Tuesday, June 12, 2012

Thank you, sociopaths! (?)

I was having a conversation with a sociopath who is currently in the military about the relatively higher proportion of sociopaths in the military versus the general population.  The reader asked "What part do sociopaths play in the world? What's our niche?" and suggested: "In times of catastrophe, it's the socios that step up and lead until stability is restored, because at that point, we're the only ones who -can- do it, 9 times out of 10."

There are quite a few documented instances of sociopaths being exceptional in socially positive ways.  There is professor Jim Fallon his ideas about psychopaths doing the "dirty work" and the "good work" that others can't or won't do as well.   Joseph Newman believes that psychopaths are perhaps more inclined to be impulsively helpful than empaths. Also this post comparing heroes with sociopaths.

The reader continued about why sociopaths may be doing pro-social things, even when it doesn't involve the occasional "heroic" act:

In my experience, both personal and talking to others, sociopaths and psychopaths do seemingly random nice things for people more often than those seen as empathetic. If you walk the Path, you naturally want a leg up on those around you. You want to know what's going on, how to react, and you want people to defend you when someone tries to ruin your day. The best way to get that leverage is for people to like you and think you have their best interests at heart. Eventually, doing those small (but often meaningful) kindnesses becomes something the Path cares about, even if for no other reason than a flexible personality and unwillingness to change to suit others make it a routine.

149 comments:

  1. Very interesting, M.E. Thank you.
    Just because sociopaths are different, does not mean they are all bad. I've been told that sociopaths see right through people's bullshit and don't generally tolerate it (unless it's in their best interests to ignore it). They are the ultimate bullshit detectors.
    Being called on it can make people see themselves in a whole new light and inspire them to make some changes in their behaviour.

    Since sociopaths don't care much about fitting in with the crowd, they really can be the 'good samaritan' when everyone else is too busy trying to not rock the boat.

    An example: I was 18 and walking on a busy
    street in the city. There was a woman sitting on the curb. She was acting drunk, was calling out and trying to grab onto people, begging for help. Everyone walked around her, they did not want to get involved. I watched her for about 30 seconds. She was well dressed and well groomed. So I thought, 'that's a bit strange'. As I was about to walk up to her to help, she started swaying and nearly rolled off the sidewalk into the road. Still nobody moved. People just kept on going. So I got her into a safe position, called an ambulance and told them there was possibly a diabetic woman about to go into a coma.
    They got there just in time to give her a good dose of glucagon. One more minute and she would have been in serious trouble. A lot of 'normal' people were willing to just let her lie there or fall in front of a car.
    If somebody had just stopped and given her something sweet 10 minutes before that, there would have been no problems. So wasn't it lucky for her that sociopaths don't blindly follow the herd?

    Doing random nice things will get you seen as a nice, caring person. Then, when you play a little, you are more likely to get away with it, since you can really play up the 'misunderstood nice girl/guy' card.

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    1. Very true. It's assumed that we only act on the 'evil' impulses, because there's nothing to stop us ...

      Somebody on the forum put it across really well; something like "Is this a good idea? Seems like a good idea. What the hell." My impression is that a sociopath usually is quicker to judge what is the 'right' thing to do (most effective, most appropriate etc) although their end goal tends to be more short term and not necessarily in line with what the herd would choose. Your response to this person's need was the right thing to do at that point, a purely practical reaction.

      Sooner or later it has to average out so we end up doing some good :)

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    2. Exactly, spot on.

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    3. @GE Great comment, I especially agree with the bullshit detector. I have a narcissist friend, and seem to be the only person that knows him and realizes that under that veneer of self-confidence he's very insecure. Though as time passes, some other people are starting to notice it too.

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    4. Oh for fuck’s sake, green eyes, you’re not a sociopath at all. You’re a kind woman with morals and values, and definitely a conscience you’re frequently listening to. You’ve proven this more than once in your posts. Repeatedly implying that you’re a sociopath shows you’re either trying unnecessarily hard to seem cool around here, or incapable of assessing your own personality.

      I’d be very interested in any personal experiences UKan might decide to share regarding today’s topic, though.

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    5. Maybe I'm not. It doesn't bother me. I'm not 'trying to be cool', I simply identify with sociopaths more than any others.
      Maybe I am incapable of proper self diagnosis.

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    6. It shouldn’t bother you. I didn’t see anybody here telling you what I just did, and I think self delusion is wasted potential.

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    7. I don't think you are a sociopath, Green Eyes. I think you grew up with a very weak mother and you despise weakness. You built up an edifice of great strength to be as different as you could from her.

      I am not saying that you are NOT strong. However, you are not a sociopath, imo. You have empathy and concern for others. You are just a hard ass, in common parlance.

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    8. To piggy back on my own statement :P
      I think some people come here trying to ACT like sociopaths by being assholes, when the true sociopaths do not act that way( in the majority of cases) The people who were born a sociopath or who got it through abuse, don't wear it as a badge of "asshole". They are trying to come to terms with what it means and what it doesn't mean for their lives.

      The wannabes think being a sociopath is coming on SW and harassing people. The true sociopaths know that it is much more than a cheap suit you try on.

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    9. Green Eyes, I think that, from what I've seen in the forum, you and ME are right: a sociopath may well act impulsively to do good (witness all the help that newcomers can be given in discerning what is going on with them). I'm not sure that it's seeing through the bullshit so much as it is seeing what is "interesting" or "amazing" or attention grabbing in some other way and then acting on it. For you, there was this woman sitting on the curb, that was odd (attention grabbing), there was the impulse to investigate, and then the (impulsive) opportunity to help.

      I wonder if a sociopath (and you can certainly answer this better than I) can become habituated to doing good? There are three possible responses to the woman on the curb:
      1 indifference/annoyance,
      2 interest to see what happens but no involvement
      3 interest and involvement.

      If the third is chosen the involvement can be to the benefit or the detriment of the woman. Can the habit be to chose for the benefit of the other with the understanding that pro-social behavior is ultimately beneficial to the actor him/herself?

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    10. Actually, Johnny, being spontaneously moved to help somebody in distress is regarded by some specialists (Daniel Goleman, Paul Ekman) as a form of empathy: “empathic concern” or “compassionate empathy”. Sociopaths aren’t capable of it.

      short written explanation

      video, if you don't feel like reading

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    11. Most people are incapable of accurate self-diagnosis.

