Sunday, November 9, 2014

Highly motivated

One of my relatives started a job as a teacher's assistant at a grammar school. She talked to me about how there are two students in the class that she believes are clearly attention deficit-disordered. Why? Because they don't pay attention in class. It's not that they're not smart, she says, because when she gets them to look at the particular paragraph or reading material they're studying, they can answer questions about it. I asked her why she thinks that means that they *can't* concentrate or focus on the material versus that they *won't*. She looked at me a little as if I was either being daft or difficult, making a distinction without a difference, in her mind. But I think it is often an assumption that people make in educational contexts, that if someone isn't doing something that we expect most people to be able to do, it must mean that they can't rather than they won't. Oddly, when it comes to behavioral things outside of that context, people frequently make the opposite conclusion -- that because someone isn't doing something that everyone else "ought" to be able to do, it must mean that they can but choose not to for some perverse reason.

It reminded me of this old comment:

There was a peer-reviewed article in "Social Cognition" where a study showed something that will surprise a few naysayers. Here's a quote from the author's abstract:

"When the others were described as in-group members, participants higher in psychopathy showed greater concern for those others. This indicates that the lack of concern for others produced by everyday psychopathy is due to a lack of motivation to care about others, rather than a lack of ability to do so."

Believe it or not, but high-functioning members can show concern for others. They just need a reason for it. Ironically, the study was conducted on university undergraduates (though in truth, it is common for research universities to use the student populace as guinea pigs).

In case anyone is interested, the article is called "Understanding Everyday Psychopathy: Shared Group Identity Leads to Increased Concern for Others among Undergraduates Higher in Psychopathy." by Arbuckle and Cunningham in the journal called Social Cognition (October 2012).

But here's the thing I thought about when talking to my relative the teacher's assistant -- do we fault children for not being motivated to learn any more or less than we fault them for a hardwired lack of ability to focus? They live in an economically disadvantaged area. They likely won't have the resources to do much of higher education. Or even if they did, there are people with college and advanced degrees that have lower paying jobs than their parents do. Why be motivated to learn about the different Chinese dynasties? If there is a reason to learn that, then surely the child could be convinced eventually to learn. Similarly, do we blame the sociopath who doesn't care enough to show concern for others if no one has ever shown him why he should care? Who is going to go to the trouble of trying to convince him?

112 comments:

  1. Teachers are trained that they have to be in control of the classroom. When a student doesn't want to do something because they're bored out of their minds or don't see any point to it, they often take it as a challenge to their authority.


    "...do we fault children for not being motivated to learn any more or less than we fault them for a hardwired lack of ability to focus?"

    Of course. It's *ALWAYS* the student's fault.

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  2. forgot to add...

    Just wait until your relative has to teach Common Core math.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, Damaged, old standards v. Common Core: A Side-by-Side Comparison of Math Expectations - http://excelined.org/common-core-toolkit/old-standards-v-common-core-a-side-by-side-comparison-of-math-expectations/

      Delete
    2. Yes, Damaged, old standards v. Common Core: A Side-by-Side Comparison of Math Expectations - http://excelined.org/common-core-toolkit/old-standards-v-common-core-a-side-by-side-comparison-of-math-expectations/

      Delete
    3. Damaged, I didn't mean to send the same reply twice.

      Delete
  3. One of the things i find extremely frustrating about empaths is their dependance on the concept of 'free-will' as a universal law. A friend of mine has a cat that misbehaves, pushing a vase off a shelf for example. My friend will say "She knows she's done something wrong, she knows - just look at her." The cat returns my stare blankly, then looks away, obviously bored.

    This kind of thing is always said with that air of absolute authority that the universe shouldn't dare contradict. It's a kind of insanity i can't even begin to understand.

    Similarly when people insist sociopaths are evil - because the sociopath has free will, that means they MUST have the same values of right and wrong and MUST choose to act the way we do, otherwise they have deliberately chosen to do something wrong. I think most empaths who claim to accept sociopaths do it by simply saying things like - "They're just a mindless robot, they don't have a choice" etc.

    What if being an empath is a personality disorder?

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      "What if being an empath is a personality disorder?"

      Get out the microscope...

