Thursday, December 5, 2013

Substituting you for me

A pilot friend of mine was describing to a dilettante friend of ours the process of obtaining a pilot's license. He talked about what it means to "fly blind," or fly relying solely on the instruments, not being able to see anything out the windows of the cockpit, or at least not looking. Obviously you wouldn't want to fly blindly if you had the option to also see outside, but the point is that sometimes you don't have that option, or sometimes what you are seeing with your naked eye can be deceptive.

While he was describing the sort of psychological self-mastery it takes to ignore everything that you think you know about your situation and instead put all of your trust in fallible tinker toys of gauges (which you may not even understand how they operate), I couldn't help but think of the way I struggle to ignore meaningless but strong impulses or emotional hallucinations.

I have talked before about relying on a prosthetic moral compass to compensate for my lack of conscience. I have also talked about my understanding of the utility of trust. By that I mean, substituting someone else's judgment for my own -- particularly principled people I know who have managed to achieve a stable sort of success and happiness.

A small example of an exercise of trust involves a relative of mine. He is a lover of technology, a proud first adopter. I have never really been a gearhead of any sort, so I always have him choose my set-ups. He is not my advisor for buying/adopting tech type stuff, he actually makes decisions for me. I was talking with a work colleague the other day about it. I told him I admired his laptop, to which he replied I should just buy my own. I explained to him that my technologically more sophisticated relative hadn't told me I should/could, and that he makes all my tech decisions for me. When my colleague suggested that I just do it anyway, I realized he misunderstood the nature of me "trusting" someone else to make decisions for me. If I just bought whatever I wanted when I wanted, then he would no longer be making decisions for me, he would be making suggestions to which I could either follow or not follow, or at best he would be making demands that I could veto. That would defeat the whole point of me putting him in charge of that aspect of my life.

To the extent I believe that there is value in things like "faith" or "trust," it is that you ignore your own ideas about what you think you know and rely on something, not because it is infallible, but because it is a different sort of fallible than you. That's why I don't understand people who say they have faith in something, a religion perhaps, but only when it's convenient or it happens to coincide with how they would have chosen anyway. Maybe this is a downside to my personality, the ability and willingness to just follow blindly. I don't think it is always a good thing, and it certainly has its downsides (as does deciding yourself). But to the extent it is useful at all, I believe it is only in this way.

74 comments:

  1. Sometimes you just have to pick your battles, I suppose. Sometimes easy wins over control, which is okay if it's something that doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things.

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  3. I don't trust anyone, especially not myself. Must be... Interesting.

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  4. Hmmm... I don't know that I'd call that "trust". It certainly doesn't sound like the same trust that Aerianne describes.

    I know that my prosthetic moral compass is made up of those adopted from two other people. Where those two sets overlap, I have my answer. Where they disagree, I don't. Does that mean that I'm trusting these people? Maybe, I guess.

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  5. Substitute someone's judgement for mine? The guy who took me for my first night scuba dive. He wasn't wearing a compass. I called that out but the group went ahead cos the money was paid. Anyways we got lost. I wonder how many more moments like that will I survive.

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  6. I am more than comfortable using words like "feelings" and trust. After all, I did not invent the words nor their meanings. How many of you will say you don't have to adapt something to be able to use it and FEEL correct about doing so? And yes, easy does defeat control if and when it does. There's no denying that, unless you wake up with a reason for the otherwise. Depending on your desired outcome, I'd submit that might be a key difference between what's considered high-functioning and well, not.

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  7. I can trust too much. At least I used to. Sometimes I think it's more about being lazy minded or it's easier to trust than not to. Unless people experience the down side of trusting too much they will never know how to guage it. I suppose that has to do with maturity as well.

    Grace

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  8. or fear of being a bore or a pain in the ass without really understanding why.

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  9. Anon @ 10.36 you're allowing me to be made an example yet again. Sounds Aspie to me.

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  10. Aspie
    superior being, while deficient in chaotic morasses such as small-talk, inferior double-standard-laden customs and values trumpeted by Neurotypicals, and deciphering Neurotypical body-language, more than makes up for it with a sharp, penetrating mind that is highly adept at developing an intense focus on a subject giving them a near-savant level of proficiency, an inborn sense of principles that allows them to develop practically consistent characteristics and values, and an ability to reason independently, reducing their susceptibility to dogma, acceptance of groundless assertions, and the hazards of groupthink.


    anon@10:43, How so?

