Thursday, December 18, 2014

The science of evil

I wanted to write a response to this NY Times review of Simon Baron-Cohen's book "The Science of Evil," but I already expressed most of my outrage about the book and it's theory that a lack of empathy is the root of all evil here. Today, however, there was an interesting response to both Baron-Cohen's book and Jon Ronson's "The Psychopath Test" by Yale professor of Psychology Paul Bloom, again in the NY Times. Under the title "I'm Ok, You're a Psychopath":
For Baron-Cohen, evil is nothing more than “empathy erosion.”
***
Now, one might lack empathy for temporary reasons — you can be enraged or drunk, for instance — but Baron-Cohen is most interested in lack of empathy as an enduring trait.
***
For Baron-Cohen, psychopaths are just one population lacking in empathy. There are also narcissists, who care only about themselves, and borderlines — individuals cursed with impulsivity, an inability to control their anger and an extreme fear of abandonment. Baron-Cohen calls these three groups “Zero-Negative” because there is “nothing positive to recommend them” and they are “unequivocally bad for the sufferer and those around them.” He provides a thoughtful discussion of the usual sad tangle of bad genes and bad environments that lead to the creation of these Zero-Negative individuals.

People with autism and Asperger’s syndrome, Baron-Cohen argues, are also empathy-deficient, though he calls them “Zero-Positive.” They differ from psychopaths and the like because they possess a special gift for systemizing; they can “set aside the temporal dimension in order to see — in stark relief — the eternal repeating patterns in nature.” This capacity, he says, can lead to special abilities in domains like music, science and art. More controversially, he suggests, this systemizing impulse provides an alternative route for the development of a moral code — a strong desire to follow the rules and ensure they are applied fairly. Such individuals can thereby be moral without empathy, “through brute logic alone.”

This is an intriguing proposal, but Baron-Cohen doesn’t fully elaborate on it, much less address certain obvious objections. For one thing, if people with autism can use logic to be good without empathy, why can’t smart psychopaths do the same? And what about the many low-functioning individuals on the autism spectrum who lack special savant gifts and don’t spontaneously create moral codes? On Baron-Cohen’s analysis, they would be Zero-Negative. But this doesn’t seem right. Such individuals might be awkward or insensitive, but they are not actively malicious; they are much more likely to be the targets of cruelty than the perpetrators.

I think there’s a better approach, one that involves breaking empathy into two parts, understanding and feeling, as Baron-Cohen himself does elsewhere in his book. Individuals with autism are unable to understand the mental lives of other people. Psychopaths, by contrast, get into others’ heads just fine; they are seducers, manipulators, con men . . . and often worse. . . . The problem with psychopaths lies in their lack of compassion, their willingness to destroy lives out of self-interest, malice or even boredom.
Bloom goes on to criticize Baron-Cohen's theory by pointing out that everyone can suffer from a lack of empathy due to circumstances or sometimes through choice. Unfortunately Bloom does not then take the final step of questioning whether a lack of empathy should actually be the scientific definition of "evil," as Baron-Cohen advocates, but instead makes a nod to the I-hate-sociopaths camp, quoting: "'Why should we care about psychopaths? They don’t care about us.'" At least people are starting to think twice before drinking the Hare et al. Kool-Aid of fear-mongering.

211 comments:

  1. Could the difference between aspergers and sociopathy simply be a difference in how much effort the individual was required to put into being social and charming? If being social is exhausting for someone with aspergers but necessary for survival, could the sociopathy just be a coping mechanism? Say, that Charles mansion developed an interest in physics and had a nice childhood, then he wouldn't have put so much energy into charming people.

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  2. "Could the difference between aspergers and sociopathy simply be a difference in how much effort the individual was required to put into being social and charming?"

    Hardly, a sociopath is much more clever and manipulative than an aspie. Pretty much anything they say is to manage your impression of them, be it good or bad, which takes skill.

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  3. i call this article absolute bullshit.

    why so many unanswered questions?
    because the questions are bullshit.

    it don't matter "what" you are, it only matters if you accept it without prejudice, and in doing so, you see you are actually more than you thought you were. and that's the point.

    our self-awareness grows, and therefore we grow. we have the essence to be whatever the universe needs us to be. that's what matters.

    not some bullshit pseudo-scientific studies by some retard trying to perpetuate the "image" of professorial bullshit.

    obviously, if you respect the well being of all beings you are good.

    fuk all else.

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  4. Aspies tend to have very focused skill sets and, to an extent, the direction of that focus can be chosen or influenced. Why couldn't sociopath just be a person with aspergers who has channeled their focus into the skill of manipulating people? One aspie is obsessed with categorizing frogs and another, the sociopath, is obsessed with playing social games.

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  5. I find it funny that most of the self diagnosed sociopaths come here and say that they knew they were always different and felt left out, that's how they knew they were a sociopath. I thought the sociopaths would come here and say something like they were convicted of something like rape or a few scams in the past and did tons of nasty things to others, and they only became self aware by chance.

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    Replies
    1. Well... I also have faked emotions since very young. I also had known that I'm different from the other people when it comes to feeling emotions. I also have cravings to hurt and even kill someone, for example, my brother. I also can lie and manipulate (not so good in the last, I think) and I don't feel any guilt about that. I also get bored very easily with things and people - I have friends, but I had used them to talk about myself, but when I got bored, I got focused on making friends with other people. The strange here is that I mostly think about this making of friends, without actually doing it.

      I also am not interested in holidays or topics like murders or other bad things that happen in the way that normal people do. The holidays for me are equal to presents and food, and I take the bad news as something funny, because I laugh to them. And, again connected to the lack of empathy, when a friend comes to me and say something bad that happened to them i fake emotions and try to get as much information as possible.

      P. S. I also stalk people on Facebook and in real life.

      Does this make sense to you?

      Delete
    2. I forgot to say that I have a very plastic personality and I can "identify" myself with many people.

      Delete
  6. Is being destroyed always a bad thing? Sometimes destroying someone is the greatest gift they can be given, if it wakes them up from the delusional reality they previously existed in.

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  7. Psychopathic influence is everywhere, all you have to do is turn on your telivision and they are selling cancer causing products, the companies couldn't care less about what happens you. The strange thing is people are giving these psychopaths money to give you a poison that will kill you in the long run. What is the difference between killing you with a gun and killing you slowly with an un natural substance? The person who killed you with a gun may not get away with it.

    Psychopathic serial killers are methodical and so are corporate psychopaths.

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  8. In a perfect world we could scan the brains of politicians and other guys at the top to see what kinds of characters they are. Interview their family, monitor them etc. You may think this is harassment, but why should we sacrifice our health and our money for one rotton selfish prick, one of the people can inflict in direct damage to millions of people if they are powerful enough, surely that is enough to put these people away for good. Who agrees? Obviously the psychopaths will go on the attack against my argument, but before you do think about how much better the world would be even for you psychopaths if you weren't in positions of power, the job just isn't cut out for you. Compassionate people should be in charge of each and every government, logic agrees with me.

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    Replies
    1. It would be great to know what our potential leaders are truly all about before handing them the power, but I hate the idea of scanning brains to determine character. I guess it's theoretically possible, since every interaction with our tangible and environments has to pass through our brains, but I can just see society using the scans to screw over anyone with neurological patterns that aren't common enough to be politically correct yet.
      Anyway, I'd probably rather vote for a sociopath who had a childlike affection for the human pets they'd be ruling than an empath who let their fears and self-righteousness cloud their judgment. It would all depend on the individuals.

      Delete
  9. Anon is obviously Syrian.

    ReplyDelete
  10. You would have to compensate somehow if you were to stop me from aquiring power, give me a couple of million and a mansion and I'll leave you all alone.

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  11. And immunity to rape.

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  12. i had someone accuse me of date rape. Uh -yeah right!

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  13. He comes onto me, I respond favorably, but also with trepidation, I change my mind and want to go for it,i invite him over, he lies down on my bed while I caress him talking nicely and lovingly. Next thing you know he has a premature ejaculation, and then way after that fact proceeds to tell me: "Couldn't you tell I didn't want to be there?"

    This, after explaining to me MANY times in the past how women always complain about him being sexually confident, and alpha, and that they often complain they went too far with him and often feel uncomfortable afterwards.

    He says this Shit: "it isn't like they weren't there...They were There!"

    Fucking hypocrite. Me Date rape? Orly? PREMaTUre ejacULatioN !

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  14. I thought long and hard about that one. i almost bought that shit.

    I was thinking o no, maybe I am a witchy woman.

    I don't buy it.

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  15. I was really pissed off, though, because he actually was resisting me, somewhere there. i think i was a bit pissed because I do think he was saying no in there. But I felt justified in takin what he offered me after coming on to me.

    This was a relative, mind you,who actually talked bout how nice it was to kiss someone who looked like the person in your mirror.
    I ended up in the hospital. This was a planned, predatory seduction on his part, the hospital psych said. i have mixed feelings about this, but i still think it was abuse of power.

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  16. He says this Shit: "it isn't like they weren't there...They were There!

    So I say afterward "You were there!!"

    so who manipulated who?

    I believe I switched it up on the narc. I think I meant to show him a different"mirror"

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  17. His exwives are all depressives. One is a psychotic depressive.

    Pullllease. He was irresponsible with me, and I was going through a very, very vulnerable time.. I have a problem with this all.

    One of my relatives said:

    "He had to have you. he saw you and he had to have you. They were right."

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  18. i tried to explain the confusion and take responsibility in the hospital, but they said "no he is borderline predatory"

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  19. i tried to explain the confusion and take responsibility in the hospital, but they said "no he is borderline predatory"

    ReplyDelete
  20. I see we pretty much agree about Baron-Cohen, M.E..

    If seeing patterns in nature is an autistic trait, then I'm an autistic too, and so are most of my acquaintances, though my Aspie friend may not quite apply.

    I've just been given a copy of Jon Ronson's 'The Psychopath Test' and am looking greatly forward to reading it. Looks like a refreshing input in the 'Psychopaths are the root of all evil' craze.

    Funny though, Hare himself is not a fan of the craze, though at times he seems ambivalent.
    He's had a few "incidents" with psychopaths himself, and we know how that can influence people's view of us. Just take all the "victim" websites.


    Anon 1:33,

    could the sociopathy just be a coping mechanism?

    I guess life itself is a coping mechanism. But if you're thinking about whether sociopathy is something people develop, then that would be correct according to the definitions (there are two mainly used definitions of sociopathy).

    With psychopathy it's different, though. And I know for me personally I've always had the tendency to want to stir up what neurotypicals call 'chaos' and 'disaster', ie., and I've always had a strong drive to control and lead.
    Those things apparently aren't present in the same way in people with Asperger's, as far as I know.

