Tuesday, February 21, 2012

Defining who is a monster

There's something that I liked about this comment on a somewhat recent post, but also a lot of it I wasn't sure if I understood.  Empaths, does this sound at all accurate as a depiction of how you feel, as a group?


There's a deep psychological reason why sociopaths repulse and scare. I may not be able to explain in sufficient detail right now, but it has to do with the fundamental cosmological view of the empath.

I'll try to explain:

1. Everything that happens, happens within the mind. There is no distinct difference between real and imagined experience; sensory input stimulates the brain, which creates conscious awareness; but imaginary stimulus can also stimulate (we all know this via the imagined realism of dreams).

2. We do not, nor can we ever, know that other human beings are conscious. Other human beings may be imaginary zombies.

3. Yet, logic dictates, other beings like ourselves must experience life similarly.

4. A solipsistic view of reality becomes feasible, despite an innate urge to imagine others exist.

5. Therefore, if our own experiences AND those of others cannot be known to be real, we can at best conclude such information to be irrelevant. What, then, is real?

6. Only the interrelationships BETWEEN conscious beings can be real.

7. Therefore: Empathy.

8. Because empathy is a human being's only solid grasp on reality, the creature incapable of empathy is a monster that threatens reality itself. This is a danger even for introspective sociopaths who realize the nature and meaninglessness of their own existence, because they may then decide life is not worth living and engage in destructive behaviors.

I hope this makes sense. I've tried to make sense of it for years, but it's hard to put into words. 

150 comments:

  1. Are you saying that the only thing that makes a person "human" is empathy? A dog has empathy, so we can bond with a dog. A tiger does not, basically, so we cannot bond with it. Is that kind of what you mean?

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    1. Where do you get that a dog has empathy and a tiger does not? IS there a retard in the house?

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    2. I had a pet tiger once, and I bonded with it.

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    3. Dogs have empathy. Empathy is sensing in yourself the feelings of someone else. Dogs do this. I mean, have you ever had a dog, Genius?

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    4. Bonding is not empathy. Your dog has a very limited sense of empathy. If anything he is a low functioning borderline, with his freakn NEEDS and quest for constant stimulation. Ugh. They're extremely self centered. Even Haven says there is only hope for borderlines and empathy. My dog lies to me all the time. He actually checks in with me visually to see if i am looking when he steals from me. He is a pathological liar. He only says he's "sorry" after he gets caught. Then he snuggles. Cause HE'S cold and bored. Cause HE wants attention. Fuckn licks my mouth after he eats Freakn SHIT on the GROUND and from the cats litter box --hullo is that fucking considerate? Then he licks my mouth --cause it smells like food! He is helplessly driven by food, is a binge eater and affection slut. Borderline.

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    5. Yes, but dogs recognize emotions in the human and respond. That is empathy. Is it not?

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    6. I don't know. Dogs are very sensitive to change in energy around them. Responding to it is empathy? We can be anthropomorphic about our pets. It would seem dogs want to please you. That is empathy?

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    7. They may be empathetic, but only to a limited degree. The ability to feel others emotions within ourselves (ie: us empaths) is based in part on the fact that we have those emotional capacities within ourselves. When we see someone demonstrating some emotion, our brains trigger the same emotion withon ourselves. Since dogs don't have the same range or degree of emotions, they technically can't be empathic in the same way another human is.

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  2. No, the only thing that grounds you to society is empathy. Without the energy between you and others, you question your existence too much. This is where things become strange. You know you don't NEED people to make you happy, because inner happiness cannot be attained from relationships. You would like to exist though, no matter how comfortable you've become in your existential bubble.

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  3. Thank you for a very comforting post, ME.

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  4. As much as I like this explanation, isn't empathy just another sensory stimulation that may or may not be imagined? It's still just neurons. :/

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  5. I agree with "Not Eden," the idea of reality vs imaginary is something I've pondered for years. And I guess, you can never know what is "real," because all anyone has to base decisions on, are their own perceptions. This has to include empathy! Just because you feel a bond or empathy towards a person, doesn't mean they feel it back to you (as you should be aware from the content of this blog). Or even if that they exist at all. "Interrelationships" are relative, but only perspectively.

    Afraid you'll have to do better than that to prove our monstruous nature.

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    1. Welcome Not Eden Anything that makes the real Eden go away is a great thing he he

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    2. Um, try actually responding to Not Eden if you are trying to respond to Not Eden.

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    3. if eden wants to be turk, sister christian or anon 1, i don't care. just stop being a horses ass

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    4. I don't get it. How are Turk, and Sister Christian, being a horses ass? By commenting on the blog?? Who's anon 1? I don't see one here with that name.

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    5. Anon 1 was a eden trying to act as if he was stalking monica.

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  6. I can't make sense of it either. It only works if you start with the premise that empathy = good, and work back. Am I a monster because my connection to you is based on a rational decision, the things I like about you, rather than a hormonal rush? Man, that's harsh.

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    1. Empaths are naive, favouring chemical reactions they can't explain over rational decision making.