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    12. There is an immediate stimulation when you come to the aid of someone in an dangerous situation.
      I think some types of people chase that sensation.

      For me, I am depressive. It feels great to jump OUT of myself for a dose of adrenaline. Helping people in distress feeds that need.

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    13. Ted Bundy jumped into a lake to save the life of a drowning child. He then carried the newspaper clipping in his wallet to show people what a wonderful person he is. However, I doubt he stood and watched the drowning child flailing as he calculated that future benefit. I think he probably just saw danger/excitement and couldn't help being part of it. The kid's life saved was a benefit to society.


      @ Green Eyes

      I don't think you're a sociopath. I've seen some empathy from you to some forum posters. Or perhaps a you're good at faking a bedside manner.

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    14. @ anon 7:30

      Reminds me of Nicholas Cage in Bringing Out The Dead. I used to know someone who went to Nicaragua during the 80's along with countless other leftie, bean-sprout eating vegans. There they did some shit like take turns on watch with a sub-machine gun helping defend the coffee plantations of those good people oppressed by the multi-nationals. This person told me that during deep and meaningful heart-to-hearts around the campfire that most of those western freedom fighters confessed to being severely depressed and had come there to fight seeking suicide by proxy.

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    15. add'l to 7:30

      And if it makes you feel "emotional" and less detached/numb/dead for a few minutes, or stimulates your empathy for yourself (Monica) that is a plus.

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    16. ofc socipath's aren't bad every one on lovefraud knows that

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    17. OK, so maybe I'm not a sociopath. The label has never defined my behaviour. A rose by any other name..
      I like the way I am and I see no reason to change. I love charming, manipulating and gaslighting people. It's the best fun. I was raised to always be nice, to always help, or else. Helping her got my family off my back for a little while, so well worth it. I don't generally give a damn about people, but still feel drawn to do good things sometimes.
      I'll just have fun under the label of empathic bitch, then :)

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    18. Ellicit that is very cool for me to know. Thank you.

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    19. In my own personal experience I've done "good" things simply to see if my analysis of the situation was accurate. For instance, did you help the woman because she needed help, or simply to see if you were right in that she was diabetic?

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  2. If a socio does a nice thing, but there is nobody around that knows them to see it, are they seen as a nice,caring person?

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    1. They'll see themselves as a nice, caring person (briefly) ~

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    2. I still think it is related to stimulation. Extreme acts in an ordinary day are to be remembered for a lot of reasons but being touted a hero in public isn't the reason you did it. It's a fffffabulous plus for the reputation, but that's a happy accident.

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  3. lol, aguess I'm on a right track :) , I was wondering why am I willing to help others when I have spare time for it.

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  4. Something isn't right, I relate to sociopathy too much (at being good, at being bad, blah blah blah) :(

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    1. Stick with the adorable fluffy avatar, and nobody will care that your actual personality is inconsistent :)

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    2. I mean, that I simply feel too predictable :)

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  5. Are you sure you're not just reading these things and making it into a self -fulfilling prophesy? Simply seeing those aspects of your personality that fit the bill and ignoring the rest?

    Like a girl who gets told by a psychic that she will meet the man of her dreams on the weekend. So she gets dolled up, goes out and accepts a date from a man she normally wouldn't give the time of day, because, hey, you never know. Then ends up seeing only what she wants to see in the man, so he essentially becomes her ideal man.

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    1. I want to punch you in your damn face so badly. Stfu faker.

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    2. Haven, I asked this because I had a chat about this a couple of days ago with a friend who's a mental health nurse. When you agree with everything, something is not right. I love M.E. and can identify with a lot he has to say, but nowhere near all of it.

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    3. Well by writing all of it I ment to basic ideas, It's not like I relate to sentences. Example I really can relate to current blog post, because I do good things from time to time and I was confused why I do them, because sometimes I am more helpful then others, according to others. Like Dexter and the donuts, It's silly, that character don't have to do it, but he does.
      Hey, so could you chat again and find more info about it, GE? :)
      I'm curious if a person with a problem like that should experience it more than once in more/other areas too, because I haven't :)

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  6. I had this idea too. Actually it's a posibility, hovewer, I am unable to relate with other disorders and stuff. I simply observe myself and, well I might not be a sociopath, but I definitely am close to it. The only thing that I am ignoring here is criminal activity, because I never had a chance to participate in it. And it's hard to tell if my shalow emotions are more shalow than others, but I certainly am cold, if compared to others.
    Also, if I would make things fit me, I think that I would stay in a "normal person's" label or be a douche/narc.
    But I really fit most of symptoms and relate to many things here, so maybe I am a sociopath, just like I think I am.
    Yeah, it isn't easy to be sure here :)

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    1. What is your age range, Mee?

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    2. You've never had a chance to participate in criminal activity? Do you live in a convent?

      Crime can be created pretty much anywhere.

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    3. What info could my age range give?
      I had no reason to create crime yet, well I do silly things sometimes but I don't think that they count as a crime. And I learned that acting bad won't give me enough, well it depends on how much I can gain and, like I said, I never had a chance to participate in something big, probably I never will :)

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    4. If you look for trouble its never difficult to find it, because it will come find you.

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    5. "because I never had a chance to participate in it"

      What a joke. Yeah like you've never been inside a store? (Shoplifting) Or had any situation where someone challenged you and a physical fight became an option. You must have not been a teenager either because someone would have undoubtably tried to involve you in some sort of (probably petty) crime. My guess is you are self-deceived and have participated in plenty of petty crime, but think you need to go out and kill someone or commit armed robbery or GTA to have committed a crime. Supposedly 80% of people shoplift as some point in their life, and your gonna seriously say "I'm sociopath with a 100% non-involvement in crime" this sounds very delusional and unrealistic, sounds typical "tell 'em what they wanna here, say something that sounds good and never mind the validity of it" socio-banter. You also sound like you lack self-insight, not very confident in committing to saying a single definite thing about yourself, just a lotta maybes. You sound dumb and pathetic, and I'm pathetic for wasting my time with this but I'll justify it as part of my resource allocation toward "social studies" and pretend like I learned something. Have a nice day! :D

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    6. Why would I risk my safety to steal a candy from a store?
      I sound dumb, because?
      Could you define "crime", what counts, what doesn't?