    Say, that Charles mansion developed an interest in physics and had a nice childhood, then he wouldn't have put so much energy into charming people.

    I don't think so. I think we're born with personalities, preferences and tendencies.


    Anon 7:13,

    it don't matter "what" you are, it only matters if you accept it without prejudice, and in doing so, you see you are actually more than you thought you were. and that's the point.

    A propos self help books. ;)

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  21. Anon 7:16,

    Why couldn't sociopath just be a person with aspergers who has channeled their focus into the skill of manipulating people?

    Because aspies are generally not very socially inclined.


    Anon 8:14,

    In a perfect world we could scan the brains of politicians and other guys at the top to see what kinds of characters they are.

    You're talking about a hellish proposition, my friend.
    However, take a look at today's article on my website! ;)


    Bella,

    Fucking hypocrite. Me Date rape? Orly? PREMaTUre ejacULatioN !

    Lol.
    Well, I'm quite good at controlling this kinda thang.
    I've only raped anybody twice in my life, and neither were mistakes. They weren't lust or sexual heat kinda actions either, they were experimental.
    And they happened over twenty years ago!

    I was really pissed off, though, because he actually was resisting me, somewhere there. i think i was a bit pissed because I do think he was saying no in there. But I felt justified in takin what he offered me after coming on to me.

    You go, baby! About time women take things into their hands too once in a while.

    i tried to explain the confusion and take responsibility in the hospital, but they said "no he is borderline predatory"

    That'll be your defense if he takes it to court! :D

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  22. why has everyone started admitting to rape recently?

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  23. oh, a question for zhawq.

    do you think you'll ever end up back in prison, have you changed your ways since being released?

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  24. and another question for zhawq. .

    do you have children?

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  25. I don't know. I know I never thought of rape as a huge deal, its kind of just getting in a fight with some sex. Date rape is like getting knocked out then kicked when your down. People make such a big deal out of sex

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  26. Bella I bet this was is person who prances around in religious garb

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  27. anon @ 8:14 - i'm totally with u!

    so many fukheds up in gov't fucking people worldwide.

    i say kill all these cheney clones.

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  28. Ukan = huge faggot.

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  29. Zhawq said:
    "That'll be your defense if he takes it to court! :D"



    Aw Sharkie,
    He's in psychological jail already.
    I made sure of that.

    Thank you for your support !

    ReplyDelete
  30. I'm not even gonna talk to you, Math Wiz

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  31. lol, mwwaaahahahahaha

    good!

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  32. ::laughs:: I’m cursed.
    … because there is “nothing positive to recommend them” and they are “unequivocally bad for the sufferer and those around them.”
    Fuck you.

    So Aspies are ok because they can be talented in one area to the exclusion of all other things? I’m talented in a multitude of areas. Apparently diversity is not welcomed in Baron-Cohens world.

    I somehow doubt aspies are looking for fairness, so much as driven by a single minded inability to waver from the rigid line they cling too. They are so in their own world that other people don’t register, and therefore they don’t have the same ability to interact and affect those around them like the Zero-Negatives do.

    That’s why they get a ‘positive’ spin. They don’t have the same ability to project their life away from themselves in order to ‘intentionally’ hurt or manipulate anyone. It’s utterly ‘accidental’ because they aren’t programmed to interact properly with others. They can’t see beyond their own sphere and have no inherent interest, ability to be interested, in those around them. We can.

    "'Why should we care about psychopaths? They don’t care about us.'"

    What are we? 12? Because one person does something do not make it right. Doesn’t make it wrong, but this kind of circular logic is asinine. Also the sweeping generalizations and stigmatizations of this man are astounding.

    Lacking empathy does not make a person evil (if you subscribe to concepts such as good and evil). What makes a person evil is how they choose to live their lives. People can live lives empathy-less and be lauded as exceedingly productive members of society…. As long as no one knows that this person is driven by purely logical pursuits and not those of a compassionate nature.

    Maybe that’s something. Knowing a person is ‘zero-negative’ automatically inspires a stereotype. Instead of actually taking the time to get to know the person sitting across from you it’s much easier to lump them into a category and dismiss them.

    Forbid they should take a look at other motivating factors in these individuals lives. My empathy may be skewed but all of my actions are not motivated by my skewed empathy. Hell, most of my actions are not driven by empathy or compassion, because while yes, this is an obvious ‘malfunction’ of social acceptability, I pretty much go about my day like any other person and no NT-empath goes about constantly consciously asserting their compassion. That notion is silly.

    People want sympathy and when they meet people that can’t provide it, they get upset because they have to face their own demons instead of having someone else soothe their fraying sympathies.

    Fuck all this.

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  33. “Is being destroyed always a bad thing? Sometimes destroying someone is the greatest gift they can be given, if it wakes them up from the delusional reality they previously existed in.”

    This is going to be an extremely unpopular response from many, but I rather agree with you. Without being pushed, you can never truly reach your full potential. I’m not the type to intentionally destroy someone, but I’ve been on the other side where someone has attempted to do this to me. They did not succeed and while the ordeal was an absolute nightmare, no one will ever be able to break my defenses like that again. I learned a lot. I became much stronger for it.
    In order to build muscles you first have to create little micro tears in your tissue so that your body rebuilds it with stronger scar tissue. This can be like a mental scar tissue strengthening your psyche. Of course, most people don’t have the ability to not be devastated permanently by such things.

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  34. So math wiz, WHERE DO YOU LIVE!?

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  35. what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

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  36. @mathwiz

    OHHH. Me too.

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  37. well we're dining out

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  38. Let me get this straight. You molested a relative of yours Bella? At first I thought it was some wierdo date you went on, but the relative part was what stuck out at me. You must be american. Where do you live arkansas in the traiker park. Bella. That sounds like a girl that would fuck her brother.
    Bella what's going on girl? Why are we scooping the bottom of the barrel? Do you really need a pitty fuck that badly.
    Zhawq why do you respond to every single comment on here no matter how benign?
    I'm not walking down the road of rape. I have enough dangerous hobbies. People in my jail kill rapists and child molestors. I approve. We need some honor among thieves.

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  39. "Could the difference between aspergers and sociopathy simply be a difference in how much effort the individual was required to put into being social and charming?"

    I had this discussion last night with my aspie friend. They have compassion. They lack the ability to see what other people are thinking or feeling though. Simply because they think that everyone in the world thinks like them. They think that the way they think is right and everyone must think the same way because it is right.

    Now on my side of the border I have the ability to know what is going through your head. IN FACT! I not only can figure it out but I might know what is going through your head better than you. However, I lack all compassion.

    "People in my jail kill rapists and child molestors. I approve. We need some honor among thieves."

    ORLYYYY! Honor among thieves huh? What's next compassion?

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  40. No compassion is what keeps them in protective custody so we can't get them. Now and again the guards slip them into general population so the convicts can have at them.
    Snitching, raping, and child molestation are no nos. You go in with that jacket its over with when you check in the shotcaller with your paperwork. In my gang you aren't allowed to do drugs either or you get disciplined for being weak, but our rivals don't have that rule (which is funny since they have a more rigid structure).

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  41. "In my gang you aren't allowed to do drugs either or you get disciplined for being weak, but our rivals don't have that rule (which is funny since they have a more rigid structure)."

    UKan = pathological lying PUSSY!

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  42. "IN FACT! I not only can figure it out but I might know what is going through your head better than you. However, I lack all compassion."

    this is not possible, you cant know what someone feels if you never felt it, unless you are deluding yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Anonymous said...
    Compassionate people should be in charge of each and every government, logic agrees with me.


    intelligent people should be in charge of each and every government. they would be able to make tough decisions without compassion getting in the way.

    ReplyDelete
  44. General comment re. "The Science of Evil." The title itself is an oxymoron. If it deals in moral judgements, it isn't science. This is just another polarizing dichotomy (good here, evil there) dressed up as "fact," exactly what the world needs least.

    Frustrating.

    Psychology really needs to start labeling its separate disciplines: neurological studies (genuine science), for instance, vs. philosophy, opinion, and speculation. When people hear the word "science," it immediately translates as "factual information," often without further question or study, a cultural knee-jerk response..

    The bulk of psychology truly isn't science. Obviously, neither is this work by Baron-Cohen. The sad thing is that's he's given free rein to imply that it is genuinely objective.

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  45. No you can't figure out what's going on in someones head anonymous because you are, like most, a complete fool.

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  46. here is poem:

    Ukan up in the joint sukin cock
    no, no he doesn't wear socks
    he smells like shit, as he never bathes.
    after he gets fuked by the other gays.
    he likes the joint, and claims he's in a gang.
    but he only suk their cocks, mang.
    what a loser, a dumbie, a fukinn pusee.
    yes, yes, that is Ukan pure and clear.
    but truth be told he will always b a queer.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Ha ha. I find it funny how you talk about homosexual men, dicks, sucking cock, and getting fucked up the ass all day everyday, yet you call people on here faggots and queers. All you can think about is cock, which is obvious since you can spell that but you can't spell pussy.

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  48. callous child raping drug addicted socioJune 18, 2011 at 3:31 PM

    UKAN HAS MORALS!!!! WEAK!!!!!!

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  49. 'they would be able to make tough decisions without compassion getting in the way'

    Just because you are intelligent doesn't mean you aren't evil. So what you want a guy like Donald trump in charge who doesn't give a fuck about anyone? We need compassionate people plane and simple, you may admire sociopaths but they aren't cut out for government, history is my witness.

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  50. Playing stupid doesn't work if you are in actuality a idiot.

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  51. I'm sure the working class sociopaths would agree with me when I say we need to remove their kind from the top, millions shouldn't have to suffer for the sake of one or two parasites, unless I'm the parasite.

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  52. That wasn't for you anon 3:33

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  53. Lacking empathy is about as intelligent as you can get, shh though, don't let the secret get out.

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  54. "which is obvious since you can spell that but you can't spell pussy."

    still, the poem stands as truth.

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  55. Imagine that, looking in the news every day and seeing some bastards face that YOU KNOW you are 100 times superior than, yet he has all this power, isn't it enough to make you murderously angry? He's banging the women you want to bang, he's buying the mansions you want to buy, yet YOU KNOW you are superior.

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  56. another poem 4 the gayman:

    ukan, poor and broke
    wishes he had money as he takes another toke.
    no, not pot, but crack smoke.
    yes, that all he can afford.
    a 2 dollar rock, he stole from a whore.
    who was actually himself offering more.
    but he stole from himself to pay the bills.
    cuz he thought it would work, as he is stupid and from the hills.
    oh, wait, time for more pills, that Ukan sucks down to mend his ills.

