Thursday, June 2, 2016

Thoughts on seduction

I think I seduced someone on the plane recently. Usually I don't talk to anyone on planes, but this person was in distress initially, due to some nausea. I initially chatted them up to get their mind off the flight and the reality of their circumstances, but this person seemed genuinely interested in things about me that I think of as mundane, like where I'm from or my profession. And maybe it's an old habit, but I thought, here is someone that could be seduced. And what else am I doing on this plane? (Work, but it can wait, because plane seduction target).

The whole thing gave me a little deja vu because I seduced (my special definition of the word, see all other former posts on seduction) someone else in a similar manner and I'm still very good friends with that person (after a very spotty romance). It's happened in less identical but still similar ways maybe a half dozen other times. I'm charmed that the person is so charmed by me. The feeling intoxicates me, so I keep charming them.

Sometimes it gets a little intense for the person, I can see it in their eyes. Like when a child is begging to be tickled, but at a certain point it can get a little overwhelming -- almost painful. They know that the sensations they are feeling are spiraling out of control, but it's the sort of heady, vertiginous experience of thrill rides. That is, it's a sensation that most people seek out, not avoid.

And I'm quite good at it. That's what surprised me about this episode, because it's actually been a while since I've even thought about it. (It's like riding a bike?) But the whole time during the plane seduction, now with my more self-aware (every other week therapy) self I was wondering -- what is the point to any of this? At this place in my life I can make a pretty good guess that this person will either (1) get chewed up in the forces of my sociopathic traits, the strictures of my religion, and my generally not being (almost not at all) what they think I am, among other things, or (2) they will find enough to appreciate about actual me (despite me not being what they thought) and keep me as a sort of exotic friend pet, to amuse and flatter them from time to time when they know that I'll sense they need it and/or I'll otherwise be a regular supplier of small thrills.

And as I see this all with a little more clarity than the last go around, I wonder -- which will this person be? Be strong enough to appreciate some things about me without getting torn apart by others? And should I have some sense of paternalism to rescue this one? I think it would have to be paternalism. I don't think this particular person would stay away otherwise, because when I got off the plane and we separated, they looked like the nausea had come back, sick at something. The thought of being separated? Separated from this person that seemed so easily to read one's very soul? (I could tell this particular person was suffering from the vertigo that young adults often feel as they become older and their world seems to be shrinking by the second with limitless life possibilities zeroing in on the one they chose, hundreds of friendships narrowing down to just a few acquaintances, etc. It's an odd sensation for the sufferer, but one that I've seen often enough to easily recognize.).

These thoughts of the promise of renewal or destruction (a coin flip's chance of each) used to only be delicious to me. Now there's an odd sense of poignancy. The pleasant dissonance of an altered 7th chord. I can tell this time I feel more attached to my own role as "part of humanity". I'm actually more curious to see how I keep behaving than to see how the other person does.


  1. FIRST!!!



    1. M.E.

      I liked the term you used:

      "Exotic Pet Friend"


    2. M.E.-

      That term made me giggle.:)


    3. If you missed North's rant to me, let me give you an overview:

      Although I think I am married to a sociopath, I am an "uninterested reader".

      North is more intelligent than me, and that is why I can't always follow, what she is saying.

      North believes that I have the desire and power to get sociopaths on this site, to make a "little chorus against her".

      North would like me to go "enjoy my own adventures".

      North believes I should "fuck off".

      That about "sums it up".


    4. One last note-

      After she posts her comments, she deletes them...


    5. OH WAIT!!!

      North did leave one comment, at the present time-the comment with a link to her blog...


    6. M.E.-regarding your tweet:

      "Some ideas, even good ideas, would be more problematic to implement than the problem they seek to solve."

      Yes, indeed. I agree completely.:)

      P.S. I bought your book, and can't wait to read it!!!


    7. Is anyone there?

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  3. This is very similar to flirting. What makes it different, predatory, is the payoff. What is it for?

  4. Wow. I've finally found people similar to me! I thought there was something wrong with me for a while. This is not a disorder, it's a talent, a gift from God himself!

  5. I thought this was cute, particularly because it does NOT sound like a purely sociopathic seduction. You actually thought (apparently a lot) about the long-term consequences of pursuing this further, for BOTH of you. It's as if you're flirting in the "right" way (not a pre-planned seduction with an end goal in mind...I assume) the first time and are naturally nervous about the outcome.

    It reminds me of how I was behaving with people I was meeting & trying to befriend when I started to prioritize socializing...I'd find myself inadvertently flirting with almost everyone and more often than not, I could see they started reading in more than I had expected. It was my fault...I'd foolishly assume that most people would be like me and not take anything too seriously unless it's clearly spelled out.

    "And as I see this all with a little more clarity than the last go around, I wonder -- which will this person be? Be strong enough to appreciate some things about me without getting torn apart by others?"

    I don't give relationship advice (not qualified) but one thing that always works with a person worth keeping around is honesty. Let them know early on that you have some "imperfections" and that he might not be comfortable with somethings when he finds out (i.e. "I didn't have the best upbringing and have made mistakes in my life which I regret..."). Like I said, if he's worth keeping around, he won't care and will actually respect you a lot more for your honesty & bravery. If he runs away scared, be glad you saved yourself the time.

    Try the opposite of the sociopathic way: keep a little bit of the charm up but don't over do it and don't lie or mislead. It's difficult to build trust back up once you lose it. All this is, of course, under the assumption that this is intended to be more than just sex.

    1. Looking back over her life, it may eventually seem regrettable how many years it's taken to work out that "what is the point to any of this?"
      It's good that ME is "more curious to see how I keep behaving than to see how the other person does."
      Being charming to someone feeling sick on a plane - most people would do it. [Especially if it meant they didn't throw up in your lap]. Legally the phrase is 'Charming, with the intent to be kind'.
      Maturity comes to everyone, in the fullness of time.

  6. That Friend of YoursJune 2, 2016 at 7:01 PM


  7. "I'm charmed that the person is so charmed by me. The feeling intoxicates me, so I keep charming them."

    Good. You deserve it M.E. I'm glad that happened to you. You showed comfort to them in the midst of air sickness.


    I totally understand this exchange. It happens to me. And I have to remind myself I'm married and I keep within proper protocol.

    But I know that chemistry in the air. It's a connection. You zoned in. How far we play determines the outcome. I'm married I stay within my limits. If I was single and them single-- play away! ;) it's okay.

    But for you this is natural and maybe it's just your love language at play. I'm the same way.

    Human traits amplified. We can spot it quicker.

  8. ^ Haha I meant superchick. My bleepin phone and it's autocorrect. I need coffee.

    1. Superchick I love that typo so much :) It's exactly the sort of thing I do :) I'm not back yet - up to my eyes and and under pressure - but had to drop in to say that! (agree with what you said too)

    2. Anon 2, 8-)

      Get back to work! LOL

      eXK now KAT

    3. "But I know that chemistry in the air. It's a connection. You zoned in. How far we play determines the outcome. I'm married I stay within my limits."

      I reckon that chemistry is one of the sweetest pleasures and can arise in different situations. I meet lots of new people at work - it can spark almost instantly or over a few looks across a room - then how delicious it is to speak to the person and see how it might play out, how far it will go. Or it might spark after some time together, after a measure of respect for the other's work has developed or we've been through some intense experiences.

      I love all that; it feels a very natural way of relating. There's always a hint of danger; though of course the sweetness for me is in resonance and not discord.

    4. Well said North ... you explained it well.

      Anon two I totally understand. I've been really givener lately at farmers markets. I want my dark room like pronto. ;)

    5. Superchick I feel your pain! (It's anon two here in disguise btw because Kat will spot me and feed me to crows). Oh boy, farmers markets! I'm full of admiration. I did a couple once. The last twelve hours go so slow! Dark room and Leo pronto! I've got slow death by govt bureaucracy here. I'm gonna need a dark padded room for about a week if I survive. My head hurts, my soul hurts, I hate it, I hate it. I thought I could ocd it but I hate it too much. Damn emotions. But at least I get to take a codeine now for the headache... :)

    6. I trust you know I am joking, Kat :) (Having real trouble with the discipline now)

    7. Awes, you rest up good now. It all falls into place. Leo and codeine will help I promise. : ) it will put the soul at ease.

      Things will develop nicely in the dark room. Stay there a little while and come back refreshed.

    8. Thanks Superchick :) (The codeine's working a treat already)

    9. You've got a great optimistic vibe :)

    10. Anon 2.

      Having made a point further down about being asked for common sense advice throughout adulthood, and not being a hypocrite, I can only say this, regarding your assertion:

      " (It's anon two here in disguise btw because Kat will spot me and feed me to crows)".

      It seems pertinent to point out that there will, I fear, be no need for any vigilante activities on my part. You have, it seems, already passed the point of no return in the consequences stakes, by, it appears, murdering the dwarf 'Calvinist'. Forensics experts are examining the rapidly disintegrating body found this afternoon, in your 'Dark Room', as I write. It is suggested that your best option is to co-operate fully with the Government agents during their investigation. They are trained to identify certain speech patterns pertaining to psychopathy, so I would be careful if I were you.
      On the matter of an insanity defense, or even a diminished responsibility plea; I would say the chances are slim. Your obviously manipulative attempt to suggest you have dissociative identity disorder, [previously termed 'multiple personality disorder'] and suggesting Anon 3 'did it' will, I'm afraid, be seen by the Court as a last ditch attempt to avoid culpability, guilt or remorse.

