Friday, January 28, 2011

A modest proposal

From a reader:
I have a proposal. I've been reading your blog intensely since I found it, and I'm fascinated.

I'd like to interact with the community that formed around SocioWorld by suggesting a few subjects to your posts and have the community participate. Here's just a hypothetical situation: you start a subject, like, say, "love", starting off with a definition and then invite people to say what they think. So there you have it: a big "room" full of people giving insightful feedback.

LOVE

Do sociopaths experience love? What is this "thing" people keep talking about all the time? Is there a definition? Love obviously means many things in many contexts, so we can try to pin one context and work around. Consider Paul's definition:

4 Love is patient,
love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own,
is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails;

This is pretty deep. I gather from SocioWorld's readers they can feel attached and caring towards others. I also have a strong impression they can quickly detach, but also feel loss if the detachment was involuntary. Richard Kuklinski the iceman said, "I'm probably the loneliest person in the world". Kuklinski himself had a family he felt very protective of. The only time he could remember he put his trust in someone was when he gave his wife a knife, turned his back and said it was the only chance she'd have to end his beatings. He said he was aware of what he did to her and that what he did was bad for her, and it was the only time he gave someone a chance.

All in all, it's amazing how one "side" has a hard time grasping the mindset of the other. This is why I'm goddamn curious to see how nuts people will say Paul is.

78 comments:

  1. My love is different. When I am in love with someone I want to see her giving everything up for me. This is not merely material. She will sacrifice her virtues to me. I will be able to do what ever I want with her and she will accept it with all her heart. Of course, I will be very protective of her. Its like a cat playing with a mouse.

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  2. I've never been in love, I can't put others before myself, which is great.

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  3. People have told me they love me, and I've repeated the sentiment back to them, but it was purely because I wasn't done with them yet and had I not said it, they would have left.

    It's an interesting one. I'm quite sure I've never felt it, and I'm not entirely sure I can or for that matter, want to.

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  4. Paul also said, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child..." and to me, his definitions of loving actions are mostly reminiscent of, and most evident in, a mother’s unconditional love for her child.

    But that's just my interpretation and I dare say that any other person's interpretation will differ. Because there are so many ways to love, and so many meanings of love, that I personally believe love is defined as whatever our individual contentedness depends on at our core: the will to live, the will to power, the will to pleasure, the will to meaning, and so on.

    Personally, I'm driven (mostly) by the will to meaning, and I'm with Fromm when he says, "loves is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." That said, I also believe love is the problem of human existence, because everybody wants it but not everybody can give it, and if they can give it it's not always as it's wanted, when it's wanted, how it's wanted, where it's wanted, and by whom it's wanted. Yes, love helps make us, and shape us, but so does a lack of love.

    In many ways I see modern interpretations of 'romantic love' as akin to legends about alchemical substances such as the philosophers' stone: stories about elusive elixirs of life that we’re encouraged to chase because they *symbolise* the sublime, which is we're told, our most sought after goal.

    Only, in our times I believe this benefits capitalism more than anyone else. The biological realities of 'romance' are swept aside in favour of having 'romance' bestowed upon us by some sort of divine grace if we become the 'right' person by buying the 'right' objects or experiences.

    People are not being told that lust (or bonding) is biological and love (or caring) is an action – so when the seven year itch strikes, just as our oxytocin levels nosedive and the child we did or didn't have is when we first met is strong enough to begin to individuate from mama, we flee from each other into the arms of others.

    Of course this wouldn't be as problematic to so many if we didn't live in unpractical nuclear families, but we do for the most part, and so women in particular find themselves living lives of poverty with children because one or both partners are once again seeking an elusive elixir. Personally, I think the human race is polygamous, and I believe that if we still lived in tribes the realities of biological lust would be accepted for what it is: nature's way of bonding two people just long enough to create a child who is likely to survive.

    I adore romanticism in the classical sense, particularly in art and literature, but I don't desire it in my life. Likewise, of course I value lust, but to me it's like a cocaine high – caring, while relatively calmer, is more consistent and satisfying *at this stage of my life in my atomised reality* for me.

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  5. ffs sea witch can u pls make a tweet about ur fave sex position insted

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  6. I don't really believe in one set definition for love. I also don't believe the limits of a diagnosis. I don't believe that anyone should want to put on the shackles of a label and tweak the rest of their non-criteria behavior in a fool perfectionist's errand "I must fall in this realm 100%."

