Sociopaths by definition criminal?
Some have suggested that sociopaths are by definition criminal. Even if that were clinically true, I think it is false practically speaking. The whole study of sociopathy is junk science at worst and misguided at best. Almost all studies of sociopaths have been done with the prison population, if not all. You study the prison population, and criminality will obviously end up as one of the defining characteristics of a sociopath. This is irresponsible. It would be like studying black people only amongst the prison population and listing criminality as a defining characteristic of being black. What if we studied homosexuality only amongst the prison population and extrapolated to the entire gay community? Would we think that homosexual sex was always antagonistic, a nonconsensual way of exerting social dominance? As one sociopath reader puts it:
Having respect for property doesn't mean it's not property. People keep their yards clean, and I prefer to keep my life, and those in it, clean. I don't think a person has to be essentially malicious to be a sociopath. As a sociopath, your perceived mal-intent boils down to how you'd treat your environment. It's unfortunate there's no broader diagnosis that doesn't require a preoccupation with cruel or criminal behavior. It doesn't seem so different from using a specific diagnoses for obsessive people who have a thing for cars, without having one for obsessive people in general. If you remove the specific interest, you still have an obsessive person; though, if you were to remove the obsessive traits, you would have a normal person with a hobby. If you remove the destructive tendencies from a textbook sociopath, you still have a man without a conscience--what I believe is the foundation of the disorder; however, if you give that same man a conscience instead, what's the essential difference between him and the rest of humanity?
The diagnosis of sociopathy now is just like any medical diagnosis ending in -itis: doctors generally don't care why whatever you have is swollen, they're fine using that one symptom to "diagnose" the disorder. Similarly equating us with criminal behavior, although not entirely inaccurate, is not very useful. Sure, we may sometimes commit crimes, but so do a lot of the otherwise law-abiding seeming people who haven't gotten caught and the other 80%-ish of the prison population who aren't sociopaths. And how is it that the rest of the sociopath population is not in prison? Are we all just very good at not getting caught? What a scary world that would be if all of us sociopaths were out committing heinous crimes all the time and walking amongst you. No wonder there are so many people deathly terrified of sociopaths.
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Some have suggested that sociopaths are by definition criminal. Even if that were clinically true, I think it is false practically speaking. The whole study of sociopathy is junk science at worst and misguided at best. Almost all studies of sociopaths have been done with the prison population, if not all. You study the prison population, and criminality will obviously end up as one of the defining characteristics of a sociopath. This is irresponsible. It would be like studying black people only amongst the prison population and listing criminality as a defining characteristic of being black. What if we studied homosexuality only amongst the prison population and extrapolated to the entire gay community? Would we think that homosexual sex was always antagonistic, a nonconsensual way of exerting social dominance? As one sociopath reader puts it:
Two comments.
ReplyDeletethe whole study of sociopathy is junk science at worst and misguided at best.
Agreed. Outside of Hare’s work on psychopathy, and from what I’ve read it’s also controversial, there’s isn’t a whole lot of precision. There is, however, loads of stereotyping.
If you remove the destructive tendencies from a textbook sociopath, you still have a man without a conscience--what I believe is the foundation of the disorder; however, if you give that same man a conscience instead, what's the essential difference between him and the rest of humanity?
That’s as good a line of demarcation as any. Are you, for all practical purposes, without a conscience? Anyone who suspects they fit along the sociopathic spectrum of behaviors should ask and answer that question for themselves.
One minor quibble. I'd leave out the disorder descriptor.
Sociopaths have more tendencies towards crime because of their disrespect for authority, lack of acknowledgement of societies morals, antisocial behaviour, lack of remorse and guilt, early behaviour problems, etc etc.
ReplyDeleteI understand that the author is saying that not all sociopaths are criminals, but you should understand a large number of criminals are sociopaths. 75% APD and 25% of those are sociopaths. I find it hard to argue that sociopaths don't have a tendency towards crime. Equally, I find it difficult to say that crime is neccessarily a negative thing anyway. It's just a way to cut corners in our climb to the top.