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    2. If you ask me, they're the monsters.

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    3. you are not a sociopath, dipshit eden

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    4. I agree anon. I would even go so far to say that our "rational" connections are more "real", because they are based on the *actual* attributes of an individual, as opposed to some ephemeral feeling or emotional projection.

      But I believe in objective reality, so my mind is unfettered by soplistic angst. :)

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    5. I think most people believe in "Objective reality" Solipsism is a Philosophical conundrum that people attampt to avoid, but all rationality relies on this uneasiness that we can never be totally one hundred percent sure that objective reality exists, because the mind is the only thing that is aware that things are rational; the mind is all "we" have to go on. the old kantian tension. plus there are at least three types of solipsism in philosophy.

      "because they are based on the *actual* attributes of an individual" yes you are right, but there are other *Actual* attributes you choose to ignore or have no ability to see. just because you are blind doesn't mean colour and shape don't exist.

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  7. They're mostly too cute to be monsters. Pokemon perhaps?

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    1. Whatever they are, Empaths are Alien to me.

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    2. @ M.e. ... Can we have a poll? We need a SW card game - Top Trumps style - with attributes, scores and stuff. OYK can be the most deadly Sociopath (100 Charm, 1000 Violence), Fed Up can be Uber Empath.

      Discuss ... :)

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  8. Themes misses ZhawqFebruary 21, 2012 at 4:53 AM

    Zhawq is a monster for not posting more often. I miss having something entertaining to read.

    Theme song for Zhwaq "................" missing just like he/she is.

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  9. Your question, M.E., won't be helpfully answered by an appeal to empaths "as a group," but I can give you a firm "yes" as an individual. I have long said empathy is my only redemption (or defense) from solipsism. Even if we exist as solipsistic bubbles, and I think we probably do, empathy is the golden road to penetration into an Other, enlarging our own and converting both into a shared subjectivity. Your commenter has it accurately through 7. The final bullet is dramatic flourish.

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    1. My socio offered this Whitman poem in his attempt to express the same struggle:


      A noiseless, patient spider,
      I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
      Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
      It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
      Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.

      And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
      Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
      Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;
      Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;
      Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.

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  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  11. My family keeps telling my not to make choices based on emotion. They just don't seem to get it.

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  12. Existential theorizing and Solipsism? This is what you're basing "reality" off of?

    Why don't you throw a dash of dada-ism in there while you're at it?

    Your start off with, "we can't know if anything is true", which invalidates any possible "conclusion" you can come to as being potentially true.

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  13. "8. Because empathy is a human being's only solid grasp on reality, the creature incapable of empathy is a monster that threatens reality itself."

    This is something I can relate to. I have a tendency to shun anything that threatens my, "solid grasp on reality". I guess it's foolish, but I'm only comfortable with people who think, and feel like me. :) I'm starting to get more comfortable with your articles, M.E. They might just help me understand the thinking of people NOT so like me! :)

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    1. the intellect level drops in here daily.

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  14. Empathy and selfless are two different things, and people are on a spectrum always. A lot of different notions are getting mixed up in the discussion above, clearly hard to isolate different notions. Some even suggest that a sadistic person can't be an empath, and we all know that's not true.

    One safe definition of empath could be that empath projects his/her feelings unto others, whereas a sociopath is unable to do that, accordingly more alert in his presumptions.

    ME, the reason you did not understand the reader is there are jumps from some of the numbered items to their following number without any logical inference. The person may actually have a few steps of reasoning in her thinking and is skipping those, or is just flying by the seat of her pants.

    As for decisions. People can switch between rational and emotional based on the situation, based on perceived threats and rewards. This applies to both empaths and sociopaths, they don't stick to one or the other (as in rational vs emotional) in decision making. Easiest decisions are when rational and emotional are aligned, and there is a good chance we are all actively trying to align our rational with emotional.

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  15. http://psychopaten.startkabel.nl/

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  16. I have a question for Alterego. Do you ever feel what another person is feeling from the same feeling rising up in yourself? That is how I would define empathy. I may be wrong in that definition, but it seems right, to me.

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    1. No. Does that actually happen to anyone?

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    2. I feel it all the time, Alterego.

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    3. Seriously?

      I understand sympathy. I only recently discovered that "empathy" is purportedly different. I can force myself to imagine what someone else might be feeling and react accordingly, but I don't actually share their emotional state.

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    4. I will describe how it feels, Alterego. If someone tells me they broke up with their boyfriend, I will feel how it felt when I broke up with mine. Then, I can offer words of help because I KNOW what they are feeling, exactly, or close.

      Do you relate to this?

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    5. I dunno, wouldn't that be sympathy more than anything else?

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    6. Well, if that is sympathy, what is empathy?

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    7. Remember there is a scene in Terms of Endearment the mother can feel her daughter's pain in the hospital and starts shrieking at the nurses to put her pain to rest? The mother was feeling the daughter's pain as if it was her own and panicking as if she, herself were the one in pain. Is this normal empathy?

