Sunday, November 15, 2009

Are Co-dependents and sociopaths a perfect match?

So asks a reader:
Just wanted to let you know I really enjoy reading your blog. I have been researching sociopaths, for personal reasons, over the past couple years and always wanted to hear more about the way sociopaths think, behave, react etc...so I have been visiting everyday in order to gain more knowledge. I myself am a total empath....a people pleaser, co-dependent. There are things about it I like, and others I don't....

I understand precisely why I am that way. It has to do with my mothers expectations of me growing up, but that's another story. I first started my investigating due to the fact that my boyfriend was sending me mixed messages. By mixed, I mean from a point where I thought he likely did care-I was never certain though, to the point where he was threatening to kill me when things didn't go the way he wanted them too-usually got caught behaving badly or lying. Although I am driven by my emotions, I try to communicate with him logically to avoid conflict. If I show him that I am upset he instantly becomes defensive and angry. I usually get a damaging verbal beating thereafter. I get it though, it is only out of his frustration because he doesn't understand how what he says could hurt me..nor does it make any difference to him. It took along while before I understood this. He considers me a nuisance when my feelings are involved. He has got better at pretending to care over the years though with guidance from me, lol. After court ordered anger management I think he learned that it wasn't in his best interest to lose complete control. I realize anything he changes is only for himself and is never a result of what I would like.

When I first started my mission of better understanding I was appalled to discover that some people never feel any emotion~ now in some ways I believe this may be more beneficial than having them...I believe there is a place for both types. Without one there wouldn't be the other. I often wonder if that is where the term opposites attract came from.

There is much more to know about my personal experiences with my potentially sociopathic BF. I will continue to visit and if you are ever looking for some input from a person such as myself, I would pleased to assist you. That's what I'm best at!

Cheers!
The people pleaser
I love this for some reason. Maybe it is the slight abused-spouse vibe I get, or maybe it is the complete willingness to accept the sociopath worldview from a non-sociopath, or maybe it is the fact that these two crazy kids are still apparently dating. But I shared it because a lot of people wonder how you could date a sociopath. This is how.

256 comments:

  1. Get into this deeper ME!

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  2. This reader says, " I was appalled to discover that some people never feel emotion" and it was never corrected by the self-proclaimed sociopaths who frequent this site. ME was happy about this response and claimed to have loved it, Disney exclaimed "Get into this deeper ME!" and Daniel Birdick has previously stated he had detested his father. Clearly sociopaths feel emotion. Or don't they? or do they? nothing seems consistent. Why aren't statements like these corrected?

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  3. Co-dependents never truly want to be pleased, wanting to live in their "I'm so good, but why don't they do so and so... and why do they treat me like shit" world, and sociopaths need to thrive in their "No one can see me, I am invincible, untouchable, I am taking advantage of you stupid victim" place.

    So, yeah.


    Gosh, this world is fucked up.

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  5. Anon said: "Clearly sociopaths feel emotion. Or don't they? or do they? nothing seems consistent. Why aren't statements like these corrected?"

    The best explanation I've read:

    Sociopaths feel 'primary' emotions very deeply - anger, fear, joy, pleasure. All the emotional responses you'd expect from any mammal who has to protect himself and get off.

    What we don't have are the 'secondary' or social emotions - love, sympathy, remorse, shame, etc. We have a sort of blindness when it comes to the emotional content of social relationships.

    I haven't seen my mother in about 5 years. I do call her once a month to keep her quiet, but I don't really care if I ever see her again. Nice lady, bit of a chore to deal with though.

    Now I do feel a sense of joy or elation when a pretty girl's choking on my cock, or if I've made lots of money. So I'm definitely 'emotional' in that sense.

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  6. Anonymous said, “Daniel Birdick has previously stated he had detested his father. Clearly sociopaths feel emotion. Or don't they? or do they?”

    Anon:

    The whole “no emotion” thing is an urban myth. All of my personal research indicates that Hare’s psychopaths, for instance, do feel emotions, just not deep or complex ones. That’s where the phrase “shallow affect” comes from.

    As for me personally, apparently my emotions aren’t all that profound compared to what other people report feeling. I feel anger, as my previous comment about my father indicates. I can be easily frustrated when small things don’t go my way, like losing a parking space, which briefly produced fantasies of beating the person in the other car with a baseball bat about the head. Then again, I think that’s pretty typical of most people. As to the so called complex and/or “higher” emotions, well, I don’t appear to have much firsthand knowledge of them (what the hell is a complex emotion anyway?). I’m basing that on what I’ve read and seen, both in my personal experience, as well as in popular media. All of these people from various sources claim to experience emotion in a way that is foreign to me. They could be exaggerating or lying to themselves. The more likely explanation however is that they are telling the truth and I’m the one whose emotional buttons have been turned down considerably. Not off mind you, just down.

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  7. Or what Harry Lime said, except for the mother comments. I like my mommy. I really do. Sure, she's a bit of a neurotic bitch, but hey, who's mom isn't?

    As to the post itself… Well let's just say that it reminds me of why I’m glad I’m a shade or three cooler than most.

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  8. DB

    If you mom would die ( thats actually not an if) what do you expect to feel. Would it impact your emotional stability in any way even for a while, or would it be a more mental than emotional thing; " too bad I wont be able to count on her anymore, she sure was always sweet to me' instead of just an overwhelming feeling of loss and hurt for example? Thanks.

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  11. Disney:

    I expect to feel some sadness. I imagine I’ll miss her. I’d probably have to watch a sad movie to make myself really cry though. Apparently me and mourning aren’t all that acquainted.

    And honestly, I don’t what you mean when you ask about the impact on my emotional stability. Unless you’re asking if I will go thru something like Kubler-Ross’s stages of grief. I suppose it’s possible, but it doesn’t seem likely.

    Why? Would you under the same circumstances?

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  15. Anon, if you enjoy sucking dick, it doesn't matter the size because you're a jizz junkie and you'll want to get your fix no matter the source.

    Daft, don't even reply to this guy, he just wants your cum.

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  16. Well he can't have it. It's evil sperm and each of his swimmers had murder a dozen or so thousand others get make it into daft's wad. It's devil spunk! When it flows, it kills all that is good and pure!

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  21. "Anon, if you enjoy sucking dick, it doesn't matter the size because you're a jizz junkie and you'll want to get your fix no matter the source.

    Daft, don't even reply to this guy, he just wants your cum"


    SIZE MATTERS! ASK YOUR GIRLFRIEND...

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  22. Dirty Harriett:

    Thanks for the tip. You’re a peach!

    And as far as the PCL-R score goes, under what circumstances were you tested in the first place? It has to be administered by a professional, in clinical circumstances. Have you been seeing someone, say, a psychologist? Why did this spark an “existential crisis”, to use your words?

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  25. Besides...if I had to ask her about size, it says more about me then it does about her.

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  27. Daft-
    Are you done with your defensive crying yet? Your watermelon is waiting.........

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  29. DH:

    I mentioned existential crisis because that’s the phrase you used in the comment you deleted. Yeah, I caught it.

    So, you think you’re a psychopath huh? Tell me love, how does that make you feel? :) Seriously though, do you experience guilt and/or remorse when you think, feel or do something “wrong”? If so, how strong are those feelings? Do they ever prevent you from doing “bad” things?

