Monday, May 6, 2013

The virtues (?) of victimhood

For a lot of spiritual/religious people there is the interesting issue of theodicy, the problem of evil: “how we justify the existence of suffering with belief in a God who created us, who loves us, and who providentially manages the world.” I've noticed that people (here in the comments and in my real life) seem to want to give meaning to bad things, typically in one of a few ways: (1) that God is testing them (and so presumably as long as they hang in there, the bad thing gave them a chance to prove themselves and is at worst neutral), (2) that they suffer to make them stronger (so the bad thing is really a blessing in disguise), or (3) they suffer as a testament to the evil of other men (and those men are going to be condemned or punished, so a net negative). This last reason is the most troubling to me. A lot of people come to the comment section with judgment on their tongue and calls for blood for the sociopaths that have wrecked their lives and so deserve untold horrors.. For some of these people, this one experience has come to define their existence.

When religious people think of someone who really had it rough, they frequently will think of Job. Job not only lost everything, all of his wealth, family, friends, he suffered immense physical pain. Job basically had it about as bad as you can get it. But there was no one for Job to hate except God, which he declined to do. As his reward, God gives him double what he had before. Dostoevsky writes in the Brothers Karamazov:

God raises Job again, gives him wealth again. Many years pass by, and he has other children and loves them. But how could he love those new ones when those first children are no more, when he has lost them? Remembering them, how could he be fully happy with those new ones, however dear the new ones might be? But he could, he could. It's the great mystery of human life that old grief passes gradually into quiet, tender joy.

But I have a feeling that for a lot of the victims that come here, having their lives restored wouldn't be nearly enough for them to relinquish their claims to victimhood. In their mind, giving up their hurt would also mean giving up the meaning and sense of purpose they've assigned to that hurt. Giving up their pain would mean giving up their hopes for justice -- that the wrongdoers will eventually suffer commensurate to their misdeeds. These people would rather live a life of eternal victimhood than they would a world in which things eventually get better.

The Brothers Karamazov is one of my favorite books. One of the characters Ivan struggles with this desire for justice:

I must have justice, or I will destroy myself. And not justice in some remote infinite time and space, but here on earth, and that I could see myself. I have believed in it. I want to see it, and if I am dead by then, let me rise again, for if it all happens without me, it will be too unfair. I want to see with my own eyes the hind lie down with the lion and the victim rise up and embrace his murderer. I want to be there when everyone suddenly understands what it has all been for. All the religions of the world are built on this longing, and I am a believer.

Apart from the established health benefits of forgiving and letting go of past hurts, Ivan's position is simply inconsistent with reality. There is no perfect justice. To keep clamoring for it suggests a significant break with reality. This is particularly true of justice against people like me, who don't really believe in “right.” Everything just is. If bad things happen to me, I wouldn't recognize them as any sort of retribution for past wrongs. I do not believe life is "fair" that way. I wouldn't actually feel like I was being punished, so what's the point? 

198 comments:

  1. First! Interesting article, M.E.

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    1. You are wrong ME.
      It is grief about the "death" of a beloved person, it is grief about the fact that connection never had been possible, it is partly addiction, it is shock about not having recognized the danger. It needs time to realize that sociopathy is an illness that alterates human beeings in this way.

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  2. I agree 100%. Cant stand a victim. Never thought I'd agree with a sociopath! You're also a great writer..I loved your piece in Psychology Today. Great doctors office read.

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  3. Something bad, should never define our existence. It can define the moment we learned something, which is always useful, but after all is learned, to linger on it just shows conformism and laziness. In some cases though, the bad experience, helps as realizing of something we didn’t know about ourselves which was positive, and we work afterwards on enhancing that positive discovery.

    If a person suffers the bad conduct of a sociopath and becomes an activist of justice, it would not be accurate to say that the evil defined their lives, what defined their lives was realizing of how important justice was for them. This happens continuously all through our live, accidental events, whether negative, positive or neutral; give us the possibility of realizing who we are.

    About the Job episode, well, old fiction books are fine when talking about literature; they can be pretty but don’t bring much to the subject, especially the religion books, since most of their concepts are anachronistic.

    “Giving up their pain would mean giving up their hopes for justice” I could not disagree more. Pain is a lurking variable that blinds reason, and to blind reason is the worse that can be done to deliver justice. I would agree though with the sentence “Giving up their pain would mean giving up their hopes for revenge” because revenge has many times very little to do with justice.

    I am pretty convinced that forgiving is one of the most stupid things that somebody can do. Forgiving is the betrayal of justice and I can’t image any benefits from that. Forgiveness is just a bad shortcut to release the pain that will create more damage than healing in the long term. If there is proper way to overcome any bad and unfair experience in life (either created by a human or by an impersonal event) that is emotional detachment in order dealing with the consequences in the more reasonable way, always preserving our values.

    I found funny that M.E. states that justice has no sense since she doesn’t believe in “right” nor in “retribution for past wrongs”. I was not aware that Justice was taking into account the believes of the guilty about his opinions of right or wrong ;) Justice is all about giving back what people generate. Justice is not about punishment, retribution, hell or heaven, Justice it is a matter equalisation between humans; who are equal. If I take your eye too, M.E., and you don’t feel punished it is irrelevant, you will also have an eye less.