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  57. Let me fill you in on something you fake. The reason you got paid such little mind on here was because you try so hard to fit in the criteria that people can tell your just some muppet.
    Rapists, child molestors, snitches and gang drop outs are weak. In my countrys prisons it is mandatory to get at them whenever you can. The courts order that the inmate can't be put into that situation so they generally put then in protective custody yards. Do you know why? Because they are weak. They look and act like a bunch of pathetic wierdos. When the guards let the convicts have at them they scream like little girls.
    Prisons are run by gangs here. People in there wield power over several prisons from a cell in the hole. Those are people who have real power. People who manipulate guards to pass messages with hits on them and sneak dvd players and drugs in. Those fucking rapists are so powerless they can't even manipulate a female. The child molesters? What a joke. They are all the same. Muppets with a bald head and glasses. Uncle Fiddles. Ha ha. Uncle fiddles get shivvied up when he checks in.

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  58. yeah, u the only one gettin shivied up.

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  59. do you live somewhere in south america, ukan?

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  60. Ukan by the way you write you seem like an extremely sexy man.

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  61. Rip( who's telling the truth)June 18, 2011 at 4:45 PM

    I'VE NEVER RAPED ANYONE (for reals

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  62. "Ukan by the way you write you seem like an extremely sexy man."

    Ukan posing anonymously

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  63. Why do you call him Uncle Fiddles. Is he your uncle, or just a guy they call uncle?

    ReplyDelete
  64. I've come to chew bubble gum and kick ass...

    And I'm all out of bubble gum

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  65. Rip do you literally sit all day and just type stupid shit? I bet you got gang raped by all the males in your family when younger and thats why you are so retarded.

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  66. Anon 5:59,
    why has everyone started admitting to rape recently?

    They have??


    Haven & someone else,

    “Is being destroyed always a bad thing? Sometimes destroying someone is the greatest gift they can be given, if it wakes them up from the delusional reality they previously existed in.”

    This is going to be an extremely unpopular response from many, but I rather agree with you. Without being pushed, you can never truly reach your full potential.


    That's what I try to get people to understand. Sometimes I succeed, mostly when I have them one on one (which isn't surprising, of course).

    Good to hear others get it too.


    UKan,
    Zhawq why do you respond to every single comment on here no matter how benign?

    Cause I'm such a sucker for sweetness!

    People in my jail kill rapists and child molestors.

    As did they where I've done time. And I've helped them throw a couple of very entertaining birthday parties, I might add. Quite fun too!

    (Hm, I think I'll write about the two rapes in one of the upcoming articles.)


    Anon 10:09,

    Not to be rude, pal. But you should post those question at my website , not at M.E.'s. That's (also) what it's there fore, and you're welcome to stop by.


    Anon 7:45,
    I thought the sociopaths would come here and say something like they were convicted of something like rape or a few scams in the past and did tons of nasty things to others,

    What!?? I would never say I'd something nasty like that! I'm a nice guy, you know!!... And I was never left out, I made sure of that. lol


    Kesu,
    They have compassion

    The aspie I know is funny that way. He has a lot of compassion, but only for a very few select things. Cats being one. He's cold as ice towards my dogs, f.x., and likewise towards other people's kids - which is unusual, since most people love kids no matter who's kids they are.

    Personally I can be friendly even to a spider. But it's not really the same as compassion, because I don't feel sad when/if they die or are in pain.

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  67. "because I don't feel sad when/if they die or are in pain."

    nobody "should" feel "sad", death and pain is as common as breathing, why should it matter to anyone else emotionally?

    but what if someone, tried hard and unfairly lost a contest because of a bullshit referee, then would you care?

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  68. Anon 3:31,
    UKAN HAS MORALS!!!! WEAK!!!!!!

    No, it's a very smart strategy that every sociopath knows about. It's what keeps their gang/group/firm going and internal bonds strong!

    Anon 3:35,
    I'm sure the working class sociopaths would agree with me when I say we need to remove their kind from the top, millions shouldn't have to suffer for the sake of one or two parasites, unless I'm the parasite.

    Oh absolutely, as a principle, yes.
    But I really don't care much, because I always survive, and I survive well!

    Anon 3:03,
    this is not possible, you cant know what someone feels if you never felt it, unless you are deluding yourself.

    Wrong. How do you think we manage to manipulate so well? I can steer most people easier than I steer a car, and that's not because I 'felt' what they feel. It's because I know how to decipher their signals, spoken and otherwise. You can learn all that, just like a good king knows the hearts of his people even though he's never been a subject himself.

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  69. Adam\Rip\Anon\fakeUkan you are a bad apple among thieves. There is no power in pissing in the pool only immature weakness.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anon earlier.

    I check the post when i have free time and then say stupid shit.

    ReplyDelete
  71. I think God the Father is dyslexic.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Hey, off-topic but... I was wondering do you guys (socios) find that you cannot enjoy certain genres of literature because you can't identify with the characters? Maybe you like reading history, politics, autobiography (or maybe not) but literature just doesn't interest you?

    I am thinking some along the classic lines such as Thomas Hardy, Charles Dickens, Edith Wharton, Walt Whitman, Flaubert, Tolstoy and maybe some more recent ones like Something Happened by Joseph Heller and The French Lieutenant's Woman where some amount of inter-personal relationship is integral to the story.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  73. Rip the forgottenJune 18, 2011 at 6:37 PM

    Im sorry everyone but it is time for Rip to go. He must leave, never to return. This will be my last thread for Rip is tired and it is time for him to settle down and start a new family, without Rib or Rip Jr. I must accept they are gone and I say "farewell everyone, Good night and Good luck.

    ReplyDelete
  74. The patron saint of dyslexiaJune 18, 2011 at 6:37 PM

    Trying to be a martyr Rippy?

    ReplyDelete
  75. 'paths lack empathy, meaning they don't care about the well being of other beings, unless they "want" to use that other being for some purpose.

    it means 'paths fuck people over to get what they want, since what difference does it make?

    these 'paths need to be exterminated on a mass scale.

    neo-hitler will see to it this happens, as the 'path is, in spirit, the neo-jew.

    ........................./´¯/)
    ......................,/¯..//
    ...................../..../ /
    ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`•¸
    ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
    ........('(...´(..´......,~/'...')
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    ReplyDelete
  76. Good night, Rip. Sweet dreams. :)

    ReplyDelete
  77. The Man formerly known as RipJune 18, 2011 at 10:26 PM

    What you have all witnessed here is the birth and death of a man named Rip. Everything this man said was a lie and all stories were fabrications. Yet touched everyone in their own special way. I'm sure many of you have stories about Rip and some of you may even try to keep his spirit alive by posting fake comments under his name, but Rip died at 6:37 pm on June 18 2011. We should each honor him in our own ways and post comments on what your favorite thing about Rip was, you may do say on any website you please. I may post other comments under different names but they will be nothing compared to the greatness of the shenanigans that Rip got himself into. Let's have three rips for Rip.

    R.I.P
    Rip

    ReplyDelete
  78. ww.youtube.com/watch?v=rTugz1TYbM0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    ReplyDelete
  79. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTugz1TYbM0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    ReplyDelete
  80. Death is never the end . . .

    ReplyDelete
  81. I think that while some people here are horrible bastards who I'd avoid like the plague in real life, I don't think that they are sociopaths.

    Some have openly said that some crimes are not ok with them while others are- why do sociopaths distinguish between severity of crimes? As long as not affect them, why should they care.

    Seems to me that just because you are a badass bastard doesn't mean you are a sociopath.

    ReplyDelete
  82. is this the mind reader in action again



















    lol

    ReplyDelete
  83. Zhawq,
    I'm still not convinced that sociopaths are not just a subset of aspies. You wrote that my thesis is impossible because aspies are not nearly ambitious enough and because aspies are socially disinclined. I argued that some aspies may be ambitious in non-social, more inoccuous pursuits while others, the sociopathic subset of the aspie type, are simply ambitious in a social direction, attempting to compensate for or overcompensate for what they lack.

    ReplyDelete
  84. On second thought, maybe kesu was right. Aspies have compassion but no understanding. Socios have understanding but no compassion

    ReplyDelete
  85. What interests me here is that the term sociopath is thrown around so casually in the news. Casey Anthony, for example. I have an easy time understanding not caring whether people die who I don't care about. I can't imagine ow a mother could kill a child that she seemed to love and take care of. It just seems biologically impossible given the amounts of oxytocin involvedmin that relationship. This Casey woman nursed that baby and the amounts of oxytocin involved there are intense. I had never given 2 thoughts about charity before, but when I was on oxytocin overload with my second baby, I found myself giving 100 bucks to a stranger with a charitable organization. That's an intense chemical.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Oh please, not all women who aggress newborns and infants are sociopaths. But academics do not, and will not, challenge the maternal ideal.

    The maternal ideal of the child-mother bond exists, of course, but it's current *absolute* form was based on observations of animals and was first reinforced to coincide with the division of labour between the sexes. Have you noticed how the instinctual attachment needs of babies are increasingly reversed in much literature so that they become the instinctual responses of mothers?

    Women cannot socially abdicate motherhood as men can socially abdicate fatherhood. Many women feel giving a child up for adoption as a deep personal failure because if the child can thrive without them they have been unsuccessful maternally – the self-concept becomes intolerable. Most women perceive babies as possessions that are owned by them. Some women, like when they suicide with their children, see it as altruistic – they’re saving their child from an unknown future without them. Infant abandonment and killing were rampant among aristocratic women in ancient Greece and Rome – even though servants could have looked after them. Infanticide has also been used throughout history as birth control and today in many poorer cultures babies are simply not fed after they’re born.

    They *absolutist* myth of maternal grace is reinforced in Western laws which support hormones as the cause of all maternal aggression against infants. Yes, there's sleep deprivation, post-partum depression, post-partum psychosis and all too often no help available for women who go over the edge. Depression also results in a lot of child neglect whereby babies die. Extended families don't exist any more to take over and socially isolating new mothers is cruel, obscene, and foolish. But not all women are 'mad' who attack their own flesh and blood. There are also women who don't want babies, who have the baby for all sorts of psychosocial reasons, and still don't want them when they’re born.

    I don't see what's so remarkable about this - I hear many stories from women who hate being mothers but society doesn't. Just look at the figures on abuse and neglect or how often SIDS occurs in poor areas where infanticide was previously high.

    As for empathy and motherhood, becoming a mother makes women more empathetic to *their* family's needs for survival. It actually makes mothers deeply selfish in a communal sense in that they turn inward to their families and away from anyone who is not of *their* tribe. So they would only be likely to give to a charity that would benefit their baby or their family because they're always conscious of securing their survival.