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  32. Why can't sociopaths date each other? It makes sense.

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  34. http://similarminds.com/personality_disorder.html

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  35. Because we make infamous couples.

    See Bonnie and Clyde.

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  37. Dirty--
    I thought you were a destroyer of sociopaths, not one yourself.
    What brought about the change of heart?

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  41. DH:

    Don’t focus so much on the label. It’s a good starting place, but, as I’ve said repeatedly, outside of a clinical, institutional, or prison setting, it doesn’t matter all that much. Also, labels like sociopath/psychopath are used pejoratively most of the time, which is why I have zero problems with not religiously applying them to myself. Focus instead on the core traits and whether those traits both describe a significant part of your inner world as well as your behavior. Also, is this explanation clarifying or does it makes things murkier instead?

    A few more diagnostic-like questions from a complete unprofessional:

    Do you find it easy to take on a variety of roles depending on the situation you’re in?

    How do you feel about humanity in general? Are they good at heart, in your opinion? Bad at heart? Somewhere in between?

    How did you feel when you tortured those animals at a young age?

    Why would the idea of being a psychopath (if you are) leave you feeling disturbed and gross?

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  43. DirtyHarriett said, “Could it be that everyone is a closet sociopath, and just in denial?”

    Well if we’re going to take any of this serious in terms of accuracy, I’m going to say no. But I will say that I believe everyone is selfish and willing to do what they must to pursue what they believe are their best interests. They may cloak those actions with all sorts of lovely justifications, but in the end, results are results. I also think that empaths are not as empathic as they say they are. The continent of Africa stands as a living, starving testimony to that. Finally, everyone probably has at least one trait that is normally considered sociopathic/narcissistic. For instance, as I already said, I believe everyone is essentially self-centered. So that’s one. Others have the ability to be, say, ruthless in business but sweet at home, or vice versa. Others might have very fluid personas and a robust conscience. Others might be anti-social against this particular form of government while hopelessly idealistic about the kind of society they wish to live in. And so on and so on. It isn’t either/or. It’s a matter of degree.

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  46. DH:

    So that first conversation I had with you back in October, the one where I christened you Dirty Harriett (I knew there was a reason that nickname sprung to mind), was what I suspected it was: bullshit? You know, the one where you vociferously argued that calling the police was the right thing to do and that the law was great and what not? I’m chuckling. Anyone capable of taking the kind of pleasure you took in hurting your boyfriend probably doesn’t have a normal conscience, do they?

    “‘Why would the idea of being a psychopath (if you are) leave you feeling disturbed and gross?’

    Because, it would mean that I'm really up shits creek, unless I figure out how to manage it.”


    Are you having problems managing yourself?

    Also, for the record, I’m choosing to believe your story. Is it true? Is it a lie? Who knows. And frankly who cares? I’m going along because it doesn’t cost me a thing to do so. If you are pulling my leg, keep pulling sister, only aim a little higher...

    Now if you'll excuse me, I must bid you adieu. Till next mon cheri.

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  47. Look Daft, I wasn’t going to say anything, but answering questions that were not directed to you prompts me to wonder, why? Your comments here on this site do come off as needy. Needy of validation. You may have the instinct to now attack me, and if that’s what you feel like doing, go for it. If you do feel that way though, once that feeling passes, I’d suggest you look at the neediness and get clear on where it stems from and why. There’s nothing to prove and no one worth proving it to. Believe me.

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  51. Daft,

    My guess:

    It's your passive inclination and eager participation, at least, with this thread.

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  52. Daft Cap Wearer (nice play on mad hatter by the way) has a distinct tone in everything he posts and it is so subtle that no one has even given him props for it. The guy’s underlying sarcasm and wit is damn near perfect. Pretty much everyone on here doesn’t see what he is doing.

    Granted, he isn’t a genius, but he did best a few people on here and did it really under the radar wither he knows it or not, brought up something interesting about the people on this commenting board.

    He's needy? PLEASE! He's playing needy, I can't wait til he changes himself up again.

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  54. 22m soldotna
    not under radar
    very on radar
    soon my friend
    soon

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  55. what is that gibberish?

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  56. yeah...

    daft isnt that smart. he cant fool anyone because he is a needy baby who doesnt understand when the other commenters want him to leave.

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  57. DB to answer your question from earlier

    I have lost several loved ones. Some I forgot about pretty soon strangely and one in particular made me sick ( the loss of said person) for a while and I did experience pain. Now you will ask what does that pain entail. Well I guess that pain needs no explanation because when you have it, you'll know. Its cuts through you.

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  58. Disney:

    I don’t think it’s so strange you forgot some of your loved ones easily. Again, I suspect this is how it is for most people. Perhaps the only real difference is that some of us don’t mind admitting that, both to ourselves and to others. As far as the pain that “cuts thru you”, well who knows? I might experience something like that at some point. I’m a chilly soul, but anything’s possible. How long did it take this cutting pain to dissipate for you?

    Daft:

    I’ll say this for you. You did not immediately move to attack/defense mode. I’m guessing that’s because you saw that I wasn’t trying to insult you. I was merely making an observation. Anyway, good luck in your efforts to gain more awareness.

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  59. M.E.,
    Wouldn't you be disgusted by someone who always does what you want them to? If I remember correctly, most of the self-proclaimed sociopaths here have expressed sentiments like this. Would such disgust be provocation enough to start a cycle of verbal and/or physical abuse? Or would you see reason enough to restrain yourself long-term?

    Since M.E. won't answer, would any of the commenters care to? Also please explain your answers if you've got the time and will. Otherwise they're pretty much worthless.

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  60. I have BPD, and I used to date a sociopath (who sometimes accuses me of being a sociopath, when he's feeling contentious), we're still close to this day. This is completely the wrong way to do it. You might as well be fucking bending over for him and asking him to arse fuck you.
    When I was dating him, he was at the end of a relationship with another woman, who was dull and ridiculous and fucking boring. His view was that she was so pathetic that she deserved everything she got. I attended to agree with him. He would tell her to jump, she would ask how high, sort of thing. I was never like that. When we were together, we tested eachother constantly. It was sort of like how far can we push it. He always took it "too far", and when we were together, that was when our closeness really dissipated. He didn't like having feelings for me, he said he felt they were like a "disease" that had come in and infiltrated his body, and he hated them, and he hated me because of them. When I told him I loved him, he said "How dare you".
    But, it did work for a long while, and we were quite happy. We were happy because we both knew each-other's capabilities, he knew I wasn't the loveliest woman in the world and that I wouldn't take it like a bitch if he tried to be cruel to me, so he didn't. He developed RESPECT for me, and perhaps that what this woman should try having for her fucking self.

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  61. PP:

    Because it’s Monday and I’m bored:

    I have a co-worker who I have lunch with once every week, give or take. He’s what Robert Greene of “48 Laws of Power” fame calls an anti-seducer. Almost everything about the way he presents himself is designed to repel, including his preening need to please. He apologizes for everything. Anyway, I have a standing lunch date with a co-worker or three every day and one of them decided to invite him once out of pity. Once became an almost weekly date. Last week, I told the inviter that I’m going to tell, let’s call him Huey, that he’s no longer invited. I find Huey’s presence highly annoying. I knew she’d respond with hesitation to my suggestion, which she did. Her guilt is getting the best of her. She and I believe the kid (who’s 39) will be horribly hurt by what he’ll see as a rejection. She’ll feel terrible about hurting his feelings, while I of course, will be just fine. His feelings are his affair and if he’s not aware enough to handle them, then that’s his problem, not mine. Because she’s afraid of her guilt (or is guilt itself a kind of fear reaction…) my sweet do-gooder friend wants to try a gradual parting of the ways rather than the abrupt cutoff I intended. I’m going along with her for now.