Nation of typical empaths go to war with nation of typical sociopaths.
ReplyDeleteWho wins?
One will die for country and cause.
One will rat out their brother if it's in their own best interest.
Empathy is an evolutionary advantage. Many, many of humanity's great inventions and breakthroughs were born out of love for humanity, country, family, or all of the above. Where would we be, as a species, without it?
If you were around in the stone age, would you be dedicating your life to discovering the wheel, or would you spend your time making sure that you got enough food to eat at the expense of others?
I think the descriptor fits.
Don't let your sociopathic traits cloud your objectivity. Many sociopaths are nowhere near as functional as you all seem to be. Sociopaths are overrepresented in prison for a reason. They can't control themselves, because they're born without the ability to see why it's necessary to do so. That is a disorder, with which some manage to cope, while others fail miserably.
Anonymous said, “Empathy is an evolutionary advantage.
ReplyDeleteNot always. One lone but intelligent sociopath uses the masses belief in country and cause as levers to manipulate them into doing his bidding, for instance.
But generally speaking, empathy, or the instinct to bond, has been advantageous to the species as a whole. I’ll grant that. Beyond that, what’s your point?
I think the descriptor fits.
This is where the lack of a commonly accepted definition of the term sociopath becomes problematic. You could be right in what you’re saying BUT the “problem” could also be the lack of whatever it is that hinders certain criminals from taking consequence into account, which in and of itself might be a separate issue. In other words, unless you believe that all people who fit the label of sociopath are unable to control themselves, what you’re saying about it being a disorder doesn’t necessarily follow. And even if it were proven that sociopathy equals uncontrollable criminality, it still doesn’t follow that it must necessarily be labeled a disorder. Spending time in prison is not necessarily proof of disorder. One man’s “disorder” is another man’s virtue. We’d have to define what we mean by disorder, why that definition should be normative, then couple that definition with one of sociopathology, and then explain why that definition should be normative, producing evidence all along the way. Roughly speaking.
Do you want to know if you are a sociopath? Ok, come with me please.
ReplyDeleteI am going to line five objects in front of you raised waist high on pedestals and you are going to stick a knife in each of them.
I guide you to the first object, an orange, and ask you to stick a knife in it, and you do, standing back to watch the syrupy nectar ooze from the lush fruit.
I then walk you over to the second item in the line, a steak, and you stick a knife in it, noticing as you do that it is undercooked.
We then move over to the third thing in the line, a noisy human head displayed sideways on a pedestal with its body and legs kneeing beside. I ask you to stick a knife in it, and you do, watching the eyeball pop and its contents ooze like the nectar from the orange.
I direct you over to the fourth item in the line, a modal airplane, and you stick the knife in it, watching the wings crack in the middle and the toy modal crash to the floor.
You quietly note as we head over to the last item in the line that you once enjoyed building modal airplanes as a child.
We finally arrive at the fifth object in the line, a dish cloth, and you stick the knife in it, turning around with a smile and waiting for my verdict on how you performed.
Look at your hand typing on the keyboard. Is it any different from the keyboard, or the orange, or the steak, the modal airplane, or the dish cloth? What makes something different-perhaps the meaning we attach to it? That is precisely what makes something different, and nothing else, think about it.
The sociopath never internalized the moral components of his culture. He never learned that a modal airplane is different from a human head, or that the oozing of an orange should be perceived any differently then the oozing of an eyeball. The sociopath isn't bad, he is amoral. Objects are to him what they are in nature, meaningless, or rather objects of gratification--so they possess some meaning, but only that which gratifies the sociopath. Where for normal people and so-called "secondary sociopaths", meaning--or symbols attached to objects--may consist of, for example, safety (home)and nurturance (parents). If something is meaningful, it has the power to move and effect--feelings, emotions, beliefs, and values. To the sociopath everything, and I mean everything, are objects of gratification; they do not differentiate the computer table from the human arm, both can be chopped up and stored away in boxes in the basement.
