Monday, May 5, 2014

Truth serum?

I had dinner with some doctor friends of mine who were relating stories about how people react under anesthesia. My favorite story was about a 14 year old kid started hallucinating and feeling like he was being kidnapped by his doctors. When the doctors told him, "No, we like you, we're your friends."

The kid screamed back, "You like me?! You want to rape me?!"

After like 10 minutes of trying to calm him down, they decided to give up on the procedure for the day. The patient had stopped screaming enough for the doctors to explain that they were about to get his parents, and that seem to relax him. While the doctor was in the waiting room explaining to the parents about the child's adverse reaction to the drugs he heard a nurse yelling, "He's running!"

The child had apparently faked compliance to trick his captors into thinking he would cooperate with them. Really, he was just biding his time to escape. Unfortunately, as he sprinted away from the clinic, he seemed to be headed directly for a busy street and was still in his impaired condition. The doctor kicked off his clogs and started running after him in his socks. When the kid saw the doctor behind him, he freaked out again, running even faster. Finally the doctor caught up with him and tackled him to the ground before he ran out into the busy intersection.

But the stories that I thought were most interesting from a philosophical point of view were the stories about patient reactions to the drug Versed/Midazolam. Apparently it is a psychoactive drug with some funny side-effects. From Wikipedia:

In susceptible individuals, midazolam has been known to cause a paradoxical reaction, a well-documented complication with benzodiazapines. When this occurs, the individual may experience anxiety, involuntary movements, aggressive or violent behavior, uncontrollable crying or verbalization, and other similar effects. This seems to be related to the altered state of consciousness or disinhibition produced by the drug.

From the doctors' stories, it seems that the most common manifestation of this in female patients is to cry. For the male patients, a very common manifestation of the verbalization is to turn into complete perverts. One of the female doctors was telling me that it was really eye-opening to her to have this uptight conservative businessmen come in for their procedures and then say raunchy-as-hell things once the Versed gets flowing.

I asked them perhaps the age old question, which is the real them? is the Versed version the more authentic version of the patient? (In vino veritas?) Or does the Versed alter their natural thought patterns? The doctors seemed to think it was definitely the former. As an example, one doctor told me about one of her patients that seemed so inappropriate on Versed that she looked him up online afterwards and found out that he was a relatively prominent public figure who had a history of sexual indiscretions and cover-ups. The thing about Versed is that it also causes temporary amnesia, so the patient doesn't typically remember how they behaved on the drug.

I, of course, thought that an enterprising unethical doctor should start taking video of these patients and using the tapes for blackmail. What better way to ruin someone's life than to shame them in the court of public opinion, right? And they deserve it too, I bet. Best case (?) scenario, the patient/target is not aware that he has these particular flaws and we're doing him/her a favor by letting him/her know about them in no uncertain terms. Worst case scenario, the patient/target already knows about his/her character flaw and has been working overtime to mask it from the general public. Fakers. We should not have to tolerate this level of deception and/or hypocrisy from our fellow humans. These people deserve to be outted. If they are innocent, harmless, or if there is nothing really wrong with what they're doing then I'm sure they'll be fine. If bad things happen to them, then they obviously must have gotten what they deserved. 

53 comments:

  1. I hope you just are trying to sarcastic.

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  2. I thought you were against public shaming.

    And can Versed be administered orally? Like it was slipped in a drink...

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    2. Why did you delete your comment?

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  3. What you wish for another, is what you wish for yourself.

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    1. I'd rather not be put into a wood chipper.

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  4. Sounds like a quick way to lose a medical license.

    MelissaR

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  5. I don't think people should trust Wikipedia (I don't).
    Anyway I think its funny how you said you thought of blackmailing people.
    As to the question at hand, I think the versed person is who they truly are. Everyone, no matter the deny it, tries to be what they think people want them to be or the ideal person; so do it consciously others unconsciously. So they suppress their true nature by doing so giving birth to their new persona. I believe when a person acts out in such a way, it's thief subconscious coming out of the box they stuffed it

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    1. Oh, Katie is so smart!

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  6. CJ Jung has a wonderful quote that seems to apply:

    "What is left unconscious comes to us as fate".

    The way I interpret that is that the parts of our psyche we most want to hide (even from ourselves) have a way of bubbling up to the surface until the divided personality is forced to acknowledge its presence.