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    8. I am very new to this Conversation so I hope no 1 minds if I step in here. My whole life I spent feeling like a freak because up until 2 years ago I didn't have a name for what I am. I am an empath. My mother thought I was psychic, my father and siblings thought I was bipolar. My friends thought I was "freaky" or a "witch". My doctor thought I was a hypochondriac. And everyone else just thought of me as weird and a loner. For me, being an empath has been both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because my insticts towards anything or anyone dangerous to me or those around me are impeccable. And a curse because I am so "in tune" to others emotions and even their physical pain that I have a hard time being in public places or in crowds because I can't discern between what is actually MY feelings or if it is someone else that I am tuned into. That is what being an empath is like to me.

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    9. Where Monica feels for someone who "tells" her they broke up with their boyfriend and they are sad, for me they wouldn't have to speak a word. As soon as we were in the same room I would automatically feel as if I experienced a loss and would know my friend was hurting.

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    10. What Monica is feeling is how "she" felt when "she" broke up with her "own" boyfriend so in essence, yes, she is being "sympathetic" towards her friend not "empathic". That is the difference between empathy and sympathy Monica.

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  17. Empathy is when you can feel the happiness of a person next to you as if you are that happy/sad/lost/confused/joyous/.... a wide range of feelings. Accordingly, to avoid feeling sad you try not to make the other sad. To feel happy you also want others happy.

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    1. So, you're saying that the emotional state of empathic individuals is entirely contingent upon how others around them are feeling?

      Is this true, empaths?

      Now I want to go and interview all of my acquaintances on the subject.

      Or maybe not. Some of them already think I'm a little deficient in that department. Christian women are suspicious of women who don't cry easily. Heh.

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    2. I am a Christian, Alterego. This is what happens to me. If someone is hurting, I can feel, from my own experience of that emotion, WHAT that person is feeling. I think this is empathy. I do not force it. It happens as breathing.

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    3. Maybe you are psychic!

      Do you like astrology?

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    4. Special Psychic for AssholesFebruary 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM

      *I* am psychic. Eden is an ass wipe. How did I do? That will be 100 dollars he he

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    6. To Alterego.

      Our emotional state isn't CONTINGENT upon how someone else feels, but it can be affected by the emotional states of others around us. Like a tuning fork. It isn't all passive reception, though. We also generate our own emotions to varying degrees. It's a complex symphonic dance.

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    7. Special Psychic For AssholesFebruary 21, 2012 at 11:53 AM

      Does anyone else have any questions for me?

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    8. Yeah, why does my cunt stink ? I mean I douche weekly ?

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    9. Yes. Why won't you post under your own name, Erin? Most of the regulars here know it's you, so why persist with various pseudonyms? Lack of courage? Fear of ostracization? *Own* who you are, woman. It will make you stronger.

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    10. Special Psychic for AssholesFebruary 21, 2012 at 12:11 PM

      That is an interesting question needing much thought. I have it. You got near eden

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    11. Yes. Alterego, why don't YOU post with a real name? Chicken ? Fucking pussy, you are nothing but a fancy Anon.

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    12. Because I have no desire to broadcast my sociopathic tendencies to anyone who might know me in real life, bright ass.

      I own all my words on this blog, because I truly don't give a rat's ass what anyone here thinks of me. Anyone who does would do well to find a new place to vent, commiserate and philosophize. We aren't exactly a warm, welcoming bunch, are we? :p

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    13. Alterego, I did not say 'entire'. Empath will be happy when someone gives some goodie no matter how the goodie-giver feels, for example. Empath will also pretend to be happy assuming the gift-giver wished to get that sort of response. Sociopath will decide whether this is in his best interest, in terms of receiving future goodies. Aspie will tell the truth and say "I don't like this, you may want to give it to someone else' if that's the way aspie feels about the gift. And, I sure have some of that aspie in me, and if I feel the person is close enough to handle the truth I always prefer to give the truth.

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    14. And Erin, your response doesnt make any sense. You won't own your posts because *I* got near Eden? I have noticed that your logic starts to deteriorate when you feel stressed or pressured.

      You reveal much about yourself, and your brand of Christianity, with your relentless snipes against Raven. It is one thing to defend yourself or your views, but quite another to disparage someone behind their back because you lack the courage to confront them directly.

      Believe it or not, I am saying this to help you.

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    15. who the fuck is erin?

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    16. Monica, you are Erin.
      Sniping anon, you are probably Tik. Am I correct?

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    17. I don't play dumb identity games. I am Monica. You can think what you want, Alterego.

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    18. Okie dokie Monica.

      So sniping psychic is Erin? And you are...? Bible Anon? Anyone else?

      Aww whatever. This type of game gets boring, fast.

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    19. Monica, you say you don't play dumb identity games. Really? I could have sworn it was you who got mad at a couple of anonymous posters the other day, and accused them of being Eden.

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    20. Blast from the Past
      Orgasm Series because it fits SO good
      WHO is......................... Monica/Tik/Bible Anon/Erin/Sniping Anon

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  18. Empathic sadist is more dangerous than sociopathic sadist, and does not fit my description above. Such as life, hard to generalize.

