Sunday, July 31, 2011

DSM-5

This was a fascinating Wired article conveying some of the most common criticisms of the proposed DSM-5: "To critics, the greatest liability of the DSM-5 process is precisely this disconnect between its ambition on one hand and the current state of the science on the other. On the authority of doctors and psychologists' dirty little secret:
The authority of any doctor depends on their ability to name a patient’s suffering. For patients to accept a diagnosis, they must believe that doctors know—in the same way that physicists know about gravity or biologists about mitosis—that their disease exists and that they have it. But this kind of certainty has eluded psychiatry, and every fight over nomenclature threatens to undermine the legitimacy of the profession by revealing its dirty secret: that for all their confident pronouncements, psychiatrists can’t rigorously differentiate illness from everyday suffering. This is why, as one psychiatrist wrote after the APA voted homosexuality out of the DSM, “there is a terrible sense of shame among psychiatrists, always wanting to show that our diagnoses are as good as the scientific ones used in real medicine.”
The solution and the problem that the solution created:
Since 1980, when the DSM-III was published, psychiatrists have tried to solve this problem by using what is called descriptive diagnosis: a checklist approach, whereby illnesses are defined wholly by the symptoms patients present. The main virtue of descriptive psychiatry is that it doesn’t rely on unprovable notions about the nature and causes of mental illness, as the Freudian theories behind all those “neuroses” had done. Two doctors who observe a patient carefully and consult the DSM’s criteria lists usually won’t disagree on the diagnosis—something that was embarrassingly common before 1980. But descriptive psychiatry also has a major problem: Its diagnoses are nothing more than groupings of symptoms. If, during a two-week period, you have five of the nine symptoms of depression listed in the DSM, then you have “major depression,” no matter your circumstances or your own perception of your troubles. “No one should be proud that we have a descriptive system,” Frances tells me. “The fact that we do only reveals our limitations.” Instead of curing the profession’s own malady, descriptive psychiatry has just covered it up.
What is at stake:
At stake in the fight between Frances and the APA is more than professional turf, more than careers and reputations, more than the $6.5 million in sales that the DSM averages each year. The book is the basis of psychiatrists’ authority to pronounce upon our mental health, to command health care dollars from insurance companies for treatment and from government agencies for research. It is as important to psychiatrists as the Constitution is to the US government or the Bible is to Christians. Outside the profession, too, the DSM rules, serving as the authoritative text for psychologists, social workers, and other mental health workers; it is invoked by lawyers in arguing over the culpability of criminal defendants and by parents seeking school services for their children. If, as Frances warns, the new volume is an “absolute disaster,” it could cause a seismic shift in the way mental health care is practiced in this country. It could cause the APA to lose its franchise on our psychic suffering, the naming rights to our pain.
The future:
Some mental health researchers are convinced that the DSM might soon be completely revolutionized or even rendered obsolete. In recent years, the National Institute of Mental Health has launched an effort to transform psychiatry into what its director, Thomas Insel, calls clinical neuroscience. This project will focus on observable ways that brain circuitry affects the functional aspects of mental illness—symptoms, such as anger or anxiety or disordered thinking, that figure in our current diagnoses. The institute says it’s “agnostic” on the subject of whether, or how, this process would create new definitions of illnesses, but it seems poised to abandon the reigning DSM approach. “Our resources are more likely to be invested in a program to transform diagnosis by 2020,” Insel says, “rather than modifying the current paradigm.”

188 comments:

  1. i like ur blog, bbb

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  2. let's stick to ME's post, important topicJuly 31, 2011 at 6:55 AM

    erin, today I will only read the comments and understand the people here in general. this will help me in the future when I start talking what to expect and what not to take personal. this is an important topic and we should hear out different opinions on diagnosis. i'm inviting you to do the same. don't respond to what I'm bringing up below today, have your sunday break, and surprise the socios. Instead if you have something to say (that has nothing to do with you but has to do with the ME's post please post it under any name but erin. and don't tell us anything about your life today.

    you do one thing amazingly well. you paraphrase people and double check if you understood correctly.

    but come monday, please explain to me if that paraphrasing and fact checking is something you do in person all the time.

    that is a recommended activity when teaching a communication class, because people hardly do that.

    in your case it is overdone.

    I am curious if your mother taught you to do that when you were a little girl, so you just keep doing it thinking you are being a good girl. I am not saying this needs to be eliminated by any means, but when you do it constantly it appears that you are dumb and/or insecure. Like chocolate, it's great when done in moderation.

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  3. I don't give a shit about any of this. Lol.

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  4. @ misanthrope

    my thoughts at exactly :D

    @ bbb

    your blog is fantastic, much better then zwang and not able's fuckass blogs

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  5. why does sociapaths dont give a shit?

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  6. I am just a worthless liar.
    I am just an imbecile.
    I will only complicate you.
    Trust in me and fall as well.
    I will find a center in you.
    I will chew it up and leave,
    I will work to elevate you
    just enough to bring you down

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  7. "I don't give a shit about any of this. Lol."

    Me neither. M.E sure does like a ton boring crap for a socio.

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  8. Some mental health researchers are convinced that the DSM might soon be completely revolutionized or even rendered obsolete. In recent years, the National Institute of Mental Health has launched an effort to transform psychiatry into what its director, Thomas Insel, calls clinical neuroscience. This project will focus on observable ways that brain circuitry affects the functional aspects of mental illness—symptoms, such as anger or anxiety or disordered thinking, that figure in our current diagnoses.

    good to hear.

    studies have shown that brain waves of psychopaths are different from those of normal subjects, yet we're preoccupied with understanding the intent behind the actions.

    there are techniques for inducing different brain wave states. and research has shown that the brain is plastic. wouldn't it make more sense to address physiological makeup rather than psychological one in all perceived psychiatric disorders?

    all our actions, good or evil, must be made within the framework of the brain, such as it is. yet how it functions remains largely a mystery.