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  4. I name myself a victim, and divorce myself from power. All choices before me switch from action to reaction. To respond to pain by inflicting more of it is to give up sanity and reason for blindness and rage.

    Pain is a simple thing, a signal. My hand is on the stove, it hurts! I pull back my hand, cool it to bring relief, and in the future I will eye the stove warily. Accept your pain, soothe it, learn from it, but do not lash out! No great religious conviction is needed to learn this lesson.

    You come here looking for targets and weapons, to throw spears at spears that clack ineffectually to the ground and give your aggressor, your source of pain, more to throw at you. Do you want strength, do you want to win? Learn from the mistakes that have brought you pain. For if you do not, the sociopath surely will.

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    1. It is not about pain at all. Justice is searched not because there is a pain, but because there is an evil action and a human who perpetrate it. Not all malevolent actions conclude in the direct emotional pain of another human being, but they are still persecuted, have a look at the law.

      And, please, take your hands from the stove, it burns! That’s not unfair, that’s stupid to do.

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    2. Yes, nobody ever burns themselves on a stove. Why, I've never seen an allusion to that situation, especially in the sense of talking about pain and learning! Your wit is my painful lesson today. Thank you for enlightening me, I'll do my best to avoid such mistakes in the future :)

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    3. The evil action of the sociopath brought me pain, not my mistakes. He doesn’t have spears to through at me anymore, because I know he is a sociopath and I detached emotionally from him. The pain left. So it's not about my pain, it is about the pain he will cause in others it is about stopping the ongoing devastation. That’s why is stupid to forgive a sociopath, forgiving could just make sense once evilness is over.

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    4. If you want to stop him you'll have to kill him or cause him to be incarcerated. Are you willing to go that far?

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    5. Exposure can do wonders.

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    6. The only thing I wanted to say about the pain is that there are many sources of pain, evil actions of a human is just one of them. When parents say bye to a son who gets his own home, they might feel pain too.

      A sociopath can enjoy his hollowness or hate it, or feel he is the smartest and the greatest in the world. He can think that it is unfair that people can show off being pretty and not by being smart. He can think that being smart is something he accomplished, as much as an idiot can take pictures of her pretty green eyes and think it was her achievement. All that, is fine. The issue here, are the actions he chooses to execute.

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    7. Incarceration is just an example of what exposure can imply to someone who commits illegal felonies.

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    8. Do you want help? I'd like to see how this exposure thing turns out.

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    9. :D Help from a sociopath? ;) It will take time. But I don't think that is misterious the way it can turn out. His public image will be down. He might have to run and begin again. If he suspects about me then I will lose him, otherwise he will still be under my lens.

      So? was evil anon "green eyes"? or do you think it is possible she is that one? You are the smart one here ;)

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    10. Just send me some of his contact info, I can do the rest :D I just registered as Quasimoto on the forums last night, you can email me through there.

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    11. How come I didn't think before about hiring a sociopath to do the dirty work? :-D This is probably the worse thing of sociopaths, they will never know the fun and pleasure of a real alliance.

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    12. I am a devious bastard, and I will help you take him down if you like. You're a smart girl, Jessi, green eyes was Evil Anon. I think we could have some fun together ;)

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    13. Really? How do you know? If that's true I will be considering telling the police to get rid of their coonhounds and getting chihuahuas.

      I would love your help, but you are a devious bastard ;) So I will have to resign myself in learning how you think to understand how he thinks. Poor me.

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    14. Jessi, you have no idea. I didn't want to show my hand this early, but I find your problem very tempting. I'm actually just a very smart empath, I feel the same way you do. I came here to fuck with these robotic retards. Who actually thinks lack of emotion makes you stronger? They're weak and pathetic. I really will help you, I've always wanted to take one down! I probably won't be able to post here once they see this, so please contact me soon!

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    15. :D If there is something the world is not running out of is sociopaths... You'll get yours, don't worry ;)

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    16. I already have green eyes' name and face. Pretty face and name, though she's got nothing of mine ;) you're really tossing away an opportunity here.

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    17. http://i44.tinypic.com/b51koy_th.jpg

      I have green eyes too!



      btw "green-eyed lady" should be evil anon's theme.

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    18. So, the way you try to convince me to be my ally is to say that you already screwed someone without giving anything in exchange? ;)

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    19. Chet, that's Evil Anon?

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    20. No that's me because I'm pretty. Just thought you should know that, Jessi.

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    21. oh, she looked womanly :o

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    22. I won't insist, Jessi. I like you, and I will help you if you want or need it. You're smart enough to succeed alone.

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    23. green eyes or me? both have vaginas as far as I know...my body shape is more what I wish were less feminine rather than my face. It's pretty straight anyway, but Ideally I would be tall and have almost no curves. Enough to cross dress if I wanted to. But alas, I am 4'11...

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    24. Thanks, for the "smart enough" ;) I think this kind of things are either done alone or with allies that have proven being loyal during many years.

