Saturday, June 9, 2012

Shame and justification (part 2)

For the sociopath's part, I don't think we're motivated by feelings of shame or embarrassment, although I hesitate to make a completely categorical statement.

This is not to say that sociopaths do not come up with stories to explain their behavior, sometimes seemingly outrageous stories like "I killed him because he looked at me funny."  They can and they do.  But everyone wants to explain their behavior. It helps give them a sense of purpose, of self-knowledge, and more importantly of control. If you don't know why you do things, then how do you know that it is even you who is choosing to do them?

The sociopath killer who says he killed someone because of a funny look is not attempting to justify his behavior so much as explain it to himself.  And it is an explanation.  Maybe the killing was an impulsive act, but it was prompted by something, in this case the look the victim gave him.  Perhaps a sociopath might take it one or two steps further and add "I don't allow people to disrespect me," or some general opinion about the small value of human life, but the sociopath is just reflecting on the "why" of the action, not the "what does the fact that I have performed this action say about me and my own concept of self?"  So unlike narcissists, sociopaths don't need to justify their behavior, but they'll still seek to explain it.

Another question the narcissist had was how sociopaths view the bad things we do to other people.  He gave this example of how narcissists view this sort of situation:

E.g. take lions that eat wildebeests. The narcissist lion has to convince himself that the wildebeest has it coming to it, or that the lion is doing the wildebeest a favor by eating it. I'm wondering if the sociopath lion has to engage in that sort of self-deception, or if it can just eat the wildebeest and not give a shit.

I don't think sociopaths really blame people so much as attribute their failings back to them. Using the lion example, the lion doesn't think the wildebeest is a bad person "so it had it coming."  For the sociopath, life is a survival of the fittest.  It's enough for the lion that the wildebeest is unable to defend itself. Why did the wildebeest die? In the sociopath's mind the answer is not "because the lion killed it," but "because the wildebeest couldn't run away or defend itself adequately." That's what is really happening when it seems like a sociopath is blaming someone else for the sociopath's own actions. It's more an assigning of responsibility on the victim for not being more vigilant than it is a justification of self according to some rigid construct of being a "good person," like narcissists do

Sociopaths do not view the entire world through the lens of self as much as narcissists do (not surprisingly).  Narcissists tend to think that everything that happens in their world is some sort of direct reflection of them (good person, bad person, whatever).  Sociopaths understand that they are just a cog in a machine.  While they don't completely give up on that idea of cause/effect and personal accountability, sociopaths are much more inclined to believe that what they do is perhaps meaningless.  As arms dealer Viktor Bout said, “If I didn’t do it, someone else would.”

185 comments:

  1. Neat. The difference between justification, and explanation.

    and for the record 2nd

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Outside the 'normal' range,there are different degrees of pd's.Narcs do tend to justify everything hence the shame thing that follows them,on some level,they know they shit everywhere, but their shit doesn't smell With S's,they think everything is justified,hence the expanations, they think their shit doesnt smell
      which brings me back to an interesting comment on yesterdays.An 8.02 anon spoke about walking that line.the line that differintiates weather your shit is gonna smell or not.

      The choice is always harder and renders more authentic power to you when it's made from a place of core purity,before the masks were formed.

      Totally unfair when you're dealing with 'the ones that don't want to move forward',

      ...but it doen't mean you have to join them...

      ...sometimes you have to stand alone...

      Delete
    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTahKIAwwBo

      Delete
    3. Anon 1:53

      I think you understood my comment and, yes, your last comment is right on.

      Delete
    4. i just tell people up front have shit that stinks to high heaven but i will say it out of a rosey flavored lipglossed mouth. that ok? I tell them straight up I am impulsive. No shame in that. i say straight up im selfish. No shame in that. I tell them straight up im vain an they're gonna have to wait a long time for me to get ready and I don't give a fuck how long it takes, an they should have packed my makeup and put it in the car while i was in the shower so we could all save time. No shame in saying it straight up I have time mgmt problems. I do the best I can. I told them that deal when they offered to take the milk from the cow free and I said "YES, I'M FREE BUT I COME WITH A PRICE, IDIOT" They say I'll buy the cow but she still smell up the joint. So I say It's not my fault you like me, Just DEAL and get used to the stench.

      Delete
  2. some ttttimes i sttutter

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Found out about the term sociopath yesterday, and this really drove it home for me. For when people you need just cant handle me. Increased heart rate, a single tear (whelling, but not dropping; no need to look like a bitch.), and sweating are also neat tricks. In my hellish childhood my standard diagnosis across the state was manic-depressive with narssastic tendancies and oppositional defiant disorder. Ha. Dumb fucks. I remember after a particularly crushing social blunder in my first year in college, i made it my goal to be able to 'die in public.' In all honesty 15 min after i found this site my reaction was to be pissed there are more like me than i thought. However, i can see the obvious value in having a users guide, and not needing to trial and error it all. I also have questions. What rules apply if you talk to another alone one and you both know what you and eachother are ?
      Do you still go through the dance of expressions, body language, and phrasing;? Or can it become a game of mastery of social prowess? I realize that this essentially an irrelant hypothetical issue, but it still interests me

      Delete
    2. Yup i am replying to myself. I do realize the DSM requires one be at least 18 to be diagnosed with ASPD. Now that i have this all infront of me I cant help but feel one particularly insiteful doc was hinting at it

      Delete
    3. Same guy: also one question i would acually like some perspectiveon.

      Has anyone ever set up a fictional voice inside their head to play the part of outside observer? "He is walkong to the fridge; his shoulders are back and his jaw is locked
      He looks angry."?
      I started it on drugs, but kept it around for about a month. (It was extreamly exausting.) I felt much better assimilated and socialized after i stopped. I knew what i was doing the whole time, i was not delusional about the intentionally manufactured voice in my head. Any similar experiences? Or does that make me a different kind of crazy? Does saying please help here

      Delete
    4. Nvn either way this shit is empowering
      and useful

      Delete
    5. Although recognizing pockets of actual self deception sucks however short lived. Its disgusting like being wrong about something

      Delete
  3. Why does the lion eat wildebeasts?

