Monday, December 8, 2014

Human connection

This was an interesting recent comment on an old post, "Am I My Asperger Brother's Keeper?":

Is the resentment/jealousy of auspies that they are what sociopaths are, but that auspies don't need people? Most of the negative view against socios is that they "prey" on empaths. It seems to me that sociopaths lack empathy but still want/need a human connection... but as they can't have a "real" empath-style love, they only have power and control for a connection. It makes me feel sad for sociopaths... which maybe makes me an uberempath? Being an auspie actually sounds pretty awesome and very well suited for a post singularity humanity. 

What do you think? A main distinction is that sociopaths need humans and aspies or autistics don't? I have sometimes opined that sociopaths are on the autism spectrum, and that their fixation is on humans and human behavior rather than, say, trains, as is true of my friend's brother (not to stereotype).

54 comments:

  1. The realist tradition is about trained emotions, therapeutic society (Rieff) trains ppl in psychopathy. So for high IQ sociopaths it is a question of meaning, meaning, meaning; no surprise that once you have that then the intellect can go to work on integrating the emotions. So alot of these posts are moot if we simply do some honest work within our Christian tradition. See David Wood, a criminal sociopath who has gone full circle and can save readers much time and vexing entanglements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DakEcY7Z5GU

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  2. Well criminal sociopaths have hostility towards empath "suckers"
    because the genuinely believe they are superior to them.
    It's narcassism again. They have an "entitled" view of themselves, and
    believe the world should dance to their tune.
    For example, one of the two Chesire Conn. home invaders blamed the doctor
    they tied up in the basement, for not protecting his family. They raped, robbed
    and burned his family alive.
    It's always SOMEONE else's fault. "My half was at the bottom." It's the "carnal"
    (greedy) mind.
    Now society at large seems to have gone over to this viewpoint. The gen Xer's
    involved in the "civil rights" demonstrations that often turn violent are either
    deluded, greedy, (They expect some kind of reward) or both.
    An unseen revolution is in effect to destroy the American way of life. The old
    guard is either too lazy, weak, or scared to stop it, like Weimer Germany.
    What will be the results of this "hope and change?" Al Sharpton will be the new
    Attorney General. Don't worry about white guys (Even the white male helper's of
    the revolution) they can be "disgarded." As for white women, don't jangle the
    chains too loudly on the bedpost that you are chained to while your master is
    sleeping in his bed with your girlfriend, you'll simply get another beating.

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    1. Anonymous @ 3:52 AM

      "An unseen revolution is in effect to destroy the American way of life."

      I believe that you are really over-thinking things here, and you have made several generalizations throughout the rest of your comment.

      You are generalizing at this point as well, "As for white women, don't jangle the chains too loudly on the bedpost that you are chained to while your master is sleeping in his bed with your girlfriend, you'll simply get another beating." You need to keep in mind that not all white women, or men, for that manner, if the genders were to be reversed, would engage or stay in a relationship involving three individuals. As to what couples, in general, choose to do in the bedroom, since you're describing D/s elements here, that is their choice, but, once again, not all white women, or white men, would become involved in the three-persons situation you have described. Overall, this whole thing sounds ridiculous and it makes no sense whatsoever.

      Delete
  3. The benefit of being isolated from others and not distracted is that new worlds unfold that others don’t see. On the other hand, there is something corpse-like and cowardly about such isolation. That dead guy with the moustache talks about the importance of living in this world, while at the same time creating it as we go. Ubermensch. The plight of the sociopath is that people often seem to offer less value than trains.

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    1. "people often seem to offer less value than trains"
      Yep. Nailed it.

      The rest of what you're saying, on the other hand, is confusing at best.

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    2. Just remember. It is people who made trains. Just be amazed at what they can do when they coalesce. It is a plight to coalesce, but sometimes well worth it.

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  4. I think the difference is about motivations, which with aspies and those on the autistic spectrum can be difficult to nail down.

    I remember reading somewhere about a theory in psychology that sociopaths have "a poorly defined sense of self." The theory goes on to justify a sociopath's compulsion to effect reactions as a form of sonar by which they can measure and quantify themselves.

    I am not a psychologist, but I find the theory intriguing and it adds a dimension to this subject.