    Why do I have this, to use your word, disgust for Huey? After all, he’d do almost anything to please me. He’s like an earnest puppy that way. Honestly, I’m not sure why. I’ve always felt this way about the desperate to please person though and I suspect that once again this isn’t particular to so called sociopaths either. We all have strengths and weaknesses to be sure. However, to not make any effort to understand or work around those weaknesses, but to instead almost revel in them, wrap them around you like a cloak against the cold, something about that does indeed disgust me. It does make me want to slap that person down verbally, if not physically. If I had a use for him, I'd keep him around, cultivate him even. As of now, I don't so in 2 weeks I'm going to break his heart. Poor thing.

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  62. S&S you sound pretty damn delusional. If your boyfriend was indeed a sociopath, then he played you like a fiddle. He didn't respect you, and the fact that you seem to believe he did just goes to show how much he really worked you over.

    I agree with the general thoughts expressed in your comment though. I don't think a relationship based on complete, pathological submission would be happy for either party. Either the sociopath or codependent would need to be a rare breed indeed, even within the population of their disorders. I think the codependent will eventually need something more than the sociopath can offer, and/or will get tired of the abuse, which may get steadily worse as the sociopath grows bored with and disdainful of their pathetic excuse for a partner.

    Hardly a perfect match in my opinion.

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  63. DB
    When I think about it, its always there. I thus only think about it when I can. The worst pain was the first few days. But like I said, it will never wear off.
    I did care about the other people I loved and lost, but their influence on me wasnt big enough I guess.
    Why do you suspect that maybe you will experience that pain once? Or was that just a shot in the dark.

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  64. Thanks for the response DB. Much appreciated. You know you don't need an excuse to respond to my comments, right?

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  65. PP

    I was just sharpening my pencil to comment on the S&S post, but you read my mind.

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  66. Disney, I do get it right from time to time. :)

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  67. PP:

    You're welcome. You know I love it when you give me permission. It makes me feel all snuggly and safe on the inside.

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  68. Oh, quit trying to maintain your image and just enjoy the conversation, would ya? Fuck, man.

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  69. Disney said, “Why do you suspect that maybe you will experience that pain once?”


    I don’t know actually. Perhaps it’s because a small part of me keeps wondering when I’ll be overwhelmed by emotions the way other people seem to be at funerals/weddings/births/divorces/murders/petty human drama and so on. Even now. I like to keep telling myself that anything is possible and just because it hasn’t happened yet (and I’m 35) doesn’t necessarily mean it never will. If it does, great. If it doesn’t, great. I’m open either way though.

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  70. PP:

    What image?!? Damn, I keep forgetting that around this joint we have to actually say point blank when we're being smart asses in a completely harmless, even friendly way. Ok, that last comment was total smart assery with no insult intended whatsoever, on any level, in any way.

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  71. I didn't take it as an insult, man. You just tend to come off as always being on guard. It's not just these comments; it's your whole style of commenting. If that's just who you are, then more power to you, but personally, I don't understand this need to maintain your composure and head off every attack with unnecessary disclaimers, etc. Bores the shit out of me.

    Anyway, you did grace me with a response, so I'll just stop here. Not trying to jump you or anything. :)

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  72. I suspect I tend to come off that way to you personally because a good portion of our interactions here have been... challenging.

    It is what it is my friend, and as far as I'm concerned, it's all good.

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  73. PP:

    Excellent. (Imagine me saying that in my best Mr. Burns from 'The Simpsons' voice.)

    So... what about you then? You got any people pleasing/desperate people in your neck of the woods that you wanna smack around at least once?

    *Goddamn I'm going to have to do something about this boring job...

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  74. Mmmm yes. But I'm enjoying her for the moment. It's getting tough not to start shit with her, though. It gets boring quickly.

    I ditched most of the others. It's too tempting to fuck them over for no reason, and believe it or not, I'm not a fan of that.

    I like my women fiery but essentially human. They've gotta have a soul to steal... smoldering and just begging to be chilled. Like a wild buck to be tied up, tied down, and left to atrophy until there's no more fight left in the beast. That's my dream... only it loses its luster when they lose their will. Too bad it can't last forever, huh?

    If I don't have that, my heart's just not in it.

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  75. DB

    You always come off that way, not just to PP. And if anyone on here wouldnt have to that it would be you, since you simply add the most to the discussions.

    PP
    Did you notice how you changed the subject from being about passive, desperate pleasing people ( also what DB asked) to bam; fiery women? You really have difficulty with your attention span dont you:)

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  76. Sure do, but the information was relevant. We were after all talking about relationships, and I think my example presented a pretty nice contrast, don't you?

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  77. Sorry, maybe I was just stuck "on topic" for once. Hah! Imagine that.

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  78. PP
    Yeah its interesting. If you explore it a bit more. Now its just a bit cliche, dont you think so?

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  79. The original disagreement with the topic is a bit old, sure, but people here rarely go into such heart-felt detail as I did in that comment. I think it's refreshing to see someone, even if it's just me, speaking candidly about their preferences in a way that's not carefully plotted out. I'm kinda sick of the usual, "I love to control people," "I like to use people," "I don't care about anyone/anything" drudgery. Real examples are where it's at... for me anyway.

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  80. PP

    Right, only you didnt go into 'heart-felt' detail. In my opinion at least:)

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  81. Disney:

    Ah, but I could say the same thing to you that I said to PP. You probably feel that way because you and I have had our fair share of… “debates”. Only our “debates” have had a different flavor than the ones I’ve had with PP. If/when I state a position and one of you comes forth to challenge the Dragon King in your own unique ways, he comes forth to defend his claim. (And just in case, I’m still in joking mode.) In your case, you were fishing for something in the beginning but you weren’t upfront about what that something was. I wonder if half of the so called normals who comment here do so because they suspect they're more sociopathic than they care to admit...

    Btw, when I see the initials DB, I think of Dirty Bastard, as in Ole Dirty Bastard. What does that say about me that I’m cool with being called an Ole Dirty Bastard? Don’t answer that.

    PP:

    I say, go for a string of relationships that end with you breaking the spirit of wild women. Why not? What have you got to lose?

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  82. Can't nail 'em all, I guess. :)

    What about you? Let's get a "normal"'s perspective on all this. How do you feel about pushovers? What temperament do you prefer in a partner?

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  83. DB,
    Because I want permanence. I get attached. When I break their hearts, and it has to come to an end, it breaks my heart, too. I want the ride to last forever. I have to be very careful with the relationships I choose to get involved in, for my own sake.

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  84. And Disney, if you're looking for detail, give us some. Detail. Break it down Julie Brown. What would you have liked ME to say about this BPD girl and her sociopath lover that he didn't say?

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  85. You know, as much as I hate to admit it, I kinda feel like a kid who broke his favorite toy, or who accidentally killed his puppy. It hurts a lot, and all I want is for them to get back on their feet and keep having fun with me. When I lose that, it's devastating.