      "S’io credesse che mia risposta fosse
      A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
      Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
      Ma perciocche giammai di questo fondo
      Non torno vivo alcun, s’i’odo il vero,
      Senza tema d’infamia ti rispondo."

      True, people are keen on insisting that sociopaths are evil, but no one is a mindless robot.

      Delete
    2. Anon@2:58, I agree with your first and second paragraphs, that the universe should not contradict. I am not entirely sure that some socios also have this attitude, esp ones that are deeply narcissistic too...

      About the third paragraph, what would you suggest would be a more accurate thought process for an empath who claims to accept sociopaths? Can you give some examples?

      Delete
    3. Haha true. I like that flip script. Empaths as having a disorder as well. There's gotta be middle ground in both.

      Delete
    4. Ambrose Bierce was way ahead of most people:

      "Love, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient."

      I don't recall an entry on empathy, but I expect he would have had some choice words there too -

      Delete
    5. HLHaller = I smell flatulence.
      Is that all you can do? No, you KNOW you CAN'T.
      Not here. This is not a game you can handle, not a part you can play.
      Failed.

      Delete
  4. Anon, I am confused. What is your point? Are you saying that sociopaths have free will and should be considered evil (i.e they won't adhere to society's norm) or are you saying they have no free will and should be accepted as they are (i.e. They can't adhere to society's norm)?

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  5. I have conceived them all by Immaculate Conception.

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  6. Saint Maria hahahahaha BITCH
    I love psychopaths! From a safe distance, of course.
    I am learning a lot more about myself as an empathy, what can be very annoying all this sensitivity. I don't feel I have much of a Free will, actually I feel very trapped by so much emotions, trying to take care of everyone, including the psychos. I get stuck!
    Honestly I wouldn't mind developing some level of psychopathy to add in my personality.

    "why she thinks that means that they *can't* concentrate or focus on the material versus that they *won't*"

    this is fucking brilliant. sometimes we empaths can be very dictatorial, one sided and sometimes blinded. i don't see free will in this.

    Saint Maria mum SAVE ME!

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      You sound angry. Why all the rage?

      Delete
    2. Anonymous, being an empath is about standing in someone else's shoes. Obviously, you cannot do that.

      Being an empath is the opposite of spiritual meanness (no inflated ego, pride and name calling), which you're displaying, quite loudly and clearly. It's having the capacity to understand that every war is both won and lost.

      Right, so where is the empath in YOU?

      Delete
    3. "Obviously, you cannot do that." and a number of other comments...

      why are you making blanket judgements of other people and claiming to know the truth, and further that it is obvious to everyone else?

      Delete
    4. I wish I had an answer.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous,

      You love psychopaths?

      Liar, liar...

      Delete
    6. oooops. you got me! It is not true that I love them. I kind of wish I did, to feel more connected to my high power to God, whatever. I think you love a psychopath till you figure it out who he is.

      So are psychopaths unlovable?!

      Delete
    7. Stay smart, this is another example of making a blanket judgement about another person and claiming it as some truth. Do you have any other way of operating or is that it?

      Delete
    8. wait a minute Stay Smart!
      I actually DO LOVE them. yes I do. I love them to the point of been able to let them go. I love them to the point of understanding them. I love them to the point of feel this RAGE and ANGER that I feel, because of what they did to me. and I am taking the responsibility and taking care of that. It is not magic. It is hard work and LOVE.

      So I myself will reply to my question.
      Are psychopaths unlovable.
      They can be loved, yes. But they are the ones not capable of receiving or giving love.

      So yes I love them. But as a human being and a higher need for survival, I keep my distance, just as i will do to snakes. but I love them, in the space they hold themselves into it! that is it!

      I AM NOT A LIAR

      Delete
    9. "wait a minute Stay Smart!"

      I'm still here. And by the way, thanks for amusing me.

      Delete
    10. haha that's why I love you IDIOT!

      you amuse me too

      Delete
    11. mutual masturbation

      Delete
    12. why i always have a feeling of deep "disgust" after interacting with sociopaths?! i wanna vomit
      that is probably empathy. Gosh. I am probably a bit of a maso to come here at all. Good bye.
      Santa Maria bless us mum

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    13. "why i always have a feeling of deep "disgust" after interacting with sociopaths?! i wanna vomit
      that is probably empathy."