    I see this on the blog as well as the world, it smells of weakness.

    Having said that, I suppose to a certain extent I do know love. I'd like to call it unconditional appreciation for now. In a nutshell, I grant nearly limitless exceptions for people who would defy the idea that they should have to be defined, although there's more criteria I'll compare it to finding a diamond in the rough, who wouldn't like that once in a while? I'll admit that such a particular temptation is my own weakness. I have never considered myself too good, or not good enough, for someone I fancy. While doing business I know what areas to avoid per strategy but love is blind, no?

    As far as everyone else, I've encountered some on their "honest" days and gathered a few depressing thoughts, like the realization that they'll never have what others do. I don't view love like this, when I look at mainstream humanity I gather most of them love like slobs anyway so I'm not missing much and actually quite grateful. I'm also aware that my view exists in this fashion because I'm mostly unwilling to accept such inconveniences, but I do recognize a diamond when I see one. Love is only temporary. On that last part, I think this is because others change and I do not.

    Oh grand betrayal :)

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  7. I think the Kuklinski's offer to his wife, he knew she wouldnt kill him, he was confident that he knew his victim well enough to know what she was and was not capeable of. I think most socio's Ive encountered mistake love for "possession" or "ownership". They feel a kinship to that which they believe is theirs, but I dont think that is necessarily love, especially if they are hurtful to the love object or dont have their best interests at heart.

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  8. I have a fondness for (some of) my family. But I find it so hard to believe this exists. I can't rationalise it. It's like altruism, when i was a child a used to say 'There's no such thing as altruism. You only do something good because it makes you feel good.' I still don't know if that exists, there's no way for me to truly no what peoples motives are and I can't fathom doing something for someone without anything being in it for you (even if the thing is just making you feel good), it doesn't make any sense. It's a huge flaw. And I really hate not knowing things.

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  9. ** believe love exists

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  10. Love is highly jealous and destructive. Love is not patient. Love hides behind the truth, while embracing deceit, in order to maintain the status quo. Love fails. Love falters.

    I talk about love that I'm capable of at this link.

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  11. Has anyone here ever lost a partner(has your partner died I mean). If so have how long has it taken you to find a replacement, or have you managed to find a replacement. I imagine that If you find someone who possesses many of the same characteristics as your dead partner, it would be like you've sufferd no loss at all. Like if your car gets wrecked but you buy another one just like it, would you really miss the old one that much?

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  12. Oh come on M.E, lets look at Kuklinski, a serial killer, wife batterer and a psychopath, you of all people should know that he really does not give a flying fuck about his wife, he can only feel affection to a certain extent, if he went into a fit of rage and killed his wife and children, do you think he would be suicidally depressed? Exactly, he wouldn't, he would feel sad but he would never feel in depth like a normal person, that is not love.

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  13. You all need to remember, I'm a psychopath, and i say things sometimes without even thinking, my words have no feeling behind them so i say crazy shit to people sometimes, and you shouldn't listen to anything Kuklinski says in the interview. If you know a psychopath, you know that we are not loyal to anyone but ourselves, someone could be in my good book, but if they ticked me off they would be excommunicated.

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  14. Love is something I /have/ to believe exists. I know my capacity for love. However, finding someone that can reciprocate is an entirely different matter. Love also isn't something that can be quantified or listed because it's absolutely variable from person to person. How one person experiences love is not how another person does.

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  15. Your right Noteable selfish human love is the opposite of the ideal.
    A love for a child that's yours or possibly a family member would be more inblanced then for a lover.

    That's not to say that no one is capable of that ideal love.

    I would bet during the suducing stage every S/P used this ideal form to some extent to draw the other closer to them.

    Isn't the suducing stage the best part?
    So this formula does work.

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  16. "How one person experiences love is not how another person does."

    Why?

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  17. Must have a lot to do with emotions and needs being filtered through what ever the personality type is. Someone with abandonment issues would see it completly different then someone who hasn't had to deal with that.

    Love is a verb, it's something you do and show for the other.

    Your needs being met by another person is not your love but theirs.

    If you concider the other person a plaything you might love the play not the thing. If you can't seperate the thing from the play maybe it's the thing you love.
    Does that make any sence?

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  18. That does make sense, but I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to separate the thing from the play. If your with someone, and they stop doing the things that you like to do, if they start bore you you leave them. Ands thats normal right? Why should you put your own happiness at risk for someone whose really beginning to grate on your nerves?

