Monday, January 11, 2010

Seducing too well (part 2)

The second too-well seduction started months before the first, but is still not complete. The first time we met I felt nothing but slight interest. The second time we ran into each other walking out of the office at the same time. I knew we would take the lift together, then walk through our building's maze of halls for at least five minutes more. Even after that we'd probably end up walking in the same direction, both of us sneaking out early. I was actually a little nervous about making so much small talk, but I had nothing to worry about. Somehow I was given the five-minute mini life story of everything that was that person's life since age 18, and it fascinated me. I just listened. It's amazing how much more effective listening is as a seduction tool than anything else. The infatuation quickly became mutual: mine was firmly rooted in narcissism and a desire to exploit. The thought of my crush made me salivate. The other person's infatuation was... I'm still not completely sure.

It's interesting how I guide people to knowing and adoring me. I do it in a very similar way each time. I have never taken hard drugs, but I find the accoutrement, the routine, the near-ceremony of the preparation fascinating. The way your junky girlfriend might softly persuade you to try heroin before guiding you through the process is how I feel when I let people "get to know me." Everyone is an M.E. virgin when I get them. Deflowering them can either be gentle or rough, but it always follows a certain pattern. Like hard drugs, I know I have certain side effects. They are similar in different people, though of course no two people are exactly alike. But I've never had someone react so strongly to me as this person.

I began this "courtship" with my new crush and realized pretty quickly that I made my crush debilitatingly nervous. At first, I really relished in this power. I was sick from enjoyment every time I noticed a quiver, a tremor, a crack in the voice, a nonsensical sentence. My crush could not recover, though, could not grow stronger. I was winning by too great a margin for my crush to remain interested in playing the game.


  1. Oh look, Daft. M.E. granted your wish.

    Awwww :)

  2. “it's amazing how much more effective listening is as a seduction tool than anything else.”

    Right? Not that I’m into seducing per se, but this little nugget of insight came to me at 13 and I’ve been using it to grease the wheels of social interaction ever since. In so many instances, you need only listen and reflect a few of the “truths” they need to believe about themselves back at them and you’ve got a friend. Or something.

  3. The best part about listening is taht you learn everything about someone, and they learn nothing about you, and they like you more than if you talked to them about anything. They sell themselves on you, it's great and completely work free.

  4. Oh, and I'd meant to comment that this post reminds me of a book I saw the other day in Borders called seduction, written by the author of power.
    The book seeks to explain and teach the power methods of seduction and what kind of control you can gain and use by doing it correctly. It seems to illustrate how weak people can be easily manipulated as well, and it so far looks like a purely sociopathic book, but one cannot judge a book by its cover.

  5. I knew he would, Peter.

    (evil Mr. Burns smile)

    But for real, I figured that ME would follow it up, seeing how the subject matter could be considered a varied version of manipulation and manipulation is like a second language to a sociopath—I imagine its like the many small variants of Mandarin or Cantonese that are spread throughout China, each with a different formation but are basically just an offshoot of one of the two main ones.

    Seduction seems like a form of manipulation to me.

  6. I know that book and based on the few chapters I read, it does seem sociopathic.

  7. Jasnowflake and Daft:

    I've read the book you are referring to. It's called "The Art of Seduction" by Robert Greene. Great writer. I almost think his books are half tongue-in-cheek though, in the same way some people suspect that Machiavelli's "The Prince" was actually meant to be read as a satire. Whichever, I thoroughly enjoyed Greene's books. I think there's lots of pragmatic wisdom in them, satire or not.

  8. Is seduction maybe a form of fetishism?

  9. Intent listening can be seen as emotional mimicry - like you really empathize with what the speaker is sharing.

    Everything can be turned into manipulation, damn.

  10. To seduce is almost like hunting. You see your prey, but instead of racing on up to it and scaring it off, you sit quielty and observe it through the reeds. You watch attentively at the object in its natural environment.
    Slowly you sneak closer, still keeping a comfortable distance, maybe even allowing yourself to be seen in a non threatening way. Thus lulling your object into a false sense of security.

    Then you pounce devouring your victim entirely, taking what you want and casually leaving want you don't. Then take another glance around at something else that has caught your attention.

    Obviously im metaphorically speaking.

