Tuesday, May 13, 2014

Saint sociopath?

So suggests a recent comment:

It is a very natural thing for a sociopath to become a saint. 

Take an irresponsible, impulsive person who accepts that we all die and can't accumulate anything (wealth, fame, pussy good looks, etc) and that everything is relative (e.g. the car you find so ugly would have been considered great 50 years ago, and simply miraculous 300 years ago).

If such a person can find a way to control his antisocial impulses (that includes saying the truth), and do things for the betterment of others, other people will think he's divine. Because he won't be controlled by the typical things (family, country, wealth, fame) that stop one from being creative, altruistic, joyous, loving, tolerant and compassionate.

I'm not completely sold on the conclusion, but the premises actually fit, at least personally. I feel so fine about the idea of death that I have no strong attachment to anything about life -- or at least an understanding that everything is transient, including my own sense of self as I morph from one thing to the next. Will my preferences now still be my preferences tomorrow? Not likely, which is why it's hard to get really worked up about acquiring things. I can't really be bought, which has often made me a terrible employee. While my colleagues were bound by golden handcuffs in the form of family or expensive habits they had to support, I continued living a life of minimalism and doing my own thing. I've often dreamed of living in a shipping container and eating legumes for every meal. Maybe other sociopaths are the same? Is that why it's so easy for us to see things self-destruct, because we never cared much about them in the first place?

Did anyone else relate to this like I did? I know there are plenty of examples of (most?) sociopaths not acting like saints. But it didn't seem that outlandish either, when you consider that sociopaths have a naturally sort of Buddhistic outlook on life. Or does this general disinterest not include all sociopaths? For instance, I hear that there are "covetous sociopaths". I actually have never encountered one. Are they not just especially aggressive narcissists?


  1. I think the way you describe yourself actually reminds me of an anti-establishment libertarian or anarchist or punk rocker or anyone else that doesn't fit into a preconceived mold.
    Years ago, you could have been a vagabond, or gypsy or pirate.
    Anyone that doesn't follow the preconceived rules.

    The Bipolar Empath who was also a punk rocker.

  2. I do want stuff, and sometimes even work to acquire things, but not enough to get terribly troubled by desire for anything in particular. I actually think my apathy about wealth tempers my desire to play the machiavellian social game. Interacting with people is such a hassle, especially when the reward is something I don't care that much about.

  3. Excess is wasteful. If there is something I need, I'll get it. Otherwise, unless it is something interesting/novel, what is the point? Money is just another resource - as long as I have an adequate supply to fulfill my requirements, anything more is unnecessary. Perhaps it might be spent on trying something new on occasion - to seek some sort of mental stimulation - but otherwise outside of access and immediate convenience or efficiency, it is superfluous.

    I was recently critiqued about not drinking alcohol. I find alcohol, outside of expected social establishments once or twice a year, to be unnecessary. I primarily drink water to maintain sufficient hydration, with the occasional juice to provide the necessary vitamins (combined with hydration) or needed sugar as necessity dictates. Beyond that, there is no point, and anything more would have an unnecessary impact on health (though minimal, yet still unnecessary).

    The same applies to other things. For a home, "big enough" is more about "enough" than "big" - I live in a fairly small space, and it is sufficient for my needs. I don't own a car, because I don't need one - public transit and walking (which also provides a secondary benefit for fitness) is sufficient. I calculate my requirements and fulfill them. It is straightforward and clear.

    Waste and excess are inefficient. Which is funny, since efficiency seems to be a sociopathic hallmark, tied with hyper-rationality. Anything more than sufficient is unnecessary, which does show buddhist similarities. Of course there are the occasional impulses, driven by the need to stave off boredom and a lack of caring, so where appropriate more may be done it too is sufficiently completed.

    1. This efficient and rational behaviour touched me once, it looked so dutiful.

    2. Oh Bob...*shaking head*

      People were not really making fun of you for not drinking alcohol. That's not a problem. The issue is that you seem to have no sense of humour, no joy, no sense of fun or adventure whatsoever.
      All logic and efficiency and no fun makes Bob a very dull boy.

      Honestly, I was reading that and thinking about what kind of fuck you must be. I'm picturing missionary , lights off, not even a little dirty talk...vanilla all the way.
      Frighteningly boring.

      And yes, I know that you say you do such daredevil stunts as walking after dark in a bad neighbourhood and that you have a wicked sense of humour that you don't convey on here.
      Seriously, try to lighten up and live a little :)
      Stop trying to analyse everything, especially in the context of you being such an awesome member of the "Sociopathic Elite".

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    4. I am a virgin. While I have a sexual preference (hetero), I don't have an interest in a relationship or a family. And as for casual sex, the risks don't justify the momentary gain. And yes, I do masturbate.

      You are more interesting to converse with when you don't play me-too with the Bite me persona. Ad hominem attacks are the poor man's position, and you are a lot stronger when on topic. Maybe not as enjoyable once it was started, and you not under any obligation to not enjoy yourself, but it is stronger. If you wanted to know my sexual background, you only needed to ask the question for a response. It isn't embarassing.

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    6. I was neither being facetious nor, as self-evident, embarassed. For humor, I don't need to use it here, so I don't. As for apologies, I don't care either way, so it's accepted, if it exists. You said what you said then, and you said what you said now. It exists. You did it because it was entertaining, like for Bite me. Which is valid and not discountable. I may have found it a waste, and disappointing, but not offensive.

      As for what I type, it is translated from thoughts unfiltered. I like the blog, to read another sociopath's perspective on various things, and the environment to interact with people who read the blog without having to go through the effort of wearing a mask. Critique and doubt are expected side effects. And as long as I am still stimulated and unimpeded by the experience, I don't care whether people's thoughts of who I am are right or wrong, because with the wanted experience those thoughts are inconsequential. Annoying in their error and tenacity, and how it might detract from what is relevant, but otherwise not important.

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    8. I like bob's extreme logical behaviour. It serves longtime-planning. The 2 socios I know behave very inconsistently. They both have a reputation-sensible job and I notice that they assume that nobody looks through or exposes them while more or less mistreating clients, coworkers, wifes and so forth.

