Monday, January 25, 2010

Love-ish (part 3)

Reader:
Agreed that all love has both selfishness and selflessness involved. However, LASTING love eventually evolves from selfishness into selflessness, as it becomes essential to care more about the other person than you do about your own needs. I believe real love contains elements of sincere attachment and commitment that make people stay in the relationship "through the good times and the bad, through sickness and health" etc. Real love is truly defined by how strong it is when life gets hard. Anyone can love when things are easy. That being said, I do not think it is elitist, it just is hard to do. You say that relationships with sociopaths seem to work. Do they? I value your blog and your need to bring society into a better understanding of what a sociopath feels and deals with in a world full of "empaths", however I think we would be hard pressed to find a relationship involving a sociopath that is truly functional (unless maybe it is with another sociopath). The sociopath of course believes the relationship is fine. They are getting what they need from it. But you ask the empath on the other end of the relationship if they are really happy and feeling fulfilled and I doubt you would hear a positive response. In most cases I am sure eventually that relationship is going to come to an end, with the empath feeling like they wasted their time. I have read many of your posts. I remember you writing that you are able to feel love. You have love for your mother, but it is more of just an "outlet" of yourself as she is your mother so it makes sense that you love her. You also wrote that you feel love for people in your life, but it is love "at that time"...and also can turn to intense hate within the same day. Lasting love is more than acting on impulse in the moment. It would appear that "at that time" kind of love does not involve any commitment. No commitment is feeling no attachment. No attachment is at the core of a sociopaths disorder. And a feeling of non attachment is never going to make an empath feel like the relationship is a good one. I do not doubt that empaths, those of us who are not aware yet of who they are actually involved with, or are in denial, or just have low enough self esteems that they do not feel worthy of something better...these empaths might be willing to go through the hardships of a relationship with a sociopath but I am convinced that if you compared the contributions that the empath is giving: they are putting way more effort, concern and selflessness than the sociopath is capable of contributing.

thanks again for your insight. It is very interesting.
M.E.:
Yeah, I see your point. I guess to a certain extent we are just talking past each other. It's amazing how varied the human race is. I love raw oysters, while a lot of people think that is wrong on many levels. I'm not saying my love is better or worse than yours, I am just saying it is different, some people might prefer it, others might hate it. The fact that we are so varied could be an evolutionary accident as you seem to suggest, or there could be some more valid reason, as I believe. It would be very difficult to prove either way, and I'm fine with that.

61 comments:

  1. M.E.
    The thing is -- we know what we're talking about when we talk about eating raw oysters. It is easy to share our opinions about something when we have a basic, functional, shared definition of the topic we are discussing.

    But I think, in your exchange with your reader about love, you are indeed talking past each other. You have no common frame of reference, no agreed-upon definition of love.

    It reads as if one of you said "dog" and meant an elephant, and the other said "dog" and meant a kangaroo.
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  2. anonymous is watching you
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  3. From Adaptation by Charlie Kaufman:
    You are what you love not what loves you
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  4. I disagree with this, reader: "And a feeling of non attachment is never going to make an empath feel like the relationship is a good one."

    The converse is true for me because my definition of non attachment is based on reality thinking.
    When you say "good one" are you talking about a delusional kind of love? I have found a relationship based on non attachment is far more rewarding than one based on delusional thinking. It has been for me.

    Anytime you throw love into the mix you're talking about variables, using love for a catch all word when it may be nothing more than being validated by a sig other. Look what happens when it's taken away. Love flies out the window! I find it perplexing how we can say we love someone yet it all turns to hate on a dime when the other person 'changes'. So much for love. This is something we empaths do; set ourselves up as willing victims simply because we want to believe someone else is responsible for our happiness, and when they don't fit the role we've assigned them, we suffer. We empaths do love to suffer! We've been programmed on hallmark card love so most of it's based on delusion. I consider myself empathic yet I believe that detachment can be a healthy thing. The reader talks about love like it's noble to go down with a sinking ship, ascribing that to empaths yet this is something sociopaths do as well. So what are we really talking about here, reader? Isn't it far more rewarding and right to give love without expecting anything in return?
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  5. "Look what happens when it's taken away. Love flies out the window! I find it perplexing how we can say we love someone yet it all turns to hate on a dime when the other person 'changes'.

    Then it wasn't real love. Even love created through falseness doesn't behave that way.