      Said the QUACKING empath.

      Delete
    14. "haha that's why I love you IDIOT!"

      All I heard was QUACK (fake).

      Delete
    15. "that is probably empathy." it's not empathy. it's getting drawn and/or inviting games you do not want to play -- that's why you feel sick later. Easy solution, don't play those games.

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    16. My children. My children. Calm the fuck down. Mutual masturbation will put you all at ease. Blessings.

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    17. Saint Maria,

      No masturbation here. Capisci?

      Delete
    18. Anonymous November 9, 2014 at 10:40 AM
      "mutual masturbation"

      Keep such thoughts to yourself. Not here.

      Delete
  7. Look at it from their point of view. We are all created different my child. My truth is not necessarily their truth, and visa versa. so many angles to one's own personality. Understand it. Take on what you can tolerate, but never look down on someone else; unless of course they try to eat you alive for dinner. Then put on the whole armor of Saint Maria and conquer! May Saint Maria bless you forever child.

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  8. Why do you call Saint Maria BITCH my child? Such language is not useful for you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Saint Maria,

      Anonymous appears to be a raging "empath." I thought they were good at balancing their emotions. Supposedly...

      Delete
  9. “Free will” is one of those concepts that makes no sense. Neuroscience indicates that our nervous system and body make decisions and take actions at a level below our “conscious” awareness. Our “ego” or “self” seems to be a construct our evolution created.

    I refer you to THE ATHEIST'S GUIDE TO REALITY by Alex Rosenberg, chair of philosophy department at Duke University. In Chapter 7 of the book he pretty much disposes of the idea that we have free will.

    As he says on page 147: “Science provides clear-cut answers . . . there is no free will, there is no mind distinct from the brain, there is no free will, there is no mind distinct from the brain, there is no soul, no self, no person that supposedly inhabits your body, that endures over its life span, and that even might outlast it. So, introspection must be wrong.”

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    Replies
    1. Sounds as retarded as radical behaviorists.

      Delete
    2. Rad, just came across this article today. Thoughts? http://www.naturalnews.com/047545_life_after_death_scientific_study_near_experience.html

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    3. It's a bit lengthy, but Sam Harris is a pretty good speaker -

      If there is no free will, I have a co-worker that's in for some rough days -

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

      Delete
    4. That was a really good talk by Ben Stiller....thanks for sharing :)

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    5. I was disappointed that he didn't break out Blue Steel -

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    6. Stench-emotions and Steel-emotions ("the acumen of a ...") strike and fail.
      Again.

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    7. uh, what anon? Is this sociopath humor? I guess I have too many emos cuz I don't get it.

      Delete
    8. Just don't ask the booooooring one who fondles the pommels of his biscotti. This should become a saying, as in, "Stop fondling the pommels of your biscotti and ___________" (you can complete that with whatever you want, as in whatever you find suitable for the situation).
      I'm just trying to make him sound a bit more entertaining for a change.
      The GREAT conundrum of "can't vs. "won't." PURE ENNUI. Old, real old HLHaller. But then again, HLHaller likes discussing insulting subjects having to do with Romanian orphanages, so I hope he chokes on those fondled biscotti and his tea.

      Delete
    9. Dr. Ginger, I feel miffed. Not a good sign.

      Delete
    10. I think someone went off their meds...

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    11. HLHaller,

      It is you who went off his meds, and it shows (I mean, fondling the pommels of your knives?) based on your comments. That, and you're quite obvious in those comments. I don't believe that I need to elaborate on that.

      Delete
    12. Also HLHaller, I was being sarcastic when I wrote that I felt miffed and it wasn't a good sign. You really need to keep some things in check, including the content of your comments on here. If you don't respect other people, those people will not respect you in return. Truth.

      Delete
  10. I bought and read Rosenberg's book several years ago. I communicated with him by email. I don't even know if he is still alive. What he said is probably true, regardless. but I am going to go check.

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  11. Rosenberg seems to still be kicking. In another chapter of his book he explains how evolution has caused empathy.

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    Replies
    1. Radical Agnostic,

      A certain quacking empath here needs to read this particular chapter. All I hear from him is "quack, quack, quack..."

