Monday, July 15, 2013

Famous sociopaths: George Zimmerman?

So George Zimmerman. I get that some people think that he is a soulless sociopath who stalked Trayvon Martin like a predator might stalk his prey (especially since he didn't show the proper remorse?). Or maybe he just made a bad judgment call. Because I think everyone agrees that there are times when killing is "good" or efficient, e.g. death penalty, police using deadly force, or war. Moreover, many people can imagine a situation in which they themselves would kill (preschool class hostage situation?). And I think a lot of people think that this wasn't an efficient kill, but let's think about why. First we have to think about how to value someone's life.

Maybe it's their net benefit to society minus their net cost in terms of raw production/consumption. Several years ago one of my friend's mother died after a lengthy illness. I could not help but notice what I thought were efficiencies in this situation, with all of her stuff being divided up amongst her children.

Maybe we are more generous and we just look at production, so lifetime earning potential. For someone like Trayvon Martin, who was on his third suspension from school of the academic year at the time of the killing, maybe $1M and change? And I don't know much about Zimmerman, but he was living in a gated community, so maybe twice that (although he was 12 years older than Trayvon)?

Or maybe we think a better method of valuing life value of a statistical life ("VSL"). This is calculated by looking at how much of a monetary premium people require before they engage in risky behavior, like being an underwater welder. Using this valuation, the value of Trayvon's life would be significantly greater, probably closer to $10M than to $1M. And when you put it that way, it's hard to think that Trayvon's killing was worth $10M. Because let's guess that the risk of Zimmerman dying from the altercation was 20% (which I think is pretty generous). And when Zimmerman shot the weapon, risk of Trayvon dying was something like 40% (also generous to Zimmerman)? So now we have an expected loss of $4M for an expected savings of $2M (assuming that Zimmerman's life is roughly worth the same as Trayvon's). Not a good deal. So there turns out to be a huge social and personal cost to killing particularly as the standard of living has risen, which is maybe why we have see a big decrease in killing over the past 100 years? (See, even sociopaths know that killing is bad).

So yeah, Zimmerman seems to have exercised poor judgment. But once it got to the choice of pulling the trigger, didn't he probably just do what "felt right" in the moment? But this is the problem with empaths confusing objective assessments of the right/wrong thing to do with their own personal feelings on the matter. Because unless you believe the stalking sociopath theory of George Zimmerman, isn't he just a guy like you who acted on his feelings and turned out to be "wrong"? And his intentions were good, right? That should count for a lot? So no, I'm not surprised he got off because he did something that normal people do every day (well-intentioned acting on his gut), and if that were wrong than everyone would be wrong.

40 comments:

  1. I might suggest that the decrease in killings over the last 100 years is due to improved police methods after the fact, and that we are all much more heavily surveilled day to day. If someone disappears now, it is known immediately and even in a strange town where your face isn't known your cell phone is in touch with the network and your face is recorded in every store and your licence plate at every gas station.
    So to some extent the amount of killings is moderated by the reduced likelihood of getting away with it.

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  2. M.E., I know with your very busy schedule you have difficulity keeping
    up with currant events, but you have a few factual inaaccuracies about
    the Zimmerman case.
    Zimmerman was NOT the racist mad dog killer that the media made him out
    to be. He was in the process of being pummeled by a 6'2 powerful 17-year
    old.
    I can see why you're confused. The media is very skilled at shaping opinions.
    That's thier forte.
    Take the photograph that you displayed of Zimmerman. You culled that from
    the media. That is an especially unflattering photo taken years ago when
    he had a minor run in with the police. It was to make him out to be a
    brute. Travyon's photos on the other hand were all taken when he was
    13 years old and were intended to emphasize his childness. We were never
    shown a contempary photo of Trayvon.
    While much was made of the fact that Zimmerman wanted to be a cop, and
    that Zimmerman had called about other blacks in the past, nothing was
    allowed in the trial about Travyon"s prior activities namely his cell
    phone pictures of all the "booty" he acquired in prior robberies.
    And you'll recall that the media reporting was not only slanted in
    Travyon's favor, (Deempathsis of Zimmerman's injuries) but that the media
    dickered with the tapes of Zimmerman's phone call to police. This is just
    another case of the media creating the very stories it reports on.
    Totally one sided reporting. We don't hear a thing about black on white
    crime.
    Will double jeperady laws protect Zimmerman? Don't count on it.
    Civil rights shysters and corrupt politicans are already pushing for
    federal indictments. Even though Zimmerman is suppost to be home free,
    you can expect special legislative sessions to pass new laws to prosecute
    Zimmerman. He has one chance, and that is to leave this country as soon
    as he can.