      This was the first time you remind me of my spath. That thing of saying "I screwed someone therefore trust me" reminded me of his absurd manipulative ways. How come you said this? I really wondered how he could try to persuade me to do something and in the same speech give me reasons no to do it. If you wanna help me, help me understand this :)

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    25. The one in the picture.

      I always thought you looked pretty, Chet.

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    26. I know you don't want to be called Chet. Would you mind if I called you Beautiful, or Beauty for short. I'm quite liking Quasi for myself.

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    27. You can call me whatever you want. My eventual legal name will likely be Dolores for reasons. My FB name is Chester lol after the one on the Sifl and Olly show. Chet is short for that.

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    28. It's a demonstration of power, how can you jot value it? Perhaps we can learn from each other. Any mote questions? My curiosity is piqued.

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    29. I am not done with this one. Is it a demonstration of power to show you can screw somebody when you want trust?? "I am a hungry lion, come here little rabbit I will protect you?" Is a demonstration of stupidity but you are supposed not to be stupid. Is it because your narcissism blinds you temporarily?

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    30. Jessi, how much DO you know about psychology? Not asking in a condescending way promise

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    31. Myself pretty few, just what I learn here and there, but I have good friends who do that for a living.

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    32. You basically want to ruin someone's life because they made you upset, and that makes them an evil nuisance. Sociopaths are all evil, so is fighting one not a demonstration of both power and virtue? She toyed with me, am I not entitled to vengeance? How are we so different, Jessi?

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    33. I don't want to ruin someone's life. I want the world to know how they really are, if that ruins their life is not because of me, but because of whom they are... To create justice has very little to do with entitlement to vengeance. Do you see our difference?

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    34. You don’t care about justice. You might learn by heart the things that are supposed to be “right” but when you have to improvise, when you find yourself in a situation you are not familiar with, like a conflict, you get lost. Then you might do some “right thing” that doesn’t apply to cover yourself or some “wrong thing” you perceive as useful. And both things look equally bizarre. That’s how I spotted my spath.

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    35. I've a feeling it's going to turn into a he said/she thing and there's a good chance HE will win and make you out to be a basket case. It may help you if they were female also. But nothing backfires more than a woman demanding justice. Finger will get pointed right back at you. It sucks to have a pussy, I know, but when you have one you tend to get viewed as one.

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    36. What means for you "He will win"? I am not demanding justice :) I want to create it ;) It is just about information. No fingers. Just facts. And facts only point in the direction of the one who made them.

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    37. Anyway, does anyone have a private email and at least some knowledge in psychiatry in general?

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    38. That's like saying I don't want him to die, I just want him to fall with a rope around his neck. What happens after that isn't my business.

      You just want the truth out there, consequences be damned? You're rationalizing doing another person great harm by trying to make yourself blameless and guiltless. When you no longer WANT to do what you're planning, only then will your conscience be clear. When your justice is in perfect alignment with your desire, how can you separate the two?

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    39. Dolores, I have access to nearly every research article available. If you have any questions and want to know what experts in the field think, I can find out and interpret for you. You're worth the effort ;)

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    40. I am not telling him what to do with the rope. He can use it to play with it as jump rope and not to whip others. If he uses it to whip others is my business, everybodies business.

      I not doing the harm. He is the hand who whips. And somebody receives the whips, this is the person I want to protect, not the whip-man. My conscience is clear from the beginning. My desire is justice. Justice is good.

      Let's go back to a more clear example, maybe:
      The guy with the ax who wants to kill the guy in the park's bench. I take away his ax, the guy is unhappy, Am I harming the guy with the ax because he is unhappy and he can't kill someone anymore? Bad me. Is anything wrong with my desire to get his ax? Is there anything bad in a desire that is good?

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    41. no axe smells freakin good can't blame you there just inhale hard like it's a good blunt

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    42. Anon Ymous, what is your personal email?

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    43. If we're using such an extreme example, you're not just depriving him of the axe, you're cutting his head off with it.

      You are abdicating responsibility for the consequences of your actions. It's people like you who led to the success of the holocaust. "Sure, I gave the Jew girl to the soldiers, it's the law. I had nothing to do with her death!"

      I'm going to call you Hitler from now on.

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    44. Kwazimodododo at gmail dot com. Made just for SW :)

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    45. Because the example was extrem I took his axe away... Otherwise there is no intervention, just information of his actions. He chooses his actions. He is responsible of them. I choose to give information. I am responsible of the delivery but not of the content. He creates the content. The receivers of the information decide what to do with it, they will be responsible of their own decisions.

      Law? Death? Hitler? Here you are, proving right once more the Godwin's law :)

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    46. Buh! if it was just made for SW doesn't intereste me. :D

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    47. About the lion-rabbit thing, you didn't answer: Is it because your narcissism blinds you temporarily?

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    48. I still think you should just fuck the guy.

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    49. Chet, fucking the guy doesn't interest me at all.

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    50. HOt enough but HOllow enough.

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    51. Like a croissant fresh out of the oven.

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    52. Like a metallic croissant.

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    53. Quasi, I wholeheartedly agree with your 5:01 comment.
      But you really are a devious fucker :) I gave you far too little credit.