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  11. i trust no one, not even myself. not my own mother. been let down on the big things.
    i can pretend to trust as it kind of lubricates relationships cos people love to feel trusted, but i know i don't. i always make emotional insurances. i'm very loyal, but i don't expect others to be. and there's a difference between loyalty and reliability.

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  12. If you don't trust yourself then forget about trusting anyone else. You're too busy thinking they're up to the same as you are so it feels risky. My mother let me down too and I can't invest any part of myself that would make me vulnerable to her...but it hurts me that I can't have that kind of relationship with her.

    We can't pretend to trust others....all we can do is fool them.

    Grace

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  13. What are the irrational reasons that compells people to "fool" themselves. Submitting to the opinions of others as as "substitute" to replace the necessity of asserting their own? Almost like a strange Kafkaesque
    dance between docility and proclaimed outrage.

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  14. Trust is incredibly overrated whether you are a socio, aspie, empath or normal.
    I used to believe to "trust but verify"; now TRUST NO ONE.

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  15. Sometimes it can be about people pleasing Gag, which is also fooling and manipulating people.... I want you to like me so I will agree with you and not put my opinions out there for fear you may run from me..or get bored.

    Grace

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  16. That could be an interesting take on "peer pressure". That is a reversal of target and victim. Such would be almost axiomatic for socios (pardon the label)instinct for self preservation.

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  18. I feel the need to echo yesterday's "Yawn."

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  19. i don't get why anyone would *choose* to trust anyone like aerianne was talking about. that sort of trust is inexorably bound up with love surely. chicks dig it though if you pretend you trust them like that... i've written down on a bit of paper a few times before "this is the soul of " then signed it and given it to them to safeguard as a sign of how much i trust them. works a treat at zero cost to me.

    everyone is capable of letting you down (even your mother); get over it.

    as for loyalty... isn't that when you defer to someone you know instead of someone who deserves it more just because the person you know will feel bound to do the same for you in the future?

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  20. Trust is incredibly overrated whether you are a socio, aspie, empath or normal.
    I used to believe to "trust but verify"; now TRUST NO ONE.


    Fine line between practical distrust and bitterness.

    One is pragmatic, the other a prison.

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  22. as for loyalty... isn't that when you defer to someone you know instead of someone who deserves it more just because the person you know will feel bound to do the same for you in the future?

    No. Loyalty does not infer reciprocity. It's sticking by something despite it's imperfection and potential to let you down. Like an oath or a vow. It's not concerned with the self.

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  23. i think everything is at its core, concerned with the self, the only distinction between people is that some are born to care more than others (or shall we say, have a greater compulsion to be part of others), which is why you have some people behave loyally towards others even if there is no expectation of any reciprocity.

    there is also the obvious, you scrub my back i'll scrub yours within relationships also.
    but to be loyal to anyone who you see being mistreated say, is an overflow of that natural instinct and is not about you, but the other.

    caring and loyalty go hand in hand.

    B

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  24. caring and loyalty go hand in hand.

    Often true, especially in one-on-one relationships, but this is not always the case. Think of nationalism, patriotism, religion, family you despise but stick by, your children who you might not give a shit about. Stuff like that.

    Sometimes loyalty can even contradict one's own value system (though loyalty is a value in and of itself), like those in the military that do their duty even when they don't believe in the war.

    For some, loyalty can trump caring and other values that one holds. Hierarchy.

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  25. Pythias said...
    I feel the need to echo yesterday's "Yawn."


    ....

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  26. Would you (maybe not die) but say starve for your toy(s)?

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  27. I've trusted people in the past for several reasons, but one thing I'll never do is trust someone who actually says, "Trust Me". It's sort of an instant, knee-jerk reaction as alarms start to sound and someone pops out the .50 cal to start shooting Jerrys' out of the sky from a surprise, night bombardment. In fact, I think I'd prefer someone ridiculing me over telling me to trust them.

    I had a partner once who was obsessed with trust, namely me trusting her. She literally begged me to trust her, for whatever strange, nut-bag BPD reasons were going through her head. I finally said that I did, though of course not actually trusting her, and she would have broken that trust many times if it had been there.

    I guess you can say I actually have an aversion to real trust.

    Not trusting someone isn't a prison for me, though. I analyze people on different registers, meaning, there is expected behavior from them based off experience, general attitude, and mood. Then there are contingency plans I have ready to be enacted, everything between attempted homicide (had to adopt that one after it happened), to a simple behind-the-back s*** talking, and everything in-between. I don't mind being on my toes, never knowing what's around the corner is half the fun.

    I guess certain things just weigh heavier on the shoulders of others.

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  28. , but one thing I'll never do is trust someone who actually says, "Trust Me".