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  7. Isn't the context important here? The only way the blackmail would be successful is if the audience didn't understand that the patient was reacting to a particular drug. Sure, perhaps everyone has this side to them, but if they successfully repress it until given a drug that brings it out, what's the problem?

    I'm assuming ME is being hypocritical as a means of pointing out hypocrisy. Sociopaths are the last group that should be complaining about fakers.

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    1. It was a form of sarcasm, as I am confident ME recognizes the hypocrisy.

      I recall an anecdote where I once had a physically-adverse reaction to a medication for a temporary illness. I had been taken to a hospital. The paramedics and doctor were doubtful something had occurred - my vital signs were normal and I was perfectly calm. In hindsight I should have feigned distress, but at the time due to the nature of the incident I figured being as clear and straightforward as possible would maximize the diagnostic and treatment processes.

      I wonder how sociopaths might behave under a chemical influence (ie. a mentally-adverse reaction). I recall being legally drunk once, but other than an issue with physical coordination, my thinking processes did not seem altered (maybe slower?).

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    2. Bob! You've only been drunk once? You've got to be kidding.

      When I get drunk, I can think normally. Other activities, like driving, take more conscious effort. ;)

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    3. You must be an exception Bob. Many sociopaths don't even need to be altered for their 'alter personalities' to surface. Within 3-6 months they'll definitely exhibit some interesting 'traits' to scare/entertain.

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    4. But the still like to give women roofies.

      God knows what the fucker did. Things were missing and I remember a few things, also.

      It was nice of him to call me later to be sure I wasn't dead.

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    5. Hieronymous Bot, right you are; sociopaths are the last group that should complain about fakers. They have widely separate personalities for each circle they evolve in. One for work. One for home. (Well so do other people but not to the same extent). One for when nobody sees them. Plus sub personalities catered to each person within those groups - those are what makes them most endearing.

      The masks.

      They absolutely detest when one world inadvertently crosses over the other, particularly if someone witnesses it and points it out to them.

      On the other hand, maybe a truth serum might clarify what is truly important to them?

      OldAndWise

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    6. Anon @ 243: What alter personality? I am who I am with or without being inebriated, from what I evidenced.

      As for getting drunk, I don't drink unless it is prudent during social occasions. Otherwise there is no beneficial use to consume it. I primarily drink water, with the occasional milk or juice for necessary vitamins.

      By the way, sociopaths do not have different/multiple personalities. It is about adapting to the environment (ie. the person(s) you interact with at that moment). It's a process most people go through (colloquially known as the "public and private faces"), except that with sociopaths it is more pronounced and varied due to significantly different thought processes. As for "complaining about fakers", it is the irony and hypocrisy that was the subject, not complaint. For detesting crossover, there isn't any - that is a projection on your part. Any annoyance is due to the additional effort needed to deal with both at the same time. It's not detestable. It's inconvenient. Why deal with two conflicting tasks simultaneously, when you can more easily deal with one at a time?

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    7. I'm sure you are the life of the party, Bob. ;)

      I drink (and eat, and fuck) for pleasure, and a myriad of reasons other than pure utility.

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    8. According to Hare, some sociopaths exhibit traits of multiple personalities.
      I personally have witnessed this myself. i know you think Hare is outdated, but a lot of what he says seems accurate to me. Speaking from personal experience.

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    9. Well said Bob. Your thinking process hits the spot for me.

      Hieronymous , chuckles girl... i agree, we all have those pleasure needs that need to be met. As long as individuals are not hurting themselves or others around them -- go all out and have some good fun.
      Fuck, drink and be merry. Lol. ;)
      Responsibility, and within reason I'd say, or else the consequences do have a way in catching up with anyone over time. :)

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    10. Actually, If you are implying I am dapper or dull during a party, I don't act that way. Like I said, I do drink when socially/publicly appropriate, and by extension behave appropriately. How I act in public and in these comments are radically different (for obvious reasons). While ME noted her preparations in having stories available, I typically incorporate situationally-appropriate wit or anecdotes based on active conversation. That and false interest as well as active listening. Certain things said or done (or not said or done) by people can be informative, so in that it can be sporatically interesting or useful.