    9. Bob, I Wasn't being critical re: alcohol, I just found it amusing that your sole criteria for doing something seems to be utility.

      The picture you paint of yourself is of someone who comes home to an apartment devoid of furnishings, eats some plain rice, tepid water and a vitamin, and then stares at the wall until it's time to sleep. I'm sure there is more to you than that.

    10. Long term planning and self-control are the least sociopathic traits I can imagine. Momentary gain always justifies the risks involved. What kind of mask does a person who isn't bothering anybody need?

    11. Oh god... this is tooo fucking delightful for words.

      Bob, you are seriously trying to tell me that you are a middle aged virgin sociopath? You have these anti-social tendencies, lack of fear, impulse control issues, etc etc...
      You said yourself that you have no troubles giving yourself a helping hand, so it's not like there is a physical issue. And are a non drinking, non partying, Virgin?!
      I had tears in my eyes from laughing.

      Bob, you are some special kind of fucked up, but you are most certainly not a sociopath.

      To tell you the truth, I'm starting to think you might be one of those paedophiles that never acts on it, like the guy from a few days ago.

      Erik, that was hilarious. I can't believe you got it spot on :D

      But why do your replies sound almost like you feel guilty for laughing at him?
      This is SW. If his delicate ego can't take the truth, he sure as all shit doesn't belong here.

      One of the things I respect about you is that you don't cling to those labels for dear life to make yourself feel more powerful or excuse your actions.
      You are essentially a lovely guy, who has some amazing insights, listens to advice and actually make changes to better himself. It's rare and it's admirable.

      Far too many people crave that excuse, crave to feel powerful and special, when in reality they are perfectly normal, but miserable.

      That's why they cling onto the sociopath label as soon as they hear about it. It helps them feel good about themselves while avoiding figuring out how to fix their lives.

      They take perfectly normal human traits and twist them in their heads till they sound sociopathic.
      "I walk at night in bad neighbourhood- I'm fearless and have impulse control issues"
      "I eventually open up and have a conversation with a woman where I act interested and she seems to like it - am so charming and manipulative".
      "I burned ants and killed a goldfish as a kid- I have violent tendencies"
      They twist and twist...

      It's sad.
      It does them no good (especially when they start burning their lives to the ground to make the label fit better) and it hampers research into sociopaths as well.

      Anon, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I fucking love you!

    12. fucking lovable anonMay 13, 2014 at 7:16 PM

      Ahahahaha, you're not the first, and I sincerely hope you're not the last. Although by virtue of the distance between us you might actually have the honour of being the safest.

      I AM a bad fucking neighbourhood.

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    14. It should be evident based on ME and other sociopaths that diversity still exists. People are still people, and sociopathic or not, that diversity doesn't disappear. That is the problem with having strict categorization - you personify the disorder while depersonifying the person.

      Of the two factors based on the disorder, I rank higher in factor 1 (psychopathy) than factor 2 (anti-social). As for impulses and lack of long-term planning, giving into that is simple idiocy. Immediate/short term hedonism is a poor survival trait, in primitive and modern societies. I have sufficient self-control, and the will to use, to manipulate myself. Simply put, it is irrational to behave irrationally. Forcing yourself to practice Delay of Gratification gives you self-control, which allows you to do fewer stupid things. If you are going to climb the proverbial ladder, you must be prepared and you must be smart about it, because the greatest enemy will always be yourself. The worst downfall will be from you. So I don't tolerate myself for being foolish. Sociopathy comes with pros and cons, so obviously mitigating those cons is important - especially when it comes to integrating into society. And I am the only one who can (or will) do it for me. Self-sabotage is unacceptable.

    15. Hmm, my comments keep getting deleted. Interesting...

      Anyway, as I was saying:
      Thank you for explaining, Erik.
      That's partly why I say you are a great guy - no matter why you say you did so, you took his feelings into consideration and you made moves to make it right, even though you hadn't really wronged him.
      But why do you care?

      I have such a serious case of not giving a flying fuck about his feelings or opinions of me, that they are simply not a consideration.

      Bob, you are forcing yourself to deny or delay all gratification for the purposes of climbing the proverbial ladder. Ok.
      What's the big pay off?

      Wine, women and song clearly does not apply :)
      Even providing/getting the best for wife and kids is not an issue.
      You are not materialistic, so it's not really about the money.
      Power? Well, power is only good if you're using it...I just don't see it.

      You are a slave to your desperate need to control every little impulse.
      So what is the big pay off for all that sacrifice?

      As for you, Mr Fucking Lovable, what is that you would want to do to me that I should be grateful for the distance? ;)

    16. But from what you have said you don't seem to have any factor 2 traits, which would make you a simple narcissist. Or am I missing something?

    17. Green eyes- I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm some big scary uber-predator super-criminal, partly because even if I was, well, it would sound a bit wanky wouldn't it? I was referring to the simple fact that there is always at least a certain amount of collateral damage to those who choose to hitch their wagon to any cluster b train. Those who have become close to me are no exception, and its not a course of action I would recommend. Charles Bukowski wrote something like that, about being pleased to see ex lovers find happiness without him, that they deserved it after all the shit he'd put them through.
      Although.....you've got my imagination going now and I've thought of two or three scenarios already.....

    18. To answer your question, it is to get high enough in the career of my choice, as I have chosen for it right now, that gives me the freedom to execute that career as I see fit. Sufficient money, flexibility, and power in an interest. Beyond interests, it's about the practicality (the necessity) of a paying job and the insulation success provides. Because beyond all of that, it becomes a question of "why not" instead if "why". I don't believe in a higher purpose - to do things the way as dictated, since it isn't dictated - so I create my own path. If not, why bother?

      As for anti-social behavior, it's lower, not absent. Self-control is important to me. As the proverb goes, you can get a lot more flies with honey, instead of vinegar. And I prefer if people, and society, trust me instead of despise me, for obvious beneficial reasons. Anti-social behavior limits your options in society at large, while pro-social behavior improves them. The rationale is clear and straightforward. If you look like a rose, and smell like a rose, then as far as people are concerned you are a rose, which is what I want.