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  86. PP:

    I say, go for what you want, whatever that is. Find permanence, then if you must, cheat on the side with a hot, wild woman. It’s what people do, no? You’re free. Better a broken heart than no heart, right?

    I know, you don’t have to say it. I’m brilliant. Send contributions to the ‘Daniel Birdick is Brilliant Fund’ care of ME@sociopathworld.com.

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  87. M.E. doesn't talk to me any more. Hehe.

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  88. I just read your last comment PP. Isn't that what it's all about? The pain, the agony, the drama? Isn't the point of the roller coaster ride that passes for normal human relationships the rush, the feeling? Sure the lows are agony, but the highs are ecstasy, right?

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  89. I honestly have no idea why people do what they do. It's all a fairy tale to me, and people never behave rationally when it comes to relationships.

    What about you, Daniel? Is that your take on the dating game? What about partners?

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  90. PP:

    Speaking of jokes, let’s talk about dating. Actually, I’ve been single the last few years. I figured I needed to do that rather than put myself thru even more needless drama because of my lack of self knowledge. But when I do start dating again… hmm… I don’t know. It’ll be odd because I’ll have to fake so much, something I didn’t fully understand about myself before. I remember talking with jasnowflake about the possibility of two people who have similar personality traits like this being in a relationship. Many people believe it’s impossible. I don’t know myself. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I assume however that I won’t find anyone who will be quite like me, so naturally I suspect my future relationships to be more like Don Draper’s or Dexter’s marriages.

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  91. Good questions; I expect DB has sworn off his relations to women. But naturally I could be wrong.

    PP If you want to have permanence with the kind of women youre talking about you need to do things in the right dosage. A bit more self control will get you more.

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  92. So there's no specific type of woman that gets your full attention? Interesting.

    I faked it for a long time, but lately I've found honesty to be surprisingly effective. Shit, I told the girl I'm with now that I don't care about anyone or anything but whatever my current goal is, and I told her I get bored with people very easily. She cried in my arms while I was telling her this, and I occasionally threw in a loving caress or kiss to the forehead. Result? She told me she knows she's going to get hurt, but she wants to enjoy it for as long as it lasts.

    So, honesty isn't always a bad thing. Granted, I don't really want to wind up with a girl like this. There's no spark, no fire, no epic battle. But at least I can be comfortable and honest around her for the time being, which is nice.

    Plus, normal people pick up on the fake charm more than we think. I think it's always best to mix in as much honesty as you can get away with.

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  93. DB

    I only just now read your last comment, guess my gut feeling was right.

    What would you expect to get out of a marriage or relationship like Dexter with Rita for instance?

    I truly dont understand why you wouldnt just be yourself, even if you were a complete Dexter. The ones that wont be interested will leave and eventually you will be left with your match as far as that is possible. Might be more fun. Wear a mask, youll never even try.

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  94. PP

    You really make a lot of sense you know, once you explain yourself that is.

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  95. What?! Are you implying that I've ever made anything other than absolutely perfect sense?! Disney, come on... why do you have to be like that?

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  96. PP:

    Personal revelation time. No specific type of woman interests me in general. Sex in general doesn’t interest me frankly. Don’t get me wrong. Hot is hot and I can appreciate a woman’s beauty. But in the end, what I’ve learned about myself is that I don’t really need anyone.

    Disney:

    To contradict myself a bit in what I just said to PP, although I don’t need anyone, I wouldn’t necessarily mind being with someone either. Especially now that I have more than a clue. And if I go thru with something I’m thinking of doing, being with a steady someone will be helpful. Dexter started off with Rita precisely because being with her was a useful cover, a way to divert attention from him while he engaged in his extracurricular activities. Although, I see that in this season, he’s starting to develop genuine feelings for his family. Who knows? Maybe that might happen to me.

    Why couldn’t I be myself? For one, my ‘self’ is too… flexible, too cold for most people, especially women, I think. The things people in general care about mean nothing to me, and I’ve learned thru trial and error (i.e. the hard way) how people respond when you communicate clearly that you don’t give a flying fuck about the things they live and die for. Of course, I might indeed find someone who was compatible with me on an inner level, someone who had a elastic sense of morality and who didn’t expect all sorts of passion from me. (Tom Ripley’s relationship with Heloise in the latter books, for instance.) But I’m not holding my breath on that one. One thing’s for sure though. If I ever have kids, the mother must be intelligent.

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  97. Daniel, I really think it depends on what kind of spin you put on the truth. People are more receptive to the flavor of what you say than what you're actually saying. Timing is also important.

    I've seen one truly amazing person do truly unspeakable things, revel in the glory of it in front of everyone, and have everyone laugh about it. Anyone else would probably have been beaten to death or turned over to the authorities. Everyone loved him.

    That's true freedom my friend, and it's worth striving for. To me, at least.

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  98. DB said "And if I go thru with something I’m thinking of doing, being with a steady someone will be helpful. Dexter started off with Rita precisely because being with her was a useful cover, a way to divert attention from him while he engaged in his extracurricular activities"

    Given what else you've said, as with Harry Lime enough has been said now to warrant a notification to law enforcement. They will have to decide whether you are worth tracing and investigating, but keep that in mind as you plan your 'activities'.

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  99. What is this, some kind of pathetic joke? Like law enforcement is going to be interested in some vague bullshit about somebody DOING something. Oh my God, heaven forbid someone DO something that might require a cover.

    CALL THE COPS! RUN FOR THE HILLS!

    Yeah fuckin' right. I don't remember him mentioning a damn thing that even suggests his actions might be illegal. For all we know, he wants to run for president.

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  100. DB

    Youre smart, you know the past is the best predictor of the future. So I dont understand why you keep holding on to expecting to feel something you cant even understand at this point.

    A marriage or relationship just as a cover up seems too much hassle and not necessary. You MUST get something out of it. Doesnt the idea of companionship in one way or the other attract you? I personally wouldnt be able to do that with someone who bores me. For even the simplest of things like enjoying a good movie I would need someone beside me who at least gets my view on it and could add a nice touch/interesting perspective to it, or Id MUCH rather watch it by myself. Thats why Im no sociopath, I dont need an audience per se.

    You dont sound particularly flexible, so maybe you have found some sort of core to yourself.

    What do you live for at this point?

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  101. PP

    Thats what I thought; DB wants to go into politics. I wasnt thinking about anything illegal either. People are retarded.

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  102. Thanks PP for stating the obvious on that law enforcement thing. I’d never be so stupid as to talk about illegal activities with anyone here or anywhere else on the internet. I might as well take out an ad in the paper if I’m going to do that. For pity’s sake people.

    Anyway, I’ll respond to your other comment a bit later.

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  103. I wouldn't have half as much fun here if that jerk succeeded in scaring the commenters. :)

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  104. Of course I've considered that I was played, but I think after years of us being close friends (which works a hell of a lot better than us being lovers), I've realised that I wasn't just there to serve a purpose, and that he did have feelings for me, the way I did for him. I wrestled with this thought for a long time, but I suppose now I assume so because there's nothing more he could possibly want from me, and yet we are still close. He still talks to me about things, and I can (most of the time) tell when he is lying. I know he's incredibly manipulative, but he knows the same of me, too.
    Of course I don't expect the words I write up here to paint a clear image of what the relationship is like, and before I commented on here I knew I'd receive some sort of backlash involving the suggestion that I was, and am still being, played. I don't agree. I'm not fucking stupid. And it's not like I don't know how to play people myself. What do you think I am, some kind of retard?