    "Because that's what lions DO!" *Moriarty face*

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why did the lion eat the wild beast?

      Because the wild beast looked at him funny.

      Delete
    2. Why did the lion eat the wild beast?

      Because he could

      Delete
    3. Sherlock and Moriarty are the best things to happen to television in my lifetime. They are true blue and honest to the core. I hopw there's more sociopathic characters on mainstream television in the future. Then maybe the neurotypicals won't be so scared of us.

      Delete
    4. I agree. But I think that as much as Sherlock helped the image, Moriarty hurt it. They think that Sherlock is awesome, they'd love to date him, they'd love to BE him. (really? ..because you just called me a monster...) But they're afraid of a character like Moriarty.
      But I adore the character of Moriarty; he's what every 'good' sociopath dreams of. I'm sick of playing mind-checkers with these neurotypicals, bring on the mind-chess! It would be a challenge and a person you could actually be yourself around.

      Delete
    5. Wasn't Sherlock an aspie? Agree about J.M. though. But why is Moriarty scary?! It's just man, who does his job :/

      Delete
    6. I think it's hard to tell about Sherlock. He definatly has some socio aspects, but I think he cares too much for the people around him to really be a sociopath. So maybe just a high-functioning aspie.
      And I think, with Moriarty it's just that the empaths see that they couldn't beat him. So what would they do if they got in trouble with a socio? I've no idea though...I can't get myself to think like that. Hurts my brain trying.

      Delete
    7. If people would know that Jim or Holmsy are socios, they would simply become suspects (like Sherlock did for a moment). This is what socios and negroes have in common. But they shouldn't, It's not like we are going to harm them for no reason....
      I think that sociopaths are feared just because they are unpredictable, I can't predict my actions myself :)
      Sherlock doesn't care about all people "oh she doesn't matter, she's just a hostage, there's no lead there", he only cares about people loyal to him. He lacks some socio features, but it could simply be his mask :/
      Aspies like order and Sherlocks place is a mess...
      Well I'm not completely sure about this character. I had an idea that Jim is a psycho, while Sherlock is a socio.

      Delete
    8. He says he's a Sociopath in like the first episode so arguing whether or not he is is kinda pointless

      Delete
    9. @Mee
      I always thought the same thing. J.M. was a psycho. But maybe that's just because I thought Sherlock could be a socio and Jim a psycho and all would be fun and games.
      I think that Sherlock isn't fully a socio, but he likes to tell himself that he is. And he definatly has many of the characteristics.

      @Anon 1:53
      So....just because he says he is he is? Like I said, I like to think that he just wants to be so he says he is. And at the moment he says it he's just doing it to sound smartassy. I mean, no one from the really neuro-typical population would care about the difference between a socio and a psycho, so why would he bring it up except to piss Anderson off? And really, just because you say you are something doesn't mean you are.

      Delete
  4. So do I)). I think it are annoying)).

    Согласно МКБ-10, заикание — это нарушение речи, которое характеризуется частым повторением или пролонгацией звуков или слогов, или слов; или частыми остановками или нерешительностью в речи, разрывающей её ритмическое течение)) Диагноз ставится, когда эти симптомы значительны. В отечественной логопедической литературе устоялось более простое, но только обобщающее предыдущие, определение заикания как «нарушения темпо-ритмической организации речи, обусловленного судорожным состоянием мышц речевого аппарата». Синонимы: логоневроз, логоклония, lalonevros, balbuties.[1] Обычно связано с логофобией (вербофобией) — фобией говорить, являющейся следствием или причиной заикания))).

    ReplyDelete
  5. It's interesting how I can totally agree with the socio part. But it makes me wonder: is it possible for a sociopathic lion to think that it simply killed the wildebeest because it had to eat, wildebeest isn't responsible about it in any way, if this animal would run fast enough, other one wouldn't?
    Once again I find narcissists logic interesting too:)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Whenever pressed for an explanation for my actions that's the reason I get. I kicked him because I wanted to kick him and he couldn't defend himself from my kick. I ate him because I needed to eat and he was there. It was his fault for failing protecting himself properly.

      Delete
    2. And how do 'normal' people/lions think?!

      Delete
    3. @Mee
      I'd say they do it for a selfish reason, because they wanted too, but they have the problem of shame and fear and guilt. It makes them less likely to do it in the first place and if they do it they regret it and try and un-do it.

      Delete
    4. Need to find more input on this. I think I finally started to ask the right questions as I already know how socios think....

      Delete
  6. I don't know if I can put this into words of how my mother would "blame" me. As I come out of this horrendous fog, I can see the workings of things to which I was, previously. blind.

    There were layers of faulty reasoning built up to allow her to abuse me and be JUSTIFIED.

    I can't grasp them all as it is a complex mechanism of how she lied to herself and distorted reality, but this article makes them swim up to the surface, a bit.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Monica, why are you here? You're damaged beyond repair. Go away!

      Delete
  7. Monica, we had the same mother ??

    ReplyDelete
  8. Monica, you never shared the specifics. I suspect there is a shame in there that you may have taken part in this, or your mother may actually not be abusing you in her mind and you just can't hear her truth.

    There is this generic my mom abused me thing going on.

    You are saying you fight against abusers in general but you only keep away from your mom. SOmething is not right here.

    WHat is holding you back? Inheritance? They can't hide that away, it's your right.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is easy to say "Fuck you" to a person and walk away. Anyone can do that. To unravel all the skeins of yard that tie you to the person is the hard part.

      Delete
    2. If everyone could snip that easily, no one would be mental.

      Delete
    3. Ain't that they truth, Anon 9:54. I'm still trying to figure out why the hell Monica is here if she can't even master the art of snipping the baggage. It's disgusting.

      Delete
    4. Anon 7:50
      Once one can fight against abusers, it transfers. It is a paradigm where one can stand up to bullies with one's own personal power. Once that paradigm kicks in, one can use it on anyone. It is, both, a set skill and a level of self worth.

      Basically, it it feeling you are worth defending. Once you have that inner certitude, the externals become rather easy.