    Tink :)

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  13. Harmony, raises an interesting question. You'd have to love them for who they are and not for who you want them to be. And keep doing it. That wouldn't be easy.

    Also, I think you would have to get past the sex without letting yourself be seduced. This part shouldn't be as difficult as the above.

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  15. That sounds foolish to me, Harmony.

    Most of these people don't have any value other than what you feel for them. If that's all you're getting out of the relationship, you're fucking yourself. Thinking this way certainly won't "leave you with no one," either. On the contrary, you'll be able to spend your time and energy developing bonds with people who are worth your time, and your standard of happiness will improve.

    Mr. no-value liar / cheater / manipulator is the one who'll find himself alone, at least until he encounters someone like you. When that happens, you will suffer, and his life will be just a little better as he siphons away your hope, then digests and transforms it into temporary personal pleasure.

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  17. No, it's true for anyone. If all you're getting out of someone is having a person to love, you're fucking yourself royally.
    There are plenty of other fish swimming around, ready to be loved, who have more to offer you. By sticking with the guy who lies, cheats, and manipulates you, you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to have something truly fulfilling. Chances are, he's also interfering with your personal life, so you're actually becoming more dependent on him as time goes on, missing out on more and more opportunities each day. Instead of having someone who is truly a partner, along with a strong social network for support and mutual entertainment, you're chained to someone who will never be your "partner" in any sense of the word, and will likely try to sabotage any social ties you try to form.

    The rest of your thoughts regarding this topic are irrelevant, because you missed my point. Way out of left field.

    I'm no sociopath, and by developing bonds, I mean developing emotional bonds. If you need that explained, I suggest you do some reading.

    Yes, a society of sociopaths would destroy itself. Yes, emotions are usually helpful to the masses, and sometimes detrimental to the individual.

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  19. "I do not understand what you mean re: getting past the sex..."

    Hi, I posted this on my way to work out yesterday and rushed through it. It's late and I'm tired so probably can't do it much justice tonight. Can try though.... what I meant was don't give it all up. Don't give up your "power" with the sex and act like now you have him and he owes you. Take ownership of your desire. Don't make it someone else's burden or responsibility.

    The seducee's fear that ME refers to so entertainingly is about fear of losing control, fear of one's own desires. Desire, shame, fear, ambivalence. Losing control. Fear of trying something new.

    I wonder if there are people, rigid personalities maybe, who can't be seduced?

  20. The problem with sexual seduction, in my opinion(now i could be very wrong) is i assume the majority of women (not all)connect "emotionally" with the guy in some way, shape or form. This automatically makes them vulnerable to manipulation if that is what is on the guys agenda. I can't get my head around it. I have sex because it feels good. It doesn't spiritully bind me to a guy. Therefore he has no advantage.

    Okay, so the guy has fornicated with you. Big deal. Whispered a few sweet nothings in your ear and perhaps sprinkled a few rose petals on the bed beforehand. All a ploy to get into that nice, moist, warm spot inbetween your legs, whilst you massage his ego and tell him how great and romantic he is. Awwww!
    Thats ok, as long as the woman doesn't believe he "loves" her because of this and skips of to the land of cookcoo imagining what her babies will look like. (Thats the time to get a grip!) I just tut and shake my head in pity when ever one of my female friends gets all over excited because " he made love to her". Just a very clever choice of emotive "words" to describe fucking her, to make her feel "connected" to him. Chances are he hasn't emotionally bonded with the woman in the way she has with him. But he will want her to believe that. Bang. Job done. She is now wide open to subtle conditioning. Men therefore seem to have the advantage. Thats what gives the majority of men seducing women the edge.

    Ladies if it is at all possible, try and think about sex "logically". Thats when sexual seduction can't be used as a tool of manipulation. He is having sex with you because it feels so good for him and there is more of a chance you will surrender yourself emotionally. Men have the power the moment you do this. So in my opinion its not actually the sex itself, more the reaction that it can produce in woman toward men that is powerful.

    Tink :)

  21. Nicely put.

    One thing though, is it really emotional surrender if you expect immediate doglike commitment from him afterward? Can’t there be true emotional surrender without all the expectations? Sex is just another way to communicate, connect, have fun.