      Yes, Jessi. I was Evil Anon and Literary Anon (L.A.) and a whole host of just plain ol' "anonymous" too.

      But you still are an arrogant Chihuahua :)
      You really are intent on fucking up that man's life aren't you?
      Do you want the truth, Jessi?
      I think you are the one blinded by your narcissism. That you couldn't manipulate to save your life.

      You think you are so clever and can outplay this man easily enough without it coming back to bite you in the ass. You are going to end up just like my idiot ex. He thought he was extremely clever and didn't need help too.

      Chances are that your sociopath is going to charm and manipulate his way out of that situation.

      I would generally say that you should just walk the fuck away. Learn your lesson and move on.
      But since you are too pig headed for your own good (and you're starting to grow on me) I really would recommend you get some help from someone who knows how to play these games and gives enough of a fuck to want to help you. And dear god no, I do not mean me.

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    54. YOU were Literary Anon? Why were you so nice to me when you can't stand me?

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    55. Literary Anon felt like a sexy guy. That one is hard for me to believe, Green Eyes. I though Anon Ymous said he was L.A. I remember that. I could pick up L.A's total primal animal sex appeal and I don't do that with woman.

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    56. Oh for the love of... yes, Monica. Why do you think I kept giving you all those hints? Even more or less repeated a few things I was saying as L.A. on the forum as GE. I wanted you to get it.

      Who ever said I can't stand you?
      I can't stand a lot of your behaviour, but I have nothing against you.

      I tried to help you under my own name, but you were too blinded by your own dislike of me. Refused to listen and would do nothing but attack me.
      Yes, I'm a gaslighting, lying cunt, but I tried.

      When I started posting as anonymous, you all of a sudden started taking the comments seriously. So I decided to run with it. Threw in enough sugar to make me gag, but I knew you would at least listen then.

      Then I got annoyed that it was taking forever. And that you were making a fool of yourself. It was seriously cringe worthy what you were doing.
      Trust me when I say that I did you a favour by taking Quasi's interest away from you. Don't make the mistake of underestimating him.

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    57. I even told you several times, right before you started calling me L.A., that I was a woman.
      Quasi was never L.A.

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    58. Wow Wow Wow
      This kid got it 100% wrong. Why were you so sweet to me? I greatly appreciated it.

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    59. I will tell you all something. Last night, I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. The pain hurt so bad.I prayed to God I would not die because my son needs me. It was the pain of ALL my betrayals honing down to that one moment.

      Quasi, you can have him :p

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    60. I just told you. I threw in enough sugar to get through to you. If I had said any of those things as GE, can you honestly tell me you would have listened? I think not.
      Believe it or not, I actually am happy about the progress you made.

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    61. Thank you GE
      That is very kind of you!

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    62. Well, with so many users and being new here it was not bad for a Chihuahua…

      The truth is based on facts. I will just give facts. And facts are not necessarily bad, if they are bad is because of the owner of the facts.

      Which kind of life can be saved through manipulation?

      I am trying to protect others ass with this. I already saw how he is. What happened with your ex?

      Manipulation doesn’t work against facts. That’s the beauty of evidence.

      Which lesson? That there are evil people out there? That’s nothing new. I am not interested in games. To expose a sociopath you need proves. Point. No games. No florid language. Pure undeniable evidence. But that's just a collectors job.




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    63. That's how bad boys are, Monica.
      He may or may not be a sociopath, but he is a bad boy, trust me.
      Don't just discount what he has to say though.
      You would be making the same mistake as you made with me.

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    64. Yes, Jessi. You did well. Give the lady a cigar.

      But manipulation does work beautifully against facts because those facts can be twisted and turned against you. They then become completely different facts :)
      You just need to be convincing enough.

      I will not tell the full story of what happened on here. But you should be able to figure it out well enough from everything I told you.

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    65. Yes, he had profound wisdom, today. I needed to hear it and I appreciated it, even though the whole thing hurt like heck. Next time, I will flirt with more vanilla types :D

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    66. Thanks, I don't smoke.

      You might have a wrong concept of what evidence means. If it's shapable, it's not evidence. It will be the first time I will expose a sociopath but not the first time I have exposed some evil action of someone. I know what undeniable evidence is and what is a circumstancial proof.

      Then maybe another time.











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    67. Why would somebody like to flirt with someone who is hollow?

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    68. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    69. ah, ok, I just flirt when I really like someone. I never saw the point of flirting just for the sake of it.

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    70. You're not getting it, are you my little Chihuahua?
      You cannot possibly know what can be twisted and how unless you have the right frame of mind for it. And you don't.

      My ex had what most people would consider undeniable evidence against me. I managed to make him look like a lying, sadistic asshole stalker nonetheless. And sure, it helped immensely that I seduced his best friend and made him help me.

      I would seriously recommend that you take Quasi up on his offer. I can see this getting very bad for you indeed if you don't. But, it's your choice. If anything I will find it highly amusing to see you come crawling back here broken and spewing venom about sociopaths being soulless demon spawn. Or if your sociopath makes his way here to tell us how he fucked you up.