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    1. Interesting, cc. A sonar. Different from a mirror. In a mirror, you see your reflection right away. With a sonar there is a delay, and you know there is something big enough to be registered. Just today, my sociofriend told me people cannot stroke his ego. He needs to determine his self worth by himself. But I believe his self worth depends on what people do for him (sonar), not what they say to him or about him (mirror). Does that make sense?

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  5. I was reading recently that one researcher, Ali G's cousin I think, put forward an idea that the three (sociopathy, Aspergers, and Autism).

    The notion is you think of the two types of empathy (cognitive and affective) as two axis, then in the (+,+) quadrant you have the noms (both systems working well). With Aspies, it would be (+,-), where the affective empathy system is in tact , but cognitive empathy is faulty (trouble with social context), With Socios, it's (-,+), where the cognitive empathy is in tact, but the affective empathy is "not hitting on all cylinders," as it were (no internal context for emotions). Finally, with the autistics, it's (-,-) - neither system works well so everything is lacking context (with the autistics I've known, this doesn't seem implausible)..

    The model isn't perfect and there are numerous critiques out there - especially where the autistics are concerned. My guess is that this is, in part to the fact that Autism and Asperger's have been studied with greater zeal than "sociopathy."

    After all, in one case they are trying to "help those poor, unfortunate, lost souls," on the other hand, "what is to be done about the human trash?"

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    1. I love how he's just known as Ali G's cousin :P

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    2. HLHaller -

      "After all, in one case they are trying to "help those poor, unfortunate, lost souls," on the other hand, "what is to be done about the human trash?"

      Well, this statement sounds poisonous.

      Delete
    3. u r poisonous.

      Delete
    4. I think hlhaller is on point.

      Delete
    5. Anon @ 4:29,

      Why are you calling me poisonous?

      Delete
    6. HLHaller,

      Can you add some details to what you wrote?

      Delete
    7. Hi Smartie,

      The post above dovetails with the one I just posted at the bottom.

      Delete
    8. bettemachete,

      I understood it differently in terms of its meaning.

      Delete
    9. because ya r. why do ya care?

      Delete
  6. That first paragraph should read, "...that the three...are related."

    Ugh! It's Monday...

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  7. Does insisting that personality disorders and Asperger's (spectrum disorders) are related:

    a) qualify as a repetitive behavior and fixation
    b) indicate that one is trying to justify assholeish behavior
    d) indicate that one is so narcissistic she thinks her opinions are above clinical research
    d) make researchers want to work even harder to find a pharmacological intervention for stupidity

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  8. What is point d) again?

    LOL!

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  9. i have a question.
    do we love? i think i love some one, but it's not normal. i don't need to be around him, i don't wanna ever be WITH him, we have a quite weird world between us, and it's no "us" and it's not like other's. but he does make my rushy racy competent world stop.

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    1. Anonymous, December 8, 2014 at 8:08 AM

      "i don't need to be around him, i don't wanna ever be WITH him,..."

      I just wrote about this point to Grendel. It clearly sounds like marked detachment, which is difficult on levels that significantly take a great deal away from the connection and intensity of an enthralling, one-of-a-kind and magnetic relationship. Can you add to these thoughts in here?

      Delete
    2. do we love? i think i love some one,

      lies, only lies. and bad attempts at manipulation too

      Delete
  10. ME wrote: "I have sometimes opined that sociopaths are on the autism spectrum, and that their fixation is on humans and human behavior rather than, say, trains, as is true of my friend's brother (not to stereotype)."

    Being a non, I wouldn't be able to judge if the word 'fixation' is the best choice here.
    But in any case I think it is an oversimplification. The definition of sociopathy connects to antisocial behavior -- an indifference in this fixation to the respect of human rights of the other...

    Socios are much more likely to end up incarcerated (or commit social 'crimes') that nons or for that matter Autistics. There is a rational reason that people feel threatened by socios in a way they do not by Autistics. Not acknowledging this is to deny reality, in my view....

    Having compassion for those who are inherently dangerous is not impossible -- how to have compassion for those who have none?

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    1. Hi Doc, Good points. I think it's possible to have compassion for those have none. Though, if that person hurt my family, I doubt I could wield anything but a club.