      As an aside, I'm guessing while past examples given of personal behavior were relevantly used, they weren't extreme enough to trip your thresholds. Too plain? If so, then there are more extreme examples. When I was a teenager, I watched a firefight between the police and a gang in front of my house only 30 feet away. I watched out of the window out of curiousity (guns, and firefights, are extremely rare where I lived) while my family panicked and hid under their beds. The gunshots were loud, but otherwise there was no fear, just curiousity. Probably not the best reaction on my part, given the extreme danger, but it did not register. Another example would be when I entered a patient's room under isolation who had an airborne illness that turned her skin to the consistency of rhinoceros leather (fascinating - a bit annoying too, since accurately getting a needle through leather is next to impossible). Or another patient who was having a violent psychological episode, who wanted to break his restraints and kill me (in hindsight, I probably should have feigned something, because the other nurses in the room were shocked for seeing me not being concerned or even ask for help, and as a result I ended up getting most of the psych calls afterwards until I left, which meant more work unnecessarily since most get anxious or scared). These may appear to be stunning instances, but they were actually quite stupid. Those examples were imminently life-threatening, but because of a neurological/psychological quirk, the threats did not register. They still don't, after the fact. I need a mental alarm for these things, which most people already have. Clarity during intense situations is all well and good, but it is useless at the times when you don't appreciate the instance in the first place.

    19. But these are all examples of your somewhat muted, possibly retarded, reactions to other peoples actions, not examples of antisocial behavior. It's a poor response to the accusation that you don't actually seem to DO anything. And it doesn't even sound like clarity, when people shoot at me I duck. It was your family that saw the situation clearly and accordingly.
      The key word here is ACT. Psychopaths ACT.
      I'm sorry Bob, but I'm just not seeing the psychopathy here, though clearly you are somewhere on the spectrum. Is there such a creature as an autistic narcissist?
      The rhino-skin thing sounded cool though. What the hell did the poor woman have?

    20. That would have made more sense if I'd included the key word in the sentence preceded my somewhat grandiose declaration wouldn't it. It should have read-
      '....clearly and acted accordingly.'

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    22. Ahahahaha! Well said.

    23. As you may (not) have surmised, there are two "factors" to the disorder - psychopathy and anti-social behavior. I did note I was lower in anti-social than psychopathy. But if you want an example, like some sort of proof (or is it more curiousity?), I had ruined the relationship of a close family member of several years because the partner was critical of me using people - a private anger on his part he should have kept to himself. It took about three, maybe four conversations to destroy it. It was devastating for the family member, but they are in a better relationship I helped foster (for them, but also with someone more amenable to me) so it wasn't a complete loss for them.

      As for the patient with leather-like skin, I never read that part of her chart (the only important thing to know at the time was the existence of a airborne pathogen to mask up) - she was near the beginning of morning rounds so I had a lot of work to do in a limited amount of time (which is time consuming when you have multiple patients in a ward isolated due to MRSA/VRE and C. Diff - superbugs - because of the precautions needed). I am wondering what she had myself. Other than sobbing in pain, I don't recall enough signs to look it up.

    24. Let me tell you a story, Bob.

      There once was a little cat named Bob. He was a pretty ordinary tabby cat. Sure, he did some of the fun things that cats enjoy when he was a kitten. But he always felt special, thought that the fact he seemed to be less emotionally driven than other cats made him much better. So he convinced himself he was a fox.

      He looked hard at his fur. Sure enough, it was mostly orange, with some black spots, his tail was fluffy... he was sold. He MUST be a fox.
      So he went to play where the foxes were known to gather. After all, he had a lot to teach his fellow foxes. He met a green eyed Russian Blue cat and told her that he was a very charming and wise fox. She narrowed her eyes and said "But you are not a fox. You are a simple tabby cat". There were others that told him he was most certainly not a fox, including a sweet cat named Erik and a charming, scarred fox named Mr Lovable.
      Now Bob took offense to that. He was a fox. The best of the foxes. And he was determined to prove it. He told them all about his orange fur and his fluffy tail and the fact that he had once killed a little mouse. And they kept on laughing and trying to help his see his delusion - that he was not a fox at all, he was a simple tabby cat...

    25. Of course its curiosity, I don't think that posts made in the comments section of a sociopathy website could possibly constitute proof in even the loosest definition of the term.
      So how did you achieve this evil, Machiavellian plot? Are you saying you gossiped about somebody you didn't like? It can't have been too much of a relationship if you could talk them out of it with a few heart-to-hearts.
      I do realise there are two factors, but is it possible to make the requisite score on the Hare Psychopathy Test if you score highly in one but not the other? Even if you score all 2's in the first and all 1's in the second it barely makes the threshold does it? Or are we looking at another method of evaluation?

    26. Now, as for the rest of your "proofs", Bob, Mr Lovable has already said it all too well. There is no action there that remotely indicates psychopathy.

      If the things you described were evidence of psychopathy, then Mr Lovable here has nothing on me. Short of the shootout, the rest would be a very slow week on a ward for many nurses.
      I have never heard, nor can I find contagious diseases that would cause "rhino skin". But it does sound exactly like scleroderma. A non contagious disease, that would nonetheless require isolation. Partly because they are the ones at risk of infection and partly due to patient distress. So you failing to wear the mask was not you being brave, it was you possibly causing her more pain. Congratulations.
      And I have dealt with violent, psychotic, demented patients more times than I can count without ever getting flustered or injured.

      As for ruining a relationship, well... so fucking what? People do that all the time. Definitely not the trademark of the sociopath.

      This is exactly what I mean when I say that you take absolutely normal things and twist them to convince yourself you actually are sociopathic. Not doing yourself any favours there.

      Also, thank you for trying to explain the ultimate outcome for you of all that sacrifice. But the question remains entirely unanswered in my mind.
      You deny or delay all gratification because you want good standing? Bob, please... ask anyone (but my family or exes) who knows me an they will tell you that I am the sweetest creature. I nonetheless steal, use and abuse, drink, turn people against each other for amusement...still manage to have plenty of fun basically.
      Trust me, if you are nearly as charming as you say you are or nearly as clever, you should have no problem maintaining a good reputation.
      As for advancing in society, once again, what do you ultimately have to gain by it?
      It seems like you sacrifice so very, very much. Actively leech all the fun and colour out of your life, deny yourself the most beautiful, necessary of human connections...and for what?
      A good reputation and climbing a bit higher up the ladder.
      It's sad.