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    Replies
    1. This is the dumbest comment ever. You are protecting a person who murdered an unarmed child. I hope one day you feel the Martin's pain.

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    2. That and the fact that you just blatantly made shit up to oppose the facts. You have a conspiracy to rival every fact.

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    3. He is a sociopath plain and simple !! He will use anything without remorse as long as it benefits him and make him look good. He contridicts himself everytime. I dont see the difference between him Diane Downs, OJ Simpson or Casey Anthony. He claims he was over powered by trayvon but he is able to pull a family out of a car. He claims he is scared yet he is showing his face in public. He had training in mixed martial arts but yet had to carry a gun ?

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    4. I've gathered and analyzed facts from this case from day one, almost obsessively, and while I don't care for Zimmerman, I agree with most of your post. Zimmerman may be a sociopath. Based on behaviors of Martin, he, too, may be a sociopath. Who knows. But the accusations that a child was murdered are empty and very prejudicial. It's worth noting, too, that being a sociopath is not wrong or bad, nor is it something you can choose. Even if one or both of these guys qualify, who cares? This is not a reason to hate although it might be a reason to be careful.

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  3. I think its great we have an Internet for vast numbers of people on both sides of this argument to spout out opinions on those involved that match their preconceived notions of what transpired without any idea as to what really happened. Last weekend there were over 50 shootings in Chicago, where's the outrage about that? Oh yeah it doesn't fit the narrative of anyone's rant.

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  4. He had good intentions. Yes, judged very superficially from the multitude of „good and righteous“ perspective out there. Odd position from someone who also accepts to be different, or is it only the statement from someone that wanted to be excepted in the moral indignation camp? Without the ability to feel what they feel?

    Concerning the rest, I wonder if you watched the trial or at least the closing arguments. Your little 4 versus 2 million attempt at life-value-arithmetry suggests it to me. Inspired by ultimately a manipulation? Welcome in the camp of the manipulated.

    All this reminds me of what you have to say about law in your book. And yes the book was somewhat disappointing apart from the family history which was somehow interesting, even considering that they would have been far more interesting from a multiple perspective view. More real? So a sociophat is nothing but a person well adopted to the ways of the world? That would be my one sentence summery. Hyperconform with the resultant feeling of never quite fitting in?

    About a year ago I read a book on criminology from 1939. To my utter surprise it contained a chapter on epilepsy, even petit mal. I guess that was the most important psychological profile in criminology at the time. There was no psychopat available at the time. Maybe?

    How about getting Jim to write a sequel growing up with a self-defined psychopat? I ask that since I appreciate an outsider's look on matters. Wasn't that how you defined him somewhere? What cost benefit equation would you put on his life? Leaving aside the manipulative four versus two minutes.

    Full disclosure: I had three dispensions from school. The first was based on the fact that I wore trousers in summer, forbidden to girls at my high school at the times. The second was when I slapped my chemics teacher on his hand when he tried to grope me, my reaction was instanteous, I had been lieing in wait to not allow him what he did to almost every other girl. The last was when I corrected a stupid statement by my religions teacher about Romanesque churches, it was simply wrong.

    I write all this that as someone decribed as unemotional, it often irritates people. I sometimes also have the wild desire to stab a dagger into someone's back as he or she walks away. So what? I know I will probably never do it. Anger is pretty emotional isn't it?

    What if I put your life value at less than a dollar? Would you ultimately be pleased I freed your spirit from a life in a in which you never quite fit in, in spite of surfaces?

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  5. What was Zimmermans reasoning in following him when he clearly saw the boy walking straight - as if walking home?

    He should have let him walk on without following him.

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  6. Replies
    1. Themes, the link did not work.

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    2. Can you post again? (and thanks, btw)

      Delete
    3. Ok I love this song Mach
      I think you will like it.

      Delete
    4. it's killing me bc I very much loved the last one but I am getting the same error message. I'd say it was my computer but I seem to be ok with everything else- maybe post a link?

