everyone else but their emotions are very, very limited. So they are capable of 'suffering', but not to the full extent of the word. You'd have to decide for yourself if they deserve pity for their 'suffering'.

    Personally, I think, if you truly think a sociopath is a human, you should treat them like other humans and pity them in the appropriate situations. (Don't pity them in situations where they mentally and/or physically abuse you, for example. However, when they are genuinely suffering, you should pity them.)

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  45. Dr Stout sounds just like the type of cannibalistic ape that creates false emotion in order to escape the truth shedding light on her 'professional' activities.

    The head peepers are all the same, breaking the anti-social problem is to solve the state social programmings faults and not the imperfections of individual personality disorders and negative traits.

    Dont fret, anti-socialism is only healthy when you are exposed to non-state controlled facts and or refuse to be terrorised by the cannibalistic members of it.

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  46. I seem to have interpreted your question differently than many other people who've commented.

    Pity for what? is my question. Should people pity a sociopath's unhappiness if they're hurt? Should they pity a sociopath his inability to feel love like a normal person? Sure if those are things worth pitying in a non-sociopath.

    The moment that a sociopath stops being worth pitying is the moment they portray themselves as suffering from something that they are not suffering from. Are they making the case that they shouldn't be kicked out of college for cheating because their father died finals week and they weren't themselves? A real sob story I'm sure. If they care. Losing people close to me doesn't have the effect on me that people expect it to... and while I'll play along to avoid making people uncomfortable I don't feel like I deserve pity for it.. because I'm not suffering.

    Similarly, did a sociopath miss their final exam because they were hit by a car on the way to class? Then they deserve pity like any other person.

    Pity is deserved in proportion to suffering - or perhaps more accurately pity is normal as a response to suffering (I don't like the word 'deserve'). I don't see how a person being a sociopath factors into the issue particularly.

    Someone else had a more interesting question though it seemed: Should a sociopath be pitied for being at the top of a suspect list by virtue of their 'condition?' I'm not very used to pitying people... but I can't see why. They seem like a logical first place to start.

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  47. There's a recent interview with Martha Stout in connection with the article you link to. You can download or listen to it at this URL:

    http://jari.podbean.com/2010/11/03/interview-with-dr-martha-stout/

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  48. Anonymous got it right with:

    "The moment that a sociopath stops being worth pitying is the moment they portray themselves as suffering from something that they are not suffering from."

    I interpret this blog as an honest effort at self-understanding, not a ploy for pity. That makes it hard for me to understand why ME even raised the question about pity. I would think s/he would know by now that:
    1. pity is a human ethical mechanism for getting help to people who need help, and
    2. dishonesty about why and how you need help disqualifies you from pity--precisely so as to protect us from being exploited by false claims of need.

    kcadp@rocketmail.com

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  49. Her book is more manipulative than accurate. She uses scatter shots to appear to a wide range of audience. She uses science, religion, secularism, theism, socialism, capitalism etc. Much of it is mutually exclusive. Her choice of tactics is basically meant to fool the average empathy.

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  50. This whole blog is trying to paint the sociopath as some exquisitely complicated rare species victim. A boo ahoo ahoo hoo hoo hoo.

