Monday, November 9, 2009

Effectively parenting a sociopath (part II)

A reader responds:
I was really glad to get your response, and thank you very much for your advice.

I love my daughter and very much admire her veiwpoint, it must be great to be able to dismiss anyone that you don't like or who doesn't agree with you. She is very bright, extremely careful to keep herself safe, yet very brave. It's been a conundrum to me how she could not care for, or even like, many of her friends, yet be the most popular child in her class. She is flying at school, follows the rules, collects the rewards for good behaviour, informs the teacher of any unfairness and I think is running rings round them without them knowing. Who cares though as she's achieving highly, the teaching staff like her and she's never in trouble. Yet she can be very sensitive and has been devastated when I have reacted harshly to her actions. This confuses me as she has been upset that I have rejected her, which I took to be empathy at upsetting me, but is more likely a reaction against rejection. Why be so upset at rejection if you don't really care about the people doing the rejection? I take your point about trust on board and have already found myself being specific about the consequences for breaking boundaries, as literal she understands, but "making me cross" doesn't affect her at all.

I suppose the qualities that attracted me to her Dad are present in her as well. She's still quite young now so not diagnosable I expect, as many children lack empathy and are self centered at that age. I shall watch as she grows up, but I already know she is her father, at least now I can hopefully encourage the favorable qualities and try instill the rules of relationships like the rules of the road. It's confusing to me how a Sociopath can choose to drive within the speed limit as otherwise they would lose their licence, yet chooses to cheat on their partner even though they might get caught and get dumped. I suppose it's the same really as he would speed if he knew he wouldl get away with it and there are no speed camera's in his bedroom to catch him out!!!

Anyway, thank you again for being so open and working so hard to prevent the persecution of a "different" way of looking at life. Doesn't mean I'd ever try and live with a Sociopath again though, it'd be like keeping a tiger in a rabbit hutch.

133 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  2. That is the most ignorant comment I've seen. She's obviously come to this conclusion after much consideration. Nobody labels their daughter a sociopath just because she has a grudge on her ex husband. The fact that she's come here and tried to understand sociopaths in an effort to understand her daughter and be a good parent is more than what some might do. As I said before, the above comment could have only been made by an ignoramus who clearly fails to see the entire point of this blog.

    ReplyDelete
  3. hahahaha!and that didn't sound ignorant or judgmental?

    ReplyDelete
  4. I could be wrong, but the above wasn’t from the Sarah that’s been regularly commenting here for the last few months. It sounds more like something Peter Pan/Thunderball/Anonymous would say/do.

    ReplyDelete
  5. you are wrong, it's sarah

    ReplyDelete
  6. Well since Anonymous said it, it MUST be true.

    What would the internet be like without troll-like behavior? If only I could find out…

    ReplyDelete
  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I guessed it wasn’t from Sarah only because she hasn’t been known to leave maudlin, overwrought comments like the one above. Another reason I guessed the comment wasn’t from Sarah was the complete absence of biting sarcasm in it. There wasn’t a trace of irony, which is why I guessed PP/TB/Anon. Of course, there’s always a first time for everything, but I’m going to go with my original guess for now. If I’m right, someone was just yanking your chain, which is almost always the troll’s proximate objective.

    And even if it really was from Sarah, frankly who gives a damn? No offense to Sarah, but your opinion is just that, yours.

    ReplyDelete
  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Yup. Why not? I don't write in movie-speak enough.

    ReplyDelete
  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Sarah was thinking about her childhood. This is why you detected something different.

    ReplyDelete
  14. That's not me. He murdered me and started using my name!

    ReplyDelete
  15. Maybe Im the only one on here who doesnt know this but what is a troll in this context??

    Apart from that Im wondering about the sense of justice sociopaths supposedly have, according to some on this site. My view is sociopaths like the world to act according to rules so that they can do whatever they want following their own logic.

    Thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  16. There are whole books on raising kids who show certain traits that are labelled sociopathic.
    Liane Leedom (who also writes at lovefraud) has a book for parenting kids who display one or more of a triad of traits:
    * Lack of Empathy/Inability to love (give with out expecting in return)
    * Poor Impulse Control/Strong drive for social dominance
    * Lack of Conscience/Impaired moral reasoning

    I thought the page about social dominance (dominated by a dominant wolf) was especially interesting
    http://www.parentingtheatriskchild.com/social%20dominance.html

    "At risk children often try to usurp parental authority. The secret to staying in charge without being aggressive is to be consistent with limits and to be a teacher"

    This is similar to M.E.'s advice. Has he read these books, or is he going with his gut instincts?

    -lurker

    ReplyDelete
  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Disney why do you come on here asking dumb questions?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Jesus Daft you pour so much insecurity out into your words I'm surprised you didn't go back and delete your comment altogether (not to late by the way).

    ReplyDelete
  20. Daft

    I agree with Sarah; your take on the mother's story is just reactive. The mother sounds like she has an 'accepting' stance on the situation and clearly looks at the situation logically, meaning accepting what is and making the best of the situation given her own constitution aswell as her daughters. She is no fool, thus she recognizes some patterns, so what.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Cyclone

    I dont know, why are you?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Disney, to your question about the sense of justice, or lack thereof, my own early frustration stemmed from this idea that I was somehow supposed to care about the rules as others claimed to, even though their actions belied their supposed devotion to morality. Why lecture me, why harangue me because I’m not bothering to hide my complete lack of concern for this, that and the other, when you yourself (not you literally, btw) only follow the rules when it isn’t terribly inconvenient? (Yeah, I wasn’t always careful. I let my disdain for morality show sometimes growing up and I was lectured about it a few times by so called caring adults. ) Then there was the lack of consistency found in the rules themselves that annoyed me. The latter had more to do with aesthetics than anything else though. It’s like, I don’t know, eating your least favorite food or being forced to listen to elevator music while you’re taking a dump. It's not pleasant. I find logically contradictory systems of thought to be personally offensive, like the smell of hot pig being transported by truck on the highway. I almost think that’s what it boils down to for me period: I find obvious, blatant, in your face contradiction and unapologetic irrationality to be... ‘aesthetically challenged’.

    ReplyDelete
  23. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Daniel Birdick,
    That's an interesting comment you make about rule-following and fairness. Many people have an idea about the "spirit of the law", which they follow, even if they don't follow the letter of the law. The idea is that the "letter of the law" is not perfect, and that the "spirit of the law" is better. Assuming that "everyone"'s "moral compass" points in the same direction, of course.

    If your moral complass is different from "everyone" else's, and/or you have a "complete disdain for their morality", it would be pretty hard for you to "get" any respect they might (or might not) have for the letter or spirit of the law. And they might have a hard time believing you don't get it, since the boundaries might be "obvious" to them.

