Tuesday, March 15, 2011

Guest post:Daredevils and unflinching professionals

Symbiosis
1. Biology . the living together of two dissimilar organisms, as in mutualism, commensalism, amensalism, or parasitism.

Are empaths and Sociopaths capable of a symbiotic relationship? I guess the real question is: what type of relationship are empaths and socios capable of?

From an empath's side, it's often deeply damaging. From the socio's standpoint, it's frequently beneficial. But there's room for many things in between (or is there?). Many could be easily called parasitism, while others are intriguing and, not surprisingly, atypical mutualist relationships. This is to say sometimes people are good to each other, and sometimes bad. In a lot of ways. We could call it in terms of pathological or healthy relationships.

For a healthy relationship to work, both sides must benefit. Each person must walk out feeling better, greater, fulfilled. At least to some degree. Maybe there's a way to marriage the two expectations. 'Functioning psycopath' is a commonly used term. Some psychiatrists say sociopaths have good traits for law enforcement, firefighting and other risk-taking professions. They certainly make good thinkers. Often playing the devils' advocate and criticising society and its solipsismic morals, they have a distanced point of view that provides insightful counterpoints to societal inquiry.

The challenge: is it possible a society where sociopaths can be themselves without third party damage and empaths can cast aside the hipocrisy and the witch hunts?

125 comments:

  1. Yes. On your first day of school, your Mom puts your name and your pd id on your chest so that others will have a choice as to whether or not they will play with you.

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  2. I don't really get the dramatic's of Witch Hunt.
    If your not committing crimes against humanity then your not going to be hunted.
    And hjgh functioning blend in to the point that their not reconizable.

    If you care to change this atmosphere of being hunted, concentrate your efforts on the young that show signs of real trouble. You talk of nuturing making a difference show them how to apply your unique insights into greatness.

    The heroic effort would be would be well noticed. Instead it's normals and empaths working on it well past the damage when their in trouble or incarcerated.

    Your the only ones that can make a substantial difference in how your perceived. Use your ego toward wanting to do something no normal can do.


    And can a socio and an empath or normal have a fullfilling relationship?
    They already do.

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  3. "The challenge: is it possible a society where sociopaths can be themselves without third party damage and empaths can cast aside the hipocrisy and the witch hunts?"

    I cant believe the shit I'm hearing. Sociopaths arent these poor downtrodden people who sit aroung crying about how much everyone else hates them. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We have a bad reputation because of things we do. I've literally wrecked people lives. I've done all sorts. Shit that you people probably wouldn't believe. I am great person but I know I'm not a nice person, and I'm comfortable with that. wearing masks isnt hard for me. Lying and pretending doesn't stress me out. In fact I enjoy it and I never feel the need to break free and "be myself". Lets save all the bullshit for the real world and say whatever we like here.

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  4. is it because i is psychopathMarch 15, 2011 at 4:25 AM

    how can you harass me baby
    when all I ever wanted was to destroy you :'(

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  5. LOL. I agree with Misanthrope.
    Anyway, this symbiotic harmonious thing - life thrives on destruction and creation alike. Let's not forget that.
    Utopia? Please...
    Life is in the challenge, take that away and new challenges will be sought after.

    This witch hunt thing goes over my head -what witch-hunt? I won't even bother suggesting examples...

    The question should be this - why are some people hell-bent on total peace and harmony? The illusion this engenders is what makes people truly nuts.

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  6. have i completely missed the point of this post? I'm too tired to tell. meh. whatevers. check ya later peeps.

    bloody neighbours won't shut it so i can sleep. grrrr

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  7. Hahaha. Take a look at MEs twitter page everyone. I'm on it.

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  8. "Why are some people hell-bent on total peace and harmony? The illusion this engenders is what makes people truly nuts."

    Hmmm, I don't know that most people are so keen on "total peace and harmony" so much as they're keen on minimising their own emptiness and anxiety in positive and negative ways by trying to eliminate their uncertainties.

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  9. "The challenge: is it possible a society where sociopaths can be themselves without third party damage and empaths can cast aside the hipocrisy and the witch hunts?"

    I think this is probably one of the most ridiculous sentences I have ever read on this blog.

    How laughable the idea of a predator (sociopath) complaining about being the victims of predation (witch hunts). Sociopaths as innocent victims? The good guys are the bad guys? A sociopath taking a moral stance? The moral ones are really the amoral ones? What? Are you kidding me?

    Come on, get real.

    Thank you for having some grip on reality, Misanthrope.

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  10. Solipsistic figment of my own imaginationMarch 15, 2011 at 4:53 AM

    See Bitch, your reality barely merits a yawn.

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  11. I think Misanthrope is missing the point. The problem of being a sociopath is not about being "poor and downtrodden", it is about being expendable. Yes, expendable. Right now when most everyone, empath and socio alike, is busy being a piggy-pig forcing their way to the trough and shoving their nose in there to get a big snort of slop, yeah, being good at being selfish IS good. But when the shit hits the fan and people need to revert back to the way man evolved which is as natural collaborators who are emotionally in tune with each other's needs, non-empathic fakers who are only in it for themselves just won't make it because they'll stick out like a dandelion and will be cast aside. I think the more self aware socios understand that potential scenario, hence some of the questions seen here.

