Monday, November 25, 2013

The definitive sociopath test?


I was talking with a socio reader about the possibility of someone developing a foolproof method for identifying/diagnosing sociopaths (e.g. brain scans), and what that would mean in terms of our own sense of self and identity:

You know, I have given a lot of thought over the last year about whether this sociopath label really does fit or if I am trying to make it fit when it really doesn’t. As we both agree, in the end it doesn’t really matter anyway. The value of the exercise for me though, was conceptualizing my life experience in an entirely different but ultimately much more enlightening way. That is what matters.

I think the people that say that you and your readers are not sociopaths are right and wrong. They are right to the degree that people like us are indeed not like the prison/institutionalized population. Obviously. They are wrong to then surmise that the label has little to no direct link to what is referred to the suite of behaviors collectively referred to as sociopathy. Everyone assumes all sociopaths must look exactly like the ones in prison and if you don’t, the label can have zero relevance to you (or me). That assumption is based on a lack of research as well as a lack of independent thinking. I know. Even as I don’t wrap myself up with that label or identify all of myself with it, I nevertheless recognize it’s utility. I don’t have to say any of this to you. I’m preaching to the choir.

Bottom line for me anyway, is that I wouldn’t be shocked to discover that my brain looks normal. It really could be that those psychopaths whose brains look different are different in precisely those ways that gave rise to behaviors that landed them in prison to begin with. It might go back to the whole primary versus secondary psychopath distinction. The primaries may be the way they are because of their brains while the secondaries may be the way they are because of social/childhood issues. Maybe you and I would fall under the secondary category. Who knows? Although I do think it would be interesting to have more scientific research done on this, research involving an entirely non-institutionalized population of would be sociopaths. There would be many correlations between the two groups I’m sure (prison verses non-imprisoned), but I imagine there would also be some interesting and maybe even startling differences. While we’d share traits like a relative absence of conscience, low empathy, shallow emotions, an aptness for deception and manipulation, grandiose sense of self, etc, all the traits that set us apart from the psychological average, there might be some very important reasons why you and I aren’t in prison while the prototypical sociopaths are. Has there been any research done in this particular area?

Having said all of that, an exciting possibility that the naysayers brings up is that maybe we are so different that no one has thought of a label for us yet. Maybe we aren’t sociopaths at all. Maybe we represent undiscovered country, psychologically speaking. Who knows?
In any event, finding out your brain looks perfectly normal wouldn’t change a thing about your life experience up to this point, would it? It would be like a homosexual (I like using homosexuals as examples) discovering that his brain looks precisely like a heterosexual’s would. So what? Would that knowledge change him into a hetero? Would he suddenly start liking women? Would the results of this scan invalidate everything he’d been through his entire life? Would he have to force himself to like women because a brain scan indicates that his preference for men may have more to do with how he grew up and less to do with his genes and hormones? I don’t think anyone would seriously suggest that other than the religious fundies. I think it would be similar for you (and for me). Ditto for Hare’s checklist. I have already surmised that I wouldn’t score high enough on his list to justify labeling me as a Hare psychopath. I’m guesstimating that I’d get somewhere between a 22 and 26 tops and in the US, you have to score 30. What would it mean to have that guess proved right if the test was administered to by Hare himself? Not much.
I asked myself why I did the verbal diarrhea thing with this response. It’s because your email struck a chord. I spent so many years trying to be normal. I kept thinking that if I found my calling or found my true love (that was back at the beginning of my search phase, in my early twenties… my ex-wife quickly disabused me of that fantasy), found god, found spiritual enlightenment, I would then be full of all those emotions I lacked. I thought it was the absence of these things that created the absence, the vacancy, I saw within myself. That’s what movies and books and TV and my family and friends all told me in one way or the other. I was stupid and blind enough to believe them. It wasn’t until a few years ago, when the search began to look like the dead end it was, that I finally started giving up hope. During that winding down period I had my “wow, I have went about my search in an entirely self centered way” insight. You know the drill, seducing, manipulating, then abandoning once I discovered that the other person or persons didn’t have what I was looking for. I hadn’t thought of it that way at all up until that moment of insight. I suppose that in a very real sense, I discovered that I was a bit of an emotional vampire. A year or so later, I found your blog and for the first time, someone else had my experiences. Someone else knew what I had gone through because they had gone through life in a very similar way. Even down to the moment in your childhood when you knew something had changed and that you couldn’t go back! I’d never told any of my closest friends or family that, yet you’d been through it yourself! Finding out my brain looks normal wouldn’t alter any of that. Not one single bit. In fact and if anything, it would only deepen the mystery. If we can’t point to any specific neural distinctions, then what the hell created the differences? Why do I not understand guilt on an emotional level after all these years? Why are my emotions so superficial? Why don’t I have a stable sense of self? Etc.
Ok, I’ll stop now. You just got me thinking for a bit, that’s all. What would it mean to you to discover that per your brain scan or per Hare’s checklist, you can’t possibly be a socio/psychopath?

It's funny, how we're always going on about self-awareness and self-knowledge, trying to ferret out or at least understand any delusions. Sometimes I wonder if so much self-introspection can actually create delusions, though. I know how easy (sickly easy) it is for me to compartmentalize and have one part of me trick the other part. I've done it in the past and lived lies for years. Am I currently in the middle of a delusion? Is everything I think I know about who I am and what sort of world I live in completely delusional? Including being socio-leaning?

Sometimes I think to myself, if my life depended on it, would it be easier for me to prove that I am a sociopath, or that I am not. Interestingly, I think it is my "sociopathic" traits that would make either scenario seem about equally likely or unlikely. There does seem to be something to it all, though, something consistent between me and other people that find me at this site, although I'm not wedded to the term "sociopath." Sometimes it's creepy what I discover in common with those who email me. Whatever I am, there must be a lot of others like me.

290 comments:

  1. I don't have much to say, but I really love this post, and it makes a lot of sense to me.

    I'd also like to say that I am continually boggled by how you manage to come up with content every single day about such a seemingly specific subject. Though these days I tend to think that "sociopathy", at least in the way it's discussed and defined here by the commenters, is not really so specific as it seems.

    I'm inclined to believe that this non-institutionalized "sociopathy" we speak of here is not much more than a perspective on the world and reality. It's not a personality, not a disorder, and most certainly not a mental illness.

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  2. it is a mental thing however. i don't think that so many people would have the same perspective on the world without some kind of mutation of the brain. i also have found here a sanctuary. i used to search for myself and never find anything until i stumped into this blog. it all suddenly made sense. it was like finding a country where they spoke my language. i refer to the lack of empathy and the lack of consciousness. i was desperate not understanding what was happening around me and reading this blog, i all made sense.

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  3. I have found this blog to be very informative. Socios are an enigma to me and although I don't think I'll ever really understand you guys, I at least have had the priviledge to get some insight to the way some of you see things.

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  4. I’ve been following this blog for a while now. I don’t know if I’m a sociopath or not. Probably not, but I do have many sociopathic traits. However there’s a lot that doesn’t fit, so I totally agree with Medusa in the above comment:

    “ I'm inclined to believe that this non-institutionalized "sociopathy" we speak of here is not much more than a perspective on the world and reality. It's not a personality, not a disorder, and most certainly not a mental illness.”

    Whatever it is, its good to know that I’m not the only one, and maybe I’m not even wrong.

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  5. well, the way i see things is that everybody is a nullity. they don't mean anything unless they've got something to offer. it doesn't have to be material, it could also be social security or entertainment. if by having a friend means that i can enter social circles freely, without a worry, then i'll make a friend that suits that pattern. every person is an invitation to a circle so it depends on what circle you want to join. or maybe you find a friend that gives you money without asking them back. it's always a good thing to have friends with cash cause they are careless with money and you can easily make some disappear. as you know there's not much self awareness going on in a mind of a socio so people are also good for mirrors.