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  19. I can form attachments, be loyal (so long as theyre useful and loyal back) even feel something for them. But I do not think I can love. I have family I used to be attached to and would normally be considered "loved" but recently they've done some things to piss me off and I have no feeling left for them anymore. So if love is enduring I don't have it.

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  20. Just because I'm with a girl doesn't mean I think of them as my girlfriend. They may think of me as their boyfriend but it doesn't necessarily work the other way round. After I've dated a girl for a month or so, I get bored of them. Every little thing that they do begins to piss me off, so I either leave them, or start annoying them on purpose until they leave me. I'll "forget" arrangements that we've made, I'll be rude to their friends and family etc and then when they do leave me, I'll guilt trip them. I tell them that "I'm going through a difficult period right now" and that I wish they could be a little more understanding, so that they'll come of looking like the bad one. Right now, I really can't even be bothered to go through the motions with girls to reach sex. I either have one night stands or I don't bother at all.

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  21. Sprinkle in some physical abuse, and my relationships are similar to Misanthropes, i was dating this girl, they call these kind of people bubbly i suppose, i hate those sort of people, i despise anyone that radiates vulnerability and kindness, anyways i knew what i was doing when i got into this relationship, i wanted to degrade this bitch, destroy and every bit of goodness in this person, i used to lock her in the cellar for like three hours straight, she was that much of a doormat she took it, i knew that though, i don't try things like that on people who will retaliate, after a couple of weeks of destroying her self esteem i start sending her to buy me things at the store.

    One night i came in drunk, she said something kind to me, can't recall what it was, i went into a rage, picked up a bicycle and smacked her in the head with it, she fell on the ground and i beat her with it over and over, in the end i got bored with her, she was becoming a little mini me, it was disgusting me how weak this person was, in the end i left, as far as i know she is getting treatment for depression and she is a self harmer.

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  22. I love easily, way to easily and get a lot of enjoyment from people close to me, I find that freinds add a comfortable love that a lot of what Paul says I can apply easily.

    The Love is verses are in Marraige Ceremonies'

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  23. LMFAO @ getting smacked with a bicycle.

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  24. Lol yea, i despise women and gays, it pisses me off how feminine men are turning these days, what happened the real men, the misogynists?

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  25. Oh Adam darling, if only you had a brain.

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  26. Adam will get his, right up his ass in jail while they hold him on assult charges. And by a man. LOL

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  27. lol "self harmer". Look at us go after all these types with no self worth and come here to talk about it.

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  28. Don't let these fools talk you out of your perception Adam, I am right there with you.

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  29. Found a cure for stupidity. You can take it in the form of a 70ft drop, a bullet to the head or a rope around the neck. Anyone interested? You should be.

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  30. There is no cure. You would rid the world of .00000000001% of it's stupidity after you've already exerted effort trying to profess the cure and even then putting forth more effort to shoot someone or assist their cord-less "bungee jump" by cutting the cord when they're not looking. You are meaningless.

    I must give you credit on the choking idea though, choking I'd give for free :)

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  31. That was called a joke, anon. Feel free to take my advice literally though.

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  32. I don't think Paul's definition of love is "nuts," exactly. But I do think that's it's not only highly idealized but unattainable for most, even in the non-socio population.

    One of its drawbacks is that while it offers a description of an ideal, it offers no suggestions as to how this might be achieved. It's as meaningless as saying, "As you go through life, you should always be good."

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  33. Sociopaths are too common, they are all over prison, they are out stealing cars and addicted to drugs, psychopaths are charming, they are also impulsive but they can usually hide their impulsive nature, they are way more grandiose than a sociopath, and they would kill someone rather than rob them, if they could get away with it.

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  34. Paul is discribing My love and I realize that you cannot achieve it, but would like you to understand that I do.

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  35. Anyone else here think that Homer Simpson is a sociopath? He's impulsive, wreckless, violent, drinks to excess and has trouble empathising with the feelings of those around him, including his family.

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  36. No Homer is just stupid, sideshow Bob is the perfect example of a psychopath.

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  37. "sideshow Bob is the perfect example of a psychopath."

    Definitely, but I still think that Homer has more socio characteristics than most people realise. Rember the episode where he buys a gun and starts shooting everything in sight? And the one where he goes to Vegas with Flanders and ends up getting married again? Plus he's always reasonlessly choking Bart, and changing jobs practically every week. I know it sounds kind of ridiculous because he's a cartoon character, but imagine someone like that in real life.