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  12. Those are some choice quips there on twitter Misanthrope. The fins thing, of course, was in bad taste, but pretty damn clever. You'd be fired from Aflack for saying that shit.

    This twit: Ever notice how the ones who bother to say, "I'm a decent human being," are the ones who most definitely are not?

    Very true words, in my experience.

    "Now I run from anyone who has to tell me what they are," as my ex's ex once said to me.

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  13. Overheard a toddler say she wanted to see dragons and pigs at the zoo. I also remember becoming disenchanted with the pervasiveness of lies.

    Interesting.

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  14. I can't really talk too much about the article, but I also can't really call mainstream humanity as mostly "empaths". I'm kind of with the psychopath on this one, to an extent EVERYONE really is faking it. I only permit the existance of archetypes in cases of rarity.

    Here's what I'll contribute: Your psychopath % per population is about the same as your empath % per population. Everyone else is left over. What's the argument? 90-98% is what's left over? Most of those, 90% of the leftovers, are sociopaths. It is out of that bunch that you'll find the rare aspie/autie/BPD, and I mean the BPD who's fluent with a razor (not just a husband-theif.)

    Now I'm not saying that every sociopath is self aware, but I am saying MOST are not even close. I will suggest that with the way REAL empaths are psychotic with their emotions and are VERY self conscious about it, who else would they be able to embrace AND rationalize AND justify being with long term?

    It has nothing to do with feelings actually. It's math. When I become conscious that people stop buying my bullshit it's equal to the amount an empath realizes their emotions are out of control, and also equal to an asperger's realization that people are stupid and can't be helped in that department.

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  15. Oops I left one out, it's also equal to an autie's realization of "fuck this, I'm not even going to participate" lol.

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  16. There seems to be a fundamental flaw/assumption here that empaths don't damage each other.

    Empaths can't even coexist without damaging other empaths. What makes you think socios could coexist without damaging empaths?

    This is mostly due to the fact that humans are selfish creatures. ALL humans are selfish. Everyone wants what is best for themselves. In order to not damage the people around you there needs to be a mutual relationship of respect and caring. The ability to put the needs of others ahead of your own on occasion. Even then, it is not always possible to not hurt those around you because the feelings of empaths do get in the way and being often irrational it is impossible to predict and therefore avoid all problematic avenues. If you can't/don't have the ability to care for the empaths, and other socios, around you, it's not going to be possible to not damage them.

    Even if logic were to prevail in all cases and it was possible to avoid emotional damage to empaths, what is in the best interest of one person, may not be in the best interest of another and conflict will arise. At best there can be a system that averages out to be mutually beneficial.

    Symbiotic, yes. Not damaging, doubtful.

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  17. =How can you harass me baby
    When all I ever wanted was to destroy you"
    Truely brilliantly said

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  18. I'm not one for dangerous thrill seeking, I love life and I don't want it to come to an early end, I can't help but facepalm when I hear of a sky diving related death or some idiot who got thorn and ripped apart by a bear, I'm like, well what the fuck did you expect?

    They are as idiotic as these empaths who spend their lives smoking around their children, then when the boy or girl grows up and develops malignant cancer everyone is in mourning, and I'm sitting back laughing at them as they burn.

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  19. "ALL humans are selfish. Everyone wants what is best for themselves."

    A very immature statement, not ALL humans are selfish, there are millions of people out to sacrifice themselves for a fellow human, which is great.

    You are just making these claims because not many people have been good to you in your life.

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  20. Are you scared Anon? Or have you just never been skydiving? 'Cause it's fun, really. And less dangerous than driving a car.

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  21. Ha ha ha if UKan and Misanthrope weren't here there would be all these fake sociopaths trying to be blunt and sarcastic in every post, like these little goth faggots, pathetic. I seen it happen on other sociopath sites they'd be saying how much they hate the world and shit and once you mention animals torture they have a breakdown AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA

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  22. KINDA REMINDS ME OF TN

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  23. MarilynMansonLuvaMarch 15, 2011 at 7:34 AM

    who tortured the fucking kitty? you can kill all the men you want but i hate asshole men but don't you dare hurt a poor defenseless animal, i am a socio too, i write down all the bad ass stuff i do on a daily basis in my journal (not a diary) like lighting fire crackers and cutsing at the dinner table, i have no remorse what so ever, im so dark

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  24. i love cutting my arms too (not self injury) im so evil and immune to all pain that i let my boyfreinds cut me and shit on me, i love my battle scars they remind me how much of a (loser) survivor i am

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  25. NPD

    ⋅ Fear losing their identity.
    ⋅ Fear dependency and avoid bonding.
    ⋅ Create rigid personality boundaries (can't get close).
    ⋅ Are sensitive to everything that leads to bonding.
    ⋅ Lose interest in sex that leads to bonding.
    ⋅ Seduce and withhold to avoid bonding.
    ⋅ Minimize feelings that lead to bonding.
    ⋅ Get nervous when things go well or bonding occurs.
    ⋅ Pick fights and create uproars to avoid bonding.
    ⋅ Want more space or have to run.
    ⋅ Can't make a commitment.
    ⋅ Are indifferent to others.
    ⋅ Feel entitled to be taken care of their way.
    ⋅ Won't put up with discomfort.
    ⋅ Have complete control of the schedule.
    ⋅ Say to their partner “Just stay put while I come and go.”