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  51. Every "type" plays victim.
    The sociopath definition is addressed by poorly trained people, unqualified to comment.
    The only people i will take notes from are neuroscientists, psychological scientists, behavioural neuroscientists...
    All of which find, whether they realise it or not, is that sociopath does not equal a manipulator.
    It is this simple: a sociopath lacks empathy and a strong emotional connection and/or response to his/her environment.
    Other traits MAY become evident, but harmful behaviour may never manifest...
    To be accurate and to fucking OWN any response about what they feel manipulation is, while retards try DESPERATELY to connect english context with their surroundings. Everyone uses behaviour to envoke an empathetic response in others, all behaviour and emotions are understood across the board. What is difficult for many, is the ability to place their own behaviour and their observations of others behaviour into a correct context, as they will attempt to project their own perspective onto the other person.
    Empaths, in my view, are potentially far more damaging to society, reaching conclusions based on "feelings" will have people come up with rediculous medicine, unsubstabtiated beliefs and poor descision making.
    Empaths seem negligent to me and fail to consider others, while assuming they "get" it, because the feeling make sense.
    Naturally they are not more dangerous, but as i have illuatrated, generalisations fail to consider a sufficient number of variables.
    A poorly trained and hostile person becomes that way due to poor practice and inappropriate experience.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree completely. As a sociopath of the misanthropic order, I find that neural-typicals have been far more cruel to me than any of our kind, including the psychopaths that absolutely lose it, could ever hope to do. We understand territory and rules. We understand fair warning and fair play. These are things that neural-typicals do not understand, in their mistaken belief that they have conquered the world. Observing neural-typicals in the wild, one is struck with a creature that ignorant of the consequences of their own behavior. A sociopath can also be ignorant of these things, and yet will not last long if they do not learn the tricks of navigating the minefield of life. Bellum Omnium Contra Omnes; Hobbes believed the State mitigated the war of all against all. Yet we sociopaths, who learn to live peacefully in society, see all its signs, those signs that the charmed neural-typicals must deny exist to get trough their lives.

      Delete
  52. In my opinion, the sociopath is attempting to liken understanding to pity. The two do not equate. For example, the entomologist may make a career out of understanding the vespid. It is a vespid's natural instinct, hard wired, to sting when agitated. However, if the vespid attempts to sting the entomologist, the entomologist swats the vespid until its gut fly out. The entomologist understands the reason the vespid tried to sting, but has no pity for the insect. Don't let the sociopath try to manipulate your understanding by trying to induce pity!

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  53. Here is my synopsis of this blog....

    Engage me, for I am bored! My narcissistic core needs to prove my cunningness to the world. Without your engagement, I have no opponent to distract me from myself. Without distraction, I am left to myself, a shell of a person unable to enjoy a mutually beneficial social interaction. Without distraction, I am left mostly left with feelings of pain and emptiness. It is my goal to make you understand me, and the best way to make you understand and pity me is to induce in you the same pain and emptiness that I suffer constantly. You are as despicable as I, but only much more blind to it. So I will enlighten you by bring as much pain into your world as I possibly can! Have pity on me, for pity is an extremely useful tool for my manipulations. But PLEASE. PLEASE engage me, for otherwise I am left to myself.

    -- Enlightenment

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    Replies
    1. i have felt this way, but i am not a sociopath.
      i am highly empathic and able to enjoy only mutually beneficial social interactions.
      i have been the victim of multiple sociopaths.
      i feel like i've been injected with a disease and no longer feel like myself.

      Delete
  54. The sociopath does not deserve pity... BECAUSE HE IS A SOCIOPATH!

    -- Enlightenment

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  55. DIE PSYCHOPATH, FUCKING DIE!

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  56. I'm sorry, is this really a blog for sociopaths? The internet, everybody!

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  57. Wow this is bizarre. It seems like both sociopaths and empaths share the same compulsion to feel superior over the other. My guess is god is laughing. I'm happy with my empath problems. I don't pity or judge sociopath any more than the rabbit judges the fox. I just get the hell out of the way. To all empaths: observe nature, it's the best way to stop getting victimized. To sociopath: I've seen other entities feed on you - you are not at the top of the food chain fellas.

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  58. I used to think I might have sociopathic tendencies, or maybe narcissistic, but then I realized that I like to use charm and wit not to my advantage or for true manipulation, but that I want to connect with everyone. I want to give someone that emotion they're lacking and in return be loved for it. I guess that is narcissistic, but is it really that bad? It's like some sort of evil genius empathy mixed with narcissism that was bore out of feeling like an odd duckling growing up.

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  59. Why should people pity sociopaths if sociopaths do not pity them?

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  60. "I sort of don't understand this argument, perhaps not surprisingly."