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    71. I think it is you who is not getting it. I am close to get evidence from some clear fraud from his side. There is no way out. ("It was not me, it was my twin brother!")

      My spath also thinks I am a little chihuahua. arf, arf. Don't worry about me. All will unfold in a very accidental way.

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    72. Actually I think the best way to exposure somebody is to make someone else find the gaffe. Even when you have circumstantial proofs and you are not sure about their effectivity. That person will act in a natural way, you will not be associated and have more trials.

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    73. For that, my dear Hitler, you need an interested party that would enjoy doing your dirty work ;)

      And oh, I would enjoy it.

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    74. Ah, of course, and you would act in such a natural way, hollow you. Delusional sociopaths... ;-)

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    75. Jessi, Jessi, Jessi...

      You talking about someone being delusional is simply delightful.

      I am seriously looking forward to seeing you broken by this man. I think it might give you a little humility. Or not.
      I'm sure it will be funny either way :)

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    76. I will be just an invisible hand. As I said, is not the first time. And is not as funny as you may think. Because it will not be over.

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    77. Are you saying you've done this to other people? More men who jilted you? How did that work out?

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    78. Why men? It worked well. It is exposure, pure exposure. It's not as wavy as apparently you think.

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    79. I just assumed you would have gone after other men that dumped you, that's all. You kinda seem the type.

      What ended up happening with those people post exposure though?

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    80. Jessi,
      how stupid are you on a scale of 1-10?

      Just curious. Do you think you re the only one who reads what M.E. post?

      I love it when you use her quotes and pretend like they are yours.

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    81. It is not a romantic endeavor, green eyes. There is not a bad plus for being a man rather than a woman.

      What ends up happening when people know somebody has done something illicit? It depends of what it was. But it definitely helped to build the right public image of the person. The rest was not up to me.

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    82. Anon, apparently I'm not too stupid, but who believes in those tests. How pretty are you on a scale of 1-10?

      Are you saying I share opinions with a wannabe sociopath? Prove it. (Maybe M.E. is not that bad after all...)

      And don't get confused by all those spammer robots, here we are alone you and me.

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    83. Wow, it's pathetic to see so many wannabe sociopaths trying desperately and transparently to get a power trip by "manipulating" Jessi into accepting their "help." I hope that you are all able to become a bit more centered in reality and understand how deranged and transparent your attempts appear to a healthy, confident person. You are not specially gifted at manipulating people, but you would like to think you are. You are an absolute carnival of damage.

      But kudos to you, Jessi. Although I don't think this is a particularly healthy environment for you to be hanging out on; these people are just trying to gaslight your personal growth and call all justice vanity because they don't have the emotional maturity to understand it, whether because they are unable to or because they have chosen to arrest their own development with fatuous narcissistic gratifications and delusions. Perhaps you'll go on, Jessi, to carry the torch to draw awareness to people like this, and to abuse in general. We've made great strides on that, historically, because people like you take action.

      To your detractors, it is easy to mistreat and abuse people. You're not specially gifted manipulators. You're not gifted puppet masters. You're out of control egos.

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    84. You're right about the out of control egos, but you really shouldn't talk about games when you have no idea who's playing or why.
      That's exactly how people like you can get caught up. You see the obvious, think you are so clever to have figured it all out. Makes you blind to the real fun happening right in front of you.

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  5. Was all that done with good motives or is that a totally stupid question?

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  6. I felt like a friggin idiot, last night but I am glad I am able to be hurt. It would be worse if I was so hard that I couldn't.

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  8. Excellent points, M.E. I would like to add that we all go thru the agonies and trials that biblical characters experienced and no one is immune. Not even sociopaths.

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    1. But the attitude makes the difference.

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    2. Yeap. We don't choose what happens to us but we choose how to react from it.

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    3. Sometimes we look the other way and somewhat choose the results of the choices we make. Ah, but we would never admit it, now would we?

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  9. It really is a waste to be a victim with that being too subjective for anyone else guaranteed to see you the same way. Can't really afford to make excuses for yourself if no one else will honor them. Often just makes them want to cut you even less slack. That being said during a paranoid rage I will believe people are "against me" on purpose, but no whining comes of it because no one has the time for that. I like to be autonomous with my problems, unless I am seeking advice, and I tend to avoid people that don't do the same.

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  11. Yes, exposure is the best medicine. The proliferation of websites such as http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/ are all helping to raise awareness of evil psychopaths disguised as our allies.

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    Replies
    1. That's the way to go :)))

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    2. What a brilliant idea!
      Why don't all the bitter jilted people declare their exes, or anyone else they don't like for that matter, to be sociopaths and set out to expose them as such?
      What could possibly be the downside of that, Jessi?

      Delete
    3. ALEC BALDWIN IS A SOCIOPATH. He obnoxiously has to show up in EVERY FUCKING MOVIE. He pisses me off. It's even worse that he has an odd attractiveness. Thus, he must be a sociopath. Help me expose him for what he truly is!

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    4. Haha! That's the spirit, Chet!
      Hang on, you find him attractive?

      Also, Colin Farrell. He's just so terrible in every way. He must be a sociopath too then.