      As for multiple personalities, the disorder itself is under contention for its validity due to cultural bias. As for the related traits, it is important to recognize that by themselves they must be evaluated skeptically. Correlation does not equal causation.

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  8. We all have an unconscious, some examine their's, some don't. It's about how well you know yourself. Just a basic part of human nature.

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  9. I did kind of have to laugh at this post about the medications because I work in a lockdown psychiatric facility, and the things I see on a daily basis....theres just no limit to human creativity on crazy.

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  10. "the patient/target is not aware that he has these particular flaws and we're doing him/her a favor by letting him/her know about them in no uncertain terms. Worst case scenario, the patient/target already knows about his/her character flaw and has been working overtime to mask it from the general public"

    If the drugs are altering the behavior, the "flaw" doesn't really exist.
    If the "flaws" are actually there and the drug simply brings them to the surface there really is to need to show them. they already know about it.
    A video of either instance ( unless properly presented ) would only show to make you out to be the bad guy, as both scenarios can be said to be the result of drugs.

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  11. ME's agenda is to bring non-sociopathic people down to her level. As much as possible she'd like to sink everyone so low that her own behavior looks normal. She's against public shaming when it comes to poor old her and other sociopaths but to think she has scruples or principles is ridiculous. Sociopaths are all about power, and power calls for a double standard which is : Holding everyone to strict codes of conduct and on the other hand acting however you want.

    That said she is either more unhinged than usual here or she is being sarcastic. After all, she must have gotten similar messages from people about publishing her memoir anonymously. In fact I'm sure people said the exact same things: " People deserve to know who the sociopaths are! " Witch hunt!

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    1. And what of them once you've captured them in a witch hunt?

      N

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  12. I'd actually like to try it out.

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  13. any mind - altering substance taken into the body will affect the mind -- a drunken man's words are a sober man's thoughts. same is true for medicine, specially if it affects the cerebral cortex, which is what makes a person more likely to act and speak in ways he or she may not otherwise. the filter that we normally have and the healthy shame we keep to ourselves is gone.
    Um maybe id try it. Not. I hate loosing control like that. Its like being pumped up with high doses of pain meds going through labor when having a baby, you just say the oddest things to your partner. The filter is gone.

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    1. forget drugs. I have done drugged childbirth (ahhhhh) and natural childbirth. I think my ex husband would agree I said far worse things to him when I was all natural. because it fucking hurt.

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    2. Mach, for some reason I always assumed you were a dude!

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    3. They are all evil. What they show here? What they want us to see.

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    4. Really, what kinds of things do you say?

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    5. Haha yup agreed Mach. Childbirth is freekin painful. Give me all the drugs possible in labour....All of them. I've done it six times. By the last baby I finally ask for an epidural. Should have done that with the boys. My daughter hurt like hell.

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    6. You monsters should be sterilized.

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  14. https://www.facebook.com/barbie.corpse this chick is a sociopath

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  15. A couple of thoughts:
    I had the pleasure of looking after many people who were administered Midazolam prior to a surgical procedure. Most remained pretty much normal, but some did have "lowered inhibitions".
    People who I think were secretly miserable would tell me about their asshole spouses, lost loves and things they wish were different. Amazing what you can get out of them if you get them talking.

    Had only 1 guy get handsy, but numerous make "naughty nurse" type references. Then again, boys being boys, they make those jokes without the drugs too.
    Point is, don't get all excited. I think your friends are exaggerating to be more interesting.

    Also, are you serious? You think it would be a good idea to tape the patients and blackmail them? What are you, 12?
    These people would clearly be under the influence, so with most, the best you could hope for would be a funny YouTube clip (that could still cost the doctor everything).

    In the very unlikely event that they did/said something blackmail worthy- that tape comes out and the doctor would lose their license and most likely be dragged through the mud and the courts for breaking their Duty of Care (and being a retarded asshole).
    The patient would be seen as a victim. Even if they told the details of some crimes, it would not be admissible.
    So the doctor would be finished and the patient would be rich.
    Seriously, M.E.?

    You really need to remove that "public shaming" stick from your ass :)

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    1. why is there not a "like" button on SW?

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    2. Bite Me, it is comments like yours that reinforce my decision to never be given Versed again. So you get "pleasure" out of talking to patients who have been given that drug, and "it's amazing what you can get out of them?" Well for me it was the worst experience of my life, and I had insomnia ,anxiety, rage, and severe depression for months afterward. Nice to know that the medical staff considered my reaction to be entertaining.