      The book will be thrown at you, Anon 2 and 3, and there will be no point sending out any flocks of crows as pickings by that point would be very slim.

      Furthermore, I strongly urge you to reconsider, should you decide to "need a dark padded room for about a week if I survive."

      One should always ask for a room with a window, and a nice view, when one is to become a guest of one's government for any length of time.

      hope this helps,
      an objective, pragmatic and utilitarian KAT

    11. Anon 2 & 3
      [Probably should add LOL 8-) in case you think I'm being serious].
      There's some very odd posts appearing around here nowadays.......


    12. Anons squared and cubedJune 5, 2016 at 6:34 AM

      Yeah, I was wondering what had happened to Calvinst too! fking lightweight... But it weren't us, guv, honest, I think it's some kind of dominoes effect... once Gumptiony's given up the ghost they drop like flies... This is where much neglected Fuck It All dwarf comes into his own, and just gets the effing job done before Calvinist, Idealist and Self-doubty can start making a fking meal of it again... (hopefully, anyway) (that was self-doubty) (in cahoots with lazy and rambly) (and THAT was Calvinist! not dead yet)

    13. Think the rapidly disintegrating corpse might have been Prudence.. oops

    14. Worldly and Idealist want to know if you think there's any chance of Clinton getting indicted?

    15. Feeling the Bern?????
      [Hmm. One notes the DID is getting worse......8-)]

      "Worldly and Idealist want to know if you think there's any chance of Clinton getting indicted"

      That would depend on how desperate GOP would be to ensure Trump gets into the White House, perhaps?
      I suspect the rest of the world hopes: not?
      Mind you, a confrontation between Clinton v Putin, or Trump v Putin would be interesting, in either case.


    16. feeling the pressureJune 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM

      The DID gets much worse when I'm under pressure. I just meant 'feeling the bern' a bit, like, you know. This kind of thing happens when the world is getting to me (bureacracy in this case)...for some reason I look to the world (uncharacteristically) for consolation, and in this case the fleeting fantasy of Bernie beating Clinton to the nomination. I still can't believe such a nice guy is actually running and doing as well as he is. I can't help rooting for him. Putin v Trump would be very interesting, but you know what worries me about that? (sorry, I just can't keep the feelings out of anything)... Would Putin hand over Snowden? That's what worries me! :) Dear, dear, I'm sorry, it's pathetic, I know. I wish they'd hurry up and indict her though, I can't bear her. I'm not always a Hitchens fan but I love this:

    17. 'feeling the bern'
      'feeling the pressure'
      Ahem. Now to the Serious Stuff.

      "Would Putin hand over Snowden?"

      I doubt it. It would be playing 'The Nice Guy Who Is Helpful'. Putin's motive for doing that would be....zilch. Unless they offered him the Head of Nato position, in a month of Sundays. So then he just might. But as no USA president would agree to that [hmmm; thinks: although, with Trump, one could imagine that....Oops 8-/] Snowden's probably safe. However, being paranoid as one should always be, it might pay to have an exit strategy that doesn't involve Siberia, LOL if one was Snowden...
      I appreciate Hilary Clinton because she has a 'constellation of traits'. They are useful when dealing with those with the traits too, like Putin.

      'OK, got that' is fine BTW.
      [still desperately trying to keep Anon 2 on track with the Government]. The 'A' in KAT stands for Altruistic, of course.


    18. Nope, fuck the government, I've been quite calvinistic enough for this month, and I'm more worried about Snowden now (the A in anon standing for autistic, of course - so if you were secretly hoping for an 'OK, Got that', I can't say I'd blame you and won't mind a bit if you just want to pretend you got one). Truth is, I think I'm winning now and reckon if I keep it shortish I'm still on target. Reason I'm worried about Snowden is, I got the impression that Putin rather enjoyed reminding Obama that the US didn't want an extradition treaty, vis a vis a bunch of Wanted Russians - on which Obama wouldn't budge, so Snowden got to stay. Trump would offer them up with glee... would Putin be tempted? Trump thinks Snowden deserves the death penalty (thankfully, unaware that his crime doesn't actually qualify, but still.. I just shudder at the thought of such a civilised chap being delivered up to a rabid moron, etc).

      I know Hillary has a constellation, but it's the wrong one for me! :) you know what I mean? She's not my type... She has none of Putin's subtlety or humour or cool... she seems like a cruder model altogether... I much prefer Bernie... I'd love to see if he could actually cut it... I'd have a flutter on it because he's got such a healthy sense of humour... and more importantly, he likes Snowden. I suppose I like them both for the same reason, in a way... have they got any idea what they're up against? It's plucky :) Ah, damn it, I just had another question pop to mind... No obligation to answer! Seriously. Only if you want to: Does Bill have traits?

    19. Anon 2

      Yep. Both do. Just at different levels.

      Gotta go; being very altruistic irl at present.

      Re Sanders. Now is not the time for the idealist. Now is the time for the psychopath. An idealist advising a psychopath - that is a Good Idea.

    20. Thanks :) Interesting. Am kind of with you on the idealism, really. (But these emotions, they just insist on feeling certain things about people... and mine just really strongly like the guy... I dunno; what to do with them, eh? And the likes and dislikes, incidentally, are much less easily strangled than dwarfs... one knows the dwarfs are full of shit, but the liking and disliking.. that more, kind of, IS one... wonder why. I'll stop doing it aloud though :) all best with the irl stuff!

    21. Hey Anon 2,

      I like letting myself feel whatever it is I happen to feel. Feelz feel problematic when we attach a desired outcome.

      But our selves are deeper than either the feelings or events that may or may not transpire.

      Classic quote from one Lola: "my thoughts are my private entertainment"

      Oh the pleasure when we can regard our feelings as simply cognitions, information, and not our selves, with everything hinging on a particular outcome.

      That's been a big learning for me from this whole shebang.

    22. Anon 2,

      "mine just really strongly like the guy.."

      I like his idealism and 'genuineness' too. But I think being president would eat him alive. Because there are insufficient worthwhile people in government who could/would give him backing, for him to have any effect at all. Perhaps Trump would break the status quo, it would be amusing to see if he could; Clinton would certainly seek to retain it.
      Anon 2 [and I mean this seriously] - consider emigrating.

      Enjoyed [LOL] your describing of all the dwarves, above, BTW. However, are you sure you 'have what it takes' to take on the government? Mind you, if 'Fuck It All' has the upper hand, you might just get away with it. 8-)
      I still suggest you flee north of the border though. 8-/

    23. What...Canada? Where the SJWs are made? It's fast becoming the humourless capital of the universe up there, isn't it? I can joke like this because I'm actually sat on the damp little island run by the public schoolboys, watching it all at a distance. I wish we could have Bernie ourselves when he's finished... he'd slot in nicely over here, and be more than a match for our lot, bunch of dicks that they are. Nothing very much ever happens; he could play basketball all day, and just be a kind of all-round exemplar and raiser of spirits, and maybe wind back the surveillance state at weekends, a database at a time... A kind of Grand Duchy of Fenwick for the 21st century is what we need, and Bernie's the man for the job. And Rand Paul can come along too, for balance. And the rest of the world can ignore us. (for a change) Ah, dear,dear...I'm sorry! It's how I get through the day, this sort of thing; dreaming up worlds run by Bernie Sanders... :) And procrastinator's making eleventh-hour mischief, as usual (You can see why I appreciated that one, quiet, day so much).

      Your unimpeachable first paragraph - pretty much word for word what Sober dwarf would say (sounds like a fantasy video game character that one) if he could ever get a word in - nevertheless managed to reminded me of the other bit of my real-life Bernie Sanders fantasy, that I'm loathe to let go before the bitter end - the dream team: Sanders-Warren! I'd so love to see that get an outing too. Just an outing, you know. Because it's all so ludicrously unlikely; it feels like a once-in-a-lifetime spectacle, a kind of tea-break from the inexorability of things; a glitch in the system. I know there's no one much else to speak of who'd back him up.. as I said, your summing up was unimpeachable.

      Second paragraph's even better :) I Know that I absolutely don't have what it takes! That's the fking problem: try telling it to Subversive and Closet revolutionary; they don't seem to give a bugger... which is all great as far as it goes, but they're a fat lot of use when Please Don't Hurt Me comes rushing into sight to make a fool us, I can tell you... (ah, getting the anarchic associate thing again*)

      Nope, you've absolutely nutshelled me there, I have to say. Fuck It All is our only hope. If I could only get him properly installed, the rest would fall into place nicely... I'm going to work on that :)


    24. Feeling the adrenal burnoutJune 7, 2016 at 9:36 PM

      Ah, I see it's been a grim night for the old fantasy life... Well, Fuck It All it is, then! :) probably just as well, the hope was getting a bit much. I don't enjoy hope, I have to say. It's a pain in the arse. But I felt obligated to root for him, see... wonder which one of the little bastards that was... Scruples or Romantic? Fuck em all, anyway. I've done my bit for Idealism this century. I can go back to being a sceptic now, much more energy-efficient. (concentrating hard on not thinking about indictments now)

    25. Hey North :)

      "Feelz feel problematic when we attach a desired outcome. "

      I can wholeheartedly agree now my dreams have safely bitten the dust :)

    26. Funny how the whole time the self-engrossed 'empath's been bemoaning the great personal inconvenience of it all, the psychopath's been too busy doing altruism! Well...just as well there's someone to do it, eh? :)

    27. Feeling the Truth,

      "Funny how the whole time the self-engrossed 'empath's been bemoaning the great personal inconvenience of it all, the psychopath's been too busy doing altruism!"