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  26. Some narcissists are raised by weak or inaccessible mothers and harsh, rigid, or sadistic fathers. They tend to bond with males in male settings (army, sports, police, bodybuilding, the Catholic Church) and to seek empathy, warmth, support, secure friendship, and love among their male peers. This macho bonding masks repressed and latent homosexual tendencies, the result of incestuous or simply pathologically excessive love towards the father (or father figure).

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  27. Terrified of these homosexual tendencies, these narcissists are besieged by feelings of guilt (towards their mothers with whom they compete for the father's affection) and inadequacy (they can never quite measure up to the father's standards). They become extreme and virulent misogynists. By hating women and defying them - they hate and defy life itself (women being the givers of life). They thus deny their effeminate self and exercise their self-destructive impulses.

    Narcissists are misogynists. They team up with women as mere sources of SNS (secondary narcissistic supply). The woman's chores are to accumulate past Narcissistic Supply and release it in an orderly manner, so as to regulate the fluctuating flow of primary supply. In other words, the woman's chore is to bear witness to the narcissist's moments of glory and recount them to him when he is down.

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  28. Do not want.

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  29. Narcissistic FudgePackerMarch 15, 2011 at 9:02 AM

    Want.

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  30. Nature holds the trump card in this discussion. The picture says it all. The alligator and bird work as one system. No debate. Just is.

    Some of this discussion reminds me of Thom Hartmann's work on the origins of the ADD brain. The hunters in his theory can be viewed as sociopathic wiring and the farmers the empathic.

    "Hartmann theorized that ADDers were essentially left over hunters in a farmer's world. 10,000 years ago, most people would have had Hunter traits. These traits, such as constantly scanning the environment (for prey), the ability fall into a dream-like state for long periods (during down periods) combined with the ability to become suddenly hyperfocused and thrive on danger and excitement (the hunt), helped these people survive. There was no need to remain focused on boring tasks. Until the agricultural revolution, that is, during which the farmer types outcompeted the hunter types, to the near extinction of the Hunters. Agricultural populations wiped out Hunter populations. Farmers needed to plan ahead and to tend their fields with care. They needed a different sort of temperament; more of a worker-bee personality. Hunters would forget to weed, forget to plant."

    Perhaps today's sociopath's deep seeded anger stems from this hostile takeover and inability to fully live out their predatory dreams! Ancient times were far more accommodating.

    From the original post "For a healthy relationship to work, both sides must benefit. Each person must walk out feeling better, greater, fulfilled. " This statement just makes good business. Companies with strong "hunting-take no prisoners" ambition must also creates beneficial work environments for its employees, otherwise all the ambition in the world will fall into decay without good daily comforts in the "grind." (farmers need a good pasture, and decent medical benefits)

    Everyone is expendable. Socio or empath, at the basic level of life, there is no distinction. Think the front lines in war. And now the Japanese nuclear power plant workers. Sometimes we give our life because its what is called for. And sometimes its socio talent which guarantees survival and sometimes empathic skills.

    A fine meal includes meat and vegetables.

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  31. That's because you are not out killing something to feed to me.

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  32. Curious mind. Open heart. Strong soul.

    Minds are limited, hearts die and there is no such thing as a soul.

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  33. Who is addressing me?

    Is it your limited mind?

    Your dead heart?

    Or your souless nature?

    The fact that you are making inquiries is proof that you can exercise your unlimited, full blooded and gifted nature.

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  34. i have not seen so much drivel on one page. admittedly i haven't read most of it...
    anyway.
    Anne at 4.55. absolute rubbish. you think socios are the only personality variants who need to blend in? absolute twaddle. 'expendable?' who isn't?

    todays post is a joke. and some of the comments embaressing. i'm off.

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  35. ME. where the heck are you? you're giving silliness the reign. is this what you want your blog to become?
    when you allow a post like this, you also allow mainstream nonsensical comments to follow. It's not what most of us come here for.

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  36. I think Anne's comment makes sense, as long as you don't view is as a judgement. Or take it personally. Despite the strong words, I'm not so sure it was meant to be an attack.

    Society's values do tend to cycle like that.

    Roman Empire, etc etc.

    Though I do think she missed Misanthrope's point.