I know you all feel rejected by society or in someway resentful of it, but labeling yourself a sociopath will not solve your problems or justify them. Just to make sure you don't block out what I am saying via denial or rationalization, I want you to ask yourself these questions:
"Do I love my parents?"
"Could I kill my parents and friends if I could get away with it?"
"If all my friends died would I be upset?"
"Could I run up to a pregnant women getting into her car to go to the hospital and stab her protruding tummy with a bread knife, pulling out fragments of the fetus as I disengage, smiling and laughing at the stupid bitch who should of been on the look out?"
"One will die for country and cause."
ReplyDeleteWe generally make the cause that you die for and the pragmatism to make that a reality.
One will rat out their brother if it's in their own best interest.
I think it's safe to say empaths break before sociopaths do. We actually care about our image.
"Don't let your sociopathic traits cloud your objectivity. Many sociopaths are nowhere near as functional as you all seem to be. Sociopaths are overrepresented in prison for a reason."
Sociopaths run your country, empath, and they generally run everything else. You forgot to mention that we also have a larger number of CEOs represented. You need us as much as we need you. The shephards always need sheep.
Is anyone here actually diagnosed with a personality disorder?
ReplyDeleteFor you folks to even be motivated to engage in these discussions requires empathy, think about it. Nothing what so ever can be gained by conversing with "fellow sociopaths". In fact, your presence on the site negates you being one; psychopaths are way too paranoid to flaunt their inherent difference and I don't blame them. They have to be nuts to risk exposure It is hard enough for them to fit in.
ReplyDeleteLol, you have used the criteria of a mental disorder as a means of finding people you can relate to, generalizing the traits to your and even creating in-groups and out-groups: empaths lol. You have no idea how deeply empathy permeates your lives. Simply acting like you don't care about people is not enough to say you lack empathy--try harder.
We already have a definition for disorder:
ReplyDeletedis⋅or⋅der
/dɪsˈɔrdər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-awr-der] Show IPA
Use disorder in a Sentence
–noun
1. lack of order or regular arrangement; confusion: Your room is in utter disorder.
2. an irregularity: a disorder in legal proceedings.
3. breach of order; disorderly conduct; public disturbance.
4. a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions; malady or dysfunction: a mild stomach disorder.
Note 2 and 4. An irregularity, a dysfunction. Shall we define dysfunction as well?
dys⋅func⋅tion
/dɪsˈfʌŋkʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-fuhngk-shuhn] Show IPA
Use dysfunction in a Sentence
–noun
1. Medicine/Medical. malfunctioning, as of an organ or structure of the body.
2. any malfunctioning part or element: the dysfunctions of the country's economy.
3. Sociology. a consequence of a social practice or behavior pattern that undermines the stability of a social system.
Note 1, 2, and 3.
Sociopaths have a disorder. They are dysfunctional. They're like cancerous cells that no longer play by the rules that keep the organism as a whole alive and healthy.
You can argue semantics and say it's all a matter of perspective, but when you break it down, sociopaths are, by definition, dysfunctional. They are broken. They cannot feel empathy, and the benefits of their natural strengths are, like those provided by the "strengths" of cancer cells, unsustainable. Left unchecked, the organism, including the cancer (that's you) will die.
Anon, you're right. We've got plenty of sociopaths at the top of the food chain. Just look at Enron, and you can see how much we need them, how well they do when they fail to cope with their disorder. Truly amazing things. We definitely need them.
See, the thing about empaths, is that they can run a business, too. Having empathy doesn't make you stupid, just reliable and more likely to be trustworthy. Provided there were no sociopaths to contend with, business would flow more smoothly than ever with nothing but empath CEOs. Take away the sociopaths, the world continues to function without a hitch.