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  9. I am not a psychopath, i am far greater and more evil than a psychopath.

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  10. if i run into a wal and damage my frontal lobe will i be socio?

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  11. @jimmy

    You mirin my psychopathic genetics bro?

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  12. i like what thrope said cos he's not even pretending to be interested... deep down we all know this is some boring as hell crap. now some more asswipes who think they're clever are gonna come along say some boring crap about it... this is my prophecy.

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  13. Mother Mary won't you whisper
    something but the past and done.

    Why can't we not be sober?
    I Just want to start this over.
    Why can't we sleep forever?
    I Just want to start things over.

    Good anon. Although i listen more to classical music Tool is one of the best modern bands, i often wonder if Maynard is a sociopath judging by his lyrics.
    I interpret it as being a code, waiting to be decrypted.

    On topic i find the DSM to be a bunch of bullshit they just put a lot of symptoms that can be a sign of anything and then name it.
    The funniest thing is psychologists exist to fix your mind, implying there is something wrong in the first place.
    My nihilist self can not accept right or wrong, good or bad, sometimes it is even hard to define things as being right or wrong, because it all the depends on the point of view.
    A good job for a sociopath would be becoming a psychologist, what does a psychologist do besides studding a person a lying to them to make them think in other ways?
    That is the job of a psychologist to study, interpret and lie.
    And of course any manipulative personality can do this much better then any emapth.
    Narcissists.
    Psychopaths.
    Borderlines.

    I wonder of is the % of psychologists and psychiatrists that have any of these 3 personal disorders. I bet is close to at least 50% if not higher.
    It is as they say, people become psychologists and psychiatrists to solve their own problems.
    It makes sense.
    The DSM is nothing but a book of labels, wondering why that is?
    Dont you all try to label people judging by their personalities?
    Yeah call me a conspiracy theorist.

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  14. Gray mustard is a tool

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  15. anon with the long boring post... you are said asswipe.

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  16. "@ bbb

    your blog is fantastic, much better then zwang and not able's fuckass blogs"

    I have to agree.

    "If I could live in the jungle
    Maybe I wouldn't be so stuckup in my problems"

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  17. This made me lol so hard:

    "I got a kitten and it hates me.
    The end"

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  18. @anon 9:27 am

    Do you really think the tool singer is a sociopath?

    The fact that he has huge creative ability and is as egodystonic as a monk, tells me that he is in no way a sociopath. He's pretty much the opposite of a sociopath imo.

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  19. Sociopaths can be very creative too if you wanted to kill someone of how many ways to do it can you think of in 1min?
    I had to search up egodystonic, i dont know maybe you are right its just what i think.

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  20. @anon

    Not very many, I'd have to sit down and really focus, i have huge attention deficits. Calling Maynard a sociopath is like calling Trent reznur a sociopath, it's absurd. Both are guys that couldn't fit so they went and wrote a bunch of angsty "deep" songs, so others like them could relate. The same with that radio head guy with the crippled ear, i forget his name.

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  21. If you are looking for sociopaths in the music business, I'd start by looking at mainstream music. That's where the money and ego is centered, the singers don't give a crap about the fans and would pretty much sell them anything to make a dollar off them. I think Kanye west is a sociopath.

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  22. kanya west is a huge narc.

    one time he went to an awards festival, and found out that he was only meant to be presenting it, so he threw a tantrum until they made an award up just for him and presented him with it.

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  23. Kanye west is amazing.

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  24. P1

    My psychologist thinks the DSM is full of shit. He's said so multiple times. He's also the only shrink I've seen that I've liked and thought was halfway competent. He feels that most mental health issues and personality disorders encompass a spectrum, not something cut and dry. He also feels that, as a therapist, having a specific label doesn't mean much.

    He's told me that you could qualify for any number of issues listed in the book, a wide variety, but what matters most is what's going on inside your head, what your thoughts are, et cetera. That's how you get to the bottom of things and understand, and inevitably embrace, therapy, if you wish, as a patient.

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  25. Kanye West loves the caps-lock key. He also loves misspelled words, exclamation points and unnecessary grandstanding. He regularly uses his Kanyeuniversecity.com blog to boast about his accomplishments, but in January 2009 he outdid himself. "YOOOO WHY WON'T YOU LET ME BE GREAT!!!" West complained on Jan. 22 in a rambling, nonsensical blog post that seems to be about his hacked MySpace and Gmail accounts. "PLEASE I BEG YOU, GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!! PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LET ME BE GREAT!!!" He ended his tirade by posting a photo of himself performing at one of President Obama's Inaugural Balls and observing, "LOOK HOW FRESH MY SUIT IS."

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  26. Why do you go to a shrink TNP?

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  27. That's what i was thinking..

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  28. P2

    I don't go to him for sociopathy, but it seems like my empathy levels and interpersonal relations are at the core of the problem that I do go there for. He's told me that yes, I probably can't re-wire my brain (if I even wanted to, which I've told him I don't) but understanding myself better, my past, my thought patterns, all those things link to how I behave and relate to others.

    He's never pulled jargon out of his ass to explain anything, or theorize something on the dime. He makes observations, we talk about it, exchange thoughts, and sometimes come to conclusions. I've learned a lot about myself and others doing these sessions the last few months. And not once has he referenced the infernal DSM. Ever. Hell, I don't think he's even listed off a trait before.

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  29. @TNP

    Are you stating that a person that does not fit into the specific personality disorder, through traits, that that person could still have that personality disorder?