      I sound unsure, because I try to use people here to give me ansvers or raise new questions. And yes, if I would be sure 100%, I wouldn't bother writting anything here :)

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    7. Well I was sure, but now I started to think that being sure about being a sociopath is self-deceiving. And this might be just another thing I do to keep myself away from being bored :/

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    8. Why would I risk my safety to steal a candy from a store?
      I sound dumb, because?

      You have GOT to be kidding... You think shoplifting is dangerous? What, you think someone is gonna beat you up because you steal an item worth a few dollars? Yeah, right. Most if not all stores have no chase policies so they won't pursue you if you don't obey the "sir can you please come with me" request, never mind attack you! Shoplifting is such an easy thing its almost hard to get caught. Why would you risk your safety? If you have to ask such a dumb question I have to ask what the hell makes you think your a sociopath if you're so concerned about your safety, you sound like a weak person. Crime? You have the internet and therefore access to a dictionary, why not look it up? I'll give ya' a hint, it has to do with illegal actions punishable by law, shit that can get you arrested. You sound unsure because you are self deceived, probably an empty person with identity issues and your way to cope is by pretending you are some evil badass, bestowing upon yourself whatever badge of a label you decide to be prestigious. And you wonder why you sound dumb...

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    9. Honestly, for me a shop is a place there I come to buy stuff, so I don't steal, because it simply serves a different purpose for me.
      I don't think that I have identy issues, I accidently found this disorder and, well it fits my behaviour for most things (no criminal activity), I don't need to cope, because I feel okay and I don't consider myself an evil badass:)

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    10. Since you're wasting your time on me anyway, could you calm down a little and start being more useful and informative? :)

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  7. Where you from Alia? I might know you.

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  8. Why wouldn't a Sociopath be capable of/interested in doing things that make others lives better? That doesn't have to come from having a conscience or from love but rather just self-interest. Getting more from honey than vinegar. Furthermore with sociopathy we are talking about a continuum - not an all or none situation. You don't have to be a comic book serial killer to be an authentic sociopath-

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  9. i was in a public park on a sunny day and there were lots of other people lying around. as always my eyes had scouted around to evaluate possible threats and there were 3 young (~16yo) guys nearby being a bit raucous. they were in less good shape and i can handle myself, and there was a definite ringleader that i knew i would only have to flatten if needed and the other 2 would back off.
    2 gay guys walked through the park holding hands. the ringleader shouted loudly "get out of this park you faggots". i stood up and faced him and shouted "i don't mind you being a biggot in the privacy of your own home but keep it out of this public park".
    several other guys nearby also stood up and faced the 3 boys - in a gratifying "i'm spartacus" moment i didn't expect. of course the boys shut up and soon left. i got laid plenty that night with the girl i was in the park with. that was my aim, and there's the rub: if i don't benefit from the good deed i don't do it. being flat affect means doing a good deed often costs me very little but the rewards are often great.

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    1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that everyone does something good only to benefit from it =\ , also in some situations helping others is the only right option.
      Nice story, though.

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    2. Good point Mee!

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  10. The reason why you are here, convinced that the lack of some inner basic human mechanism has singled you out from the crowd, is the superstitious belief in the old eighteen century idea, absolutely out of place in our days, that humans are born with an “innate moral sense” that guides them through life. It’s high time you forgo this misconception. There’s no hard moral core within anybody; moral is built with the same bricks that any other human ability, and it can be torn down even easier than it can be built up.

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    1. absolutely out of place in our days, that humans are born with an “innate moral sense” that guides them through life

      Well, jose. I'm not sure you're correct about that. I've just started reading Descartes' Error - that's a book about Neurobiology and behaviour, fyi - and it appears that damage to the pre-frontal cortex can completely remove a person's moral sense, leaving intact all other functions like language, memory, motor skills etc. In other words: leaving behind the same person just minus the moral sense. Would you care to comment on that, jose?

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    2. Ellicit: José thinks there’s no such thing as moral sense, even though it’s evident that, externally acquired and/or naturally developed (most likely both), it’s normally present in most people. Scientists like Haidt, Hauser, Greene and others conducted neuroimaging and psychological experiments which provided substantial neurobiological and behavioral evidence in support of this. Not to mention that Phineas Gage was only one of many cases that displayed an altered moral sense after brain trauma or tumors.

      José also thinks that Kant was the first to throw doubt on concepts like good and evil, even though moral relativism and even denial of moral knowledge were brought up by philosophers since antiquity (the skeptic Sextus Empiricus is one that comes to mind).

      On a side note, I’m sure the book you’re reading won’t disappoint you.

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    3. *had been brought up [...] since antiquity

      Also, Ellicit, don't you find that José and Stav are similar in many ways? They just spew stuff all over the place but seem unable to focus on a proper conversation.

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    4. Definitely. Jose has even come close to espousing pempathy lately. I'm looking forward to the inevitable implosion.

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  11. This article is another one of those silly "sociopaths are in effect nicer, more altruistic, and have better morals than normal people" ones.

    Ridiculous. Why would a sociopath want to convince themselves of this? Why would they care? What's the point?

    "Look we are good people, too! And we don't even have to try because it comes more naturally to us than others!"

    Seriously, bah.

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    1. Mass manipulation via sympathetic charm.

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  12. Have I done random good deeds? Sure. I wouldnt go to the extent of saying sociopaths can be depended on by society to do dirty work for them.

    I gave a twenty to a homeless guy when we were walking to the car because my friend pulled a random song out of bis arse and told him to sing it. I was going to ignore him but this guy put everything into singing that song so I stopped closing my car door and stepped back out and gave that man something for making me laugh.

    One time I was coming back from a party in a crime infested abandoned part of the city I was hustling in. I made what I thought was a lot of money back then. This homeless guy came up and asked me for money to go buy him some smack. I thought, now thats the mostnhonest thing I heard all night. I hooked him up.