      Grendel

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    2. It's interesting, I am blown away by super compassionate, forgiving people - Malala Yousafzai comes to mind. I know I am nothing like that person - and I don't mean that there's anything wrong with either of us, but...are we even the same species?

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    3. Socio's are not fixated on humans and their behavior. They are fixated on themselves and what they can get from others. They only focus on an individuals behavior if they want something and have to figure out their behavior to get it.

      Delete
  11. Most if not all people 'feed' off others and use them for mirrors. Babies and their mothers mirror back and forth from the very moment the baby enters the world. Perhaps a study that followed newborns to adulthood would show that some babies, those who mirror less as infants?, are more likely to grow up into socios, aspies, etc. Just my two cents on half a cup of morning coffee after a long night at the madhouse.

    CC: "The theory goes on to justify a sociopath's compulsion to effect reactions as a form of sonar by which they can measure and quantify themselves."

    Interesting and makes sense to me. All the socios I know at work and in life emit a hungry hypnotic need to connect, to be touched on some level, physical, spiritual, intellectual, etc. In fact, one reason I've been able to connect with some of the more controlled, intelligent ones is because, or so they tell me, that I feed them stuff and therefore I'm useful. In turn, my best socio friends feed me their steely logic and coldness, and this I've found to be extremely useful. A couple have even said that my 'sensitivity' to the suffering of the world (and to their hollow predicament) is both funny and delicious. Even addictive. (That I sleep with a knife under my pillow and have fantasized for years about blowing up the federal reserve also seems to them rather sweet, if a bit flaky.) So I think that some socios do jab at others not just for the thrill, but to provoke emotions, which they can then observe and absorb.

    I know some pretty strange people from a wide variety of the spectrum and the one thing they all seem to share is a desire to touch others, and in return be touched. Some like to rip and tear, but most seem to want to be petted. Like a cat, they want their ears scratched, for you to gaze into their eyes with undying adoration.

    Grendel

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    1. "Interesting and makes sense to me. All the socios I know at work and in life emit a hungry hypnotic need to connect, to be touched on some level, physical, spiritual, intellectual, etc."

      Grendel,

      This is a good observation, and I can really relate to these thoughts, keeping in mind the parallel that I discussed a couple of days ago, emphasizing those essential points that I found to be rather identical. On the whole, it has to do with personal levels of intensity, and as you wrote, emitting a high, deeply characteristic "need to connect, to be touched on some level, physical, spiritual, intellectual, etc." Still keeping the parallel in mind as I wrote it, because it is truly something that I recently discovered in my own way, the levels of intensity vary from one individual to the next, but the more one feeds into that need to know, absorb, feel and explore through that connection, the more intense it becomes, becoming personalized and feeling as though it has become part of one's way of being. What's more, some experiences can seem and feel rather unique, with the uniqueness being the most important and fascinating thing.

      Delete
    2. SS, "the more one feeds into that need to know, absorb, feel and explore through that connection, the more intense it becomes, becoming personalized and feeling as though it has become part of one's way of being."

      Yes! Sometimes, even animals of different species appear to explore each other gifts through some kind of kindred connection. Dolphins and whales in the wild sometimes 'play' with humans (one whale almost accidentally drowned a woman by dragging her down, then it rushed her to the surface when it realized she was drowning). My family used to have crows, Heckle and Jeckle, who could talk, drink beer and dance to polkas. Together they would ride on the back of our German Shepard and when they saw garter snakes or mice in the yard, they would kill them and give them to our three cats. All of these and other homey critters (an owl, a hawk, a chipmunk and Thumper) lived and played together. A playful curiosity ruled their all of their interactions. It was fun to watch!

      Alas, uniqueness in the sense of being new doesn't always last. When we become familiar with something over time, whether it's a concept or a person, the shine begins to dim. When the sun never sets we can easily become blind to the light of day. What can last is a different kind of intense connection. I'm not sure I can describe it. It's rather like an inside joke between two people that always makes you chuckle -- there's a specious thread that forever binds beings who know, absorb, feel and explore each other, especially in play.

      Grendel.

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    3. "Alas, uniqueness in the sense of being new doesn't always last. When we become familiar with something over time, whether it's a concept or a person, the shine begins to dim. When the sun never sets we can easily become blind to the light of day. What can last is a different kind of intense connection. I'm not sure I can describe it. It's rather like an inside joke between two people that always makes you chuckle -- there's a specious thread that forever binds beings who know, absorb, feel and explore each other, especially in play."