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  30. P3

    I think that's what therapy should be about more than anything. Understanding yourself better. Knowing what you can fix, if you can, and seeing if you even want to. It's not about what kind of Crazy you are, and I couldn't give a shit about clinical diagnoses for public safety. Fuck big government and fuck them for interfering.

    If 1 in 100 people are psychopaths, and even more are sociopaths, and even more have ASPD, thrown in with all the other PDs, actual mental illnesses, and factoring co-morbidity, more than half the fucking world is batshit nuts according to that book. And I think using that book, with such a wide-covering blanket, to diagnose anyone with a condition that could negatively affect their life is an injustice.

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  31. not able doesn't know what he's talking about

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  32. If our society were to be a little more different some of the traits in the DSM wouldnt exist

    Society itself is the problem.

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  33. don't hate authority, become authority.

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  34. @Anon 10:49

    I think it's certainly possible. Some PDs are measured more heavily off behavior than interpersonal relations, thoughts, et cetera. Even though Psychopathy is not in the DSM, I think Zhawq has stated in the past that there are definitely Psychopaths that wouldn't make the 30 point cut due to a lack of antisocial behavior. Does that nullify their brain abnormalities and the fact that they act and think so differently? No. But according to a point sheet, it makes them non-psychopathic, but close. What the fuck does that even mean, close? Like, sorry Charlie, you scored a 31. Life sentence for you in the UK. But lucky Number 27? He's just got issues. It's ridiculous.

    I agree with with some of the sentiments in the blog article. Psychiatry should be focused on neuro-activity, and psychology on therapy. Not getting label happy and speculating over the intricacies between two close issues. Take Borderlines and Histrionics. Or ASPD and NPD. The list goes on. One DSM version, you're this, the next, your condition doesn't even exist. It's a bunch of shit. I wholly agree with my psychologist on that matter.

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  35. You're all a bunch of fucking idiots. IMHO

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  36. No one here is a psychopath psychopaths dont exist

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  37. I think the psychopathy checklist is very accurate.

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  38. @TNP

    Does you're psychologist think you are psychopathic? Did he notice a lack of empathy towards others?

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  39. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YUY8joRMaE

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  40. oh no know the standard of conversation is slowly rising!

    hey, not able, you're a faggot!

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  41. @Anon 11:07

    P1

    My psychologist says that I definitely have a lack of empathy, am callous, abusive and sadistic, and that I experience emotions with others mostly through projection if at all. He doesn't think I'm a psychopath (and I agree) but I do have some atypical affect and interpersonal differences from aspd/sociopathy that make me seem that way.

    I let him into my head with no filters on occasion, but he usually has to press me to get a completely open and honest answer. The man's got a hell of a fucking poker face. I've only seen him cringe from a few things I've said over the months. And he's got a pretty morbid sense of humor too, so that helps.

    He's told me that he's actually had a lot of patients with affect and empathy issues, but that most of them are from abuse as a child, or an important relationship, and that most of them are cold/cutoff/depressed as opposed to being on the sociopathic/psychopathic spectrum.

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  42. Shut up not able...lol

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  43. @Anon 11:07

    P2

    He describes my empathy issues as more like a burned bridge, or an impenetrable fortress. Like my brain had to shut off certain parts in order to stay sane (irony, much?) and that those areas are no longer available, or at least not through modern medicine/therapy.

    As for the callousness, manipulation, and sadism, he said that's probably because of how I see people. Like relationships are a matter of survival, oppositional, et cetera, as in, even if I wanted to, I can't see them as anything more than an asset or an obstacle (or both) because I can't connect with them on a personal level. And since we're animals essentially, and that's how many animals relate to each other (ones that don't have empathy), that's how one survives.

    He mentioned how some animals, reptiles especially, will eat their young if they need to in order to survive. Yes, their goal in life is to reproduce and keep the species going, but if it is between them, and some eggs/newborns, they will always choose their own survival. And you can't blame them for that. It isn't good/evil, that shit's man made. It's about surviving and thriving.

    He does seem to wish that I could do more than simply understand the differences. I think it frustrates him. I know on an intellectual level the differences, and how to try to bridge it, but I can't. The burned bridge has too far a gap to cross.

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  44. This is about Sam himself.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zGuy5PEIO0

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  45. what exactly are you seeing a shrink for, tnp?

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  46. I was originally going to go see one back around the time ResC posted his Psychopathy blog article to talk about my sociopathy, but decided it would be better not to, for cost and for practicality. Several weeks later, I had an incident occur that showed me, without a shadow of a doubt, that I have an issue that occasionally I can't control, no matter how much I think I can control myself. I've had this problem since I was a kid, and sometimes indulged it, but over the years it's more and more risky. But when it happened, I literally had no control at all. It was like I was someone else, or someone else was at the wheel, all self control was lost, all logic gone. It was both liberating and disturbing.

    I wanted to go into it with some hope of actual treatment, or advice, but due to its nature, I had to find someone who was willing to treat me anonymously with cash. It wasn't actually that hard to find, surprisingly. It's a chronic issue but shifts in severity, and neither of us seem to know what Really sets it off. When my old man died, and it happened, it was manageable. But when I lost all control, there were no extenuating circumstances that would have intensified it that either of us could pinpoint. Until we can figure out how to manage it, or one of us gives up, I'll keep going. It's something I'll probably be dealing with for the rest of my life.

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  47. are you a pedophile, note(seriously? what's the issue?

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  48. i'm no taking the mick with the pedophile question, btw.

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  49. No, that would be an easy fix, actually. They have chemical castration for pedos nowadays. It's violent in nature, and doesn't have to do with kids (thankfully). That's all I'm going to say.

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  50. serial killer much?

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  51. Why didn't you indulge in it note.

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  52. Who the fuck would get themselves chemically castrated? I love my manhood.