    When I was a youth I caused chaos on a large scale. I got involved in political struggle. However, my constant goal was to start riots and blow shite up. When I first got involved they had me feeding homeless with donated food. Boring. Several months later I influenced the group to steal food from places or extort the managers into donating to us. If they didn't donate we would constantly break windows and come inside dressed in a suit and dump glue all over their meat products that were in the open. Eventually they would give in. I started giving food to the homeless with the intention of bringing them to political rallies as my own instrument to start riots. They turned out to be to docile, so I turned my attention towards youth. We ended up using the homeless as human shields.

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    1. After a while I had a group of young hooligans and gang members that would cause ruckus any rally they went to. At first people cheered us on since we protected them from police brutality. However, we started showing up at peace rallies with children and elderly there and I would have someone in the crowd throw a bottle at a cops head to make them attack the crowd. At first people thought that the cops were just randomly attacking peaceful demonstrators but soon they figured out that we were provoking them. After a while we would show up and people feared the fact we were there. They would plead with us not to cause trouble.

      We did still have admirers though. A union had us cause havoc on the ports during a strike. People who wanted to make a point always had us there. When I was arrested on charges related to the struggle I had a lot of support, but there was a faction against supporting me at all. They thought I was a trouble maker and loose cannon.

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    2. This is all really long, but I wanted to make a point. Sociopaths don't just go around impulsively doing good things for the sake of good. If anything good comes of something they've done its a byproduct of their entertainment.

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    3. Ukan you do have some good stories sometimes.

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    4. Interesting posts, UKan.

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    5. "If anything good comes of something they've done its a byproduct of their entertainment."

      I agree, but then again, virtually everything I do is for my entertainment/pleasure.

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  13. No worries, still working on the bill fold holder from Canada. And 7 of the regulars in here that I know of, have had the PCLR done, and scored over 30.

    Food for though, Jose

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  14. Hello all! I have been a silent reader for a little while now. wondering what some opinions in the room are of my personality. I know this is not the place lol, but I think it will be interesting to hear what you bloggers have to say. I am directionally challenged, not just a little bit a lot. plus I do not know how to read a map nor use a compass. I generally stop and ask for directions and still get lost anyway. I'm worse when someone is in the car because then I get sideracked - perhaps I have ADD?

    I don’t have an edit button nor do I have an inside voice. I am not great at remembering names. I am regularly late. Not on purpose. I do have the best intentions. But I often forget about the red lights, city traffic, road conditions, etc…you get the idea.
    I am scared of the dark, sharks and mice…no idea why…not a neurosis…but a fear nevertheless.

    I love kids. There is something innately endearing about knowing that their inherent innocence won’t last forever. Can't imagine my life without them. I speak and write in acronyms....perhaps I think I'm cool.

    I like smart people…book or street, take your pick…someone that has an opinion but appreciates that I have one of my own. I like T-shirts, great jeans, inexpensive flip-flops, I have a thing for boots, red wine, cooking without a recipe, running, my families idiosyncrasies make me laugh, and singing poorly (I must have been a struggling rock star in a past life).

    *closes eyes tightly*

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    1. Do you like pina coladas?

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    2. Heh UKan I thought the same thing.

      I'm sure there must be someone else in the world who appreciates the joy of expensive flip flops. So hot.

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    4. I think it's worse than you imagined. I'm afraid you're a 16 year old girl. I'm so sorry.

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    5. You sound like you're a cunt

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    6. Your correct - you are ADD.

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    7. Lisa

      I'm curious, what are your thoughts on the bloggers
      replies? Be honest

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    8. Honestly sociopaths are just evil people. That's it it's simple their gonna do whatever the Hell they want without giving a fuck they lie and deceive and all that shit because they have no conscience it's really easy to understand they are basically the biggest assholes you get in life with the huge egos and they don't learn shit that's why they act like legit little kids I mean in my damn opinion their emotionally AND mentally retarded because they don't understand emotions and blah blah that's why their compared to people with aspergers syndrome

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  15. Thank you M.E. I had to take a hiatus from the site and ironically everything I've learned since pertains directly to this article, that I randomly peeked at today. I can say with confidence now, I am a "good" high functioning Sociopath INTJ high IQ female. I've had a personal growth explosion and its changed who I am.

    Let me shed a little light..
    This is how monsters are made.
    Highly sensitive children are often misunderstood and rejected at large, effecting them deeply. High sensitivity and emotions are linked. This is why Sociopaths are often genius. It takes sensitivity and emotions to provide the memory and rapid learning that we quickly developed to survive. We watch, like birds of prey, learning everything we can - indirectly to protect our highly sensitive selves. There would be no need for these mechanisms should we not have a weak spot ourselves. This is why we often attack it in others. We resent it. Personally I'm jealous of the fact that there are people who lead whole, charmed lives. To my rational mind this doesn't make sense. Our insecurity and envy drives us to parasite the "normal" people. We want to escape into their world to run from our living hell. When we "love" our victims- there is a hidden element of love deeeeep down in our psyche, which we are often not aware. We were mistreated by the world and what we want is someone "safe" - so that our need to be loved would have the potential of being met. We create these narcissistic facades to compensate for the shame of feeling unlovable and rejected. What we forget is that, for most of us, we were not born like this. We were made. The disorder that has come from our brilliant personalities is tragic. On some level we know this and will occasionally do secret acts of kindness, even if it goes against the nature of our incredibly complex defense mechanisms. Thats why its a secret. But it makes the "human" in us feel good. Its like taking back control. What happens to most unborn sociopaths is that we have to shut our emotions down at some point in our lives. Its a survival thing. This is why "feely" people make us sick. We become pragmatic and cynical and recognize structures and patterns to concur to keep from being bored. We secretly master great things as high functioning sociopaths to prove our true value against our narcissism. ....

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    1. It took another High Functioning Sociopath for me to see all of this. We detected each other online and confirmed great questions. He is also an INTJ and the only reason we did not initially destroy each other is because of the great respect we had for one another's power. For both of us, it was agonizing to be so transparent and understood. Fucking vulnerable. But, in looking into each other we understood ourselves and I think I better understand the world because of him. For us, we allow ourselves to feel what its like to be victims. This is why I protect the vulnerable people and will destroy narcissists. I'm fighting an inner battle outside my mind. This is not to say I'm an angel. I have high standards and great shame for the wicked things I've done. This is why I can be callous. If I truly didn't care about others, I would have no need to be. Now that I know why I am like I am, I know I'm not all that different. I'm not a monster or a machine, I'm a very pure empath. Only such something with so much good could develop so much potential for evil- which I have. For me now, its about finding a balance. I can happily? report that my emotions are starting to grow back. Its hard and it hurts but I'm taking this healing one day at a time. Trying to be patient with myself. I owe, great, credit to Sociopath World for being an outlet for me in some of my darkest most brutally honest days. Its to your credit that I had the opportunity to set my shame aside and learn.