    27. Mr Lovable, what makes you think I have the impression that you're "some big scary uber-predator super-criminal"?
      I have the impression that you are a remarkably intelligent and interesting man. Fantastic fun, with a great sense of humour, can see through the bullshit and have the balls to tell it like it is...

      Nobody is talking about hitching anything to anything else, but we both know how to cause damage and break things. One of my exes used to say to me "You are a treasure. Beautiful to behold and wonderful to have. But you just want to bury it deep in the garden." :)

    28. Hahahaha! I wish I'd thought of that. So I'm going to steal it and totally pretend that I did. Although you don't sound like a girl who's going to wind up under anybodys veggie patch anytime soon. Certainly not mine; there's no room anyway, not with all those damn cats..
      Yeah, I phrased that badly, I didn't think you'd be stupid enough to actually believe that kind of bullshit about anybody here. I meant to say I don't want to give the impression that I am trying to pass myself off as such a creature. I am quite aware there is nothing particularly special about me. Except for all the other stuff you said, of course I'm all those things.

    29. Great parable by the way, I missed it on the first read. Can't wait for the Pixar adaptation. And then maybe a gritty reboot.

    30. You are quite the charmer, Mr Fox.

      I have seen many a wanker on SW proclaiming themselves to be master criminal, uber predators. Pathetic, scared little boys most of them.

      I never got that from you at all. You simply shared the bare bones of some of your experiences.
      I got the feeling that those experiences were genuine. That you have had quite the ride so far and are not prone to empty boasting and thumping your chest. And you maintain that sense of humour :)
      The kind of man with whom I would have loved to be able to share a few drinks and really talk to.

  4. But socios are supposed to be all about material gain, and lofty ideas about not being able to take anything to the afterlife is never even considered? They are HERE...NOW? Isn´t that the core of it all?

    1. That would imply only living for the moment. That the only thing that matters is immediate gain and gratification. That is more aligned with hedonism, and while a lack of impulse control can be situationally present, there is more dimension to any person than just one trait.

  5. But what about "love?" What do you want to give to the
    person you "love" if you are EVEN capable of love?
    A life of eating legumes in a storage bin?"
    Good luck in finding such a person who would settle for such a life.
    So you just use and dispose of your "love object?" If you're a man
    lacking social skills do you kidnap and kill and then resume your
    "minimulist" life like a serial murderer? If you're a sociopathic gal
    do you behave like a "normal" woman who wants things and
    poisions her husband and moves on to the next victim?
    Being a minimulist is NOT being a saint. It is being an inverse
    egotist. "Look how I've sacarficed!" I'm allowed to boast!"

    'By GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith, NOT BY WORKS, least
    any man should BOAST."

    1. i have nothing to gain and nothing to loos
      once you know that life is a game
      if i play a game (love) i give it my all but it don't care about the reward
      when it all goes wrong i have lost nothing and am looking for the next game
      every setback is an opportunity for something new
      imho psychopaths do more to get what they want that's there strenth
      (see things like lovebomming)
      but they really don't care that's there weakness
      once i'm locked on to something i'm nearly impossible to stop
      that allconsuming focus is very addictive
      to handle a mindset like that you need a really strong mind

    2. That's called addiction/obsession. It seems sociopaths have a very strong tendency towards addiction and obsession.

    3. A monk has only the clothes on his back, but he lives a life dedicated to helping people (including himself) without indulging in bad habits. He'd be the sort to live in a shipping container and eat beans.

      Just watch this guy. He's there for whomever is in front of him.

      Sociopaths are very reward driven. Once they start chasing stuff (money, power, sex, status) it tends to get out of hand. They'll hurt themselves and others.

      In order to renounce stuff, a sociopath just has to recognize they they don't need so much. Questions like, "what will society think?" "what will the parents think?" and "oh no, my kids will be broke" don't seem that important. And a sociopath has an easy time rationalizing why doing what s/he wants to do (drop out) is the A-OK thing to do.

      The hard thing is to stop striving for desirable outcomes. It is easy enough to quit a job and live in a shipping container. It is ridiculously difficult to be patient with people, to stop playing games with them, ruining of people, etc.

      Similarly, it is possible to stop eating out at fancy restaurants. Indeed, that eliminates a bunch of temptations.

      But a sociopath that shops for himself will catch himself trying to get a better deal, scarf the free samples, graze for free in the bulk aisle, etc.

      I try to control myself not to "be good" but to get some goddamn self-control. Living an ascetic life makes it a lot easier for me, in the way that not having a fridge full of ice cream makes it easier to lose weight.

  6. Always feels to me that getting stuff is more fun than having it if i loost it i don't care the only thing than i i have to find something els to do

  7. i know a guy psychopath
    slacker for most of his life
    he gets maried and starts his own company works his ass off and does well
    he does not care about succes or money
    it's all the means to an end

    1. pscyhopath = even better than the real thing

    2. That would make a good bumper sticker.

    3. What do you mean by that?

    4. Nevermind, I got it now.

  8. I think we should all strive to become self-sufficient, and independent.

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    1. Being nice to selfMay 13, 2014 at 5:56 AM

      If you keep telling yourself you are full of apathy everyday, you will indeed be full of apathy. Watch some Eckhart Tolle videos on youtube, and realize that having passion for the moment (which you do have, as you are able to engage in a conversation with someone on any topic) is what matters and when you are alone let go of these stupid thoughts that subdues your interest in life in general. Your thoughts are not you, focus on the you who can be engaged in the moment, you who has a strong presence in the moment.

      As I say these things to you, I'm sort of projecting, because I'm like you and ME in this regard, I have similar care-free attitude towards material gains, and hence I am not the one to be bought or kept under control. I am also pretty sure I am an empath, I have a very strong sense of not wanting to hurt anyone, doing my best for my responsibilities, and internal shame and guilt when I slack. I come to this site to read how naturally free of internal prisons sociopaths are, so I can forgive myself easily and not over-punish myself.