    Not to say that in getting hurt one doesn't experience anger and there isn't a defense of the person in the direction of detachment. But it hardly flies out the window by any means.
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  6. I think if you love someone and it’s “true” love, it isn’t driven by need or fear or worry. You are exactly where you want to be, no matter where they are. It’s not love if you have to put a cage of emotion around them, or jump into their cage. They shouldn’t have to feel it when you feel it just because you feel it. If they don’t, they don’t. If you love them you give them space in your mind, which means allowing in some uncertainty, and relinquishing control. It means allowing them to choose not to love you.
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  7. I'd say that is mostly true but if someone does love you back this does feed into it. It can be a part of it. I doubt one could love someone who is calling them dogshit all the time lol. To empathize that someone is feeling similarly about you is the most intense bonus there is. And I think people do want or need to be loved. People are not pure angels. I think your last sentence is especially true and again it is putting them before you.
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  8. I think if I had to define or describe love in one word, that word would be grateful.
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  9. I like that. Better than entitled.
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  10. I think to keep alive the connection means disconnecting so that you can reconnect again, or the feeling goes away. Then all that’s left is the memory of the experience repeating like a rerun. I love my morning cup of coffee and look forward to it every day but if I had to have one every five minutes all day long that would spoil my love.
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  11. I think it is possible to actually truely love someone who is ungrateful or doesn't love you back, (without acting a complete fool about it, like soooo many do lol) If you have feet. Walk. Simple. It is ok to love oneself.
    Love that is reciprocated with soon catch you up anyway in my opinion, and if it doesn't ,.. well thats life :)
    Love often isn't equal. How can it be? Is anyone really on the exact same page at the exact same time? Accepting that and still loving the actual "core" of someone, regardless of aesthetics, change, personnal gain, class, culture, race, gender, behaviour, sexuality, etc, or even pyschology,... to me is fundamentally what qualifies as honest love.
    In my mind people/society slap way too many labels/expectations on "love", almost turning it into something that is mysterious, romantic, awe inspiring or even "unattainable".
    Its pretty basic in my opinion.( Then again everything is basic in my opinion, 1 + 1 = 2 and all that, see i am a mathematical genius!)
    You shouldn't have to stop and think about what love is if you have it or feel it. Love just does.
    For instance, if my hypothetcial scenerio presented itself, if i had to stop and "think" if "i push the other to save myself", then logically in my mind id have proven my own point. :)

    Lust can often be confused with love because of all those intoxicating "deceptive feelings" it produces. Which in itself is manipulating. I think the difference between love and lust is that lust is based on the "outer" and not the "core". Its the exact opposite of love yet can be so misleading.

    Proper love doesn't render a person "weak", "vulnerable" or "pathectic"...like many people would believe, but lust does. Thats the real delusion in my opinion. There is some gargantuan strength that derives from real love, (in any of its forms) that shouldn't be disregarded or underestimated. I think its actually a basic survival instinct. If you can run to save your life from danger its because you love it. Ha.
    I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of if one is capable of "love", because not everyone can do it.
    Take a look around the entire world and your'l see just how obviously rare love is and how it is used as a smoke screen lol.
    I just don't believe that loving someone equals "doormat".
    Nobody has the right to wipe their feet on you. Thats where a persons self esteem/ self respect comes into play. A person doesn't have to fuck their own head up in the name of "love", because if one does, chances are you never had love anyway. So smile...cheeeese! :)

    Tink.
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  12. I think L is deeper than just a happy high feeling. It is more ultimately a place of joy, calm, clarity and peace.

    Most love coffee because caffeine is very addictive and alters brain chemisty and body function. Most would suffer from caffeinism by the first hour and be dead by the fifth hour at that rate. And without it, one would be pretty miserable for a time as well.
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  13. Okay maybe my morning cup of coffee was not the best example.

    “Joy, calm, clarity and peace” pretty much says it all. Strange to imagine it would ever evolve from just a happy high feeling.
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  14. So the S loves differently. They like to cause pain, sorrow, heartbreak, suffering and worse. Depressing one into a suicidal state seems to be a favorite.

    I mean, it's one thing to be jaded, skeptical, cynical, disillusioned, to believe love and feelings are delusions caused by an interplay of electrochemical reactions and to thoroughly dislike people. But to actively work to create misery and suffering is just beyond any logic I can imagine, no offense.
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  15. According to this article, it is only the psychopath who truly has no remorse:

    http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/psychopath-vs-sociopath.html
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  16. Good point. But that’s generalizing a bit, isn’t it? You're also implying that what they love and what they love to torment is the same thing.

    But regarding the tormenting part, and leaving out the predators, which show up in both groups, I would say it depends on whether you think it’s more justifiable to react with emotional outrage when someone provokes you or to act in a cold calculating manner to get even. Why is it less scary when someone loses control? I don’t see the logic in that. Shouldn’t we be more afraid of the empaths and their random emotions?

    But then emotionally, I have to admit it does creep me out a bit to work with someone who is actively causing suffering around them. Been there. So what do you do? Quake with fear, go postal or find a way to get even?