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    5. In one of those uncanny I don't know why ways. I'm not his fangirl I just think he has an infectious face.

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    6. "Expose them as such" It is about exposing people for what they are. It is not about running in the street calling names... Evidence, not words.

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    7. I hate Julia Roberts. Hate her. She must be an empath.

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    8. She looks like a nice person. It's true.

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    9. Klaus Kinski was a sociopath. More your type.

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    10. Chet, just imagine for a moment the love child of Klaus Kinski and Anne Hathaway :)

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  12. i don't feel any moral call for justive against a sociopath. if s/he did anything illegal to me i would announce it to the police so s/he shall bear the consequences of his actions and i get compensation if needed. for the lying, humilating etc. i don't even feel angry anymore, only fascinated even amused somehow about his shamelessness. demanding moral justice would be like begging apologies or seeking revenge from the dog whose shit i stepped on. in the future i'll watch out if somebody shits on the road i take.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Hitler doesn't realize she'd be much happier with that perspective.

      Delete
    2. I have another question: do sociopaths forgive when you hurt them?

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    3. They are not dog shit, I dislike sociopathas but I found that pretty offensive. Treat them like humans!

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    4. quite a poet you are. in no way i said sociopaths were dogshit. running into a sociopath is just as arbitrary as dogshit and i have to watch out for it.

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    5. It would be nice to tell the next: Hey! mind your step!

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    6. Anon Ymous
      Do you have to push away anyone who gets close to you?

      Delete
    7. yes, if i had chance, i would warn others to mind their step. but this doesn't make it a moral plight to get after the sociopath once i got rid of him. i am not responsible to make the world a better place for everyone, it's hard enough to make it a better place for me.

      Delete
    8. You are not responsible, but it would be nice :) Yours would also be a better place if someone would have told you: mind your step.

      Delete
    9. We have sooo many questions for Anon Ymous. He is really the star here.

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    10. and those who claim to make the world a better place for everyone use it mostly as a disguise for their own personal aims. i know, i did and still do sometimes;)

      Delete
    11. somebody warned me, he himself showed me his blank ass shitting in my way, but i had only eyes and ears for the icecream he promised to buy...

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    12. I agree. To make the world a better place it is always an anonymous task.

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    14. Man, Anon Ymous. You are someone who should really let me pick his brain after all then fun I gave you~
      How about a few more questions? :D

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    15. For the record Monica, I think honestly you're gorgeous so it's just a matter of different tastes

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    16. Wow, you are one tough cookie! Ask away, iron-woman.

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    17. "To take one down, you really have to be one." To take one down you have to be interested in it, usually people just run.

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    18. I am not iron, dear Anon Ymous. I just want to find myself or die trying~

      Well, why did draw me close and push me away like you did? Was it pure fun for you or do you really HAVE to push away anyone who gets close?

      Thank you, Chet dear xx

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    19. Also, are you someone I know? Are you one of the SW family with another name?

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    21. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    23. Ok Actually, I thought you were someone to whom I care a great deal and have forged a bond over time that meant something to me

      All questions are done. Take care and don't let the door hit you where the God Lord split ya ;)

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    24. A great way to "play the seduction game" and win, from my experience is to literally just show them what's in your pants.

      "Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated..."

      should've been someone's theme.

      Delete
    25. If that was the case, then the crazy flashers would be getting laid non stop, Chet.

      Then again, it's pretty easy to get a man interested for a little while if you do that.

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    26. How long you been playing the anon game?

      Delete
    27. In your experience, Chet? If I mail you a picture of my dick, will you come over?

      Delete
    28. I'll tell you if you tell me who you are, Anon 441 :)

      Delete
    29. I'll send you a mail, yes?

      Delete
    30. lol even though I'm supposed to be a gay guy on here I actually find cocks aesthetically unfavorable.

      However there's little I won't consider...for a price.

      Delete
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  14. sinds ME wrote a book is she now sam vaknin2?

    ReplyDelete
  15. My favorite article so far.

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  16. Monica, why would you allow yourself to get close to someone when you know what they're about and they could hurt you?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Because I though Anon Ymous was someone who was a Regular I have known for many years with a different user name.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh I see. I was just asking.

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    2. Yep
      It was that :)

      Delete
    3. Monica, you'll hurt my feelings, talking like that!

      Delete
  18. Too lazy to sign in, Lyra.
    Well, Anon Ymous. I do care for some people on here, a great deal, and they would have the power to hurt me. Luckily, you are not one of them xx

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ain't it all about you?

      Delete
  19. Monica, you care for people on this site? A great deal? I'm just asking, excuse my nosiness.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Monica, I wanted to talk to you about something. But not on here.

      Delete
    2. You know how to get me, GE. It would be my pleasure.

      Delete
    3. Thanks, Monica. I'll send you a message in a bit :)
      It's nothing urgent, just wanted to ask your opinion about a family member.