      Delete
    5. Monica,
      Your avoiding your mother is not called fighting, it's called fleeing. You basically fled the scene. I'd call it fighting if you got her to apologize.
      You are fighting the likes of your mother verbally quite well here, did you give any of that to your own mom? What is holding you back? That is my question.

      I'm anon 7:50, let's call me YGF as in you gotta fight to make it easy.

      Delete
    6. Monica 11:01

      yep.

      Delete
    7. You basically fled the scene. I'd call it fighting if you got her to apologize.

      Sounds like you don't have a narc parent. My mother's a narc too and I severed all contact with her years ago. Trying to get a narc to apologise or see their crap is an exercise in futility that will drive you nuts with frustration. From my pov it makes the most sense to just disengage.

      Delete
  9. NTS.... Narc to socioJune 9, 2012 at 8:04 AM

    Yesterday several people shared why SW is valuable for them.

    Thanks to the shame post of yesterday and the connecting Narcissist articles I feel I finally understand how the dynamics have been playing in three generations of my family, and how I assumed some of the narcissistic traits.

    I don't like my narcissistic traits a bit, because I love the truth. Once I saw my own truth (including all the past shame and guilt I felt) I have the desire to stop them. Here is my check list, like the list aspie post had the other day.

    1. If you don't have something to say that would pump another's ego, don't say anything, just smile.

    2. When people tell some story you'll remember a relevant story from your own life. Don't share. Keep it to yourself, particularly if it is more of the bottom-line of the story. Meaning if the story is sad, don't tell a story that is even worse. If the story is interesting, don't tell an even more interesting story.

    3. Don't embellish your stories, keep it at short version.

    4. Don't share your knowledge unless someone is asking or paying for it.

    5. Don't share strong opinions, take time to understand their strong opinions.

    6. Listen with an intent to ask a follow up question that shows you are really interested. Keep pumping their ego, and have an exit before they are ready to end the conversation/meeting.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why do you have this need to feed or pump up their ego? And why would you want to exit while they are in
      a train of thought? It sounds like your intentions are all about you. Right?

      Delete
    2. Yes, I am trying to make my intentions all about me in a conscious level, because as a narc I never thought so in the past. I am trying to create a set of habits where I withhold information and learn to seek information.

      Delete
    3. But others will see you as detached and self absorbed.

      Delete
    4. Oh, may need to explain more. My attitude has been more of I am so sure I am right, similar to Jose, and I was always uncomfortable with praising but very comfortable with criticizing. All learned really, my parents always did that, and my siblings and I do, too.

      I want to turn praising into normal, and need to shoot for excessive for a while to hopefully end up at a normal level.

      I also will be seeing how terrible I was at sucking up to people's ego booster bs.

      Delete
    5. "I am trying to create a set of habits where I withhold information and learn to seek information."

      I have these habits and I am not happy with them.

      Delete
    6. How will they see me as detached and self-absorbed when I make it all about them? Can you explain your thinking? That's what I am trying to avoid, i have been appearing sufficiently self-absorbed.

      Delete
    7. I did not suggest to leave in a train of thought. I suggested that I leave while they'd like more of my attention.

      In the past I gave all I got, talked and told too much, and they got to say when to end.

      Delete
    8. Thanks, now, I get it

      Delete
    9. I liked your 10:26 post and I, agree, but what if you
      periodically stayed when they wanted more of your
      thoughts and attention?

      Delete
    10. How funny - you pulled that on me. Thanks, for the insight.

      Delete
    11. Its a good practice Narc. Leaving people wanting more is an art.

      Delete
    12. Thanks, UKan.

      UKan, can you please help me define a clear separation between a narc and a socio. There are a lot of commonalities but what I see in what they differ significantly is that a socio is accepting it's all about him and manipulating the system to his benefit, whereas a narc appears to put the system, or some ideal, at the top at a cost to people, even including the self, stuck in a nonpractical idealistic hero setting.

      Do you buy that?

      Because if you do, in my systematic view all I have to do is decide to put me and mine ahead and say screw the rest to kick me out of the narc definition.
      Several of the narc traits are not serving my personal interests well at all. In teh name of being good and idealistic I've made life too difficult, and am not even enjoying what comes out of it since normals or socios could not care less about the ideals.

      I've been masking subconsciously to protect the stupid idealistic false self, and now I'd be masking to protect the real self.

      I hope Monica is reading this, because her Christian views are just like my idealistic views, and only adding to her narc side while she thinks it is her empath side.

      Delete
    13. You know what is kind of weird about your comment? The implication that ANYONE can find the perfect balance between these things. Moreover, attempting to find it is part of the sickness, itself.

      Delete
    14. "Attempting to find a balance is the sickness itself."

      No wonder you are really hopeless. What are you trying to find, psychic truth?

      Delete
    15. Actually, let's practice the new me on Monica from now on.

      Monica, you were a good girl allowing your mother do these terrible things. After all, respecting parents is in your religion. Jesus would have respected his mom and given her a massage whenever she wanted.

      You are a wonderful addition to SW in the sense that you provide an excellent example of how we can feel safe and be unaware under the perfection of Jesus, submitting like he did, allowing to be put on a cross by even our mothers.

      Jesus will help you Monica. Did you choose the name from Monica Lewinsky, she was a great contributor to others' happiness as well. She is in Jesus' care too, isn't she? Was she the example of innocence or evil, Monica? What does Lewinsky stand for in your eyes? An abuse victim?

      Delete
    16. I would say that's partly a fair assessment.

      I will give you my perspective, based on what I've read and observed.

      Narcissists tend to be very focused on creating an single glorified image of themself. They find someone or a mix of certain attributes that they admire and try to convince people of being that image. Their main focus is being seen as someone they believe other people will admire. The fact that not everyone admires the same thing in people is sort of beyond them. Projecting themselves on everyone else, its hard for them to understand that other people are different, with different behaviour, goals, and idiosyncrasies.