    It's always always all about who has the control. The empaths just don't have it.
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  17. I'd imagine when someone loses all control they leave a bit of a mess? When a person calculates, there is "no mess", so to speak.
    Obviously premeditation is a little more sophisticated wouldn't you agree?

    Leave an emotional mess, and your likely to get caught in the chaos.

    Set time aside to plan, less mess created, more time to clean up.

    In my opinion that is the difference.

    Tink :)
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  18. whats the point of being human without "true" not delusional or hollywood Love?

    whats the point of being human without truly having a conscience and no remorse or guilt?

    you might as well be dead, even if you're not the greatest person, or your wicked or this or that, at some point, something has to click that whatever it is you're doing or thinking is wrong.

    it makes me shudder to think people of this caliber actually exist, and i consider myself a cold and serious person in my true nature but i do go out of my way to help others or be a good friend, and not hurt people on purpose, etc. there are times when i feel nothing and other times my emotions are genuine acts of empathy in case of death,torture misery, seeing someone suffer or cry or stress...

    i like this blog because of the various topics and my interest in pyschology from neurotics to sociopaths to pyschopaths to narcissists... and because the author doesn't glorify deviant behaviors associated with sociopathy

    in regards to Love, i also value "true" Love when you know without a doubt, a blink, a second thought that you would lay your life down for that man or woman. i aslo know it's "true" Love when you haven't had sex or infatuated with his or her looks but know each other for a year or two and you feel romantic love that just won't go away
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  19. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5zZl-ojL_g

    This video was made for me by a Nigerian scammer who I am baiting, with a bit of help from his friends. The scammer thinks I am George Bush, and that I have contacts in the music industry who will make him a big music star, he even thinks he will be performing live at the White House.
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  20. there's another nigerian scammer sitting in monrovia liberia right now, thinking he's part of a great criminal empire run by a man code named sh1va destroy3r. he has traveled all over africa to rob the s1mba s4faris vault of $9,000,000 in cash gold and diamonds. he has spent nearly every penny he has and has been living on the streets in monrovia liberia for 5 days, so very far from home. yet still he believes in the criminal organization run by sh1va d3stroyer and the 15+ fictional characters who have been directing him all around africa in pursuit of the ultimate criminal payoff.

    perhaps he will die there. one can hope.
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  21. three scammers were involved in trying to scam a charity located in an african warzone, thinking they would steal hundreds of thousands of dollars. they were directed into the warzone to pick up their money. after a long hard journey, and many unforseen complications, two of the men have vanished and have never been heard from again. the third who traveled after them is worried that he will be killed if he returns to nigeria without the two other scammers. shame.
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  22. yet another scammer was manipulated into traveling to a foreign country in order to meet a contact at a bank who would produce a huge payoff. when he arrived, he was to approach the counter and give the code word, which in the native tongue meant "i have a gun" the man was arrested for attempting to rob the bank.
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  23. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 08:15 AM
    Scammer Whisperer, what is your point? You do have one, right?
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  24. mr daniel the point is left up to those who read. i am merely conveying information that due to the nature of this blog and the type of people it attracts may be of some interest.
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  25. Ok i admit i can't be arsed to type in the link.
    I do however get the gist that a guy robs a bank. Ok so what has that got to do with M.E's post?
    Call me stupid "but whats love got to do...got to do with it" lol

    Tink :)
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  26. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 08:32 AM
    Oh. I see. Well I’ll be sure to tell my Nigerian friends Shaboodie, Abboobboo, and Ralph that the Scammer Whisperer is on to them. I don’t know how they’ll be able to live with the terror of it all, but I have to believe that somehow, some way, they’ll survive.
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  27. daniel your comment illustrates the weakness which makes scammers vulnerable. they don't take this seriously and believe it will never happen to them. or they believe that only nigerians or 419 scammers are targeted. any scammer from any country is fair game. there are hundreds of people participating in the sport, and the community gives out trophies and awards for various achievements ranging from making them travel to closing their bank accounts to getting them arrested to getting them killed.
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  28. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 09:36 AM
    Of course I don’t take it seriously! I’m not a “scammer”, Nigerian or otherwise, so why should I? Small time con games would not interest me per se. So if you’re telling the truth then by all means, enjoy yourself! Collect those scam heads on a string, hang ‘em up over your mantle piece, etc. As Buffy is to vampires and Dexter is to serial killers, so must Scam Whisperer be to flim flam scam artists everywhere!

    We still don’t know what this has to do with either ME’s post or any of the preceding comments on this thread though. Hows about we just label this a tangent and call it a day?

    Carry on Scam Whisperer, carry on!
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  29. Getting people killed seems a little nuts too.