      There is very good reason why *my* human variant is better than *your* human variant, Anon 2. I say this with a smug and self-satisfied smirk, nevertheless - it's true 8-).

      I have been doing altruism, while you have been merely... 'feeling'. It was absolutely no contest. This is why my ilk rule corporations and governments and your ilk.....don't. LOL

      Regarding the public schoolboys region. I still advise: flee north over the border. With global warming, it'll soon become like the Med., up there. And they're still very keen on education and hospitals 'up there'.
      Or go west, across water. There may be rain, a *lot* of rain LOL, but they laugh a lot there, even amidst adversity. And they really, really, hate the government, across there. You'd fit in admirably 8-)


    28. Feeling the smugnessJune 8, 2016 at 9:38 AM

      OK, OK :) Got that

    29. "I have been doing altruism, while you have been merely... 'feeling'. "

      Merely feeling AND conscientiously documenting it all at great length and with meticulous attention to detail for the education and amusement of an otherwise sometimes bemused and oftentimes apt to be impatient nevertheless superior human variant, for purely altruistic reasons. (Vanity, Selfy, Contrary, Pompous, Sanctimonious, Wooleyes, Honest Guv, Procrastinator, Sychophant and Please Don't Hurt Me)

    30. "This is why my ilk rule corporations and governments and your ilk.....don't. LOL"

      All those corporations and governments known for their altruism, you mean? (brought to you by Fearless, Slightly Disingenuous and Please Don't Hurt Me)

    31. Feeling undignifiedJune 8, 2016 at 11:58 AM

      Can I take back the one before last?

    32. Keeps us off the streets though :)

    33. Feeling the deadlineJune 8, 2016 at 12:10 PM

      Thank fuck I'm not running a corporation...

    34. Feeling the fight or flight responseJune 8, 2016 at 12:29 PM

      West, across water, it is then, to the magical little island run by the little people, where I can take on the government another time, from a safe distance, and Soberdwarf can retire for good...

    35. Feeling the effects

      of that humour; LOL. Many times LOL. Yes, Soberdwarf would indeed be amongst like minded individuals.

      A note of defensiveness has been detected, regarding the documentation of feelings and purpose thereof? Yet another sign you are definitely recovered from your psychopathic interlude. LOL Me, I'd never feel defensive. Or even mildly explanatory. Just: 'whatever.' 8-)

      "All those corporations and governments known for their altruism, you mean?"

      Well, OK; there is the odd glitch here and there, regarding their altruism. Conceivably, quite a large glitch. One could even exaggerate and term it a hugely major glitch. No-one ever said that that ilk are perfect. Or even, particularly nice. Or helpful. Or even sharing and caring. Just...that they run governments and corporations. Hmph. LOL.

      Some, on the other hand, have been shown the error of those ways. There have been assurances that altruism is a way of getting the good stuff in life. Who cares for vast wealth and power, if you can have the good stuff. [Thinks. Puzzled frown. Actually, wealth and power *are* the good stuff....] Have those dratted shrinks been lying all this time? That Short Shrink had better have some damn good answers next week.......or it's Short Shrink that's gonna be feeling a flight response to the client's fight response.
      I'd say the dwarves are pretty safe, frankly; cause instrumental aggression at nasty entities only, is the new black.

    36. :) We're up all night here, feeling foolish for being so cavalier with Matters of Consequence and fighting amongst ourselves as to whose fault it was...*anarchic associative tick*
      (I'm fast becoming the Vegas of comedy songs)

    37. "Yes, Soberdwarf would indeed be amongst like minded individuals."

      Ah...that was actually just a cheap pun on 'sober', there, BUT - and this is a big enough BUT, I reckon, to redeem myself before the shame sticks - I totally second that misinterpretation myself, as I've long entertained the idea that they are surely some superior variant themselves...I haven't quite worked out yet whether they've fast-tracked evolution or somehow sidestepped entropy, but there's something funny going on, across there, and I'm on to it. Love the place. Indeed I don't think I'd have a dwarf problem at all if I were drinking in (no pun intended) that ambience all day long, instead of the ones I'm (yet again) whinging on about rather of altruisticing; the whole troupe would be redundant overnight..

      I'm currently in the irresistible-sleep phase, btw, of my how to not take on the government nor win perpetual-cycle, which means I might just suddenly st

    38. Feeling buoyed by false confidenceJune 9, 2016 at 7:56 PM

      Met my deadline btw :) Cunts. Let's see em deal with that

    39. Time for a song!

    40. Feelings anon, anon anon anonJune 9, 2016 at 9:35 PM

      "A note of defensiveness.."

      More like the Song that Never Ends... :) The only reason Defensive never made an appearance in person was he was he was too busy behind the curtain, orchestrating the whole fking thing... Jeez, I tell you what, if could nail that one... mmm, all roads lead back to Fuck It All, don't they. I'm just a lazy cunt really, see..(Calvinist)..I don't want to put the effort in... and I got a smidge hoist on the old realisation of what I'm up against (god this is getting undignified now).. no, to be fair (egodwarf) maybe more just the realisation that I was conceivably up against something after all; the other half of the realisation being that all these people I admired for their detachment had not necessarily had to work for it to quite the backbreaking extent I'd assumed... now, if that's not an excuse for little half-time breather I don't know what is... (Calvinist all the way, this one). Truth be told, I'm a bit sorry for myself :) (did you notice?) You know...tasting the possibilities, like that - how easy it could be - could have been all this time... to meet deadlines...fill in forms...put the bins out...all these years...beating myself up, when all along... they were a superior variant! ffs! Why did nobody tell me? Letting me fumble about like that imagining I was willfully irretrievable... Yep I feel cheated. Cheated out of the obscene wealth I could have amassed running corporations, and especially governments. Just cause I felt it, didn't mean it was there for everyone! So, I'm just having a little bit of a rest before I er... that's the other great thing about procrastination, see : such a good way to avoid failure! The tantalising possibility that you may just have succeeded, preserved in amber for eternity... Only kidding :) Just having five mins to reorientate; re-find one's sense of humour and so on. Lost it for a while really. Nothing like feeling sorry for oneself to fuck the sense of humour up the arse. dear, dear... oh, and that was the reply to this bit as well:

      "Yet another sign you are definitely recovered from your psychopathic interlude"

      Yep. Couldn't be further from! (Brought to you by Calvinist, Poor Me, Too Busy Feeling to be Altruistic and as, as ever, Please Don't Hurt Me, I'll be Funnier Next Time)(Honest Guv)

    41. Version 2: 'Whatever'

    42. Anon 2,

      I really enjoy your humour. And your writing style. Very appreciated.
      And 'Whatever' is exactly the point, at the moment. 8-)
      Being not quite normal isn't that wonderful, really, Just different. I can put out the bins, don't fill in forms cause I hate them, and actually have about as much interest in obscene wealth as a slug. I think you've got to stop with the Please Don't Hurt Me stuff though 8-/. At the moment it's a bit of a sore point. [nothing to do with you]. I've been trying to work out how not to hurt people [except when I actually want to - well, that's progress, isn't it? Thinks: probably shouldn't LOL at this point though].
      The way I write stuff - well, is it that different? And I walked into a friend's place to help them move stuff, they said I looked like I was going to have a go with an ax - so they were being careful! [I was feeling a bit irritated, not even very much BTW, not by them].
      I think I'd like you to explain if you can, what is it about that mindset, that you experienced, that anyone 'empathic' might find frightening. What exactly would be the problem?
      An enquiring mind would like to know 8-/

      May well be working hard over the next three days, but will stop in re a response.

    43. The offending dwarf will be put out to pasture at once :) My apologies for the faux pas. It's one of my anti-talents, that.