      Grendel,

      "...uniqueness in the sense of being new doesn't always last."

      Due to my personality, "uniqueness in the sense of being new" needs to last. It really does, and it is something that I view as essential. Also due to my personality, I find that when connecting to a person, it is always I who upholds such a thing, because it is who I am and that is what I need. This is as clear as I can describe it without taking something away from it (i.e., meaning over-explaining ad infinitum). However, going back to the point of marked detachment, and thinking of it in terms of a relationship, it is an innate desire for me to have that reciprocated in person, in its high intensity sans the marked detachment, in its constant uniqueness of things feeling entirely new. It is when one truly connects, when the detachment is no longer there, that things intensify to a high degree and I feel even more inclined to add to the distinctiveness that is/exists at the root of who I am as a person.

      I understand your point as well, meaning what you wrote after the first sentence in that particular paragraph, but what you also need to keep in mind is that all of the parts need to be there as well as I have explained them, to create a one-of-a-kind "meeting of the minds and inner calling, so to speak" - a most natural connection in all of its energy, eccentricity, élan, constant novelty and/or what I like to call dernier cri.

      Delete
    4. SS, Your comment deserves more than I can respond right now. You have a very interesting way of putting things. When there is no detachment, I take that to mean a type of merging . . . . Allow me to return when the family leaves. They are screaming for my attention.

      Grendel

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  12. "Fantasized for years about blowing up the federal reserve"ha..ahhh Grendel you're so much fun :) :)

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    1. Thanks, Dr. Ginger. I get a kick outta you, too. :)))

      Grendel

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  13. We are in a very strange era of human history. We were not “created” or “intelligently designed “ as the religionists imagine. We all know that now; even those who still pretend to believe in the mythical entity “God.” We evolved (like other animals), but the only bright creatures who slid by the “Knowledge of mortality scares me to death so I will kill myself” barrier that stopped the apes and whales and elephants and raccoons and coyotes from becoming self aware.

    With brain scans and data processing and astrophysics and genetic engineering and what not, we are like an artificial intelligent that somehow became self aware and began to study itself. Now we are edging up at the point where we are starting to go beyond analyzing what we are and starting to ask what do we want to make oneself. We are becoming the self creating Pygmalion. Creature.

    First, as individuals, then as groups, and finally, as a species, we start out with a personality, a product of nature and nurture. Compared to “normal” and “standard” personalities, which many humans half delude themselves is bad around empathy, this web site attracts: aberrations, eccentrics, exceptions, oddballs, anomalies, deviants, quirkies, iconoclasts, mavericks, nonconformists, outsiders,

    We are still in the “Naming of Parts” stage. I am referring to a famous pacifist poem by the British writer Henry Reed.

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  14. I. NAMING OF PARTS

    To-day we have naming of parts. Yesterday,
    We had daily cleaning. And to-morrow morning,
    We shall have what to do after firing. But to-day,
    To-day we have naming of parts. Japonica
    Glistens like coral in all of the neighboring gardens,
              And to-day we have naming of parts.

    This is the lower sling swivel. And this
    Is the upper sling swivel, whose use you will see,
    When you are given your slings. And this is the piling swivel,
    Which in your case you have not got. The branches
    Hold in the gardens their silent, eloquent gestures,
              Which in our case we have not got.

    This is the safety-catch, which is always released
    With an easy flick of the thumb. And please do not let me
    See anyone using his finger. You can do it quite easy
    If you have any strength in your thumb. The blossoms
    Are fragile and motionless, never letting anyone see
              Any of them using their finger.

    And this you can see is the bolt. The purpose of this
    Is to open the breech, as you see. We can slide it
    Rapidly backwards and forwards: we call this
    Easing the spring. And rapidly backwards and forwards
    The early bees are assaulting and fumbling the flowers:
              They call it easing the Spring.

    They call it easing the Spring: it is perfectly easy
    If you have any strength in your thumb: like the bolt,
    And the breech, and the cocking-piece, and the point of balance,
    Which in our case we have not got; and the almond-blossom
    Silent in all of the gardens and the bees going backwards and forwards,
              For to-day we have naming of parts.