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  105. S&S the issue is that you're assigning feelings to someone who by definition can't experience them for you. The rest is really irrelevant, especially because you describe yourself as "close" to this individual with no suggestion that you are, in fact, playing him. Either he isn't a sociopath, or there is something he wants, even if it's just entertainment. This idea of him respecting you and loving you is crazy unless, again, he's not a sociopath, which is entirely possible.

    I'm just stating my logical interpretation of what you've said and what the facts are. No matter how you slice it, you're wrong, but that doesn't make you a retard unless you continue to hold on to these ideas that just don't add up rationally.

    Either he's a sociopath and playing you (even if you ARE playing him as well, which is irrelevant), or he's not a sociopath and has feelings and respect for you. It's one or the other my dear.

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  106. S&S

    Why not accept the idea that he could have played you. Seriously take time to go there in your mind and see what you find. That you and him got something else out of the relationship and you might not know what he got out of it because you cant think like he does. You defensively ask anonymous commenters on a blog whether we think you are retarded, that gives me a good clue that you might not see things as they are, but you think it will severely hurt and damage you if you were in fact played with, certainly by someone youve been ' friends' with for so long.

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  107. I don't know who you are, S&S, but you sound like my ex.

    I'm a sociopath, formally diagnosed and detained. I understand what one is, thanks, and I don't have to do Patrick Bateman impressions all day for you to understand that I am - and know I am. I would start to talk about "treatment", but I feel that's a different post.

    Whenever I've been in a relationship, I've wanted to possess that person, and when they don't let me I see this as a further challenge, it sharpens me and makes me better and I really enjoy the challenge that I know I will inevitably win. And I don't know about you, but i place respect next to love. If I respect a woman, i feel this is as close to love as I'm going to get. I mention my x gf because I felt very strongly about her because she was quite resistant to my testing of her. I thought she might have been a sociopath, that's why I came across this article. She had BPD and DSPD, and I thought she was as insane as me. I didn't get her. The worst thing with BPD is their seeming abundance of unnecessary emotions. Perhaps that is what he disliked, S&S.
    If they are still close though - if there is nothing he can "Take" from her, then maybe he does genuinely respect her?
    I don't know. I'm just commenting. I was with someone like that, and I've never felt like that about anyone since. I like a woman who can test me and I can test her. Especially if she's playing coy.

    I feel a bit like this site is over-run with the only sociopaths in the world. Well there are more of us. And we don't have to spend all day long quoting Brett Easton Ellis to "prove" what we are. What, is that the most important part of your banal life?
    Take it from one who has been detained. We can't all fuck around on internet fucking forums all day. Some of us have slightly more thrilling things to do.

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  108. Well you have fun with your sociopath label, and go do your thrilling things. You sure weren't shy about pulling your dick out and trying to measure up for no apparent reason.

    Well, since the anonymous diagnosed and detained sociopath says he might respect you, maybe he does. I could be wrong. Again. Stranger things have definitely happened.

    Still, I'd do some extensive research on the disorder before you take anything anyone here says seriously. Just make sure you're brutally honest with yourself. :)

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  109. Disney - I'm not denying it for a second. As I said, I've gone over this in my head. I accept fully that he might have played me, but I also think that there's some chance he might not have.
    He didn't treat me half as badly as he did some other women, and I know that I'm one of the few people he still respects. He has a close network of his family, and 5 or 6 close friends. That's it, really.
    I know I can never know, and whilst I don't trust what he says implicitly, I know him very well really - well, as well as I can.
    Yeah he could've played me, and he did explicitly play me when we were together, he was unspeakably cruel at times. But now we're not together, it's okay.
    I learned my lesson, I suppose. He probably learned his, too. ASPD and BPD are probably the most incompatible types. I don't know. I'm not denying it, and I'm not here to cause contention, I just thought I'd add my two cents.

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  110. Peter Pan - Thankyou. As it is, I still have my doubts. I wasn't saying "Oh, I know EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW about sociopaths" I was just saying "here is my experience, and I'm sure that the way I dealt with it was slightly smarter than giving him everything he wanted", but I see it's caused a bit of controversy, and I sort of wish I hadn't said anything.
    I have done lots of research; my ex was my friend before anything else, and he told me about his diagnosis, and that's why I researched it. I just wanted to try to understand him a little bit better.

    My ex was also diagnosed - he had a conduct disorder as a child or something, anyway he was diagnosed. He didn't like who he was at times, but only very brief times. He also suffers from dissociative fugues, so sometimes he has no idea at all who he is.

    But yeah, sorry to tread on any toes. I was really just offering up my opinion.

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  111. Well sorry if I kinda jumped down your throat. Old habits die hard. :)

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  112. When I said Disney I meant Peter Pan.

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  113. S&S

    'He didn't treat me half as badly ...";

    well i guess if you have bpd you must be some kind of rejection junkie? i dont now how that works, but you still hang out with someone like that is weird to me. what do you get out of it? affirmation youre worth shit? if that makes you tick, than you know how the game worked and you neednt me wondering about it. all you should need to wonder about ( if youre sane in my opinion) is what you really need/want out of life and the people in it and do a checkup on that once every now and then. youll be surprised.

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  114. S&S seems to be oozing the thing that is talked about in this thread and the original ME post.

    Please S&S Im feeling all bad for you. Why worry about what youre posting on here and how people respond to it. Take away from it what you think makes sense and dont if it doesnt.

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  115. And why would I be, Peter Pan? Go on, tell me more. I am enthralled with your words of inherent import. Please, continue to analyse me. I'll keep it in my little notebook and refer to it later when I feel I'm about to offend any of you little Batemans. Hey hey - this is NOT an exit.

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  116. Peter Pan was right father dearest ( that sounds pretty fucked up to start with), all you do is pull your dick out and try to measure up. Ok we get it, but this is just a blog, try to be someone in real life and just have a discussion here or at least be funny like PP is almost all the time.

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  117. There appears to be a lot of bad grammar on this site. Getting on one's high horse seems awfully redundant when one barely knows how to use a comma.
    And I heard you were all really intelligent.

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  118. Peter Pan said, “I've seen one truly amazing person do truly unspeakable things, revel in the glory of it in front of everyone, and have everyone laugh about it. Anyone else would probably have been beaten to death or turned over to the authorities. Everyone loved him.”

    Ok, you’ve peaked my curiosity. Tell me more about this cool cat, if you don’t mind.

    Disney:

    I don’t sound flexible because I’m being relatively honest in my comments here. For me flexibility means I can portray all kinds of people in my offline life. I can take on all kinds of beliefs and I can emote fairly well when I try. I can “play the verb”.

    Does the idea of companionship attract me? A little. Not much. That’s what I say about most of my honest feelings about human relationships.

    Why do I hold on to notions about a pending emotional inundation? It’s like this. I’m an atheist but I am also open, in a small way, to the idea that I’ve got it all wrong and gawd is real. Like I said, I don’t lose any sleep over it and I’m pretty confident that I’m right, but I’m not infallible. In the same way, I’m not holding on to the idea of being emotionless. I just like to be at least theoretically open minded to the possibilities. Who knows? I could be wrong about all of this stuff, on some level. I’m not attached to the labels.