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  16. Who exactly is she being sarcastic against?

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  17. Remember that much of what comes from M.E. comes halfway out of her ass alot of the time. This is all for her reflection, amusement, need for manipulation, want for money, power, fame, and maybe this is just a tiny bit something like group therapy for her.

    My initial impulse instinct is not to play games and ruin people. Since I am male and there by more agressive, my initial impulse is to beat someone to a pulp. In the case of greater conflict, my biggest thought is to bury them in the ground after murdering them. I don't think any of this would get me anywere. M.E. aren't you a high functioning sociopath? Thought you knew this already?

    Besides, you being fired all the time is pretty much you ruining yourself in the process of acting on your impulses.

    "I, of course, thought that an enterprising unethical doctor should start taking video of these patients and using the tapes for blackmail." - would get you fired and you would get to be on the headlines of the local news.

    "These people deserve to be outted. If they are innocent, harmless, or if there is nothing really wrong with what they're doing then I'm sure they'll be fine." - I think you forget that people have empathy for eachother unless they perceive eachother as threats or enemies. In this case you are the threat and your patients are the victims. Thus the patients would receive the empathy and you would be outed.

    I can clearly see that this empathy thing isn't something M.E. understands.

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    1. She drives the focus of the discussion to intelectual things, but in fact, socios are amoral people. Dot. How many of them did not hurt animals, children, women and old ones just for fun? 1 or 2 %? And what about her? An angel? Never killed? They, all of them, if they have the desire and they are sure that they won't be captured, they can kill and go back to life with the same hard face.

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    2. ME let her pro-social mask slip here, that's all.

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    3. As far as I know, ME had read an article somewhere that emphatogens (MDMA, MDA etc.) have "completely cured a total sociopath after one single dose". With the term "cured" they probably mean "became able to feel empathy". ME is quite sceptical about this, but these substances may have potential in "treating sociopathy" (IF one regards the condition as something problematic) -- does anyone here have any experiences? ME, or at least Someone Who Isn't "ME", has experimented with empathogens, and the main difference seems to be this: While on them, this person in question actively wants to interact with people and the interactions kind of "flow" naturally, without need to "think what to say" -- a good way to describe it would be that the interaction going on feels like "end-in-itself", whereas normally the interaction feels more like "means" for something (or that the interaction/conversation would have some specific "goal", I'm not really talking about "means" in terms of manipulation here). Though I've heard some of his friends say that he is actually not that different as for the "content" of the conversations. Someone also compared the "happiness" felt under empathogens to "just looking at a photo of a field of flowers", "real happiness" being more like actually rolling on that field. But everything is just brain chemistry, and this mere thought seems to depress ME a lot. Of course one could as whether empathy is even something worth trying to "achieve", but the words of SWIME after his first successful experiment were "For the first time in my live, I really felt alive" or something to that effect. Maybe it all comes down to the feeling (or realizing/internalizing) that things are "already fine" and there is no need to try to change them in any way -- but whether this really is a _fact_ to be realized or just a temporary illusion caused by excessive amounts of neurotransmitters is another question... Any thoughts on this?
      (BTW ME is probably wondering if there is something specific people here would like him to write about.)

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    4. AnonymousMay 6, 2014 at 3:50 AM:
      I think hurting animals is on the Antisocial Personality Disorder check list. I don't count insects, larva and fish. General birds should not be counted. The animal being tortured and killed should be a animal most people are able to personalize with. Like a pet. Just mentioning this for the sake of the readers here. Boys killing things is a normal thing. Boys are boys.

      AnonymousMay 6, 2014 at 5:14 AM:
      I think the famous author of this book is a female. At least Dr. Phil tends to think so. I think she likes to play with your mind. In fact she would want to own it and make it her utility. The excercise of doing that is confusing you and leading you with misinformation.

      Is empathy something one would strive for? In keeping and maintaining human relationships both for pleasure and business, it is essential. I have already stated that I feel empathy here on this blog, but I know I don't always do it. In the cases where I do not feel empathy I am only able to treat the person I see as an object. When that happens, one should carefully calculate ones business before one treads wrongly and gets outed.