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  19. I agree with Haven, if you start your argument with "we can't know if anything is true," it invalidates the rest of the argument. Also, just because we feel things is not to say that those feelings are real or true. I somewhat envy the socio his rational decision making because I feel that could be and often is far more true than whatever fleeting emotion I could be feeling at any moment based on hormones or brain chemestry. Then again, I don't tend to be afraid of socios in the first place. They are what they are as I am what I am. I'm not going to start penpal-ing some John Wayne Gacy type, but I don't see the point in validating the fear as it can only lead to a mob and torches situation, and I don't want to be any part of that.

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    1. Socios arent really known for their "rational decision making". They are known for their lack of impulse control.

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    2. Unless they are higher functioning sociopaths.

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    3. ^^Fake Alterego :)

      I am pretty "high functioning", in that I am self-aware and have no desire to truly hurt others deliberately (most of the time) but I have terrible impulse control. It is my greatest impediment.

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    4. Problems with impulse control may be a common ground for the empath and the socio for different reasons, then. An emotional response has been know to lead to an impulsive action, at least in my case. I will concede that "rational decision making" may have not been the best choice of words - what I was trying to assert was that a socio who is unencumbered by emotions would have a more rational observation of a given situation, where as I, being the emotional creature I am, would have more trouble doing so. Assuming this were a situation where the socio could remain objective - say, politcs - his reaction would also be more rational as it was not influenced by emotion which is often faulty at best. I guess what I'm saying is that a sociopath is a better voter because he could focus on the issues instead of the emotional rhetoric that every candidate likes to employ. That's just one example, but I think it's a good one.

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  20. Yeah... no. That explanation would assume that every empath naturally believes they're the only one who is conscious, or real and that empathy is the only thing that suggests otherwise. I, for one, live too much in the present to consider such a thing even for a second (or perhaps it's that I'm too simple, haha). And if reality really IS an illusion and everyone else is just a construct of my mind, what would it change? It's pretty clear that I can't effect my reality by simply thinking about it like I might a dream, so there's no difference. So the reader's explanation is out the window so far as I'm concerned.

    What I fear about sociopaths is simply the idea that someone could be 'emotionless' and not care about the pain of others or even take pleasure in it. (not that that's a trait exclusive to sociopaths) The fact that they're so good at that certainly doesn't help, haha. If you wanted to try to dig deeper, that ties strongly with a fear of the unknown and outsiders. I don't know what it's like to think like a sociopath, so my mind is quick to make the jump that they are outsiders, as outsiders they're scary, and since they're scary they must be evil. Obviously this a false conclusion to make and quite frankly very prejudiced, so I've been dismantling this view step-by-step, from the bottom up.

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  21. torturing animals for fun is verrrrrrrrrrrrry rational.

    believing you are automatically greater than everyone else is verrrrrrrrrrrrry rational.

    lying to make yourself look better is verrrrrrry rational.


    psychopaths are completely submissive to the egos demands, which makes them anything, but rational. autistics are raw and pure, they do not live in their ego, therefore they are logical. psychopaths are corrupted.

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    1. I agree with you. but you're leaking.

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  22. People think socios are monsters because its hard to understand (even with blunted empathy) how others can deliberately, maliciously harm others.

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    1. People deliberately, maliciously harm others all the time. Just watch the news. Unless you think the 5% of the population is responcible for 100% of the crime.

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    2. lol good one^^^

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    3. I should have said persistantly.

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  23. Hi,

    Why do psychopaths/sociopaths socialize? Even when there's absolutely nothing to gain. And when your friends ask for help, you guys help them, even when it puts you at risk. I read a lot that children that are psychopaths tend to be loners, so why do you need to go grab dinner with your buddy when you're in your twenties?

    Thanks.

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    1. You answered yourself.

      Good job!

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    2. We help friends and put ourselves at risk? What psychopaths are you reading about? Do you mean borderline? (they care about others)

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    3. What a stupid fucking question.

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    4. People have to like you before you can use them. Like bludklot asked, are you stupid ?

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    5. I said "even when there's nothing to gain" that means even if there's nothing to be used. Do I have to explain everything to you morons?

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    6. Boredom. Interacting with others takes the mind off the self. If the self is "eating itself", what better way to make it stop than to focus on something else, something outside the confines of the endless monotony of your own brain.

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    7. "I said "even when there's nothing to gain" that means even if there's nothing to be used. Do I have to explain everything to you morons?"

      There is always something to gain dummy, use your fucking mushy brain and try to connect the dots. Gain could be having someone to call at 3am when my car brakes down on the hwy.

      Simple minded fuck. You are too dumb to answer.

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  24. Just met a man with that socio charm. It really is hard to say no, these guys are too cute. Decided to play.

    I take his steam off by saying I like his claim on me, yet I am gone as he turns his back not playing the game as deeply as he'd like. Hide and seek, till he stops seeking.