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  38. For me, love is like water. No shape, no form, no color, and impossible to hold in the palm of your hand for any length of time.

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  39. homer is just dumb. he doesn't pick up on any signals given off by anyone else and doesn't think to manipulate. he is just a big dumb animal, to use lisa's words.

    i've felt in-love. chemicals coursing through my body, creating physiological manifestations. i'm not sure what just love is. if someone close to me, e.g. a relation died i wouldn't... feel how other people seem to.
    my sister and i went to check on my gran when she wasn't answering the phone. we were a pretty close family. we had a key to her house. i went into her room and found her in bed in a gruesome pose. i didn't feel anything. i came out of the room and told my sister she was dead, but looked like she'd passed away peacefully. she cried for a bit. then she went in to look - i tried to talk her out of it, but she was determined. i just left her to it and went to make a cup of tea. she's never mentioned the lack of looking peaceful...

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  40. The Ugly Truth:

    Old people are irritating. They ramble on about shit that nobody else cares about and their faces look like paper mache. My grandmothers involvement in my life was just an inconvenience and I didn't care when she died.

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  41. Thoughts on this video?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTLB3wFM9nU

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  42. Reaction: An insanely bad collective lack of critical thought.

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  43. Edit: It's generally what racial paranoia is. It's just a witch hunt on a vast scale.

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  44. I bought my daughter the Joseph Fritzle advent calendar.






















    Every time she opened a door, I'd rape her then close it again.

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  45. Love by definition is the combination of joy + trust, more on emotions here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emotions
    I can feel love, although it seems that I can only feel it when I conciously try to induce it. I am scared that if I start to love people I will stop putting myself first. I ussually try to induce self love although it doesn't feel the same as loving another

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  46. I think something more common to psychopaths would be infatuation, which I have read described as the dark side of love

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  47. Infatuation? Really? I feel more of an indifference, which is the opposite.

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  48. I meant more common than love

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  49. I look at love like this:

    My love is all consuming
    Its absolute loyalty
    Its absolute devotion
    Its never enough
    Its protection
    Its a way out
    Its a addiction
    Its terror
    Its pain
    Its anger
    Its joy
    Its suffering
    Its sick
    Its a contradiction that never fails to give you both vision and blindness, hope and disillusionment. False ideals, and reality into who you and the other person really is and what role you both have to play in the team you've created.
    Its you and the other person against the world out to stop your family from becoming great.
    Its where you hesistate from hurting the other person but you can't stop yourself from being you.

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  50. Actually, God, you describe yourself as selfish in your own book.

    I think me did a article on love. It soumded like ifatuation. Probably possible fr socios

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  51. UKan, have you thought about going into politics? That's were the power is.

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  52. I hardly think his criminal record would get him very far.

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  53. Lie about it? Hide the fact?

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  54. You've got to be kidding.

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  55. Can't it was in the media.
    I have another plan.

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  56. Anon @4:47: "Explain how?"

    It isn't about weighing evidence: it's about a rampant fear, one that passes from person to person.

    Let's say that "X" is out of work. This could be for any number of reasons: the economy is in a slump, "X's" job has been outsourced, "X's" skills are becoming obsolete, or it could simply be that "X" is a shitty employee.

    "X" has ten friends who are currently unemployed, underemployed, or merely disgruntled. Each can name 10 Jewish people in positions of relative power.

    It doesn't matter that for every 10 Jewish people they can name in stated positions of power, they can name 100 or so who are not Jewish: it's a cabal. The facts are clear. "X" and his friends are out of work because Jewish people are running the world.

    Jewish people are no longer a collection of individuals: they're all, as a group, sheer evil, and not only are they sheer evil---they're out to get "X" and his friends personally.

    The facts are far less important than the driving emotion: a contagious fear. It clouds reason and must have some psychological pay-off. It doesn't matter what that pay-off is: any evidence that counters the theory that "Jews are evil and are ruining my life" is just ignored.

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  57. How sweet it is...lol

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  58. Medusa said...

    You've got to be kidding.


    How so? Nobody knew about Stalins childhood, there are ways to get around it, if you think otherwise you are a tool, you can't escape evasion because you don't have the entitlement that a sociopath has, we can get out of the worst situations, or we can twist reality in ways that you'd never know.