    ReplyDelete
  25. How can I not see the insecurity? How can anyone not see it?

    ReplyDelete
  26. You come on here Disney and ask retarded questions to which you don't want to hear the answers to. The only reason why you ask them is to get attention. Attention these fools are only too willing to give if it has to do with talking about themselves, or their percieved selves.

    ReplyDelete
  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  29. First of all lurker, I thought I liberally used “quotation marks”. You've got me beat.

    Secondly, you’re right. Without the emotional attachment to rules and the kind of empathy that binds action, all that is left for me is an appraisal of the rules and the behavior of those who say they are devoted to them. (I’m assuming that your ‘spirit of the law’ reference is analogous to my ‘emotional attachment to rules’.) This dovetails nicely with ME’s point about the importance of the parent of someone who is conscience deficient being consistent in setting and following their own rules. Who knows? Maybe I’d appreciate rules more if I’d been exposed to people who followed rules consistently, wisely, and intelligently at the right time in my own development. Too late now though.

    Thirdly, your ‘spirit of the law’ is as meaningless as saying sorry. Damage done cannot be undone with mere words. Remorse doesn’t right wrongs. Guilt has never turned back the hands of time. Like I’ve said, without the emotional attachment to morality that evolution has equipped most brains with, I’m left with the seeing rules and behavior. And what I see are people who will say and do whatever it is they think they need to advance their agendas. Normals call that a whole host of things. They justify their actions to themselves, they wrestle with their guilt, they try to make amends and so on. That’s all well and good, but ultimately, it’s futile. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t doubt that the 'spirit of the law' exists. Conscience, guilt, remorse, empathy, affection, are all very real for most people. It’s just that these vaunted emotions don’t prevent wars or feed starving children in Africa or preserve the environment. Ok, I know they stop some people from doing things they'd otherwise do in a heartbeat, but still.

    ReplyDelete
  30. DAFT-
    Your consistent pleas for validation makes you seem insecure..or maybe just clueless..
    Which one is it?

    ReplyDelete
  31. Daniel,
    Again, it is as though we live in two different worlds. You may be right that this is a matter of worldview formed in childhood.

    I am fully aware that bad things happen in the world. I attribute that to "bad" people, a minority who are responsible for the majority of "bad stuff". Worldview.

    As for everyday human pettiness and negligence -- no human satisfies a standard of perfection. Monotheists generally feel that only God is capable of the perfection most people strive for.

    Laws, of course, are made by people. People who think there ought to be a law. They have some idea of how things ought to be (the spirit of the law) and craft the letter of the law to express that spirit. Both are imperfect, because they are conceived of and written by imperfect people. And many people feel they would be uneccesary if people would "only do what everyone already knows is right".

    Different worldviews. Different views on the law. Different views on rulebreaking.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  32. We do indeed live in different worlds. Our differing view on humanity predicts that our experience of life will be sharply divergent.

    I subscribe to the belief that man’s behavior in general is motivated by a small number of drives: acquiring, bonding (which has implications for reproduction and morality), learning and defending. Two additional drives that are more primal than those are fear and selfishness. I see everything that humans do being touched in some way, shape or form, by fear and selfishness.

    Perfection is a myth, a belief man subscribes to, ironically enough, to excuse their actions to themselves. (“Sure I *fill in the blank terrible thing.* I feel real bad about it, but then again, nobody’s perfect.”) Also, morality is a central part of most people’s self image. This is a result of their evolutionary heritage. They have to justify all of their actions to themselves to maintain their identity’s cohesion or integrity. They’ll contort themselves into all sorts of intellectual and emotional pretzels to do so, self deception being one of the most used tools and end result. Since you bring it up, religion is an excellent example of this. And btw, don’t even get me started on monotheists. ;)

    All of that colors my views of man and his rules and what it really means to break them. How could it be so awful for me to break rules that only exist in the minds of unquestioning men and women to begin with?

    ReplyDelete
  33. I was speaking of the hypocrisy of sociopaths. Say they expect a certain type of behavior from others that they dont expect of themselves (regardless of the fact they dont trust the world and morality is a figment of the imagination, they sure seem to get upset over a lot). I get it, it just seems like the commentators on this post dont see it this way? I would like to read your views.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Disney,

    The annoying part for me is that normals expect a certain type of behavior from me that they don’t truly expect from themselves. They don’t see this because they are blind to themselves. I have to navigate thru their unconscious and neverending bullshit to survive. Sometimes that’s just plain irritating. Where’s the hypocrisy in that?

    ReplyDelete
  35. DB wrote "All of that colors my views of man and his rules and what it really means to break them. How could it be so awful for me to break rules that only exist in the minds of unquestioning men and women to begin with?"

    DB has your willingness to break rules been of any material success to you? Are you wealthy and powerful? I have a theory, that in fact rule breaking isn't much advantage over the longer term.

    ReplyDelete
  36. DB wrote "All of that colors my views of man and his rules and what it really means to break them. How could it be so awful for me to break rules that only exist in the minds of unquestioning men and women to begin with?"

    DB has your willingness to break rules been of any material success to you? Are you wealthy and powerful? I have a theory, that in fact rule breaking isn't much advantage over the longer term.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Has your rule keeping lead you to fabulous wealth and power ‘anon’ (wink-wink)? To answer your question, no I am not wealthy and powerful. I haven’t made the effort to be, lawfully or otherwise. Then again, there are more ways to define abundance than money and power can be had at multiple levels.

    I was discussing my own attitudes about rule keeping/breaking, not whether breaking the rules is the universal key to material success or not. Having said that and to repeat what I told Tink once, my belief now is that it is preferable for each of us to be what we are. Trying to be someone else is not beneficial. To that end, it is not advantageous for me to pretend to care about rules and morality internally. It’s all well and good to lie to people about such things, but never to yourself. And as far as what I do, well let’s just say I’m not a stranger to felony and if I felt it was to my advantage, I’d do so again. I pursue strategies that make the most sense and are a reflection of who/what I am, legal or otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Social anti-socials. Yeah. Right.

    You people are so deluded.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Daniel Birdick,
    Yes, the rule-respecters and rule-disdainers both "break" rules. Generally, I think they do it in different ways, which is why I put the parentheses on the word break.

    Those who respect internalized shared morality and shared rules feel this strengthens the ability of a group to work together in a more-or-less agreed-upon way. There are some game-theory studies that this has benefits for societies and, generally, for individuals in the long term. So more-or-less following the rules seems more-or-less fair to the rule-respectors.

    An indidual who has no respect for societies rules, who acts with complete disregard for the rules themselves, is then seen by the rule-respecters as not behaving fairly. They can understand other rule-respecters who sometimes don't follow the spirit of the law to its highest standard, and create social and legal consequences in an attempt to enforce boundries and protect the society.