      Delete
  20. Some days I am just resentful of him (my sociopath)...and want him to suffer. In fact I dream up ways he and his narc wife could suffer. Lately, rather than pretending I am not doing this, I just acknowledge what I am doing and try to realize how ridiculous it is. It is scary for us NTs to accept that the sociopaths will not suffer for what they do. It means they can make us suffer that way again; that any sociopath that we do not recognize as such can make us suffer again because there is NOTHING stopping them. We want to be open again. We want to go back to the way we were but we can't because we are afraid of that pain. If we can stop being afraid of the pain, then maybe we will stop wanting the sociopath to suffer. It all comes down to exposure and control.

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    1. I can relate to that. But it's all just a fantasy and that sucks too. So I gave up I guess. I don't want him to suffer anymore. I just want him to drop dead. Lol I just don't care for him anymore. That's why he got rid of me. I can see him for what he is and that doesn't work for him. The only thing I could give him now is a headache.

      Delete
    2. You can't just learn to avoid someone? Believe me, sociopaths want nothing more than to not have to deal with people they don't like.

      I try to think with NT logic sometimes, to try and get something through, but then I realize that's usually an oxymoron.

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    3. He doesn't try to avoid me, at least when his wife is not around. I am grateful he has gone from still trying to seduce me to just being friendly. I am often just friendly back. Sometimes being friendly is not a problem. Other times I feel like I am letting myself down by being nice to him, but being rude feels even worse and, I suppose, shows him he has power over me. Being friendly shows I couldn't care less, and more often than not, this is the case. Perhaps this is why he is friendly too, but I doubt it. I still wonder why he acts the way he does. Why would a sociopath be friendly unless he wanted something specific?

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    4. Reading this thing I wrote above makes me see that I am torn between avoiding exposure to him (turning my back and being rude), and showing him that I don't care (hence he cannot affect me anymore) by being friendly. I think the latter choice is better. It seems to work in setting the tone for our future interactions: distant and amiable. Nevertheless re: Jessi above, the revenge thing (what you call exposure) doesn't work. Sociopaths work differently than us, they don't care what they do as long as they win) and you will just end up more merged with someone that will inflict pain willy nilly.

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    5. Friendly, at least for me, is the default setting. Sociopaths are pretty good about making people feel the way they want them to. If he wants you to feel like you're on friendly terms, then that's probably all he wants for now. There's no magic formula to determine someone's motive, for sociopaths or anyone else.

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    6. Anon 7:33 He might think he still has some control over you. Use it. And just remember, there is just one way to bring them down: exposure, exposure, exposure.

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    7. Anon 7:47 That's wrong. Sociopaths care dearly about their goals. And the most dearest goal for them is public image, because is the one that allows them to continue with their selfish devastation. Exposure is not about calling him names... Exposure is about opening the eyes about him to his environment. And to expose the truth, the worse is to babble, the only way is the examining judge way. Find evidence. Share it. It does wonders. That is exposure. And don't play the Hero, this is not about getting the credit, that would be stupid and dangerous. Nobody needs to know were the information is coming. They just have to get it.

      Delete
    8. cutting all ties would be a healthy thing to do

      Delete
  21. We can't control how others think. They can't control our thinking either but, we all try. Its too painful and frustrating.

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    Replies
    1. Interesting comment. I agree that nobody can control other people's thinking, but it can certainly be influenced.

      If you want to change a sociopath's way of thinking, employ logic. Don't try to appeal to emotions that aren't there, you can't create them.

      To change an NTs way of thinking, do appeal to their emotions. Logic usually will not work. Ask them how they would feel about certain circumstances, how they might make others feel, and get them to consider alternative methods for achieving their goals that line up with their emotions and conscience.

      Of course, if you're a sociopath, it's easiest to simply lie to and manipulate others into believing you.

      If you want to play a game, try through logic to convince me not to be a lying, cheating, manipulative bastard :) I'll listen to you if you don't get all wishy washy on me.

      Delete
    2. If you were really as powerful and potent in your life as you pretend to be on this site you would feel no need to bother a moment with the pathetic waste of energy involved with lying, cheating and manipulating.
      Those who are perpetual victims need a constant supply of grandiose disconnected losers like you to abuse them. Despite the victimized false innocence they can maintain by playing with you they really do see you clearly as weak minded aka sociopath enough to play into their bullshit cloying games.
      They have sonar that lets them know you will treat them like the daddy/mommy/molester/abuser blah blah and blah that they need to never move it along already, grow up and move into the more challenging arena's of inner and outer life.
      They will engage with you to recreate their experience of themselves so they never have to grow up.
      Monica is a great example. They don't fall for/get seduced/get duped by you, they know on unconscious levels that you will do just what you do and despite protestations to the contrary, they love every second of it.
      People who operate in relationships with real power, potency and strength have no need to engage with so much fear and cowering in the world as you do.
      You don't hide from anyone darling, everyone can see you clearly and not just other socio's. The ones seemingly getting fucked over by you choose it and love it so you are actually their bitches. The ones who stay clear don't do it out of fear, they just pass over your bullshit because it's boring.
      You viewing yourself as strong because you can manipulate what you consider weaker psychological specimens when you are really being used and manipulated to take the role of exactly who they need you to be is the joke.
      The people who aren't interested in your antics have no need to see themselves as victims. Because you have the need to engage as you do you are stuck in the arena with the victims because they are the only ones who want to play with you. You are playing in the lowest evolutionary playing field thinking you are winning.
      All you big bad evil princes and princesses lording over a kingdom of losers. This site is really amusing.