      That's an interesting one and I will think on't. My firsts thought are that it's (and this a bit obvious but I think crucial) it's an emotional-instinctive response much more than a rational or intellectual one, that fear thing. I think it's to do with sensing the Big Difference - not empathic/non-empathic, emotional/non-emotional, so much as the one beyond it... contained/not-contained, limited/not-limited - anything is possible (speaking from 'empath' perspective now): you don't know this environment, you don't control it, all bets are off, the bubble has burst, the rules don't apply, etc. But as a sense, an instinct, not intellectual observation - which is why it's hard to do anything about/with. It's just fear. It's very primal. To escape it, you'd need the same condition yourself, kinda thing. It's the dwarfs again, there's very little choice about it. You can still decide how to act, etc (if you can control that fear, or whatever) but you're still carrying it, it's still acting inwardly and/or will keep happening). If this is sounding doom and gloom, btw, it shouldn't be - it's not meant to be - I'm just working through it, but haven't finished, and I'm necessarily 'exaggerating' to try and isolate/identify it. It's also very subjective, I'm just trying to recall my own experiences of both sides of it. The other thing that occurs to me, coming back to your example, is that anyone with as uncluttered/un-woolied an internal state as that will have a concentrated/condensed effect or force compared to the pretty wooly/jumbled norm - so mild irritation can exude something more like the force of your average 'positively angry', perhaps. Which isn't saying you necessarily look/appear positively angry, just that you'll be emanating a more tangible 'power' - hardness, maybe - which is sensed (and internally responded to, emotionally) more than judged/deduced. Hope that made some sense. I'll mull it in the dark room and see if anything crystallises... :) I think humour's a most useful/potent thing though; a life saver... I'll go mull it all :)

    44. PS NB The dwarf whose name shall not be mentioned was strictly unfortunate, btw - I was merely and exclusively parodying myself there, his being my constant companion, as it were - you haven't been even faintly 'hurtful' at any point - just incase you were wondering. Not a bit. Wouldn't be joking at great length about it if you had, I'm quite sure. :)

      I sympathise with the predicament too - well, empathise, I guess - because I've a got, or anti-talent, of hurting people unintentioanlly. (well, either that or a paranoia about, one of the two)

    45. That should have said 'I've got a knack, or anti-talent' for it too

    46. It's the intensity...can you 'blur' your intensity? (ie when you're feeling mildly irritated but don't want anyone to be alarmed)

    47. What would be an example, or equivalent example, f hurting someone unintentionally, in your experience?

    48. Also - how much a problem was it for the friend who was 'being careful'; how extreme? Did they mind? Is it out the ordinary, for them, or more 'all in a day's being friends with you'? (no obligation - just questions coming up while mulling. I find myself comparing to familiar situations /relationships, then wondering if they apply, etc etc)

      I like your writing style, btw, and your thoughts/observations. It's a style I'm fairly used to and can/do appreciate and enjoy. But that itself is not everyone's cup of tea. I know people who are criticised/resented for similar (and have been myself at times). What I mean is, I think there's a big dollop of can't please them all, and never will, in there too. I think it's great to have options, great to sus out how to 'manage' oneself, increase one's options - really great, best thing there is, maybe - but I think it always needs to be balanced with an amount of fuck it all too :) The humourous fuck it all being the best of the bunch, every time... Just to balance the burden of giving a fuck; keep it from dumping on my mood or knotting me up.

      Still mulling the other

    49. Your style is forthright. It's not sneaky. It's 'impatient', but I like that, and I find it funny. A lot of it's down to taste, I think, and what people are looking for. You probably don't/can't guess at how incredibly sensitive/vulnerable emotions render people, or that they'll react as they do automatically, pretty much, without 'choosing' to - emotions are very fast, like quicksilver, and turn someone inside out in an jiffy, totally destabilise them. You probably have no idea the impact that forthrightness or uncomfortable honesty can have, when delivered at an inopportune moment, when the resources are not free to deal with it or learn from it, or whatever (in a way they might be capable of another time, or at a slower pace). They don't know that you can't know that, and THAT is the source of the hurt - it's not that they're hurt because you think/see x y z about them - it's that you must have intended to hurt them - that's the hurtful bit - because that 'means' you don't like them. May be way off here, I'm talking only for myself. I've been hurt, 99 times out a hundred, by the thought they wanted to hurt me, or wanted to screw me up (in the way I was experiencing it)- had I been aware of certain understanding gaps, I'd never have taken offence at the original whatever-it-was because it wouldn't have been worth it; it's have been more than worth it to overlook stuff. But I didn't guess that - I'd assumed already that 'all was lost' on that score and would just hit back... But it's also harder to admit you're hurt, because of the caring and vulnerability it implies, than it is to focus on and contest the details of whatever was said/done, which becomes a something to take cover behind, and by which to summon an protective/therapeutic counterattack. It feels much better and safer being angry than being vulnerable and wounded; better to focus on someone's behaviour than the unfaceable implication: that they must really not like you, that you're unlikable, and that you're sad because you actually liked them and you've 'lost' them and there's nothing you can do about that because it's out of your hands. Again, I'm talking very subjectively, as a particularly 'feeling' case, but that I've got. If the original wound was misunderstood it's actually all a bit of an unnecessary 'tragedy' or farce, even - but it revolves all the same; that's the way it tends to play out.

      I don't know whether by just better understanding the peculiar experience of the people you're dealing with might enable the kind of adjustment, in the moment - that give you the results you want - by enabling a foresight/insight and reason for momentary pause, perhaps... I don't know - this might just not apply... I'm essentially describing what I've tried to get better at from the other side of the fence, when it comes to reacting in ways that will lead us down this unwanted route (with some, but not all that great success, yet - it's fking hard to change yourself emotionally, I know that). As I said, my experience your side of the fence was regrettably too brief to have entailed any 'people' stuff, at all really; it was purely an experience of myself. But I can easily imagine my sensitivity would have gone out the window - even though I fully knew all the fking rules. I suspect, thinking about it now, that finding ways to control myself, or intice/interest myself in doing so, would have been 99% of the battle. But I don't know.. unqualified to say!

      I hope that had something to offer and apologies if just a lot of baffling waffle :) Feel free to pin me down to any specifics you want to ask.

    50. PS and you ARE clever and funny. There's humour and there's humour. And there's a lot of bullshit.

    51. Anon 2 [no more with feeling?]

      I'll start at the bottom and work up 8-/. There's a lot here to think about. None of it is waffle and none of is baffling. It makes sense.
      A simple question first though. Why do people assume that if you hurt them that means you don't like them? They aren’t automatically linked, surely.
      It's an action, to hurt. A signal. Targeted at someone's assumptions, maybe. Nothing to do with liking. Could be retaliation for hurt feelings; or a bad day, or they’re ill?.
      I mean here you go. Psychopathic. Fleeting feelings. Take little notice of. Calm. Still. Watching. Someone aims their 'feelings' towards that. You notice which feelings they are. You adjust, or not. You send another signal back. Nice, or nasty. It's just traffic. None of it 'connects'. To what? Sometimes, if the prod is huge enough, you feel rage. It gets stopped. Put aside. Maybe later? Maybe let it go. But rage is so rare, if you have good self-control, it's like a hot day in winter.
      So where is the 'like' part? There are many other actions a person may or may not produce, in the way of feelings, or behaviour. That determines liking. I never judge on first acquaintance. You have to look. Observe how someone behaves. Towards you, towards others [that's very instructive]. Then you judge the value of that person. Whether they're worth liking. Not at first glance. Ever.

      "You probably have no idea the impact that forthrightness or uncomfortable honesty can have, when delivered at an inopportune moment,"

      I know exactly what it does. I've observed the effects many times. Always works. Better than anything else. People hate the truth about themselves. Unless you really are psychopathic. Then it's just a case of 'whatever'. It's when someone does it, and what for, that's the useful thing to observe.
      Yep. I've just read your stuff on likeability, and having lost, etc. It really matters to you then, that stuff. No way of disengaging the action from the 'I'm unlikeable' impulse straight after? And, so what? You're unlikeable. To that person. Who you might have chosen as not being worth liking anyway. Does it matter as much, in that case BTW? are you saying you pay attention as to other people's opinions of you, every last one of them? What if they're full of shit? 8-) Do you override those messages at all? How do you decide whose opinion is worth noting? Irl it's easy to size up people, there are many things to notice, here there's just the wording choices.

      "how much a problem was it for the friend who was 'being careful'; how extreme? Did they mind?"

      Well, they were worried, enough to mention it after when they thought I'd 'calmed down'. But the thing was, I was only mildly irritated. They said I looked stormy. I thought I was frowning mildly. I mean, here I am thinking, well, nowadays, anger management: excellent, instrumental aggression: minimal - and a friend thinks I'm thinking of axes when I'm mildly irritated! It's not a good look, Anon 2.

      [1 of 2]

    52. "Is it out the ordinary, for them, or more 'all in a day's being friends with you'?"

      That friend knows about 'traits', so maybe they were getting melodramatic? I actually get irritated by all that. Assumptions about ‘how it’s supposed to be’. You just climb out of a square peg, to get pushed into a triangle, when in fact you’re a circle.

      "It's just fear. It's very primal."
      Well there's a problem right there. Fear, on the very few occasions, is a tiny, mild flutter of anticipation, really. It's quite pleasant. It means something exciting is going to happen. So pretty difficult to gauge other people's. Something stronger is disgust, I realised a while ago. Disgust at other people's 'bad behaviour' towards each other. Surprised the hell out of me. Some 'thing' I'd felt for years, ended up being disgust. Short Shrink was relieved. An iternal ‘check’, at last. Not around bullies though. Makes altruism easy; comes in very handy. In fact it guarantees it. You can be as nasty as you like, no fear involved – to nasty people. And you can tell who those are. A whistleblower profile to a T. Failsafe. LOL

      "is that anyone with as uncluttered/un-woolied an internal state as that will have a concentrated/condensed effect or force compared to the pretty woolly/jumbled norm"

      Short Shrink keeps mentioning they never know 'who will walk through the door', so you could be right there. Again, that was surprising, cause the huge majority of the time I'm pretty calm and still. And cheerful. I laugh a lot. Mostly at how absurd life is. 8-)
      There is indeed a lot of bullshit. But manure is a very useful composting material, Anon 2. It makes things grow very well. LOL.

      probably haven't covered it all, I'll stop for a bit, KAT.
      [2 of 2]

    53. [no more with feeling?]