      You are all free to disagree with my above post. Challenging things is in our nature and I welcome you to do what you feel you need to do. Its all about progress, ya know? That is just my story. I hope it was helpful. <3

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    2. Grey
      I will never meet you or know you, beyond here. However, you have touched me with your courageous spirit. I will be better for having known you, if that knowing is only hearing your words.
      Thank you, Grey.

      With Love,

      A Friend

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    3. This is amazing, a wonderful example about how and why people who have studied psychopaths and have much experience with them say they still get taken. That sounded really great, but too contrived and too good to be true. I've heard this sort of thing from my father about a thousand times, and he often seems to even believe it, but at the end of the day its just a well-practiced tale. This is a stock story, its the typical "I've struggled but I've overcome, I was sick but I healed myself. I have finally detoxed, I am cleansed, I am pure once again, I have seen the error of my ways and I have repented! I am forgiven! I have redeemed my soul!" There are many variants of this story and it very often has an emotional and sympathy provoking nature as well as a grandiose tinting. Many times there is a "I have suffered because I was better than others" aspect to it. Yes yes, this is all very much standard procedure. I'm interested in ukan's take on this, I bet he has a great version of this story he can share with us. That was an okay version of the story, but not great. Some points to work on: too many assumptions and too grandiose, also too faulty. Sociopaths have very bad memory in truth, they often remember things incorrectly, sociopaths exploit memory heavily, both their own and that of others, they seem particularly vulnerable to false memories which I'm sure is related to pathological lying. It is also too open, although this is a blog and there is anonymity, in real life this would make you seem like too much of an open book and I would personally make the connection between sociopaths and the use of emotionally charged language that doesn't mean anything to them. When you actually feel depressed it is much MUCH harder if not impossible to talk about it, but when its an excuse and a facade then its very easy to talk about it in a seemingly insightful and eloquent manner. Your version of the story would pass for most people, but I find it incredibly suspect and very cliche, like I said, I've heard it a couple thousand times already and its just too familiar, so this would not be very good to use on someone who has a lot of experience with being let down by socios and is also realistic and accepting about the truth as to how and what these sociopathic individuals are.

      Now lets hear ukan's version! Heck, everyone throw their version down and maybe lord ME of the blog can even make a blog about it and throw down their version! I'm not a socio myself so I don't have my own version of this story to share, sorry to disappoint :p

      Delete
    4. You are just jealous because you want to throw shit on anything good.

      Delete
    5. So you're a female version of myself. I for a moment considered I was unique, guess I was wrong. Although, I haven't experienced the personal growth and the return of other feelings, which I doubt I ever will.
      Also, "The Lucifer effect" .

      Delete
    6. WHO would want to hear UKan's view when he has had not had an epiphany like this. That is plain stupid.

      Delete
    7. I think its a great example of a narcissist at his finest. The whole thing grey wrote was riddled with shame

      Delete
    8. Freakin UKan. I want to wring your neck sometimes. This is what I think. I am one person, one opinion.

      I think the key to any of our "disorders", however you want to label them, is shame.

      The Narc can't deal with his shame. The socio throws his away. This may be all well and good, for the sociopath, short term. However, when you throw the shame away, you get the many resulting sociopath traits such as shallow emotions etc.

      There is no free lunch when you throw away shame.
      Grey's feeling her humanity is the START to her becoming human i.e feeling EVERYTHING. Shame is one part, only, but a necessary part.

      Go Grey <3

      Delete
    9. Monica you are a gullible and pathetic lickspittle with a strong projection-based bias that severely hinders your ability to understand psychological subjects, you don't know the things you think you know, because they are untrue. You make a fool of yourself every day which is fine for the most part but then it becomes an unnecessary impedimenta to those coming to this blog to gain insight into the more esoteric side of psychology. Your pollyanna "everyone is a good person deep down, and I TRULY believe that! (which makes it automatically true)" attitude is completely disgusting.

      Delete
    10. You are correct that this is a stock story. I'm almost pissed with its simplicity and cliche-ness. I've objectively torn it to bits to understand it myself. I guess its just a reflection of how compounded things can become. Everything starts out small and snowballs. I would NEVER expect someone to take such a story to heart. I know that I could not, until I lived it myself. That is why I submitted it on here. For people to test, and see what they could learn from it. And Ukan, you are right. It is narcissism. As described above. I'm a healing narcissist. There's actually no shame in that. I'm feeling more connected to people than ever, because I understand myself, which helps to understand others. The differences between some people is our capacity for damage. This does not make us good, or bad, just wired different. People who are more sensitive just experience things stronger and are therefore more vulnerable to being damaged. Emotional damage is the driving force behind personality disorders.

      Delete
    11. So pure a sociopath and an empath? Mmmkay.

      It would be honest if you didn't try to justify your shame by calling it sociopathy. That makes this whole thing a lie. To yourself.

      You think using the word sociopathy makes you special. Lies.

      Delete
    12. And to anon 11:20, I'm not exactly "repented" or "healed" or whatever. To be totally honest with you, my life was simpler before being shut down. My feelings make me feel weak and vulnerable and uncomfortable. I'm still very cautious about what I do because they are so fragile. I don't feel fabulous right now, I'll tell you that. I've got ups and downs and I'm continuing to stabilize. That is fucking reality.

      Delete
    13. Medusa, the point of this whole thing is that I'm NOT special. Think about it.

      Delete
    14. How convenient that you promote shame monica when your life has become a living testament to it.

      Delete
    15. Yes, UKan, my life has been overwhelmed with shame, such that I HAD to learn about it, if I were to dig myself out. I don't promote shame, Ukan. One must deal with shame in a healthy way or it will dictate one's life, unconsciously.