      I guess the bottomline is, most of what ME said up there applies to a lot of people, not just sociopaths. It suggests a certain void in thoughts, a high level of boredom when left to one's thoughts, an unease of a creative mind when not actively involved in creating or interacting with others. Stop the thoughts in such circumstances, and look for something creative to do or a person to engage. Be nice to yourself.

    2. "I realize that living in an apartment surrounded by material wealth would probably be the same as living in a shipping container munching beans, for example."

      If you genuinely believe this Erik, what you're suffering from is a lack of imagination.


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    4. You want them to change so they continue being interesting to you. While not necessary for them, it is valid to you. It is one of your wants you desire. Wants typically exist in a bubble, with only one demand - to be fulfilled.

    5. You feel the same about life as you do about death? Prove it.

    6. If only I can upload a sweet little pic of my V for Bobby. Something to masturbate too. You'd enjoy it. I guarantee. ;)

    7. I don't think he'd know what to do with it, assuming he recognised it or even guessed what 'v' stands for. Probably thinks you're talking about the movie.
      You can show me though if you like, I'm familiar with the creature.

    8. I know what a vagina is. I may be apathetic, but I am not dead. Sexual attraction and gratification gives a momentary chemical high, but beyond that casual promiscuity isn't sufficient reason.

    9. Ahahahahahahaha! How would you know?
      Because, having devoted considerable time and resources to researching the subject in depth I can assure you it most certainly is.

    10. And there is nothing casual about my promiscuity. It is highly premeditated and deliberate. Even when its not.

    11. Insufficient reason for me, sufficient reason for you. The risks, complications, and efforts needed exceed the brief physical sensation of pleasure. For me. It would be a fault to project what you desire as the same for others.

    12. Best conversation on SW I've seen in 2 years.

      Come on Bob...
      How do you know what you're missing?
      It's not nearly the same high you get from stroking the snake while watching high class British porn. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmqbb7Jle9k )
      It's a million times better with the right partner.

      Would the whole world around you collapse if you got fucked?
      Hell, try it with a high priced call girl. No real effort, guaranteed good time, well worth the money...

    13. No, it probably wouldn't if HE did it. Things have been known to break or fall off shelves around me though.

    14. I want Bobby's love ladel throbber to fuck my mouth & pussy in real hard. Real fuckin hard. I'll bring out your bad boy to the light, whilst I suck, dance, and prounce up & down your stripper pole. Cover me up with your jerkin juice and feed me up good Bobby.

      The juice crew is always welcome to join in. Hahahaha

    15. I never quite got the fixation some people have for sex, or its high status. I understand the cultural influences, on how they stem from biological influences, but outside of that, sex just "is". Today I don't have sex. Tomorrow I might have sex. But for me the sex would be to use someone (to support other tactics for something wanted from them by giving them enjoyable sex, which makes them like you more) and as a man there are greater social risks for that (discounting pregnancy or disease) than for a woman. There are many ways available to use someone between here and sex, and most of them have less risk attached to them. I have gotten what I wanted without it so far, and if someday I need it, I'll use it.

    16. It might not hurt to have some practice, though. Otherwise, you might end up manipulating yourself.

    17. Anon 7:10,
      Jesus F Christ, I think you've managed to turn me off women, never mind about Bob.
      That's just plain...gross.

      Mr Fucking Lovable, I bet you do.
      I know all too well what happens when a tornado meets a volcano...


    18. Bob... you sound like you are desperately trying to convince yourself that you don't want it, don't need it and are much better off without it.

      "But for me the sex would be to use someone (to support other tactics for something wanted from them by giving them enjoyable sex, which makes them like you more)"

      You are middle aged and you have no experience.
      Sex is not what they show in porn or even movies. It's not just about interlocking various parts to get a quick release of hormones.
      You can't just go through the most "efficient" motions and think that the woman will be so charmed by it, that you will be able to use it as a tool of manipulation. Even if you had a huge cock and a never tiring, skillful tongue, that's ridiculous.
      The way you deny yourself and try to rationalise and control every tiny little urge... you are more robot than man.

      Sex can be infinitely better, more complex and satisfying.
      That's what the big deal with it is.
      But you will never be a decent lover as long as you don't let yourself loosen up and enjoy, so you will never be able to use it to manipulate them.

      That's why I recommended that you get a high class call girl, have a few drinks and just relax. Forget about sociopathy, forget about that ladder and simply enjoy being with a woman and receiving pleasure.

      There are no real risks and it's minimum effort.
      If you don't like it, then feel free never to fuck again.

      Maybe the reason why you feel so empty is because there is nothing really in your over-controlled life to enjoy.

    19. It's not about physical pleasure for me, hence the lack of interest to obtain it. Same with drugs or any other periphenalia/method that brings it.

      There are people who take that to the extreme, or asexuality, but I would not classify as one of them. I have "a cock", but it doesn't drive me. Sex is not a big deal for me. It's on the shelf - it's available - but I don't buy it, and won't unless it provides some other unique advantage otherwise unavailable elsewhere (which, as of this post, hasn't happened yet). Sex by itself means nothing to me.

    20. I can understand your attitude Bob, to some extent, and even find it sort of admirable. I don't wish to be driven solely by my desires and need for escape. I would be glad to find fulfillment and satisfaction in the world around me, but I can't. On account of being a fucking psychopath.
      The problem you don't seem to see is that what you are describing is the antithesis of what you are claiming to be. Where's the charm without seduction? How does an emotionally shallow person forgo the physical? What are you manipulating people for? What are you failing to feel remorse or take responsibility for?
      And that's just touching on the factor 1 traits you claim to score highly in. You don't even seem to be a terribly effective narcissist.

    21. Sex and seduction are not the same thing. Seduction doesn't simply equal engaging in sex - being attractive and charming for a man is a form of seduction. If I remain fit, clean, and wear myself well (physically attractive) while acting warm, nice, accepting, and engaged (charm), that is for a man the ideal form of seduction. And it works for me.