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    5. thanks, Themes! I am starting to feel my age because I haven't heard of these guys- I think this would be great music to do hill repeats to. :)

      Delete
  7. Neither Zimmerman or Martin have any particular value to me. Without a draft, I doubt either one of them had much value to the state. Even with a draft Zimmerman is past draft age, and Martin was obviously worthless as anything except a sandbag. If you held Zimmerman hostage, I might pay a ransom of $1,000 just to spite the colored people.
    The truth is Florida changed the rules with the stand your ground law. Zimmerman was not required to leave when he had the chance and the result is a dead 17. Zimmerman followed the rules, why should he have remorse?

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    Replies
    1. he doesn't have to have remorse ffs. He has to be ass raped period the end.

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    2. Go get em big boy! Just keep in mind he has a gun and obviously is not afraid to use it.
      ANON @ 4:03.

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  8. Quoting my bud H.Z.: "To me it's about race and class... Zimmerman's dad is a Judge in FL... Anyway if that had been a black man"defending" himself from a white kid i believe the events would not have played out the way it did... He would not have been free to leave a scene of a murder in which he was the involved party... A tall black kid in a hoodie is enough in this country to get Ina panic and kill and it's looked over... It brings up for me all those people who've killed gay people and got off on the grounds of "gay panic"... This country is inherently racist and homophobic... Remember in Indiana just recently in 2013 it's now a felony to register for same sex marriage... Racist and Homophobic... A kid walking home from the store was killed and the killer was found innocent ...after causing the events that took place...anyway...it's sad... My 2 cents."-end quote

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    Replies
    1. Christ, are you even trying to be relevant to the post? What do you think Zimmerman's life is worth? If you subtract the value of Martin's life would you have a positive number? Does the tall black kid have some sort of intrinsic economic value since society values his life less then Zimmerman's? This place has been filled with Drones since ME came out of the closet.

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    2. Joe, I am with you. But your bud H.Z. gets one thing wrong. He may have been influenced by the camp of the fast dot connectors. Zimmerman Senior has a background in the military after having read his highly crazy book I would really like to know a little more about his career. He made it up into the department of defense. After that he was not a judge but a magistrate judge, and not in FL but in VA. He moved to Fl after his retirement. I suspect that his military connections are much more solid then his connections as a judge. I doubt Z's father had the influence to pull strings at least not in the SPD. One would need to know more about both Z. senior's and Wolfinger's miltary career to say anything about possible influence. The SPD could not arrest Zimmerman once he claimed self-defense, based on the new 2005 laws. As long as no one offers more solid information it feels as simple as that to me. The question what it would have looked like had the sides been turned is ultimately a hypothetical question, apart from the way Corey herself handled e.g. the Marissa Alexander case, but strictly Trayvon wouldn't have been able to defend himself with a gun at his age. The rumors he wanted get an illegal one himself are smoke and mirrors by the way, if you look closer.

      Concerning the herd response with the shallow cost-benefit-life-calculation argument the "self-defined-psychopaths" love so much here, as long as it concerns "others". In this special context "psychopathy" reminds me of some line of thought I was born into in post 1945 Germany and resulting life long obsessions. So yes, I somehow share your buddy's take. If bud is a shortened form of that word. ;)

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    3. You know the saying : "it's not what you know, rather it's WHO you know". My bud H.Z. just put that idea out there as far as Zimmerman's father being well-connected as to why his son got off. We've seen it many times over and over as how being either rich or having strong connections often plays a hand in whether the arms of true justice will happen.

      We also seem to forget that according to the jury, Zimmerman was found not guilty because there simply wasn't enough evidence not because they believe that he's innocent. We all know that Zimmerman is guilty but the evidence is not conclusive. Now the question whether or not he's a psychopath or sociopath is subject to interpretation. Some people think he's a cold calculating killer, others think Zimmerman is nothing more than a small-dicked schoolyard bully with a gun, and others see him as a hero sending a message. Zimmerman decided to take the law into his own hands and Trayvonn Martin lost his life that night. We don't truly know what happened. Mr. Zimmerman may be free, but for the rest of his life he will be looking over his shoulder and sleeping with one eye open. He will never be safe. That not a way to live.

      But here's something that unfortunately black people in America need to understand : racism in this country STILL exists. If the election of President Obama led to the response of the rise of over 1,600 right-wing hate groups AND the bigoted tea party was not a wake up call, then the Zimmerman trial should be.
      Also, I'm sure many of you have been reading the news lately that throughout the country in many metropolitan areas, the rate of smartphone thefts has gotten so large due to the global and very profitable black market demand for them. These thefts have turned violent resulting in people being killed for the devices. Many of these criminals committing these violent acts of robbery unfortunately while could be anyone are black with whites coming in second.
      https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

      These are hard facts.