      Delete
    16. The other thing Grey said that I have just experienced is this. One must have empathy for oneself, if one is to have empathy for others. Also, the degree of empathy one has for oneself, will DICTATE the degree of empathy one has for others. It is this simple. People may want to complicate it, but it is as simple as this one paragraph.

      Delete
    17. Shame is a good thing to live without.

      You can't have empathy for yourself. Empathy is something experienced for another person.

      Delete
    18. You are 100% wrong, Ukan in my opinion, in my experience and in my studies.

      You cannot throw shame away without having adverse effects.

      All PD's are probably rooted in shame: the mismanagement of shame in some way or form. The particular way, manner or form in which shame is mishandled is the make-up of that particular PD.

      Healthy people have a healthy level of shame, not none.

      Delete
    19. Sociopaths have little shame. Its not rooted in the personality disorder at all. And as far as your experience goes, you of all people can't lecture anyone on the management of shame.

      Delete
    20. I can talk about shame as I have a Mal narc mother who threw away her shame and projected it on me. My life has been a singular pursuit to get rid of it. I may add that I am doing just this, but the pain is awful, not for pussies. However, I am having good success. You like to measure things by success, Ukan.

      Delete
    21. Yes and Im still waiting on yours.

      Delete
    22. It would be great to live without shame, wouldn't it? Funny thing- no body can! Unless you were born without that capacity. Being shameless is an unconscious choice.

      And thank you Monica. Your support is appreciated. You seem to be the one regular person I don't continually piss off.. So go you!

      Delete
    23. UKan. You can ask Monica about her success when she's beaten you to it.

      Delete
    24. Thank you, Grey :)

      Delete
  16. Is being callous, violent, ruthless, a “dirty work” someone has to do? It sounds like another pill of self delusion, I’m afraid. Sometimes you have to be violent, callous or ruthless, circumstances may demand it from you, and you may give it try and see if you are up to it, as you can do with so many other dimensions of your personality. There is a long and recorded human experience to prove that people can acquire the necessary callousness through experience, and the same happens with the exercise of violence or the ability to put scruples aside. Most people can get the knack of the trade after some time; it will take them longer or shorter depending on their genetic predisposition, but most of them will reach an acceptable level of the required heartlessness and will use it efficiently. You learn vice as you learn virtue, and you can forget them both very fast if circumstances make it necessary. We love to invent destinies for us but usually this only works when you look back through a sufficient distance.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wise words, jose. If a man stares into a glass of chocolate milk long enough, the glass of chocolate milk may stare back into him.

      Delete
    2. LOL cocoa bean

      Delete
    3. Jose talking about self-delusion, oh lad.

      Delete
  17. I wonder if you'd understand your own writing if you looked back in a day or two. Here you go:

    "We love to invent destinies for us
    but usually this only works
    when you look back through a sufficient distance."

    What the hell is that, man?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Its lying to yourself and saying that the past was meant to be, it was all specific and predetermined, its about thinking "how the hell did I get here?" and then you review your life and your choices and begin to think that your current circumstances, the eventual outcome, was/is the only option from the very beginning. Jose is obviously a wannabe wisdom spewing junkie with no shame, but he is a great deal more insightful than the average poster on this blog. I wonder if some of the users here have difficulty understanding him because of psychopathic language defects which limit their capacity to comprehend his style of speech. I have recognized a pattern with sociopathic individuals condemning the words of wise men, or alleged wise men, either as a result of their lack of ability to understand or simply to challenge someone they deem as being more powerful than them, a way to steal the spotlight.

      Delete
    2. There's nothing difficult about anything jose writes. Its trite nonsense or basic ideas written in excessive verbiage to seem wiser than what it is.

      Delete
    3. Mmmmmr. Javier's cadence is pleasant and poetic and yours, Ukan, is direct and concise. It's a matter of style. Some people like to listen to all kinds of music. Why can't I have the two of you?! *woof*

      Delete
    4. Fake Monica but a good fake. Kudos If you fake me, just don't make me a ho.

      Delete
    5. I will do my best but best isn;t always good enough.

      Delete
  18. 1st
    time my limp is gone my eye isn't lazy no more
    and i lost a ton of weight
    no i have to fake all that to make my pittyplay work (((

    ReplyDelete
  19. ""In times of catastrophe, it's the socios that step up and lead until stability is restored, because at that point, we're the only ones who -can- do it, 9 times out of 10.":

    And 9 times out of 10 its a socio that created the catastrophe! My god are you people so self deceived and delusional! You are not evil, you are defective and dysfunctional, and you exploit that, thinking that you are more advanced and superior creatures simply because you learned to take advantage of a disability. Com'on now, some of us who study you creatures are waiting for you to catch up, and gain some real insight about yourselves. Do you really think we haven't begun to recognize the patterns? You create the problem, then you sell yourself as the solution! Woohoo! Look at me! I'm both the problem AND the solution! Talk about retarded, lol. So hopeless, so tragically and comically hopeless.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Creating a problem to become a solution for is an art. Perfecting that will give you endless opportunities.

      Delete
    2. Either ME started this blog as nothing more than a part of their socio-promoting agenda and they are intentionally lying about the "useful" qualities of sociopaths, or they aren't a sociopath and they're just a self-deceived narcissist. Or maybe sociopaths are successful narcissists and psychopaths are something more distant.

      Delete
    3. That reminds me a situation. It was a long time ago, when I was in kindergarten. It was a hot and sunny day, so we were kept outside the building. We were playing with our precious toys and then I decided to steal one small part of a toy from other kid, because it could be used on my toy too. So I did it. Since it was a new toy, the poor kid started looking for the missing part. Later I realised that he started to suspect me, so I quickly hid the piece of toy in tall grass and "found" it. Since then he considered me a good friend.
      I used to steal stuff while visiting people (it had to be something interesting, new to attract me). Once a friend visited me and found his stuff, so he shouted that I stoled it. Then I realised that i would be in trouble if my parents would find it out. Well I fooled that friend, because anyone could have that things. I should add that I didn't felt any pleasure from stealing it was more like "I stole it because I wanted it, because it seemed nice and useful and the true owner didn't guarded it good enough". Later I learned to manipulate other kids while trading stuff and convincing them that they should give me 5 figures for 1 I had and so on (primary school). Later stealing become popular among us in school, so I stole a few toys, but mostly I guarded mine and convinced other kids to steal something from others just to see what happens. Later I realised that I can't use stolen toys in school where we played with them, becouse they can be recognized so I stopped stealing (and I had enough toys myself).
      All in all I stopped stealing because I got bored of it, wasnt able to find anything I would like to steal, realised that it is a dangerous activity and I shouldn't do it, and I stoped playing toys.
      So this was some honest, naked truth about my early days. And now I really don't commit any crimes, lol :D
      I have everything I need :/
      P.s. I went to my childhood memories, because, as they say, they are very informative.