    Which brings me to Father Dearest. All I can say is that a portion of your comment demonstrates the lunacy of “boasting” about being officially saddled with what to my mind is a pejorative label. It’s like being proud of being called ugly. Then there’s the little matter of sociopathy proper not actually being an official diagnosis. If you’d said that you had been diagnosed with psychopathy or ASPD, well then you’d be hitting on something valid. Otherwise it’s more of the same “I’m a sociopath (read ugly) and you aren’t so there!” Which, as always, is fine if that’s your game. Lastly, if you were incarcerated, well all that means is at some point you made a mistake. You were careless or you just didn't give a fuck, neither of which makes you an authority on anything other than how to go to jail.

    As always, I could be wrong Big Pimpin'. You be sure to let me know if I am.

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  119. I'm not going to waste my time trying to analyze an anonymous persona that's made a whopping 2 posts. A reply is a reply, nothing more. If you want to play games, fine, let's play games.

    Woohoo! My dick is bigger! So says me! There, now we're playing the same game. Do you feel better?

    Welcome to the Bateman family, Patrick.

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  120. Why is everything about the cock with you, PP? Are you some Puer Aeternus with an undescended bollock complex?

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  121. DB

    Your gawd parrallel doesnt make sense. You never had clear manifestation of God in you life, which is why you should be an atheist ( you actually meant to say agnostic, if you are open to the idea), however you do have proof that you never felt anything the way you see others do, so you have no reason at this point to believe you ever will. You can be open to it, but it should be a MAJOR miracle to you. If you are being logical.

    Im rather curious about not really being into sex. Were you ever into sex more? I wonder what that lack of lust for feels like. Or doesnt feel like.

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  122. PP is only about cock Father Dearest because as a true sociopath he is only mirroring the fact youre actually all about cock.

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  123. Oh yeah, silly me. I love cock. I hope they crown PP as king some day. I'd have his regal cock, too, and his father's.

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  124. Oh how I love you, father dearest.
    Please stay. :)

    I love where this is going. Unfortunately, I don't particularly like these participating in these games unless they're of my own design, so I must unfortunately resign. You just can't beat an anonymous at bullshit.

    You have fun though, ya hear?

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  125. father dearest, you seem to be not only into cock but also into fathers. i think you have come to the wrong site..

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  126. Well actually I did have some religious experiences. Very vivid ones. Once upon a time, in a far away land, I was once a true believer. I could talk myself into experiencing almost any kind of so called spiritual event. That’s one of the reasons why I’m so skeptical of it now. And yes, I meant atheist. There’s a distinction to be made between what’s called weak atheism and strong atheism. I’m a weak atheist. (Someone surely is going to make a joke about me saying I’m weak, right?) The agnostic says that he’s on the fence. I’m not on the fence; it’s just that I’m not desperately clinging to my side of the fence either. It’s the difference between saying I don’t believe in god (weak atheism) or I know there is no god (strong atheism) or maybe there is, maybe there isn’t (agnosticism). Even more distinctions can be made, as you can imagine, but eh, who cares?

    And since this is certainly not something worth bandying back and forth indefinitely, let’s just say that I’m open to the possibility, however small, that I might be drowned under a tidal wave of emotion one day, but that I’m not exactly holding my breath, and leave it that.

    Sex feels great of course, but otherwise, I’m fine without it. For me it’s like having a great steak. I had a perfect steak a few months back. But that doesn’t mean I need to have more of it every chance I get. I’m content without it. All of this is probably connected to my emotional buttons being turned down compared to the greater population. This is what I mean when I say I’m a chilly soul.

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  127. DB

    Give me the logic, the arguments, behind the idea of being able to imagine it might happen some day; the end of your chilly soul? What could make that happen? Im open minded but I cant think of anything.

    This is not meant to sound weird, but how do you feel generally about being touched? Just wondering. Do you get more into it when you drink, since that happens to be the case for most people.

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  128. Disney:

    We’re going to go ahead and move on from the emotion thing. It’s purely hypothetical and nothing more.

    Now, you ask about my thoughts on being touched… Actually I enjoy it, when I have been. It always feels good. As to drinking, although I drink occasionally, getting drunk is something I never do. For one thing, as you can imagine, losing control isn’t my idea of a great time. For another, I just never get around to it.

    Why do I often get the impression when we’re having one of our discussions that you think of me as a lab specimen? :-)

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  129. DB

    You could never be my lab specimen DB, youre too in control;)

    Do your ever get hungry for touch?

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  130. Disney:

    Are you the opposite? Are you the free spirit, highly sexual, lusty type yourself?

    No, I don't hunger for touch. Don't get me wrong. I've always enjoyed blow jobs, for instance. But do I hunger them? Do I need them? Not so much. Does that make me weird? ;-)

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  131. DB

    I didnt specifically mean a sexual touch, but I guess your answer says something in that sense too. For instance if your mother would give you a hug, or a good friend, male for all I care, would you ever be hungry for that?

    No Im not the opposite. Or maybe the way you describe it doesnt sound like me; Im not exactly a hippy.

    But yes I do get touch hungry to stay in my terms. Sex is always the ultimate ofcourse but that hunger can be fixed in many ways on multiple levels in my experience.

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  132. DB

    And btw no i dont think that is weird. Nor do you.

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  133. Disney:

    Ok. I can see that. I don’t need that myself. Hugs, kisses, handshakes, pats on the back, rough housing, etc, all of that is something I’m fine with and without having. No hunger. I guess that’s the thing with me. Would it be nice to be with someone who got all of that about me and stayed nevertheless? Sure. It’s just that I don’t, to use your word, hunger for it.

    That weird comment was of course, a joke. Who’s weird? Who isn’t? Who’s a “real sociopath” and who’s a wannabe? Who gives a damn in the end?

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  134. DB

    I think you may have mentioned this before, but what made you enlightened about your situation? What changed because of it?

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  135. I am having so much fun.
    Of course - yes, you are all so perceptive and marvelous. Yes, this is adding some frivolity into my day. Perhaps I should come here more often.
    I love how ambiguity surrounding my name plus some throwaway and clearly vulgar comments have come to mean that I am a gay father-fucker. Oh, you have no idea.

    Just to add my opinion into this "sociopath wannabe" discussion - who the fuck would want to be a sociopath? Yeah there are "perks", I suppose - but I fucking hate these "I'm so dangerous" types. Get the fuck over yourselves. If you feel guilty about it, you're not a sociopath. That's it. It's that easy.

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  136. Disney said, “I think you may have mentioned this before, but what made you enlightened about your situation?”

    How did I figure out this is what I felt? Is that what you mean? I’ll assume it is and say it’s because I stopped examining my innards using the wrong conceptual tools for one thing.

    “What changed because of it?”

    I’ve been making changes in my offline life. I’m kinda like the reader ME featured in his series of posts about “his story” in the sense that not trying to figure myself out by standards that don’t make sense for someone like me has freed me up to not only understand myself as I actually am, but just as importantly, to begin to order the world around me in a way that meets my needs.

    Tell me Disney, have you ever had to do this, to change things in your life in light of seeing yourself more clearly?