    Such a cutie to observe how he smoothly manages his pursuits on more than one woman at the same party. As an empath I need to regulate after each little escape, otherwise I am fallen all over for him. Curious if one of the other two ladies will fall for him.

    He keeps asking questions that have no depth, but very powerful at the superficial level; could convince an uninitiated as sincere interest on his part. He takes shark-like bites, intermittent, at his speed, as he wishes. All I can do is hide when he is not suspecting and come back after pressure-equalized.

    Themes, any song to fit this situation?

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    1. You are diagnosing him as a psychopath from being charming? Fuck, you armchair psychologists are everywhere. Remember that most charming people are not psychopaths.

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    2. Hi Sceli
      Themes could put up a classic song given to Daniel. It describes a woman who does not want to be seduced by Mr Sexy as Hell. Alas, we all KNOW she has no chance next to his charms

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    3. Oh, well. Yes, you are right, Themes. If he decides to make his hunt he will definitely get what he wants.

      Anon, chill, take it easy. Who said he is diagnosed as a psychopath because he is charming? Are you charming? You like the word fuck?

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    4. Themes for SW RegularsFebruary 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM

      Use protection, Scelli <3

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    5. OK, lol. Too soon for this bunny to be caught, though. I'll just enjoy brain-f... for a little while and see if there is an eventual 'what the heck, go for it.'

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    6. Themes for SW RegularsFebruary 21, 2012 at 12:49 PM

      Brain F is the best

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    7. Hes probably a narc

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    8. I could be brain fucked all day and be totally happy Am I sick?

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  25. David, watch Karl Lagerfeld. See how your life would be different if you had a mom like his. He really lucked out.

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  26. hello sw and my favorite one haven

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  27. I don't get how the empath jumped from 5. to 6. ie. 'We can't empirically prove that our subjective reality is "real," and we can't prove that someone else is "real." But we can prove empathy? Why, because we (as a race) experience it? That doesn't make any sense.

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  28. oh jeeze that line of reasoning is the worst kind of wooly hippy thinking.

    if our own experiences AND those of others cannot be known to be real, we can at best conclude such information to be irrelevant

    so if you can't know for sure that you aren't a brain in a jar then all 'knowledge' is irrelevant!?
    cuntfuck retard.
    the world is still an incredibly massive knowledge space of mutual consistency. you may as well say that because you can't know 100% anything that makes every statement equally likely to be true - i.e. you can validate the bullshit you tell yourself about whatever you want (who you are, astrology, homeopathy, other spiritualist shite).

    as for empathy, it is feeling an approximation to how others are feeling. this is bourne out in fMRI experiments that show the same bits of the brain (e.g. bits associated with physical/mental pain) light up in people that are watching someone who is experiencing that pain.

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  29. Any vegan socios? Does that even make sense?

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    1. If a socio is vegan, it would probably be for health reasons.

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    2. What health problem can be solved by going vegan?

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    3. Cholesterol problems and health issues associated with obesity. Lowering cholesterol decreases risk of heart attack and stroke. A socio who makes it to middle age and realizes they may well keep on living may change their diet. Before middle age, they tend to not think that far in the future. Age mellows us all.

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    4. I see. How about a totally well-shaped and healthy socio going vegan? Control issues?

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  30. Res, you're talking about feeling sad when the other is sad. How about feeling happy when the other is happy?

    This article is about feeling envy when others share their happiness.
    http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/27/youre-not-alone-misery-has-more-company-than-you-think/

    Unless I think the person does not deserve to be happy I feel a shared sense of happiness as opposed to envy when I hear the person is happy.

    I have no understanding of how people feel envy when there is no good reason. My empathy totally fails in these situations. Am I having a hard time relating to people who are far from happy in their state? Why would they not learn to get inspired and seek happy when others are happy? Should I feel sociopathic/autistic for not being able to empathize with those who are in dire envy?

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    1. Quoting from that article:
      "...That suggests that your extra efforts at “image management” — whether in person or online — probably worsens feelings of isolation and distress in your friends, by adding to their impression that yours and others’ lives are happier and more successful than theirs.
      Of course, it’s not that your friends want to see you doing badly either. It’s not about schadenfreude. Rather, as the study authors explain, it may be the same phenomenon that makes tragic art so appealing. On the surface, it may not make logical sense to submit ourselves to reading or watching works about other people’s pain. But we don’t enjoy “Romeo and Juliet” because we like to feel superior to the young lovers or happy that they die apart. Instead we identify with their pain — and art gives us a way to witness it and know that we are not alone."

      Ouch... I need more empathy, it looks like. I never understood why people enjoy tragic stories, come to think of it all the ones I know who like opera and other tragic sort are the ones who are full of regrets as far as their own lives go.

      A socio would say 'hard to relate to losers,' but this is hard for an empath who does not perceive herself to be a loser as well. I get attacked when I say these things, but these are my views, and I ain't your extension, so share your views if you don't agree but apply some anger management (regulars would know who needs this statement, I won't name, no more attacks from me ever on thsi site).