      Narcissists like to think they are manipulative, but since their single focus is building a over inflated image for others it is not hard for many people to see through it. Their passion is creating as many admirers to support the image they've made of themselves. They believe the lies and stories theyve created. The most common image is one of made up of a exaggerated trials in life followed by their inevitable transformation into someone who's altruistic and stable. The ones I've seen multiple times is the special forces soldier turned office professional. The drug addict turned shaman. The criminal turned family man. The drug dealer turned music producer. I worked inside a club and it was almost uncanny how similiar they were to each other. I used to muse that they had meetings where they shared lies. Later I figured out that every lie was a character I had seen in a movie.


      Sociopaths also have a big ego, but none of it focuses on a single image but more of what actions they get away with. Sociopaths center everything around manipulation. Robert Hare calls it 'compulsive duping'. Sociopaths will lie knowing that they are lieing and see if that person they are lieing to will fall for it just for the thrills. Their entire psychological make up is there for deception. They will meet someone and immediately start emulating that person. Its not a conscious effort on the sociopaths part. Most have no idea they are doing it. The effect is that the person they are talking to will start seeing similarites in themselves and trust the sociopath. Sometimes sociopaths will figure out who you look up to. Maybe its a father figure or mentor. Once they find out those qualities you admire in that person the sociopath will start demonstrating those qualities to that person, again to build trust.

      Sociopaths are extaverts and talk to a lot of people. When they speak to people it is to get reactions. Its their way of constantly keeping control. They want to see what triggers different emotions in you so later they are able to trigger emotions in you at ease. They also keep profiles of people they've met previously, so that they can use the same tactics they used on someone similiar to you that they had previously. They can also use these profiles to become people they've met previously. Like say you talk about how you admired your father for sticking to his principles. A sociopath will pull up his/her memory of someone they met that was very principled and start mimicking them down to hand gestures. They will find opportunities to demostrate an unbreakable set of principles all borrowed from some person they met previously

      Delete
    17. Narcissists are generally annoying to some socially while psychopaths are generally well liked. However in time psychopaths are not the person who they portray. Once you hang around them enough the psychopath will start showing characteristics not well liked at all. They are bullies and troublemakers. Reckless, greedy, territorial, and prone to breaking rules. They thrive on conflict and trickery. They turn people on each other for nothing more than entertainment value. They do things so off the wall that only they know the motivation behind it, because nobody could think that someone would cause so much upheaval merely for entertainment. This is where narcissists have advantage over psychopaths. Psychopaths can't hold jobs long and the amount of long term friends and relationships they form are very few. Psychopaths generally break laws and regulations in the companies they work for. For all of those reasons psychology generally see narcissists as being less disordered than sociopaths.

      Delete
    18. Good stuff UKan

      Delete
    19. Ukan said:
      They will meet someone and immediately start emulating that person. Its not a conscious effort on the sociopaths part. MMost have no idea they are doing it. The effect is that the person they are talking to will start seeing similarites in themselves and trust the sociopath. Sometimes sociopaths will figure out who you look up to. Maybe its a father figure or mentor. Once they find out those qualities you admire in that person the sociopath will start demonstrating those qualities to that person, again to build trust.

      Sociopaths are extaverts and talk to a lot of people. When they speak to people it is to get reactions.

      Does the borderline do this? In your opinion.

      Delete
    20. N to S is Eden * roll eyes*

      Delete
    21. It looks like it because she does the mirroring. It isn't the same.

      Delete
    22. No. It isn't. But I have absolute proof that you're an idiot.

      Delete
    23. That comment was for anon 6:03

      Delete
    24. God, When I am grown up who will I be?

      Delete
    25. When you are grown up you will be about to die. What do you care, you will be dead.

      Delete
    26. are you still working on your book and writing poetry?

      Delete
    27. I haven't been inspired in poetry lately. I'm still gutting the book out. The young woman who is helping me through the first editing process is busy with other projects, and I can't do this without her help.

      I'm not going to rush this. I would ask you if you're still doing whatever it is... but I have no idea who you are.

      Delete
    28. It's ok I don't mind. I don't offer too too many personal details about what I am doing in my life. Just how I feel about the subjects we talk about here.

      Delete
  10. Some people are just full of shit, and they know it, but are too weak, and swayed by the masses to change. Losers.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Some people are just full of shit, and are too scared of what other people think to change.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Some poeple are just full of shit.

    ReplyDelete
  13. The quote is from the narc site ME posted recently, April 11, http://narcissistworld.wordpress.com/:
    "The nonjudgmental part is important: even if you aren’t judgmental, it is hard to notice what you are thinking and feeling. But as a hyper-judging narcissist, you not only judge yourself all the time, but also hide from yourself anything about yourself that you judge negatively. This is why you are the last to figure out that you’ve gotten fat, that your nose is bent, that you are callous or hypercompetitive."

    Ouchie... This sure applies to me. I was never fat but I sure never realized one of my teeth was crooked till this dentist pointed out and fixed it. People told me I was hypercompetitive and dominating several times, also that it was not all about me, and I never understood what the heck they were talking about. Clearly, it's my talking too much, I need to stop sharing. I used to think I am an aspie, and I may well slightly be, but I seem to come across more like a narc, and I may was well accept it and mask to avoid this. Strangely, all it boils down to is really controlling talking, and reacting, slowing it down. I truly don't give a hoot what these people think bt it's best to manipulate them in the direction of them feeling good about themselves as opposed to showing them what I think of them. It'll be hard to change my opinions of people, but maybe if I learn to mask (appear nonjudgmental) eventually I will become nonjudgmental. Fake it till you make it as they say.

    Looking back I realize how I frustrated a lot of people that I really cared for. Like I used to say things like I'd never marry a guy who makes less than I do to a guy who makes less than his wife. Ouch....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. no it was not tmi. That is a perfect description of my mother.

      Delete
  14. @YGF I couldn't reply up there

    What you guys don't seem to understand is that outer actions, such as my standing up to my mother, doesn't change the inner fabric of one's personality built up to deal with a sucky situation.