  22. Hello Zoe, i've been thinking about your previous post. Good question.
    If a woman expects immediate doglike commitment after fornication, she needs to be very careful she isn't underestimating the male entirely.
    I tend to take my logic, right back to the basics. (yes im simple :)...very) lol
    I really believe gender plays a significant role in regards to sex. I think males and females are fundamentally wired differently. Just as empath males and females are wired differently, i believe this to be the same for socio males and females.
    Males seem to have advantages that females don't. Strength being the obvious. Men seem to be biologically predisposed to "spread their seed". I think thats why men are often very sexual. Its a primitive carnal desire. In the time it takes a female to carry a foetus to full term, a single male could have fertilised hundreds of wombs. (take a second to stop and think about the magtitude of that, and the insignifcance of the act of sex)
    I don't believe males are mean't to be in long term monogamous "doglike" relationships due to their nature. It is futile to even attempt to put a guy on a leash, so to speak. Spreading his seed usually means subconcious selective breeding to continue the males genetic's through reproduction. A strong robust female is likely to produce strong robust offspring.
    I doubt intense emotion is involved on a males side whether they be empaths or not. How many men walk away from their own offspring, in search of pastures new?
    Sex is very primal. I wouldn't advise any woman to use sex as a power tool to get immediate doglike commitment from a male. Its a fundamentally flawed strategy in my opinion. One too many woman fall into the idea/trap off, thus further disadvantaging themselves.
    If he see's a better "catch", he will be off. How many males trade up for a younger fitter model? He is subconciously bettering the chances of his genes being spread.
    Im not trying to sound sexist. I am a woman lol, i just think women need to be aware of trying to use sex as a weapon. It will backfire eventually. Whether we like it or not, men have the upper hand in some ways. That just life. :)

    However there is more than one way to skin a cat. There wouldn't be so much shit on LoveFraud, if women used more logic and less "emotion". For what is an emotion? Its a creation in ones own mind. Emotions can fade as fast as they blossom. They are fickle things as the best of times.
    I would go as far as to say they are the bodys natural drugs. All a guy with an agenda has to do is evoke the right one.

    Tink :)

  23. There wouldn't be so much shit on LoveFraud, if women used more logic and less "emotion". For what is an emotion? Its a creation in ones own mind. Emotions can fade as fast as they blossom. They are fickle things as the best of times. I would go as far as to say they are the bodys natural drugs. All a guy with an agenda has to do is evoke the right

    Beautifully put.

    I started to put together a matrix of emotions the other day to see if I could logically capture them in some way. This got boring fast, so I stopped, but it occurred to me that emotions are like color. We don’t have the words to capture each shade and nuance. They’re a kind of very basic language - feeling thoughts rather than thinking them - telling you to run away, move closer, that something’s wrong, or good, or dangerous, adding depth and layers to the world as we experience it. We’re all made differently, and each have our own unique mix of feelings and logic, and experience and express their intensity differently.

    What gets me is that culturally, while we respect logic we’re taught to worship emotion as something mysterious, beyond our control, and that we must submit to its whims, particularly if we’re women. So we do so. I think this is a form of self-manipulation. We choose to feel what we feel, and can stop. But we don’t and hang on to a manipulating guy because it’s an addictive power game, and pretend it’s in the name of love. We’re emotionally retarded that way.

    How I see it.

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  25. LOL I didn’t say that exactly. Emotions are just chemicals in the brain that are induced either by experience or memories. If something startles you it is good to experience fear because that fear gets you to act fast. If it is a memory, it can be good to relive it and learn from, but when you ruminate it becomes an addiction. We are a society of emotional ruminators, hopeless feeling addicts clinging to the thoughts that ensure a steady supply of the brain chemicals that makes us feel the way we feel because we just love to hate to feel that way, in spite of the fact that all those chemical feelings dull the intellect and make it hard to think clearly.

    By stopping or at least acknowledging the ruminations, you control emotions that don’t add any value to your life. Stopping the gossip, self-berating thoughts, and worry works to eliminate those nagging feelings that you’re bad or not good enough, all that guilt without a cause.

    I have no idea really if I’ve ever met a sociopath (umbrella term anyway). Anti-social individuals that I’ve met seem more intelligent, and more cynical, and are prone to kinda hating people at times, and I relate more… and given that last one, maybe I should ruminate and numb out? I was seeing someone once whose emotions were set on mute, and who seemed to compensate visually in a weird way, but he worked so hard at trying to fit in, always observing people, their reactions, almost like a tourist in a foreign land, that he really didn’t fit the image of the "evil sociopath".