      As for manipulation and lack of remorse, that is a purposely rhetorical question. That is just a part of you - to put simply, an effectively base form of thinking, or "your nature" (put crudely). For choosing to manipulate - I manipulate when I need to, and don't manipulate when I don't need to. The manipulation isn't a compulsion, but a natural means to an end.

      By the way, don't forget that how I talk and act in this blog's comments are not representative of what you see in real life. What you read is a voluntary window I'm giving into how I think internally, not how I exist and act externally as a person in real life. This is being further confounded by preconceptions and perceptions of what the reader is looking for. People frequently make that mistake. The divide between how a sociopath thinks and acts is significantly wider than neurotypical thinking and acting. It's why even after investigation and exposure that there is surprise and disbelief (see ME's interviews for examples). That is because, in particular, people are comparing the preconceptions of low-functioning sociopaths and applying it with successful high-functioning sociopaths.

      The PCL-R was designed based on low-functioning psychopathic criminals. There are parallels to high-functioning non-criminal/violent sociopaths, but not perfect alignment. It's an understandable mistake. People make the data fit the model, and when it doesn't they naturally do the counter-logical thing in rejecting the data (instead of the model). It's a well-understood psychological phenomenon.

    22. Bob,

      I think the difference you seem to be missing is that even high-functioning sociopaths aren't so worried about their reputation (or whatever) that they refrain from basic, enjoyable, human activities, like eating, drinking, and fucking.

      One of the first conversations we had on here had to do with cost-benefit analysis. I recall that I asked you whether there was any point at which, if the benefit of an antisocial act outweighed any possible cost to you, you would do something antisocial. And you pretty much said no. I don't think sociopaths, even high functioning ones, think that way. Sometimes, no one is looking. Often, no one cares.

      This would all come across as more honest if you just didn't like the taste of alcohol, or have an unrefined palate, or you had a bad sexual experience once, or only get turned on by a fetish that no one else was into.

      I agree with some of the other comments. Go get laid. Get a hooker. If that seems too intimidating, go to a strip club. If chicks aren't your thing, there are plenty of guys out there who will accommodate you. You literally have nothing to lose except your excuses. Whatever is holding you back, it is something other than hyper-rational high-functioning sociopathy.

      Have you ever looked into schizoid personality disorder? People with that disorder tend to have shallow, blunted emotions and empathy, lack of interest in friends or sex, etc.

    23. Reputation is societal currency. It's like the glowing reference you obtained to get a better job - you acquire it to spend it elsewhere. Everyone earns it and spends it, sociopath or non-sociopath. Good reputation, bad reputation, it doesn't matter.

      This is what would classify as Tenacity under Charles Peirce's model of knowledge. If you don't want to accept what is in front of you, if you believe it to be a lie or a delusion, then I can't help you. And in the end I don't care because it is irrelevant, because reputation with an anonymous pseudonym on an online comment section has no practical value. The reason I come here and comment is to discuss topics of interest, and respond with relevant anecdotes like everyone else. If someone reflects on it, learns from it, discounts it, or hates it, then in any case it is a fair exchange. Otherwise, you are overvaluing the reputation in a room with other anonymous pseudonyms. The difference with me is, because it is anonymous, I can try wielding how I am on the inside and see what it is like in a space that has no consequences. So why not? It's something new.

      I'd just hate for you to be in error, when the one person who does know the truth can type this message. Hence clarification. That, and an attack can be met with a response, because it is immaterial - and therefore without expense - like a side game. But beyond that, you shouldn't be taking it that seriously, because I can just as equally be lying as I can be telling the truth.

      Schizoid though, that's an interesting one. Not as plain as narcissism. Thank you for taking the effort to work that one in, it's quaint.

    24. @Green sexy eyes,
      What's so gross about an orgie and cum all over eachother. I'm a transsexual women by the way, attracted to males.

    25. Currency exists to be spent. What are you saving it for?

    26. Career. I'm in a highly-competitive career with a high barrier to progress in, that equally judges not only your CV but your reputation and social status within the occupation.

    27. Power corrupts. Do you think you will change your behaviour once gained power?

    28. Lots of people manage to prosper in highly-competitive careers without becoming an ascetic.

    29. Especially socios are known for their moderation and healthy balance if it turns to live a little bit

    30. Lots of people are not diagnosed sociopaths and/or known as such in their careers. In particular my career choice means additional asceticism due to the presence of awareness and its associated risks. It does double-duty as a buffer as well as currency - ME provided me with a hard and relevant example if revealed, so appearing as antithetical to sociopathy as possible provides that much more insulation against any suspicions. It must be the last thing they think of. Simply put, the risks of detection are higher than most professions, and the consequences of detection could destroy my career (and years of effort building it). I have a career objective and I will not allow it to be derailed or destroyed by myself, never mind anyone else in my way. I won't make that mistake.

    31. Career... good reputation... blah blah blah.
      Most pathetic excuses I have ever heard of. And that's really saying something considering I dealt with addicts.
      Honestly, Bob...

      You are not a preacher's daughter in the 19th century. Heaven forbid you get felt up or be seen taking a sip of alcohol and acting in a less than pristine manner...

      No matter how much you are challenged to show a single action of yours that is sociopathic, to show a real trait, anything, you just keep changing the goalposts.
      First it's that you were diagnosed as being antisocial by 2 shrinks.
      Then it's that you only score high on the psychopathy scale, but not on anti-social one.
      Then when Mr Fox challenged you to show any way that you could score high on psychopathy, you start claiming that those tests are all unfair anyway and how in real life, you really do embody all that...

      Your backtracking, denial and excuses are just plain sad.

      Most of your "extreme" proofs put together would not make a week to mention on a ward. I'm not joking here.
      "Those examples were imminently life-threatening, but because of a neurological/psychological quirk, the threats did not register."
      That's what you call going into an isolation room without a mask? Or dealing with a restrained psychotic patient? Imminently life threatening? Haha!!!!

      You are claiming you are charming and seductive, can manipulate at will and will be able to use sex to hook women if you so choose?
      Here's the hard truth for you: I fail to see anything charming or seductive about you.
      Keeping yourself fit and appearing interested might help them see you as a "nice guy guy who can look after himself", but that's about it. Those are not traits of psychopathy.