    I'm about 3 years late on this reply, stumbled upon this site after being tangled by a sociopath (undiagnosed).

    That argument simply means that if there is a devil, he will no doubt want people to pity him so that he can victimize people, because the devil doesn't care if as you as you believe it is a victim.

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  61. Here's a family that appears cultic in nature. Father is Michael Garritson. Mother is Linda Garritson. There are 14 children in family. All have become emotionally crippled by the continuous cultic socipathic behavior of the parents. Public records show Michael and Linda Garritson were involved in a case where a baby was killed. Wife Takes Blame at Trial in Boy's Death - Los Angeles Times
    articles.latimes.com/1985-03-28/local/me-29111_1_husbandMar 28, 1985 – Michael Garritson was charged with murder last August after his wife told police that she was out of the room when the child was injured."
    Yeas later, Mike Garritson is charged with animal cruelty, neglect and abuse. Then you find Linda Garritson had her nursing license revoked a few years after that, when she was caught on tape not properly caring for twins in her care. This is on line, public record: "google linda garritson lvn"
    Matter of the Petition to Revoke Case No. VN-2002-618 Against:
    LINDA SUE GARRITSON-HITT
    31246 Valley Center Road
    Valley Center, CA 92082
    Vocational Nurse License No.
    VN 134634
    On or about December 30, 1986, the Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric
    2 Technicians iss ued Vocation Nurse License No. VN 134634 to Linda Sue Garritson "On December 8,2006, the Board filed an Accusation against Respondent for gross
    negligence, incompetence, and other charges. Revoking the probation that was granted by the Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric Technicians in Case No . VN 2002-618 and imposing the disciplinary order that was stayed thereby revoking Vocational Nurse License No. VN J34634 issued to Linda Sue
    Garritson-Hitt;
    On or about October 8, 2002,
    while employed as a Licensed Vocational Nurse by SunPl us Home Care, Respondent was
    assigned to provide in home care for two siblings with muscular dystrophy, Sarah C. aged and Scott C. aged 12. Respondent reportedly had worked with the children for approximately three years when the relationship between her and the parents became strained. Linda Garritson claimed that the mother made accusation that her kids weren't getting proper care. Linda played victim. (Ironically, the mom's kids WERE in fact, NOT getting proper care but Linda does what all sociopaths living in a cultic world do, she plays victim while hurting others) That night, the parents videotaped the children with a Nanny-Cam. A
    19 subsequent review of the tape reflected that Respondent had not assessed the children,
    administered medication, nor performed the treatments as prescribed by their physician.
    Nonetheless, Respondent documented on their records that she hac! assessed the children, administered medication, or performed the treatments as prescribed by their physician Respondent is subject to disciplinary action under Code section 2878,
    1.6 subdivision (a), for unprofessional conduct, as defined by Code section 2878.5, subdivision (e), in that on or about October 8, 2002, while employed as a Licensed Vocational Nurse by SunPlus Home Care, Respondent falsified or made grossly incorrect, inconsistent, or unintelligible entries in patient and/or hospital records, as described in paragraphs 13 ancl 14 above. In pEuticular: Respondent falsely documented the nursing notes for Scott C. and
    Sarah C. at 2200 hours, 0200 hours, and 0600 hours to show that she had administered breathing treatments to both patients. In fact,she had not administered those treatments to either patient during her shift. Then you find Michael Garritson arrested in september 2012, after he's caught on tape physically abusing a severely autistic man. .Alleged Abusive Caregiver has Troubled Past | NBC 7 San Diego www.nbcsandiego.com/.../Alleged-Abusive-Caregiver-Michael-Garrit...Sep 20, 2012 – Michael Garritson, 61, was taped allegedly abusing a 23-year-old man with ... where an autistic man was abused -

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  62. The devil and sociopaths don't deserve pity because they are using it as a tool to manipulate you, not because they need actual help. For example, they'll tell you they want money to help pay for their kids brain cancer, and then use the money to go on vacation and let the child die if there ever was a child to begin with.