      Delete
    2. Evolution has caused a lot of other things, too, Radical Agnostic.
      Do me a favor and re-read the comments for this post. Also, if you haven't been keeping up with this post to date, read the new ones.

      Also, and this is because I'm pretty new here and I wasn't familiar with the terminology, when I called that person a quack, I meant a fake empath as in a fake holistic empath sounding like a quack (like a fake holistic "doctor"). This article explains things better, and while I have nothing against empaths as described in this article http://healing.about.com/cs/empathic/a/uc_empathtraits.htm, this is truly what I meant when I called that person a quacking, fake empath, having read that he identified himself as an empath. At that particular time, I didn't know that he meant empath as in being a non-sociopath. I thought beyond that, since in the real world, people call and refer to an empath in the way described in the article I included in this comment.

      Delete
  12. I dont have a clear idea on how to tell if someone won't do something or can't do it -- unless it is something obvious like a physical handicap or cognitive one.

    I think it can also be hard for some people to resolve for themselves whether they can't do something or won't do it. There's also the possibility of self-deception so the belief that one can't may be false, for example...

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    Replies
    1. Some things are obvious, DoctorSciFi...

      Delete
    2. Hi Doc,

      I spent the day in my son's class recently. One of his class mates is already being "tracked" (this is pre-K mind you). This kid plays with The Unholy Spawn, so I got to know him and his mom (who was also there). He has some very real impulse control issues (his dad is a multi-tour Veteran), but no meanness at all. Just a lot of energy he needs help focusing and controlling.

      And here's where I get a bit triggered and I start fondling the pommels of my knives - my son told me recently that the teacher somehow suggested that my son shouldn't play with this boy because he is a "bad kid."

      He is energetic and enthusiastic (and he is a big kid for his age), but he isn't destructive - he wants to rope other kids into his game, but he isn't a bully - he sells it. It's just that his volume knob is stuck at 11.

      I think the "can't vs. won't" question is not only valid, but important. How one chooses to deal with the child and the outcome will depend on the answer and if that answer is correct or not. If the teacher would take the time to ask that question she might not be setting this kid up for a rough time.

      Delete
    3. HLHaller, a pleasure to see you on here again. I can see how this could get to you -- I had some experiences reminiscent of yours when my son was a child...

      My view at the moment is that for children, the distinction between "won't" and "can't" is often misplaced or even meaningless. One reason is that the brain is not fully developed, another is that the sense of will is also not developed. there are probably other reasons too...

      Making a judgemental evaluation "bad kid" and imposing that evaluation onto your son of another boy ... well that's another story -- teaching children to judge each other and themselves as people rather than judge actions, and attempting to isolate this boy, for her own motives and the erroneous idea that she will better keep discipline in her class this way.

      Of course kids who are judged 'bad' will pick up on that too. So it's a mess with that teacher.

      Do you feel like saying anything to her about it? I some times held back because I didn't want anything taken out on my son.

      Then there's the fact that she will have 40 years of 30 students or so, more than 1000 kids.

      Delete
    4. On a different note, I recently reread the life story of Marsha Lineham as reported in the New York Times -- how she developed a successful treatment for out-of-control suicidal BPD patients through insights she had about this horrendous condition herself.

      I wonder if also in patients like these a distinction between can't and won't is meaningful? or to what extent it is. Being out-of-control is an absence of will, and without will there is no "won't"...

      I'm curious as to what you or Dr. Ginger and others might think. I find this topic perplexing altogether.

      Delete
    5. HLHaller, before you begin fondling the pommels of your knives, which are most likely a couple of biscotti for your tea, you're greatly underestimating this woman.

      Delete
    6. Also, HLHaller, a caring teacher would never set up her students for a rough time. This is your own thinking, not the teacher's thinking, so the right answer depends on the teacher's mind and actions, not yours, as well as on the way you teach your son to act outside the home (not exactly stellar as of this date, so his marks are quite low). After all, you are the one "fondling the pommels of your knives"....
      But, yeah, stick to your biscotti, and keep all of that in check.