    But they have a hard time understanding people who will "pursue strategies" that they percieve to be to their own advantage, untempered by regard for the rules of society or the boundries of others.

    I have met many rule-respecters who admire the libertarian nature of Ayn Rand "objectivism" and her concept of "enlightened self-interest", though the concept of "enlightened" may be a little fuzzy. Those same rule-respecters don't admire self-interest "unenlightened" by some golden-rule-like concept of fairness.

    This is why those with morality, ethics, respect for rules, a sense of love or altruism or even empathy or respect for other members of society have such difficulty accepting to sociopathic point of view. It seems awfully unfair and damaging to society.

    On the other hand, the sociopathic point of view doesn't seem to get this at all. I cannot tell if it places no value on a stable society or if it sees that strength as infinite or unchangeable.

    That said, it is still an interesting question -- is either strategy (rule respect or rule disdain) more likely to help individuals achieve their personal goals? In some cases, I think this depends on what the individuals' goals are.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  40. DB

    You said:

    "The annoying part for me is that normals expect a certain type of behavior from me that they don’t truly expect from themselves"

    Well I agree with you. That is annoying. But not just to you, I mean who wouldnt be annoyed at people laying unto others rules that they dont feel apply to themselves. That surely is meant with the term hypocrisy. What Im talking about is when people need to lie to get whatever they want even if it is from a person who is NOT a hypocrite. What would your stance be on this?

    Abundance other than power and money...YES, but not likely a sociopathic viewpoint? now I dont care to label but this makes me curious.You could be a highly developed sociopath or just a sociopath with all talk no action which is quite typical. Just curious. Maybe you have grown so wise over time, you must be over 45..?

    ReplyDelete
  41. But, back to the topic of at-risk kids who might or might not grow up to display significant sociopathic behaviors.

    Has anyone read Liane Leedon's thoughts on the "inner triangle" of traits she says can predict which children will be "normal" and which will eventially wind up with addictions or get labeled APSD, or ADHD.
    http://www.parentingtheatriskchild.com/Inner%20Triangle.html

    I was especially intrigued by her assertion that, to teach children "good behavior", parents must model "loving teacher" behavior, not punish with threats, spanking, and yelling to achieve social dominance through aggression. This page is illustrated by a snarling dominant wolf. http://www.parentingtheatriskchild.com/social%20dominance.html

    Is this advice any more or less useful in parenting "at-risk" or "not-at-risk" children?

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  42. Thanks for sharing your point of view lurker. You’ve done so in a clear and intelligent manner. I always appreciate good conversation on interesting subjects. We’re coming from opposing viewpoints obviously, but it’s nice to just hear the other side out, especially when no one is trying to prove the other person wrong.

    I get what you’re saying about a stable society as well. I’ve freely admitted in previous comments that it is an evolutionarily valid strategy to have most human brains programmed for some kind of morality. That’s on a theoretical level. When I switch gears and think about myself, well I can only be me, can’t I? And the truth is I just don’t care about society in and of itself. Society is useful obviously, but I’m not going to pretend to feel something I don’t as a result. I couldn’t even if I tried. If my attitude and any subsequent actions that come from it seem “unfair and damaging” to social interests… well… so what? We’re all pursuing our own interests the best way we know how. Not being argumentative here, just sharing a perspective.

    My own answer to your last question is the same one I gave earlier, which I think is similar to the one you’ve just given. It all depends on the individual. The individual’s goals are a reflection of him/herself. What those goals are and how he/she chooses to pursue them are contingent on who/what that person is. So in my mind, there is no one strategy that fits all. In other words, no I don’t think it’s feasible to imply that one strategy verses another is more likely to advance any random person to their goals. The rule respect versus rule disdain choice is yet another false dichotomy. In my view, it makes sense for me to let the situation I’m facing help me determine how I’ll respond rather than decide before hand that I’ll always obey the rules or always disobey them. To make decisions like that would mean I am committed to some kind of pro-social or anti-social ideology. I am the exact opposite of ideologically committed.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Disney said, “What Im talking about is when people need to lie to get whatever they want even if it is from a person who is NOT a hypocrite. What would your stance be on this?”

    No, there isn’t a soul in my offline world that I wouldn’t lie to if it served a purpose. That includes my most sincere friends and the most loyal members of my family. I can’t think of one person I’d refuse to lie to. In fact, I can’t think of one person in my life that I haven’t lied to at least once. Then again, can’t everyone say that? Haven’t we all lied to most of the people we know at least once?

    “Abundance other than power and money...YES, but not likely a sociopathic viewpoint? now I dont care to label but this makes me curious.You could be a highly developed sociopath or just a sociopath with all talk no action which is quite typical. Just curious. Maybe you have grown so wise over time, you must be over 45..?”

    Or I could be just me.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I went to both links lurker and they were interesting. The problem is that there appears to be growing evidence that parenting doesn’t determine personality traits. At most, parenting may have some say in how those traits are manifested, not whether a child has those traits or not. In other words, a person without a conscience is more likely to resort to violent strategies later if he is raised in a violent home or neighborhood. That same person may resort to say white collar crime as a viable strategy to get what he wants if raised in a stable, loving and privileged environment. Either way though, the kid is still conscienceless because that’s the hand nature dealt him. (That was a gross generalization of course, but I used it to illustrate my point about the predominance of genetic inheritance and nothing more.) Also, in terms of environment, the evidence also suggests parenting may not be the pivotal factor when it comes to how a child’s personality traits and intelligence manifest. It looks like Leedon is giving too much credence to the ability of parents to shape traits.

    The bottom line is, a person born with this suite of personality traits is more likely to participate in one kind of anti-social activity or another regardless of how he is raised. The question is, when and what kind.

    ReplyDelete
  45. DB

    you emphasize so much on being and accepting whatever you are. would you care at all to be seen once in your life exactly as that person you are (not having to lie about it)? and yes i realize its a total empath question.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Daniel Birdick,
    Sometimes, I think we are working from different dictionaries.

    Many "normals" may think you perceive a blind spot in how they deal with morality, rulebreaking, and remorse because you are blind to something else going on there. I'm not sure how to put this in words that might mean the same to both of us!

    Here's a part of it: you express a blindness to the fact that, by harming the society you depend upon, you are harming your own interests. But that's only tangent to what I'd like to get at, but cannot figure out how to communicate. I'm not sure we have the words in common to express that communication.

    Your comments on child-rearing are interesting, too. Leedom doesn't suggest that parenting determines personality traits. She is onto the "some say in how these traits are manifested". M.E, a self-proclaimed sociopath, has an abiding interest in Angels, Demons, ethics, and moral compasses. Very young "normal" children, on the other hand, have yet to develop the conscience that will be with them throughout life. It is generally understood that "poor parenting" will result in "normal" children growing up with less-developed consciences (implying, of course, that a highly-developed conscience is a good thing, and that good parenting promotes it).