    I'd say that's a good call. Dude I used to hang with peppered his lies with "I want you to trust me" and "you are safe here with me," totally unprompted. Set me more off-ease than if he said nothing at all.

    Douche.

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  29. I had a partner once who was obsessed with trust, namely me trusting her. She literally begged me to trust her, for whatever strange, nut-bag BPD reasons were going through her head. I finally said that I did, though of course not actually trusting her, and she would have broken that trust many times if it had been there.

    Same. They also made it seem as if my lack of trust was some sort of handicap that needed to be overcome due to some irrational fear of something or other. In fact, I distrust others primarily because I wouldn't trust myself if I was them.

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  30. They also made it seem as if my lack of trust was some sort of handicap that needed to be overcome due to some irrational fear of something or other.

    Yep. It became my insecurities somehow that were the cause of my lack of trust. It was bullshit, though.

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  32. could you guys say anything interesting ?

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  33. Funny how you guys are getting all pissed for not having control or anything to add or say.

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  34. liking someone is far more interesting and compelling than having 'trust' in them. liking someone because of who they are (and caring about them) is the most we can achieve.
    trust suggests you want to be parented, which devalues the attraction to the person because of who they are, and sets up conditions regarding what the other person must give you in the elusive future.
    trust is childish, and whoever deems it a flaw that you choose not to trust, is either deluded or a liar.

    i think it's fair to say that trust is an illusion, counter-intuitive, and we are dependent on each other through other, more compelling forces within us ie. to not be alone.

    B

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  35. Medusa: "I'd say that's a good call. Dude I used to hang with peppered his lies with "I want you to trust me" and "you are safe here with me," totally unprompted. Set me more off-ease than if he said nothing at all.

    Douche."


    He wasn't very experienced, or simply he was just terrible at the act of manipulating. That is what I'm getting, anyway.

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  36. Oh, and I'd also agree with the statement, "Trust no one."

    It really seems unnecessary to hold true trust in someone, just as it is unnecessary to hold emotional attachments to someone.

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  37. @medusa

    "No. Loyalty does not infer reciprocity. It's sticking by something despite it's imperfection and potential to let you down. Like an oath or a vow. It's not concerned with the self."

    feelings have evolved to motivate evolutionarily 'fit' behaviour. seek food = hunger etc. i'd say that brains like mine don't process these feelings in the same way as neuro-typicals, but they are processed at a more conscious level. when you are loyal it is because of an advantage due to reciprocity whether you are aware of it or not.

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  38. I understand what you are saying, and that might be true for those who don't understand the true meaning of loyalty. Which is probably most people, especially in the modern secular world, and especially for sociopaths (which in my mind, are microcosms of the general trend the world is moving towards). I am not denigrating sociopaths, understand, but by definition sociopaths have no reason to care about or understand such stuff. Which is fine.

    "Loyalty" is up there with the concept of "faith" and the "sublime" and "enlightenment" and other such stuff that people call new age hippie religious-sounding stuff. They are above any concept of feeling, logic, empathy, reason, usefulness, etc.

    Or at least that's what it's supposed to be.

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  39. "...such stuff that people call new age hippie religious-sounding stuff. They are above any concept..."

    are you saying that simply having the emotion to direct your actions is superior to being consciously aware of the reasons behind your actions?

    in fact i've wondered if that is actually part of being human and that if every decision and thought is purely logical i may as well be a computer. but then i realised that there is no free will and the hippy concept of being human involves intangible things like a soul.
    i would not choose to be one of the herd and happier, but would rather be aware of reality and not so happy. would you choose a lobotomy to be blissfully ignorant? i see the way i think as being more aware or reality and not inferior at all.

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  40. Oh no, M.E.
    The Bible teaches progressive revelation, NOT inflexable "religion."
    If you hand over your decision making capasity to another flawed
    person, or group of people, you consign yourself to spiritual death.
    You must never cease to learn from life, and take life as it comes.
    This is only done through powers of attentive observation.
    You don't want to be tied down or "boxed." It's living death.

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  41. Trust is a weakness. I think it's always better to stand off in the side-lines and judge vicariously the different possible actions that a person could take against you. "Expect the worst but hope for the best" comes to mind.

    One of my favorite pastimes is building behavioral models for all the people that exist in my life. I like to establish in my mind what "typical" behavior is for them and then tweak it, in my mind, by imaging that behavior turned on its head in extremely negative situations. Though never completely accurate, the sort of behavioral typography I build for the individuals arround me seems to hold water well, and gives me an educated guess of what a worst-case scenario would look like. After having my guess, I then prepare a series of contingencies that allow me to have the upper-hand -- or more simply put: dominance.