    These people don't care. They like fear, it feels good. I bet you are most likely snagging non S's anyway. Perhaps victims of S's.
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  30. how do you consider a small time con game mr daniel? these scammers earn hundreds of millions every year, and they milk individuals or even entire businesses for months or years. some of them earn more in a year that you probably earn in a decade, and they are usually working within international networks dealing with fraud, forgery, kidnapping, ransom, etc.

    if this is small time i shudder to think what big time is to you. enron maybe? well mr daniel if you are of the calibur to pull off an enron without getting caught then you are a truly amazing individual.

    however i would not put it past some of the people here to participate in fraud (major or minor) or think that romance scams are an easy way to earn a living.
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  31. these people get themselfs killed chasing illegal money from victims such as charities. we tell them to go to a warzone and they go because they want to steal from a good people trying to help others. now you tell me what kind of normal person willingly will go into a warzone to steal from a church that helps the poor. he could easy have say that is too dangerous to go just to rip off good people. so if he go and get himself killed then good for everyone and is his choice. awards is given and everyone move on to a new scumbag.
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  32. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 10:25 AM
    You are right Scam Whisperer to point out my ignorance of this apparently highly important issue. I did not know that the Nigerian scam industry rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Then again, there is a sucker born every minute, so why shouldn’t the industry be a growing, thriving one? And if there really are Scam Hunters out there having a grand ole time bringing those flim flam artists to “justice”, well who am I to object? Anyone stupid enough to fall for one your “sting operations” deserves whatever he gets. As Julia Child would say, bon apatite!

    But yes, if I were to be a scam artist of one sort or the other, I’d be more interested in seeing if I could pull off a Worldcom size con myself, but that’s just me. Even so, no, I am not a con or scam artist. You have to figure that pulling off Enron/Madoff type cons can’t be good long term strategies because the longer it goes on, the more likely it is that the scammer in question is going to get caught. Perhaps over a few years, with a clear payoff and exit strategy, along with sound contingency plans in place, maybe. But I would not do it as an ongoing thing.

    Romance scams… Now that’s a horse of another color. I suppose some people here have done that. Or least, would seriously consider it. I’m neutral on that myself. I’m not saying I would or would not. I haven’t though.

    now you tell me what kind of normal person willingly will go into a warzone to steal from a church that helps the poor.

    Who knows, who cares? I do however love it when so called normals dehumanize others as a means of justifying their predatory behavior. The person they decide to hunt becomes “abnormal”, a dreaded other, (an evil sociopath) which means it’s perfectly ok to destroy them. Dehumanization is a great way to end cognitive dissonance and keep hypocrisy hidden.
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  33. mr daniel you make it sound as if it is normal to do such terrible crimes, or if we have made these people the way they are. it has always been that these types of people are not deserving of compassion. it is not something we have done to justify. your verbal hocus does not work when the truth is shown so plainly. we have outlet for predatory behavior but we did not make these people what they are and did not make it immoral to do it so it has always been in every society it is nothing new. you live in a small world where the things these people do is justify as normal until just now, but this has never been since before man first establish law.
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  34. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 12:10 PM
    Scam Whisperer said, “mr daniel you make it sound as if it is normal to do such terrible crimes, or if we have made these people the way they are.”

    Really? Where’d you get that? That isn’t what I said or meant. I was talking about you and your apparent glee at sending scammers to die in warzones. The fact that you read the statement that I quoted into my comments however leads me to believe that it is somehow connected to something you believe about your prey and yourself. Is this part of how you ease the guilt you feel at the thought of using other people’s misfortune (being the victim of scam artists) to entertain yourself and satisfy your lust for vengeance? You turn fellow human beings who break the law into animals that you are then justified in destroying to satiate your own brand of blood lust. It’s perfectly fine if that’s how you and your fellow Scam Whisperers get your kicks. Like I said, enjoy!

    it has always been that these types of people are not deserving of compassion.

    The only people “deserving” of compassion are children. I like children. Always have. They are the best of humanity. Then they become adults. Bleh.

    your verbal hocus does not work…

    Hey, I resent that! I am the Magical Mr. Mistoffelees!

    you live in a small world where the things these people do is justify as normal until just now…

    You know, I do not do this whole justification thing. I don’t bother with it. And if I did, the only person I need ever justify anything to is myself. That’s just how I roll son.
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  35. no bird dick you say very clear

    "Who knows, who cares? I do however love it when so called normals dehumanize others as a means of justifying their predatory behavior. The person they decide to hunt becomes “abnormal”, a dreaded other, (an evil sociopath) which means it’s perfectly ok to destroy them. Dehumanization is a great way to end cognitive dissonance and keep hypocrisy hidden."

    which mean word "become" is the same as become, mean that we make them that way either in deed or in mind but this have always been how they are in deed and in mind it is never that we make them this way. yes you talk about us make them this way, but this is how they have been always it require no action for us.

    when these men do nothing wrong then they are deserve of compassion but whatever happen to them while they try steal and kidnap is not for compassion it is for whatever happen is their doing. we are not justify anything we are choose what we do based on what is ok. justify mean we do something wrong then make reason for make it ok. it is already ok when we do it we have no make anything, it is how it always have been.

    i hope you understand ok.
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  36. Hmmm? For some reason i feel a little dizzy after reading that last post. Must be the wine. lol

    So anon, to put it in a nutshell, you are suggesting that age old adage of, "an eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth?".