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  37. 8==================D

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  38. Goths, are you talking about UKan the BPD? I'm not knocking UKan, but I'll call his/her thought process what it is. While I'm at it, you can't really claim anything is "real" here, maybe they're faking BPD by mistake in trying to fake sociopathy. Who really knows? Do you care?


    In case you haven't figured it out yet: nobody here really gives a shit what you are/are trying to be. We just bullshit and pretend to fully accept intellectual stimulation when really we don't. We just need it sometimes.

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  39. Nah BPDers are sentimental (weak) folks, they can only stay in a lie for so long.

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  40. BEST COMMENT EVAR BY A BLACK GUYMarch 15, 2011 at 12:18 PM

    8=========================D

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  41. Medusa, it's all drivel. I'm bored of those types who show up here, preaching togetherness and whatnot. Entirely missing the point.
    They're boring, which is quite a sin in itself. Not to mention the obvious naivite.

    I can just about tolerate some neuro typicals here, usually the older ones who've lived a bit, (even they get annoying). The rest (pseudo-world healers/intellectuals) are embaressing.

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  42. lol Anon, you ate that one right up.

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  43. notme, when your blog-hopping gets the best of you I shall miss you. At least your dose of narcissism is enough to, mostly, protect you from your unhealthy levels of boredom.

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  44. WORST COMMENT EVARMarch 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM

    Borderlines are awesome

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  45. Notme, although I entirely agree with you. I like seeing you angry. I don't know why.

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  46. When did you SEE her angry?

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  47. i'm totally grouchy anon. I just woke up, haven't eaten in about 20 hours, and have to confront someone about something that's weighing me down.

    Nonetheless, i still think i made a good point...

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  48. lol i love tn. If i can't get pissed off here where the hell can i?
    right, food...then i'll be on the goddamn warpath...

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  49. Yes Anon, when I said "see" I OBVIOUSLY meant it literally.

    Oh Notme, you say things like "have to confront someone about something that's weighing me down", you KNOW it just wants to make us ask.

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  50. Whatever tn, after reading your dumb blog i can't take you seriously.

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  51. haha, typical bullshit. Now scuse me whilst i get my vocal chords in gear...
    grrr

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  52. hey i love tn you've got a blog! nice one. I'll be reading it when i get back.

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  53. After creating that blog yesterday and not being good at writing I think that... Oh no. Wait, I just remembered. I don't care.

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  54. You are another Jason, you are going to break down in about a week and tell us all about your daddy issues.

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  55. notme, this is not the first or the second time you've starved yourself.

    is it fair to say you are a true bitch when you are hungry?

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  56. when i've just woken up, had a bad dream, starving, angry about someone doing something stupid, and THEN i'm faced with more stupidity, then yes, it's very fair to say i'm a true bitch.

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  57. LOL NOTABLE,
    your analysis of a male narcissist was interesting. do you care to share what happens to the female raised by those parents?

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  58. notme, tell us the dream

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  59. i've forgotten it. I didn't allow time to recall it - i just woke up angry.
    I've been having a series of them. Yesterday i was abducted and did the whole, open car door whilst it's speeding and roll out jobby.
    I was being chased around...
    they caught me again and my legs were frozen, couldn't escape them...
    sucked.

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  60. yikes. sucks.

    i just fixed couscous and served it with yogurt/garlic sauce. come over for dinner later.

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  61. are socios better at seeing through masks?

    whatis their default assumption? that people wear masks or people don't but they do.

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  62. I hear you notme, but I didn't take her post as preaching.

    I read it more as a Darwinist sort of thing.

    Anyway, I feel your rage and raise you some murderous thoughts and brinks of insanity.

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  63. notme, is the only one to trust here, what murderous thoughts? medusa, you I'm really scared of.

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  64. Aww, I'm not scary.

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  65. Every time i walk into my club the DJ plays this song.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ut_pzoWgY

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  66. Medusa is right. What I wrote earlier was not meant as an attack so it should have been worded differently. My point was that I think some socios are mistaken that their sociopathy is a natural evolution of human development. It is more like an unnatural trait that has been given a chance to flourish in unnatural circumstances, which is what our modern civilization has become. This current way of life is unsustainable. You don't have to be sitting in a circle hugging your neighbors singing Kumbaya to recognize that. When the shit hits the fan (when it does it will make Japan look like a little traffic accident), people will quickly re-learn how to survive, because we evolved to collaborate and not be predatory on each other. That's why we have language, because it allows us to communicate easier, and we developed symbols to better convey abstract principles such as thoughts and feelings. Those who can better appreciate what the other is thinking and feeling, (in other words, to be empathic)have a higher chance of survival. Those who can't or won't feel empathy for their fellow man will quickly find themselves in a minority of one.

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  67. Haven the actress.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO6Gv5R9w74

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  68. Great article! Yep, I like it.

    "The challenge: is it possible a society where sociopaths can be themselves without third party damage and empaths can cast aside the hipocrisy and the witch hunts?"

    Indeed, that IS the one, great, Challenge, isn't it.