    It is unlikely that we will ever know what the limits are for developing affection, conscience, and moral reasoning in the "at-risk" children. Because, of course, even if it were possible to design rigorously controlled child-rearing studies, these studies would violate ethics to a degree that would be hideous to those who respect ethics.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  47. Disney:

    That's hard to answer because it's difficult to really say what I would do if I found myself in an alien environment. I’d have to not only live in a different world, among a different type of humanity, I’d have to be different myself. But since I am what I am and humanity is what it is, then no I wouldn’t. Unless of course, being 100% honest served a purpose that was both realistic and sensible…

    And yeah, that is so an empath question. :)

    ReplyDelete
  48. Disney,

    Is that a total empath question? I'm actually not sure what you were asking. Maybe I'm not a total empath.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  49. We are working from different dictionaries! lol That’s kind of what ME’s new post is referring to tangentially, isn’t it?

    And I concede the blind spot thing as well. I’m guessing my blind spot here is the emotional connection. I don’t feel the things normals feel in relation to morality. I imagine that difference is like night and day. Of course emotions don’t prove or disprove facts, but they can easily distort one’s view of said facts if one isn’t careful.

    There is a lack of specificity in your statement about me harming myself when I harm society. What does that mean really? When I break the speed limit for instance, I do indeed run the increased risk of having a disastrous car accident. Is that what you mean? I do speed all the time btw. So far, so good, knock on wood. Um, what else? I’ve stolen for instance. I used to steal from one of my former employers quite often as a matter of fact. It harmed them I suppose, but not me. I had extra money all the time. Naturally I was never caught and the company survived. I did a few other things that others might have found harmful and were so certainly illegal. There were investigations and so on, there were sometimes tears and there were certainly resources wasted on trying to uncover the so called truth. But in every case I got what I wanted, so how was I personally harmed? Making the larger case about how benefitting society might ultimately benefit me… well that isn’t realistic in my view. My becoming a strictly law abiding citizen who vowed to not only break any more laws ever again but to live in an ethically responsible way from now on would in no way protect me from the plenty of others who would not hesitate to take advantage of my newfound moral rectitude. I’m not talking about psychopaths either. I’m talking about normals who do what they must to get what they want, justifying their actions to themselves all along the way. I think one of the fundamental issues that make it seem as if we live on two different planets is how we view our fellow man. Tell me lurker, how do you see people in general and why?

    “It is generally understood that "poor parenting" will result in "normal" children growing up with less-developed consciences (implying, of course, that a highly-developed conscience is a good thing, and that good parenting promotes it).”

    Is it? I’m not so sure about that. This statement could be right, but it sounds like it still gives more power to parental styles than is warranted by the evidence. And those implications… yeah, that’s loaded with unchallenged assumptions, the kind that needlessly blinds people. But that’s another story…

    ReplyDelete
  50. You might diagnose me as being hampered by a golden rule. So here's a strange question, in that it might seem irrelevant.

    Suppose you had started up and were owning/operating a successful business. One day you discovered some inconsistancies in the books, but you couldn't figure out who was getting the "extra money". What would you do? Would there be investigations? Would you waste resources trying to uncover the so-called truth? Would you suppose you had been harmed? Would you wish you could figure out how to employe strictly law-abiding citizens?

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  51. Sometimes I feel like I can relate to sociopathy, because I have a feeling that it is somehow comparable to my situation and I confuse it. I don't know the English word but being so highly intelligent that only a small percentage has around the same IQ. I feel I sometimes have to almost lie, but its more constantly thinking about how to phrase things to be able to make a connection to the person in front of you who might be 3 steps behind, so then you learn to dumb things down, or just to make complex thoughts simple in order to make sure you can have a dialogue but then you end up being bored with the dialogue and even frustrated with the person you were attempting to communicate with in the first place. All of this I never show one bit. I have plenty of friends, I am very 'charming' and networking is easy and so forth, but it BORES me. Now this might sound familiar to sociopaths, but I think ( not sure) the difference lies in the fact that I actually desire to connect to other in realness as 'me'; whatever that is, but to put it simple, most people are just about retarded from my view ( when you have average intelligence and you talk to someone who has downsyndrom, okay thats a bit crazy, but it could be compared quotient wise). Sociopaths are generally nice to communicate with when they are smart ( and only then) because they have a severely different outlook on the world around them, which is stimulating for an intelligent person. But thats about it.

    After all this talk about IQ, I should say that English is not my first lg.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Daniel Birdick said...
    "We are working from different dictionaries!"

    I think we are working from different dictionaries, which is the main reason there is so much argumentative comments that get tossed around. We’ve all come from or buy into different versions or ideals about the meaning of a sociopath and what it takes to be one—how what makes someone sociopathic doesn’t always do the same to another person. The grey areas surrounding individual psychological blueprints and their structure is a one source of why this blog even exists, mainstream has many believing that if you’re a sociopath you must be a monster or whatever. But really the fault isn’t in the pathology, it’s in the different views of it, the various “dictionaries” or manuals that people use. I could be way off on this of course, but that would in a way, prove the point.

    ReplyDelete
  53. DB said "To answer your question, no I am not wealthy and powerful. I haven’t made the effort to be, lawfully or otherwise."

    DB thank you for your honest reply. I was wondering if as a sociopath you'd tell a fib, but you didn't and that reminds me you said before that you aren't a sociopath, only high up on that spectrum of personality traits. u r a machieveli whatever that is? anyway i am just writing on the wall, i don't even exist unless you are reading me.
    so you are into felony, does this mean you are a bank robber or something? or maybe a retired jewel thief? what was your central skill db in your felonies, was it climbing walls, or maybe it was fooling people? have you been to prison?

    ReplyDelete
  54. DB said "To answer your question, no I am not wealthy and powerful. I haven’t made the effort to be, lawfully or otherwise."

    DB thank you for your honest reply. I was wondering if as a sociopath you'd tell a fib, but you didn't and that reminds me you said before that you aren't a sociopath, only high up on that spectrum of personality traits. u r a machieveli whatever that is? anyway i am just writing on the wall, i don't even exist unless you are reading me.
    so you are into felony, does this mean you are a bank robber or something? or maybe a retired jewel thief? what was your central skill db in your felonies, was it climbing walls, or maybe it was fooling people? have you been to prison?

    ReplyDelete
  55. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Claims of extra-high IQ could get labeled as "elevated self-appraisal".