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  53. Note, do you cut yourself?

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  54. note = child molesting, serial raping/killing dumbass.

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  55. Note, your father must have died very recently. You used to write about him that he was sick. When did he die?

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  56. Note, last question. I suspect that maybe I am not an empath, maybe mine is also like yours, projection. How do you know? How can I know?

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  57. Those bastards shouldn't be allowed chemical castration, that is inhumane.

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  58. Interesting. I still haven't opened up fully to my therapist. I wonder what would happen if I did. Thank you for sharing Notable.

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  59. @Anon 11:57

    This might help you, it's about empathy vs projection.

    http://notablepath.blogspot.com/2011/05/empathy-illusions.html

    @Haven

    Haven't you been doing therapy a lot longer than me? :P Maybe you need a new and anonymous one. You can afford to be, there. The therapist is only obliged to report you if you tell them that you're going to leave and murder/harm someone and specify who it is, or yourself. And if they don't know your name, or what car you drive, they'd have a hell of a time doing it. I always park several blocks away and use a fake name. They only way my therapist could identify me would be my physical description.

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  60. it's strange to think how easy it is to get executed. i was making some breakfast in the kitchen this morning, and my room mate had her back turned, there was a knife on the counter and i just thought, if i stabbed her in the neck that's my life gone. i could actually picture myself picking the knife up and doing it, my hands were moving towards it.

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  61. TNP = Werewolf

    simple

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  62. Hm, Interesting. I never thought about doing it anonymously.

    Yeah I've been in for about 8 months now. It helps to an extent though I honestly thing I get more out of writing about therapy than the actual going to it some days.

    I'm afraid if I show my therapist just how little I'm able to care about other people at times, how angry I am... she'll kick me out. It's pretty common for us =(

    Then again, I'm not really sure why I care.

    Anonymous, hm....

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  63. @Anon 12:07

    and people say I am paranoid for always wanting to sit with my back to a wall and at a place I can see the entrances.

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  64. note, thanks for the link.

    the only reason i have not been able to go to a therapist is this having to let him know who I am. I assumed they would have to get the id for legal processing. how should I approach? just call and ask? did you say you were not using your correct name?

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  65. lets take a vote.

    who is the sickest fuck on sw?

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  66. note, i just read the link. i now am really confused because experiences help everyone (socio or empath) to feel/understand better the emotions the other must be phasing. Being able to project often does not exclude the possibility of one having empathy. What experience would show that I don't have empathy?

    Once a gf said 'there is not a single innocent cell left in your body' when the topic was innocence. I never understood what she meant, and failed to ask.

    At another time a bf said 'why don't you let me love you?' That one sure sounded like the stupidest thing I heard. I had no idea what he was talking about.

    But, to me both of these people themselves are socio-like (as in sleeping with married people, in their circle of friends, without a thought).

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  67. If it is by your own volition, and your psychologist agrees to it (not sure about psychiatrists) you do have to provide a name for billing records, but not ID. As long as you're paying cash and not check/cc/insurance, they have no way to track you. I straight up told him I would not use my real name, ever.

    He tried to get me to give my real identity a few times "for my own safety and the safety of others" but I flat out refused. I asked him if he could arrange temporary holding in a mental facility if I thought I was going to become uncontrollable again, without the consequences of being stuck there, and he said it would raise quite a few questions and they would probably have to evaluate me, and of course, find out my actual identity. Just a heads up, in case that was on your mind. If you have a similar problem, be it violence, arson, or sexual in nature, I'd suggest you find a place you can go to in solitude for a few days away from everyone until it blows over, or you find a less extreme way to sate it. I have a few things I do to lessen the strain on occasion, but the temptation to go the extra mile is always there, so it's a risk.

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  68. :) not phasing, facing...

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  69. Psychiatrists require ID and personal identification information because they often prescribe controlled substances. There's no going to one of those without revealing who you are.

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  70. Empathy is not binary. It comes in degrees and flavors. There's intuitive empathy (what's normally considered Empathy in whole) cognitive empathy, and one or two others. What's typically considered to be empathy is the intuitive side, the sharing, et cetera. Technically though, there is simply recognizing an emotion. It may sound absurd, not recognizing an emotion (someone is red with anger) but to say, as Aspie, it might actually be a challenge.

    Projection is like using the wrong puzzle piece. It fits somewhat, awkwardly, but it just isn't the same thing as the real McCoy, the real experience of sharing an emotional moment with someone, or sensing it. It's just observation + relating.

    Say, for example, I had to take someone to get an abortion. I can tell she is nervous, anxious, maybe even guilty (or in denial), but do I feel anything? Can I relate to her in any way? Not at all.

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  71. i'd go with zhawq being the sickest fuck, seeing as he's admitted to killing people fun and raping people for experimentation. even if none of that's true, it's always the nice one's who turn out to be total psychos.

    if not him then then misanthrope, seeing as he admitted to raping men, and i get the impression that he's fairly sadistic and enjoys violence.

    it could be notable, but we haven't heard enough about his problem, sooooo who knows?

    i think notme is probably a sick fuck underneath that bubbly exterior.

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  72. That's what I figured, Haven. I didn't even consider one of those over a psychologist mostly because I never heard of medication helping my issue.

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  73. Going to see a psychiatrist is very different than seeing a psychologist. Psychologists/therapists you sit down, talk for an hour, yadda yadda.... Psychiatrists you might talk to for 15 minutes but they're medical doctors and primarily drug pushers. They listen to whatever you think your main problems are for a few minutes to help give them idea of how to control them chemically but they don't really get into who you are or what your issues are.