    ReplyDelete
  87. The mothers killing newborns thing seems somewhat common as does the Medea type reaction, but in the Anthony case, where it seemed like the maternal bond was formed, I can't imagine a mother killing her child just because she wanted to party and feel young and free again.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Okay, I'm now getting that a sociopath could develop the perspective that she owned the child and would rather kill it than give it up. But still, to do that for the sake of partying?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anon 6:27,
    do you guys (socios) find that you cannot enjoy certain genres of literature because you can't identify with the characters?

    [Not socio, but psycho(path)]

    Yes, very often!


    FuckAll,

    Yes, especially you(rself)!


    Anon 5:35,
    I'm still not convinced that sociopaths are not just a subset of aspies.

    I disagree. I think Hans Asperger was right when he said they're autistics. But I'm not an expert, and I don't think I know enough to really give a hypothesis.
    My aspie friend is very different from me, not only in how social we are. No, there's a lot more to it than them being just a subset of sociopaths.

    If anything they might be somehow related to psychopaths, but again, I don't think so. I believe it's symptomatic. It reminds me of how many people think Malignant Narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are all the same. Psychopaths have behaviors that seem like narcissism, but our driving emotional basis are very, very different from narcissists'.


    Anon 5:42,
    Aspies have compassion but no understanding. Socios have understanding but no compassion

    Well put.

    ReplyDelete
  90. If we all thought the same it would be a boring world!

    (SHAKES HEAD)Who do you people think you are that think you have to teach another person a lesson?
    Or is this how you subsitute your mind with the dealings of what you do to others?

    I am gald I have empathy, passion, and deep feelings! For those of you that have to intentionally hurt another with no remorse well guess what you are onr lonley indiavidual. I would never loose salt out of my eyes balls for you no matter what you did to me!

    There are no perfect parents or nor perfect person. I will tell you this if you are happy with yourself great if not CHANGE seek help it is out there!

    For those of you mentally challanged people that say you did ill-will to other peeps. Come on over I can super glue you to a saddel upon a fine steed. Then chain you up in the hog pen and turn my back.
    Thanks you just feed my hogs n pigs now I can feed the people taht deserve it!

    ReplyDelete
  91. Man
    I came to this thread thinking I was a S and now am afraid I am a BPD.
    An S is sexier--Waaaaaay lol

    ReplyDelete
  92. Oh, brother.

    Asperger Syndrome and ASPD have completely different psychological roots, people.

    It's not that people with Asperger's don't have any empathy. We have a hard time empathizing with people, yes, but a lot of it is due to the fact that we are not neurotypical and that causes us to have SEEM like we have a dearth of empathy, because we don't understand what it's like to be neurotypical. In reality, the difference is not our talent for "systemizing," it's the fact that it's an entirely different disorder.

    Aspies are, for example, described as being very loyal--this is atypical of the sociopath.

    ReplyDelete
  93. As the mother of a diagnosed 'ASD' child I can ASSURE you they ARE able to socially manipulate. Look up the criteria for PDA, (Pathological Demand Avoidance)which is now being recognised as part of the spectrum, and their social manipulation can be seen as their greatest 'skill.' The manipulation is seen as mostly being used to avoid any demands of others being placed on them. My son can manipulate psychologists attempts to counsel him and turn their sessions around on them. Not because he is only interested in what HE wants to talk about, but because he is NOT going to comply with what THEY want him to talk about. He takes great pleasure in seeking out and destroying others in the playground. He recently got into a situation at one of his clubs where 2 older boys (4 years older) thought they could wind him up. His reponse was to punch one of them in the face. When discussing this later and why he thought he shouldn't have done it he had no interest in how they may have felt, he was ONLY bothered that there were 2 of them who were much older who MAY have overpowered him...he is devising a strategy to continue his battle that covers his arse! My son is 8 and can get most adults wondering what the hell just happened and he finds it highly amusing. My son is only loyal to himself. If he protected me from harm sometime in the future it would not be because he felt any loyalty, it would merely be to ensure I would be able to continue providing for him!

    ReplyDelete
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  100. Cohen's just pissy because he was probably on the receiving end of a socio(psycho)pathic mind fuck at one time or another.

    ReplyDelete
  101. GM, SW.

    You see from the remarks what a planet this used to be like in 2011.

    Zhawq character was this often-lecturing formerly-imprisoned self-proclaimed bad ass male psychopath. And, if I recall correctly later s/he was outed to be a significantly over-weight female posting all over the web, or something like that. UKan had a ball with that.

    OldandWise asked how long I've been here. I've been here on and off for at least seven years. I got here at a time I was very ignorant about sociopathy and had already been shaken by two sociopaths in my 30s (but don't get me wrong I probably shook them just as badly in the process, I do have the warrior gene, and am learning not to use it by better choosing what not to fight.)

    Here, I used to fight UKan at the beginning, he used to irritate me because his power came from creating fear in people. Overtime I started understanding his world/morals/rules better and realized his commitment to seeing truth, and became more accepting of who he is.

    It's fair to say I was getting better identifying who I was as well, which boils down to maybe I wasn't such an angel that I thought I was in addition to a need to stop trying to be an angel. Fair to say that I was leaving the black and white good versus evil feeling behind and learning to see potential of evil in everyone just as potential of good in everyone, including myself, and trying to develop a tool base focused on protecting me as an individual as opposed to my ideals in life.

    I had formerly become too much of a concept person, leaving the human being behind in the name of humanity. I'm still ;earning to balance that, this is one life we live and as idealistic as I am, the earth has done cycles of warming and cooling and it'll do it again. Nothing is as important as people make it to be, and everything is important at the same time. There really is ying yang, lol..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Zhwaq outing really is quite a funny read - I liked the "addicted to cheeseburgers" snark - I still chuckle at that one. Must have been "fun" in real time...

      Delete
    2. Hi Sceli,

      "I do have the warrior gene"

      Have you verified that with genetic testing? I'm curious because I'm interested in looking into what alleles I have - not just the MAOA gene either.

      If so, I would be interested to hear what you've learned - both from the testing itself, but in the process of being tested - all that data ownership stuff... Any advice?

      Delete
    3. :) I'll be darn. That's a phrase people use that resonated with me. I didn't realize they could mean there is indeed such a gene identified as a warrior gene. I just googled and learned about MAO-A. Live and learn.

      So, no idea if I have it or not. It says the gene helps against cancer too.

      Hmmm, I've been 'mentally' trying to suppress the thing, maybe I shouldn't (as I truly believe mental messages are somehow decoded in the body).

      Why, did you consider being tested? Why would you want to do that, other than curiosity?

      Delete
    4. I just found a great use for this gene in case things get reallyout of whack, lol:

      Legal implications[edit]
      In a 2009 criminal trial in the United States, an argument based on a combination of "warrior gene" and history of child abuse was successfully used to avoid a conviction of first-degree murder and the death penalty; however, the convicted murderer was sentenced to 32 years in prison.[45][46]


      Delete
    5. Hi Sceli,

      Yep - there are about a half dozen that come up a lot: MAOA, DRD4, SLC6A, COMT, BNDF (?), and some others that come to mind just now. They associate certain alleles with different traits - really fascinating.

      It's this angle (ALA James Fallon) of neuro imaging, genetics, and such that seems to be telling a much more coherent story about what is going on with folks like us (among others) than what the APA has been peddling for the past couple of decades.

      There's a sort of fun hour long commercial for one of those genetic testing services masquerading as a documentary with Henry Rollins called Born to Rage, I think - it's a sort of fun examination of the intersection of science, commerce, and culture.

      Delete
    6. And yeah - curiosity really - I'm a big 'ol nerd. 8)~

      Delete
    7. "and trying to develop a tool base focused on protecting me as an individual as opposed to my ideals in life. "

      hi Sceli, this has been an important realization for me too.

      Delete
    8. HI, DocSciFi. Like you I also had a very early committment to science (mathematics) and in some ways this blinded me, particularly because I was good at it and stayed very focused on it for a long time. While others were busy learning about life, how to deal with failure, developing resistance what not I satyed sheltered and remained oblivious to that sort of growth. I had the feeling something was not right but could not really put it altogether.

      My waking up did not start till late 20s and a very slow start at that.

      Scientific curiosity is so capturing, yet I really am not sure if this is a chicken and egg thing or not. I mean, did we choose science because we were sort of gifted/autistic (I use the term in the most flexible sense) and able to remain focused or was science really so capturing if one was capable of pursuing it (with the pumped ego by the others telling us what a good job we were doing).

      You look at the later years of most scientists and you see major pain if they woke up one day and realized real life (again, using the term loosely, and even if they formed families they may still have slept through a lot of real life) passed by them.

      Einstein found his way to spiriruality, several others suffered from schizophrenia, depression, npd, you name it.

      Well, I'm just speaking with feelings when I say these things, not a result of any sort of research.

      Delete
  102. I'll have to go read this legendary Genghis Ukan fellers stuff...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. First comment I read by UKan : “Zhawq why do you respond to every single comment on here no matter how benign?I'm not walking down the road of rape. I have enough dangerous hobbies. People in my jail kill rapists and child molestors. I approve. We need some honor among thieves.” Heh, prison culture. Chomos gotta go in to protective custody, but here’s my question now. I keep hearing even from socios themselves that they are “amoral”. Isn’t that a moral code?

      Delete
    2. Hi Dr G.

      UKan is a good read - interesting character. I've been enjoying the old posts - far more drama back in that day.

      I'm not sure it's so much a "moral code" as having a ready supply of fodder to take their aggressions out on and they've all been able to convince themselves that it's "useful" and therefore "moral." And few others in polite society seem inclined to argue with them about it.

      At least that's how I read it -

      @Sceli: It seems like the Dr. Phil show was something of a turning point on the forum - is that about right? I got the impression that quite a few folks were disappointed when their first look didn't meet with their expectations.

      Delete
    3. Exactly. I was one of those who tended to think ME was a female, and there were many who would fight against that notion. So, those got kind of shocked when learning ME is a woman.

      I got shocked because of the wig, I thought that really was a stupid choice. I also got shocked because ME did not carry herself as strongly as I'd have expected when dealing with Dr. Phil. I was imagining a more powerful presence, mentally and physically, and that wig really made her look phony. She should've gone for some heavy make-up and black wig instead, like Cruela, lol... I guess she was trying to emphasize anybody could be sociopath with her selection of style but that was poor marketing for book sales.

      But, you know what happened that amazed me the most. SW people actually let go of the whole distraction very quickly and assumed a similar position to what they've been assuming (as in fast denial type correction) yet some slowly fizzled out from the scene (stronger characters) some championed ME's choice (weaker characters).