      Always - just prioritising / focusing :)

      "A simple question first though. Why do people assume that if you hurt them that means you don't like them? They aren’t automatically linked, surely."

      Only in the emotional world :) But that's the one we're at the mercy of (to whatever degree) and its being irrational doesn't disappear it. The why is a tricky one (which I like, but means I need to think about) because I don't know the bloody answer offhand (which annoys me :)!

      I've got to stress that I don't know if I'm talking for anyone else here... it's just something I've noticed about myself and chalked up. But never properly dissected yet. I've wondered whether, half the time, when I am 'appalled' by some 'appalling' behaviour on someone's part, I'm actually just personally hurt, and that because they've appeared not to value me, since...they were clearly not trying to impress me, or anything, and were happy to take the risk of alienating me (or whatever) or jeopardising our 'harmoniousness', ergo they clearly cannot like me that much :)* Something like that? Anyway, that's an emotional thought-process, there. It's often worst-fears driven, I think it's safe to say, so it is inherently illogical. Emotions have their own 'logic' - which, unfortunately, IS very compelling/convincing when you're in that kind of heightened emotional state, which precludes logical capacity; they're a bit mutually exclusive, with the emotional side taking precedence when it's aroused (difficult to stop that happening). It's very 'multi-mind', being emotional (in my experience). This is why I like the sensory-deprivation of the dark room - just trying to give Soberdwarf a turn; touch base without all the clamour and rollercoastery stuff. The logical and/or calm mind is there underneath. Emotions are like wind chimes; the slightest f'king breeze...

      You'll have noticed I've digressed :) You'll probably get three pages on this question alone :)

      But I'll think about it better first. It's 6am public schoolboy time so I'll break. There was something that made laugh out loud though, which I want to find first.....

      I think it was that, because it just did it again:

      "It's not a good look, Anon 2."


      This is fascinating stuff, btw - as useful to me as (hopefully) to you. And I'm looking forward to getting stuck into some of those challenges...


      *It's also hypocritical, in my case, because I don't refer to occasions on which I've done the same and taken a risk or been harsh - but I think the drive behind that is more paranoia/fearing the worst than 'not wanting to be fair' or anything like that. It's about as 'innocent' as it can be, in that it happens because of blind spots and a defensiveness or vulnerability which puts you in an immature state - you're a 'victim' of it, you don't logically choose it; it happens to you, rather than you doing it. It's a bastard.

    54. Feeling too many dwarfs at onceJune 11, 2016 at 8:42 AM

      Right, no joke - going to pieces here. So much dwarf activity has been set off by the present exercise that, with a bit of luck, you're going to witness the rapid discomposition of an emotional personality before you're eyes without having to do a thing.

      The dwarfs are up in arms. They've wheeled out What the Fuck do you Think you're Doing dwarf and he's giving me merry hell. And it's getting worse by the second, because I'm into no-win territory now, dwarfs are going to get offended, whatever one does, past this point. Our only hope is Fuck It All, wherever the fuck he's got to. I'll plough on. (There are a couple that love it by the way, but they're all embroiled in punch-ups with the uppity buggers, adding to the clamour).

      Before I try to elucidate (justify) the melodramatic (self-indulgent) nature of the opening - and for that matter, get back to answering the fking questions, please god - I just want to mention a thing that occurred to me overnight that I think makes quite a neat little visual-aid-equivalent for my This Is What It's Like presentation (Pleased with Myself dwarf). What you're going to be seeing, incidentally, until such time a time that Fuck It All sees fit to rescue us, is a marked rise in desperate ego-boosting measures in response to the rise in threat levels being felt in that camp.

      I feel like I've gone off deep end here - have you got any idea what I'm going on about?

      (See what I mean?)

      Where was I? Ah yes - my visual-aid-equivalent! Here it is. The guy in Clockwork Orange. The conditioning bit. (Haunts me, that). What happens to him when he hears the music. THAT's what it's like :) (so pleased with myself). Except that life is FULL of pieces of music that will occasion some or other crippling, compromising, response. It's like fking iTunes over this side of the fence. I'm conspicuously avoiding the word Triggering, here, incidentally, on account of the anarchic-associative response it predictably...Occasions...namely, reminding me of SWJs at a time when I've quite enough on my plate already thank you. Cunts. (See - didn't work - it's like a fucking minefield Out There, honestly. Or, should I say, In Here).

      Incidentally, the SJW phenomenon's giving the rest of us lot a really bad name with their fucking Triggering horseshit (ooof). The fact it's a thinly veiled excuse for fascism doesn't stop them putting the hidden (?) agenda back three years.

      Do you see how I'm coming apart at the seams? Everything's exaggerated now, because the emotional heat's been turned up on us. I'm over-reacting left, right and centre, just in an attempt to burn off some of the static; my emergency cooling system. With a bit of luck we'll burn ourselves out soon and we can go back to being mellow.

    55. (...can I say that?) (which is a good example, incidentally, of how things snowball for me the moment I get self-conscious)

      So, before I get back to answering the goddam questions (ffs) I'll try and explain why I'm going to pieces on you. There are so many dwarves involved in this I'll just try to pick out the main protagonists or we'll be here all day (joke). Vanity, big time: we think we're making a fool of ourselves. What do we think we're doing... we're talking, since last night, like we're on the fking Oprah Winfrey show (ooof..sorry - triggered! ooof,and again..) to - get this - of all people - a psychopath! Cog diss, big time. The person most likely of all to throw up on you. They're not going to like you for long if you carry on this. And it's all about being liked, c'mon. Shape up. Get off the emotional stuff and talk about something interesting or funny, pronto. That's what I'm getting, about once a minute. And then it's: if anyone with emotions is reading this, mind, they're not going to like you either. Most of them are no way as melodramatic as you; they don't you speaking for them, you're making a laughing stock of the emotional world (Vanity, Grandiosity, and PDHM). Get off the emotional stuff and talk about something interesting or funny, pronto. Dignity (shred of): Why are we attempting to justify emotional thought processes? They're a pain in the fking arse, we ALL know that. We spend our life trying to distact ourselves with something interesting or funny and suddenly you plunge us into an orgy of apologism. You know it makes us uncomfortable - what the fuck are you doing? Talk about something interesting or funny, pronto. Enough with the rationlising, it's a dead duck, you're making a fool of us. And you know what'll happen then. Nobody's gonna like you.

      Soberdwarf, of course agrees with you, word for word: So nobody's going to like you. And, so what? You're unlikeable. Have a fag and think about something funny or interesting. We'll all be dead in a hundred years (or is probably about 130 now) and not a moment too soon! Just do what you can don't worry about it. Daft bint.

    56. Feeling a lot better actuallyJune 11, 2016 at 8:51 AM

      Okay, something did the trick (Soberdwarf but I'm not admitting that for some preverse reason I'll not examine) (or we'll be here all day) (hoho).

      So I'm going to take a little break and then pick it up with the questions :)

    57. "A simple question first though. Why do people assume that if you hurt them that means you don't like them? They aren’t automatically linked, surely."

      So, what I've hopefully just been demonstrating is that there's automatically linked and there's automatically linked. The one we're talking about is nothing to do with rigour and everything to do with agility. If there's one thing the emotional mind is good it, it's automatically linking just about anything to just about anything else, according to the preferences, biases, preoccupations, and especially fears, of the VICTIM. (did I mention that we're victims yet?)

      I ought again to stress that I'm not purporting to talk for anyone but myself (or they won't like me etc) - I'm using 'we' when 'I' would be just too cringey to use, but I mean 'I' really.

      We're victims like Alex is a victim - he doesn't choose to react like that; it happens to him. Okay, there's more scope for thinking your way out of emotional traps (I'll get to that, I remember you asking it) but it's sufficiently difficult that in practice what's happening, ninety percent of the time, is a lot more like Alex's predicament.

    58. Song of the day

    59. Do you know what else? Self-doubty keep whispering that I don't know what I'm on about, that I'm getting ahead of myself a bit. And here's the rub: Soberdwarf's saying nothing. It might well be that I'm getting ahead of myself a bit, so take me with a pinch of salt. But you're still getting a picture of the kind of muddle one can get oneself into this side of the fence, so all is not lost. I'll flesh out the doubt, just for the hell of it. No, I won't, it's too difficult... I'll let it take better shape in its own time and when it's coherent I'll offer it up. It could well be that I'm just tired and hungry, and that's the other difficulty: the cruder dwarfs can get out of hand a lot easier when energy's low. All the trouble-makers have a field day then... hey that's probably the same for you, is it? Impatience, anger...more prone when tired and hungry (or whatever)? Back when re-energised :)

    60. Feeling a moment of clarityJune 11, 2016 at 12:01 PM

      "A simple question first though. Why do people assume that if you hurt them that means you don't like them?"