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  74. ::nods:: I can't think of anything that I've read about medically that would 'help' (?) your general being. Hell, Psychiatrist hasn't done me any good yet. In fact I think the last 8 months have been worse for me in general since being on the various drugs he's tried.

    Good call.

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  75. you are a sick fuck, right notable?

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  76. that anon was not the one asking the questions, note.

    it really is hard to pinpoint this thing. just like you can't relate to abortion, i couldn't (never had one), and i sure could not relate to circumcision. but, i would feel sorry that they will have pain, and i would not try to minimize their experience and concern.

    i do get preoccupied when I see large numbers of people die, and I stay with the story longer than most, and once the discomfort I feel is too much I divorce myself from it. i assumed i was an uber empath all these years, and now it may all be projection, actually.

    but, i could not hurt someone physically, or see any pleasure in doing so. i don't even want to see them naked unless they'd look really good naked (as in better than how they look dressed).

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  77. Enjoying violence doesn't always seem sadistic to me. It's more like a rush and It makes me feel like I'm living in action movie. Lots of people enjoy it more then they admit. Violence really is just as glamorous in real life as it is in films. That's the truth. Sex makes me feel like I'm staring in a porno. Sometimes I like it when whoever I'm having sex with is in pain but alot of the time I don't have any real compulsion to cause it and it's not the only way I get off. I don't know exactly what's happened to some of the people I've hurt. Even if I do I wont tell the truth about it here(obviously). That was especially the case when I was a teen and all violence was sport. I'm no serial killer though. Most serial killers seem like ugly pathetic losers taking their revenge out on the world the only way can. Sometimes violence is necessary in my life and I don't have problem with it. Practically all the men in my family are violent and some are killers so it's always felt normal to me. I grew up around it.

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  78. Pt1
    I'm tired of seeing the word uber attached to empath.

    Uber empath is nother opposite of sociopath. Regular old empath is the opposite. Let me give you an example.

    A man has three sons. 1 has normal empathy levels(NT), one has heightened empathy levels(Empath), and one has low empathy levels(S/P/A).

    The man is dieing in a horribly physically visually painful fashion.

    He calls all three sons to his deathbed. The three sons arrive at the same time and enter at the same. All of them look the father over.

    The empath son spends five minutes in the room before he has to run out.

    The NT son stays but has trouble making eye contact with the father and tends to be able to only look at him in short burst. He is obviously troubled.

    The S son stands over his fathers bed and holds a conversation with the dad making normal eye contact and doesn't flinch when the father groans and yelps from pain.

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  79. @Mis... I think you're right. People appreciate violence more than they let on. I certainly do, granted, I'm not what anyone considers normal.

    I wonder what would happen if people abided by the rules of society but freely admitted to the thoughts and feelings they had.

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  80. Yeah I always wondered if uber empath was an actual term.

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  81. "@Mis... I think you're right. People appreciate violence more than they let on."

    I was watching this documentary about british forces in afghanistan, and alot of them were saying how they eventually ended up enjoying killing. I've heard that men do generally enjoy killing groups as well. Any reluctance to kill can be trained of the average man I think.

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  82. I can't relate to you, anon. I don't feel sympathy for the suffering or dying. I can acknowledge, yeah, that's shit, but more I'm just glad it's not me.

    I should have put more detail into the abortion analogy, because I'm sure other guys would feel the same that aren't sociopaths/psychopaths. It's also that I don't feel guilt, I don't feel shame, sadness, and I'm generally never anxious, so almost everything she's going through, I haven't a clue what she feels, and couldn't. Not contextually, just, at all.

    I hope that helps.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Here's an article about it.

    http://newworldorderreport.com/News/tabid/266/ID/3330/The-Schrumpf-effect-Why-soldiers-get-a-kick-out-of-killing.aspx

    ReplyDelete
  84. 'I don't know exactly what's happened to some of the people I've hurt. Even if I do I wont tell the truth about it here(obviously).'

    EPIC FAIL.

    admit it, peeps... you're all murderers and/or rapists.

    c'mon, i wont tell anyone (;

    ReplyDelete
  85. Pt2

    Each of these men are experiencing empathy at different levels. The very high levels act very differently from the very low levels. A HIGH LEVEL OF EMPATHY DOES NOT ACT LIKE A LOW LEVEL! However, in saying that people with high levels feel guilt more vividly. That is why they often see themselves as bad and will demonize themselves. They also have a strong need to divorce themselves away from others pain because they feel others pain very vividly. Since they feel that pain so vividly they have a hard time inflicting pain on other or watching them in pain. They feel others pain first hand. They tend to be highly emotional. They will act out in anger, show signs of despair, and go through what seems like physical pain in an emotional traumatic situation.

    The NT son feels pain for the father but is also dealing with his own emotions of loss and grief. He has a degree of separation that allows him to function to some extent. His emotions and his fathers emotions are separate in his head even though he can identify with what his father is going through. Also he has no experience that he can relate to what his father is going through. So it is all intuitive.

    The (S/P/A) son feels none of the pain that his other brothers feel. While he understands that his father is in a great deal of pain the separation from his fathers pain is vast. He understands it intellectually perhaps but there is no emotional response to his fathers pain. He could feel sorry for the father or he could simply not care. If he acts naturally he won't seem emotionally disturbed at all. He will most likely be calm and feel fine. Most of these individuals are egocentric. They have no way to relate to people on a real emotional level.

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  86. Interesting article. I would think Marshal wrong, purely from the standpoint that if you are in a position to kill or be killed, your own natural instinct to preserve your own life would take over. Self-preservation will rule. I can understand how taking the life of another man would be repugnant but not at the expense of losing your own, and in war time or combat scenarios there’s simply no other choice. I suppose logic doesn’t really come into play for most people in this type of thing though.