    --lurker

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog -- Snoopy.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Lurker

    Your reaction is the exact reason I dont go about in real life telling this about myself. Seriously, it would be the best way to alienate people ( although maybe Im different from a sociopath in this respect too I realize, Im sure many sociopaths lie about their IQ when its convenient to them they play dumb or smart, right?) . Only my boyfriends knew and one of my employers ( assessment) and ofcourse my parents and they instructed me at a young age to not tell my siblings. There you go. Can we now just stick to the content.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Lurker:

    Of course I’d try to find out who was stealing from me! lol See, it wouldn’t be about abstract rules then; it’d be about me. I think you’re trying to get me to make the connection between what I’d want for myself and that others might want the same thing. In other words, you’re trying to see if I can empathize. Which, btw, I can. I can imagine myself in someone else’s shoes. It’s just that this imaginative effort doesn’t have any effect on my decision making or my actions. That’s what I meant by “binding empathy”. I know. The term is clumsy, but it was the best I could come up with. I can empathize. It just doesn’t bind or limit my actions and there is no emotional content to said empathy.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Disney:

    A bit of the mystery has been solved. If you think you have a normal conscience, then your personality may not be part of this neck of the woods as I like to put it. Also, if you’re telling the truth about your intelligence, then intellectual giftedness itself can so “skew” your view of the world that for all practical purposes, you feel as alien as any would be sociopath. Alienation may be the price you pay for being a-neurotypical. I say may because I don’t know in your case.

    It is curious though. You pretend as much as any so called sociopath, only you do it for different reasons. I guess you yearn for things to be different. That’s where we differ. I don’t. Reality is what it is as far as I’m concerned. I imagine it may be very painful for you to want something you may never be able to have.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Daniel Birdick,
    I thought my question was probably irrelevant. It IS all about you. No symmetry. No golden rule. Fascinating.

    I'm not so sure imagining yourself in another person's shoes is empathy. I thought empathy was the situation where one person experiences the emotions the other person is displaying just by observing the other person.

    Just as it is possible to calm one's first-hand emotions before making a decision, it would be possible to calm the empathy-induced emotions before making a decision.

    Disney,
    It's the internet. I have no way of knowing whether your claims are inflated or actual, so it would be illogical for me to label you. You seem sensitive about this, and eager to change the subject. I can understand that. Ever been to a MENSA meeting?

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  61. Disney,
    But actually, my comment was more directed at Daft, who has claimed to have a sociopathic personality. I'm not sure he has claimed to have "elevated self appraisal", though.

    -- lurker

    ReplyDelete
  62. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  63. You’re welcome Anon. Ultimately I am what I am. I know for certain that I have a suite of personality traits that have been stereotypically associated with labels like sociopath and psychopath. I also know that in some ways I do not fit into those stereotypes. For instance, if one stereotype is that sociopaths lie like rugs for no apparent reason, then no, I’m not a sociopath. Why would I lie for no reason? Why would I lie on this blog? For what? To what end? What would I have to gain by lying to you about my non-existent fabulous wealth? I’m being literal. What would I have to gain by lying to you about something like that? I suppose to amuse myself, but I don’t find lying to anonymous people amusing, so I don’t. I will say that I have increased my lying quotient in recent days, but it’s been for a very specific purpose. And ok fine, it has been amusing. But otherwise, no pathological lying here. Labels are helpful, but only up to a certain point. If I’m not in an institutional setting or a prison, going around calling myself a sociopath is pointless in my view. The traits are what matter, not the label.

    And no, I didn’t say I was into felonies, merely that I have committed a few. I was going to be a bit more specific without getting carried away, but my instincts tell me not to, so I won’t. In any event, these deeds were done over 5 years ago so I can’t be prosecuted now. I was very careful and no one died or was seriously injured. I’ve never spent a day in jail and never intend to.

    ReplyDelete
  64. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  65. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  66. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Daft,

    I’ve noticed in my perusal of various blogs/forums/etc that are ostensibly for sociopaths that there is a pattern to the kinds of comments left. Invariably, there’s always a troll, which is true for all forums, right? The troll is there to tell everyone commenting that they are full of shit. It doesn’t matter what the subject is. The troll is certain the commenters are full of shit. In the case of the sociopath forum, the full of shit accusation takes the form of “you people aren’t sociopaths, you’re all full of shit”. That’s a big portion of it. Another portion is what you mention, the stereotypes. Everyone seems to have one when it comes to the sociopath label, usually based on their own personal experience. Sociopaths don’t write blogs, they don’t read blogs, they don’t leave comments on blogs, they don’t introspect, they don’t have insight, they have too much insight, they don’t have feelings, they don’t care about their pets, they have no polish, they have too much polish, they’re too lazy, they’re preternaturally psychic, they hate their mothers, they’re really busy eating babies, they all have corpses rotting away in their basement, they’re psychopaths trashy cousins, they’re pathetic, they’re wonderful, everyone wants to be one, no one wants to be one, they’re atheist, they’re theist, they don’t have souls, they’re vampires, their favorite meal is kidney, fava beans and Chianti… You get the gist.

    To a certain degree the naysayers are right to be skeptical though. My response to that is if you’re not in prison or on a psychiatrist’s couch, who gives a damn what the so called diagnosis really is? As ME said, this is junk science anyway. As long as you’re not taking it seriously, who cares really?

    ReplyDelete
  68. As a matter of fact Lurker, I have. Now that I remember that I also remember I felt alien there as I felt socially way more adept is the word? so I guess maybe its not in the IQ after all. And btw Im not making any claims, who cares, I wouldnt bring it up if it wasnt on my mind and I dont see any other purpose, since this is actually only a blog and just that.

    And DB what would I want and never be able to get? There are still plenty intelligent people out there, so 'never' is weird, just not all the time like most normal people. It sounds more like something one would say to a sociopath. Where was it said that their loneliness was painful?

    ReplyDelete
  69. lurker:

    I’m guessing that empathy is something that happens automatically with other people. I don’t know. Like this Fort Hood thing. Did you feel anything like empathy?

    I have to make emotions that approximate empathy happen on purpose. It’s like an mental exercise I learned years ago in acting class, where you “play the verb”. I was able to put myself in a variety of emotional states when I did that. Otherwise, not so much. And I don’t think I’ve ever had to calm empathic emotions prior to making a decision.

    You never told me your view on human nature, btw. I’m a curious soul.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Notice Disney that in my last comment to you I used equivocal language like may, guess, imagine, along with the phrase “I say may because I don’t know in your case.” That was me going out of my way to admit I could be wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  71. I know DB, you always do. Its why people feel free to comment on your comments and an actual discussion sometimes occurs. Is there a problem?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Disney said, "Is there a problem?"

    Nope, not at all.

    This little chat helped my work day go by faster. Thanks ladies and gent.

    ReplyDelete
  73. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  74. DB, youre welcome but apparently you didnt wanna touch upon that subject. Its cool. That happens over here.

    ReplyDelete
  75. What subject?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Daft-
    why must you say the same things that have already been said? Gosh, you are quite annoying when you're trying to fit in...