      Delete
    7. My experience in working with people with BPD is initially there is a lot of resistance to change. It takes some time, and you have to be really patient with that population. I don’t think people understand the intensity in the borderline mind unless they have it. I think when people learn about the “fear of abandonment/fear of rejection” aspect of it, they think borderlines just need to be hugged and coddled. What they don’t understand is there is a paradoxical reaction in the brain, and sometimes nurturance, kindness, or compassion can actually trigger an episode, and make them feel feelings of intense rage or hate towards you. I’ve worked with a few people that got triggered in to a borderline episode, and did the whole, I hate you blah blah blah stuff, and I said you know what I hate you too! Unethical? Most psychologists would argue yes, but the people calmed down immediately because of the paradoxical reaction.

      Delete
    8. We talked about it after they calmed down, and I explained what I did, and they said you know what? It worked!

      Delete
    9. ...but kids, don't try this at home :):):)

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    10. DoctorSciFi,

      "I'm curious as to what you or Dr. Ginger and others might think. I find this topic perplexing altogether."

      You know that expression, "Curiosity killed the cat?"
      Just saying.

      Delete
    11. Dr. Ginger, that's an amazing observation. I had no idea.

      Delete
    12. "Unethical? Most psychologists would argue yes, but the people calmed down immediately because of the paradoxical reaction."

      Yes, unethical. This would never happen in the real world.

      Delete
    13. Hi Doc,

      I've been here, just didn't have anything to add to the Morbid Polar's project planning - other folks had it pretty well covered so I just enjoyed the read. Also I post less on the weekend - spending time with The Spawn.

      I didn't say anything to the teacher - that's a loosing battle. I suppose I could make trouble for her, but that wouldn't really help that kid either and may make things harder for my kid.

      No, what I've done instead is befriended the parents - they can use some perspective and they seem happy for the friendship. And they seem like interesting folks - and the boys get along. That seemed...cleaner.

      I can understand a teacher making the choices she made - she's only got so much time and energy for each kid and that kid is taking more than the others making her job harder. Where I fault her is in projecting value judgments - she made some comments about his behavior in front of me, so I find my kids story credible.

      As for teachers being all heart of gold - that's just plain nonsense. Some are and some aren't. I dated an elementary school teach for a short while that would give her kids candy and soda on Friday afternoons just before the parents would pick them up - it was her way of getting back at them.

      I can agree that their brains are still forming and the can't/won't question isn't always easy. The way I differentiate is by watching - in this case, the kids was reacting to things in the class enthusiastically. It wasn't a matter of him sneaking off to cause trouble. Watching him play with the other kids, his interactions were "appropriate" in nature ("hey guys, this is lots more fun!!!), just louder and bigger than the other kids.

      In this case, I see a matter of "can't" rather than "won't." The kid genuinely seems to want to conform, but he is impulsive. A kid who "won't" will be more deliberate - looks for ways to be difficult.

      @Dr. G - wow! That's takes some balls (for many reasons) - I don't know if that tactic would work with me. However, "pattern breaks" are a tactic I've used in the past for managing conflict (usually at work, but not always) - it's handy. But, I'm not sure I would ever go there with someone having a BPD meltdown - your garden variety jerk, sure...

      I didn't get all BPD on her -

      Delete
    14. Whoops! That last line snuck through - I thought I deleted it.

      Delete
    15. "@Dr. G - wow! That's takes some balls (for many reasons)"I'm chuckling right now...no, but you're right. It's very risky, but you know us, we take risks, and how can you help the field grow if you don't take some risks, and do some experimenting. The fact is, just working with the borderline population in and of itself is high risk. I don't care how much borderline advocates whine and cry about it, I tell it like it is. There's the potential for violence, threats, stalking...I've endured it all with this population.

      Delete
    16. Sorry, I have my own issues with some of these bpd advocates. If what they do works, then great, I hope it helps things, but having personal experience with this stuff, I hate listening to them sugar quote shit. Lemme tell you how one of my relationships started with a borderline. "I want to torture all psychologists to death". First thing out of her mouth. The other therapist was too scared of her because she threatened to kill her, and she had to call the cops.

      Delete
    17. HLHaller,

      "Where I fault her is in projecting value judgments..."

      This sort of thinking seems to be a pattern with you. Try looking outside the box, especially when it comes to people's minds and behavior. It'll fix this issue for you. People are different, and don't expect them to conform when you dislike something about them. Also, you can't judge anyone based on mere assumptions.