    Tink ;)
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  37. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 01:04 PM
    Sorry SW. I was under the impression you understood what I meant when I used the word dehumanize. To dehumanize someone means you, through thought, word, and/or deed, strip away those qualities or traits that you believe all real humans possess in your mind, thus making it easy for you to treat them as you would any non-human entity or object. For the individual, i.e. you, this process happens subjectively, meaning it happens inside you. In a very real sense, dehumanization has absolutely nothing to do with the person you are dehumanizing and everything to do with your own thought processes, emotions and actions. It’s not about what someone else becomes, it is very much about what you believe about that person. For instance, and to go ahead and break Godwin’s Law, the Jews who were killed during the Holocaust did not suddenly become worthy of the German’s anti-Semitism. The German’s hatred began and ended in their own minds. In a similar sense, scammers’ actions do not require a vindictive response from you. You choose that all on your own. As my daddy used to say, two wrongs don’t make a right unless you decide it does. Either way, and just so we’re clear, IT IS ALL ON YOU.

    And SW, right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder. Literally. You don’t need to bother with justifications of any kind (like making someone else less than human) unless you believe you owe someone else an explanation.

    Do you understand?
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  38. no i do not but that is ok because you are evil and i do not understand evil. you play like there are no good or bad but society have decide that long ago is not matter of race or choice is decided and made into our being from first day of man. you dont understand because your brain is rotten but for all else we know it is not choice for any of us to make it is how it is and those who are crime are deserve all they choose to do to make the crime and all that it bring upon them when it is their choice. i do not now expect your rotten brain to understand but i have hope it was not so.

    tink it is not eye for eye it is they are doing wrong and they punish themselfs for it we just make it so they can. we tell them there is money for them to steal in warzone and they run run to steal from the church. we do not kill them we only let their greed harm and humiliate them and all they do is their choice.

    mr daniel think in the ego term he think this all about us all about the individual but his brain has rotten since birthed from his mother. while they chase lies and fairy tales those who they have normally steal will have their reprieve, and when others see how this evil brings death and humiliation upon them they will say no, this is not for me, and people will be save. it is make entertain for that we can stay motivate to keep ppl safe for otherwise it is very boring job. mr daniel can not understand this for his brain think only me me me me like the small brain of scammer while we think we we we we. he can not understand the difference and think all thing are always back on me me me.
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  39. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 02:10 PM
    Scam Whisperer:

    It must be my destiny to attempt to have interesting conversations with people who speak English as a second (or more) language today. But unlike the other person, I think we understand each other at a basic language level. The disconnect between us is where it often is, at the level of self honesty. If you believe the things you have written here, then you are as deluded as most other people. Good and evil were decided “from the first day of man?” Your motivation has absolutely nothing to do with an “eye for an eye?” Really? You are completely powerless to stop yourself as you send the scammers rushing into warzones huh? You are entertaining yourself this way as a means of keeping people safe? It’s all about qui, qui, qui is it? If you really do believe this stuff then you have already been thoroughly and successfully scammed by the most insidious and most capable scam artist of them all: your own brain. Even now, people’s ability to believe in bullshit never ceases to amaze and enthrall me.

    Thank you, btw. Since I started commenting on this blog, I have been called an asshole, narcissist, grocery clerk, schizoid, dick, and a psychopath. I think I skipped a few of them, but my memory isn’t what it used to be. You are the first person here to call me evil. YAY! But it’s Dr. Evil to you Mister!

    And since you, like so many others who comment here oddly enough, seem to be immune to sarcasm, that last comment is my way of saying I give up trying to take your words half way serious. Good hunting and Gawd speed, Scam Whisperer! May the force be with you and may evil beware your mighty vengeance and go Speed Racer go! And all that good shit.
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  40. mr daniel still you are not understanding how this is working if it is not me who say they have money it is someone else and they will go wherever there is the money but when i say i have money in warzone from church it is not different for them except the only one they risk is them the only one they hurt is them you are still think this is about me you try hard to make about me but it is about stop the evil thing they do and stop the hurt they do to other. you are confuse and think some false dichotomy about good and evil must be absolute or not exist but life is like box of jellybean there so many flavor you cannot say there is only 2 good and evil is not need to be absolute it is decide by what man is in our bodies and our brains for every man but it is not a choice it is what we are in our dna's. it is we, it is not me, it is not the choice of me, it is not the choice for anyone.

    you email me and i will show you all the evil they do i will send you the proofs of their evil and all the hurt they have cause to people who just have hope for better themself and their family and think god have smile at them. you will see that these people always deserve their tongue and that
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  41. Daniel BirdickJan 27, 2010 02:57 PM
    SW, you had me at “false dichotomy”. It’s one of my favorite phrases.