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    2. Socios arent the only people who have problems with empathy. We all do, to varying degrees. If not, we wouldnt have religion or moral codes. People would always just "do right".

      As far as sharing problems, when I have opened up to coworkers about some of my issues (I dont tell people I have bpd, I keep that little label to myself) they have said things like "well, you're so well put together. It makes me feel better to know that even you have problems."

      There are four ways of seeing when it comes to people (and people dont always run the same script). You're ok, I'm ok. You're ok, Im not ok. You're not ok, Im ok. And youre not ok and Im not ok. Sometimes people feel better about not being ok when they find out you are not ok, too.

      It's hard for me sometimes, because the crux of bpd is that I feel broken, although I am not. Because of this feeling, I feel like I have to act like everything is fine, even when its not. Its when the pressure from the outside and the inside being disharmonic gets too much is when I do something stupid. Ive allowed myself to start balancing the overly exaggerated Im not ok inside with my equally overblown projection of total competancy. The truth is nothing is true, everything is permissible. By talking about some of my issues (nothing that would freak anyone out too bad, and really, most people have decently high shock thresholds nowadays unless they are uber Christian or old) I allow myself to be seen as human, and people are more apt to open up about their problems. And real connection occurs. Some of the confessions people have told me lately as a result... wow.

      It feels good to feel genuine. Not like I am playacting. Ive spent most of my life doing it. By not repressing my crazy, it doesnt have as much control over me either. And my empathy functions better. Being kinder to myself has made it easier to be kind to others. And as my empathy improves on a general basis, I want to cause less pain because I have allowed myself to feel the pain Ive caused.

      Sorry, yeah, so it does help others when we present all sides of ourselves, because we show a full human, not just a narcissistic projection. We can share in each others tragedies and happiness because we acheive intimacy, sometimes with total strangers, by sharing ourselves and our part in the human drama.

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    3. it's true that all pd's have a varying lack of empathy, narcs and psychopaths having the least. however psychopaths are the only pd without a sense of morality, hence the term "moral insanity" morality simply doesn't afflict them, in any sense.

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    4. i've never liked tragedies, nor poems, perhaps for reasons surrounding lack of empathy... however i do like music and enjoy letting it change my mood: is that emotion, lol?

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    5. Thank you, Sarah. That's exactly what I am talking about. I am tired of getting attacked just because I think differently. People are slighted easily when I am not even talking about them, and sure enough soon after I realize I also am doing exactly the same thing in another circumstance. More than sociopathy I learned so much about bpd here, and it really has been helpful.

      We talked about socio-magnet on SW before. But, I am wondering what types are bpd-magnet. Do you know what types you would want to be associated with? Do you seek any particular type?

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    6. Res, here is a scientific explanation on how to get people to emote when listening to music, fascinating, does not seem to require empathy.

      http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/blogs/the-science-behind-adeles-emotional-music

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    7. that's slightly different... it's like the tonic key of a fugue.
      what i'm talking about it when i listen to angry/sad/beautiful/upbeat etc music and allow that feeling to grow from a seed, continually reinforced by more of the music.

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    8. Atheists who remain moral without god, cannot victimize the religious. They also bought into a delusion. The last stage of atheism is moral nihilism, but I have a feeling people need to be born that way.

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    9. Sceli, well Ive mostly been involved with other disordered folks. Not just lovers, friends as well. I sometimes wonder if there is any other kind! I think people just get to used to their own brand of suffering, they never think that a bit of therapy might help lol.

      My romantic partners have mostly been narc types. Suspected socios or those with aspd traits (which most of my friends have had - Ive always been a bit of a delinquent). My current partner is narc with some aspd and schizoid I think. He loves to push my buttons. Ah intimacy. Its hard to have with intimacy disordered people. All I can do is work on me. One day I will grow bored with romantic games and have a "real" relationship. It will take more therapy, tho.

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    10. my bpd ex is still sniffing around saying i am her drug she can't quit. i haven't seen her in nearly 2 years. i'm toying with the idea of fucking her a bit more but tbh she's so volatile i can't trust her not to torpedo my current life.
      if you want someone to actually be truly caring about you do not continue to see the types you've described. it won't last and they just reflect your own love rather than giving their own.

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    11. Pushes your buttons.


      THREE FULL BLOWN PERSONALITY DISORDERS.

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    12. "my bpd ex is still sniffing around saying i am her drug she can't quit"

      kidnap her.

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    13. No not three personality disorders. I think hes a narc with aspd and schizoid traits. Hes not your average narc. Idk Im not a shrink, I just read a lot. And I have bpd so I am not sure how well I can judge his crazy ass lol. Its fun. For now.

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  31. Sarah, when you say other do you mean other than bpd? Narcs, aspd's, etc., your buttons being pushed (does that feel good to you?). Is there any possibility of wishing to be with people who appear to have a firmer control (appear is the key word here, I suppose)?

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    1. I meant other as in pds. My dad was a narc (I only say was because he went thru therapy and got off booze and has mellowed a lot so hes not so bad). I am attracted to that type.