      Delete
    18. Hi SS,

      I'm not sure I see this as a problem (I'm not even sure how it is that you think you can make that assessment of me).

      Sure people are different. Some I agree with. Some I don't. Some I make an effort to engage. Some I don't. Some are judged on assumptions (maybe not always fairly) and some are judged on facts/observations. I don't see this as a problem. I see this as life.

      Delete
    19. Hi Dr. G.

      No need to be sorry as far as I'm concerned (see my comment above - it's all good). I agree with you - well meaning advocates off all sorts are annoying to me. What really matters is the outcomes.

      I have to giggle - in my own engineer way, I get your reply to the notion of it taking "balls." In a chemical plant I once worked in, an important analyzer went bad (it was a temporary set up - long story) and there was this explosion of chatter over the radio with folks thinking the whole thing was about to blow. It didn't make sense to me, so I calmly walked right under the reactor in question and verified that the analyzer as indeed out of order. I switched to the back up and all was good. People said I had balls - not really in this case (and yes, there was a very real degree of triggering involved - I'm telling the story as "an adult").

      Delete
    20. HLHaller,

      Fact: this is a site on the internet. However, whatever happens on it is not factual {I'm talking about certain things that you have brought up}, so don't even consider taking such things as assumptions. No judgment whatsoever, because it's absolutely pointless. It'll only drive you crazy. Do you understand me so far?
      This is really not what you seem to view as life, because life is part of reality. So, you're doing so based on what you read and see on the internet? Come on, you know better than that, right?

      Try not to see it as a problem. All you can do is help, be positive, don't expect anyone to conform, which means having an open mind, and think outside the box. Then all of these assumptions and judgments will no longer become a pattern of thinking and communication. An open mind leads to a healthy mind.

      Delete
    21. Stay Smart:

      Yep, it's the internet alright, but I have no idea what "certain things" you are referring to. So, no, I don't understand you.

      I might suggest however, that you ask your doctor is Haloperidol is right for you...

      Delete
    22. HLHaller November 10, 2014 at 6:04 PM

      "Whoops! That last line snuck through - I thought I deleted it."

      HLHaller November 10, 2014 at 6:01 PM

      "I didn't get all BPD on her -"

      HLHaller, you just went all BPD on me, in this post. Look, you're being defensive for no reason at all. Also, considering what you wrote above and the history of your posts, you're projecting.

      Delete
    23. HLHaller,

      I would like to ask why you believe that I should be taking Haloperidol? Neither am I taking any drugs, nor do I need to take any. Now, before you reply and if you do, think things through before doing so, without becoming defensive and without offending me. Try to come up with a rational response. Read through my posts on this site and really back up what you would like to say to me. I have lots of information from your posts to back up what I wrote in my last comment. Here you go, and these are just a few of them:

      HLHallerNovember 6, 2014 at 5:36 PM
      Hi Doc,

      That's when I've been known to start acting out - when I am not in control any more. And I split (in more than one way, to resurrect an old hippy term).

      ...(knives out and venom dripping from my fangs) before setting off the so called "pyrotechnics." And sometimes I choose not to... It's progress...for me at least...

      HLHallerNovember 7, 2014 at 4:43 AM
      Hi Dr's (it's a...pair of docs! *rim shot*)

      @Doc SciFi: Like a lot of the stories, I've always been different. In my mid 20's (after a particularly hard bender) I went into therapy and got my impulsiveness under control (more or less). Then earlier this year I Googled "spoiled child syndrome" and the next day I bought M.E.'s book, which brought me here. Along the way I realized that BPD fits me.

      HLHallerNovember 7, 2014 at 5:48 PM
      I just sat on my balls - does that make me hot? (over my shoulder, "hey Ma! Daddy's got some wiggles to get out!!! *grin*)

      HLHallerNovember 10, 2014 at 5:19 AM
      Hi Doc,

      ...And here's where I get a bit triggered and I start fondling the pommels of my knives...

      HLHallerNovember 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM
      It's a bit lengthy, but Sam Harris is a pretty good speaker -

      If there is no free will, I have a co-worker that's in for some rough days -

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

      HLHallerNovember 9, 2014 at 7:46 PM
      Ambrose Bierce was way ahead of most people:

      "Love, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient."