    I can absolutely see how propaganda and desensitization could lead anyone to kill. Change the thinking, change the actions. It does seem that almost anyone can learn to kill, even enjoy it…. For a time. Some people will always be prone to the PTSD guilt though.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anyone here who admits to, and goes into detail about anything that they haven't been convicted for is an idiot. We're not your "peeps" either.

    ReplyDelete
  88. In the documentary I watched the soldiers really warmed up to the idea of killing and became much more focused and aggressive after one of their mates got killed. It was funny because when he got shot they couldn't even get him on the streacher and they dropped him about 10 feet a way from the transport vehicle. I think war really whips people into shape.

    I agree that logic doesn't really come into play. When your in any type of combat situation and you're fighting for your life, you're body's running on pure adrenaline and you just act. I've never been to war but I've experienced this before.

    ReplyDelete
  89. "The two out of 100 soldiers who seemed unscathed by prolonged combat displayed "aggressive psychopathic personalities," the psychiatrists reported. In other words, combat didn't drive these men crazy because they were crazy to begin with."

    Lol. I just read the article over again. I forgot about that part. I think all sociopaths enjoy conflict and Fighting. I know I do. I don't think all sociopaths would do well as soldiers because It's hard to follow orders. They say that psychopathic soldiers are more likely to get shot because of wreckless behaviour, but If you think about it the lucky ones who can pull shit off and get away with it may be the one's who go onto become war heroes.

    ReplyDelete
  90. nah, sociopaths suck. a sociopath would probably shoot is CO in the face for irritating him, desert is friends to save his own skin.

    ReplyDelete
  91. "If it wasn't for those damn Yanks, we could have kept the war going another 10 years!"

    -Jack Churchill

    ReplyDelete
  92. *do generally enjoy killing in groups

    ReplyDelete
  93. If the DSM was inaccurate, what would make this 'revolutionary' advance anymore accurate? Psychologists are the ones who get together to discuss mental illnesses and how to better diagnose people.

    The DSM is basically just a gigantic cluster-fuck of what others talked about. You can't take shit and transform it, it's unrealistic.

    ReplyDelete
  94. tnp is a serial killer(so he says, and apparently half the people on this site are too). read his blog article 'The Hunter'.

    do you guys have respect for serial killers?
    personally, i'm not impressed.

    ReplyDelete
  95. I don't care about any of this. I only care about my own frustrations and withdrawal symptoms. Because I'm an AH.

    I'm pissed off at having to stock up on C batteries yesterday.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Freud got one thing right: sublimation.

    ReplyDelete
  97. "do you guys have respect for serial killers?
    personally, i'm not impressed."

    Some are awesome.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Rodney alcala is one of the sickest serial killers to live. He abducted a 12 year old girl, strangled her, raped her, then smashed her face in with a rock while she was still alive.

    A few years before that he had kidnapped an 8 year old, and beat her head in. The girl was found in his home in a pool of blood barely alive, by the police. A witness who saw Alcala lure the girl into his car, saved the girl by calling the police.

    ReplyDelete
  99. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD5uOTCxRCk

    ReplyDelete
  100. @Medusa

    lol That must have been some incredible dick.

    ReplyDelete
  101. I have no more respect for serial killers then I do for the next guy. If it's what you enjoy then go for it. Killing doesn't make you weak but if you have a compulsion to kill then you're weak in my eyes. It's the same as a junkie craving the needle. It's funny that we're focusing on violence today because things have been getting amped up in that respect in my personal life recently. I've been doing some "questionable" things but I have reasons for it. I think it's strange that I feel like I'm staring through glass at the bad things I do. I know I'm connected to them but it just doesn't feel like I am. It's a good thing because It means that I can deal with these messes in a calm way. Sometimes I wonder why shit has to be dumbed in my lap though. Why cant people just learn not to fuck up all the time?

    "I don't care about any of this. I only care about my own frustrations and withdrawal symptoms. Because I'm an AH."

    That's the spirit

    ReplyDelete
  102. The reason why TNP has those hunter instincts in the first place is because he is projecting the abuse he suffered as a child.

    He is a pathetic loser kid in my book.

    ReplyDelete
  103. It was :/

    The whole physical package. Perfect.

    And I'm not even one who's impressed by dicks or feels nostalgia about them.

    ReplyDelete
  104. ur a drug dealing lowlife like ukan. aren't you misanthrope?

    ReplyDelete
  105. misanthrope=ukan

    How pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Where do you people pull this shit from? I've got nothing to do with the drug trade and If I did I wouldn't be ashamed to admit it. What I do isn't legal but you're just grabbing at straws.

    "misanthrope=ukan"

    We've been over this jason.

    ReplyDelete
  107. misanthrope = soulful

    ukan = jason

    ME = kesu

    1 + 2 = 6!!!!!!!

    AHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  108. even if not able is a serial killer, he's still a faggot.
    what kind of sociopath goes to a shrink for help with his need to kill?

    ReplyDelete
  109. "@Mis

    Are you a pimp?"

    No. My only experience with pimping was a while back when I came back into contact with this girl I used know when I was little. She was basically a failed prostitute because she was too scared to go out onto the streets. So I told her that I'd introduce her to some people I know if she gives me some of her pay. This was back when I had no money so I was trying all sorts of things to make it. I got her to fuck someone I knew and it all went fine but then after that it went wrong because she fucked off somewhere up north with her brother. That's all the pimping I've ever done.

    ReplyDelete
  110. ewwwwwwwww... you're all such sleazy horrible people. i wish death upon you all... upon you aaaaaaallllll.

    ReplyDelete
  111. how do you make you're money misanthrope?

    ReplyDelete
  112. He doesn't make a lot of money.

    The game is getting dumb blokes like you to think he is some self-made upper middle classmen.