      Do you know would have been a lot simpler, and probably truer, to have said: because it feels like that. :) It does. So, in a sense, it becomes the starting point. The assumption has less been made than delivered as part of the blow. You already have it. So to escape it, you have to think yourself out of it, logically. But that's least likely to happen when your floundering about in the emotional soup of misery that tends to follow being hurt by someone you like. You're still reeling from the initial avalanche for quite some time. Takes a while to regain any stability, let alone enough to think objectively. So the odds are stacked against. You're much more likely, in an emotional condition, to go the opposite way and start wondering how long they didn't like you for and how it was that you never noticed before, or whatever :)

      I can imagine how ludicrous this sounds to you because I'm remembering that day and how opposite it was in every way. Nothing was happening TO me. I was doing ALL the thinking. Nothing was happening unless I did it. No 'wandering' thoughts, no associative ticks, nothing ambushing me whatsoever. Just the cool calm space whic I could fill/use or not. I remember distinctly that when I posed those million-dollar questions to my mind, and got back the answer like I'd just put a coin in a vending-machine, that I'd had to DO the question, and it was a slightly novel experience. Normally this stuff is just happening, almost apart from you - you're experiencing it rather than doing it. That day I was doing it. I was totally in control. Staggering difference. So, in a sense, your question is based on an assumption :) That our minds are working more like yours than they do.

    61. The reality, especially following an emotional blow, is much more like your fictional interview with the consultant psychiatrist: Up, down, sideways :)

    62. "I mean here you go. Psychopathic. Fleeting feelings. Take little notice of. Calm. Still. Watching. Someone aims their 'feelings' towards that. You notice which feelings they are. You adjust, or not. You send another signal back. Nice, or nasty. It's just traffic. None of it 'connects'. To what? Sometimes, if the prod is huge enough, you feel rage. It gets stopped. Put aside. Maybe later? Maybe let it go. But rage is so rare, if you have good self-control, it's like a hot day in winter.
      So where is the 'like' part? There are many other actions a person may or may not produce, in the way of feelings, or behaviour. That determines liking. I never judge on first acquaintance. You have to look. Observe how someone behaves. Towards you, towards others [that's very instructive]. Then you judge the value of that person. Whether they're worth liking. Not at first glance. Ever."

      This is fascinating stuff. Very appreciated. Very new to me, really, because I have enough eexperience to 'imagine' all that as I'm reading it - just about - but could never have imagined it on my own because I didn't experience it myself. So absolutely fascinating. Thank you. Brilliantly described too.

    63. Feeling like death on legsJune 11, 2016 at 1:29 PM

      I'm so exhausted I daren't go on because I'll be talking (and thinking) shite. Back as soon as recovered though. Dark room time. Thanks again. :)

    64. I just re-read my nutsy first two posts today. Got to apologise for that, I hope it wasn't too incoherent. Just ignore it if it was - don't try to make sense of it! I was genuinely having a meltdown of sorts. I realise I'm very ill at ease with emotionality. I love lampooning it. I spend my time trying to avoid or escape it. I'm uncomfortable with other people talking emotionally (with exceptions- when it's genuine/not indulgent I'm not). Irl I act very opposite; quite matter of fact. I suddenly found myself deeply uncomfortable, and embarrassed, about trying to be a spokesperson for emotions! :) I was totally out of my comfort zone there. I will try to just be descriptive and factual (or funny) and not get so much into the part next time. Sorry again if it was confusing at all. dear dear. Dark room again!

    65. Feeling as little as possibleJune 12, 2016 at 6:54 AM

      "Yep. I've just read your stuff on likeability, and having lost, etc. It really matters to you then, that stuff. No way of disengaging the action from the 'I'm unlikeable' impulse straight after? And, so what? You're unlikeable. To that person. Who you might have chosen as not being worth liking anyway. Does it matter as much, in that case BTW? are you saying you pay attention as to other people's opinions of you, every last one of them? What if they're full of shit? 8-) Do you override those messages at all? How do you decide whose opinion is worth noting? Irl it's easy to size up people, there are many things to notice, here there's just the wording choices. "

      "Yep. I've just read your stuff on likeability, and having lost, etc. It really matters to you then, that stuff."

      Yep. Plays a big part in 'emotional existence'. It's just there, as it were. It's not just 'being liked' either - I played that up, because I've suspected it to be much higher in the mix than people think; pet-working-hypothesis. Simple affection-attachment is a thing too. Only since my blank day have I really thought that; I used to like to think everything was 'chooseable' but that 'lost my bonds' thing made it impossible. I used to think 'bonds' was a bullshit concept actually, but 'bonds' was exactly how it appeared that day, no quibbling over the word or anything: it had appeared as if there'd formerly been an almost semi-physical connection - an actual being connected, both to certain people ('closest' family members, those I had closest 'understanding' with, specifically, the prospect of 'acting' with whom seemed least natural),and also to 'that world', which I was distinctly outside of. I remember describing it retrospectively in email as having lost my 'position'/ coordinates in relation to the rest of the world, as if I'd had an actual place in it determined by all these connections, and had compared it to Billy Pilgrim's becoming 'unstuck in time'. So now I have to think the 'emotional bonds' thing is a very real part of that world somehow. It's funny that it was obvious out and not at all once back in - it's a bit 'invisible', when you're in it, like the air you breathe, or an invisible assumption. So now I just know that it's something...and something which is very fundamental to that whole world (this world? funny one..). It's not even, quite, that "it matters"'s just there, part of the version of existence you're inhabiting - inescapable, I think, to some degree - I think one can effect degree, probably, within limits (in 'normal living' in that mode).

    66. So it's almost totally invisible, until something happens - a breach/severance occurs in this 'emotional network/structure' that you are IN, and then it doesn't become obvious for what it is - the way I saw it from outside - it causes a huge effect, an emotional 'trauma', like the rug's been yanked out from under your emotional self and its stability. It always takes you (personally speaking) by surprise; the size of the impact/painfulness, your retrospectively-evident vulnerability and dependency is an unpleasant and disconcerting/destabilising shock/reality-check-style. In between these periodic 'traumas' we like and tend to 'forget' - instinctively, really - and resume the pleasanter illusion of being less vulnerable, more in control and self-determined, self-directed, 'self' anything. I think people are working very hard at maintaining that illusion and cultivating pleasant bubbles within which to have some plain-sailing for a time. It's really like being a helpless infant, playing make-believe, indulging in the illusion/fantasy of 'being on track', knowing what it's/you're about - basically anything but being much more vulnerable than is convenient - half the time to 'keep up with' the ones who are doing it more convincingly (or perhaps the psychopaths). And then a psychopath comes along and points out the emperor has no clothes on and it all comes crashing down :). IF the psychopath is also someone you were emotionally fond of and attached to - and likely derived an amount of false confidence from - you get a pretty potent combo of disasters all at once - too much, too fast, everything goes haywire at once, the whole fking lot comes apart. I'd say the greater that emotional component the more the damage (exponentially) because emotions themselves are (can be) so crude/heavy-handed (up,down,sideways) and all-consuming when they really unleash. That's why I don't like going into them really - it feels like encouraging them (and I think is). They feed on themselves.

      [2 of god knows how many][and no obligation if it's gets boring :)]

    67. Feeling as little as possibleJune 12, 2016 at 8:31 AM

      "No way of disengaging the action from the 'I'm unlikeable' impulse straight after?"

      This is where I have to abandon my simplistic version. The reason I thought the simplistic version worthwhile and relevant is because in practice that's what you're gong to encounter/ be dealing with almost all of the time.'ve got me, now, as it were. Yes, it is possible. It's just very very difficult. It's a subtle business. It's like a knack; like riding a bike, or swimming. As elusive/hard to describe *how* it works /what you're doing (though not 'mysterious' to do, as it were). It's more of a 'touch' than a method. But, alas, not like riding a bike or swimming in that once you've got them you don't lose it. You do lose this one. You have to re-find it anew - like wandering about in the general area until you stumble on it/hit upon it, again. Then you have to try and keep hold of it, by doing it. You keep doing it, you keep hold of it. You fuck up, you lose it again. It's not something you can do 'selectively', really, though - it's an approach to life, really (because it's that central to your functioning) so you can't orgy on a soap opera one minute and detach from an insult the next; they're two sides of the same coin.

      But for that to be the way in which (I'm answering that) it's possible, it would also have to be the case that you were pretty much living like this when the event occurs. Then you could detach immediately, because that's how you're living. But I think by definition, if you were living that way, fairly proficiently, you wouldn't be quite so attached in quite the same ways to leave you quite so vulnerable to the blow. You only 'relatively' care, you're not fully surrendered to any care, because you've got another touchstone - of nothing, stillness, calm. Also, if you were living like that, you'd be unlikely not to see it coming (at all), by definition, or at the very least you'd never be oblivious to its possibility on the horizon (generally,as a part of life). It is possible to live 'aware', with emotions that are kept in check and in their place. But kept in check impeccably, you can't let it slip or you're toast again in no time - and then you , effectively, 'forget' again.

      I've just undermined the 'victim' argument somewhat, but want to stress how hard it is - ie how unlikely it is to be going on at any given place or time - and how tyrannical emotions are when they're on top of someone. The word victim applies then (I think). And if someone's never stumbled across this they wouldn't suspect its existence.

    68. Funnily (or perhaps not unsurprisingly), I've found that thing/skill/knack following acute or unmanageable emotion, at times. At other times I've re-found it via the 'dark room' method, just stopping the emotional bullshit in your head for long enough (but which takes some patience, perseverance, discipline) to click into it again.