      Do my buttons being pushed feel good? No, but its a good way to manipulate/control me. Ive become a lot more aware now, though. Aware of my own reactions and what trigger them. Or I wouldnt notice my buttons being pushed. I think my friend is a narc, because I think I understand him, but he could be a socio doing this shit on purpose. I will never know, because I cant get inside his head to see if it it just a wall or if he knows what he is doing. Again, the bpd makes it hard to judge.

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  32. Res, your life torpedoed... What does that mean exactly? Do you feel more of a villain around your ex?

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    1. i mean she might make noise - there are good reasons why i would have to keep any liaison with her on the down low.
      going to bed.

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    2. He means if goes back to her, eventually she will figure out he's treating her like a sex toy and she will tell his gf and anyone else who will listen what a perverted freak he is.

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  33. I am starting to think relative positioning is making us judge others with different pd's. I mean is it possible that one person could appear as a bpd to someone, and an aspd to someone else? I am thinking of Haven because I feel I somewhat know Haven. She says she is a bpd, but to some sort of deeper bpd guy (or someone who is in love with her and she couldn't care less about and act accordingly) she could come across as an aspd. Haven, are you around? Has anyone thought you were aspd before? Do you think you could easily leave someone with that impression?

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  34. Blast from the Past
    Theme Song for Bible Anon

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  35. My considered opinion ME. I like this new format :)

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  36. Im wondering if you guys can help out.i have a dear friend from years ago that idated as a teenager andi remembered from back then she had a very hard time expressing emotions as this was one reason for the break up.also as a teenager she was a cutter.we lost contact for thirty years. And recently began talking again.and i found after 30 yrs shes been an abusive marriage for 18 of those and divoced 3 kids he has custody. And for the last 10 shes still in an abusive relationship.but ive noticed she never talks about anything from years past that was pleasent.or even how her life is going to be in the future.she never apologizes even when she has been verbally abusive to me as a friend.never says or asks how i am or my family is.no happy new years or birthdays or merry xmas's she says shes an empathic but i think thats bs.i know she has serious anger issues and never lets go of it either.she drinks.and seems to be addicted to sex even at 49.her husband is 8 yrs younger.hes cheated on her twice.is addicted to porn.doesnt drink or smoke.she has been unfaithfull twice,and seemed to have been emotionaly attached to me,till i became less sympathetic and more stern about getting help.and now she gotten cold and callous like someone flipped a switch in her head.when ive asked how she feels she can never give a direct answer.shes dismissive.when asked certain ?'s about ife and why she does this.shes also a recluse.thry both have no life.outside of home shes also believes that cooking and intimacy ade wyas of being fogiving and sex is in her words.the way she feels loved and still.shes also a pagan and seems to ridicule my christianity alot because of this.We were making progress on things and her getting help but then another friend from hig school came into the picture and now ive been getting disd and ridiculed and told i suk as a friendbut3. Months ago i was told im her best friend.and it appears she has no remorse or cares that losing a friendship is possibilty.we used to talk on the phone once a week.but even at 49 yrs old the woman says theres consequences to being a bad friend so no phone calls.so my question is basically what kind of a person am i dealing with here.as id like to help but dont know if thats possible.and another odd thing is she cant seem to grasp looking into tomorrow.or know that sbe mite have a problem.she even says im,the one who has issues.which just for the record ive been married to a bipolar woman for 29 yrs and we go to therapy.and after 2 yrs my wifes dr has determined there is nothing wrong with me other then seeing things alittle too black and white.so what do i do her about a friend who is on a self destruct mode.it appears she is tbe reason for her own abuse from her partners.Now i dont believe anyone shud be hit but is it possible she is like this so she gets hit.and im not sure if it matters but ivebenn told by her she likes all kinds of sex.and quite often.not because she needs but because she wants it.and has said if you like the way your room smells that means you love the one your with.but how ks it possible to love someone you say pisses you off and cant trust and keeps kicking your ass.

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    1. Sounds like you need to learn to release your friend to God and focus on your own problems. What made you a care taker?

      Delete
    2. It's not a question of being a caretaker. Or releasing them,ok maybe this would help a bit.In the two years we were talking,I made a comment to her.And she told me the most hurtfull and degrading thing i have ever said was.( Look i cant help somebody who is not willing to help themselves,if you want help im here as a friend,but if you don't then it's a waste of time for us both,everyone has a purpose in someone elses life whether they know it or not.) I dont see how thats degrading or hurtfull.And i ask you how do you walk away from someone who is crying out for help but yet wont take the first step to help themselves,or cant for that matter.one subject that kept coming up is the fact that everyone abandoned her.Im not a quitter,but im not someones savoir either.IM just looking for input or advice on what im dealing with and am not sure what to make of it.she says she is an empath but i dont see that as possible,because wouldnt an empath feel for everyone and not just the person tbere sleeping with.and even him she doesnt seem to care about.