    It's something I've been thinking about on an ongoing basis, and basically I am of the opinion that Yes, of course that is possible... under the right cultural circumstances, that is.

    As the general mentality is at present there's a lot that speaks for it not being exactly what 'the other party' is having in mind; quite the contrary, in fact.

    And yet I've actually met a few empaths who have given the issue some thought also and who think that it can indeed happen.

    There're a couple of these empaths frequenting my blog, and thus for sure SW also.

    I wonder, Article's Author, have you made any tentative or hypothetical thought experimentations over this theme? And if you have, have you come up with any kind of idea that might lead to a fruitful outcome in terms of something that might appeal enough to both sides for the species to actually reach the point where things are being tried in practice?

    It'd be a positive - if maybe temporary - relief from the constant talk about genetic manipulation, neuro-biological micro chips, and so on.


    Ps. Why didn't you sign the article with a nick? Would've been nice to know who to salute for a job well done. ;)

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  69. "Haven the actress.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO6Gv5R9w74"

    LMFAO HAHAHAHA

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  70. Psychopathic Nigger DoucheMarch 15, 2011 at 2:34 PM

    Where is the rape scene?

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  71. Anne, i didn't see it as an attack. Just as wrong.

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  72. Online Smear CampaignMarch 15, 2011 at 2:43 PM

    I am dissapoint.

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  73. Anne,

    If the situation is dire enough to call what happened in Japan as traffic accident while empaths are busy trying to take care of their loved ones socios will take care of themselves while appearing easily as best buddies with all the empaths that are useful for their needs.

    I say that with pain, since I ain't a socio.

    As the situation gets even more dire that you are in no position to even worry about someone else then it'll be the intelligence level that pulls one from above the water, if possible.

    By the way, it's pointless to discuss what happens in extreme cases. I said all this just because you started the extreme case analysis.

    The only reason both good and evil will always be around is both good and evil are a part of our nature in different shades.

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  74. Damn, Anne, it sounded like you might be making a good point until you said "When the shit hits the fan (when it does it will make Japan look like a little traffic accident)". You ought to remember that whilst we may have evolved to collaborate that doesn't mean a person can't live a solitary existence. Not all animals live in packs, think polar bears.

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  75. leave the bears out, they go around with a friend or two.

    Looting is something we see after almost every tragedy; for example: last year's earthquakes in Haiti and Chile, the floods in England in 2007, and of course Hurricane Katrina back in 2005. It happens when some people who've seen life as they know it get tossed out the window feel that all morality has been tossed out too. It's survival of the fittest and whatever you can get your hands on is yours, no matter who it belongs to.

    But that's not happening in Japan.

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  76. Many have pointed to the popularity of Japan's distinctive Buddhist and Shinto religions as well as how the values of conformity and consensus are considered virtues in their culture. That's one explanation, but it probably has something to do with remaining true to your moral code even in the darkest hours.

    Here’s my question to you: Why is there no looting in Japan?

    Interested to know which ones made it on air?


    Kim:
    Because Japanese culture, unlike all other modern cultures, is based primarily on honor and dignity. Unlike our Katrina disaster, the Japanese don't see this as an opportunity to steal everything in sight. The so-called civilized world can learn much from the stoic Japanese.

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  77. Greg in Arkansas:
    Two words: National pride. The people of Japan love their country and do what is best for the nation, unlike the United States where we love our country and do what is best for ourselves.

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  78. Richard:
    I don't really know. It would be easy to say that they are a very homogeneous society and perhaps in a way consider each other family. In any case they are to be applauded.

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  79. the very notable pathMarch 15, 2011 at 3:34 PM

    it's because they all know they would be caught on camera, filmed by some other Jap

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  80. Many years ago, a worldly and insightful Japanese business executive offered me an analogy that gets to heart of the forces keeping the Japanese in line, that has nothing to do with culture. "Japanese people," he told me, "are like passengers on a cruise ship. They know that they are stuck with the same people around them for the foreseeable future, so they are polite, and behave in ways that don't make enemies, and keep everything on a friendly and gracious basis."

    "Americans," he said, "are like ferryboat passengers. They know that at the end of a short voyage they will get off and may never see each other again. So if they push ahead of others to get off first, there are no real consequences to face. It is every man for himself."

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  81. Hey I'm a loner but I am under no delusions that my survival would not be possible without other human beings in one way or another. Don't forget, Polar bears have teeth, claws, warm fur and can swim long distances in freezing water to find prey. All we have going for us is a big brain that allows us to work together to survive. IF the global shit hits the fan the way it has the growing potential to, at first, yes, I admit aggressive people who prey on others will be able to go it alone. But only so long before others realize a better to survive. One of the biggest lies ever told is that man is by nature a violent, selfish killer bent on acquiring more power and resources than he needs for survival. There is no scientific evidence to show that. It's nonsense that has been perpetrated only for the past few thousand years by the disordered to justify their actions.