      In 'normal' living modes, though, it would be nigh-on impossible to disengage the action from the 'unlikeable' impulse (and the rest of the calamitous impulse-bundle) because if you're wired for enduring, as opposed to fleeting, emotions (like me) they have to play out - once they've engaged/ been set off they take a long time to 'complete' - it's like a slow-motion (as well as stronger) version of yours (or maybe like your emotional-weeks experience). It's bit like an earthquake, with shockwaves playing out at their own pace. Emotions can only be stopped altogether, in my experience, when caught in the instant, as they arise - the first snowflake of the blizzard - and it is massively satisfying to be doing that (for me, obviously). But you kind of have to be waiting for it. The 'knack', or part of it, for me is in being positioned at just the right balance, or close enough - maybe it's 'right next to the line' - that both engagement and disengagement are within close enough reach to do both properly (enough). Because I have to 'engage' with people 'for real' too, or I wouldn't bother at all. So there's a sweet spot, anyway, where you can do that. For a while, and then fking lose it again :) Usually when some clamity or tempatation sucks you in, and you let yourself drift downstream again (at which point you're a 'victim' again, in the sense of no match for your own emotions or whatever's coming).

      "Disengage" is exactly the right word too - that's the way to do it. It's nothing to do with 'suppression'. When I was most recently doing it, kept it up for about a month (it's like riding a bike and falling, is what it is) I 'saw' or felt it as just pulling the plug on the energy the emotion needed, like instantly deflating a tyre, letting the pressure out. It was great when I got proficient at it, actually really easy then, like riding a bike. Just denying it the energy; resuming 'neutral', very simply.

    69. "or perhaps not unsurprisingly"

      only the one negative intended :)

    70. Want to apologise about this, btw, which was thoughtless:

      "we're talking, since last night, like we're on the fking Oprah Winfrey show (ooof..sorry - triggered! ooof,and again..) to - get this - of all people - a psychopath! Cog diss, big time. The person most likely of all to throw up on you."

      ...particluarly after the thing you said about stereotypes (that I totally understand). Its genesis was actually less to do with the stereotype than an experience of nauseating/seriously not impressing a psychopath, once, trying to explain matters emotional,and my brain had dug up and latched on to it overnight and I woke up with that paranoia/fear about it. That's a good example, actually, of how emotiona can eclipse evidence to the contrary. Emotions are just louder than everything else, that's the problem - they drown it all out. I hate them because I'm just less intelligent with them, hands down (lot less; idiotic). So, sorry about that - careless!


    72. "And, so what? You're unlikeable. To that person. Who you might have chosen as not being worth liking anyway. Does it matter as much, in that case BTW? are you saying you pay attention as to other people's opinions of you, every last one of them? What if they're full of shit? 8-) Do you override those messages at all? How do you decide whose opinion is worth noting? Irl it's easy to size up people, there are many things to notice, here there's just the wording choices. "

      "Does it matter as much, in that case BTW?"

      No - there is definitely an hierarchy of mattering :)

      But I think our assessments of people are a lot woolier than yours. Even if they're spot on (these things tend to be 'felt' in part, too) they have a more elusive, intangible quality, I think, than your assessments - totally different character. Because everything takes place within this 'emotional atmosphere' (undoubtedly differing between people, but to some degree) rather than the 'cold light of day' non-atmosphere of your world (as I experienced it). That's why we do so much musing and wondering; it's hard to discern, pin down, penterate, through this 'atmosphere'. (I think)

      So there is a hierarchy of mattering, but knowing always is another matter. Where there's room for doubt, the mattering tends to win (a bit).

      "are you saying you pay attention as to other people's opinions of you, every last one of them?"

      This is the other thing I wanted to say - just reminded me... There's not just the one thing going on. There are lots of levels, layers on top of one other - a hierarchy of dwarves, perhaps, with Soberdwarf on top - he's the mind, really - and and then tiers of all these other characters right down to Please Like Me, who's always looking for his next meal, and all the most childish ones. So it makes for a funny compound experience, a lot of contradiction, getting pulled this way and that, and poor old Soberdwarf despairing and cringing his way through it all. It really is 'multimind' stuff. So we don't have your clarity, or when we do, it's temporary, always. It's always in flux.

      So to answer the question: I'd say there's a dwarf near the bottom who'd respond to any positive attention and any negative attention as standard - that's his nutrient. Positive attention's like money in the bank; negative attention's like losing it (the currency's confidence- or false confidence).

      Now Soberdwarf doesn't rate that stuff, he doesn't buy it, he's knows it's bullshit, or low-hanging fruit, perfectly well - he doesn't 'approve'. But then someone says to you that a friend of someone's friend was really impressed with x y z thing you did and you feel extra confident for the rest of the day, or probably a few... it's withering stuff :) Only solution is sense of humour, I think, with that cruder, more pathetic stuff. Not caring (when you can get it) :)

      It's not so much 'paying attention' in the clear way that you would, in an active, definite way - this world is more like the stuff is all floating around, coming and going, and you're the recipient of various stimuli, and this and that, and they all have their corrsponding effects. It's very much a 'receiving end' experience, generally, no a 'doing' one like I experienced that day.

    73. And then if you're really childish and indignified, like I am, you hear about some compliment or other and, if it's a bit of a slow day, you'll indulge in a bit of recalling it to re-invoke the nice money-in-the-bank feeling, or the nice swimmy feeling, as a lazy distraction from the grimness or the friend of a friend's minor slight you just heard about, which punctured your false confidence slightly, or whatever. That's when you really sell Soberdwarf down the river. It seems innocent enough at the time (and indeed isn't a huge deal) but it's a slippery slope. Before you know it you've become a compliment junkie spending half your time with your head in the swimmy feeling or admiring yourself in the compliment mirror. (Enter Calvinist). So, you know -it's a joke, this world - always morphing between all these various shapes, with these various influences.

      Having said that, they're not all bad or idiotic. Finer emotions / perceptions / instincts are great, but they're quietest - you have to attend to them, cultivate them maybe (by subbing/ignoring the others a bit more). I think emotional instincts/perceptions are probably just observations and perceptions translated into 'emotional language' by their having to come via the 'emotional atmosphere' as it were - it's the intermediary, kind of. Maybe. (I've speculated, anyway). I'll try and shut the fuck up :)
      (In a minute)

      "What if they're full of shit? 8-)"

      Ah, now, when they're full of shit and you know it, prob'm solved :) One less person to please. (or imagine you had to).

      You rarely get that luxury though (as me, anyway) because as with everything in this world, it's often a mix. Respect is a swine, for instance. If you respect them in some way, or for some thing or other, it doesn't matter if their opinion about you might have been full of shit, you still respect what you respect. And then you got some misery, or a misery it takes time to disentangle yourself from. The other problem I get is that if their opinion/insult of me was correct AND they don't want to bother with me anymore, I couldn't not respect the astuteness of their opinion, so that's a bit of a pesky one. Hopefully, and quite often - especially if it's acute - Fuck It All (including myself) comes to the rescue, then, and we're into a new 'incarnation' for a while, til the next thing prompts the next phase...

      Sometimes I think I'm nuts writing this sort of thing (multimind) because it sounds pretty nutsy, but Soberdwarf reckons it's a valid enough take on it, and reminds me that everything is only ever an approximation in language, after all. It's my current take on it anyway... :)

      [tbc at some point]

    74. Unless, that is, you've got the knack I mentioned earlier, and then none of it applies. You don't need swimmy feelings because you've got infinitely and self-evidently superior calm, and you don't need compliments because you don't have a fking ego that needs propping up at every turn and you don't need false confidence because you haven't got anti-confidence. It's all nonsense.

    75. "Well, they were worried, enough to mention it after when they thought I'd 'calmed down'. ...

      That friend knows about 'traits', so maybe they were getting melodramatic? I actually get irritated by all that. Assumptions about ‘how it’s supposed to be’. You just climb out of a square peg, to get pushed into a triangle, when in fact you’re a circle."

      It could well be melodrama - going on involuntarily at the emotional/nervous system level. I've experienced stuff like that.

      Especially if the knowledge of traits was/is fairly new (last few years?), this stuff can take a while to 'bed in', until which time there may be a proneness to spikes in nervousness / over-sensitivity or tendency to jumpiness. Exaggerated stuff. It's involuntary though, and not conscious/intellectual, that's the thing to remember. That's what happens to us. We're not all rational and considered, like you are. Do not be dismayed! I think it'll get better, not worse. (my 2 cents anyway)

      It's very likely your look was not as bad as all that either. The friend with 'knowledge', whose been ambushed by such associations (which doesn't mean that they take them all that seriously or really think that way, or consistently, or anything) is much likelier to see someone thinking of axes than the woman at the post office.

      If it's this kind of thing, it just passes - when all that 'external' new info has bedded in and calmed down, she'll be able to just see you as you again (unable not to - normality resumes naturally).

      Totally understand the irritation at it. I'd hate it. Just bear with them - they can't help it, as it were :) They're not in full control of it.

      May even have been a tiny nervousness, which they expressed a bit melodramatically in order to play it down/ lighten it. I do that sort of thing (a lot probably). If in doubt, exaggerate it... :) It can be counterproductive, doesn't always 'work'. They may also have felt bad for feeling the nervousness and wanted to 'make it right' by owning up to it. ie That could've been the reason, rather than worry, for mentioning it after. It would be with me. If they'd been seriously worried, or worried still, they wouldn't have brought it up, is my guess. They'd have been out of there! :) Those would be my guesses. Treat it as a blip, I say, and don't worry about it :) Bet you it improves.