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  63. They don't deserve pity, because they hurt people and don't care. That is wrong IMHO

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. this is true. in the oldest days they would take you out to the city limits and stone you, in order to root out the evil from the community before it spreads. it's too late for us now, society is totally festering and the collective conscious is confused & not knowing what to do, ... i'm confused, but i do know that do-gooder pity is not the answer.

      Delete
  64. When it comes to pity and sociopaths, it's just a pity that their mother's didn't miscarry. That's all.

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  65. What on earth would you want pity for? To me pity and compassion are two different things, pity comes from a feeling of superiority. To pity someone is to believe that you are in some way better off than them, use pity? certainly. seek it out because one time you were on the internet and you realized that some of your personality traits matched up with a recognized disorder? Pfaw. Compassion on the other hand, actually I have never experienced something recognizable as compassion in another person. I suppose that is pretty useless then too.

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    Replies
    1. Most "normal" people would not want pity. But pity can let you off the hook if you've done wrong, gotten caught, and want to avoid responsibility. It may not be the most subtle ploy as far as strategies go, but it garnering pity might allow someone to continue their activities as if nothing happened.

      Delete
  66. Can't believe the obvious answer from May 10 and 20 took so long.
    As someone on the opposite end of the empathy spectrum, I can say that I gladly give understanding and compassion to sociopaths, even while resenting them for thinking it confirms my naivety and is used as justification for their ruining of me.

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  67. Sociopaths all use pity, some just use it in different ways. I just got away from one that I was room mates with for a little over a year. She would do all kinds of horrible things (not feed her pets, alienate friends over nothing and make them humiliate themselves to be welcomed back, cheat on her boyfriend, try to steal my things, not pay bills, leave literal molding garbage everywhere, throw drug parties all the time without warning, steal her mothers medication, bully people because 'they deserved it', intentionally get people to fight with her when she knew she would win in front of others, blatantly lie to my face) I could fill a page with everything she's done.

    When I would confront her about it, most of the time just asking why, she would first try to play it off. Either act like it was nothing and I was blowing it out of proportion or that what she did was funny or cool and I was being a tightwad. If I kept pushing she would use a pity play. You name it she's tried it. If I kept pushing she would turn it around and call me awful for not believing her and taking pity on her, not giving her a break. If I kept pushing after that she would try to reason her way out of it, try to sprinkle her pity play on top of it, all while starting to subtlety threaten me (mostly 'blurting' or telling me things that she think will scare me like my online passwords and such)

    I had to nope out of there so quick in the end my head spun.

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  68. First I'll add a definition of “pity” before I start and ruin the suspense this may hold- since I am under the impression that here lurk allot of intelligent people (socios or empaths) here it goes.
    Pitty= positive regret for another individuals state of being or quality of life, presupposing there is a consensus of acceptable and agreeable state of being generally observed in the behavior someone displays and the similarity to a “healthy subject” congruency of emotion thought and action... pretending is fine too but hey you only live once, over and over as another person each time.
    im laughing as I try to define this...

    The Morality and the Ethics one accepts are volitional to a degree, if one spends the time to examine all the factors responsible for one's dispositions and re examine ones own the value system one can determine if one wishes to change it or “change the environment” manipulate the environment to fit the value system(for emotional or idealistic reasons its all hedonistic, for ones own concept of pleasure) , this I feel is a choice for anyone, others accept it and others deny its existence and others use it. There is only other “Me's” in the world and Other “I's” who is this "You" to pity anything under the sun and for what pleasure outside pride and relief.
    I do believe that a state of psychopathy exists in which balance must also rule or else ... well the system has its way with balancing it.

    Systemics freak here, Id like to meet a psychopath one day in peaceful terms always, although they seem to be well adjusted to me :)

    ...I wrote allot more on the subject but I choose to keep it to my self.

    ReplyDelete

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