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  82. Well I know I can survive on my own, hell, I enjoy it.
    But you're delusional, if "the global shit hits the fan", sociopaths would probably be the ones rebuilding society, you're forgetting the love of power, the unrivaled ability to manipulate and deceive. You think all the socios in powerful places got there just by "preying" on other people? No, they got there because they can be charming, co-operative, encouraging. You don't think they'd see a total collapse of civilisation as an opportunity to put themselves in a place of power and have people do their bidding?

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  83. I regretfully agree that one really has to have narcissistic or sociopathic traits to really stay the long course for power. I know a few old powerful men and their family have suffered totally for these men have remained at focusing where they get their highest narcissistic supply, which is upping other socio men. It is almost unrealistic to have a healthy person not turn into an ego centric maniac to stay the course around competitive bozos. The only way a gifted would never become narcissistic is if the gifted is really enjoying his gift on and on and on, plus the gifted is so gifted that there is no close second around. That level of gift could have a healthy level of self-confidence but if it is competitive those who appear to have the highest ego seem to survive better. This discussion, of course, applies to the USA, UK type societies that flourish under the message that anyone can do it (implication here is pretty much about stepping away from your own family, or achieving a higher status than your own family, quite individualistic, that is.)

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  84. ""The challenge: is it possible a society where sociopaths can be themselves without third party damage and empaths can cast aside the hipocrisy and the witch hunts?""

    Hehe, that wasn't the way I thought of it at all. I'm thinking of this question as a hypothetical experiment.

    Even if we DID create such a situation, there's nothing stopping us from changing it back again - or into something totally new - once it's achieved.


    SNDouche,

    "Where is the rape scene?"

    tonight it's on my blog. Take a look, hehe. ;)


    retrat 3:39

    Good analogies you were told. But is the American one better than the Japanese? It's different, but better?

    The Japanese have more of their culture intact, but they're catching up with faster steps for each year - just like the rest of the world.


    UKan,

    Why does the DJ play that piece of music?
    I just listened to it and I think it's great. Thanks for that URL. - I bookmarked it, obviously.

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  85. Anne is right. The more sociopathic you are, the more short sighted and undisciplined you are likely to be. In practice, high functioning sociopathy translates to the limited ability to exercise some kind of basic empathy, delay gratification and commitment to something besides yourself, at least for a short while. Yeah sure, anyone can point out exceptions, but those exceptions only prove the rule.

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  86. Rumor has it that not me likes to lash out when she hasn't eaten. Hypocrisy exposing low blood sugar vent.

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  89. my link keeps messing up. oops.
    Um, yeah, sorry. I was angry but i won't go into why right now.

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  91. Peace and harmony between people can eat a dick for all I care. It's boring and it allows fools to keep their tongues and life blood.

    People freak out when waves start to toss the boat high and low, side to side. They look over the edge and fear for their life, even if they know how to swim. It's their primal reaction to a very real danger, if not the suffocating waters, than what lies beneath, unseen.

    It's the best time for people like me, when everyone is scared and sobbing, trying not to retch and keep what little dignity they have in tact. Stronger stomachs and minds prevail. We may not give a shit about who we share the boat with, but our desire to stay alive will keep the others safe... for now.

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  92. you are really full of bull shit, tnp.

    i imagine you as this little guy (no taller than 5'6") with a slightly crooked nose, sad looking eye brows, thin lips, small chimp eyes (think Bush, Jr). Baby face, but a chimp baby. slight imbalance in the way you walk, like the hood boys, talking with exaggerated arm movements (going symmetrical, so quite hilarious), hands and head showing early signs of Parkinson's.

    rocking on a boat, hanging for your dear life, hoping there will be someone else who also survives, to carry your small body across the water when the boat hits the shore.

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  93. Then let me correct the image for you :)

    6'1, built from over a decade and a half straight of weight lifting, a young face for my age, piercing eyes, a strong confidant gait (but quiet), and a devilish grin.

    The last one tends to get bitter-sweet attention. People always think I'm up to something when I grin.

    Imagine that.

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  94. "Imagine that."

    OMG! You're Henry Rollins?

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  95. Ohhh Big Boy! You can swallow my canary anyday.

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  96. Anna:

    "One of the biggest lies ever told is that man is by nature a violent, selfish killer bent on acquiring more power and resources than he needs for survival. There is no scientific evidence to show that. It's nonsense that has been perpetrated only for the past few thousand years by the disordered to justify their actions."

    By the disordered, eh? Nope, honey, it isn't the disordered or the ill or the retarded who did it. It is the average human being. It's always him who allow things to rot and fall apart. It's always him who complain and wants to be fed more and better food when times get rough and he has to work more. It's always him who is first with the first stone to be cast at the unique and strong who carried the weak through to something greater because he had the vision, the intellect and audacity and the boldness to do so. It is the common, average man who readily stabs their one time savior as soon as things don't seem quite so rosy as they've been promising themselves, for they're oh so good at blaming the outstanding.