      Delete
    3. Dear Quasi, maybe you are smart, besides your narcissistic blindspots, but please "To change an NTs way of thinking, do appeal to their emotions."... no. The fact that you meet people that are more stupid than you, just because your intelligence is above average, and the fact that they are NTs, just because there are more NTs than sociopaths (fortunately), doesn't mean that all NTs are emotional idiots... Apply logic too...

      Delete
    4. Anon 9:50. That comment was excellent. Place an alias! I'm your fan.

      Delete
  22. I'm not sure what I was dealing with. A narc or sociopath. Maybe he was just an asshole. Idk. If I was logical I was not feminine enough and if I got emotional I was weak. If I talked about sex or flirted with him I was a slut but if I didn't I was gay. Lol couldn't win. I realized he was not normal when I took some time away...I got retrospect. I did love him though.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of course it wasn't like that in the beginning. He was just a wealth of knowledge and so adorable. So harmless. I think his culture and religion played a part too. I guess I'm just a slut with a mind of my own.

      Delete
    2. You got charmed, it happens :)

      Just not by Prince Charming, but his evil twin.

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    3. She got charmed by the role he played not by him. She still likes Prince Charming, but it was a frog.

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    4. lol I go for people I already know are fucked up

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  23. Well, definitely an amphibian...

    Anon 9:50, it is important to keep in mind that we all can be seduced by a sociopath. We all have an Achilles heel, and if you think you don't, well, that is part of your Achilles heel. A lot of subjects of sociopaths waste their time thinking they are the weak one, the idiot, and everyone else is stronger. But this is very unhelpful. Maybe you were extremely attractive to a highly skilled sociopath. This is just as valid. Anybody is vulnerable. Jessi - the problem with the exposure goal is that you are still focusing on the sociopath. You may be able to expose him to your small group or people that you want to protect, but he/she will find a new group. Also, as the Boston Marathon bombers found out, there is always a trail in this day and age that leads back to you.

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    Replies
    1. It is not about vulnerability. We relate to people according to how they treat us. If a person treats as well and he/she gives us his/her phone number, we believe it is his/her phone number. If it wasn't doesn't mean we are vulnerable, doesn't mean we have an Achilles heel, means he/she was a liar. It is not an Oscar level acting to play the nice person.

      I believe it is good to focus on justice. The police that catched the Boston Marathon bombers were also focusing on "them" that's why they got them. Forgiveness would not have been the right way to go...

      I hope you are not comparing the difficulty of being invisible while making someone else cross some information with being invisible placing bombs on a sunny day in front of hundred of people who are taking pictures, in the watch of video cameras and followed by police forces.

      Delete
  24. I exposed him and its just a waste of time....my time. He just found a different playground to hang in. So I learned to just focus on me. I'll let some other person deal with him and his crazy stuff. But it still hurts. It will fade.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is like an M.D. saying, I don't save him because he will eventually die.

      When I expose mine he will definitely have to find another playground... but it took him a lot to get the playground he has now and the same one he is not going to be able to rebuild, and even if the very improbable case that he would, it's going to take him very very long. It's going to be worth it.

      Delete
  25. I believe you Jessi! I hope you pull it off. I just don't see how things matter to them like things matter to us. I guess I feel he's hopeless and there's nothing I could do to change that. I don't feel like its my job to save him. I have to care for myself at this point. But I do understand where you're coming from. He really was just a friend anyway it's not like we were going to get married. Although he did ask me to lol

    ReplyDelete
  26. I would love help exposing a Sociopath/Narcissist. Truly these people need to be exposed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's a whole list of sociopaths ready for you.
      Start with Colin Farrell though, before he gets to make another unbelievably terrible move.
      What are you waiting for, tough guy?

      Delete
    2. Can't help you much buddy, but I'll be making similar endeavours myself. There are a number I have crossed paths with, including some who currently think they have me wound around their little fingers (because they do!). If you identify one of these cold snakes, remember to treat them as such. Be cold and calculating, stick to logic in your thinking about them. But outwardly, be consistent with your own personality and existing relationship with them. If you do manage to cause some amount of harm to one of them, try not to feel guilty - you know they wouldn't.
      Hell maybe I've got a bit of sociopath in me, thinking like that! A certain cold disdain for the suffering of those I deem truly deserve it. I take not an ounce of pleasure nor displeasure from it. As inconsequential as a sharp stone discarded from a inside shoe.

      GE there are an untold number of ways I'd like to lock horns with you, but by far the biggest thing looming in my mind here is: I like Colin Farrell!

      PS: I'm not out to destroy sociopaths (aside from those who've wronged me) but exposure of as many as possible would be a public service - so that all may beware of the snakes and their deceiving ways. AND for the record I do like snakes. I just behave differently around them than when I'm around oh say a kitten.

      Delete
  27. This is why responsibility is so important. Blame the other (by being the victim) doesn't get you anything. Take responsibility and you're given everything. The other was you the whole time.

    ReplyDelete

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