    I am not talking to “them”, I am talking to you. It is all about you. Your choices, your emotions, your beliefs, your life. They don’t force you to think anything. You do that, because of your genetic makeup, your psychological history, the society you were born and raised in, your socio-economic background and so on. All of this colors your beliefs about other people, scammers included. The power for how you see people belongs to you. Always has. That’s the trick, the secret. But because you, like so many others, believe with all your heart that this is not so, because you refuse to think for yourself, you are in effect, giving your power away. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you get scammed. Self deception, a refusal to introspect and dependent thinking are the hallmarks of gullibility. It is easy to get someone to believe a lie when they have years of practice lying to themselves.

    I did not say there is good and evil so the false dichotomy charge doesn’t stick, does it? Remember, I said the exact opposite. Accordingly, there aren’t even shades of gray. There are only various people’s opinions about what is and is not good, that’s all. In fact, it’s possible that there are as many gradations between good and evil as there are people. Think of it, 7 billion shades of morality. Which hue is the right one, the true one? None of them are true for everyone. Having said that, there is some truth to the idea of morality being written in our DNA. According to what I’ve read, we are programmed with a very basic moral vocabulary that is then filled in with colorful detail by family and society. And yes, although there is variance among different societies, there are also some universals. But that’s a far cry from suggesting that good and evil objectively exist. And it certainly doesn’t negate anything I have said about your refusal to take responsibility for your own beliefs and behaviors. You Scam Whisperer are irresponsible. By projecting your beliefs onto these scammers, you are in effect absolving yourself of your right to self determination under the guise of moral outrage. It’s a common practice to be sure, but that doesn’t make it true.

    Ciao.
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  42. you are right. i have all wrong.
    i will stopping at once mr daniel

    i am sorry
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  43. Dolos of NigeriaJan 27, 2010 03:52 PM
    Daniel, you've said before that good and evil don't exist because they aren't absolute, which is exactly the same as saying that they must exist as an absolute, or not exist at all. This is the ultimate false dichotomy.

    Further, you charge that there is no grey area, then subsequently admit that the basic, universal components of good and evil are hardwired into our DNA, except for those who suffer from genetic antisocial disorders. Obviously, these rules do exist objectively, they simply do not have objective meaning. I would call that a pretty big grey area.

    I think what our friend was getting at was that you're stuck in an egotistical mode of thinking, assigning value only to your own subjective opinions, because you lack the genetic programming which would connect you to the group identity in a way which supercedes individual thought. Essentially, you're "think me me me me" while he "think we we we we". You aren't built the same way, so you're incapable of comprehending that the assumptions of his "we" are objectively at least as valid as the assumptions of your "me". Thus, good and evil are hidden from you, though they are no less valid than your opinion that it's stupid to jump off of a bridge. That isn't an absolute, either, is it?

    Now, do you think you could convince yourself that it's SMART to jump off a bridge for no particular reason?
    If not, does that make you irresponsible? Does that mean you are effectively absolving yourself of self determination?

    Let's take this a step further. When you don't eat, are you really hungry? Hunger isn't an absolute, now is it?

    We can break this down as much as you like, and say that because these concepts and feelings that are hardcoded into our DNA aren't absolute physical entities or universal laws of nature, then they're not real and thus meaningless, but that would mean that every single thing you say or do is meaningless, and that everything you do is absolving yourself of self determination, which doesn't even begin to make sense. Even when you refuse to believe wholeheartedly that Catherine Zeta-Jones is a martian who came to earth to fuck the president and piss in the Mississippi, you're just being irresponsible. Dead end thinking, friend.

    I don't know, Mr. Daniel, anonymous makes a bit of sense to me.

    But anon, you should really stop fucking with the poor Nigerians, assuming you ever did to begin with.
    ReplyDelete
  44. You know what, anon? I don't like you. You presume to have all the answers, and that's never a good thing. The problem with people who have a conscience is that they seem to think of their conscience as an absolute. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Daniel was arguing against that, and this mystical wannabe-objective view of things is ultimately irrelevant. You're just a jealous piece of shit who wishes he could be what these sociopaths... erm... scammers... whatever you want to believe they are... are. They exist in a world which is ultimately their own, which seems to be what you're striving for. You're certainly arrogant enough.