      Erin, who I remember was pretty sure ME was a man, became a champion. She indluged in reading the book and further became teacher's pet (as in ME's adoring fan).

      I have not yet read the book, I did not think the book or her outing was in ME's best interest. I thought she was acting out, that she was hurt by what was happening in her career and she let her guard down when she got the offer from a school near and dear to her tribe. She overestimated herself, and that school pulled off.

      So, in a way I was really sad for her at the time. I got over that by now, she did what she wanted to do, and it's what it is. I'll read the book eventually, haven't bought it yet.

      Delete
    4. For me, it was the book first and then the web site and forum. So I came to this with very different "expectations."

      I can't really speculate on her intentions or if she was acting out or what. However, I have given some thought to the whole wig and get up. I am not saying I would have made different choices at that time (more a statement about my own ignorance of the topic, really), but seeing how things played out I think I would say either go all in or not at all. The internet will find you - better to just own it. Also, I agree that if a get up is absolutely necessary, being more artful plays better in the media - but again, we are getting close to intentions, so...

      It's the half measure that really hurt her, in my opinion - at least where the TV appearance is concerned.

      She strikes me as a tough gal and I'm not really one for pity. She's also smart and educated and it does seem that her family and support structure have remained intact, so - she'll be OK I expect.

      And, it's not like I haven't had "delusions of adequacy" at some rather unfortunate times - not like the TV appearance, but enough to help remind me that I overestimate myself too.

      Delete
    5. Hi HL, I agree with your sentiment. ME's debut with the wig etc. looks to me careless, as if she didn't understand the situation, it's implications, or didn't really think it through. I guess she either didn't have a public relations person to help her or whoever it was didn't do their job.

      Delete
  103. Nihilistic Mind
    if you see this comment, please check survival of the fittest for my reply ;)
    thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Hahaha. Fear mongering is right. It's a quick buck though, can't blame the idea.

    Empathy is debatable on usefulness though. Plenty of dumb shit happens regularly because someone "cared."

    Intention is less than action in my book. It matters not what you feel but moreso on what you do.

    ReplyDelete
  105. OK - my first thought was, M.E. must be bored and swatting at hornets nests...this repost is likely to get folks worked up. Hell, it annoyed me...

    First, I actually like the orthogonal construct of affective empathy versus cognitive empathy. It may not be a perfect model, but it is a useful one.

    Where Ali G's cousin makes my teeth itch is the thick layering of his morality and judgment (some I think he believes and some I think is for show) that really doesn't do anyone any good. (well, maybe him...but wouldn't that make him look like he was behaving as...what does he call us? Zero Negative...)

    Again, it strikes me as something a homophobic doctor would have said about AIDS patients in the 80's - there was no shortage of people proclaiming that gay people deserved the disease and to die horrible deaths...but, "fund my research so we can all get back to not worrying about who we hope in the sack with." Like Hare - hypocritical fuckers!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. HLH,

      I was mostly trained by Haven (very attractive female) on what BPD is, and was convinced that the root problem with BPD is extreme fear of abandonment and tough assumption for all around BPD that one only proves his/her love to BPD as long as one does exactly what BPD wants from him or her, a lot of control and a lot of manipulation, alot of frustration, acting out, potential violence that could impact themselves (cutting) or others (fighting, throwing objects).

      Now, how exactly you see BPD in you? Are you thinking because you have some feelings you cannot be a socio and that leaves you with BPD? The reason I'm asking this is I'm having a hard time about a man I know in deciding which way he's leaning more.

      Delete
    2. I have banged around Haven's site and she seems pretty impressive. I've appreciated what she's pulled together. Her site's been quiet for a while now - I hope she gets back into it - I like reading her stuff.

      BPD and me...hmmm...the short version is the abandonment/trust - that's the primary trigger - that whole hungry ghost thing. From there flow the manipulations, the rages, and all of the typical destructive behavior. The impulsiveness is/was a big factor, as well as a high need for stimulation - the more extreme, the better.

      I also tend to shut down emotionally - a LOT. It's an adaptation to cope with the "big feelings" that tend to drive the impulsivity.

      There are also NPD and ASPD aspects to my personality as well. Humility does not come naturally to me - I have to work at it and I am often "faking it" and it is possible to trigger me by assaulting my ego - not as easy as it used to be, but not impossible either.

      The ASPD has to do with my flexibility with the law. I can justify breaking laws very easily also. And, as I have indicated, when it's "knives out and grinning," I usually don't have too tough a time with my conscience - so there is that interpersonal boundary thing.

      Then there are the comorbidities - MDD being the one that got me sort things out.

      I use the term BPD because it's the closest thing to what describes the broad brush stroke of how I live my life, but it's really a pretty lousy label - all of them are.

      The ICD is slightly better, but I still see the real future in the biological basis - that's where the real progress is (Dr. Linehan's work not withstanding - I've watched a couple of her lectures and I sort of have a crush on her 8)~).

      I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axel with trying to pick the "right label." What is far more useful I think is understanding what information they use (cognitive versus affective) to make choices. I would then break behaviors into strategies/tactics - these are the sorts of manipulations (e.g. gas lighting, emotional outbursts, chaos creation, etc.) they use to get what they want. Finally, I would pay attention to how they process the results and consequences of their actions - regret, remorse, ...self flagellation? blame assignment.

      This is a much more "operational" approach to coping with "difficult people" in my experience. However, I'm not sure what you're after. I try to keep as much of that sort of thing in my professional world - at home...not conducive to a "happy home."

      Delete
    3. I'm trying to sort out how to behave to stay on the good side of BPD. But with someone who does not agree with his/her BPD, or is completely ignorant of personality disorders. Meaning, taking the issue head on and talking it out is not an option.

      Like when the manipulations start hitting my way what should I do? Here are different types of manipulations and what I mostly do (as not knowing what really the right strategy is I'm more willing to slack on pure strategies):
      1. When BPD is complaining, listing emotional issues caused by say poor health or grief. And, timing is just when I feel good in general, so there is that guilt-inducing sense in the complaint.
      What do I do? I used to delve into the misery and offer remedies and all would be turned down. Now, I don't. I wait till it's my turn to say something and I step out of the situation.

      2. When I have something to say but afraid it would trigger a rage in the BPD.

      It's like walking on egg-shells. Extremely difficult to see what would come back at me. In the past I was unaware, so would trigger a lot of these rages and join the fight. Now, I really don't want to. So, I minimize contact, but I'd like to know if there are any alternatives to minimize contact, or constant fighting.

      I'm not sure if you are this sort of BPD. Your examples are so general, it's hard for me to understand your behavior. If you were a true BPD you'd be occasionally screaming at your children for doing something that's quite ok to do 80% of the time. It's that 20% where the mines are, and your children would've been working on egg shells.

      If in a professional set-up you occasionally scream at incompetence that to me is an anger control issue, not exactly a sign of BPD. I don't know if I'm making any sense here. But, my goal is to increase contact and to lose fear of BPD rage. Maybe I should minimize the significance of that rage. It's just so different than what I'd do that I perceive it as major lack of respect, major sign of weakness, and also potential physical threat to me. I have a feeling if I were a 6'2" male I wouldn't have much cared, but that's not necessarily true either. We all watched Fatal Attraction.

      Delete
    4. Yeah - taking it head on with an unaware PD is likely to not go so well.

      Well, like you, there's the vale of vagueness we talk through - but I'll take a stab or two -

      1) This sounds like my mom's schtick - every conversation would start with a list of complaints. As a kid I used to roll my eyes at it because I would be privy to the switch - five minutes earlier was a whole different mood.

      I came to understand that what she was doing was bringing focus to her - "all eyes on me." It was, I believe her way of making sure [you were] really paying attention. Once she had that, she would move on to the real topic at hand.

      If that's what BPD is doing, it's almost like credits - let 'em roll, give them minimum energy (you'll have to work that out) and then try to focus on what's really the topic.

      I think it's also a way to grease the skids, as it were - get you in the giving mood, so be aware of that.

      But, the complaining is really foreplay usually - at least from my experience.

      2) This is a whole lot trickier because without direct understanding of their triggers I can't be too much help. Learn the triggers and learn to manipulate them into thinking that they figured it out or it's their idea.

      One thing I've done a couple of times was set someone else up to broach to topic. You don't want to do this often - people will accept one "oops!" but rarely more. The mark takes the heat and then you can come in to be the hero. It's tricky -

      Another tactic is to give very subtle but accepting hints about a behavior (not toward you - you can't be perceived as being anything but doe eyed trusting). Get them talking about it in a negative manner (i.e. "yeah, I do that a lot and it does piss people off") which opens the door for you.

      The rule of thumb is to always be accepting and sympathetic - if they really are BPD, that will be the primary trigger (again, from an operational perspective).

      My BPD is pretty well controlled these days - in large part to avoid focusing the rage on my kids - I did that once and it's probably the closest thing I've ever felt to remorse - I think Doc SF and I beat this up pretty good a few weeks ago.

      And when I was younger, I was that guy who would rail loudly about incompetence and how people are fucked up and all that. There does come a time for some of us when we realize that those behaviors are counter productive. I am thankful I realized it -

      Delete
    5. :) Thank you.

      I like that notion of seeing it as 'foreplay.' Instead of focusing on the emotion that's being dumped on me I should focus on waiting for what next in a humorous sort of anticipation. By the way I'm moving from uber-empath towards not taking on others' emotions, as fast as I can, but I still frequently fail and need to make mental adjustments. When I say I'm sad or sorry for someone it's not pity I feel, I literally feel something in me, whereas pity is something felt for someone else that's an approximation of what I believe this person must be feeling, or a projection of what I would feel had I been this person, not a pity in the sense that I have this feeling for the situation this other person is in. SOunds weird, but for me pity is reserved for people who deserve some kind of punishment. Why am I now talking about pity.... Oh, I think you used the word in ME's case. In my mind I never pitied her as I did not believe she deserved any kind of punishment.

      I'm not sure if I'm using pity in the conventional way. Who do you pity? Just anyone in a weak position? I don't mean you personally, Imean people in general. Pity to me is the last thing I wish people felt for me. Kind of degrading, no?

      Delete
    6. I hope it helps -

      I think I was just being sloppy with my use of the word "Pity." It is probably more accurate to say I'm not too worried for her - she will be OK.

      Delete
    7. HL, I've enjoyed your back and forth with Sceli. I think tactics and strategy discussion on how to deal with socio/BPD, schizotypical, psychopath etc. are a welcome treat.

      I do think you are painting Hare all black. He devoted his whole career to studying psychopathy and made important contributions. He has looked at it from one angle, at a certain point in history, but his work will remain in the literature that people read about psycopathy for generations at least.