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  15. In a conventional literary analysis I see the poem as a contrast between the cruel mechanical technology of war, the knowledge we need to kill efficiently and effectively and the sweet beauty of peace and nature. (Ignoring, of course, the cruel parts of nature.) In a metaphorical twist applying the poem to today's SW discussion, the “naming of parts” is the naming of mental “flaws: in our nature, whether it is sociopath/psychopath, Autistic, Aspergers, narcissist, etc.

    Then we find ourselves in the situation of choosing. Do we choose to be the “best sociopath we can be?” For example, Hitler and Stalin chose to be the “best mass murderer” I can be” (with lots of competition from others such as Pol Pot, etc. Individual serial killers such as Ted Bundy chose to be the “best individual serial killer I can be.”

    Or do we choose to redeem ourselves by creating a better self? For example, Nelson Mandela at one point was a “terrorist” who killed people (with a cause that had some justification) and now is regarded as one of the most noble leaders of the 20th Century. Bill Gates was mostly motivated by lust for power and money and now is redeeming himself by striving to relieve suffering and poverty in the world.

    My point is that some of the sociopaths (and other “deviants”) on this web site seem to be saying, I am what I am; deal with it. Others, and perhaps M.E., herself, are trying to turn themselves into more worthwhile people by the general society's standards.

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    1. Which is laughable when you think about it.

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    2. "We can cap the old times, making playing only logical harm"

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  16. 'Now we are edging up at the point where we are starting to go beyond analyzing what we are and starting to ask what do we want to make oneself.'

    Indeed, awesome posts RA.

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  17. "What do you think? A main distinction is that sociopaths need humans and aspies or autistics don't? I have sometimes opined that sociopaths are on the autism spectrum, and that their fixation is on humans and human behavior..."

    M.E.,

    It is true that sociopaths need humans, since there is so much to explore, deriving stimulation on levels that can prove to be highly fascinating (i.e., this has to do with the parallel that I mentioned a couple of days ago, being the way that I see it in my mind). After some observation, and having had some past experience in learning more about people on the autistic spectrum, I believe that a certain, marked detachment is there when it comes to really needing people. So, there is a certain distinction in this area, which I see that you have also observed or learned about through experience. Again, and this is just my knowledge, I have observed some people on the autistic spectrum that were evidently happy with doing the same thing all day, not truly needing a great deal of human interaction in that "process," and, this being a highly important point, it depends on where exactly they fall on the spectrum - some needing a lot less connection than others. Since I mentioned connecting to others, autistic individuals find it rather difficult to do so in a large number of situations, and I believe that it contributes to their ongoing detachment, making it increasingly hard to connect on levels that some people might find necessary. I am an open-minded person, and I see change as a unique voyage of discovery. Overall, it is a large, innate part of who I am as a person.

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    1. I don't know anyone autistic per se, but I do have one friend who, according to your description, "marked detachment" when it comes to needing or doing things with people. She likes carpentry and crafts and will do them all day long quite happily. She's pretty much a hermit.

      Grendel

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    2. "marked detachment" when it comes to needing or doing things with people."

      Grendel,

      Marked detachment to a high degree is quite difficult for me to understand and/or relate to in my mind. Also, being a hermit is not a good thing, the need to connecting being an intrinsic part of me.

      Do you really understand my point on the high intensity, fascinating level that I mean to denote?

      Delete
    3. SS, "Do you really understand my point on the high intensity, fascinating level that I mean to denote?"

      Since I am by nature a high intensity person, an maverick outsider with a quirky curiosity, it's hard to say . . . my life is pretty much always intense, one way or another. I deal with dangerous criminals constantly and my interactions with those fascinating individuals whom I allow into my inner circle are always fraught with highly provocative conversations. I enjoy the weird and iconoclastic. And those are the only people I hang out with. Except for a few highly intellectual 'normals' from the university I attended.

      Grendel

      Delete
  18. Aren´t the worst psycho specimens defined by "a need of absolutely nobody", and they treat all equally hostile, even parents? To get what they want they need to socialize in society, and some need "a kings court" or people to bully (but that surely cannot qualify as "needy" behaviour)?