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  6. M.E. said Sometimes I wonder if so much self-introspection can actually create delusions, though.

    I hear ya on this one. And this:

    I know how easy (sickly easy) it is for me to compartmentalize and have one part of me trick the other part. I've done it in the past and lived lies for years.

    Is everything I think I know about who I am and what sort of world I live in completely delusional?

    Ultra skepticism. I’m a skeptic myself, so I get it. It makes sense to keep questioning yourself, to never turn any particular belief into a certainty and thus beyond question’s reach. I also agree with your implication that it can be taken too far. How do you know when too far is too far? When you are paralyzed by indecision. When life passes you by because you’re too busy trying to find the end of the rainbow, the place beyond all questions. That’s the real danger of philosophizing run amok. Nothing is certain, save the I Am thing, Descartes style, and death. Beside those two things, in a philosophical sense, everything else is literally debatable. But where does endless debate get you besides nowhere? At some point, I feel like you just have to get on with it, using the best, most reliable answers you’ve come up with (without turning those answers into dogma).

    What else is there?

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  7. Daniel, I was about the say something similar in the last blog post. As it was turning all meta near the end.

    All the ontology talk is fun and educational for a while and can be good for perspective and humility but in the end (what end, really?) the search for "truth" and "reality" becomes a Mobius strip or an endless spiral down the rabbit hole, of which I am all too familiar. Paralysis or catatonia can be the result when taken too far. (see: Nietzsche)

    At this point in my life I'm more interested in what I can do with reality as i see it right now. Right or wrong, complete or not, objective or subjective; whatever. I'm tired of thinking, and more interested in acting. Just trying to get ahead within my current frame of reference, which, of course is free to change in the future if the need arises.

    And I'm getting addicted to the italics tag, apparently.

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  8. bullshit and nonsense Medusa and Daniel

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  9. Daniel: We are but specs of specs. The world as we know it is a spec compared to the known universe. For all we know humanity is too but I would argue it's less of a spec than the planet, at least in present form. You and I are both specs among humanity. You seem a bit more intelligent than I in terms of explanations but we are both equally meaningless by comparison.

    There's a system involved between specs: relationships, checks and balances. What do you see worth exploring? That's what else. Hell, this blog could be "what else".

    Fred: I have nothing but nonsense and bullshit to offer.

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  10. Fred; October 21, 2010 5:40 AM it's always a good thing to have friends with cash cause they are careless with money and you can easily make some disappear

    easily make (what?) -if its money- dissappear? Then I think that could possibly my psychological disorder.

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  11. Sooo....those who are self-aware sociopaths, identify with them, or diagnosed as one, still question the possiblity of being one? Why? Doesn't knowing stop all the questioning? Doesn't knowing help you finally identify, and fit in somewhere? Like the guy who stated it was like going to a country where they speak the same language he speaks. Don't you finally feel whole? I don't get it. Why question after finally getting a label.

    Good article!

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  12. Daniel, how old are you? I know I'm inviting possible future clowning, but seriously, how old are you. Just curious, this is not to start issues.

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  13. Yeah, I feel whole now. I'm going to start opening up my arms, heart, and mind to everyone on THIS blog. Soon after I'll try the world!

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  14. Really, Jesse? Is that all it takes for you to stop questioning? What's your convenient label, then?

    I'm not going to stop questioning things because I happen to fit under some umbrella term. That's just idiocy. Humans aren't constant creatures. We're malleable and, moreover, constantly in flux. To just settle because you rather like a title is just inviting stagnation.

    Have you learned nothing in your time here?

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  15. I feel anonymous now. I think it's so trendy. It makes me feel like I'm a part of things!

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  16. Hello Postmodern,

    I have learned a lot here, more than I can handle, apparently, but to be honest, if I had a form of affliction, and I came across a proper definition, I would be satisfied with the answer. It means the searching is over. Why would anyone want to keep searching. This doesn't mean that I give up on myself, and discovery, but to have the proper title in mind would put me to some ease instead of wandering clueless and lost.

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  17. Perhaps you are just a whole new form of super human, and you need that constant search to understand oneself. I'm not like you, I don't need that, so I don't bother. I just find it odd that anyone, sociopath or not, would want to keep searching. Does this have to do with boredom? I'm not trying to sound ignorant here, or sarcastic. Are you not satisfied with just one answer?

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  18. Why keep questioning yourself on such topics. I agree with Daniel.
    Why not explore the world you have before you, instead of stagnating yourself with too much self-introspection. Don't get me wrong, it's good to discover what makes you tick, but after a while it's time to proceed. There's so many things to conquer. I would like to see articles on manipulation, taking power, and maintaining it.

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  19. @Fred: I literally LOL.

    @Anonymous Spec: Ok. Suppose I agreed with you. So what? What should it mean to me to think of myself as a spec? And when I asked ‘what else is there’ I was referring more to eliciting an alternative to getting on with it at some point. Endless questioning about deep, ontological issues is not a viable lifestyle choice for most of us.

    @Jesse: I’m in my 30’s. And I am both skeptical and infinitely curious about the world around me as well as within me. So yes, in one sense I don’t expect to ever stop reading and learning and expanding my intellectual horizons. As long as I have a functioning brain, I’m going to keep asking questions. To do otherwise, to just stop with what I now know and never wonder about anything else would be like entombing my mind within a sarcophagus of dogma. But curiosity is different from analysis paralysis, which is what I was speaking to in my original comment.

    @Medusa, well said and on point, especially this:

    the search for "truth" and "reality" becomes a Mobius strip or an endless spiral down the rabbit hole, of which I am all too familiar. Paralysis or catatonia can be the result when taken too far. (see: Nietzsche)

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  20. Jesse, I would like to know what about sociopathy you consider super human. Is it the intellect? Is it the "special powers"?

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  21. Daniel: What I mean is this. Right now you are alive and part of the system mentioned. Participant or non-participant you are filling your role. Maybe you are one of the hive, maybe you are against the hive, or maybe you are allowing the hive to see what "excess" looks like so they might be able to conjure up an inaccurate definition for it.

    Should you migrate to another planet far far away your origins will still be THIS system regardless of how well you're able to blend in and conform.

    So live.

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  22. ^Anonospec said, So live.

    Aye aye cap'n!

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  23. You called me cap'n. My heart is smiling.

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  24. part of me definitely identifies with the label 'sociopath' but i'm not violent and have chosen to lead a moral(ish) life because i don't care much about anything so may as well act 'morally'. as a kid i experimented with whether i had a conscience (i didn't). i always feel like i'm acting in social situations with conscious awareness of body language, voice inflection etc. and basically like i'm hollow inside.
    i'm a successful scientist and have an opportunity to scan my brain with one of my OEM clients - part of me wants to see if i have, e.g. more white matter in the prefrontal cortex, but also i know i will decline the offer because i don't want the others present to know i'm different...
    WRT skepticism even when i should have been an easily brainwashed kid it never even occurred to me that the church bullshit might be true...
    it's only very recently that i've accepted what i am is who i will always be and i won't simply 'grow up'.
    i don't know if any label applies to me but to some extent it is good to know there are others in a similar position.

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  25. Thats pretty much how I feel. Hollow, in a near constant state of apathy and I have no deep feelings about anyone in my life.

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  26. oh to be hollow.
    this is fascinating. i wonder, what is preferable? being choc-a-bloc or hollow?
    i'm diametrically opposite to you people and it has its burdens, but i would still suppose that neither are preferable. but then, we'll never really understand the other's perspective enough to say.

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  27. Will anyone here help explain what is the,(and how to use)HTML tags to insert hyperlinks?

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  28. i'm diametrically opposite to you people and it has its burdens, but i would still suppose that neither are preferable. but then, we'll never really understand the other's perspective enough to say.