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  137. DB

    Absolutely.

    What changes did you make for instance? What are your needs? ( I dont mean you have to get all detailed and personal, but a better notion of what youre talking about)

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  138. Also - I call myself Father Dearest because I became a father about a year ago, and also because my father was a diagnosed psychopath years ago. Another thing - I'm not proud of being like this. I just made clear that I had been diagnosed because I hate those pricks who think it's something to be proud of, who read the Hare's Psychopathy Checklist and go "Ooh! That's me!".
    I suppose I just wanted to make a point. I like to be right about things. I like to put people straight, and if we're being honest, I fucking love girls with BPD. So vulnerable, so needy, so insane, so hysterical.
    I'm new to this site; and I joke about being detained - I'm not proud of that either. I just want to get the fuck out of here to be honest. I'm clever enough to know HOW to get out of course, I just bide my time.

    Keep up the good work, ME. I would say we need more sociopaths in this world, but we don't. We have just enough. I don't know anything different, and I've carried this around like a burden all of my life. It gives me a certain feeling of superiority to be inside this place - to know that there's nothing to be ashamed of, that the only reason they place this "ugly" label onto people is through fear. Does anyone else think that?

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  139. father dearest,

    what insights do you have to offer here? for instance what burdens you?

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  140. Disney,
    I originally came here through some idle googling, honestly. I am what I am, and I've always flitted between caring about it, and not caring about it. Even when I've cared about "what I am", I've found it impossible to truly care, only to project what I think is right, or acceptable.
    The reason why the "my ex-boyfriend was a sociopath, and..." irked a response was because one of the things that burdens me is how I respond to love (sometimes I'm loathe to even type the word). It's relationships that bother me, it's my sexuality, my interactions with others that truly bother me - at least, it's what bothers me right now. Lots of things bother me, I have lots of problems with the world.
    I have a small, intimate group of around 4 close friends, one of whom is female - and my ex-girlfriend. I have always respected her, because she's very bright, and she never accepts what is dealt to her. When she became my "girlfriend", as such, I started to really dislike her, in fact I took it upon myself to test her. I never felt the urge before we were dating. Things were fine until she told me she loved me, and I was just incredibly angry with her. Precisely, how dare she? What was her fucking game? I've never reacted quite so in a relationship before, this was a strange thing for me.
    I could have been like her - I could have sat at home and ruminated over the finer details, and gone over the conversations until I found an answer, but I didn't - because I don't. We broke up. That was it. That is still it. I don't carry around any regrets but she does. I don't know why. I really don't. She described me as "unspeakably cruel" during our relationship, and if that's how she wants to put it then that's probably true.
    The point I'm getting to is my main burden - relationships. I like being in a relationship, and I especially liked that one. If that's what "in love" is, then I was greedy and selfish. I wanted her completely. I wanted all of her, nobody else could have any. Whenever I made love to her, I felt like I wanted herself to become myself - but nobody seems to understand what I mean by this.
    I am attractive, I know this. Physically, women and men alike find me desirable. Once they get to know me, they seem to like that too. I know this, so I let them come close. And then I destroy them. And I take great pleasure in this. I have yet to find what the problem in that is.
    Another burden is that of my perception of other human beings. I walk around not feeling part of them. I'm sure everyone here knows what this feels like - I feel sometimes like I am in a film like The Wizard of Oz - everything is in glorious technicolour but seems surreal to me. I can't connect to any of it. I don't know where I fit into this human race, thing. This doesn't depress me, I don't get depressed. I have a strange longing for it, really. But not depression.
    Finally - treatment. I don't believe it exists. I don't want to get too far into this, but I'm being treated at a hospital right now, for a few errors, we'll put it that way. And they are insisting they treat me with psychotherapy and drugs. Everybody knows they don't work (oh but according to my doctor I am doing very well - because they don't understand my skills of emulation, clearly. I am convinced I am being treated by idiots). I am being given antipsychotics, too, to control anger.
    Usually I wouldn't allow myself to be locked away. I never have been before, but this was different. A friend turned on me.
    I feel this concept of treatment is nothing more than fear. They are scared of people like me, you, whatever. We're just too far advanced, I think. I needn't go too far into this theory because you all know it. I'm just fucking angry that I'm in this situation to begin with. Not the situation of sociopathy, but the situation of detainment.

    This post has been rambling.It is late, and I am under sedation, but I am happy to have been forwarded to this site.
    By tomorrow I'll have found something more succinct to say. I'm incensed at how much I have wittered here.

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  141. father dearest

    what finished that relationship you actually wanted to keep going? what did you want from her really. what is your biggest problem with the world. could you even put in into words or are you just frustrated.

    there are a few classic books on sociopathy/psychopathy that would bring you some insight. i would suggest reading them.

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  142. I didn't want to take it any further. I wasn't scared, I just had an instinct that it had to end. It was certainly not an act of altruism, I just didn't want to date her any more. What i ultimately wanted was to prove a point. She was dating another man who was very abusive towards her, so I kind of saw her as fair game. I wanted her, and I wasn't going to abuse her, so she was mine, so I made her mine. After I had her, I asked her to move in with me which she did (another woman who did anything I asked - that was part of it. I lost respect for her.) and I spent those grand three days of commonlaw marriage just tormenting her. I wanted to take her as far as possible. And then she tried to push me, so I just pushed her further. And then she told me I broke her heart, and then I just didn't want her any more. I wasn't sad, I was just uninterested. Now we're apart, and she's with someone else, I'm doing everything I can to not seduce her. It's hard though. I know she'd resist. She always did, she always would. She used to date my best friend, too, before he died.
    My biggest problem in the world is other people. Hell, as they say, is other people. I couldn't stand to be alone, so my biggest problem is kind of my vice.
    There are too many things, yeah I am frustrated. I have a fuzzy head, I'm all drugged up.
    They've trapped me, sure, but when I come out I'm just going to be better, and wiser, and stronger.

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  143. Disney:

    Like what? What did you change as a result of a new understanding of yourself?

    As for me, without going into detail, I’m going to add order to some areas in my life that I’ve allowed to become disordered for one thing. For another thing, very soon now I intend on taking an extended vacation of sorts. I’ve been told that it’s good for the soul. Daniel Birdick will at last disappear, and not a moment too soon, eh? Finally, as I hinted earlier, I have a sense of what role I might wish to play down the road, one that will pique my interest in game playing and could even prove financially remunerative if I play my cards right.

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  144. Comment by FD: "Whenever I made love to her, I felt like I wanted herself to become myself - but nobody seems to understand what I mean by this."

    Strange...by ex used to say this about me and it always felt like he wanted to suck the soul from me when we made love. Like making love with a vampire.

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  145. Really, Daniel?

    Honestly, these comments are going to turn to shit without you here.

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  146. Father Dearest:

    Interesting stuff you write. I made the comment I made earlier because for one thing, a diagnosis that springs from talk therapy can sometimes be… dubious. Especially if that diagnosis is actually, literally sociopathy. For another thing, it’s not officially recognized by “authoritative” organizations like the APA. One might even be a little suspicious of the label psychopath. Granted, while not an official DSM-IV diagnosis either, psychopathy has some research connected with it, along with a widespread use of Hare’s work. Still, it does seem a bit… I don't know... odd to base one’s entire understanding of himself on what amounts to a questionnaire, right? Finally, I’m starting to suspect that personality disorder diagnoses have more to do with society protecting itself by creating these constructs to box people in and manage their behavior and less to do with actually “helping” the person saddled with the diagnosis. In other words, I think you’re probably right to bring up fear as one possible motivation behind this kind of thing. It's more about containment and less about assistance. But I don’t know the circumstances under which your diagnosis was rendered, so there you go. As long as you’ve got it figured out, who cares?