      I'm not racist and coming from a mixed race background just as Zimmerman, I'm not looking at race as to why he got off. I'm simply following the evidence and what the facts are that have been disclosed to the public. The same goes for the FBI statistics.

      When the issue of guns and the 2nd amendment are brought up, I firmly believe in a person's right to bear arms, also responsibility when it comes to owning that weapon, and also the type of weapon. An army assault tank is a vehicle yet we are not allowed to own one, so why does an average person need something like an AK-47 or a semi automatic rifle? It makes no sense to me.

      That being said, because the cops can't be everywhere, and because I live in an area that is middle class, and criminals have become brazen in home invasions and even commit robberies in broad daylight, why should I live in fear? It is within my right to defend and protect my home, the people I love and everything that I have worked very hard for from someone looking to take what does not belong to them.

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  9. having poor judgment....ok would it have made him seem like a better guy had he just said the truth...(i acted impulsively, i was in the throes of sthg, and i truly thought the black kid was a baddy. My bad I guess. it was an honest mistake ... "

    what would have happened then?

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  10. "The most dreadful thing one can do is be honest! There are occasions when the truth is called for, but one must learn to differentiate."

    ok well then intimacy is flawed. one cannot share every part. it isdestructive,

    i had narcissist bf tell me truths and they were dumb to tell me, however i cannot help thinking theses truths were strategically planted bec he knew my psychology. I prob give him too much credit but he was very sneaky.

    now what?

    DB is right. it is best to take life at face value. it is better to believe what another says even if you know it is a lie.. how do you know it is a lie??? you just do.

    and you are to put blinders on when you can see the truth. But you are fucked either way aren't you? Because sooner or later THEIR truth will present itself so fucking innocently. And you can tell yourself all day all night that you knew it was the truth all along, but you decided to ignore it in orderr to get your intimacy on, and you get fucked because you ignore someone else's hidden truth..

    know what? if that is all true, then life is just one practice exercise in the event oneday there is true trth and beauty.

    I can prepare myself for the real thing all whilst living in a lie situation.

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    Replies
    1. people can't take the truth that's why they want to believe my lies

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    2. and that's why people lie just as much as psychopaths

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    3. and aspies are totaly wierd

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  11. The one criteria that fits Zimmerman as a sociopath: He had to win.

    He was tired of those 'punks' getting away by the time the cops came. He was off-duty, he was told to stop following the kid but.. he had to win. He couldn't look stupid again, couldn't lose. So he pursued. He wouldn't have if not for his gun, somehow carried along while off duty; He knew whatever happened, he was covered, and he'd get the kid, he'd win this round.

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  12. Three things.

    One.

    If you're a guy with a gun and you're being threatened by someone that's taller and more physically intimidating than you, the first thing you do is broadcast the fact you have a gun if you're afraid for your life.

    The fact that there was an altercation at all is indicative of some kind of dialogue started by Zimmerman that resulted in a physical altercation because he felt like he was in control: not the behavior of a victim.

    Zimmerman had to close the distance between them, and Zimmerman had to let things devolve to a fight without involving his firearm in order for things to play out like they did.

    Two.

    "A man always has two reasons for doing anything: a good reason and the real reason." - J. P. Morgan

    As Zimmerman's case shows, good intentions are a powerful way to cover your ass in a complex and dangerous situation by shifting blame to 'not being in control of yourself but wanting things to work out well.' By making an appeal to people's emotions about trying to be a civilian authority figure in a big scary world and getting beat on, he won substantial sympathy with his audience because they felt he was in the right. The power of 'good intentions' is that everyone wants their story to have a happy ending and it's easy to relate to that. It's a common social script for a reason.

    What was going through Zimmerman's head and what he said was going through his head are two very different things, and the latter was carefully crafted to seem more reasonable and easy to sympathize with than what actually happened. People are always inventing reasons for their selfish behaviors that seem reasonable and easy to relate to. To my mind, the fact Zimmerman's defense basically resorted to 'good intentions' is a fairly sure indicator that he went into the confrontation looking to demonize Martin, projecting some kind of imagined threat

    Three.

    Relative value of life's a useless metric even if you're trying to judge life and death situations.