    Yah, this is why I have a problem with either empaths or sociopaths having superiority complexes simply because they are either an empath or a sociopath. There are so many other factors that are more important in determining an apparent superiority.

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  29. Anon 2:13:

    Not super powers specifically, but the way they are able to use basic human interaction to get what they want. The ablility to mold people based on the person they are molding, if that makes sense. Yes, definitely the intellect. I think sociopaths understand people better than psychiatrists, from my experience anyway. It's frightening, but remarkable at the same time...guess all the people watching they do.

    Daniel:

    Thanks, kinda figured.

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  30. Medusa:

    The more I read your comments the more I'm starting to see you relating more to the sociopathic side. Just sayin'...

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  31. The ablility to mold people based on the person they are molding, if that makes sense.

    I would restate this and instead say that that they mold themselves based on what the person in front of them already is.

    I think sociopaths understand people better than psychiatrists, from my experience anyway.

    I think you are probably right. I don't really have any direct experience with psychiatrists, but in terms of psychology/psychiatry in a general sense I think this is probably true. The field is still in the dark ages in many ways, and is based off of a very very limited perspective.

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  32. The more I read your comments the more I'm starting to see you relating more to the sociopathic side. Just sayin'...

    Naw, I love my cat in a massively real way.

    (Maybe because cats are basically sociopaths?)

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  33. Thanks for the uh, correction. That does make more sense.

    The feild still being in the dark ages makes no sense seeing how it has been around so long. In my research I decided to buy a DSM (it was 122.00) and read some of the disorders in there. It seems there is a disorder for everyone. The antisocial one says that they never seek help because they don't think they need it, and manipulation of the doctor takes place. The symptoms were very vague too. And what's this, must have features of 4 or more, stuff. Do the doctors diagnosing literally use a list? Is that the way the diagnose people?
    And why was the book I bought just easily available...

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  34. What? Sorry, I missed the joke...

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  35. It was a dumb joke. Sociopaths being unable to love anything and all that jazz...

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  36. @Jesse:

    You are younger than me in more ways than one my friend.

    Re your statement about molding people. It’s the gift of being a chameleon. So many people are blind to themselves, which makes it easy to see truths about them that they don’t (or more likely refuse to) see. I personally prefer those. Denial and psychological dissonance makes things clear to me. You observe, you scrutinize, you evaluate. Then you subtly or sometimes not so subtly mirror. Once the object of your scrutiny feels safe due to the mistaken notion that you are like them, directing them becomes easier. No magic or super powers involved.

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  37. Medusa:
    delayed, but now I get it. Sorry I killed the laugh moment of the joke, but yeah, lol, it was funny, cheesy, but funny.

    Daniel:
    Just...man, you make it sound so easy. Are people that simple?

    The whole younger than you statement, I'm not sure if there is a hidden message behind that. Experience-wise, and mentally, along with obviously, yes, I am younger than you. So in that sense, you are right.

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  38. Daniel:
    I couldn't help but notice your respecting my name. Is this a hint of caring about bothering me? Or I haven't said anything stupid yet...

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  39. Yes, Jesse, most people are that simple. With few exceptions, they may as well be clockwork finches; wind them up and they'll sing all day for you.

    You should give it a go, sometime, Jesse boy. You might enjoy the rush.

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  40. Jesse, most people in my experience lie to themselves about themselves. Constantly. And to be in any kind of relationship with said people is to really be within a circle of mutually assured deception. When they feel that you will not contradict the story they believe about themselves, when you in fact, validate their sense of self, they let you in. Of course, there are exceptions. There are the intelligent ones, the self aware ones, the ones who question and don’t settle for easy answers, the ones who have the inner strength to stand on their own two feet. Tragically, I haven’t run into many of the latter type.

    As to your other question, yes Jesse, I am concerned about your feelings. I was starting to feel bad for making you feel disrespected. It became clear to me that you were here to learn and that I was standing in the way of that with my childish antics. You are a brave man to come here and share your thoughts with a crowd like this. I envy you that.

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  41. Heh, so are we converting people now?

    Kinda weakens the advantages of being a sociotype, eh?

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  43. See, this is why Daniel's the lady's man of the blog, and I'm just the grammar Nazi. :P

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  45. daniel b and postmodern socio

    do you ever meet people who you realise see through you straight away or pretty quickly?
    and i don't mean other sociopaths.

    do you try to persuade them otherwise/beguile them or 'out' yourself to them?

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  46. @Aerianne: Oh, dear me. Hoisted with my own petard! ~faints~

    @Anonymous: Not so far. As for what I might do if the situation came up? Hmm... depends what they've seen through, doesn't it? Anything you can do to make that more clear? I'll be able to come up with a more thoughtful answer, if so.

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  47. as in they know you're 'different' from others pretty quickly. as in a sociopath.

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  49. Ah. Well, then, no. It's not exactly a facial tattoo, after all. There have certainly been commenters who have suggested that they can "always spot a socio", but not only is this highly unlikely on the face of it, it can be nothing but boastful. Even the best people readers only have an 80%-90% success rate or so. I would roughly estimate myself a 95% for facial expressions and upper body language, but significantly lower (80%-85% at best) for subtle lower body language. This averages to 90% overall, and I fancy myself quite the perceptive gent. The idea that someone could do such things with perfect accuracy is pure fantasy.

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  50. aerianne

    so do you think you're well-versed enough to spot one now if you met one? as in, quite quickly?

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  51. I suppose I should add that what I manage now for a success rate required a great deal of academic learning to supplement my inherent system. I was fairly good before then, but my perceptions are much easier to analyze and categorize now. I suppose I may have developed such improvements naturally over time otherwise, but I'd like to think I've accelerated the process a bit by adding the academic work. If I can get off my ass and finish, I'm actually going to try to get a paper published on the subject. :D

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  52. do you ever meet people who you realise see through you straight away or pretty quickly?

    After about 3 months of dating my ex, I accused him of being a sociopath. This was before I knew or pondered much about the deeper aspects of sociopathy. After that he tried to blame me for stuff and then disappeared.

    2 years later, back again. I don't know if his continued interest in me was the fact that I recognized him on some level (familiarity), or if he desired to convince me he wasn't and continue the game.

    Didn't work out so well for him. Or me.

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  54. Also, I'd like to add that I'm very curious what a Round 3 would look like.

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  55. oh.

    what? on the psychology of body language etc?

    interesting, cos i might write something on sociopaths. tit-for-tat. ;)

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  57. here's a tip aerianne.

    see how much they flinch when you throw a frying pan at their face.

    if they barely do, they are probably a sociopath. ;)

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  58. Postmodern:
    lol, I'm afraid I am not intellectual enough to fool people and control them, if that's what you meant. I'm too easily controled by others as it is. I am very weak to certain types of people, especially women. A pushover I guess. I do envy the strengths that I learned sociopaths have. Maybe some emotions do get in the way. I don't envy the lonliness you guys must feel, and the constant need to be entertained. It's nice to do nothing sometimes, to have a clear uncorrupted mind. THIS is something YOU should try sometime, if possible. Try to deal with not being entertained. I was nowhere near as in tune as you when I was twenty-one. That boggles me...

    This brought up a thought, can medication help sociopaths?

    Daniel:
    I am truly touched, and the respect I had for you (though you dissed me) has increased. I was just pissed at times because you, and Post, made me question my beliefs. It messed me up because I thought I figured myself out, and here you guys go messing it all up for me. While learning more through this site my fears of you guys have lessened, but haven't disappeared. I think I may have dealt with one outside of this site, and that experience along with this has opened my eyes. I was enraged and vengeful at first, but now I have calmed a bit. You guys are naturally fucked up in the normal people sense, but you are still human. I finally learned that, especially today with your apology. Thank you.