    That edifice is the problem. Honestly, I think the solution is simple. Just getting there is hard. The solution is to love oneself, as one is. Talk is cheap. Everyone knows that. You have to have it in the gut or it is worth little.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Monica, if the solution was only to love yourself we would have never heard about your mother from you. The pain is in you, and has nothing to do with loving yourself. For one thing it's hard to love oneself when one sticks to the notion 'my mom never loved me, abused me.' You have to give her a chance to apologize.

      Jesus says forgive. You have not forgiven, and you can't forgive without verbalizing the shit to the party who caused the shit. You have stepped out of calling one particular act into calling the entire woman evil, which is ok but you will see her in yourself once you accept some of your own truth. So, to be able to forgive and love yourself you need to start at your mother. I am not saying you love her, I am saying respect her enough to tell her how she abused you. There is a good chance she'll minimize it, so what. You will see how simple and unimportant she is. At the moment, and since you first started talking about her, we've been observing how important the bitch is. She ain't. And, you ain't. None of us are that important, face it. Find the humor in the whole bs, called humanity.

      Delete
    2. Thanks N to S
      It is nice to know there is some real wisdom in here and not people just running down people's ass.

      Delete
    3. For one thing it's hard to love oneself when one sticks to the notion 'my mom never loved me, abused me.' You have to give her a chance to apologize.

      Bullshit.

      You have not forgiven, and you can't forgive without verbalizing the shit to the party who caused the shit.

      Bullshit.

      So, to be able to forgive and love yourself you need to start at your mother. I am not saying you love her, I am saying respect her enough to tell her how she abused you.

      Such bullshit.

      Where did you come with this crap?

      Don't take advice from a narcissist.

      Delete
    4. ^See, Monica

      You blow it everytime. Stop sticking your ass in other people's face and, perhaps, they won't belittle
      you. Have you ever thought of that? Oh, that's right - every one else is to blame.

      Delete
    5. I am sure Monica is under her bed crying Waaaa ^^^

      Delete
    6. Anon 3:42

      No, don't think she's crying and hasn't in years. Ask me if I care

      Delete
    7. Monicas only hope is to confront her mother in order to solidly externalize the blame for what happened to her in childhood. Till then she could try to tell herself whatever she wants but deep down the seed her mother planted of her being worthless and her sexual abuse being her fault will hold steadfast because it is firmly rooted. Her mother made an image of being infallible and monica being worthless. Until its directly confronted that is an image that will be their forever. I already said this several times but monica chooses the weak path. One with no confrontation and avoidance.

      Delete
    8. Good one UKan

      Delete
    9. confront, let go, and move on. saying it out loud makes it real in a way that having it rattle in your head never can.

      Delete
    10. I agree with Medusa's call of bullshit on most of N to S' views. UKan, what you say is all well and good, but for Monica to try to stand up to this creature who mindfucked her six ways to Sunday isn't the simple task you make it out to be, for her. If she gets strong enough, then definitely. This she needs to forgive crap, is just that. She needs to backhand the bitch and tell exactly what she did to her, then walk away for good.

      Delete
    11. she doesn't have to do it in one fell swoop. that wouldn't even work with narcissists. they would assume you'd lost your mind. what works is establishing boundaries gradually to change their view of you. rehashing the past is pointless as they rewrite the past all the time. that's if you want to maintain the relationship.

      if you don't want to keep the relationship, or don't care, confronting full board is good because it forces you to face it yourself. it makes it real whether the other person acknowledges it or not.

      Delete
    12. Maybe so, Zoe. But we are talking specifically about Monica's mother who is a narc and a therapist. An expert in mindfuckery, and Monica. To attempt to gradually establish boundaries would mean exposing herself to more of the same.

      Delete
    13. good point, Ell. it worked to a point with my mother. i kept it simple and started with the comments on my appearance. i would go ballistic when they were were made uninvited. she did stop. but i think the larger picture, where it came from was lost to her. she learned only that criticizing the way i looked would turn me into an instant bitch. it was practical.

      Delete
    14. Yes, an insane bitch. I am contemplating this scenario. I have gone insane on here ~

      Delete
  15. UKan, thank you for 1:39 and 1:42. I see the type of narc you are talking about. But, there are also narc's who have been a steady success from the beginning where they were say top of their class for many years but once they start hitting some real life problems their narc roots prevent them from being a team player and leading up the ladder.

    I think there is a word for these, something like midlife narcissists. These are the unrealized potential cases. I think I fit this model. There is still hope I can turn things around, but clearly I need to get off the high horse and rebuild and reconnect, and fake my true opinions of those who are holding the top spots that I could enjoy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I had a feeling at the beginning of you describing the 'special' type of narcissist that you would end by saying you fit that description. It was pretty typical and predictable to be frank with you. You'll have to forgive me in not trusting your view of yourself.

      Narcissists don't start midlife. They start early. People start developing their personalities in adolescents. Even victims. It isn't the victimization in adulthood that changed them it was the victim complex set in motion during childhood that set them up to be victimized in adulthood.

      For narcissists its the unattainable expectations people had that cause them to develop into creating a facade to avoid the shame of not being good enough. Its not unusual for narcissists to be successful and I would say they could hold on to success longer than a sociopath theoretically. Sociopaths tend to do a quick rise and fall consistently throughout their life due to their reckless behaviour. However, to tell me you just developed narcissistic traits mid life is bollocks.

      Delete
    2. UKan Be DidacticJune 9, 2012 at 4:06 PM

      Good stuff UKan

      Delete
    3. Thanks. Proxy self praise. I like it.

      Delete
    4. UKan Tip Your HatJune 9, 2012 at 5:39 PM

      You're welcome.

      Delete
    5. yes, great stuff UKan. how do you know so much about narcissism?

      Delete
    6. UKan, I did not say it started midlife. What I meant is early life appeared pretty normal and successful (whereas your examples were about those who later found a 'rebirth' personality after early hick-ups). In my case, I believed narcissistic traits started showing up once problems started and pretty much as soon as I left my parents' home, away from dad's terrorizing presence and threat to beat if I were not up to his standards.