      You are some kind of fucked up though. And clearly have a desperate need to feel special. I quite liked Mr Fox's suggestion of autistic narcissist. The two things I said you most closely resemble. But Bot's quite possibly onto something with that schizoid suggestion.

      M.E. got fucked up career wise because she actually talked about her antisocial tendencies, lies, seduction games, manipulation, times she abused her position as a lawyer...etc.

      What exactly would people have to fear from you?
      And don't give me that crap that people would fear you because of the label itself. No, they won't. Unless they are completely crazy "slayers".
      People generally freak out about the label because it makes those last pieces of the puzzle finally slide into place. All those times they had that bad feeling, like they were being used and played, for example.

      I'm pretty sure the people around you would have been skeptical if I told them that you are a sociopath. But I bet it would have made a few of them go "hmmm" if I told them that you have some extremely fucked up fetish you are terrified of having exposed...there is such a thing as being too clean ;)

      You have entirely failed to show how you are sociopathic or why you need to take such measures and use masks to hide. Especially considering you never did and still don't really *do anything*.
      Actions, remember? Not supposed feelings, or lack thereof, towards something that someone else was doing.

      You living like some kind of monk is not testament to you being the strongest and smartest of sociopaths. It's just you denying yourself any fun, any pleasure in life, with no real discernible payoff.

    32. While I don't mind if you get off on twisting extremes such as venomous assaults (and try to balance with heaping praise in others) - it's why you come back to comment, so you mind as well enjoy it - they're starting to turn into rants. The barbs used to be eloquently effective in their scripting (passionate even), but they're longer and more repetitive than before, which is dulling the effect.

    33. Venomous assaults balanced out with heaping praise...guess again.
      I simply tell people what I think about them.

      But yes, it is a little long and repetitive. I'm used to people not being quite as desperately deluded as yourself.
      And I was never passionate about you in any way. I have simply been bored enough to try to help you ;)

    34. Ok, ok... bored enough to get a little kick out of kicking you around.
      Helping was a a side effect. A bit of tough love if you will.
      Trust me when I tell you that of the regulars that were around before the book came out, I am one of the sweetest.

    35. Bob,
      I've read all the comments and I really don't understand why other readers are giving you a hard time. You actually come across as extremely smart, while also being the coldest, calmest person here. Your tone in all of the conversation is completely without emotion, which makes me think you're actually the most psychopathic person here - capable of pretty much anything.
      Everybody else seems intent on eliciting an emotional response from you - which they have failed to do. Does seem somewhat childish...

  10. I relate to that to an certain length, its hard to get me to do anything for the betterment of anyone but myself. For me to even have the slightest urge to do something nice for someone I must feel something, anything, for them. But I find relationships of any sort overbearing and unmanageable. Most times I can't maintain a relationship for more than a few weeks because the lack of effort i put into it and the fact that I refuse to run to their aide when they need something. So I don't feel the need to acquire any type of status to impress those around me or any need to seem like a saint. I'm quite fine in myself I like what I've accomplished so far in life and if I were to die tomorrow I wouldn't feel the need to try and prevent it in any way. I accept the fact that i will die and i don't feel the need to avoid the inevitable but embrace it.

  11. It's difficult to read your articles with that face in front of the text. It's quite annoying actually.

  12. I come to this site frequently as ME does seem to find articles of interest to me that I have missed elsewhere and often read the comments but still find myself bemused and somewhat underwhelmed. Perhaps my definition of sociopathy is different to others here but I fail to see anything sociopathic in any of them. How is living simply and obeying rules by choice sociopathic? How is not feeling quite as emotional as you perceive others to be a problem? Is it even possible to be a virgin teetotaler sociopath?
    I drink, fight, steal, cheat, lie, take drugs, fuck, anything at all to fill the constant nagging empty hole I feel inside. None of these things have really been worth the trouble, and yet they all are because the alternative is unbearable.

    1. What as ME done to be so bad?

  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

  14. Realize that it is not the other person you are doing it for, it is not the other person you are helping. If you want someone/something to be healed, its you. No one else needs to change except you. If there are SICK people in your world and you are helping them, its because you helped MAKE them sick. So in conclusion its not really saintly of you to have attracted sick people, and then been made famous for doing so.

  15. Like if you're a healer, its because you've caused a lot of pain.

  16. Jesus was a healer, but I think (if I put myself in his mind) that he would know that he's only doing it for himself. Because he is the problem (not the people he is healing). They're just.. projections.

  17. Like, if you're trying to help other people you will get NOWHERE. Because there is no one out there to heal.

  18. It's like I'm only here to take care of me, if I take care of me, then everyone will be fine.

    1. We care and do listen to you. Have a peaceful night. Take your medicine and remember to keep on with your self care.

    2. Lol I just get stuck in those loops where I try to explain math to a two year old. Sorry.

    3. I'm so glad that you care. Thank you! I really am here for my own entertainment though!

    4. And if you get something out of it then thats good too I guess.

  19. Well, yeah, that is sort of my question, not just of ME but of other commentors here also. I just don't see the problem. Being a bit of a bitch sometimes and not caring about possums doesn't seem like a serious mental disorder. Nobody likes possums where I am from and there's no shortage of bitches either. Likewise, not being overly emotional is just the default male position here.