    If I do it well enough, sometimes a worst-case actually is more beneficial than a best-case scenario and, when that's the case, I may even artificially create the negative reaction I envisioned to exploit the individual(s).

    In times of peace....

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    1. Never go full retard.

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  42. Funny you bring up a moral compass. I was just thinking to myself yesterday that I don't have a moral compass because I'm from Vegas :P

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  43. Ho ahaim dr. ginger. In my previous posts, I talked about “plausible deniability” , “narcissism”, “ soliciting unwanted friendships” , “ marsha linehan dialectoral behavior”, “lashon hora” , “dysfunctional families”, and some other functional keywords.
    I did not substitute you for me, I substituted ME for you. Like always post your encouraging comments below. And THNNK YOU!

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    1. Lol
      I loke to work the roomdr ginger. Pls excude my tdndencies go buddies sith smart people. Its my tedency to be a good hostess irl and i have takenit upon myself to jake moerself at home here

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    2. I meant to say that I have taken ita upon myself too ENCOURGE you to make sw your home away from home
      *refills glass of chablis*

      Delete
  44. In my experience trust and loyalty is something that has to be earned...perhaps over many years.I'm very cautious to let anyone in my inner circle, It must be hard to have a prosthetic inner compass, but good to know who you can go to when needed. I admire people's ability to adapt to various situations. And that we can help one another with that.

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    1. You all have helped me with more logical,precise,reasoned thinking.

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  45. Trust is labor saving if you choose the right context for it. It eliminates the need for micromanagement. But it should always be conditional upon periodic reevaluations that take into account shifting circumstances. (If your computer guru starts abusing crack then it might be wise to consider reevaluation of that trust based transaction).

    Trust is an increasingly valuable commodity as we live in a complex society. There is simply no way to know everything about each area of our lives. That's why we rely on professional licenses that indicate internal criteria are regularly measured and met. Trust based relationships are labor saving because they reduce or eliminate the need for background checks that take time and energy away from the matter at hand.

    The reason sociopaths are such a problem is their disregard for holding up their end of the "trust equation" that is necessary for both parties to function at maximum efficiency. Anyone who enters into a relationship with a deliberate liar who only acts in their own self interest has handicapped themselves. Trust is a funny thing- if a person feels violated enough it will infect more than just the betrayal at hand and adversely effect all trust relationships the betrayed party is associated with.

    The shunning and stigma that follows a sociopath is based on the public understanding that a serious wound to trust is one that impacts the wounded with a series of unintended consequences and tears within their entire social network. To be cut off from trust is to be cut off from the capacity to fully participate in everyday life in a satisfactory fashion.

    More than any heinous act a sociopath might be capable of, the fact a sociopath can inflict these sort of wounds without recognizing that ripple effect (or worse- taking pleasure in it) is what makes them truly a menace to society. Sociopaths feel marginalized, and ultimately they victimize by destroying trust relationships around their victims so the victim is similarly marginalized. Whether this is intentional or incidental does not matter. It has a corrosive effect on society at large.

    Lower functioning sociopaths generally get identified because their actions are obvious and the sort that invite jail time or public shaming. But higher functioning sociopaths know the letter of the law and cover their tracks in such a way that they are rarely figured as the source of marginalization/breaches of trust. Dr. Ginger referenced this personality type within the last week.

    Perhaps, then, the only way to "reach" or reform a sociopath is to meaningfully demonstrate the value of trust in such a way that the sociopath with be interested in holding up their end of a stated bargain. If that wound can be healed, then the sociopath becomes at worst someone who is mildly autistic instead of deliberately malevolent.

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    1. bc their brains would likely still process emotion differently. They would still have to rely primarily on cognitive empathy.

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  46. Wow, wouldn't that be amazing! I'd sign up for that possibility any day. I miss my friend a lot, and if we could figure it out, it could benefit us, and possibly have a trickle down effect and heal other relationships as well. Great topic today!

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  47. Are ME's tweets her own quotes or other people's quotes?

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    1. sometimes her's, sometimes other people's.

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  48. great post M.E. I often wonder about my SO -- where he would be without his religious upbringing. He has morals. but could never follow hard legalistic abusive religion that was tainted with alluring intellectual theology. he left home early cuz of it, but it had its function and purpose. where would he be without it (this moral compass). i question this lots. it gave him a guide to follow. we are out of the church setting, and now he's asked to go back years later. i fought, and fought hard against it. but he agreed liberal type setting only. o my fuckin dear, here we go again. i like it, i do, but its over-rated. i think we need guides and accountability (not abusive though) to follow, other people to help, or else we can go off limits, anyone does,LOL. i hesitate, he brought it up last month. nothings happened yet. thank god.