      I was basically saying that I don't fit the drug addict turning successful picture. My early life is the most solid in appearance in terms of sticking to a life by the book (meaning morally high ground, not religious, or meaning serving every request of being a good girl by dad), with no adolescent trouble, no conflict with parents, no drinking/smoking. I was scared shitless to blur the waters when I lived at home.

      Delete
    7. NtoS, a lot of what you say is dead on about narcissism. you're describing it from the inside, whereas UKan is describing it from the outside. i was going to reply earlier to specific details but am feeling lazy. maybe later.

      after a drink :)

      narcissists don't age well. you learned narcissist skills when you were younger. your early life was not yours but your father's. now that it's yours, you only have the narcissist skills to use: criticizing, courting attention and admiration.

      the tactics to break out of it that you described above are fine. it's kind of like the fake self is a shell the real self has to peck its way out of. there is no one correct way to do it. other than to keep trying, to keep "pecking" until you break out of it.

      Delete
    8. Aw "pecking" ---such a creative way to say it, Zoe!

      Delete
    9. 'lil narcissist chicks.... gotta love em :)

      Delete
  16. Just a friggin great theme if you like late night radio

    ReplyDelete
  17. drink.drank.drunk. You people need help
    Dunno who harmed you
    , but it sure is their fault.Shame on them and God bless you!

    ReplyDelete
  18. I never get bored, but I am bored tonight. I have a question for you. What is the single most goal you want to reach before you hit your death bed?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I just got that--100 years old. I don't want that. I would rather die before I get too old.

      Delete
    2. 60 is too old for some. you get all wrinkly and weak. but i'm sure 60 will seen like a spring chicken to me when i'm 100! it's all relative.

      Delete
  19. The single most goal I want to reach before I hit my death bed is that I don't run out of money.

    What is yours Monica?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, mine is very clear, to me. I want to be a person when I die. I want someone who is a separate and distinct person, to die.

      Delete
    2. I don't understand how you don't feel that way already. WHo are you codependent with to feel this way? Your mom? Dad? Child? Jesus?

      You can love your Jesus and still feel your own person.

      Read Erich Fromm's Escape from Freedom. See if it helps.

      I always felt independent and tried to achieve interdependence as Fromm says. Now, come to think of it, my narc nature would have never allowed for interdependence. I'll be darn. This narc shit has to dissipate. I may still have a shot at interdependence if I can fix this. Yet, my personal not running out of money is still more important to me than not achieving interdependence. Gotta take care of the self, narc or socio.

      Delete
    3. I don't want to die a grown up; I want to die having grown young.

      Delete
    4. ..with plenty of money, of course.

      Delete
    5. I am an Echo of my mother. I had to be one so much that I froze. When I went numb, I froze in the shape of Echo.

      Delete
    6. monica, these words: numb, frozen. You must love these two. Your safe haven. Who gave you those? Do you meditate on them? I hate them. They are major self-loathing, telling the self: 'I am dead.'

      Delete
    7. how are you an echo? the way you relate to others, look, talk, and walk? or the way you feel on the inside - if that, how do you know that's an echo of your mother? how can it be?

      i think you hold on to the idea of your mother, like a life raft, because it gives you identity. being someone stranded in a life raft is better than being no one, alone in the ocean. i don't know how you would break free other than to just jump in the water, swim away, and start over as no one. this doesn't mean hitching a ride in life on boat socio...

      Delete
    8. I am coming out of it by forcing personal expression and as I do, my identity solidifies.

      Delete
    9. @NtoS

      why do you hate numb and frozen? i don't hate them. i can't comprehend them.

      @Monica

      what does numb feel like? how do you know you're numb? is numb being encased in memories? are you frozen in time and living out the past?

      Delete
    10. I have to think about your question, Zoe. Thanks for caring enough to ask it!

      Delete
    11. but it's not about solidifying an identity, is it?

      you mean you're freeing the self, dissolving identity...

      Delete
    12. @Monica

      you written about being numb before, and i've always wondered about it. i don't understand numb. one difference between us i think is i have a rather fluid sense of self

      Delete
    13. Zoe
      Numb is like being underwater. You can't feel your own feelings. You are not present in life. You live as if under glass. Plath describes it in "The Bell Jar". You are in shock. The shock never goes away. It is permanent.

      Delete
    14. I am glad you brought that up n to s.

      I thought I was existential enough and empty enough as a borderline. I don't want to listen to "numb" either. But I do feel it sometimes. I can encourage it if I want.


      I think repression of emotion feels like numb. When you express yourself often enough you cannot possibly be encouraging numb. When we create something we are saying "I exist"

      Raven's poetry says that. Haven's creative outlets say it, Medusa's music tells me this.

      Delete
    15. if it's permanent then how will you achieve your goal?

      Delete
    16. YES self expression breaks you out of the numb. I discovered that and am doing it.

      Delete
    17. in hospital they encourage it for healing.

      Delete
    18. Well, Zoe, I am fortunate in that I have found a passion that allows me to express my creativity. Also, I am learning to sing. You cannot be a stiff, shut down board and sing. You must loosen up. If not, you will be ridiculous. So, I have a way out. The pain of coming out of the numb is really bad because you must feel the pain that forced you in. It was pain so bad that if you did not go numb, you would die. I have friends to help. I have God and I am doing it.

      Delete
    19. singing is good! singing doesn't lie. i had a sadistic music teacher when i was twelve who punished us when we misbehaved by making us sing solos. i couldn't sing for years after that!

      it felt like being blocked or something. maybe my blocked is your numb?

      Delete
    20. Well, the best way to describe numb is if you have ever been told of a death of someone you loved. You go into shock. You feelings are far away. Everyone is far away. You are under water, many, many layers under. You live there.

      Delete
    21. Monica, I believe what you're describing is called drowning.

      I see you laugh at the humor displayed here at SW. If you were frozen the way you say, you couldn't animate yourself in either direction. You would not be able to enjoy humor if you were numb.

      Delete
    22. Eden
      I have my own program to break out of the numb. Well, I found a program on Overcoming Depersonalization, on the internet. It tells you to force expression of yourself. What you see here is my actual personality. I am this person. I am just underwater feeling. As I force all my expressions, whether it be anger, humor, love, or caring, I start to heal. I am healing quite a bit but the slowness of it gets me down.