    Postmodern, the love is here for you too man, yes, LOVE. Don't be scared, lol!

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  60. Lol, sorry for sissing up the place guys. I tend to be good at that.

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  61. Why is it that the player can't see when they are been played?

    lol.

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  64. @Jesse

    Thanks man. I appreciate that. Now, I am about to do you a big favor here.

    My apology was of course a lie. Your commenting history with me should have made that obvious to you. Hell, the paragraph right about my apology should have made it clear. I knew it wouldn’t though. I deliberately picked words in my 2nd paragraph that I knew would get you to take my apology seriously. And you did. You were utterly predictable.

    You say you thought you had yourself figured out, but the truth is, you don’t. That is one of your particular self deceptions, one that your comments at this blog made obvious to me and probably most everybody else who regularly reads and participates in the comments section from the very beginning. You think you know who you are, but what you know are the lies you tell yourself. If I knew you IRL, I could easily steer you down paths you never imagined yourself travelling because of this.

    Of course I don’t give a damn about your feelings. I mean seriously man, who the fuck do you think I am, Dr Phil? I could care less whether you respect me or not, whether you are touched by my words or not, what you are or aren’t pissed by. But your self deception allowed you to believe otherwise.

    So there it is. The favor. In order not to be so easily led by the nose, start questioning yourself and the truths that you hold dear. You’ll make yourself stronger that way. I guess in my own way, I am Dr. Phil. Imagine that.

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  65. Ooooh, but what would be fun Jesse is if you were in fact one of the old commenters playing at naive to see what kind of responses you'll get.

    I might have to try that myself the next time I'm bored...

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  66. Hmmm. Interesting. My original comment didn't take...

    Let's try that again.

    @Jesse

    Thanks man. I appreciate that. Now, I am about to do you a big favor here.

    My apology was of course a lie. Your commenting history with me should have made that obvious to you. Hell, the paragraph right above my apology should have made it clear. I knew it wouldn’t though. I deliberately picked words in my 2nd paragraph that I knew would get you to take my apology seriously. And you did. You were utterly predictable.

    You say you thought you had yourself figured out, but the truth is, you don’t. That is one of your particular self deceptions, one that your comments at this blog made obvious to me and probably most everybody else who regularly reads and participates in the comments section from the very beginning. You think you know who you are, but what you know are the lies you tell yourself. If I knew you IRL, I could easily steer you down paths you never imagined yourself travelling because of this.

    Of course I don’t give a damn about your feelings. I mean seriously man, who the fuck do you think I am, Dr Phil? I could care less whether you respect me or not, whether you are touched by my words or not, what you are or aren’t pissed by. But your self deception allowed you to believe otherwise.

    So there it is. The favor. In order not to be so easily led by the nose, start questioning yourself and the truths that you hold dear. You’ll make yourself stronger that way. I guess in my own way, I am Dr. Phil. Imagine that.

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  67. Medusa, I have that same curiosity about my relationship. Last night, I caught myself thinking some things that ended up sounding really idiotic when I stepped back and listened to myself from outside myself. They were things like, "I'm the only one who truly knows him. I understand him, now. I could help him. He needs me. I could teach him about himself and how to work with what he is." I just wanted to slap my own self.

    I think I'd be less interested in trying to "help" him be a better sociopath (patronizing!), and more interested in going with the flow and having fun with him (I don't mean at his expense, or mine for that matter). Not necessarily fun in a "sociopathic" sense, just in a general sense.

    The problem is that at this juncture I have no fucking clue how self-aware he actually is. Or if it really even matters?

    Not even sure if he really is one, though he does refer to himself as one when he thinks I'm not looking.

    He could just be a wannabe, born out of extreme self-hate. Hard to say.

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  68. Hmmm. Interesting. My original comment didn't take...

    Let's try that again.

    @Jesse

    Thanks man. I appreciate that. Now, I am about to do you a big favor here.

    My apology was of course a lie. Your commenting history with me should have made that obvious to you. Hell, the paragraph right above my apology should have made it clear. I knew it wouldn’t though. I deliberately picked words in my 2nd paragraph that I knew would get you to take my apology seriously. And you did. You were utterly predictable.

    You say you thought you had yourself figured out, but the truth is, you don’t. That is one of your particular self deceptions, one that your comments at this blog made obvious to me and probably most everybody else who regularly reads and participates in the comments section from the very beginning. You think you know who you are, but what you know are the lies you tell yourself. If I knew you IRL, I could easily steer you down paths you never imagined yourself travelling because of this.

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  69. Part deux:

    Of course I don’t give a damn about your feelings. I mean seriously man, who the fuck do you think I am, Dr Phil? I could care less whether you respect me or not, whether you are touched by my words or not, what you are or aren’t pissed by. But your self deception allowed you to believe otherwise.

    So there it is. The favor. In order not to be so easily led by the nose, start questioning yourself and the truths that you hold dear. You’ll make yourself stronger that way. I guess in my own way, I am Dr. Phil. Imagine that.

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  70. A little paranoia kicks in.

    lol.

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  71. ...or I could just make it easier on myself and just try to date Daniel.

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  76. Yes, Aerianne, but do you want to be his girlfriend, or his life coach?

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  78. The whole "taking people at face value" is not an easy thing to do for most folks.

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  80. do you ladies have female friends who find themselves with sociotypes too? or are you sort of the odd ones of the bunch?

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  82. do they think you're a bit crazy?
    when you say 'sociopath' people would probably jump to conclusions.
    right?

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  83. I generally don't ever have much in terms of female friends. When I do it's usually a superficial friendship. My best friend is female, though, and no she doesn't go for sociotypes at all. Quite the opposite. She likes the uber-empaths. She likes the ones that cry a lot, and she's said so explicitly.

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  85. I can only imagine they would overreact. Most "normals" don"t really care to understand what it means, then again they don't have much of a way to learn.

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  87. Lesson learned asshole, thanks.

    Aerianne:
    I did have suspicion, but as he pointed out so nicely, I didn't listen to my gut. Again, lesson learned.

    Now all I have to do is wait for Postmodern to add salt to the wound. Great...

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  90. I did get wiser, that's for sure. Grace warned me, I should have listened.

    I'm pretty much done with this site. You guys win, you, yet again, bullied off another poster.

    Conclusion:

    Sociopaths are monsters, always will be. Thank you Aerianne for the comments here. You too Grace, and M.E.

    Good riddance.

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  92. Aww man, it's just the internet, Jesse. Please don't take anything (especially Daniel) personally. We are all just strangers without faces, not worth getting upset about.

    That is all the pep talk I'm going to do for you, btw.

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  93. Aerianne, 12 steps down into the basement dungeon, maybe.

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  96. Me too! I wonder what's up with her.

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  98. Sometimes it's good to take a break from this place and get back to reality and "normalcy". The perspective shifts can get overwhelming; sometimes a period of conscious or sub-conscious processing is good.

    Maybe that's what she's doing?

    Or maybe she just happens to have a life.

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  99. poor jesse came to the wrong place for handouts.

    dunno who anon at 9:39 was but it wasn't me.
    i echo what you were saying about not discussing it. i'm not typical, never have been lol.

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  101. hey, now i feel left out. when's it my turn to get bullied off?right, say something stupid...
    simply can't think of anything.:D

    im an arrogant bitch. so yay i can stay!

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  102. i don't so much despise them, just don't relate to the general hub of inane noise that most people pass as dialogue. hehe.

    what specifically is it you don't like about them?

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  103. Me too. I've always gotten along better with males. (My ex told me that was a red flag, which is funny coming from Mr. Red Flag himself.)

    I guess I'm also a bit of a tomboy, but I'm also a bit of a gender-shifter. In high school I was basically a transvestite. Never have thought of myself as either male or female, and I'm often surprised to remember that I am, indeed, strictly female. I play with both sides of the coin these days, but I do often wonder if I'm intersex.