      I don't recall an entry on empathy, but I expect he would have had some choice words there too -

      HLHallerNovember 11, 2014 at 9:13 PM
      I should have said, "...convincing people that something that they might be doing be treated."

      HLHallerNovember 11, 2014 at 5:38 PM
      Hi RA,

      By the by - Quackallujeh - LOL! Love it!

      Delete
    24. "Fact: this is a site on the internet. However, whatever happens on it is not factual {I'm talking about certain things that you have brought up}, so don't even consider taking such things as assumptions. No judgment whatsoever, because it's absolutely pointless. It'll only drive you crazy. Do you understand me so far?"

      This paragraph still doesn't make any sense to me. Lots of quotes - I do like to hear myself talk - but I still don't see what those quotes have to do with what you said.

      The haloperidol was a joke and if you this is getting "all BPD," friend, you are on the wrong forum.

      Delete
    25. HLHaller,

      Haloperidol is a serious drug; hence, your "joke" about it was not funny.

      Delete
    26. Damn! And I was gonna use that bit at Open Mic night tonight too…thanks for the heads up.

      How about: Olanzapine? Maybe a little Chlorpromazine to take the edge off?

      I know: I can do a riff on a Tom Lehrer song:

      There’s Aripiprazole, Clozapine, Thioridazine, and Sertindole

      And, Quetiapine and Loxapine and and Perospirone and Haloperidol

      And Ziprasidone, Zotepine, Zuclopenthixol, and Droperidol

      And Molindone, Fluphenazine, Mesoridazine, Perphenazine

      Delete
    27. HLHaller, a bit of advice, you can poison yourself, but don't ever poison your audience at Open Mic night, because "you're losing it."

      This is what you sound like to your audience:

      “When we're poisoning pigeons in the park
      When they see us coming
      The birdies all try and hide
      But they {don’t} go for peanuts
      When coated with cyanide
      In the Audobon Society
      With our games
      They call it impiety
      And lack of propriety
      And quite a variety of unpleasant names

      But it's not against any religion
      To want to dispose of a pigeon

      And we'll poison the pigeons in the park
      And maybe we'll do in a squirrel or two
      While we're poisoning pigeons in the park

      My pulse will be quickenin'
      With each drop of strychnine
      We feed to a pigeon
      It just takes a smidgin
      To poison a pigeon in the park”

      Delete
    28. You're catching on...

      Delete
    29. Also HLHaller,

      "Hooray for New Math,
      New-hoo-hoo Math!
      It won't do you a bit of good to review math.
      It's so simple,
      So very simple,
      That only a child can do it!"

      Delete
  13. "that is probably empathy." it's not empathy. it's getting drawn and/or inviting games you do not want to play -- that's why you feel sick later. Easy solution, don't play those games."

    Right, I can see the quacking pattern.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Replies
    1. Talking about motivation, would you or someone you know interested in collaborating for a documentary on the lives of sociopaths?

      Delete
    2. Morbid Polar, I bet you the one fondling the pummels of his knives would be interested.

      Delete
    3. Last night I finished watching the end of the movie AMERICAN PSYCHO. I went to bed saying to myself, "I am know I am not a sociopath, but perhaps I should cut back on a bit on the sociopath movies for a bit. I doubt, at 70 years of age, I could pull anything seriously malevolent off and get away with it. The end of AMERICAN PSYCHO was pretty funny, when Patrick Bateman tries to tell his attorney (first on the phone and then second in person) that he is a mass murderer, and his attorney refuses to believe him and then the attorney is reduced to saying, "That's not funny."

      Delete
    4. I was watching Deadly Women last night, and normally I luv that show, but I saw three back to back where they killed kids which I though got a little weird.

      Delete
    5. Radical Agnostic November 9, 2014 at 2:17 PM

      "Quackallujeh"

      Exactly.

      Delete
    6. I've watched too many crime shows, cold case files, CSI, forensic files, etc, so for now, I've delayed watching American Psycho, I need a comedy break... RADICAL: what's the difference of being a socio now than when you were younger?

      Delete
    7. Radical Agnostic,

      True, you are not a sociopath.