      Delete
    8. Hi DocSF,

      Both Hare and B-C have made contributions - no question. However, as leaders in their fields I find it at the very least distasteful when they say things like:

      “Zero-Negative” because there is “nothing positive to recommend them” and they are “unequivocally bad for the sufferer and those around them.”

      That is a rather prejudiced statement from a guy who is supposed to be among the most informed on the topic. It's not promoting understanding - it's promoting bigotry.

      Hare is no better with some of thing he says -

      Fallon, by contrast, seeks to inform with facts and theories from all I've seen. To me that is how a person of science should be advancing the discussion.

      It's not all black, but it is a fairly dark shade of grey in my view -

      Delete
    9. HL, I wont comment of B-C, but for Hare you are taking maybe 100 words out of the possibly hundreds of thousands to millions (I don't know the exact number) of words he has written on the topic. I also like fallon, but he also didn't spend decades studying the worst of the worst in the prison system...

      I think it is totally unfair to put Hare into the same category as B-C. What you wrote above is guilt by association.

      Delete
  106. Each day every human being on earth decreases in intelligence by one IQ point. Sociopath World is showing the way. To see the future, read this site every day.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. IQ isn´t something worth measuring...
      You sound a little depressed lately, cheer up!

      Delete
  107. You ARE very boring, mr radical agnostic nihilist some shit.

    You know why? You're extremely self-absorbed. This might have been interesting for your circles when you were younger but at your age the definition of wisdom is to know when to shut up. In your case, I'd say just shut up, period. Forever.

    And, yes, you ARE projecting your steady decrease of your IQ on everyone around you. Even your island had it with you.

    Just SHUT UP. Listen.

    You talked for 70 years, listen for 10, sweeten up--as impossible as that sounds--and make some tasty meal out of yourself for worm-kind one day.

    This is the best I can do for your wife. To try to make you shut the fuck up!

    ReplyDelete
  108. I am glad you are paying attention to me. Keep it up. You might learn something. Doubtful, but there's always a chance.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Craving for 'attention'... Here in SW.

      Exhausted your own circles..

      No wonder you would say your daughter still talks to you. Must be huge for a father like you. She should come here and share the fun.

      We could send an invite through your meet-up, you know. Someone somewhere must know your daughter.

      Delete
    2. Shut Up,

      Radical Agnostic, and all of the other names that he has been using since 2011, does not have a wife or a daughter. Sadly, it's all in his head. All of that is quite apparent.

      His mind/thinking is disorganized and incoherent, which is more indicative of schizophrenia/schizoid personality disorder than sociopathy or autism. That person from yesterday was just trying to be kind to him, thinking that he was schizophrenic and/or unaware. That was all, and there was no relation. Part of the problem with this person is that he doesn't want to help himself or even realize that he needs help, which, as you can see, has been happening since 2011 and/or before that time.

      Unfortunately, as it happens with schizophrenic people, he doesn't have the awareness and mental filter to stop, or "shut up" as you have suggested. If he did, he would do something about it. He does the same thing without any change in his thoughts and behavior, thinking that he will get a different result, but it never happens. This is what schizophrenics do, and it is hard to stop them. People can try to tell him that he's out of line and incoherent, but if it doesn't work, they need to give up and eventually, they do give up, because it makes the most sense. There is so much that can be done for a person like him.

      Delete
    3. "Radical agnostic" name has been used only in 2014. What are the earlier names? Who was kind to him yesterday?

      Delete
    4. Since we are discussing relationships between psychopathy and schizophrenia and related disorders -- here's a relevant quote from Cleckley's The Mask of Sanity:

      "Cleckey Mask of Sanity wrote:
      Such patients with schizophrenia suggest in some respects the psychopath in that their major abnormality, their real pathology, is chiefly within and largely concealed by good reasoning and by ability, at least for intervals, to go through the motions of what looks like a sane pattern of life. Occasionally such a patient will attempt to hang himself, address an insulting letter to the President, announce the discovery of perpetual motion, or wander off from home and let no one know whether he is dead or alive for a couple of months, without being able to give any good reason for such acts and apparently without feeling that an explanation is in order. After following for years obviously queer, distorted, and socially restricted, but apparently not psychotic, careers, a few commit without provocation murder or some other tragic misdeed, for which they show little evidence of remorse or other adequate and understandable reactions.

      Such patients in some respects, particularly in their central emotional deficit, may seem closer to the psychopath than to the ordinary state hospital schizophrenic. There are, however, important differences. The psychopath's outer mask of mechanically correct peripheral functioning is immeasurably more deceptive. The masked schizophrenic outwardly shows no obvious or expected signs of traditional psychosis, but he does not achieve the socially appealing presence, the warm, easy manners, or the false promise of strong and superior character and human qualities that are so bewildering in the psychopath. Real peculiarities, cool and strange alterations of emotion, social isolation, and a profound and indefinable queerness emerge in outer aspects of the cryptic schizophrene. Such signs, except to the expert, do not suggest psychosis or adequately warn us that gross and malignant alterationsexist beneath such a surface. But the evidence of something schizoid, or something queer and not precisely normal, is usually apparent.

      The surface of the psychopath, however, that is, all of him that can be reached by verbal exploration and direct examination, shows up as equal to or better than normal and gives no hint at all of a disorder within. Nothing about him suggests oddness,inadequacy, or moral frailty. His mask is that of robust mental health. Yet he has a disorder that often manifests itself in conduct far more seriously abnormal than that of the schizophrenic. Inwardly, too, there appears to be a significant difference. Deep in the masked schizophrenic we often sense a cold, weird indifference to many of life's most urgent issues and sometimes also bizarre, inexplicable, and unpredictable but intense emotional reactions to what seems almost irrelevant. Behind the exquisitely deceptive mask of the psychopath the emotional alteration we feel appears to be primarily one of degree, a consistent leveling of response to petty ranges and an incapacity to react with sufficient seriousness to achieve much more than pseudoexperience or quasi-experience. Nowhere within do we find a real cause or a sincere commitment, reasonable or unreasonable. There is nowhere the loyalty to produce real and lasting allegiance even to a negative or fanatic cause."

      Delete
    5. I knew two schizophenics in person. One did hang himself. The other gets by with medication, had to quit a very successful career.

      Not once I thought a schizophrenic was similar to a psychopath. Reading this comparison is very interesting in that there apparently is a need to compare the two.

      Delete
    6. It's the schizoid, schizotypal personality disorders that he is also describing I think.

      Delete
    7. Your post at 2:27 is about schizophrenics. I don't see schizoids mentioned in there.

      Delete
    8. I believe the 'masked schizophrenic' was the early indication of these personality disorders. "But the evidence of something schizoid, or something queer and not precisely normal, is usually apparent."

      Delete
    9. Here is a summary from a Peruvian lady capturing what I thought I knew. Schizoid is far too lukewarm to compare anywhere near schizophrenia. To say that schizoid is a masked schizophrenia is confusing the whole picture in my mind (not to mean that's not what he's saying, he's indeed calling schizoid as masked schizophrenia, I just won't buy that phrase, until one shows me hallucinations or disorganized speech I don't see schizophrenia).

      Schizoi D = D istant
      Schizo T ypal = magical T hinking
      Schizophrenic = at least two classic psychotic features (hallucinations, delusions, disorganized speech [loose associations], disorganized/catatonic behavior, negative symptoms [flat affect, social withdrawal, lack of motivation, lack of speech or thought]) for at least six months
      Schizoaffective = schizophrenic + a mood disorder (either depression or bipolar, basically)
      You can think of it as a continuum:
      Schizoid < Schizotypal < Schizophrenic < Schizoaffective
      Distant —> distant + odd thinking —> more odd thinking (i.e., psychosis) —> schizophrenic psychosis + bipolar or depressive mood disorder
      Furthermore, brief psychotic disorders (usually stress-related) last <1 month; schizophreniform disorder is 1-6 months; and then if the symptoms persist longer than 6 months, that’s when a patient can be properly diagnosed with schizophrenia (after ruling out all other possible medical and drug-related causes of psychosis, of course—and there are many).

      Delete
    10. "[t]he so-called schizoid personality disorder is one of the more blatant examples of the APA’s pathologizing of normal human differences"

      Delete
    11. Schizoid personality disorder, schizotypal personality disorder, and schizophrenia exist on a spectrum, which means that all three are included in the quote from Cleckley's The Mask of Sanity. Many of the negative symptoms overlap in all three, with the severity of the psychotic or "positive" symptoms also occurring on the spectrum. Also, studies show that being on the same spectrum, the first two can turn into full-blown schizophrenia.

      Delete
    12. :) Anything can turn into anything. A loner's pssibility of hearing voices one day is not any more than an extrovert's possibility of turning schizophrenic in my mind. I need to see percentages, the Bayesian probabilities to buy the assertion that indeed schizoid is a potential precursor to schizophrenia.

      The World Health Organization's ICD-10 lists schizoid personality disorder as Schizoid personality disorder.[24]

      It is characterized by at least four of the following criteria:
      Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affect.
      Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.
      Consistent preference for solitary activities.
      Very few, if any, close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such.
      Indifference to either praise or criticism.
      Little interest in having sexual experiences with another person (taking age into account).
      Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.
      Indifference to social norms and conventions.
      Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.

      Delete
    13. Sceli, the mask of sanity was written a long, long time ago. He was just starting to put pieces together. I agree with anon at 4:15. Some people find that book interesting and some do not.

      Delete
    14. I read a lot of 'may' this 'may' that on schizophrenia spectrum (see below). What I don't buy is that people are more likely to move in a continuous fashion ithin the schizophreniz spectrum, meaning these disorders are not linear. To me till proven otherwise a schizoid may turn into an npd without ever turning into a schizophrenic.

      The Schizophrenic Spectrum

      Many refer to schizoid personality disorder, schizotypal personality disorder, and schizophrenia as existing on a spectrum, according to WebMD. Schizoid personality disorder is the most mild of these three disorders, though it shares symptoms with the more severe forms. The biggest difference between schizoid personality disorder and the other two disorders is that patients diagnosed with schizoid personality have a firmer grip on reality. That is, though they often blame others for their social inadequacies, they do not experience full-blown hallucinations and intense delusions. Also, they don’t have an odd way of speaking that makes it difficult for them to be understood easily and fit in in social situations.