    You really think it is the 'disordered' who ripped away one layer after the other of a complex structured society, until only the merchant and the slave classes remain, and those who were once aristocracy - not only in blood and and position, but in spirit, in intellect, in vision (or 'Grandiosity' as it is called now)?

    Yeah well, you're no less deluded than are those you blame: The Disordered, the lame and retarded, the HIV infected and the sexually deviant.

    Ohh, you were talking about the SOCIOPATHS!?? Oookay, why we all know that they are indeed to blame for everything. I mean, they must be - now that both God and the Devil have been taken out of the equation along with Royalty and Culture.

    Yep, you're REALLY the brilliant one!

    .....

    Anne, re-think that theory, honey! ;)

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  97. See, this is irony in its sweetest:

    1. OP asks if it's possible a society in wich socios seek their interest without collateral damage and empaths to build a morality that actually works without the use of excuses and scapegoat mechanisms.

    2. TheNotablePath - presumably a socio - mirrors the first side: It's the best time for people like me, when everyone is scared and sobbing, trying not to retch and keep what little dignity they have in tact. Stronger stomachs and minds prevail. We may not give a shit about who we share the boat with, but our desire to stay alive will keep the others safe... for now.

    3. Anne mirrors the second: One of the biggest lies ever told is that man is by nature a violent, selfish killer bent on acquiring more power and resources than he needs for survival. There is no scientific evidence to show that. It's nonsense that has been perpetrated only for the past few thousand years by the disordered to justify their actions.

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  99. You're taking what I said out of context. The first paragraph was how I related to the article. The rest had to do with disaster/stressing situations.

    As you were.

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  100. I'm reading the posts from the same POV as Zhawq's.

    I don't think it's about socios being the poor sobs or the empaths being the bad guys. Simplistic binary thinking is a tool of the political schemers to herd the masses, so lets cast it aside.

    What I think the challenge is about is how to build a system where both sides adhere by interest. It's an engaging question in and of itself.

    I see socios here admiting all the time it'd be a shitty society if everyone were to be like them. It wouldn't work. Lets face it. They need a structured environment with predictable, cooperative behavior. Guess what? Empaths need it too.

    So, in one hand, we have socios wanting a certain environment - the catch is if they act out too much, the system will hunt them down. In the other hand, empaths have good use for certain traits they often lack - and often found in socios. The catch: can they build a relationship with someone they fear will break the rules?

    Isn't it obvious both parties beg for a new system? Wich system is this? I know not... But I think the starting point could be the stomach. As a saying goes, 'we think with our stomachs', so the thing that keeps the system together and effortlessly flowing should be built from both side's interests.

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  101. @TheNotablePath:
    I see. While I'm aware socios couldn't care less for peace (we could say its beneath them, given that they're largely amoral in this instance), I think people often mistake a harmonic relationship for a system without inner conflicts.

    If we're exercising an effort in thinking of a new system, then conflict is the dialetical tool of improvement, so there's no point in arguing about its presence, let alone its usefulness.

    What I'm saying is that, in this exercise, it'd be in the socio's interest to adhere to the system. It wouldn't be like he's 'conforming', in a passive way. On the contrary: both sides would only compromise to the extent of their interest.

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  102. It doesn't mean shit. I'm not interested in pipe dreams hatched from flights of fancy. No one who comes here has the ability, let alone the drive to start making new systems for society.

    When a light bulb goes out, you replace it. You don't rewire the outlet in an attempt to optimize it to make it a better outlet.

    Fix what's broken, not what you don't like. We don't need a new society, society destroys itself and replaces it with a new one year after year after year. Just sit back, relax, and think about something you can actually do.

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  103. Does the system make the people how they are, or vice versa?

    The way the world is now is what creates the sociopaths and whatever else in the first place. And vice versa. Isn't that already the definition of "symbiosis"?

    Change the system and the labels "sociopath" and "empath" mean nothing. It nullifies the concepts. They only exist in relativity. What we are, in terms of sociopath and empath, only exists in relation to the system that is in place.

    You can't separate the parts from the whole and expect anything to mean anything.

    You can't not have symbiosis.

    This conversation is pointless.

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  104. Besides, symbiosis is the relationship between different species.

    Empaths and sociopaths alike are all humans. Some of you here seem to forget that.

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  105. @TheNotablePath:
    Suit your fancy. Chymeric endeavors seems boring to many here.

    @Medusa:
    I guess symbiosis here is meant as a metaphor. Sure, we change the system, its elements change meaning - and that's precisely the intention, is it not?

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  106. I get it, that "symbiosis" it was meant as an [what the opposite of meta?] thing, but sometimes perspective gets lost around here and everything gets all self-involved. Not that I should expect otherwise.

    As Reagan once said, if aliens down came to attack, all earthy enemies would become allies against a common threat.

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  107. Ah, I hear ya.

    Wild venting, the bread and butter of the internet.

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  108. personally, i believe that sociopaths are insane. you have t remember that they invite chaos and disaster. if aliens attacked earth and everyone else formed an alliance, they would be the one's to screw it up and get everyone killed.