      Delete
    8. Morbid Polar,

      Radical Agnostic is not a sociopath. Your wrong assumption based on blanket or "value" judgments (I've been seeing these words a lot on this site, so they're putting things into perspective in revealing ways) are quite off. However, Radical Agnostic does have a great sense of humor.

      Delete
    9. @ Stay Smart: I thought he called himself "quasi socio" in a previous post, maybe he's not, part of the discussion on this blog has been who is and who isn't, anyway, are you?

      Delete
  15. Dr. Ginger,

    Really, you like seeing kids getting killed? I mean, THREE shows of that, back to back? Just saying...

    ReplyDelete
  16. Dr. Ginger, a very morbid way to spend so much of your time on, don't you think?

    ReplyDelete
  17. "...but kids, don't try this at home :):):)"

    Gray matter. Use it, kid.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's fun to watch a site full of trolls try to troll the site...oh and I don't mean that in a derogatory way....I'm a total troll :P

      Delete
    2. a news report from Dr. Ginger. Ah well, a non in sociopathworld prefers to pick and choose what to ignore. It's nice that you can see things from all angles.

      Delete
  18. Morbid Polar,

    I haven't seen Radical Agnostic's post about being a quasi sociopath.

    No, I am not a sociopath. I'm an accepting person, I like helping people, I am open-minded, and I think out of the box.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cool beans, then why do you visit this enchanted world of gothic fairies?

      Delete
    2. Morbid Polar,

      I would like to clarify one thing having to do with the way I PHRASED my reply. I didn't mean to say that some sociopaths don't help people, that some of them do not accept people, that some sociopaths are not open-minded, and that some of them do not think out of the box. In my response, I was referring to the way that I am without talking about or implying anything about others. I hope there wasn't any confusion there.

      As to why I visit this site, like I said before, I am reading through and understanding some things.

      Delete
    3. Morbid Polar,

      Also in relation to this, I believe that being a sociopath can't possibly be defined, since the old way of thinking and identification is no longer valid. So many years have passed and people still apply the same outdated mode of thinking, looking to fill up a checklist. Hence, a person is not just a list of characteristics that society assigns for him or her, and as I have been maintaining, not all sociopaths are the same. Some of them are quite brilliant, without hurting or harming others.

      Delete
    4. Okidoki, thanks for responding, I agree with you in that it's not as easy as checking on a list of traits (not symptoms), although I do think that all sociopaths hurt people, you know why? because EVERYBODY hurts people intentionally or not, I've been hurt more deeply by an empath than by a sociopath, but was hurt nonetheless. One of my hypothesis is that we all have sociopathic traits...

      Delete
  19. Anonymous November 9, 2014 at 8:25 AM

    “I don't feel I have much of a Free will, actually I feel very trapped by so much emotions, trying to take care of everyone, including the psychos. I get stuck!”

    Anonymous,

    While I won't modify this comment and address it to you, because this is where it started, here is what I just sent to Radical Agnostic. I thought that you called yourself an empath as people refer to empaths in the real world.

    Also, and this is because I'm pretty new here and I wasn't familiar with the terminology, when I called that person a quack, I meant a fake empath as in a fake holistic empath sounding like a quack (like a fake holistic "doctor"). This article explains things better, and while I have nothing against empaths as described in this article http://healing.about.com/cs/empathic/a/uc_empathtraits.htm, this is truly what I meant when I called that person a quacking, fake empath, having read that he identified himself as an empath. At that particular time, I didn't know that he meant empath as in being a non-sociopath. I thought beyond that, since in the real world, people call and refer to an empath in the way described in the article I included in this comment.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Morbid Polar,

    You're right, getting hurt is never a good thing, intentional or unintentional. If you don't mind my asking, what was the nature of your relationship, and how did you deal with the hurt?

    I'm curious about your hypothesis. What traits would you consider as more prevalent among people?

    ReplyDelete
  21. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Predictable reply from the predictable HLHaller. I'm always ahead.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Real humans need to warned and made aware of the sociopath. Sociopaths are not humans, but rather "It's", things. They are nothing more than cardboard cutouts that lie, destroy and manipulate. They are disgusting "things". One of God's mistakes, (not that they care).

    ReplyDelete

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