      You May Be More Likely to Develop Schizoid Personality Disorder If…

      You were abused or mistreated as a child.
      You had a parent who was not emotionally demonstrative.
      You have an immediate family member who is diagnosed with a disorder on the schizophrenic spectrum.
      You were bullied or teased as a child.
      Signs That Schizoid Personality Disorder May Be Your Diagnosis

      Isolating or preferring to be alone is one of the biggest signs of a schizoid personality, but some more specific signs and symptoms of the disorder include:

      Having few, if any, close friends
      Confusion over how to interpret social interactions
      Inability to speak naturally and normally in social situations
      Low sex drive or interest in sexual relationships
      Often being defined by others as boring
      Being emotionally flat
      Being more of a follower than a leader
      A Schizoid Personality Disorder Diagnosis Increases Your Chances of Developing…

      Alcohol dependence
      A drug abuse problem
      Schizotypal personality disorder or schizophrenia
      Generalized anxiety disorder
      Panic disorder
      Social anxiety disorders
      Depression
      Personality disorders

      Delete
    15. There is no medication for treating aspd, npd, bpd, schizoid. There are no voices, no hallucinations. Schizophrenia is in a totally different ball game. There are people who hears voices and/or experience hallucinations without any sign of schizotypal experience and they can overnight become schizophrenic, it's not easy to deal with voices and hallucinations. There are certain damages to the brain that can start these sensory malfunctions and lead to temporary schizophrenia and overnight get back to proper sensory functioning. Schizophrenia's positioning is extremely unique in my mind, spectrum is a verbal and symptom similarity construct, very poor categorization. It's like calling a tomato a vegetable sort of thing. Biologists, neurologists, psychiatrists and psychologists need to work together in understanding these things. I think the whole field is in an extremely infantile stage. And, I never ever cared for linear approximations to nonlinear problems.

      Delete
    16. Oh, boy. I really got emotional about the whole schizoid and schizophrenic bridge thing. It's probably because none of the two schizophrenics I knew were schizoid, the one who did hang was a social butterfly, more an npd/schizophrenia combo who couldn't take life after losing a successful athletic career (imagine Michael Jordan retirement kind of experience, except Jordan eased into life after basketball, remained popular for many many years). Then the other who was definitely on the autistic spectrum, a gifted scientist. So, I definitely buy autistic spectrum/schizophrenia combo articles. Then I know so many schizoids, these again are more like npd's in my mind than schizophrenia potentials. To me majority of people who spend their time on line are schizoids. Kids today are becoming more and more schizoid, no? I don't see them running around on the streets playing with their friends, the way baby-boomers grew up. Everyone is online somehwre, even the baby-boomers, lol...

      Anyhow, I chill.

      Delete
    17. A little "out of the box..." and I'm really not trying the be a narc here -

      Could it be that schizoid and BPD exist on an axis that might be called, "emotionality." On one end, you have schizoids that just don't have a lot of affect. On the other end, you have BPD's that have so much that can't regulate it.

      Make emotionality orthogonal to affective empathy and cognitive empathy...to broaden the picture...

      Delete
    18. :)

      I have no problem with that, as long as you don't order these things in a fashion that one may lead to the other.

      SChizoid is also known as avoidant attachment disorder, meaning like BPD these people also suffer from fear of abandonment, or they really want some deep connection, but they don't find the conditions suitable for that, and they settle for solitude as opposed to less-than-acceptable social interactions for reasons either they are not socially acceptable enough or they don't find others socially acceptable for their needs. I'm just saying, not justifying their views, although I can sort of appreciate this sort of thinking. I think schizod and BPD are very similar, there are bpd's who completely withdraw from emotions, I forgot what they're called. (That sounded hilarious, lol)

      Delete
    19. Sceli: "There is no medication for treating aspd, npd, bpd, schizoid. There are no voices, no hallucinations. Schizophrenia is in a totally different ball game."

      "If, as clinical observation suggests, the positive and negative
      symptoms of schizophrenia can present in endlessly
      varying combinations, and if there are some patients who
      show pictures of positive symptoms with negative symptoms
      remaining inapparent or very far in the background,
      then there seems no reason why there should not also be
      patients whose illnesses are characterized exclusively or
      almost exclusively by negative symptoms. The nine
      patients described in this study had just such a presentation,
      undergoing a change from a previously normal or at
      least stable personality, deteriorating in social and occupational
      functioning, ultimately developing a typical schizophrenic
      negative symptom defect state, but never exhibiting
      florid psychotic symptoms.
      These nine patients had a presentation dominated by
      the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, but their clinical
      picture was not wholly restricted to these symptoms."

      Downloaded from http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/ by guest on December 18, 2014

      http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/2/479.full.pdf

      "What the presence of such symptoms does emphasize is the
      continuity of simple schizophrenia with the other subtypes
      of the disorder, which are themselves on a continuum with
      each other and not always stable over time (Carpenter and
      Stephens 1979). In fact, the present study originally
      reported on a series of ten cases, but one patient had to be
      withdrawn at a late stage when, after 25 years, he developed
      clear-cut delusions of reference and auditory hallucinations
      that persisted for several months." http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/2/479.full.pdf

      Sceli: "I think the whole field is in an extremely infantile stage."

      http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/

      "and the phenomenon of talking to oneself has also been described in autism..."

      "Patients with autism sometimes undergo a catastrophic
      decline in function in adolescence or early adult
      life (Gillberg and Coleman 1992)."

      "...diagnosis of infantile autism followed by the development of schizophrenia." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6696593

      Delete
    20. LOL!!! I don't know what other people call them, I call him "Harry." I shut down emotionally on the drop of a hat - Ma Haller hates this about me and it's even more annoying to her that any effort on her part to change it only makes it worse.

      I really am in all likelihood talking out my ass on this "emotionality axis" - I really haven't known too many schizo-spectrum types, so I don't have a grip on it. I was mostly responding to what I was reading -

      I'm still not clear on the progression you mean? Are you saying that once you make a diagnosis at one end of the spectrum (or whatever) the person will begin moving towards greater pathology?

      Delete
    21. Epidemiologically there is a strong correlation between schizophrenia and AsPD. People with AsPD have much higher incidence of schizophrenia and vice versa. See for instance http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/4/791.full.pdf
      and references therein.

      " The Epidemiological Catchment Area (ECA) Study revealed that the prevalence of schizophrenia was 6.9 times higher among men
      with APD and 11.8 times higher among women with APD
      than among men and women generally (Robins et al.
      1991; Robins 1993)."

      This is not an accident!

      Thanks to anon for looking into and posting real research results.

      Delete
    22. DoctorSciFi: Schizophrenia also overlaps (30%) with bipolar disorder, so what's your point? Everything is interconnected in the brain, so there's bound to be some similarities, we need to know why they're different as much as why they're similar

      Delete
    23. Progression-wise, shared genetic and environmental risk factors have been identified for autistic spectrum disorders (ASD) and schizophrenia.

      "Thus, in terms of brain volumetrics, ASD and schizophrenia have a clear degree of overlap that may reflect shared etiological mechanisms.

      Autistic spectrum disorders (ASD; comprising autism, high-functioning autism, and Asperger's syndrome) and schizophrenia have a substantial number of features in common. People with autism, have a strong family history of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder [1], [2], [3] and may have alterations in the same set of genes [4], [5]. Other aetiological factors such as maternal infection [6], [7], copy number variants in genetic structure [8] and maternal vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy [9], [10] have all been associated with increased risk of both disorders. Consistent with shared aetiological factors, ASD and schizophrenia share phenotypic characteristics."

      Greater grey matter volumes in ASD and Schizophrenia.

      http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012233

      The issue of genetics, with both ASD and schizophrenia having a strong genetic basis:

      http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/41/1/15.full

      Delete
    24. Morbid Polar, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia both have psychosis associated with them (as general possibilities). If it is no surprise to you that the comorbidity between schizophrenia and AsPD (for which psychosis is not one of the diagnostic criteria) is so high, that's fine with me. I found the high comorbidity result surprising. That was my point.

      One can say everything comes from the brain, but that doesn't explain why these two, which most people don't associate together, would be linked to the extent that they are.

      We already know how different they are. that was also my point.

      Delete
    25. I agree with you, DoctorSciFi, and thanks for including the study with references.

      "...there is compelling evidence of an association
      between schizophrenia and APD and of the harmful
      consequences for individuals afflicted with both disorders."

      http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/4/791.full.pdf

      Delete
    26. Hi Anon, you are an interesting poster and thanks for the additional reference. I had never thought or read about the association between schizophrenia and AsPD till a few days ago. I don't think it has been discussed much if at all here on sociopathworld either. At least schizophrenia is not listed as one of the many labels on the right hand side to find posts on particular topics...

      If you want to pick a pseudonym, just scroll down the options under 'reply as' till you get to name/url and just type in a pseudonym and skip the url...

      Can you say a bit about yourself?

      Delete
    27. DoctorSciFi, this is Anon, and I'm now called D. Webb. I have been a Research Psychologist for ten years. It's a field that has always interested me. I am drawn to finding and analyzing the experiences and behaviors of individuals.

      You are an interesting poster, too, and I also thank you for your findings. They have provided me with additional, more specific insight into a broader subject that I've been researching for some time. Schizophrenia and AsPD are correlated, and it would be great to find out more about them. Discussing it here would hopefully provide further insight.

      Delete
    28. Hi D. Webb, nice to meet you! What is the broader subject that you're researching, if you care to say?

      On a slightly different subject, I ran across an interesting blogger... one post -- sort of shows the difference between what happens in the real world and what happens in research and touches on the subject of Hare's contributions to civilization:)

      "Psychopathy: A Rorschach test for psychologists?
      Compassion
      Empathy
      Impulsivity
      Excitement-seeking

      What do these personality traits have in common?

      If you are high on any or all of them, you may be less likely to rate other people as psychopathic on the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R).

      The PCL-R is the most widely used measure of psychopathy in the world. But in real-world forensic settings, scores vary widely depending upon which side retained the evaluator. This finding is called the "partisan allegiance" effect.

      In a new twist, these same researchers that brought you partisan allegiance have found that an evaluator's personality may impact her judgments of psychopathy. Evaluators low on compassion and thrill-seeking as measured by a widely used personality test, the NEO Personality Inventory-Revised, are more likely than others to rate criminals as psychopathic.

      That’s ironic, because according to the theory of psychopathy, it's supposed to be the psychopath -- not the psychologist -- who has a deficit in empathy. ...

      http://forensicpsychologist.blogspot.ca/2011/03/psychopathy-rorschach-test-for.html

      Delete
    29. DoctorSciFi, the broader subject that I've been researching has to do with Autism Spectrum Disorder and its correlation to schizophrenia, focusing on the difference between its manifestation in the male versus the female brain. In other words, why is this correlation present in males, but not so much in females? It turns out that females with autism spectrum disorder don't develop schizophrenia, or it's not as prevalent in them. I have yet to find a great deal of information on this subject, but nonetheless, my focus has been more on the male side of the equation.