    76. Feeling an apology coming onJune 13, 2016 at 10:00 AM

      "How do you decide whose opinion is worth noting? Irl it's easy to size up people, there are many things to notice, here there's just the wording choices."

      Again, I don't really decide, as such... a 'decision' isn't 'made'... It's more like an impression forms. I 'divine' whose opinion is worth noting, maybe... :) (self-mockery, touch of). That's how it feels, is what I mean. But it's 'divined' less through analysis (applied) than 'responses to'(received/experienced). This is my favourite area of emotional activity - I quite enjoy my 'instincts' about or 'internal responses' to people, or things they say. It's kind of a game, in a way, because you get these instincts/feelings and then it's up to you whether you want to trust them or not. It's very similar, or closely linked, even, to the 'liking' business.

      Your language re 'choosing who to like' strikes as so alien, because I don't and kind of can't choose that - not the thing I mean when I say 'liking', anyway. I do what you're describing too - or rather Soberdwarf does - in parallel (and not always in concert) with what the emotional life is doing.

      I always get a 'response' to someone at first glance (or near enough - not quite first glance) and, similarly to the 'assumption someone doesn't like you' being as I said 'delivered' and effectively becoming a starting point, my first response to someone becomes an (emotional) starting point, that I can;t just shake off - it's there. I don't have to trust it/act on it but it's there. If I like someone or something about someone instantly, that obtains until another impression/response adds to it and/or changes it. Now, I think these impressions/responses are to the same kind of things you'll be observing, largely, but I'm getting the result in feeling form. Obviously with emotions, you're going to get the guff too - be responding to the wrong or irrelevant stuff too - but I think the important observations are in there too, fed through the emotional simultaneous translator. On first(ish) encounters of someone I'll tend to get a like, a dislike, or a whatever, which becomes, by default, a 'working hypothesis' while Soberdwarf's doing his thing. It is a weakness of ours, obviously, because if you're provisionally liking someone you'd be better off distrusting, it can be a race between Soberdwarf and Look, Aren't They Wonderful as to whether Soberdwarf can still actually make his voice heard when all the results are in.

    77. Sorry I've given you so much to read! I'll curb it now :) [No obligation to read it all either][she says right at the end]

    78. Hi Anon 2

      Have just come 'in' to SW, been busy, am reading 8-) yes there's lots. Will respond when it's a bit more sorted in my mind. BUT. We can't go on like this, here. The thread's too long, the blog's structure doesn't help. Plus, I'm just Not That Into 8-) explaining all this stuff to a bunch of strangers on a random blog. So, if you want to transfer it to email, I'll set up a temp one, I do a cut and paste, from which we carry on? Any thoughts? And I'm not being dismissive AT ALL in case this reply sounds a bit 'dispassionate.' LOL

    79. This comment has been removed by the author.

    80. Three foot! Just realised it's about ten :) dear, dear. Sorry.

    81. Anon 2
      stupid question - how do you delete posts? So I can delete as well, as it's irrelevant to this thread.

    82. Ah - only when you post via an account (blue name) is the 'delete' option available.

    83. ps I just meant delete the email address

    84. Anon 2,
      No, ping bounced back

    85. This comment has been removed by the author.

    86. OK: delete, trying again

  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

  10. Reading this was quite interesting. I feel as though I'm that person who was sort of captured by the attention. Honestly, when you're talking with anyone for a long period of time, consecutively it could get intense. I suppose if I were on a flight and had whatever interaction the two of you had-- I would've been sad to leave too. It always startles me that I like people who are so indifferent (to others and their needs or the situation)--who aren't affected or barely affected by what I do, say, or whether I'm staying or going. Although, I most likely am not friends with any real sociopaths the internal outlook of someone who isn't so easily swayed by emotions (including guilt/remorse) was interesting to read. Thank you for posting it :)

  11. This musical idea we've been playing with - it was an anon who first suggested it - it's turning out to be quite interesting.

    Dissonance vs resonance.

    Dissonance reduces predictability - that makes it a useful tool for masking an agenda, at least to the uninitiated.

    Maybe resonance or consistency is pleasureable because it improves predictability.

    What I'm finding is that being able to create my own resonance where someone is deliberately creating dissonance leads to a more personally felt and deeper harmony. A triumph of sorts, but not a victory over another; more a pleasure in creating my own safety.

    This is playing out at work and to a degree with **-*. Chess match rather than trusting relationship. The chess match appeals to my mind, not in any cruel or vicious or masochistic way; it's more the challenge of setting the other person challenges. Actually, this doesn't feel broken or bereft, it's simply a different type of engagement, another style.

    1. I'm hoping to hear your thoughts on whether dissonance relates to predictability. The book A recommended, the Gift of Fear, shines a light on how much of what we do is about prediction.

      It's feeling like a useful lens.

      Psychopaths are expert at creating expectations and then dashing them; it's like a key technique to power (at least in my experience.) Dissonance is very similar in that it obfuscates and makes prediction very, very difficult. Thus we get energy expenditure spikes and it feels painful.

      I'm keen to hear how you guys experience these things.

    2. North,
      "Psychopaths are expert at creating expectations and then dashing them"

      Oi! Who are you calling inadequate?? Huh? 8-) Why do you imagine there's that constant phenomenon described by TPI, PP, eXK: that people use them to give practical helpful advice. The fulfilled expectation is: they get it. No 'dashing of' involved. Otherwise it wouldn't consistently happen.
      Re dissonance, that certainly occurred when one wished to engage in commentary that resonated with one, but couldn't because those commenting weren't 'like one'. [No I am not getting at you BTW. I just think more in 'concrete examples' than you.] Apart from that I don't know what you mean, except that Short Shrink [the Font of All Knowledge about 'things emotional'] stated 'normal' people don't feel at ease with people who are unpredictable in their emotional responses.


    3. "The fulfilled expectation is: they get it. No 'dashing of' involved. Otherwise it wouldn't consistently happen. "

      Interesting - could you elaborate?

      Hard to quote on my phone... re your last passage: does anyone feel comfortable with wild emotional responses? Sock might perchance have something to share - I've been meaning to ask anyway.

      Also, why did he give me a tea kettle? Haha.

    4. I meant that if you go through past postings over the past few years you find there's a consistent fact of people being used as advice-givers by strangers and friends. NM just posted a few days ago about a borderline friend he'd sensibly managed out of an attack of self-harm in his bathroom, for example.

      "does anyone feel comfortable with wild emotional responses?"

      Huh? Of course I do. Why wouldn't a person be comfortable with it? I don't understand what you mean by that.

      Actually, I am understanding less and less round here. [baffled look]. Who the hell gave you a tea kettle? what on earth for? And then there's been someone going on about an 'Alice', before which they'd posted a series of increasingly bizarre cryptic comments which, well, suggest the individual at that point was a sandwich short of a picnic, to be brutally honest. And now, kettles!! SW is slowly but surely becoming increasingly deranged and not in a good way. 8-)

      good night

    5. KAT are you having a relationship with the blog?

    6. Playing it be ear. So much of life is playing it by ear for me anyway. I understand interpretation. I don't read music. But the more I listened the more I realized they didn't just have a stroke at the keyboard. They had been cranking up the player piano the whole time.

    7. Ass 2.24 am,

      "are you having a relationship with the blog?"

      8-) you give fresh meaning to the term 'mask of sanity'. LOL

    8. Ass 6.59am

      Saw a movie. 'Guns for Hire', 2015.
      You might enjoy it.

      A Cheshire KAT. 8-)

    9. Paranoid Kathy

  12. Strange things are afoot at the circle k

  13. Sociopaths are so literal. O. M. G.

  14. Asses @ 6.06, 3.54, 5.45.
    [gulp] I knew it! Worst fears confirmed.

    Public Service Annnouncement:

    Scientist have been recording the population numbers of pest species Sock puppetus ssp. Ass for some time. It's now obvious they're amassing currently, at the point in their breeding cycle when parthenogenis just isn't sufficient as a reproduction mechanism for increasing genetic diversity. They're swarming to breed!!!!!
    Run for your lives, you foolish mortals, RUN. The Asses are coming!!!!!!
    They will eat you alive, with garnish.

    It's a KATastrophe of global proportions. Unstable climate is gonna seem like a mild warm spell in spring, compared to what's coming now......!!!!!!

    I can hear them skittering about within the walls of this lab complex.............Aaarghh. Slurp; slurp; chomp. [screaming....cuts out].

  15. Well your very descriptive. Your own one man band.

    1. You're not the Anon handing out free tea kettles are you? Are YOU? 8-)
      I quite like a nice cup of tea occasionally. Shaken, but not stirred.

    2. Yours would be served up with a shot of sodium thiopental circle k

    3. Ass, don't hold back now. Just keep showing everyone your good side. That nice, open-minded, gentle-natured, kindly part of you that you demonstrate so well, invariably. It's a lesson to everyone on how to 'live and let live'. SW thanks you for your input. Honestly. Genuinely. 8-) 8-)
      LOL x 4

    4. Tickle tickle

    5. Ass

      "Tickle tickle"

      You think I don't know that? 8-)


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