    People die all the time, but our American media focuses our attention on only a very small percentage of high-profile incidents. Trying to say one person's delinquency is worth more than another person's adherence to the rules is basically a measure of that person's social standing, and not any value or lack thereof inherent to them. And deciding if a person should die by their social standing and projected future profits wouldn't hold up under extended data analysis, I have a feeling.

    But then again, people can always be counted on to try and find reasons for their behaviors after they develop them so they can justify them to others.

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    Replies
    1. projecting some kind of imagined threat* which he then shot dead, symbolically affirming his ability to change the world and protecting his reputation.

      Everybody's got an opinion. The difference is that what this community calls 'empaths', try to find reasons why their opinions are right after forming them. In sociopaths and other mentally 'aberrant' individuals I've rarely noticed this behavior, which generally makes them less irritating to talk to.

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    2. "To my mind, the fact Zimmerman's defense basically resorted to 'good intentions' is a fairly sure indicator that he went into the confrontation looking to demonize Martin, projecting some kind of imagined threat."

      It was an interesting mix between a highly emotional good and righteous argument supported by a league of family and friend and an intellectual argument in the closing. Unfortunately the prosecution did not give the jury much data to see through this manipulation. Georgie's reenactment scream? His tiny little help me, help me yelps? Oh, that can be so very different to all the experts out there, a dance almost, a performance never quite the same? Dr. Doddington.

      This was ultimately not O'Mara/West's success but Robert Hirschhorn's who was good at getting out anyone that may have looked a little deeper O'Mara's misrepresentations. Apart from that the success rests solidly on a weak prosecutions whose hands were bound to a certain extend.

      I understand now perfectly well that the jury always presented as democratic is ultimately easy to manipulate.

      I see we are in a community here who simplifies human matters into empath, or evil, and psychopath the much better self-interested camp, as anyone should be. The world out there is slightly more complex. How high is the Ayn Rand psychology fan base in here? ;) But I understand that many here love Fogen,as we call him. Forget his name, he is a nobody. He will remain a nobody even if he wins his case against ABC, if so he will be a rich nobody. But a nobody nevertheless.

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  13. ".... because he did something that normal people do every day (well-intentioned acting on his gut), ..."

    What is well intentioned about SHOOTING SOMEONE THROUGH THE HEART?

    What is well intentioned about having a gun loaded with HOLLOW POINTS?

    Normal people every day do NOT go shooting others because of "acting from the gut". Normal people have a CONSCIENCE that tells them, stop this is WRONG.

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  14. I think Zimmerman was--and will continue to be--propelled by fear and self-loathing, which obviously puts him out of contention for "Sociopath of the Year." For one thing--he wasn't lazy or parasitic enough. He took MMA classes to act in "self-defense." A sociopath worth their salt would realize that such physical exertion was worthless in the long run. And, another thing, he got out of the car and followed Martin--again, he was out to prove something. He was definitely on a power trip, but he was trying to prove this power to someone other than himself.

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  15. I don't believe Zimmerman's intentions were good. Why would someone concern themselves with other people being the target of criminals? Police do it because they are paid to, but why would a citizen concern themselves with other people being targets. I don't believe in so called altruism, I believe everyone acts out of self interest, even when acting charitable. So what was George deriving from the process? George was pissed off with the system, he had already complained about the police force and their internal corruption. He regularly rang 911 to report suspicious activity. This was a man wanting to stitch up a criminal, George wanted to punish one of them. He had enough of having to play by the rules while the criminals played by their own. His motivation was REVENGE. He wanted to punish the system for it's inefficiency, it's corruption, it's apathy. Ironically, it was this system that let him go free after he murdered a boy for the crime of walking in public. George wasn't scouting the neighbourhood regularly because he cared about his fellow citizens, he was looking for payback. It was true, George had some fantasy about being BATMAN, he desperately longed for the approval of his father the JUDGE. Well, if George was looking to get his fathers attention, he sure achieved that. George is the worst kind of wanna be cop, the kind who can't tell a real criminal from a non criminal, and couple that with being a pathetic weakling, he is the last type of person that should be artificially emboldened with a firearm.

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  16. If he kills a few more, you'll know he has the taste for blood.

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  17. George Zimmerman is a pedator. He killed Trayvon in order to do what he does best and that is feed from a victim. He is not long for this world. It sure will be a lot safer without him. A lowlife back stabbing piece of garbage.

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