    1. Ok everybody lets confess our crimes of the moment!

    2. I don't see anything on this blog from a mother of an adopted RAD child. I just saw here a lot of back bitting and hatred being thrown arould. I would like to share my story in a nutshell and be able to receive some advice from the clinitians, laypersons, parents and sociopaths. Please identify yourselves so that I know who I am talking to.
      I have a RAD child that I adopted at 11 months old. She had suffered physical and emotional abuse. This was back in 1990. At the time, we did not know anything about RAD...all we (I) knew is that there was some very serious behavior issues inside of this young girl. Over the next 9 years, I proceeded to take her to doctors and therapists. I heard everything from, "There isn't anything wrong with this child...I believe it stems from your relationship with your father????" Or, "You are just not loving her enough.". My husband would tell me that I was being too hard on her. My lack of support was dwindling. I started to believe that I was a very poor mother. But, we had adopted another child 2 years after adopting our daughter. We received him the day after he was born...he was loving and warm. He showed none of the particularities. I couldn't be that bad...surely not.
      Finally, we found Lennon & Associates near Indianapolis. They specialized in adopted children. After meeting with Dr. Lennon, I was in total awe. He described our daughter to us! My reply, " How long have you lived with our daughter?"
      She was now 10 years old and they told us that they rarely see a change in kids this old. Mostly, they were going to teach us how to survive and live with her. NEVER would I have imagined the paths my life has taken because of RAD. I truly believe these children belong in a household where they can be the only child. The danger they can impose on younger siblings is frightening.
      I am so sorry for rambling on, but I have needed to spill some of this out for so long. As a parent, it feels so shameful. You constantly ask yourself if you could have done more? Was I the right mother for this child? How could I look at her and know she has built this huge chasm between my husband and I? Is that disgust I feel? Did she really just say she wanted to kill me? Who will believe me? She charms everyone. Am I losing my mind? I have to move her into her father's house permanently. I have to be able to sleep at night and my son deserves to feel safe. I will be crucified as a mother for this decision...I can't believe I am abandoning this precious 16 year old girl. Who am I kidding, she is scary. I love her with all my heart, but she scares me!

      I have learned more than I could ever have imagined about RAD, ODD, holding therapies, and bonding. My current questions are surrounding RAD kids that grow up that were not able to benefit from therapy. My daughter has flipped the coin from RAD to sociopath. Instant gratification is the name of the game despite the cost it may inflict on her 3 children, her parents, classmates, grandparents etc. I have been instrumental in having her first two children removed from her care where they were in a flop house covered head to toe in scabies. Sadly, she just continues to go from guy to guy and pregnancy to pregnancy. She is 23 now and I do not have any legal recourse.
      Again, forgive me for the lengthy email. My last question. How do you have a relationship with a sociopath? I don't want to give up on her. I always want to have hope...but, hope tears my heart apart some days.
      Appreciatively yours,
      Debbie Mckinley

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. To Dennis: be favorably and supportant to her and have other, more important problems yourself. Switch interest.

  20. Interesting! You described me in the article. I am considered successful in the eyes of everyone I know...lol

  21. Kevin Dutton is talking about the same idea in his books, he is for example using Andy Mcnab as the picture of the ideal psychopath and someone for everyone to look up to. (although he tend to use the terms GOOD PSYCHOPATH and BAD PSYCHOPATH to describe high and low functioning psychopaths). He also specifically discusses the idea of St Paul as a psychopath (assuming a good one?). The idea is interesting for sure - it clearly fits in with the idea of psychopaths or sociopaths as being a scale rather than a categorical question. I've always wondered what Robert Hare thinks of Kevin Dutton's idea of good psychopaths. I wonder if he would even agree that they can for sure be considered psychopaths.

  22. About the "Covetous Sociopath" thing, I was diagnosed with aspd and land at 32 on the PCL-R, and I seem to fit that description. I've been a kleptomaniac since childhood and the acting "on the rationalization that they alone must restore the karmic imbalance" definitely resonates with me.
    The last time I visited my father (which is never enjoyable OR beneficial besides making sure he doesn't completely disown me) he purposely locked me out on the deck while I was enjoying some tea, before leaving home for some errands. It felt so righteous to just toss my fathers' nice cup right over the fence, making a very satisfying shattering sound. I picked up the evidence, and for the rest of my visit, all of the bullshit that usually drove me crazy felt immensely less irritating. I wondered If I should destroy some small thing every time I have to visit.

  23. Destroying an object provides an outlet - to focus drives of anger and violence onto something. Because it is his, you are in a way inflicting the violence onto him by proxy. It allows you to redirect the frustration physically onto something with fewer (or no) consequences.

    You should look at other, more resilient, objects to vent out on. Punching bags (or something that can be used as one, when you don't have one) are a popular choice, since you can inflict without consequences. Have your cake and eat it too.

  24. Being a physicist deep down, a programmer with electronics and quantum phenomena knowledge, it feels natural to see everything around us as a flow of information, of energy in a (discrete - just an agnostic view) time and space. The universe is Turing complete, we can build Turing complete machines that can simulate any law of physics (known and unknown), the unknown part is derived from the finite nature hypothesis of Edward Fredkin - "What cannot be programmed cannot be physics".

    Even if time and space aren't discrete, the universe can be simulated, once the basic laws, the laws that govern it are directly or indirectly derived and programmed into a machine. Once something is invented, you can't (un)invent it, so the question is when, not if, the laws are found. Simulating a universe, maybe just a crude version of it, is enough to create /life/ as we know it.

    There could be hundreds of simulations, billions (it doesn't even matter, the probability that you are in one (a simulated universe) right now then is far greater than actually living THE real universe (from this point, that won't even be relevant). Having this information, think about death, life and everything in between, there is no morality, because everything is /just/ a probabilistic/deterministic interaction between simulated particles.

    Maybe this little story i repeat to myself is just a post factum _story_ that i invented to keep my views in line with the fact i do not have remorse, a justification of some sorts. The fact is i don't harm people, i do have my own internal moral system, and one of my life goals is to procreate, have and raise my flesh and blood.
    And fucking find a buffer overflow in this universe.

    Related to the article : eventually you start searching for what makes you tic. And what makes others tic. Then you hack it, then you get bored of hacking and you realize you are mortal. The you start acquiring knowledge and people around you, and start building stuff, getting money and then...then i don't know, i'm at the stage of acquiring money.

    All the best.

  25. I have a lot of stuff I like. Antiques especially and many other things as well. In January my house was broken into and the thieves did what thieves do. I should have been angry, sad, or scared. I had very little reaction.
    I would have loved to have been home because I would have killed them. But other than that almost no emotional reaction. It was just stuff. Now, I feel a bit liberated from it. I studied Buddhism for a while and find I am not attached to the stuff I worked hard to get. But, Buddhism like all religion for me is silly, too. I look at myself and I now know how strange I am.



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