      However, I suppose I am learning things by the slowness, too, like compassion for people who are mentally ill.

      Delete
  20. Monica said..
    Well, mine is very clear, to me. I want to be a person when I die. I want someone who is a separate and distinct person, to die


    just had this thought.. is it possible what you're after is image rather than self, one more powerful than your mother's? that way you win.. your reality becomes more powerful than hers. but the only way to do that is to take on her values and do them better.

    when i was younger i was in a kind of "image competition" with my parents. giving up image for the real self often means losing value in the eyes of our narcissist judges. tough pill.

    ReplyDelete
  21. why hate numb and frozen? are you serious, zoe? i hope you don't get literally numb (paralyzed) or frozen (jump into a deep freezer) tomorrow to comprehend them. sometimes universe hears you and allows you to comprehend, literally, lol.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i thought we weren't being literal. i've been literally numb and frozen! but never mentally paralyzed.

      Delete
    2. clarification.. i was asking why because to hate something suggests that the object means enough to you to hate it.

      I LOVE numb and frozen. especially when i'm having my teeth drilled, eating ice cream, and walking in the snow.

      Delete
    3. Surely you know by now that people use the word "hate", just as loosely as they use the word "love", Zoe. Kind of like, "I LOVE ice cream!"

      I would never over analyze your love for ice cream, as if it meant you have some deep and personal relationship with it, like you would a person.

      That aside... do carry on with your detached assessment on life and the human condition. I can tell that shunning any sign of negative emotion, is a huge deal for you.

      Delete
    4. ok how about this: i hate that i bothered to ask because now i'm numb and frozen with boredom. btw i think you meant showing not shunning.

      but since you're paying attention to me and i'm feeling like an attention whore just now, i'll share..

      it would be too easy to jump in and attack. soon after Monica first appeared, i decided to stop sniping at others online. for the most part, i lost my appetite for it. i mean to post something that's clever only because it makes someone else look stupid when they're trying to fit in or look smart... how sad is that?

      but i still feel the urge, and that's the narcissism, and i don't want to nurture it.

      Delete
    5. so yeah sometimes i think fuck all of you, and force a smiley.

      :)

      Delete
    6. That's not what I meant at all. I wasn't being judgmental just now. I was merely suggesting that from how I look at you... and the way you talk about negative emotions, and how you try to analyze them when they arise... You make it seem as though you view all negative emotions as some kind of deformity.

      Something unattractive to wear. So you threw out all your negative emotions wardrobe, and only wear positive emotions outfits. Because it's more attractive. Would you say this is a preferred kind of narcissism? Is it more acceptable narcissism?

      This was mot about Monica, or even how you do things here.

      Food for thought.

      Delete
    7. i didn't think you were being judgmental. i realize i come across as some analytical susie sunshine. for the most part sniping has lost it's appeal to me. it never was my thing. i should probably find another forum. i like the sharp minds here though. so i'm lingering, like that too sweet headache inducing perfume you tried on while shopping...

      maybe i do view negative emotions as some kind of deformity. nice analogy. it doesn't come from narcissism. i've been meditating and working on managing emotions, both positive and negative. both take energy. so is that the only way to communicate? to either pat or stab each other in the back? so much like real life.

      yes, positive wardrobe is a much more acceptable narcissism!

      Delete
    8. if i'm being really honest, i don't like the out of control feeling i get from negative emotions. it's not about image, but self control. if you can make me mad, you win. if you can make me smile, we both win.

      this place is my little practice ground for impulse control. if i lose it here, how will i keep it in real life?

      Delete
    9. "so is that the only way to communicate? to either pat or stab each other in the back? so much like real life."

      This is not real life though, Zoe. I don't stab or pat people all day in my real life. This is a blog. A virtual world of people pretending not to care about what they really care about.

      I don't hide how people make me feel here. If that makes me abusive, or hyper-sexual, or fucked up... so be it.

      If you're going to play roulette, but you don't have the nerve for it... find some other virtual world for yourself. Monica feels so abused here. Boo Hoo for her. But she stays, and makes the excuse that it helps her to face us monsters. That's total crap. You can learn a lot about PD's here, but this place will not teach you coping skills in the real world unless your aim is to get better at hiding what you really feel inside.

      I know the difference between me who comes here to do as I please, and the me of real life. If you were to meet me in the real world, Zoe... you would not even know I had a nasty streak. I'd probably have no reason to show it to you.

      And while we are talking about sniping at people, you were actually the first person who ever sniped at me when I briefly dipped my toes in SW water, back in '09. You seemed to enjoy very much your attempt at making me look foolish and uneducated.

      I bet you don't even remember that, and one of the reasons why, is because I've never brought it up in the nearly year I've been here since. Do you know why? Because I truly don't take this shit personal. That doesn't make me better than anyone here, but it does show that I know how to separate this place from the real world.

      Kudos to you for trying to find a higher ground to place yourself on, when you come here to comment. But we both know there's a snake in you, same as everyone else who comes here to let it loose.

      Delete
    10. You are not as tough as you think, Eden :)

      Delete
    11. I bet you don't even remember that, and one of the reasons why, is because I've never brought it up in the nearly year I've been here since. Do you know why? Because I truly don't take this shit personal. That doesn't make me better than anyone here, but it does show that I know how to separate this place from the real world.

      you're right i don't!

      Delete
    12. Kudos to you for trying to find a higher ground to place yourself on, when you come here to comment. But we both know there's a snake in you, same as everyone else who comes here to let it loose.

      snake implies deceptiveness. maybe more like inner feral kitty? :)

      i'm not trying to find higher ground, or be better. why should attacking those perceived weak or stupid be okay in a virtual world and not in real life? is this really about letting the snake loose or about letting our inner bullies out? why should i feed that?