    ReplyDelete
  77. Daft and Daniel,
    Yes, I think it was a joke. Dry humor. Imagine, finding a comment that might be taken as stereotypically sociopathic on a sociopath's blog. Should have put in the smiley face. Wouldn't be the first time my humor fell flat. I guess I'm lacking in the charm department (joke -- stereotypical "empath" statement)

    Not everyone you might call a "normal" is strongly empathic. I don't feel empathy for a news story the way I might if I were in the room with a grieving relative.

    My world-view on human nature -- most people are mostly good, capable of good, capable of incremental improvement, and, in a supportive environment, will work for the greater good. In a bad environment, they may despair. The thieves and embezzlers are a minority. The violent abusers are another minority.

    That empathic ability is part of the glue that binds society together. I may not have it so strongly, but I benefit from it.

    This worldview is reflective of my upbringing and my subsequent experience in life, which is highly influenced by my own choices and the choices of those I choose to hang out with.

    I'm not a big adherant of Oliver Stone's bleak view of human nature.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  78. Children without consciences:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COOKf3V5U6M&feature=player_embedded

    No remorse, because it was an "easy" crime and because they are "kinda pissed" that they had to give the money back. If it had been a difficult crime, or they had not had to give the money back, they might have felt remorse? It seems they simply don't understand the meaning of the word. They seem to be without conscience. And/or without a dictionary.

    A parent with a conscience would be aghast at the remorselessness. A parent without a conscience would have the luxury of being startled by the stupidity.

    -- lurker

    ReplyDelete
  79. Disney, I can relate. I gave up trying to be real with people a long time ago, because people just tend to look at me like I'm crazy unless I have an opportunity for demonstration through practical application. It's like having a conversation with someone with a mental handicap, and I say that as humbly as I can. Everything I say is designed to appeal to their sensitivity and simple interests. It really gets old.

    Do you have trouble connecting with people? I can get along with them just fine, but I can only think of 3 people with whom I've been able to form a real connection.

    When everyone else wants to talk about who won the super bowl, or how awesome a particular play was, I want to go over the overall strategy, the coach's possible thought process, why a player may have chosen to do what he did, how it helped shape the play, etc. And I'll get just as excited with that shit as they do about theirs.

    Everyone just looks at me says things like, "Who cares? It was an awesome play. He's just a great player."

    Well, duh. And the sky is blue.
    That's not interesting conversation.

    Anyway, I usually don't speak my mind in situations like that any more. Or ever, really. Mostly, I just humor people. I ask them questions, keep myself (and/or them) entertained by making jokes, and make comments I know will lead them further into whatever conversation they find interesting while I'm actually focused on something else. I smile and laugh a lot. I say nice things. Mostly I keep quiet and respond with facial expressions and body language.

    People love me, but I don't understand why. I personally think the personality I present is dull and boring, except for the jokes.

    Disney, do you experience anything like this? How do you cope with it? How do you not get bored with people? Or frustrated with having to deal with them?

    The only time I can have fun engaging in "real" conversation is when I'm extremely drunk.

    (And yes, I also empathize with the difficulty you experience trying to talk about this. Most people simply can't understand what it's like and/or get offended if you talk about your intelligence. It's very troubling not to be able to discuss one of the greatest sources of distress in your life because peoples' egos are too inflated and/or sensitive to handle it. It can make you feel very alone, and, for me at least, it makes me feel guilty for even trying.)

    ReplyDelete
  80. Thanks for sharing that lurker. I guessed that was your view of human nature. Believe it or not, my own view, at least on the theoretical level, is neutral. I see humans as neither ‘good’ nor ‘bad’. I do believe humanity’s primary drives are fear and selfishness, but I don’t see those as ‘bad’. They just… are. As I’ve said before, I also recognize that another factor that motivates human behavior is the bonding drive. There are perfectly valid reasons for evolution to have installed altruism – the desire to benefit the group at the expense of the self – in most human brains. I do see that. It’s not all I see though. It’s the other drives, like the one for acquiring things like status, possessions, territory, mates, and so on, combined with the drive to defend those acquisitions, with fear and selfishness underneath it all, that make for my 'tragic' view of humanity. It seems more rooted in reality than the optimistic one. But don’t worry. I won’t try to convince you that my view is the one you should adopt. We’re just exchanging perspectives.

    And wrt the Girl Scout cookie princesses… Wow. How stupid can they be? Talk about poor impulse control. Yes lurker, as you guessed, my own reaction was laughter, both at their honesty and their stupidity. If you didn’t know, the blond Paris Hilton one was arrested very recently on charges of kidnapping and robbery, both with a firearm. She could face up to life in prison for it. People like that should go to prison. Why? Because they are complete morons. There are more intelligent ways to commit robbery, ways that don’t involve appearing on the local news bragging about it, ways that don’t lead to time in jail.

    Were you 'aghast' at their behavior? Did the fact that they stole from a 9 year old Girl Scout, with no apparent remorse at all, anger you? And riddle me this lurker. Would a sincere display of remorse have made any difference? Why or why not?

    ReplyDelete
  81. PP

    You are a hoot.
    But yes I can relate to most of what you say. My humor makes people laugh and takes them offguard too, I sometimes have to watch that. ( if its not beneficial to me, for example some may be impressed, others just hurt and that isnt beneficial plus I dont really mean to hurt anyone) The thing is, like you, when Im not 'entertained' while in interaction with other people by their personality or conversation, I will start to entertain myself.

    But your example of the super bowl: that could have been me spot on.

    I get along with people more than just fine. Again, its just boring.
    So to your question, how do I cope with it;
    -Either I pick the people I actually invest time in carefully, or I sort of indulge in an orgy of bullshit if that makes any sense?
    -And then, I have other intellectual outlets.
    -I try to avoid situations in which I would have to listen to mindless blabber for too long.
    -I do physical things to get me out of my head:) Alcohol is too temporary a fix for me btw..

    You sound more of a 'thrillseeker' to me than I am. I think were speaking about this subject on a different level, not sure. 'Easy thrills' bore me too namely..Ive been there though...

    Lastly; I dont have a clue what you're trying to say with your last sentence.

    ReplyDelete
  82. I guess you could say I'm a thrill seeker.

    Perhaps we are talking about this from entirely different angles. This has always been a source of great distress for me. You seem to be fairly well adjusted.

    I'm really not happy with getting through social situations by acting. The only way to make that exciting is to have an objective, like seduction, etc., but that always backfires on me in the end.

    Alcohol is a different type of fix for me. I do just fine in conversation if I have something else to focus on, like a pub game, video game, cooking, etc. It keeps me entertained, and I'm not really focused on the conversation, so I don't wind up feeling dissatisfied with my shallow responses. When I'm drunk, I can focus all of my attention on the conversation and still enjoy it. It's a temporary relief, sure enough, but it's the only way for me to get it.