    NOBODY CARES FUCKO!
    ReplyDelete
  45. Anon, Dolos, whatthefuckever. You're all gay. FUCK YOU!

    (I'm just kidding. Send me kisses. I love you all!)
    ReplyDelete
  46. Woah!... anon, i've gone cross eyed after reading your posts! #vigorously shakes head!#, thats better. Jeeeeesus! (lord forgive me)
    Your words were far superior at scrambling my already fragile brain than any prescription drug i've ever tried! :) (please, again forgive me, im really not "egocentric"...or maybe i am?)

    I think i need to lay down...or just need more drugs?
    Anyway, im going to write this one off as "you say tomahto, i say tomarto".

    I think i got a general idea of what was being debated? Still have no idea what it has to do with love?. Have i entirely missed the point anon?

    Tink :)
    ReplyDelete
  47. Father DearestJan 28, 2010 06:52 AM
    I'm glad to see my old favourites are still here.

    I might start joining in again.
    ReplyDelete
  48. Ok DB stop stealing my ciao and phrases you just read 'somewhere else', Im a master at patterns. Dont be defensive now;-)
    ReplyDelete
  49. Daniel BirdickJan 28, 2010 10:21 AM
    Um, excuse me Miss Minnie Mouse, but I didn’t know you owned the copyright to Ciao. Ok, maybe I did, but what do you expect from a deranged sociopath with a rotting brain? ;-) And what phrases did I pilfer from other sources besides the obvious showbizzy ones like “Go Speed Racer go!” and “may the Force be with you” and “all that jazz?” You’re taking all the fun out of being evil!
    ReplyDelete
  50. So, basically, you're leaving your door open in a bad neighborhood, lacing your apartment with traps, and then saying, "Oh, look! That evil burglar got himself shot! It wasn't me!"

    Cute.
    ReplyDelete
  51. I might have to try that. The real thing, I mean. I'm thinking nozzles that spray sulfuric acid, rusty nails contaminated with anthrax and cyanide, a couple starving pitbulls, maybe a rabid bear.

    ME: "I don't know, officer, he just wandered in and got himself killed."

    COP: "Why do you have anthrax?"

    *** Short Pause ***

    ME: "There are drugs in the room where that terrible growling sound is coming from. You should go check it out."
    ReplyDelete
  52. Father DearestJan 28, 2010 12:42 PM
    I actually own the rights to "Oh, you again."
    ReplyDelete
  53. link some find helpful:

    http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/06/24/sociopaths-psychopaths%E2%80%94just-call-them-evil/
    ReplyDelete
  54. Daniel BirdickJan 28, 2010 01:39 PM
    FD:

    Damn. I guess that means I gotta pay you to. Jesus H. Christ! Wait… does that mean I have to pay the pope too? FUCK! Wait… now I gotta pay Tiger Woods!!!

    Aspie:

    You disappoint me man. Those lovefrauders are like ipecac to my delicate digestive system. I get all gassy and nauseous when I read some of the comments below the self righteous posts. I know. It’s my own fault for actually looking at it though, isn’t it? And the whole “evil” thing is so last millennium. Good and evil are for psychological children. Your previous comments indicate that you’re smarter than that.
    ReplyDelete
  55. I have only ever ventured onto "love fraud" once due to mention of it on here, and that was enough for me! In fact i couldn't be arsed to read the majority of it,(story of my life) ;). Just because someone has been a "victim", doesn't mean they have to act the "victim" and mop up tears for the rest of their life. Recognise the signs, learn from past experience, then.. get on with it! (Call me ignorant). I understand the author is trying to "help", but how is scaremongering every female that reads the damn blog helping? Its a sure fire place to go if you want to develop paranoia/agoraphobia!... "Is your spouse displaying these behaviours?..."is your neighbour displaying these behaviours?"..."maybe your beloved pet is displaying these behaviours?", "did you know that tree over there could be a potential sociopath?"...the word "obsessed" springs firmly to mind. Quick! where is the valium! EVERYONE a person has ever come into contact with on that site is a "potential" SOCIOPATH! da du dum dum du DA! Now, i ask myself this?, "how is "that" healthy?". Isn't it "Ironic", don't you think ;).
    Im all for educating oneself, but love fraud just doesn't cut the mustard for me personally.
    Hey maybe the guy was just a complete and utter jerk for fuck sake. So what if you have a sociopath/psychopath in the family. Doesn't mean you have to let him/her screw you over! (repeatedly, may i add). Get a grip lovefraud! To a certain degree people treat you the way you allow them to. That is my point! Educate oneself by all means, but don't buy into victim mentality. Its retarded and it will not help....