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    3. She sounds a lot like I used to be when I was in major depression. Let me see if I can give you something useful advice in deal with it.

      She is a car that has almost completely run out of gas. The gas is energy. Depression is having no energy.

      "But I keep filling her tank up with gas!" you say. Unfortunately for you, her engine nearly kaput. Fuel leaks everywhere, the sparkplugs are bad, the throttle is loose, and despite all that gas your pouring into the tank, she's lucky if she can get a mile further down the road.

      All of these things are fixable, and but you're going to have to completely rebuild the car, and since you have a budget, (in your case, the amount of time you can stand to hang around her) it's going to take awhile.

      Here's how to use the car analogy to help you stay sane while dealing with someone who is, by definition, a drag. Say that she has a habit of not looking you (or anyone) in the eye. She stares at her nails, she stares at her feet, she stares out the window, but her eyes are unfocused and you know she's not actually staring at anything. This is a big habit for depressives, because by not looking at anything we don't have to care about anything outside ourselves, and therefore we can protect ourselves from any further emotional pain. It's our primary defense mechanism. So how to fix this? In car terms, the headlights are out, which is maybe why the car looks like it's been inadvertently offroading a lot. The only thing to do is to replace them. Imagining your friend as an inanimate object may seem inconsiderate, but empaths get much less worked up over inanimate objects than they do with people, so it's much easier to not take what she does personally, which is essential if you're going to be dealing with a depressed person much of the time.

      So now that you have a mental defense in the form of an analogy, how exactly do you go about repairing your friend? You basically train her like a dog into certain habits. Punishment won't work, because I guarantee you nothing you can do to her is worse than what she's already doing to herself. So the two big tools in your repair kit are going to be distraction and reward. When you notice her starting to get that introspective "I'm going to beat myself up for no good reason" look, distract her. Research on the internet for things that are excellent distractions. If she's distracted, she is focusing outside herself and can't slip into full-on "I hate myself" mode. The second is reward. Whenever she does something- no matter how small- that is in the direction on forming a habit to combat her own depression, reward her. It doesn't have to be anything fancy- a smile or a sincere complement will do. With these two tools, you can slowly warp her worldview into a more positive tint.

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    4. About that 'humiliating and degrading' thing you said. You said "I can't help someone who is not willing to help themselves." What she heard was, "You're such a worthless piece of shit even close friends don't want to waste their time hanging out with you, you stupid bitch, you'll never amount to anything if you can't even do something as mind-numbingly simple as fix your own problems etc. etc. etc." This is the sort of thing she tells herself every waking moment of the day, and when someone else says something that can be twisted to support that inner dialog, it has a HUGE impact on the psych. She is primed to believe she is not worth helping. The reason she found it humilating and degrading is that she has to fight like a demon to not accept that she is completely worthless, because if she truly accepted that, all of the gas would run out of her tank- all of her energy would be drained- and she would be dead. So what did she do? She got pissed at you. Instead of her being a worthless human being, you are now the enemy, the jerk, the asshole who picks on women, and she can focus all of her energy on being pissed at you, which isn't very productive but may very well have kept her alive. Anger is a very powerful emotion. Anger can keep us fighting long after other emotions are exhausted. So her being pissed at you is her way of fighting the idea that she's worthless.

      Totally not your fault. Not her fault either. Just one of the more fun aspects of being depressed.

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    5. Michael Martin PlunkettApril 4, 2012 at 7:41 AM

      Ya make their anger outward they'll kill ya the price ya pay someone's gotta die it won't be them they're fightin fer their life just say no

      Delete
  37. Sorry about the typo's guys im dealing with an ipad with a cracked screen lol.

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  38. doesn't this article make the assumption that sociopaths see life as meaningless? I think this an interesting point seen as sociopaths are meant to be rational. because the rational choice in this instance would be to kill yourself. No hatred intended, I have nothing personally against the sociopath. i just think that sociopaths don't see life as meaningless. maybe emtionally meaningless, but that is strething it. it wouldn't effect them because they never had the emotional meaning in the first place.

    that leads to this article claiming that meaning only resides in emotion.

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  39. That vision was too faulty.

    Truth is empaths do have a powerful sense of awareness concerning both of reality's objective and subjective natures, which they control almost at will.

    This is because sociopaths do lean towards this perceived subjectivity of what is real, which empaths follow if necessary, while some types -Aspies, some empaths or even some socipaths at some point- have a very powerful objective view, and empaths will follow it as needed as well, if only to counteract sociopathic excesses or choose to distort reality to counteract intrusive logic instead.

    Yes, empaths can both choose between either a virtual subversion of reality or absolute logic at any time, and through their evolution they have developed empathy to establish firm bonds with one another. That is, empathy is a mechanism for bonding, not a determinant of perception.

    Truth is, empaths do not believe in a sociopathic view of reality, which they only heed within social contexts (for example, when they constantly fake a sociopathic attitude and act this way in a double-standard manner), and nor are they willing to use a purer, permanently logical point of view granted its social inconvenience.

    ReplyDelete

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