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  109. Possibly, but I think it's more likely that most would do whatever it takes to save their own ass. If they were smart, anyway. Which would mean collaborating with others. But that's me being optimistic, in the regular sense of the word.

    (Sometimes optimism, for me, means a hope that the world destroys itself, but that's another matter.)

    Also, sociopaths are insane only if they believed that chaos and disaster were bad things, but invited and caused it anyway.

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  110. Henry rollins is Fugly, I can't stand a guy who stands up for the common good.

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  111. lol Medusa.


    (Sometimes optimism, for me, means a hope that the world destroys itself, but that's another matter.)

    You really are back, aren't you?

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  112. As someone said before, Australia is as real an example as we'll ever get. Social engineering to the max and fast track. Forged from the dregs of society, literally cast into no mans's land learning to regulate themselves often through horrendous trial and error to ultra conservatives and extremely business savvy individuals all within a very short period. Why is it that xenophobia often removes itself when one is travelling alone but can just as well reappear when we reattach with the herd?

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  113. I'm a product of my environment at all points in time. If I get angry it's because someone pushed me to be angry. If I am nice or kind it is because it is what the situation calls for. So as far as relationships go I usually get in them because I want something. It could be as complex as the person has connections that I want to make use of or as simply as I want to have sex with them. Once they stop serving the purpose or I have no further want of them I drop them. I'm not particularly cruel just insensitive and cold. As far as could I have a lasting beneficial to both sides relationship with an empath. Yes I could. Eventually I will need to have children. I have to pass on my genetic legacy. It is the closest I can get to immorality. I wouldn't want my children to be fucked up so so obviously I wouldn't fuck up my relationship with their mother.

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  114. Zhawq, when I talk about "the disordered", I include the average human being because most people ARE disordered. We all to some degree or other suffer from a collective form of insanity that prevents us from living within our means like every other animal on the planet manages to do.

    Australia is a good example but not for the reasons GagReflex uses. Before the crazy people came (ALL westerners, not just the criminals they dumped there), the aborigines lived there relatively peacefully and sustainably for more than 50,000 years. We all know what happened to them, and that sort of thing happened all over the planet simply because we can't get enough. Is that really progress?

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  115. I don't believe in the concept of progress when it comes to civilization.

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  116. Alittle off topic, but again (as you often seem to do) you are making the assumption that you have to have pathology to exhibit said traits and that they may balance out the negative ones. Warning: Your Narcissitic nature maybe convincing yourself of presumptious definitions of exclusiveness or misunderstanding correlation for causation. That is not say that just because scoiopaths exhibit said behaviors does not necessarily mean that everyone that exhibits the individual behavoirs is a sociopath. It is the combination of traits as awhole that makes it a pathology, not the individual traits.

    Back to the topic at hand...
    What you are talking about is symbiosis. Is it possible? sure. is it likely? no. Even in nature there are more chains (food chain, circle of life chains) than there are direct symbiotic relationships.
    Also, it does not seem very probable that sociopaths can be themselves without even a second party being damaged let alone a thrid party when left to there own devises. The good news (sic) is that neither does anyone else in society seem to beable to for long periods of time. Groups form and outside groups are often demonized. This is part of normal human nature it seems.

    You need to understand that sociopathy is an extreme. Any extreme even empathy can and often is destructive not only to the person but those around them when left to "run amuck".

    That is not to say that they don't have there uses, nor that it is always the case. It means they have to be acknowledged as the extremes they are and those extremes need to be addressed.
    Think of it like fire. Can fire be controlled and is it useful and even desired? Yes. If you let it "be itself" and don't take steps to regulate it, it will burn until the fuel or oxygen runs out.
    You might say but the fire doesn't have choice. True but that means that it is always "itself" objectively. A bad anology I know but I hope in a abstract way it conveys that something that would be considered negative and dangerous when "being itself" is actually beneficial and desirable when the risks are acknoweldged and proper steps are made to harness their positive aspects while controlling the negative aspects.
    Just as my example, if sociopaths are to have a positive and symbiotic relationship with society at large something similar would have to be put in place. For example, allow them to use there perspective and unique abilities but setup a rigid system that "contains" the negative possiblities and prevent them from "running wild with reckless abandoment". I hate to say it but due to many sociopaths failure to self regulate themselves for the benefit of larger society and sometimes even themselves as compared to the rest of society, they would need to be controlled more heavily. At the same time they should be accepted for who and what they are. See my other bad anology below...
    Some people have tigers as pets. But they can't be domesticated and often turn on their "providers". This is not the fault of the tiger...it is what it is and most people in society acknowledge this and usually blame the "provider" for their own death and the subsequent death of the tiger. But at the same time even the "provider" does not let the tiger run free in public and do whatever it wants because as stated it is what it is and what it is a predator. It is called respecting what it is and part of the respect is not expecting it to be something else and taking steps to mitigate the risks rather than expecting it to regulate itself.

    Sorry about the long post but I don't have many "simple" thoughts on such complex subjects.

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