    ReplyDelete
  113. I'm an expert assassin working for an organization so top secret that even the CIA and MI5 don't know about it.
    When I'm not out on crazy black op missions I'm communicating with my handlers through a secret sequence of letters and symbols on this blog all disguised as harmless conversation.

    ReplyDelete
  114. The s/p, I know is a virgin. She says sex is disgusting and the thought makes her want to puke.

    Is this common?

    ReplyDelete
  115. really, mis? are you being serious?

    ReplyDelete
  116. No of course I'm not being serious you twat. Christ I don't know how some of you people even figured out how to use a computer. I'm not rich. I never said I was. But right now I'm definitely not poor and I'm making good money. If you can figure out what I do then I might tell you. I might tell you just because I feel like it at some point. Even when I do tell you I cant go into much detail. I like leaving alot of things out in the open just to fuck people about and keep them guessing.

    ReplyDelete
  117. gun runner or human trafficker.

    ReplyDelete
  118. I mean however the bitch is making money, it shouldn't matter. The only point here is that he is available on SW to fight with for no particular reason.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Jason why are you so fucking butt hurt?

    ReplyDelete
  120. Mis is probably going to be a broke bum again soon. You guys shouldn't be so jealous. You just may have to privilege of buying his free lunch one day.

    ReplyDelete
  121. hold up a sec, i don't know how any of you guys make a living. what do the rest of you guys do?

    ReplyDelete
  122. A wolf in sheep's clothing
    The ultimate disgrace
    Wrapped up as a gift of god
    Exploding in your face

    ReplyDelete
  123. Do you guys think that a state/country that doesn't use the death penalty, could reinstate the death penalty for especially awful crimes?

    ReplyDelete
  124. Jason I don't even know what to say to you. You don't even have enough money to move out of your mums basement and you've done absolutely nothing with your life. You have no purpose. You're wasting everyone else's oxygen at the moment you selfish cunt. Go get a fucking job already you bloody slacker and don't blow all your money on jammy doughnuts. Lol.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Mis, didn't you say in a earlier post that you were in the music bussiness?

    ReplyDelete
  126. "Mis, didn't you say in a earlier post that you were in the music bussiness?"

    No.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Then my guess is a male dom. for money.

    ReplyDelete
  128. For all you know Mis works at the 7-11 and sells beer to underage kids at a price.

    You people and your imaginations.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Comically so, long and ponderous note or just the salient points, or a call? Available on demand.

    (any salacious thought has me shushing myself audibly. Libidos maze corked ferments elsewhere...shhh)

    ReplyDelete
  130. @Mis

    I know life sucks for me.

    I am in A/C constantly doing basically whatever the fuck I want. The only struggle I have is the occasional chore.

    I get a paid education basically, and only have to work maybe 1-2 days out of my life taking joke freshman college classes.

    All of this is legal and no police will chase me if someone finds out.

    You on the other hand have to worry about fucked up shit. Also no free A/C or education.

    Me > you atm.

    ReplyDelete
  131. It's true medusa there's no way of telling whats real and what's not on the internet. Everyone here could be a complete fake. I don't think it matters. You can believe what I say or not because I don't really care.

    Yeah shit is a bit fucked up at the moment. Everythings gotten a bit out of hand but I'm still having fun and I'm dealing with it piece by piece person by person. It's no fun if there's nobody after you. I'll laugh when you get out of college and you realise that you can't get a real job because the world is fucked. If you think you're living the dream by lounging around watching tv in your mums house then that just shows me that you're a slacker with no ambition. The chores part made laugh. I bet you still get allowence and tucked in by mummy at night. Have you taken the training wheels of you bicycle yet?

    ReplyDelete
  132. Education is overatted and boring.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Let me fuck with you for a moment mis.

    What's the difference between you, and the criminal CEO bloke doing a whole array of criminal things, making six figures, hiding under the guise of a legal business.

    Perhaps going legal, and taking the education route could make the game much more fun and complex.

    ReplyDelete
  134. @Jason

    umm no. it really wouldn't.

    ReplyDelete
  135. You fucked with me good and proper there jason. I'm right where I want to be. Working in a corporation would be to boring for me. I am hiding under the guise of a legal business in a way. Now I co-own a pub. And I'm fucking tanked right now. You should come for a drink some time. Oh wait you're not legal. Now piss off Ive got to lie down.

    ReplyDelete
  136. I'm getting really irritable.

    I'm pissed at off at my cheeseburger.

    ReplyDelete
  137. @medusa

    do you think note is a serial killer?

    ReplyDelete
  138. I've never pondered the question, nor do I much care. I doubt it, though.

    ReplyDelete
  139. lol, i like your answer.

    ReplyDelete
  140. It would still just be a replacement hunk of meat, hot sauce or no.

    At least my stomach is now full, if nothing else is.

    ReplyDelete
  141. today reminded me the good old days... good night.

    ReplyDelete
  142. I like spicy mustard. You said something about C batteries. What model is your inferior substitute?

    ReplyDelete
  143. The good old days? this place has always sucked dick, always.
    but it's soooo addictive.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Some cheap crap the guy before got for me. I think he got the cheapest one available.

    ReplyDelete
  145. i don't think note is depraved enough to be a serial killer. very few people can do that stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  146. note = faggot

    i don't care what he is or isn't, this is a fact.

    ReplyDelete
  147. sounds like crap. what about getting some kind of stimulating lube?

    ReplyDelete
  148. "note = faggot

    i don't care what he is or isn't, this is a fact."

    I concur.

    ReplyDelete
  149. I seem to need brain stimulation. They don't make a lube for that.