    My relationship with my best friend is a very intellectual one, and maybe that's why it works so well. It's not all tea parties and flowers (though I know she would appreciate it if tea parties and flowers were included).

    My friendship with her is invaluable.

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  104. i'm so gonna do a PMS and correct myself. 'pass off.' why thank you. balance. is now. restored.

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  107. I don't think females are necessarily shallow, I just think they are taught to act that way.

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  109. Same with, say, jocks. Frat boys. And Wall Street dudes. And reality show celebrities.

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  110. @Jesse: Socially active Sociopaths DO understand people better than psychiatrists. A socially active sociopath psychiatrist? Now that's getting your money's worth! But in all seriousness, I've had a psychiatrist actually pull me aside after some family counseling and tell me, "You should do this for a career, you're a natural at reading people."

    @ResCogitans: I understand exactly what you mean to the T, and explain such on a recent blog post of mine. You can check it out here: http://notablepath.blogspot.com/2010/10/anti-heroes-and-villains.html

    @Postmodern Sociopath: You remind me that I'm not human, and I mean that in the most flattering of ways with a smug, devious smile on my face. Also, picked up a pack of Periques and Regulars. Periques are nice but I have a hard time finishing them, so I think I'll stick with the regulars.

    @Anon 7:25 in regards to people seeing through you: Yes, it has happened twice, one was a fellow sociopath, the other was roughly fifty years old and had a sociopath for a son, so I consider him a damn cheater >.> It wasn't 'right off the bat', though. I have to keep some of my ego...

    I cannot speak for your situations (ladies) but I often feel that the Big Fat warning signs for a sociopath and generally mixed up with someone being childish. I'm sure you regulars know for a fact that your man was, but I hear it so often, well hell, I just had to blog about it! http://notablepath.blogspot.com/2010/10/myths-about-paths.html

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  111. Aww, I missed Jesse's comeuppance and subsequent tantrum? Shit.

    Umm... you're fundamentally weak, Jesse, and you'll never amount to anything? You're a self-deluding pseudointellectual priss?

    Ah... I got nothing.

    Thrilled, though, that I'm a verb now. Thanks, Anon. :)

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  112. @Notable: Depends how you define "human", I suppose. Always glad to make someone grin, though. Mildly disappointed (though not fully surprised) that the Periques were not fully to your liking. I am, however, satisfied that I've at least gotten you onto a non-light. Mission Accomplished.

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  113. TNP.

    Damn, you sure have been plugging your blog a lot. Guess I should click one of those links someday.

    Naw, Jesse's not a pseudo-intellectual. He's just a softie, and perhaps mentally young and inexperienced, as he has said himself. Nothing wrong with that.

    I don't think a good sociopath would kick someone when they are down. Where's the pleasure in that?

    However, I do agree that immaturity and sociopathy can perhaps look similar. By the same coin, some would say that sociopathy is and form of immaturity. Regardless, this is why I can't say for sure whether anyone is a sociopath, exes included.

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  114. Self-deprecation is unbecoming, Jesse!

    Though hilarious to laugh it, whether or not it was meant to be humorous.

    I've never had women problems if regards to them taking advantage of me. In fact, I was so detached from the concept and acceptance of treating them as a 'protected class' that it earned me some grief during my teenage years. A person is a person, regardless of what their sexual organs happen to be, pre or post-op, too. No one's a special snowflake. Except me, perhaps.

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  115. Oops, I guess my last comment needs to be parsed. Half was for TNP, half was for PMS. You can figure it out.

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  117. @Postmodern Sociopath: I actually adored the Periques. They just won't be my go-to ciggie, just one to enjoy when I have time, not on my morning or afternoon breaks at work.

    @Medusa: Yeah, I'm shameless with the plugs. Then again, it saves me the time and annoyance of being redundant.

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  118. ditto. bitchy jealous little girls pee me off no end. my friends are definately not that type. keep your insecurities to yourself, that's what i say.


    however i agree with medusa, i don't think it's exclusive to women. the majority of people (men and women) don't need to be extremely intellectually exploratory, so they offer nothing revolutionary.

    i don't know, i don't think shallowness and cattiness is taught, you're born with it. lol

    lol my word verification this time is 'traffoo'. that just made me chuckle.

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  119. @Medusa: Hence my uncharacteristically half-hearted attempt at a lambasting. He's clearly already a bit crushed. What more could I hope to do? :D

    I suppose in the future I should make my sarcastic moments more clear. I think there's a punctuation mark for that.

    Ah, yes, the ever useful percontation point (or irony mark, if you like).

    Thus, "Umm... you're fundamentally weak, Jesse, and you'll never amount to anything⸮ You're a self-deluding pseudointellectual priss⸮"

    Failing that, I could take up your recent penchant for the HTML tags and use the classic block. But where would the fun be, then?

    @Notable: Fair enough. Still ever so curious about what I do to encourage revelry in inhumanity in you, though.

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  120. I've met and gotten to know a few women that were not remotely shallow or catty. I think their mothers and friends form these pesky traits. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it (until someone shows me otherwise)

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  122. Oh, dear. It seems my sarcasm was too much for the blog.

    "Failing that, I could take up your recent penchant for the HTML tags and use the classic block. But where would the fun be, then?"

    should read

    "Failing that, I could take up your recent penchant for the HTML tags and use the classic < sarcasm > < / sarcasm > block. But where would the fun be, then?"

    It read them as actual tags. Delightful.

    EDIT: Twice I've had to tweak that to make it display.

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  123. @Postmodern Sociopath: You (as well as M.E.) remind me to feed my sadistic side, and not try and ignore it. I spent most of my life pre-realization trying to dodge it, with tragic consequences.

    I spent most of my life thinking I was supposed to be 'good' and 'moral' and then realize that I'm such a good liar that I fooled myself. Knowing your condition helps, but managing is properly is important, and that means, for me, remembering how much I enjoy being a bastard sometimes, for jokes and or kicks, and making sure that side of me doesn't get neglected.

    Often times your responses reflect what I feel right off the bat, I'm just too used to filtering.

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  124. yes you are now a verb postmodern sociopath. though i don't know what you make of people saying they are PMSing when they do a grammar re-touch. it actually seems befitting, given how women can turn a little nazi-esque at that time of the month.

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  125. by the way, i still maintain that a highly effective and quick way of discovering a sociopath is to throw something a little hefty at them and see how much they flinch. ;)

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  126. PMS you gotta quit with all yer comment deletions and disclaimers. Well, you don't have to, but I'm making the recommendation.

    Minor grammar and spelling mistakes are okay, we all know you know all the language rules and what you are getting at.

    Are you somewhat OCD? I mean that seriously.

    Back in the old days (you know, way back in like, the winter of 2010), comment deletion usually pointed to some sort of drama going on.

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  127. @Anon 11:30 PM: The whole PMS thing is an unfortunate holdover from a particularly annoying troll who took a shine to me. I prefer PS if an abbreviation is called for, for obvious reasons (the most personally grating being that Postmodern is a single word, so there's no reason to abbreviate it PM). But I don't take any particular offense at it. Most of the regulars say Postmodern (minus my minute minx, Medusa), anyway, but it's of no great concern. Just a handle, after all.

    @Notable: How thrilling. I do enjoy being a properly villainous influence.

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  128. Here's a good quasi-sociopath/confidence test which I just tried on some poor soul:

    Eye contact. No smile or expression, just hold eye contact. The weaker/less comfortable person will look away first.

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  129. Hey, I'm more of an hour minx.