Take away the empaths... and you've got a world of chaos on your hands. Look at how well this little social experiment of a blog panned out. Everyone is at each other's throats constantly. You can't have a meaningful conversation without someone trying to make a power play or ridicule someone.
That image you talk about? What's it matter in a nation of sociopaths. You all maintain your image to appeal to the empathetic masses, and if that's the only thing keeping you in check, I don't think anything more needs to be said.
And yes, sociopaths innately have poor behavior controls. Does that mean you can't learn to look out for your best interest? No, of course not. That's what coping is all about, and that's the difference between a high functioning sociopath and your run-of-the-mill sociopathic, criminal loser who lives to get high and manipulate people into amusing him. There's a lot of gray area in between as well.
I'm not arguing that it can't be advantageous at times to be a sociopath, or to have one (temporarily, as always) on your side. There are plenty of fields where a lack of empathy is extremely helpful, provided you can control your impulses. Again, high functioning.
If you're really so intent on believing that something so obvious dysfunctional, as a whole, isn't actually a disorder, be my guest. You're only fooling yourself, so what's it matter to me?
so what's it matter to me?
ReplyDeleteLOL! Indeed.
As said before: We need you empaths as much as you need us. Where would you be without us to lead you. I just wish the site was more about harnessing skills instead of empaths scrambling to be a sociopath like some cult or a therapy section for the depressed.
ReplyDeletePager, that's where you're wrong.
ReplyDeleteEmpaths can lead empaths. Sociopaths are just better at manipulating them into following--for the wrong reasons. You function within a niche, and that niche is all you've got. Most of it involves imitating what you don't have: empathy, loyalty, honesty, integrity. With that plastic personality masking a predatory inner being, it's easy to win out over genuine, but imperfect, people. At the end of the day though, it's still just a cheap imitation of something that's inherently present in a great many empaths.
My point is that without sociopaths, empaths function and prosper just fine. But without empaths, you sociopaths are just plain fucked.
Don't delude yourself into thinking it's a two way street.
Daniel,
I'll take that as the concession it obviously is.
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI'll take that as the concession it obviously is.
APPLAUSE!!! YAY!!! LOL.
Take it any way you like my friend.
I got bored.
Pager, that's where you're wrong.
ReplyDeletePager has a lot of things wrong. Like thinking sociopaths don't suffer from comorbidity. He is under the delusion that sociopaths are super beings who are almost robot like. Except for being SUPER POSITIVE! Which totally doesn't speak about his own issues. Nope, not at all.
Look at how well this little social experiment of a blog panned out. Everyone is at each other's throats constantly. You can't have a meaningful conversation without someone trying to make a power play or ridicule someone.
ReplyDeleteI blame pager for sticking up for his borderline girlfriend and for being black, of course.
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteWe can argue all day who would survive without who, but the reality is the existance of both since the dawn of time. We serve our purpose, and you serve our purpose. This is the state of affairs like it or not. I dont see what issues you have with people being pragmatic. It's definatly something empaths lack.
We will gain leadership through whatever means we feel is neccessary, you are right there as well. What do you expect? You think we can change who we are? Almost all empaths I know have no idea I am what I am, they just say I have good leadership skills and I'm persuasive. They have no idea what I'm thinking and have no clue they are pawns. How can it be wrong if nobody knows? Like a tree falling in a forest type thing. At least now their life has purpose. Thunderball has spent the last couple of months in here being manipulated and he never knows either. Is that wrong?
Lastly to my beloved thunderball:
We've established who the one with issues is Thunderball. Dry your eyes and cut your wrists.
We've established who the one with issues is Thunderball. Dry your eyes and cut your wrists.
ReplyDeleteStop hiding, the best you've got is that i've... exposed myself. But you sit back in comfort while blasting everyone with your Tony Robbins positivity. I know nothing about you. I'm sure if I did I could rip you apart. But alas, I know you will never expose yourself even to the tiny degree I did.