    ReplyDelete
  150. a conventional psychopath wouldn't even fathom of becoming a serial murderer imo. serial murderers usually have two personality disorders, in extreme forms, the antisocial personality disorder and the narcissistic personality disorder. serial murder isn't about sadism, the killer can't apprehend what the poor victim is witnessing. it's much more about possession or an ego trip, or perhaps even the hunt itself.

    the killer would also have to have some severe form of inferiority from childhood, yet at the same time the killer was smothered and treated as if he was a cut above the rest. sexual repression is constantly seen in the backgrounds of serial murderers.

    ReplyDelete
  151. i bet eden's a serial killer

    ReplyDelete
  152. Total nonsense. They come to me, already dead.

    ReplyDelete
  153. so, misanthrope is a street fighting, gun running, human trafficking, drug dealing, music mogul, scam artist, assassin and pimp, who's also into male dom and finds time to work in a 7/11 selling beer to underage kids just for shits and giggles?

    ReplyDelete
  154. I like the anon who dissects the motivations of hypothetical serial killers. What a fruitful endeavor.

    I'll be happy with the committee (or working group or whatever they're calling themselves) if they just make it utterly incomprehensible to laymen. How the message boards will burst into flame... joyous.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Total nonsense. They come to me, already dead.

    Holy lmao. High five, woman. I hear that.

    ReplyDelete
  156. I think this board just burst into flames upon your return, PMS.

    ReplyDelete
  157. I am back.I can't let Eden, a moron with the IQ of the mental cripple in Deliverance keep me from you all when I want to be here.She is the only one who would make me leave and that is plain stupido.


    @Notable
    I thought a lot about what you wrote. I have a theory to pose for you and everyone's consideration.

    The Socio is the mirror image of the uber empath/Bpd.
    The Socio had to shove down so much fear and so much sadness that the only emotion he has left is anger. If anything touches that anger,he explodes out of control.
    YET,he has little fear or sadness

    The uber empath/BPD has had to shove down so much anger and sadness that she can feel little of that but she feels tremendous fear i.e fear of abandonment.

    The answer to each is to bring up the parts that were shoved down.
    If not, one must medicate them in some way. There are many ways obviously(Crime being one of them as Ukan stated in his article.Even if he became a billionare, he would still want to feed that black hole)

    I base this on many things that I see in myself and others,here and in real life
    The key is for the Socio to get his fear and sadness and the uber empath/BPD to get her Anger and sadness.
    The Socios tend to be men who do anger better than woman.The ubers tend to be woman who do fear better than men.

    Please,don't tell me you are a BPD and are angry.This is a theory and not a rigid box Darlinks


    What you all think?

    ReplyDelete
  158. you may have something there. is uber empath borderline then?

    you posted earlier that you like giving to others, making others happy, that your focus is on others, something like that. M.E. wrote something similar earlier this year. have you considered that you might be a sociopath? not saying you are, but when i want to know if it applies i always try it on, you know to see how it feels.

    the movie looks good. i want that drug.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Zoe (not all there)August 1, 2011 at 6:26 AM

    maybe it's that Neanderthal DNA everyone is talking about

    ReplyDelete
  160. @Zoe
    No the uber empath is on the BPD spectrum though.One has BPD traits but does not have to be "full" BPD.


    @Giving to Others
    My main joy in life is giving.People are so dry and parched from lack of love that if you give, they are so amazed .You can see their faces light up and relax. We all need love and acceptance.
    I give without expecting anything from a person.
    However,by the LAW of love you get so much back that you become a well watered flower.
    You find a true happiness .
    I have so many things stored in my heart that people have said to me.
    These things give me pure joy .

    ReplyDelete
  161. why not give the others here a break then?

    it's only a forum. until you have the complete picture about a person it's hard to judge fairly. i mean why react to words that were posted possibly out of fear or anger with your own fear and anger? have you read Zhawq's post (from a few days ago) on the anonymous posters here who bait others and why he leaves them alone? his comments showed insight and empathy.

    ReplyDelete
  162. @Zoe
    What do you mean? I don't know what you are talking about.Explain please

    If you are implying that I am messing with people you are wrong.
    I don't desire to do that.I only defend myself.
    If someone picks at me I will defend myself.So, is there something wrong with that?
    What should I do? Lie down and become road kill?
    Is that what you mean?

    ReplyDelete
  163. @Medusa

    Understanding dry humor is a gift. I knew at least you, would get it. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  164. If I ever attack someone first ,if I ever hurt someone without provocation, I will RUN to apologize to them OK?
    Now, if someone is messing with me covertly that still counts that I will defend myself.
    However, I give you all my word.If I ever go after someone unprovoked I will apologize ,humble myself and ask them to forgive me

    ReplyDelete
  165. @Erin

    not messing with people, and not road kill. i meant like water off a duck's back... life is easier when you let things go.

    also, less is always more, especially here. when you react, you reveal yourself in ways you might not want to.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Now, if someone is messing with me covertly that still counts that I will defend myself.

    the best defense is no defense.

    ReplyDelete
  167. @Zoe
    I appreciate your input but I have to process and deal with things in the way that feels most true to myself as you do and everyone else for that matter.

    ReplyDelete
  168. I had a bully mother molest me and push me down my whole life. If someone does anything that resembles that I will react accordingly.
    Who would expect otherwise?

    ReplyDelete
  169. Meh, I'm not looking forward to the upcoming fifth version. They made far too many unnecessary changes. Like terminating the diagnosis of Autism, Asperger's, etc. and lumping it into one Autistic Spectrum Disorder umbrella diagnosis. Not to mention the slaughtering of plenty personality disorders, which was EXTREMELY dumb considering that they haven't come up with a new personality disorder to replace the lost ones.

    *SO MUCH RAGE; I'M SICK OF THE DSM*

    ReplyDelete

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