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  49. Superchick, Real morals or ones such as those of M.E.? The way you worded it is a little unclear.

    Neat post Mach, I don't trust but rather I expect.

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    1. @ UnBurdened- I get it- that makes a lot of sense and I know that your life experience has taught you to avoid acting like a wide eyed innocent, because it makes you a target.

      To relate with the head is safer. It's my preferred M.O.
      It is a daily struggle for me to risk trusting. But I know that if I don't I will live a smaller life and teach my children calculation, not hope. Both have their place- but as a woman who lived without hope for a long time, I'd rather not have that be the default setting for my kids. I want them to see the good in others before they immediately hedge their bets (But I do want critical thinking to inform initial goodwill. Otherwise they are screwed.)

      The reason life sucks for sociopaths (when you strip the sensation seeking away) is that they are fucking cowards- scared to hope.

      I'm a fucking coward too, much of the time. But I am trying with all my might to nurture that part of myself that still sees the good in others (all the while using my defensiveness and intellectualizing to try to make it less scary because I still have my very broken moments)

      I've given up on expecting because so much of the time life takes an unexpected turn... but I still try to trust on my better days.

      Delete
    2. Is this lemonade ...I was uhm drinking lemona...

      Delete
    3. ^^ if yr bashing Dr. G, go somewhere else please. we appreciate her input and dialogue here. take yr lemonade stand and gingerbread cookies elsewhere. And have sum fuckin respect!

      Delete
    4. @ unburdened, i was just ramblings my situation with my SO, lol. he dont get the feelings like empaths do, then he gets intense feelings on other issues. he can turn it on/off. with me it's on, and with his family. i would never change him. it works. he does not enjoy people's company too much, just his inner circle ( a lot). And expects things exactly how you commented in the post below this one. but i think his religious upbringing had something to do with it. he learnt a code of conduct and has a gauge. better gauge them me. but sadly it was also tainted with abusive. i suck at grammar, i hope u get the gist

      Delete
    5. Superchick, chill, the lemonade's spiked and delicious.

      ((Besides, if someone's going out of their way to pretend they're dissing you, it means they kinda like you *wink*))

      Delete
    6. ;) winks back attcha. spiked lemonade, delicious.

      just referring to this anonymous gingerbread dude above us. seems to dish it out. if you dish it out, expect it to be back on yr own plate.

      Delete
    7. Ok ok ok! Stop yelling at me, superchick!! Shall we share Dr ginger the way of Solomon?

      Delete
    8. the only thing i shall share with you is gingerbread cookies with lots o lots of icing. don't be cheap.
      gingerbread may I ask.. How tall are you? Are you a 6 foot gingerbread man or close to it ?

      Delete
  50. The thing is, that I see hope as want/need without action, like faith and that I don't 'feel' that internal compulsion to hope even when things get bad. Also when I expect, not trust, I mean I expect people to let's say, be on time when they say they will, or pay me back etc...I guess I expect them to uphold a certain code of conduct, being Empaths. If they betray that expectation, well, I get creative.

    I would say teaching your kids critical thinking above trust/hope is important for them to be more secure and less dependant on the expectations and impressions of others imo.

    I'm sure you've experienced that even the worst of moments can bring clarity.

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    1. Absolutely. Blind trust/hope sets a person up for a lifetime of abuse. However, if one lacks the capacity to hope it is very difficult to marshall the energy to take any risks in uncertain situations.
      Nelson Mandela had the habit of operating from a place of initially giving people the benefit of the doubt. He got burned at times, but on the whole he was able to coax cooperative behavior out of potential adversaries. It was his willingness to strategically be vulnerable first that set in motion cooperation.
      The key is- hoping that people will act in a cooperative manner after their actions indicate a bias towards selfishness is foolish after a certain point. That's where critical thinking comes in- it helps you decide when it's best to cut your losses.

      Delete
  51. Not sure how to explain this, but if you trust everyone... what you're trusting is not their words, but THEM, their way of being, when they're with you. If you trust that, then you will be able to see the truth in their deception. Their body language will tell you whether to listen to their words or not. Your reactions to their actions will show you what to expect of them. There is a level on which everything works together, for the benefit of each other. If someone is not acting how we want, maybe there is something wrong with our expectations, and not their behaviour.

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