      Your life starts and ends with your brain. At least here in the physical realm, can't speak for any other. Sometimes I see M.E. as a person who has a part of her brain constantly drunk. Littlebit like me when I am drunk. Only I go back to normal when I sober up. Or at least I think so.

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    5. Lack of impulse control combined with a lack of caring, guilt, and remorse means that certain things, like jobs, have less emotional weight or fear attached to them. Also note there is a significant difference between being fired many times, and having quit/changed jobs many times.

      Anecdotally, I have left and changed jobs half a dozen times, and changed vocations three different times. Almost all of these occasions were primarily due to eventual boredom (lack of stimulation). The novelty wears off. That being said, in almost all of these jobs I performed very well, and received significantly positive and supporting references when eventually leaving. Put simply, I had superior work ethic and performance while working, and was well liked, until I decided to drop it and leave. Leaving the job and its people is easy and quick, where the only effort needed is to ensure an advantageous (and/or mitigated) transition. There was only one case this did not happen, but I suspect I was, simply put, out-sociopathed by a hierarchically-superior adversary.

      So you can see, it is not quite what you might think of it. It is paradoxical sometimes being hyper-rational yet have significant lack of inhibition and impulse control. This probably explains why there is misunderstanding and confusion regarding the sociopath's state of mind.

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  18. When I think of Truth Serum I think of Datura Inoxia. Also known as Jimson weed.
    There's a species of it in brazil that criminals use (and I'm sure the CIA use it too).. actually they call it scopolamine (in small doses its good for nausea) but like concentrated datura given to someone, WILL TURN THEM INTO A ZOMBIE. They WILL do what you tell them to. They have no free will at that point. You tell them to go to the bank and withdraw all their money and bring it back to you and they do it. Terrible toxic and fucked but very interesting plant.

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  19. I know a girl who made a datura tea and gave it to my friend's current boyfriend (many years ago in High school)... he freaked out and thought he was seeing his dead grandma in class. he ended up being removed from class and went to the hospital.. the nurses tried to give him sedatives or something and he was hallucinating so he thought the nurses were the ones who gave him the datura and he was like "No more drugs Tina" I used the name Tina but that's not her real name. Anyways, because he said that, they were able to figure out WHO gave it to him.. it really is a truth serum... Another time "Tina" fed it to another girl who just started masturbating in front of everyone.. and then another time she gave it to this other guy (he didnt know what he was taking) and like he freaked out in the shower for 12 hours. Anyways its not good. Its toxic but you can use it for mind control for sure. Datura Inoxia.

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    ReplyDelete
  21. Why should ME have to be sarcastic to say she contemplates blackmail? Isn't the whole point in her anonymity here to allow her to say things she would usually have to hold back from saying (or things that are so 'out there' that people nervously assume she's joking)? She's likely just indulging some true thoughts guys.

    Anyway, this whole blog is probably very amusing to her. She just writes a few comments about something controversial and then sits back to watch everyone bickering endlessly about their friendly neighbourhood sociopath's intentions. That's power, right there.

    I admire you ME. I read your novel. ;)

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  22. Thanks Chris! I'm so glad you enjoyed the post. It was your idea to share the topic on-medical staffing ! It will be interesting to see if Indiana passes a law about having a meteorologist on staff at outdoor venues. I hope someone tries to bring the idea to local politicians! Then other states could follow suit.

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  23. "What better way to ruin someone's life than to shame them in the court of public opinion, right? And they deserve it too, I bet."

    so it's completely irrational when an empathetic person thinks that something was not done justice and finds it to be bullshit. but it's completely rational when a sociopath deems a person worthy of ruin and proceeds to do just that, because they probably deserved it anyway.

    k.

    you're completely full of shit and in serious denial about your supposedly superior rationale. it's laughable. that is why your kind are deemed dangerous... you feel as if you are operating from a higher cognitive plane, or that your emotions are somehow "rational emotions" instead of "normal emotions", which in your minds justifies everything that you do. it's bullshit, it's irrational, it's dangerous, and worst of all, nothing will ever stop it.

    to say nothing of the bias of intention (i know my intentions so what i did wasn't wrong; but clearly THAT person's intentions while doing the same thing were misplaced in some way so what they did was definitely wrong).

    ReplyDelete

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