    For me, it usually boils down to a choice between focusing on something else, drinking, seducing, or anxiety.

    Anyway, thanks for indulging me, Disney. :)

    ReplyDelete
  83. PP

    I get pretty restless myself but I work on it...

    Have you tried weed? Mellows down instead of adding on.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Once upon a time.

    It makes me lose all interest in even pretending to care about what people say. Socially, it's counterproductive for me, but it's great for solo relaxation.

    I'm really not a big fan, and I gave up on trying to make it fun years ago. When I'm alone, I'd rather be stuck doing something than sitting around content doing nothing. Personal preference.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Disney, Peter Pan, all I can say is holy hell you two...drinking, smoking pot, seducing, talking about IQs, talking about wanting to fit in by not trying to fit in and then fitting in by changing who you really are and how unhappy that makes you, the list goes on…MY GOD!

    Then there is Daniel and Lurker, swapping moral views about humanity in the pursuit for a better understanding of enlightenment.

    Both conversations, amazingly enough, are still at their core about doing whatever it takes to become a better version of yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Daniel Birdick,
    I think conscience-free non-morons are able to cause MORE harm than the morons do, and so, according to the law, often deserves prison time more than the moron does.

    The fact that Wood and friend show no remorse means it is highly unlikely that they will change their behavior. Wood will get out of prison and continue to harm.

    Your question about my feelings viewing the video carries a lot of freight. I'll break it down.
    1) It is shocking, chilling that they feel entitled to whatever they can grab. Stefanie Woods is likely to get more dangerous even if she doesn't get smarter.
    2) Taking other people's stuff without their consent is usually unfair.
    3) In this case, the "usually" qualifier is pretty cut and dried, in part because the victim was a kids' club selling cookies to raise money. "Hey, that's not fair!"
    4) The act could cause psychological harm to a minor, so, yes, the fact that they stole from a 9-year-old seems like an additional infraction, though it isn't on the lawbooks.

    Is disgust an emotion? I saw the humor in it from the beginning, but didn't feel it. Why do you ask?

    A display of remorse, of course, is no guarantee of actual remorse. And actual remorse is no guarantee that a person will actually change.

    This video is one outcome the featured mother of the potential sociopath would probably like to avoid, for many reasons.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous

    Who says anything about becoming a better version of yourself? I think you missed the points we werent making.

    ReplyDelete
  88. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Has anybody here had their IQ tested? I haven't
    -- lurker

    ReplyDelete
  90. When I was a kid, yeah. I don't have much faith in them, though.

    (and not because I didn't score well)

    ReplyDelete
  91. I have faith in em BECAUSE I scored well. Hehe. Now lets get over our boredom and move on to a new post. ME has been trying to seduce us with new ones...

    ReplyDelete
  92. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  93. lurker:

    First, you use words like shocking, chilling and unfair to describe your reactions and thoughts. From my perspective, emotions and beliefs like that tend to cloud one’s view, which reduces clarity. Life is unfair, so to speak, precisely because fair doesn’t exist. Better the little 9 year old learn that now and adapt to reality rather than deal with debilitating disillusionment later. Or not. In any event, that’s a lesson I’d want my own child to learn early. I’d want to prepare my child to deal with the world of humans as it is, not as he/she would like it to be. Then again, I’m not a parent at this time, so who knows?

    Second, your comments on remorse are sensible enough. Why then do so many people put such emphasis on it? Why are normals so shocked and appalled when a criminal doesn’t show signs of remorse?

    Here’s hoping the mother does find a way to steer her daughter, if she is a sociopath, down a productive road. Naturally you and I would define ‘productive’ differently. With a little foresight, acceptance and intelligence, perhaps a parent can show a conscience free child a way to be what she is without ending up in prison or dead.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Information density is reaching a low

    ReplyDelete
  95. They never gave my family a number. The test was for admission into the gifted program. The only thing the program director told my mother was that I'd scored the 2nd highest she'd seen in her career.

    My homeroom teacher on the other hand was convinced that I had a learning disability. Funny how that works, ain't it?

    Honestly though, IQ tests are a joke. They test preference more than anything, and no matter how much they try to filter out cultural bias, it'll always be there. I happen to absolutely love learning, exploring, and picking things apart, so of course I scored higher.

    ReplyDelete
  96. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  97. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  98. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Daniel,

    Of course the forces of nature are not fair. People can choose whether or not to treat people fairly.

    Complete lack of remorse = person who will probably never choose to be fair.

    People who value fairness would prefer to, um, be around people who uphold fairness. The whole fairness thing works much better that way. Unfair people can make a real mess in a community of people who value fairness, so the fair-minded community would ordinarily prefer to teach its children to treat people fairly.

    Emotions are what they are. You get angry when people mess with your possessions? Or are other impulses more likely to cloud your judgement?

    Here's hoping that all parents, of all types of children, are able to steer their children toward a productive road. My definition of productive comes from a different dictionary than yours, I suspect. I'm hoping that all parents can teach their children to be trustworthy and treat people fairly and compassionately, among other things. I'd love to live in a world populated by those children. So, I suspect, would you.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Disney, Peter,
    You might try expanding your circle of friends. Look for a club or activity that attracts people who like to use their minds. MENSA? Chess club? Book club? Computer Club? Ham Radio? You might find others who are more like you and feel less lonely and dysphoric.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  101. Daniel,
    Why do you hope that the child in the blog posting learns to be productive? What's it to you?

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  102. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  103. I don't understand the debates on here sometimes. A lot of you are debating on being a sociopath or empath like it's a choice. Disney you take a condemning viewpoint on sociopaths as a whole before and after you returned. I can tell you right now that condemnation won't work on sociopathic personalities, because they don't care. You should focus on channeling peoples personalities, instead of witch hunting them. If you show a sociopath how something works in their benefit they are more likely to listen. Just telling them something is morally right or wrong won't do anything, but have them turn up their nose at you.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Lurker--
    I like the way you think..
    Good solid ideas..

    --not a lurker!!!

    ReplyDelete
  105. wow ukan, you are actually giving positive and productive feedback? Is that even possible for you? Pigs flying or hell freeze over?

    ReplyDelete
  106. lurker:

    People can choose ‘fairness’. It’s obvious however that they choose ‘unfairness’ more often though. If you don’t believe me, just take a random perusal of the headlines in any newspaper anywhere.