      Delete
    4. Thanks Mee. I like to learn a little about you.

      Delete
    5. Well I opened up here before, some information was written just to fuck with peoples heads but the facts are true :)
      And don't be shy, I am able to answer questions sometimes :)

      Delete
    6. I've just realised you're a kid. That is relevant because your brain doesn't even finish developing until you're out of your teens. Stavraki posted some info in the forum on how to develop empathy if you're inclined.

      Delete
    7. Well I read that disorders can be spot in childhood (but It's hard to tell because a child can just be misbehaving) and in teens (especially 15-16) and I passed these periods. I'm not sure if I need empathy, since I haven't developed it before.
      I'm young as young, but not as a kid :)
      Also, so how possible it is for me to have this disorder (even sociopaths were young, lol) or should I write it on my somewhy still developing personality and wait a couple years and come here later? I think that I should stay here, because this place gives info about right and wrong so I'm less likely to get in trouble :)

      Delete
    8. Being a kid also means that you are under more control (teachers, parents) so you are less likely to commit crime, think about it, Mee.

      Even if you are a sociopath, it doesn't mean that you can't make yourself be a good person.

      Delete
    9. Bollocks. I committed more variety of crimes younger than I have older. I was all over the place. Being a kid doesn't mean fuck all if you got the will to take on the world.

      Delete
    10. One of the diagnostic criteria is having a conduct disorder or history of truancy and trouble by (I think) 12. If you're over 16 and haven't been doing crazy shit already I think you're lucky and don't have a disorder. Maybe you aren't entirely neurotypical either. You don't have to decide if it hasn't been decided for you already.

      Delete
    11. Prepare yourselves for a long post, because this answer finding is starting to bore me and I feel that I finaly am close to sth. It will be honest and so on.
      Before I begin my stories I should clarify that when I was writting about being crime free I ment right now, or for a year or two. Well sometimes I do silly things, but seriously, not all crimes are worth to be labeled as ones (yeah I consider murder, robbery, rape and sth. similar to be a crime, if you get something via manipulation you are simply succesful).
      One year I was spending my holidays @ grandparents. I can't recall how it happened, but I ended up in a situation where I was loosing arguments and my words were useless, so I started to defend my interests by using physical harm (silly, I now). I kept defending my opinion like that for a week or so and later I noticed that this wasn't working too. So I stopped doing it and applied more manipulation on my grandparents. It was more succesful, so I stayed on that road.
      I lied when I could benefit from it, so yeah, I am a liar. But I rarely lied for fun, it was a way to get something more when entertainment for me.

      Once I convinced my few clasmates that we have to make Molotovs cocktail and blow it up, well just for fun. I still don't know how am I able to control people like that, well charm or sociopathic powers (lol) maybe. Well obviously we failed at making it, failure was boring, so I realised that we won't be able to do it and stopped this project.

      Well my mother complained that I changed in a bad way since being 12-14 (can't recall). I always thought that it was because she labeled me as a teenager and started to use it against me. I thought that because I haven't felt different (well I was taller, wiser, but I was still the same apathic and so on me I used to be). Maybe she was lying just to be able to control me better, I'm not sure.

      And its only a few stories I could share, maybe later :)

      What I want to say is that I was doing many things like that, but I simply dashed them out of my behaviour when I noticed that they aren't working. Also I used to do something just to see how others will react to it, so I could know should I keep doing that or do I have to stop or atleast be more careful. I did it on pointless things too. For example I used to say "doh" when I was 8 (probably) until I heard some other guy saying that and realised how stupid it was :D

      My points against having sociopathy would be:

      I had never hurted anyone without a reason.

      I was never really bad, like these bully kids are.

      I'm still young, so maybe I'm still forming myself.

      That would be all =\

      Things that are making me to be in control of myself are:

      I'm very principled, well sometimes I break my rules, but i get back to them later.

      I have my own rules and I know what is considered a good behaviour and what isnt.

      My parents tought me well that there are things that I shouldn't do (taking a life, etc.), maybe they made me to control myself too much, I don't know.

      I always pick an act that suits me in a situation, since I'm principled and so on I usually pick the safest one, which is good for others too sometimes :)

      Delete
    12. But I always put my needs above others.
      Oh and I considered my parents to be my advisors, not leaders, I think.

      Delete
    13. Mee
      I am glad you shared more about your life. Your age makes a difference, as you are forming. I think I may have made a pivotal but unconscious choice not to be a sociopath, at age 14. I think I could have gone either way, but one's whole life experiences, subconsciously, come together for one to make that "choice". It is at a subconscious level. I had quite a bit of abuse and that would have been the reason, I ccould have "chosen" the option of pushing down my conscience and my empathy and using others for my own needs.

      When I made that "choice" at 14, to go numb, I choose to deaden myself, rather than hurt other people, as I had love from my grandmother. That love saved me. Without it, I would have become a sociopath, I think.

      I don't say this to talk about me. I say it to compare my younger self to you. You did not have severe abuse. You are a young person. You are forming your personality and character. I think you are exploring various facets of yourself.

      We all have an inner "sociopath" i.e. a part of us that is amoral. For the people with severe abuse, they choose to live there, although the choice is subconscious imo

      A few people are born as sociopaths. That is not your case, so not germane to you.

      My feeling is that you are a very smart, articulate and intelligent young person, who is exploring facets of himself.