      Delete
    13. If you're going to play roulette, but you don't have the nerve for it... find some other virtual world for yourself. Monica feels so abused here. Boo Hoo for her. But she stays, and makes the excuse that it helps her to face us monsters. That's total crap. You can learn a lot about PD's here,

      it's a little bit of a different place for each of us maybe, like reality in general. i like the intellectual exchange here... maybe i should look for an online debating club?!

      but this place will not teach you coping skills in the real world unless your aim is to get better at hiding what you really feel inside.

      i don't agree. or maybe it depends on the type of skills needed and individuals we deal with in the real world? and for me it's not about hiding as much as choosing which feelings to entertain. just because you feel it doesn't mean you have to act on it and spew it on the world around you. even here... how i see it.

      Delete
    14. "You are not as tough as you think, Eden :)"

      That is a wishful thinking statement, Monica. I'm exactly as tough as I think. Stop trying to remake me in your image so you can feel better about your weaknesses, you little narc.

      Zoe: I think snake was an appropriate statement. I stand by my assessment of you.

      Delete
    15. why do you want to be tough? you lose nothing by acknowledging to yourself that you feel hurt when someone snipes at you. in fact it makes you more tough, not less. it lets you see where the weak spots are. when you see them you can address them, and eventually you don't care.

      feeling it let's you know where the "wound" is, so you can heal it. if you refuse to feel it, then it festers and warps every part of you and everything you do. not good.

      i think you're mad that i sniped at you early on. if you remember, i thought you were a guy. you do come on strong, so no doubt it was tempting to challenge you. strong opinions are a snipe magnet.

      Delete
    16. I just have a very good memory, Zoe. And I never said I want to be tough. It's just the way it is. My mind is very strong. It has beat out insurmountable odds.

      Is there something wrong with knowing I am strong? Does that bother you?

      Delete
    17. Or perhaps knowing how strong you are is too narcissistic? Like knowing that you're attractive is also unacceptable in our society, but accepting that you're not attractive is considered a strength?

      Delete
    18. Eden
      You are hopeless.

      Delete
    19. "Eden
      You are hopeless."

      haha! There is a lot of truth in that statement, Monica. I think it interesting that many people here study so much of psychology, and still believe everything is a choice.

      If that were true, then retardation is also a choice and not a brain deformity. Not everything is within our control. Only control freaks believe that it is.

      I didn't choose to have an attachment disorder. My brain chose that for me.

      Delete
    20. I like debating Zoe on this these issues. She is a control freak. She wants everything to be about choice.

      Delete
    21. hey sometimes i choose to go with the flow!

      :)

      Delete
    22. EdenJune 10, 2012 9:44 AM
      I just have a very good memory, Zoe. And I never said I want to be tough. It's just the way it is. My mind is very strong. It has beat out insurmountable odds.

      Is there something wrong with knowing I am strong? Does that bother you?


      not at all. i am strong too. impossible to tell just from words if you were being defensive or factual.

      acknowledging weak moments makes you stronger, denying them makes you narcy. that's been my experience, maybe not yours. when i would react to criticism in the past it made me think in some way, suddenly, all of me was no good and i would work harder than ever to avoid whatever land mine triggered it. then i realized that was narcy. why should i always hear good things? who want to always be patted on the back anyway? i mean other than a narc!

      so now it's love me, hate me, whatever, fuck... :)

      Delete
    23. it's very freeing.

      also, when you need people to always like you, then a part of you will never trust that the other person can deliver that. if someone acts like a jerk to me, now i figure they will snap out of it, or my magnetic charm will eventually win them over again (unless they're a super narc!). trust i think starts with believing in yourself first.

      Delete
    24. My brain doesn't connect like yours does, Zoe. I got horny when you sniped at me. Because you seemed threatened by me. My brain doesn't process negative reaction like yours. Why have you not figured that out by now?

      Delete
    25. you have a brilliant mind Eden. don't let your brain stem get in its way.

      Delete
  22. Eden . So in real life you might have been hurt by Zoe? But here you aren't?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No.. It's not that simple. In real life I probably would never even end up in a friendship with Zoe. It takes a long time before I'm able to attach myself to other people. And there have been very few that succeeded at doing so.

      It has happened though, they someone has to mean something to me, for what they say and think to matter to me. That's as true for real life as it is here. Once they means something to me, I can be hurt. It may not last very long but it can happen.

      Delete
    2. So it would not have hurt me for her to snipe at me in real life; in other words! haha!
      But I wouldn't have let her get away with it so easy.

      Hope that was more clear.

      Delete
    3. It is clear. I don't like it when people start to mean something to me.

      Delete
    4. Actually, Eden, SW means many things to me. It is a very accepting place, in it's own way, which will sound weird, I know. However, it will have respect for someone who stands his ground and tries to hone himself down from bullshit. You can talk about things, if they are genuine and heartfelt. It has raw honesty. ME does that from the head down, as every organization works, even a blog.

      In my real life, I am changing as I change here and in the other places in my life. My goal is to be myself, in all my settings. I am getting there.

      Delete
    5. "I don't like it when people start to mean something to me."

      Why is that? Is there some kind of harm that comes with people who matter?
      I don't purposely push people away. My brain is not wired to attach myself the correct way. It takes a long time. Years even, for it to happen.

      So the only people I have attached myself to, are people who refused to let go of me, and kept after me over the years no matter what. If I stand a chance at having a mate to settle down with... they must be the kind of person with the patience to wait long enough for that attachment to happen.

      No one has patience like that anymore, though. It's a fast food mentality world we live in. Everyone wants your attachment to them paid in advance.

      Delete
    6. I read about a person to whom this happened. It was a Christian guy whom God told to wait for the girl~ ~ Her name was Dorrie Van Stone.

      Delete
    7. "I don't like it when people start to mean something to me."

      Why is that? Is there some kind of harm that comes with people who matter?

      Yes. Lots. I work on it.

      Delete
  23. Someone said I stay at SW to face monsters. I stay to face the monster in myself, is more like it.

    ReplyDelete

Comments on posts over 14 days are SPAM filtered and may not show up right away or at all.

Join Amazon Prime - Watch Over 40,000 Movies

.

Comments are unmoderated. Blog owner is not responsible for third party content. By leaving comments on the blog, commenters give license to the blog owner to reprint attributed comments in any form.