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  130. I attempt proper grammar, spelling word usage, et cetera, but have dysgraphia, which unfortunately occurs with typing, too. Elementary school was not terribly pleasant when we had to learn cursive handwriting
    -_-

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  131. @Medusa: Maybe in some circles, but eye contact has strong ties to some cultural backgrounds. Where I initially grew up, looking another boy/man in the eye was a good way to get your own bruised.

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  132. @Medusa: I wouldn't say I have OCD, no. I don't feel as if something is horribly amiss if I don't correct myself, I'm not driven my some uneasy compulsion, etc. I'd just rather have everything that I write appear as it does in my head. As you say, I know all the rules. You don't start miscounting money in Monopoly just because you think you'll look like a nerd, do you?

    I'm simply a creature of habit, and an academic besides. As it happens, proper grammar is one of my habits. I can't fully comprehend why it's such an interesting point of discussion, myself. It's as if it offends people that I know my native tongue's rules.

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  133. haha, 'PM' is definately anal but i love that. in every sense of the word. hehe
    stay anal my friend. it's classy. that's the word.

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  134. Good point, TNP. Works well in the middle class sector of the good ol' US of A, though.

    Test does not necessarily apply to those on the Asperger's spectrum.

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  135. I used to be quite OCD about grammar myself, about presentation in general to be exact. I've grown more impatient lately, though, and just want to get the thoughts out quickly.

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  136. And do vomity stuff like post multiple posts in a row.

    If posts had an edit function here, though, I'd be all over it. On other forums I frequent I'm an insane re-editor. Like re-editing a simple post up to 10 times.

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  137. omg i just realised why my brother has always been very ahem, methodical, no i'll just say anal, cos he is a wee bit of a sociopath himself. i love him lots but he is hilarious sometimes. i myself have my own habits etc so i can't really talk.

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  138. And just to feed the wolves (and because I love the irony mark), I suppose it should have read:

    "It's as if it offends people that I know my native tongue's rules⸮"

    I'm not intentionally a dick about it, it's just sort of second nature at this point. I don't really think about grammar as I write; it's just how I express myself. Then when I go back and read it, I notice some little thing is off, so I just fix it. Unless it's really obscure or pointless. Then I'll just leave it alone.

    And agreed. If the posts had an edit function, you'd never see a deleted post from me again. :/

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  139. On an unrelated note, what is the sudden obsession with the word anal in the comment section? Do you all have the same Word of the Week Calendar or something⸮

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  140. I think maybe the character map could be useful here.

    Like, "♫" could be the sarcasm tag.

    A tiny box just doesn't do sarcasm justice.

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  141. ♫ The world is so wonderful and I love being an optimist! ♫

    or

    ♠ PMS is a pseudo-intellectual.♠

    GET IT? Calling a spade a spade?

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  142. ok PM. is that box thing really your new thing? do you really need another piece of decor in your text? really? i never knew it existed until you dredged it up from wherever. I STILL DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DELETE MY COMMENTS WHEN THEY'RE CRAP!

    how do you delete?

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  143. That's unfortunate. I guess you lack that character in your Unicode map. :(

    Explained here.

    It's basically just a reversed question mark.

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  144. Anonymous, to delete you must become onymous. Just get a Blogger account or other Google account.

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  145. I might just be that my browser's default font doesn't have that character. Too bad.

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  146. sarcasm should be this

    :O

    cos it's an exaggeration of sorts.

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  147. I have such an illogical disdain for emoticons. It's like those little faces are belittling my very real feelings ♫.

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  149. I've decided to use the snark mark (.~), since it's universal. Problem solved.~

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  150. ok i'm off. bye peeps.

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  151. Even the best people readers only have an 80%-90% success rate or so. I would roughly estimate myself a 95% for facial expressions and upper body language, but significantly lower (80%-85% at best) for subtle lower body language. This averages to 90% overall,

    "Also, 98.6% of statistics are made up on the spot, 73.2% of people believe them because they're idiots, and 86.99996969444879% are actually stupid enough to think their approximations are accurate, and 90% of people think they're being funny or clever when they're not." LOL! the best! I'll say it again THE BEST!!-say it all end it all-respond for statements like the above.

    Regretfully I must conclude that Jesse was DickDangled inspite of my initial hopes of a "mutually assured deception" scenario. Too bad DanglerDick's paranioa about the possibility of being hoisted by his own petard got the better of him - prematurely ending the strange little warmth growing in my belly about this forum.

    Medusa said...
    ...or I could just make it easier on myself and just try to date Daniel.


    How did you know I was cringing? ;-).I know it's hard in such an environment but get some grip on the hormones there.

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  152. Regretfully I must conclude that Jesse was DickDangled inspite of my initial hopes of a "mutually assured deception" scenario. Too bad DanglerDick's paranioa about the possibility of being hoisted by his own petard got the better of him - prematurely ending the strange little warmth growing in my belly about this forum.

    Who's paranoid now?

    Goddamn you are horrible at trolling. And projection.

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  153. Never said I wasn't.. Not such a bad thing around here I'm beginning to learn.

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  154. Paranoia is often stems from one's own crimes.

    It is clear, though, that Jesse is not real.

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  155. Its' not that complicated - most people get a little paranoid after being chewed off once too often. They should get really paranoid after being baited and then chewed of with relish. Thats Cruelty. Don't know where DanglerDick's comes from though..Am I, or You-Real? Oh I see - Jesse is the imaginary favorite-chew-toy invented by you guys to proove your points?

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  157. @Medusa: Er... if you say so. I'm always paranoid, not frantically nor apparent, just enough to be ever vigilant.

    I read into everything, from subtle actions, to the possibility of double entendres where others may see none. At worst, I'm wrong. At best, I'm not screwed over/dead.

    Then again, when you've had a few people try to kill you, ranging from close friends to complete strangers, (and both pretty much unprovoked) you tend not to discount any possibility in regards to, well, anything.

    It might be considered unhealthy to be paranoid, but it's kept me breathing, so I think I'll stick with what works.

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  158. @Medusa

    When I think of paranoia, I think of irrational anxiety, fear run amok. My comment about people here taking on other handles reflects a very real pastime for some of the commenters.

    Having said that, Jesse’s naivety was so strong that yeah, I couldn’t quite believe it either. I still don’t. Yet, I went with it as if it were real anyway. All that talk about monsters… I mean really, who talks like that outside of the bible belt?

    @Jesse

    Dude… if you happen to have been sincere in your comments and you were hurt, then I really did do you a favor. Take it as such, snap out of your simple minded naivety and grow a pair. But if you are a troll playing super sweet a guy… nicely done. Very consistent. It would be a good way to develop a character for a work of fiction maybe or perhaps you were just bored. Or was that not your intention?

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  160. jesse was very likely sincere and the fact that you guys jump to conclusions (and yes i said jump to conclusions) is probably the only pet hate i have about sociopathy. (lol, i like the other stuff apparently).
    you basically suspect everyone is a threat and can't see, because you are so calculating yourselves, that there are genuine innocents out there, nice people to the core who don't have any interest in winding you all up as you do in winding your enemies up.

    it's the only pet-hate i have cos when you make false accusations, you will lose the trust and affection of the other person, esp if they don't understand you're a socio and can't help but hold everyone with suspicion.

    just saying.

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  161. you basically suspect everyone is a threat and can't see, because you are so calculating yourselves, that there are genuine innocents out there, nice people to the core who don't have any interest in winding you all up as you do in winding your enemies up.

    Are you the empath’s empath? If you are, I think I’ll start calling you Deanna Troi.

    Anyway, you could be right. I do see other people as potential threats. I see everyone as self interested actors (not the Hollywood kind). I believe most everyone, outside of a few genuine saints, will do what they must if they perceive it is in their interest to do so, up to and including inflicting much pain on me. Most normals define their best interest as obeying their conscience or behaving pro-socially or doing the right thing, etc. I could easily be on the receiving end of a painful action if a normals’ conscience dictated it. The difference between me and them is that they will spin their hurt inducing behavior in their own minds to fit their conception of themselves as moral agents. They’ll justify themselves to themselves.