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  59. It's a hell of a lot harder to hide your past nowadays than when Stalin was around. Come up with a modern, relevant example.

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  60. When i do it, I'll come back to you, people don't care about a persons past, as long as it doesn't involve rape or murder, if you pull the right strings nobody will ever hear of it, and believe it or not, most people don't think a person would lie to them, proven time and time again by crooked politicians. So in other words shut the fuck up.

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  61. Not Able is right. You don't know what you're talking about. You can google my first and last name and it will be three pages of web sites talking about crimes I did. I wasn't famous, I was fourth page of my countries media. I don't even have a record anymore, but the legacy is still there. In this age of information if you make any major moves you will be revealed.

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  62. You've never seen an election, have you? Using the past as a smear tactic is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

    So in other words, you're a fucking moron.

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  63. You can't twist reality if it's staring the whole world in the face. If something you've done is in the papers the world isn't going to forget it no matter what you do. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. You no you've been proven wrong, so shut your fucking hole.

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  64. here are ways to get around it, if you think otherwise you are a tool

    Let me reword this for you: if you think you can get around it, you are a tool.

    most people don't think a person would lie to them

    We're talking about a public relationship here (politics), not a romantic one.

    How about you give us an example of how you managed to get political power with a sketchy background, since you seem to know so much inside information and know everything?

    You sound like you don't have much real-world experience, son.

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  65. I found a company that will flush your electronic name by flooding key words as a search engine optimization. I'm going to use it when I get my MBA and go legit. Still I know my limitations. If you dig you will find. Plus you have all the witnesses inlcuding prisoners, gang members, victims, clients, reporters, ex girlfriends, family, etc. To expect anything but exposure when you are in exposure is dillusional. I'm a behind the scenes guy. I decided that after I was exposed.

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  66. Kahlil Gibran on Love

    When love beckons to you, follow him,
    Though his ways are hard and steep.
    And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
    Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
    And when he speaks to you believe in him,
    Though his voice may shatter your dreams
    as the north wind lays waste the garden.

    For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
    Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
    So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

    Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
    He threshes you to make you naked.
    He sifts you to free you from your husks.
    He grinds you to whiteness.
    He kneads you until you are pliant;
    And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

    All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

    But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
    Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
    Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
    Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
    Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
    For love is sufficient unto love.

    When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, "I am in the heart of God."
    And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

    Love has no other desire but to fulfill itself.
    But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
    To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
    To know the pain of too much tenderness.
    To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
    And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
    To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
    To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;
    To return home at eventide with gratitude;
    And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.

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  67. I find Kahil's poem "On Love" to be in alignment to all that has been said in this comment stream. Paul's take on love is just too virginal.

    Love is the drug I crave and live for. Rare and addictive. Passionate and playful. Dangerous liaisons are power plays. Take me down now!

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  68. Young love is addictive. Some love love but don't know how to love. A real requited love relationship is lotsa wok. Some people want to put the work into it, and others want the ride to get on and off. I call that roller coaster love. Fun but unreliable. How deep you get depends on how fearless you are of another broken heart, how lazy you are, or how much the other person is willing to call you on your bullshit--

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  69. What gorgeous words, anon 7:31.

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  70. UKan said...
    I look at love like this:

    My love is all consuming
    Its absolute loyalty
    Its absolute devotion
    Its never enough
    Its protection
    Its a way out
    Its a addiction
    Its terror
    Its pain
    Its anger
    Its joy
    Its suffering
    Its sick
    Its a contradiction that never fails to give you both vision and blindness, hope and disillusionment. False ideals, and reality into who you and the other person really is and what role you both have to play in the team you've created.
    Its you and the other person against the world out to stop your family from becoming great.
    Its where you hesistate from hurting the other person but you can't stop yourself from being you.



    Is that not a love, hate relationship?

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  71. "Its you and the other person against the world out to stop your family from becoming great."

    I don't understand. "stop"?

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  72. Love is patient, love is blind.
    Love gladly takes it in the behind.
    Love never wavers, and it never fails.
    Love endures all of life's betrayals.
    So love me tender, even when I'm sick,
    and after I fuck you, please suck my dick.
    When I say fuck you, I mean fuck your sister,
    If you loved me you'd understand why I kissed her.
    I'm in love with love, it's so fuckin' great,
    so fall in love with me... I just can't wait.

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