      Delete
    14. Mon, thanks for taking a closer look at Mee :)
      Well as I see, I haven't changed, I always was like this. Also, what if I missed my 14 year decision making ant leaned on sociopathy (ignoring the fact that I was always like this)?
      Once again I don't think that this is good or bad, I just want to know, because It's interesting.
      So what am I if I am very smart, inteligent, etc. person with sociopathic traits? =\
      I would appreciate to hear from other regulars too, if they have anything to say :)

      Delete
    15. Mee, it's hard to tell from the way you have worded your post. You have a talent for evasiveness already and that does come in handy, that's for sure. Did you use violence on your grandparents or harm yourself to get your way? How old were you when this happened (age could be important). When I was 8 I raised a guitar over my head and stood over my grandmother and threatened her with it. She complied. If she hadn't I truly don't know what I would have done.

      Delete
    16. Glad to see you up here again, Ellicit (by the way Elicious sounds better, or are you a another person?!).
      I'm not sure, but I think that I should feel guilt and be ashemed of what I am going to write, but I'm not.
      So I didn't wanted to do some things at the time, but my grandparents tried to control my routine, because my mother complained to my father that I do nothing at grandpas and father informed them (this is only an idea, but I think that I'm right about it). Anyway I noticed that something wasn't right and I started to feel pressure. Firstly I tried to change it back with words, after few attemts I realised that it wasn't working so I moved on shouting and showing various gestures I learned from older friends, but I was ignored anyway. And then I started using violence on them. I don't know what could happen next if this wouldn't had happened: I came back to my parents house at the weekend, got in conflict with mother and hit her. When it poped into my head that something wasn't right, it was not the way I used to behave in conflicts. But I defended myself with explanations anyway and didn't apologised (I rarely apologise for anything). However I stopped this activity.
      I might sound like I was a dumb arogant kid, but I wasn't, I simply noticed the sudden change in grandparents behaviour and freaked out because of it a little.

      About self harm, I only tried it once. I had finished all my work for the day, had some big plans for another one, but still had a few hours before going to sleep. So since I had nothing to do, I started to feel very very bored. I wasn't depressed or else, but I got curious "why those idiots cut themselves?". So I decided to try. I'm not an expert on this so it wasn't deep, dangerous cuts. First attention was amazing because some impulsib

      Delete
    17. Fuck writting with phone...
      ... First atemt was amazing, because some interesting impulses went through all the body. Second was boring, because I already knew how it feels and I did the third one anyway, just to finish the smile (talk about art =) ). I don't think that it is a big deal or anything like that, but, well you mentioned SI and it was the only time I tried it. And it really is a dull thing to do :(

      Delete
    18. Oh, I probably was 7 8 or 9 when this thing with grapdparents had happened.
      And I should mention, that normaly I don't see any reason to hurt myself, so don't worry :)

      Delete
    19. OK.What was this violence you did to your grandparents? Did you just pinch them, or what? You hit your mother. Did you slap her on the arm or? When I was 20 I beat up my mother - I smashed my fists into her face as hard as I could. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've never felt guilty about it, but I recognise it as a symptom of not being normal. (I'm the same person as Elicious)

      Delete
    20. Fists, many places in the area between shoulders and lower belly. Hit mom once, breast. She wasn't angry, looked sad, dissapointed, left me wondering. I didn't enjoyed it, it was a thing I thought I had to do, so no joy there. But I think that if I would be in your situation, maybe I would feel the same way you did, as it seems to be personal, while I was simply defending my interests and almost formed a habbit...
      Actually I can't understand what input this info can give. I was 7 or 8 or 9, it looked like an only option (and probably was). How can this help?

      Normaly I avoid fights, but if I do fight, people don't like it. Once in primary school I asked one friend to keep my chair for me, when I went back he refused to let me sit in my place, so I throwed him on the ground and kept smashing his head to ground, using my legs to make him stay there while he was scratching my face, pathetic. Later teacher asked me what had happened, I started to explain and started to cry for unknown reason (and that reminds me a situation when I started to cry because the lie I made up was sad, I don't think that it counts like real crying. Normally I can't force myself to cry and people had seen me crying twice in primary school, the story above and when I hurted my back). I can't remember if I cried in kindergarten :/
      Oh, but once again, these things does not count as a crime, lol
      Also, why did you change your name? =/
      P.S. It's interesting that normaly I seem to be peaceful :)

      Delete
    21. This discussion is so right in the place ("thank you, socipaths! (?)"):D

      Delete
    22. P.S. I throwed that friend down after a fiew minutes of he being an ass and making facial expresion like "what can you do about that", I tried to cope :)

      Delete
    23. This can help because from this, and other things you've said, it sounds like these aren't impulse control problems. You've said that you stopped the violence and don't commit crimes etc because you don't see those things as benefitting you. Right? That's a really good thing. It means you won't go through life destroying the things you've worked hard to achieve and not even understanding why you did it. It also means you are most likely not a sociopath. I'm not a psychologist though, but maybe you were on to something when you wondered if narcissist is more like you.

      I use this name in the forum. I thought I'd use the same one here after I made a new account. It was part of a process in further developing my understanding.

      Delete
    24. Nope, narcissistic pd doesn't fit either, because I don't want to be glorified and see myself how I really am, I don't think that I'm a main person in this world, I see things as they really are.
      Maybe It's time for me to create a completely new pd! I shall call it a "wanamee disorder"! (Kidding, obviously).
      Or maybe I am a type sociopath that Monica talks about, not an ass and so on :/ and I could be delusional while thinking that I'm in control, but I won't trade this idea to be sure about the pd.

      Delete
    25. Oh, but I am impulsive =\
      Well anyway, its enough for today, thank you for your time, Elicious, I really apreciate it :)
      And I almost forgot: are you a sociopath?

      Delete
  20. It looks like everyone here have their opinions about what being a sociopath means. Definitely an entertaining read.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Strangely no one here has the balls to give the exact definition of a sociopath. I got this definition: A sociopath is one who delights in hurting and harming others, even those who have no intentions of hurting or harming anyone else.

    ....................../´¯/)
    ....................,/¯../
    .................../..../
    ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
    ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
    ........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
    .........\.................'...../
    ..........''...\.......... _.·´
    ............\..............(
    ..............\.............\...

    ReplyDelete
  22. And that's a point of view too, fingerman.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Spit it out your little faggot.

      ....................../´¯/)
      ....................,/¯../
      .................../..../
      ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
      ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
      ........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
      .........\.................'...../
      ..........''...\.......... _.·´
      ............\..............(
      ..............\.............\...

      Delete

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