      Thanks for sending me the link to the post -- and your thoughts -- this discussion becoming more interesting as we delve deeper into it. As I read through it, this particular paragraph has caught my attention:

      "The researchers emphasize that their findings are preliminary and need to be replicated and extended. But if they hold up, they have intriguing implications not only for the psychopathy measure but also for other psychological tests with elements of subjectivity in scoring or interpretation."

      I am presently reading the embedded links. So far, a couple of them sound quite interesting.

      Delete
  109. Thank you, "Shut Up." You must be at least seven years old. You can type. You can make a more sophisticated phony name than "Anonymous." The challenge for you, now, is to be more amusing and entertaining than I am. In this context, I think that is known as a "race to the bottom." I don't set the bar very . . . low, but I am sure you can do the . . . limbo . . . better/worse than I can.

    I presume you are a real person, unless my other persona (I suffer from DID) has set up another account and logged in to insult me. Apparently, there's a battle going on for control of my psyche. Will I win? Or. Will I win? The other I.?

    Are you an "Innie?" Or are you an "outie?" Can you get it up? Or can you get it wet?

    ReplyDelete
  110. RA is that you or is that me?

    Hilarious!

    ReplyDelete
  111. Modern physics (which I understand not a whit (and I suspect neither do physicists)) argues that eventually the universe will end in the "heat death of the universe" aka "entropy."

    I suspect that humanity in general and sociopath world in particular will end not with a bang, not with a whimper (sorry, Mr. Eliot) but with a sigh of excruciating boredom.

    HH & Sceli, I thank you for your laughter, but both of you must be having really boring and really slow days.

    SHUT UP: stop nibbling on your toe nails and entertain us.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Here is a good example of lack of empathy in progress in the USA. I'll summarize what has happened for the international readers.

    Someone who broke the law (selling cigarettes) got stopped by a cop who started handling him rough. He told the cop to not choke-hold, "I can't breather' he said. Cop didn't ease up on him and he indeed died at the spot from a heart attack induced by the hold.

    Now a group is making money selling an item becoming very popular, a shirt that says 'breathe easy, don't break the law.'

    To someone who is not born and raised in the USA (or England, possibly) there is more of a chance seeing lack of empathy in this statement of printing and buying this shirt than not. Very black and white thinking, no pun intended (given the color of the parties involved).

    White cop, black man in the choke-hold, and white customers buying the shirt.

    One of the cops says the shirt is meant to bring the people together (oh, boy...).
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/17/us/breathe-tshirt-controversy/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That shirt isn't even lack of empathy - it's either outright cluelessness or propaganda - I'm leaning towards the latter...

      Delete
    2. Propaganda? What do you mean? Do you mean provocation?

      Delete
    3. Shirts advocating compliance to police...under the threat of violence...really?!?! Don't break the law and we won't kill you (for selling cigarettes).

      I know I'm not quite wired right, but it seems to me that the system is supposed to be: police arrest suspects and collect evidence and the judicial branch sorts it out - was there an integration I missed? Some sort of efficiency push?

      The cop that is saying that it's meant to "bring people together" sounds like complete and utter bullshit. What I hear is a cop saying, "yep - that's the way things should be - do that and we'll all be happier." That is propaganda to my ears - a big fat load of bullshit...right out of Mein Kampf - designed to make the population compliant.

      Don't even get me started...the older I get the less I like and trust the police...and I'm a white guy...

      @Dr. G: How am I doing? 8D~

      Delete
    4. Ok, you mean police propaganda, or control of state propaganda. I somehow could not name it. I agree with you.

      To me it was fuel over the fire, further provacation of riots, and again further control of the police after that.

      Delete
    5. EXACTLY!!! It sets up a self fulfilling prophecy.

      Cops: "We're doing our best to bring people together - see tee shirts!"

      Angry Mob: "You gotta be kidding?!?!?!"

      Cops: "What are you getting upset about? See - these people are unreasonable and need to be controlled, give us more power so we can keep you safe from these crazies..."

      Delete
    6. "@Dr. G: How am I doing? 8D~" I do betta

      Delete
    7. LOL! I'm sure you would.

      Delete
    8. here's sum fun bpd stories if you get bored :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1_GyqFBR7I

      Delete
  113. I don't know if it has anything to do with the empathy, but when I drive (even though I have a tendency carelessly let the speedometer inch up), I try to follow the following rule (to avoid provoking cops to chase me), DON'T EXCEED THE SPEED OF LIGHT. It's not only a good idea, it's the law.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unless you have an Alcubierre Drive.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

      8D~

      Delete
  114. I just saw that some kind (and anonymous person) wrote, in part (about me):

    "His mind/thinking is disorganized and incoherent, which is more indicative of schizophrenia/schizoid personality disorder than sociopathy or autism. That person from yesterday was just trying to be kind to him, thinking that he was schizophrenic and/or unaware. That was all, and there was no relation. Part of the problem with this person is that he doesn't want to help himself or even realize that he needs help, which, as you can see, has been happening since 2011 and/or before that time."

    This perceptive person is quite correct. If he had access to my mental health record (and I apologize for the use of arcane technical terms) "THIS PERSON IS CRAZIER THAN A BEDBUG OR A HOOT OWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE LET HIM, HER, OR IT HAVE ACCESS TO THE WORLD WIDE WEB!!! HIS CRAZED MEMES ARE HIGHLY INFECTIOUS. AN ENTIRE WEB SITE HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY IT AND ITS CRAZED FOLLOWERS. AS SOON AS THE FBI FINISHES RESPONDING TO THE NORTH KOREAN CYBER ATTACK ON SONY PICTURES, THE WEB SITE SOCIOPATHWORLD WILL BE REMOVED, DISINFECTED, STERILIZED WITH RADIATION, AND CLEANSED OF CRAZY PEOPLE BEFORE BEING ALLOWED BACK ON LINE AGAIN. !!!!!!!"

    Please use caution. I am very insane. Unlike you.

    ReplyDelete
  115. "Emerging study results suggest that there are both clinical and biological links between autism and schizophrenia." http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/autism/autism-and-schizophrenia

    "...diagnosis of infantile autism followed by the development of schizophrenia." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6696593

    "Schizophrenia genetic networks identified; Connection to autism found -" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121111153933.htm?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=schizophrenia-genetic-networks-identified-connection-to-autism-found

    http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2011/x-linked-variants-may-up-autism-schizophrenia-risk

    ReplyDelete
  116. Oh great, Ukan is exactly what I'm gonna be workin with all day. Jus got a call from the supermax. Gonna hafta listen to that junk all day. It's all very real to them though, the little societies they have created in prison, and I'm sure it will be interesting studying it. Hopefully I'll be able to do some good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good on ya!

      The killer women doc was fun - the Austrian Angles of Death Club was particularly interesting. The actress playing the gal with the knives did not know the first thing about using them -

      I was trying to find the actual movie, but all I could find was the trailer - Suburban Mayhem.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abOIcOitnxg

      I recall thinking, "I honestly don't know if I want to shoot this chick or fuck her." I thought the character was pulled off fairly well given that response...

      Delete
    2. Hi Dr. G,

      I just found this in the Huffingluepost - what's with the Ausies and cooking their victims? I know the place started as a prison colony...

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/06/chef-cooks-girlfriend-marcus-volke_n_5940150.html?cps=gravity_2446_-9178407404107832854

      Delete
  117. M.E.: Would you like to collaborate with me in research to advance our understanding of sociopathy? (i.e. Empathy challenged disorders, ASPD, etc). I would like to do it from a fresh perspective and not the traditional "socios are bad apples." If so, let me know, I'll be around.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Morbid, I'm sure she could be helpful in some ways, but I doubt she has any training in research methodology.

      Delete
    2. This would not be a traditional research collaboration, I would like to collaborate with M.E. to learn from her about ways to work with this population. I've read enough from them to know that they have questions about what constitutes a diagnosis among other debatable arguments and decided that we really need to collaborate with them to be able to answer THEIR questions and needs, not the researchers' ideals. This is how research really helps people, leave the research methodology to moi. M.E. If you read me say hi! ;)

      Delete
    3. I wish you the best in whatever your goals are, and what you are trying to achieve which doesn't actually sound like publishable research. You have yet to explain how you will address the innumerable problems that would come with trying to legitimately study this population.

      Delete
    4. The challenge is what attracts me to do this, why would I want to prove that smoking causes cancer or that you can prevent HIV by using condoms? Obesity research? Done that. You are what you eat. End of story. This is unexplored territory or shall I say, "clumsily explored thus far." I don't expect perfect research, just good enough to make some progress.

      Delete
    5. If you want to reach ME there is the contact tab at the top to send her an email.

      Delete
    6. Yes, I know, but I thought this way would be more classy :)

      Delete
  118. We're animals. Animals have two main drives: survive and pass on genes.

    We are the only animals who developed the ability to observe ourselves. We are the only animals that developed the idea of “right” and “wrong.” The universe has “laws” such as gravity. If you walk off a cliff, you die. Most animals avoid walking off cliffs.

    Ethics and morality have no objective meaning like gravity. “Evil” has no objective meaning.

    Empathy played a useful role in our evolution as social animals. As relatively “weak” animals (compared to grizzly bears and great white sharks) we survive better when we work together. As cunning and dangerous animals we harm each other about as much as we help each other.

    I have some empathy (though I am relatively low), but I avoid harming other humans in part because I have some empathy, because I have been reasonably well socialized by my society [United States of America] (which is one of the better behaved one in our modern world), and because I am smart enough to know that if I don't follow the social rules moderately well, I will probably screw myself.

    After getting around to reading the post and the two book reviews referenced, I am somewhat amused by the constant discussion of “evil” as if it is some “law” or concrete, objective value or force like a viral disease or a harmful act of nature like a hurricane or tornado.

    Evil is just something our species has decided not to like for practical reasons. Empathy, generally, pushes us to avoid evil, but lots of unempathic people (psychopaths and sociopaths) and lots of other people who don't “function” by what we arbitrarily define as “normal” (e.g. autistic, Aspergers, other varieties of mentally ill) are able to conform well enough to society's rules to avoid harming others.

    I have a brother who is as cuckoo as can be. Psychotically depressed, schizophrenic, and bipolar; he's never harmed anybody or done anything else (as far as I know) that might be described as “evil” or even “anti-social.”

    Much of this discussion is fairly stupid. Many humans often behave badly (we're “bad to the bone”) and we've never reliably figured out a way to get ourselves to consistently and uniformly behave well.

    Just who we are.

    ReplyDelete

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