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  19. I have continuing interactions with a kid who has been diagnosed with aspbergers and later opposite defiant disorder. The entire time I've interacted with this kid I've been teaching him how to navigate. When he was 4 and a half his mom asked him who jesus was. He said "the man in the sky:" I asked him "what is the man doing there?" And he told me without hesitation "I don't know. I guess he's just learning." In my headspace he is a mini socio. I just give him adaptive strategies and create context for him. Til he grows a little more and perhaps realizes he is his own man in the sky, and starts "learning" setting up his own experiments, I guess. What really gets me is how all these people around him try to modify his behavior by force. He is setting up his reality and they are giving him all the wrong "answers." Creating a fun, hostile little enemy for themselves later on. Im like fuck it, I give him all the information he requests, I translate for him, and he knows it. He's only 6 but he can already deduce how to get somewhere the easiest and what team adults are on

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    1. Hi Bette!

      Besides the diagnosis, not that they are chopped liver, what can you say about this kid? He sounds interesting and I have my own Unholy Spawn that are about the same age.

      Always looking for more perspective -

      By the by, I think there is something to be said for providing kids "alternative routes of self discovery."

      Delete
  20. Somehow, today's discussion, and the idea of beings that design and create themselves, made me think of one of the most famous science fiction stories ever written by the great writer, Theodore Sturgeon, who had a great gift for imagination and horror. This particular story is called "Microcosmic God."

    It's kind of awkward, but you can find the entire story on line through a web site called Scribed.

    Here's a brief summary from Wikipedia which gets the idea across:

    "A highly secretive and reclusive biochemist named Kidder produces inventions that transform human life, spanning every aspect of science and engineering. Unbeknownst to anyone, Kidder has developed a synthetic life form, which he calls "neoterics." These creatures live at a greatly accelerated rate, and therefore have a very short lifespan and produce many generations over a short period of time. This allows Kidder, by presenting them with a frequently changing environment, to "evolve" them quickly into highly intelligent lifeforms who fear Kidder and worship him like a god. Kidder can control his neoterics' environment, and thus force them into developing technology far beyond that of humans. While earlier inventions had been his own, Kidder created the neoterics with the intention that they would become the source of many newer and greater inventions which he could claim as his own.

    "Kidder's banker takes over the island on which Kidder has built his laboratory, hoping to use a neoteric design for a new source of power to take over the world. When the banker strikes to kill Kidder and the workers who had assisted in building the power plant, Kidder asks the neoterics to throw up an impenetrable force field.

    "The story ends years later. It is unknown whether or not Kidder is still alive under the shield, and certain that the neoterics have continued to develop technology far in excess of anything controlled by humans. The reader is left to suppose that, if the neoterics were to decide to take the Earth, nothing would stop them."

    Although technology has developed quite a bit from Sturgeon's day, I suspect that we are getting closer and closer to the day when something like this might actually be possible and might actually occur. As the saying goes, "Be afraid, Be very afraid."

    Oh, that's right. Sociopaths don't feel fear like normal people do. If that right there is not enough to scare any empaths reading this web site, I don't know what is.

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  21. Noodling away at work today I was giving this more thought and I think I have another thought to add. What if the difference has to do with comorbid aggression?

    The empathy circuits (affective and cognitive) would be the breaks/controls for that drive. With ASPD individuals, there is gene and specific alleles that seem to be related: the MAOA gene (the so called "warrior gene"). I believe that I read that the Aspie population doesn't have the same high comorbidity (but they aren't zero either...). In aggregate, "paths" would seem more aggressive and less inhibited than Aspies, I think.

    So, riffing on that for another minute, an Aspie, with their inhibitory circuits in tact and in general more fearful/cautious natures would be less inclined to make any waves - they would want to keep everything "feeling" good and there wouldn't be the aggressive drive to "do something."

    "Paths," on the other hand, with our aggressive natures (MAOA genes?) and no sense of "feeling" others pain would, I expect be more inclined to aggress.

    But I still think we're "related." 8)~

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  22. As to needing each other -

    As much as I would like to believe that I am "Harry Haller, the Complete Human Machine," that whole house of cards comes crashing down as soon as my daughter started demanding to be nursed.

    It's the learning to live with each other that's seems to be the hard part.

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  23. can anybody give me a sociopathic tip to ruin someone's life??

    Abc

    ReplyDelete

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