  26. empathy vs sympathy vs pity

    I found the following distinction interesting:

    Empathy: When one person understands the other's plight and at the same time maintains a healthy emotional distance, that's empathy. Active thinking is required to calm one's own possible emotional reactivity.

    Sympathy: Sympathy is an automatic, involuntary response to another's emotional state. Babies are born with the ability to sympathize. Hospital nursery staffs know well the phenomenon in which one baby starts to cry and within moments all the babies are bawling.

  27. just a little bit of tripe to wade through on any blog comments page, including this one.
    i had a socio pursue me and all he did was listen, like his ear was permanently tilted in my direction in case i uttered even a syllable that would interest him. it was weird non-conversational exchanges of unspoken intent. occasional mirroring of scant dialogue and then a big dollop of the void!

  28. hese are porn for females and the theme is always the same - A dude that's tough and bad. He might be the dread pirate king or a cruel police chief, or a widower who's moved to some backwater part of Texas to escape his past. The details of the story change but it's always basically the same.

  29. The Hidden Problem with Impatience

    So let's call a spade a spade: Impatience is anger. Expressing the energy of anger can be addictive. Why? Well, for one thing, there is an immediate, though short-term relief of the distress underlying the anger. This is the same reason drinking when one is scared, or eating when one is lonely works- for a few minutes- if that. It's the old short-term gain, long-term pain principle.

    Another reason that anger can be addictive is that the more often we let ourselves imbibe the hot fluid of impatience, the "habit" becomes more entrenched. Tolerance for the feeling of rage increases. And when triggered, we can mindlessly, automatically, escalate from minor irritability to full fledged fury with our loved ones. And we are usually in denial about the effects of our anger on others-as well as on ourselves. This rising tolerance for anger expression explains the fact that domestic violence may start with contemptuous remarks, and over time escalate to more and more dangerous physical attacks.

    The Vulnerable Underbelly of Anger

    Early in my career as a therapist I worked for a foster care agency. One day I had to-literally-take an infant from his mother and drive him to the agency. There was no proper infant seat for my car in this emergency situation and I was terrified for the safety of the child. As I was driving to the agency, I saw a white car almost sideswipe us. In those moments I felt my whole body clench to the hardness of steel. It was a cold hard rage that clicked in, in order to counteract my fear. I saw directly in those moments the relationship between fear and anger.

    Our everyday irritations, judgments and make-wrongs that we experience in relationships may be subtle. We may not even quite recognize that we are being impatient. But those lesser irritations can be so destructive to maintaining the "safe harbor" we all want in our most intimate relationships.

    When everything is going along hunky-dory in our relationships, no problem. But then somebody makes us wait when we are ready to leave, or gives us "the look," or makes a snide remark, or talks over us, or criticizes our parents, or calls us stupid and we're off to the "nobody's going to treat me like that" races.

    And so the cycle goes, first peace, then somebody does -or doesn't do- something, the other one feels insulted, judgmental, or scared. Then comes withholding or attack. And then distance, till the internal pressure builds up. Then the inevitable emotional volcano erupts, leaving even more hurts in it's smoke. There may be anther brief period of peace and then the cycle starts again. How exhausting.

    Well, if you want to escape the endless cycles of barbs and balms, and grow your character at the same time, there is a way out. It's working at developing that old fashioned virtue of patience.

    When Do We Need Patience?

    The need for patience occurs when we are challenged in one of two ways. We either 1) get something we do not want/like and/or 2) we don't get something we want/like. In those instances we have a sense that things are not going our way." That's when our egos kick in. With impatience, there is irritation at something that seems to delay us, at things moving at a slower pace than we want, and at "incompetence."

    These challenges have us feeling more vulnerable, possibly afraid, and we have a knee-jerk response to protect ourselves, our values and anything else that's "ours." That's when we feel the energy charge behind our likes and dislikes. Buddhist's call that charge Shenpa- the heat behind likes, dislikes, opinions, and values. You know it. It's the urgency, the pressure to make it go our way.

    this is a link from a Psychology Today website and the blog is called the Zesty Self.


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