    I actually do believe there are saints. People who are unconditionally altruistic. I believe those people are relatively rare though. Most normals are not saints. They’re just muddled and inconsistent in their thinking. They long to stay with the herd. Jesse, if he was real, fits into this category.

    In any event, other people don’t become actual threats in my mind until they’ve done something to warrant that designation.

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  162. Okay I don't know what's going on with this whole I don't exist thing, but I do. I have this sick need to keep returning to this blog, I don't know what it is. Yes I do, infatuation. I gain knowledge here, and good conversational discussions. I know I am naive in what I say, and that is intimidation. I write simply even though in my head it sounds more adult. I'm wirking on that.

    I am a hypocrite, okay, and yes, I was sincerely hurt. As I had stated to M.E. in some of the things I was writing to him, I am sensitive, always have been. This is something that I have always had to fight with. Perhaps it was foolish of me to come here trying to "preach" my ways, but I never meant any harm by it. I'm not playing super nice guy. I'm JUST A NICE GUY. Is that so hard to believe? I don't like confrontation, and I do like to forgive and forget. I don't see that happening with this place though. Forgiving, ofccourse, if that makes me weak, then fine. Forgetting, no.

    I will use this experience as a way to grow though,you did help me more than you know Daniel. I still happen to admire certain traits to sociopaths, but it doesn't mean that I have to like them. Maybe it is just my time to move on. If I don't like what's being said, naturally I always have the choice to leave. I figured for my sanity that would be the best thing to do.

    for the record, I have no clue what a troll is.

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  163. I will use this experience as a way to grow though,you did help me more than you know Daniel.

    That’s the spirit Jesse! I think somebody up thread said not to take me personally. They were right. Ultimately, it’s never personal.

    Work on that sensitivity thing. It makes you one great big open sore, which in turn makes you needlessly vulnerable.

    And I said I wasn’t Dr. Phil! Man was I wrong!

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  164. Daniel:
    I will, and I am trying to get better with this. I'm dealing with shit outside of this blog too, coming here to get away (I know, ironic place to get away)and then getting verbally and emotionally destroyed was not something I was prepared for.

    It's hard not to take you seriously. I take a lot seriously. Perhaps that is another fault of mine.

    With that being said, all is fine. I am getting over it, as usual displayed irrational emotions through the internet, and I will simply move on. I do want to show you guys my paper. You'd be shocked to see what I specifically wrote about you.

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  165. PS, I do hope that when you become more of a writer you can explain or perhaps better elaborate on how it must be sociopath trickery that encouraged the human race's psychiatrists to diagnose humanity itself as: psychopath. I'm sure there's some light in which we can agree that's how this all started.

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  166. Chorus;

    Medusa said...
    Heh, so are we converting people now?

    Kinda weakens the advantages of being a sociotype, eh?

    Aerianne said...
    Okay, that almost made me get misty-eyed, Daniel.

    Postmodern Sociopath said...
    See, this is why Daniel's the lady's man of the blog, and I'm just the grammar Nazi. :P

    ..and so the story goes on...and on

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  167. See what I mean Jesse? It's comments like the one you just left. Why on earth were you not prepared for being emotionally destroyed? More importantly, how is it that a few comments on the internet from someone you have never met and will never meet can emotionally destroy you anyway?

    Feel free to take my bitch slap comment seriously. I was being serious. Not emotional. Just serious. Of course, I don't give a damn about how you feel. The important insight for you in that is, why should you care what I say anyway? I am quite literally nothing to you. Once we're all done commenting on this blog, you will forget about me and I you. That's how it goes. So why would my words or PoMo's words or anybody else's words on here, emotionally destroy you? That's actually a real question Jesse. Why. Do. You. Care?

    Show me your paper. I'm curious. Is this the part where you reveal that you are in fact Ukan and that you have written a scathing and savagely insightful report on internet commenters like yours truly? Again, I'd find that most impressive.

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  168. I almost laughed at the "Army of Sociopath" result of the idea.

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  169. LOL!Keep going! Everthing here's just the perfect material to start a topic on Stockholm syndrome

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  170. Are you speaking of physical pain Daniel? Or do you have other painful actions that you fear could be used against you?

    Also what would be the system you would use to judge them unconditionlly altruistic?
    And for lack of a better analogy, where would that put them in the 'food chain'? Anal ogy I worked the word of the day in.


    Also you said ' they'll justify themselves to themselves'
    Guess that's everyone, not going to find anyone especially here breaking the mold.

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  171. What?! No, I'm not UKan. He let me have it at one point or another also. And I don't know why I care...I'm lying, I do, but unless I can discuss it other than this place, perhaps email, I'm not going to discuss it here.

    My paper isn't negativity towards sociopaths, even though most experiences with them are. Like most, I just want to understand them, you. I was hoping through this project of mine, and interacting with them through internet, and unintentionally in person, I can understand. I do believe that people who have dealt with a sociopath on a personal level understand them more than doctors, and I wanted to give my insight. It's something I'm interested in, and ended up getting too involved. Sue me.

    I have to go, I'm late for class. If you do really want to know Daniel, I can tell you outside of this place. I already told M.E., I can tell you too.

    GagReflex:
    Who ARE you? Your rants make less sense than mine apparently do? Nevermind, I don't want anymore issues with this.

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  172. WIK said, Are you speaking of physical pain Daniel? Or do you have other painful actions that you fear could be used against you?

    No. Just pain in general. People will hurt me or attempt to hurt me if they believe it is in their best interest to do so: they’ll lie, cheat, steal, backstab, demote, betray, murder, etc. Most normals won’t call it stealing or cheating or murder for instance. They’ll reframe their actions with words like justice and just war and leveling the playing field and so on. But the actions and the results will nevertheless be the same.

    Also what would be the system you would use to judge them unconditionlly altruistic?

    By unconditional altruism, I refer to kind and compassionate behavior that is not attached to any particular condition or expectation of repayment. These kinds of people won’t stop helping if you don’t say thank your or stroke their ego or join their religion, or happen to not be a member of their family, etc. They’ll help no matter what, up to and including getting themselves killed.

    Also you said ' they'll justify themselves to themselves'
    Guess that's everyone, not going to find anyone especially here breaking the mold.


    I had this conversation with someone before. I don’t do the justification thing, not even to myself. To justify means to make right, and that usually has a moral quality to it. I don’t morally justify my actions to myself or anyone else, unless it suits my purpose to do so.

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  173. It seems Wish I Knew is a fan of loopholes as well.

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  174. Jesse, ask M.E. for my email address. He'll give it to you.

    And btw, you asked what a troll was? Gaggadoodle is an example. A troll's comments don't really have to make sense. Communication is not their purpose. Distraction and attention getting is.

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  175. It is truly a sad and tragic reality out there if anyone seeking comprehension for their struggles has to come here to be abused and tormented by the very people that they paradoxically admire and are apalled with at the same time. They leave and write believing/hoping that they have become stronger and ready to cope with the reality that was always theirs to define with in the first place hard as it may sound, that was always malleable because of the nature of humans. Thats irony.

    "He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man"

    What was school like for you back in the days DanglerDick? How many kids did you trash-mindfuck and then became protector-mentor from the "harsh realities of life" in return for your lunch?

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  176. Not a fan of loopholes. Unless their mine.
    I find them ironic when used.

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  177. You go Wish I knew! Get your subconscious on! I won't call you a hypocrit as I'm sure your honesty reflects you having admitted it yourself at least once. But do not think you're not welcome here, I am a fan of both your loopholes and my own! If it were not for the recent comment about emoticons.. you would be given one.