I won't you're right. It's not what I came here for. Maybe you should try some of that positivity. It'll work wonders in your life.
ReplyDeleteThunderball has spent the last couple of months in here being manipulated and he never knows either. Is that wrong?
ReplyDeleteManipulated by who and for what goal? Jesus, you are delusional.
"HAHA, I've manipulated the guy posting under Thunderball to do my evil deeds! The world will be mine soon! MINE!!!!" pager aka. delusional crazy
I won't you're right. It's not what I came here for.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to have made the pager id singly to attack me, at least until you had thought I was gone. You lose.
Maybe you should try some of that positivity. It'll work wonders in your life.
hahaha
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ReplyDeleteWassup, Peter!
ReplyDeleteI'm going to end this argument with a quote from, jascumflake. Dumbass bitch fell fell into my trap even though she knew what I was doing. So good, so tasty.
jasnowflake said...
Thunderball you entertain me. It's so much fun to see people get all worked up over you, not knowing that they're feeding you, completely. That they're insults are laughable because they're only being manipulated by you to hate them... And they still try. How do they not see it? You practically tell them. It amuses me greatly.
July 8, 2009 12:34 AM
All I can really say now is.... aaahahahahahahahahahahahaha! I love it bitches!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNo, no, keep going, both of you. This is fucking awesome.
ReplyDeleteNaa, I'm done playing with the robot retard sticking up for his cunt girlfriend. He can go ahead and continue his american psycho imitation. Though I do appreciate him dancing to my tune with such a positive attitude.
The concession was implicit.
ReplyDeleteBoredom is a wonderful crutch.
I'm with anonymous on this.. Such intelligent words, shut them all down with not even an incoherent debate! Lovveee ya anon.
ReplyDeleteHe conceded a while ago, but alas he can't help himself. Jsnowflake inspired me to get fluffball all worked up. It wasn't hard seeing his history of throwing a tantrum when anyone mentioned his name. This guy's hilarious. Like a depressed Jim Carry.
ReplyDeleteIt is on the contrary. You've been dancing to my tune my friend and I've been laughing at your comments the whole time. You even have to post after thoughts, then post post-after thoughts on any comment I make. You must lie awake at night like you said earlier.
I admit you are at loss, since I don't post personal things about myself on a sociopath website, then again what sociopath would. That's not cowardice my friend (Typical empath's false feelings of honor), that would just be plain common sense. Something you, fluffball, seem to lack. You certainly try to 'game' (what a nerd word to use) it out of people since you already regret making that big mistake. You've had everyone from some guy named after the captain of never never land to a criminal fuck with you. Now it's my turn. How awful it must have felt to have everyone kick your emotions around on this site and have to defend your sorrows. This is a lot for you to answer, so let me end here. I'm sure It'll take you four post-post-post-after comments.
No thunderball, actually, on this one I have to agree that you've lost complete control of your argument and are being manipulated. Your responses to each attack show an obvious amount of insecurity, and the fact that your responses contradict each other every time you post shows their defensiveness and therefore your complete loss of control. You made yourself vulnerable by posting so much about yourself and are now reaping what you sow. You even conceded and thus had the upper hand for a moment, but your lack of self control and inability to let it all go, as I said shows your insecurity, and you've handed the power you had over people into the hands of Pager. It's actually kind of funny to see you being the mouse in the cats paws. I'm ever more amused by you now than before.
ReplyDeleteWelcome back snowflake. We were just talking about you. You've missed so much.
ReplyDeleteLooks like all that blowing didn't do you any good, big bad. The three little biggies are still pulling a train on that once-tight asshole of yours. Thunderball, how does it feel to be raped by three fat, smelly midgets?
ReplyDeletepager:
ReplyDeletequestion for you on the ' how to read people like a sociopath' thread if youre willing. youll have to scroll from bottom up. Its at: JULY 29, 2009 8:15 AM