    #now breeeeathe#

    Actually, maybe im just being a harsh little bitch......yep, as i thought...pmt is coming on.

    yeah yeah i know "way too much infomation" lol

    Tink :)
    ReplyDelete
  56. interesting link from lf:

    http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/06/08/ask-dr-leedom-is-there-a-gender-bias-against-men-in-the-diagnosis-of-sociopathy/
    ReplyDelete
  57. Its fascinating how people get all selfrighteous about lovefraud when really its the same they do about this site. its all the same business.

    DB
    1. You are hilarious ( dont you just hate it when you have talents that just go to waste on internetforums)
    2. Yeah you are a quick learner speech/language wise, its almost disturbing when I see how literally and fast you use things you just read:-)
    ReplyDelete
  58. Yeah Disney, you have a point...
    infact your probably correct actually.

    However, i still think love fraud is a pile of shit.

    Tink :)
    ReplyDelete
  59. Father DearestJan 29, 2010 05:36 AM
    The thing is, I don't have a problem with love, but I have to agree with DB on the matter of lovefrauders. I fucking tire of them. I'm sick of this "My ex was a sociopath *sigh* never seen eyes so blue..." blah blah blah. Heard it all before. If we are to believe these twats then surely there are millions more sociopaths than we first suspected.
    A friend of mine wept in front of me, telling me her ex was "one of [my] kind... so manipulative", and - having met him - I said "No he isn't. Because he's no good at it.". If you can predict his next move, sweetheart, he isn't a sociopath.
    ReplyDelete
  60. Wow. This blog is really shedding some light on sociopaths and what they are like for me. I had no idea of all their characteristics aside from the inability to feel love or guilt before reading about this just today. I was inspired to look up some things by the film Girl, Interrupted. Thanks Angelina. Seriously now I'm wondering if I have ever met a sociopath before.

    So far from reading a couple pages from this blog I'm led to believe that most sociopaths live a life of stage play and lie constantly about who they are. Do any sociopaths out there manage to be honest and real about who they are in public or do they all fall into this sad little game of pretending to be who they're not? I don't know it just seems like a pretty sad existence. I don't think I could live that way. Is there a particularly high suicide rate among sociopaths? I would think so, I mean who wants to live like that?

    Do sociopaths actually have real friends or are they incapable of caring about others period? I just wonder what it would be like to be a sociopath and have children. That sounds horrifying. I feel bad for those children. If you can't even form loving relationships then I doubt you could supply a child with the intense love they require. I can just imagine. A sociopath getting upset and seriously hurting their child then feeling nothing...not because they don't want to but because they can't. That would just be terrible.
    ReplyDelete
  61. Cordelia,
    When I'm out and about with people, I am being me, even though it might seem like I'm pretending. I'm not sure how to word this in a way that you'll understand, but I'll try.

    Let's say that you're a compassionate person, and you see someone who is really hurting. You want to make them feel better, so you give them a shoulder to cry on and do your best to cheer them up.

    Are you pretending?
    Are you being fake?

    I don't think so. I think you're being true to yourself, even if your compassion compels you to go above and beyond what you'd normally do.

    For me, it's similar, except my desires are exclusively selfish. I don't care about making anyone happy unless it will help me in some way. I also don't care about being honest with anyone. I don't see the point in it. So when it suits me to be truthful, I'll be truthful, and when it suits me to lie, I'll lie.

    And just like you'd do strange things to aid your friend in need, I'll do strange things to aid myself. It comes as naturally to me as you hugging your friend comes to you.

    Does that make any sense?

    When I'm playing person A, I am person A in my own mind. I'm still marching to the beat of my personal motives, but in my mind, I'm more or less whoever I'm pretending to be.

    Once everyone leaves, though, I snap out of it immediately. I lose all personality, and pretty much act like a very lazy, very bored robot. My mind is always on what I want and how to get it. Even if I'm only on step 1 or 2, my mind is working along steps 3, 4, 5, 6, and alternate paths along each, until I get so frustrated that I'm still on step 1 that I switch to another goal and try that, or find something else to keep me stimulated so I don't have to go so crazy about everything I want, how much I want it, what I need to get it, etc.

    Social interaction requires far more focus than normal planning, which is why I love being around people. I can focus on what I want, but it takes so much constant focus on each and every instant that my mind doesn't have a chance to get 10 steps ahead and drive me bananas. You never know how someone will react to what you say and do, and you always get immediate feedback. It's perfect.

    Alcohol and sex are some other great alternatives, as are thrilling experiences like (good) amusement park rides, and doing things that could get me in trouble. Anything that overwhelms me, but leaves me with a feeling of control, is heaven.

    Hope that helps.

    I'm not an evil person.
    ReplyDelete

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