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  178. m.e. said...
    Sometimes I think to myself, if my life depended on it, would it be easier for me to prove that I am a sociopath, or that I am not.


    a definitive sociopath test could bring peace of mind, but it would probably turn into a witch hunt.

    also, research has shown that thoughts can physically alter the brain. if so, then brain scans may not be the way to do it as they would prove nothing. genetics maybe?

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  179. Is it lying cheating stealing backstabbing demoting betraying murdering ect. If its done for manipulation or revenge? What if its because the other is naive then its their fault because they were ripe for the picking? Would it be okay if they tryed to assert themselves more intellegent then to fall for that?

    Here's my point what ever our reasons if we have done it to someone and justified it we are hypocrite's. Self preservation is one thing but should it be at the cost of another.

    And what's the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy?

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  180. daniel birdick

    'Are you the empath’s empath? If you are, I think I’ll start calling you Deanna Troi.'

    lol. and yes.

    (on normals)'They’re just muddled and inconsistent in their thinking.'

    yep. i am glad you make the distinction between certain types of empaths. in a certain way, i relate more to sociopaths than to neurotypicals, but that's another thing!

    there's something about being on the extremes that forces you to sift through a lot of the bullshit. of course, cos we are diametrically opposed, it does mean we may really disagree on certain things. the thing that I can count on though is that you probably won't descend into dogma. i may even hate your stance on a particular subject, but i won't as you say be able to 'justify' that hatred like many would try to do.

    also, i think it helps greatly that extremes tend to live in the moment. they don't care for tradition much (don't live in the past), and this helps them face and accept the reality that's in play at any given time. i think it makes for a far more streamlined life focus, even if that focus is seek and destroy! lol.

    Deanna (thanks, i couldn't think of a name before).

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  181. And btw, you asked what a troll was? Gaggadoodle is an example. A troll's comments don't really have to make sense. Communication is not their purpose. Distraction and attention getting is.

    CAUTION:Do Not Read this if You are prone to distraction and averse to attention getting.

    I don't suppose you would care to elaborate and enlighten me as to how my unacceptable erring ways with regards to my posts on this thread can be purged and how my trolling soul can be lead back towards the true Path of Light Mr DanLickaDick?

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  182. And btw, you asked what a troll was? Gaggadoodle is an example. A troll's comments don't really have to make sense. Communication is not their purpose. Distraction and attention getting is.

    CAUTION:Do Not Read this if You are prone to distraction and averse to attention getting.

    I don't suppose you would care to elaborate and enlighten me as to how my unacceptable erring ways with regards to my posts on this thread can be corrected and how my trolling soul can be lead back towards the true Path of Light Mr DanLickaDick?

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  183. Wish I knew: I would have invited more loopholes into the discussion. Now I'll tell you I have invited betrayal before, just as a test and I played the part perfectly. I asserted my intelligence, as you say, and then allowed myself to play the part of the victim just to see if my predictions were correct as they were. Now, this person may blog about how they were able to fool me! Truth be told I sometimes miss the game before the stalemate...

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  184. you basically suspect everyone is a threat and can't see, because you are so calculating yourselves, that there are genuine innocents out there, nice people to the core who don't have any interest in winding you all up as you do in winding your enemies up.

    I've actually met several genuine, amazingly good people. That doesn't mean they weren't faultless, but they were definitely diamonds in the rough.

    We assess people, always. That doesn't mean we can't turn our backs to someone without looking over our shoulders every second.

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  185. WIK said, I don’t understand for first questions. I mean, I am fine with calling a lie a lie. I do it often IRL. I don’t understand the question because I don’t think in those terms. It’s not their fault for being themselves anymore than it is my fault for being me. There is no fault to be had in this scenario. I lie when it suits me to do so. They believe it or not. If they believe it, they help me (unwittingly) get whatever it is that I want. Some people do indeed have it coming, but those people have specifically done something to warrant my attention. In that sense, I do find those people at fault. All of the other people I’ve lied to are incidental.

    As for your main point, I can buy that. For instance, pro-lifers who are also pro-war. I find that a fascinating instance of psychological dissonance, especially since it’s glaringly obvious.

    Self preservation is one thing but should it be at the cost of another.

    Shoulds don’t matter in my book. If it costs someone else, it does. That’s just the way it goes.

    And what's the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy?

    I said something to someone else in another thread about this the other day. Here’s what I said:

    “Sociopath and psychopath are interchangeable terms precisely because there is a lack of empirically sound theoretical models to ground them both in reality. I know Hare’s model has wide acceptance, but as more and more people are pointing out, its basis on the prison population necessarily skew the results, very likely creating an incomplete picture. So ultimately, until more work is done, you are left with people using these terms in ways they think is best, given the information they have available to them and their own opinions about it. Not very objective true, but there you have it.”

    In other words, until further research is done, you decide if there is a difference based on your own educated guess.

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  186. @Deanna, nice, balanced comment. No fawning, no hating. As an exercise, I’d be curious to hear you name a specific issue that you are certain we wouldn’t agree on. Not interested in convincing you to be anything other than what you are. I am interested in seeing what would happen.

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  187. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  188. Jesse said that they are infatuated with. The S/P on this site and just wants to get an understanding of how and why you relate to normals the way you do.
    What caused you adverse reaction to him?
    All the non-socios have an infatuation in my opinion.

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  189. Dan: You were responding to my opinion that there can be an illustrated difference between a sociopath and psychopath, although you would first have to WANT to try the thought on for size. I will grab the abstract by the reigns and illustrate once more.

    1# Bernie Madoff: Easily a supposed sociopath however debatable.

    2# Bernie Madoff with a twist: Instead of conning his own children out of great sums of wealth and enjoying tahiti without them, he stabs them 76 times each and leaves their money on the dresser, but opens the dresser and models his daughter's lingerie.

    Now you tell me I am only allowed to be both.

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  190. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  191. I was driving to work this morning and i was really trying to think, what some one a sociopath? I mean i know i fit the profile to a tea but doesnt everybody look out for # one. I'm pretty sure the people i know maipulate others around for the gain wheather they know it or not, but, is it getting satisfaction from it that make some one a sociopath. Also whats the difference between sociopath and psychopath. My wife say dexter is a psycho but i say socio cause he can control his urges whereas a psycho has lost all control in my opoinion. One final note in my rant today, because of the way i am, some would say i overcompansate and do a lot for others that i dont need to. I constantly ask am i a bad person for looking out for myself and my wife says "your a good man why do you think your such a hoorible person" and its because i always feel like everything is an act all part of the show though i cant tell her that. Is that just me or any other self diagnosed socio's that have the same problem?

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  192. @Aerianne; It was a time sensitive post. I think the moment has passed and difficult to recapture.

    Anonymous said...
    I almost laughed at the "Army of Sociopath" result of the idea.
    October 22, 2010 7:51 AM


    This person SO got it. Cudos!! ;-)

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  193. @ daniel

    well, the most obvious and perhaps only real difference is that i can't stand cruelty, (let's just say the infliction of pain on another), of any kind, never have, never will. i can never stop being physically and emotionally affected by it, so i have to train myself to laugh at it (rationalise it), to kind of diffuse the negative way it makes me feel.
    i know all the while that it will always exist, and that just cos i can't stomach it, it doesn't mean i have the monopoly on what should or shouldn't be.

    i can't think of anything else at the moment... hmm...perhaps that's it. haha

    deanne.

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  194. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  195. totally forgot my 'own' name.

    it's deanna don't you know.

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  196. just to add,
    when i say rationlise it, I mean, simply understanding that others don't feel the way I do about pain and about inflicting it. and through that, i accept that it happens without getting high and mighty about it. religion and dogma heightens those feelings of indignation whilst stupidly forgetting that aggression is part and parcel of life and even serves important functions. i don't have to like it, I just get it.

    Deanna

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