    It helps to speak in vague generalities when discussing ideals, like fairness based communities. No offense lurker, but I’ve noticed that you tend to do just that: speak in vague generalities. That way it’s easier to stay on a theoretical level rather than having to deal with the untidy realities we all have to face in our everyday lives. For example, where are these communities you speak of? Also, it’s one thing to talk about what everyone says they value. It’s quite another to notice what people actually value, which is always revealed in results. The US, the country I live in (because I don’t know where you’re from lurker), is a prime example of the difference between what people say they value and what they really value. I’ll assume that I don’t have to give specific examples, since the news is chock full of them.

    Would I love to live in a world where I was nice and everyone was nice or to use your terms, fair and compassionate? Actually, I don’t know the answer to that question. For better or worse, mankind has derived great value in having to face hardships, competition, endurance, struggling for survival against all odds. That struggle very often included warfare, mass slaughter, gross inequality and ruthless empire building. We (and modern civilization) are living proof of that value because we are all descendants of the winners, the ones who beat the odds, the survivors. It is arguable that we would not enjoy any of the benefits we take for granted today, including our big brains, without the previously mentioned 'horrors'. That was a good question lurker, one that I hadn’t thought about in a while.

    And lastly, I knew you were going to call me on my “I hope” comment. lol The truth is I could care less about the child referenced in ME’s post. I’m used to saying things like that in my offline world to be polite that’s all.

    ReplyDelete
  107. UKan has been known to give out some good insight in between his moments of psychotic ranting about nothing in particular and casual bashing of other commenters where grudges become him when he feels insulted, threatened or simply annoyed. Pigs flying have nothing to do with it, just his violent mood swings that alternate into charisma worthy of paying attention, until he flips again. Sadly, he is in rant mode more often then not.

    ReplyDelete
  108. My manic phase is over. Check back next week.

    ReplyDelete
  109. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  110. No hijacker my manic phase is far from over. I'm just getting started.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Daniel,
    If, for some reason, you did have a child of your own, would it matter to you whether the child grew up to be productive, jailed, or dead?

    For many reasons, I would like every child to grow up to embody principals of fairness, respect, and compassion. The most selfish of these reasons is that I like to live in a community where people treat each other with fairness, respect, and compassion.

    UKan,
    It is always difficult when dealing with a person who does not share your value system. How could you convince a sociopath to conform to a value system he does not value? I imagine that, in general, it is not possible. In particular cases, there may be hooks. Like "Well, you know, she will eventually pull herself together and tell people. Then you likely won't get that promotion you want". In a case where he has figured out how to steal (embezzle, phreak, insurance or credit card fraud) without getting caught, this may be more difficult.

    If "Helping to build a community where people treat each other with fairness and respect" is not on his list of goals, appealing to this ideal will not motivate him. Will it?

    ReplyDelete
  112. lurker:

    Of course it would matter how my hypothetical child ended up. Not enough to send me into a tailspin of despair and misery if they made a series of ‘unfortunate’ choices mind you. No one will have that kind of say over my emotional state of being, not even my own child. I’d care though, in my own way. I think. For me, productive in this context means that he would grow up equipped to face the world and make the most out of it, however he defines that. I’d want to tailor my parenting responses to the child’s unique personality and not according to any notions about being an “upstanding member of society”. That would quite literally be the last thing on my mind when it comes to my theoretical parenting philosophy.

    “For many reasons, I would like every child to grow up to embody principals of fairness, respect, and compassion. The most selfish of these reasons is that I like to live in a community where people treat each other with fairness, respect, and compassion.”

    Good luck with that.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Daniel Birdick,

    Interesting comment on child-rearing.

    And thanks for your sincere good wishes. So far, so good.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  114. Lurker, of course not. I can speak for myself in saying I don't care for building a community with fairness and respect. It surprises me that anyone does in this day and age with all the nonsense going on. Everyone's out for themselves. You can see it on the highway, at work, or at the pub. I think what people fear is the fact that sociopathic people have a lot of power in the fact they can persuade people easily, they're pragmatic, and they're driven towards control. It's one thing to want power, but it's something completely different when you can obtain it with ease. For a lot of people that's a dangerous monster. In some cases it actually is a dangerous monster. As I've said before power is the ultimate high. You think you are consuming it, and the fact is that it's consuming you.
    You have to find a way to focus the child towards wielding power correctly and in a way that is not self destructive. Emphasis on self destructive, because people want emphasis on not destroying the community and that doesn't even matter to a sociopath. You have to take every sociopathic trait and train the child to not get carried away to their own determent. In training these traits you would have to appeal to their narcissistic attitude and self preservation.

    ReplyDelete
  115. What UKan said made sense for anyone who is a parent of a young sociopathic child. Nice advice man.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Who here has the patience to train a young child of any type?
    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  117. lurker-
    I do..But then again Im not a sociopath. I dont understand what 'sociopaths' have against children.. I dont get it?

    ReplyDelete
  118. A parent would have patience. A child is the ultimate protoge. You would have to be blind not to see the advantages.

    ReplyDelete
  119. I am actually blind and childless Ukan, so can you please explain?

    ReplyDelete
  120. It seems so-called sociopaths have a different set of weaknesses than so-called empaths.

    --lurker

    ReplyDelete
  121. UKan, people don't fear the power so much as the way it will likely be used. It may be difficult for you to differentiate between the two, as the power is a direct result of your methodology, but they're two very different beasts.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Just a couple of questions from an infinitely curious "empath".

    Can any real sociopaths here tell me if they feel the need to have people care about them?

    That's just something I've wondered about. If truth be told, I'm fairly narcissistic and I really get a kick out of knowing (after an investment on my behalf) people care about me, like me, love me, feel guilt towards me or would greatly miss me (and I say that's narcissistic because I care more about them caring about me than I care about them - and it's as much about knowing I can affect them like this).

    And this is the main thing I find depressing about the existence of sociopaths and psychopaths. Whatever I do, I can't inspire those feelings in such people. Do sociopaths have the same sentiments about this?

    Also, assuming there are at least a few experts on the subject here, what is/are the defining difference(s) between a sociopath and a psychopath?

    I've always just classified a psychopath as a sociopath on their way up :)

    ReplyDelete
  123. Jimmy said, “Can any real sociopaths here tell me if they feel the need to have people care about them?”

    I can’t speak for “real sociopaths”. I can, however, speak for the me that I am and I don’t. I no more need people to care about me than I need an enema. Otherwise, I could care less.

    “Do sociopaths have the same sentiments about this?”

    Again, I’m not a sociopath spokesperson. But for me, I’d find not being able to evoke the kinds of feelings you talk about problematic only to the degree that it was an obstacle to me achieving any of my goals.

    ReplyDelete
  124. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  125. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)

    ReplyDelete

Comments on posts over 14 days are SPAM filtered and may not show up right away or at all.

Join Amazon Prime - Watch Over 40,000 Movies

.

Comments are unmoderated. Blog owner is not responsible for third party content. By leaving comments on the blog, commenters give license to the blog owner to reprint attributed comments in any form.