    I can’t comment on the other stuff because it’s beyond me. But I do know all about the importance of respect. It’s key. The moment I stop respecting a person is the moment they become just one more character on the stage. “All the world’s a stage and the men and women merely players…”

    If you don't mine me asking, how old are you?

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  147. Father Dearest, aren't you worried that your connection to the internet is monitored? You pretty much admitted to faking therapy.

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  148. Daniel Birdick: I know what you mean. I went through a long time in my life thinking I was autistic or something, and I've always tried to avoid believing the diagnosis I was given. For years I've heard various exes or acquaintances say "I just don't understand what is WRONG with you" or "Don't you even have a soul?!". A girl wrote a song about me claiming I didn't have a heart. She's written quite a few at this point, she can write what she likes,I know she's still singing about me because she's still thinking about me. It doesn't take a genius to work that out, so if she really wants to piss me off then why is she singing songs to me all the time, from any corner of the country?
    I also know what you mean about basing one's personality on a questionnaire. I have the assessments sort of once a year, it used to be less but if there's any sort of relapse then they increase it slightly. I'm one of the unlucky ones that got caught in the net a few years ago and now have my every movement commented on by therapists and doctors. My last therapist hated me, because I found it awfully fun to psychoanalyse her instead. Maybe I touched on a few things she found too sensitive.
    I do sometimes wonder about the integrity of PD diagnoses - those with BPD, for example (this one crops up so much because I don't really know anyone with a different PD that isn't ASPD) - from what I know, people with BPD are also incredibly self-destructive, and can also do things with seemingly no regard for another's feelings. The difference is, they will ruminate over this forever, and turn a lot of hate inwardly onto themselves, whereas for me, if I do something that would apparently hurt another person (with no respect for that person), I've moved on after it's happened, it's gone. It's another prop in my life.
    Also - I'm 29. I turn 30 next year. I have a lot more insight now than I did when I was say, 24. This is why I respected the woman so much; she's known me all of that time and has seen every dark corner of my personality. This is another thing I dislike her for,

    PP - The internet is quite safe. Anonymous proxy and own computer. This place is run by idiots. It's the telephone I can't use, or written letters.

    Any more of you have children?

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  149. BizyLizy - For me, sex with someone when I consider it to be more love-making than fucking, is quite an intense experience for me. Slightly uncomfortable, but I do tend to feed off of her body's reaction, which all go to making me feel stronger and better, and I do generally feel like a vampire (that was a good word to use); that I want to feel physically and mentally rejuvinated by the whole experience, by having this person's "soul" inside of me, where mine should be.
    I've made it sound like I light candles and incense and make tender love to her. I can assure you this is not the case. It's a joy to have a woman who plays coy but has a wonderfully dark side.

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  150. Of course! Society fears the anti-social personality disordered person. And, of course, much effort has gone into how to retrain the anti-social personality to respect boundaries, the golden rule, the shared moral and ethical framework -- whatever you might want to call it. Societies which didn't work to protect themselves from those who are anti-society would have failed and disappeared.

    But psychiatrists and social workers also try to help these individuals through dysphoria and depression, using the same techniques they'd use on those who were not co-diagnosed ASPD. So I don't think it is true to say they aren't interested in "helping" those saddled with the condition (which is different than saying saddled with the diagnosis, to be sure, but that's a point of view).

    Of course, most psychiatrists and social workers would see an ethical problem with "helping" a conscience-free individual to develop skills necessary to achieve anti-social ends, although, apparantly, they often get sucked into doing it, like the fictional Dr. Melfi. Remember mer "My God, what have I done!?" moment when she finally realizes that, rather than helping Tony to reflect on his actions, and engage his conscience, she has helped him to become more manipulative and dangerous?

    -- lurker

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  151. Ha yes, "My God, what have I done?!". Sounds like something from Jekyll and Hyde, too.
    I don't know. I think about this most of the day, I'm kind of being forced to right now. I think it's incredibly unfair to label someone as "sociopath". It's like you've told them "You are everything a human being should not be. You are disgusting, and horrible, and dangerous". I'm not. I'm amoral, sure, but that doesn't mean I intentionally go out to hurt people.
    My father was a psychopath and not a pleasant man at all. He did some things in his life that I would never dream of doing, but not because I know they are wrong - because I do not have the same impulses as him. I can only be glad of that.
    I understand they are trying to "help" sociopaths / ASPDs / whatever, but in philosophical moments I question the motive behind treating a personality disorder. Who is being treated, the sociopath, or everyone else?

    "Convenience devocalization (also known as debarking, bark softening, ventriculocordectomy and vocal cordectomy) is a controversial surgical procedure applied to dogs and cats, where tissue is removed from the animal’s vocal cords in order to permanently reduce the volume of their vocalizations."

    I read this today, god knows how I stumbled across it. I feel a bit like one of those dogs.

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  152. Peter Pan - I think I worded it wrong. When you said he might have still wanted something, entertainment perhaps, I didn't take entertainment into account, because I don't see that as something I would go out of my way to get from someone, but then my mind works differently to that. Sure, I think a lot of it is entertainment.
    I have to ask - how do you feel the sociopath fares next to the byronic hero? Look at Heathcliff, why are we all so in love with him? What is it about a sociopath that makes women fall in love, knowing we're going to get hurt? I remember my ex saying something to me like "If you stay with me, it's going to be hard on you." and I just thought yeah, well, I'm ready for it. I did get hurt, amazingly, and I don't know why I stayed. It's like a double-bluff. I don't see the point of the game in the first place. I'm not criticising, I'm just being curious. What is it about a relationship that a sociopath finds entertaining?

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  153. Storm and Stress my darling, every woman adores a fascist.
    Isn't it exciting, though? Don't you miss that, all of that excitement? Is that why you're here, really?

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  154. Is that what you think, FD? It's just excitement?

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  155. I think when a woman has a relationship with a sociopath, and still speaks to him, and still cares about him on some level, then she probably wants the entertainment just as much as he does, she's just not as aware of it. Maybe she's a coward, or a fool. I don't know. I say, stop your complaining about this mystery sociopath ex-lover. He sounds great to me. I'll bet whenever you look back on that relationship you do so with a fond smile.

    Also - yes, some women are more into the Mr. Darcy type - but some women are not, as you state. Those who love Heathcliff love a classic sociopath. Heathcliff kills animals for fun, breaks the heart of a young woman to prove a point and is inexplicably cruel to Catherine, despite the fact that he loves her. You probably know that. You've probably read the book a thousand times, my dear.

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  156. I think you're wrong, FD.

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  157. Storm and Stress - if I may - have you read The Picture of Dorian Gray? Did you just love it?

    Being a woman in her twenties with this much baggage sure is tough, huh? ;)

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  158. What does it matter who is being treated? Who cares if they're trying to cripple you against your will? Morals and ethics be damned, right? There's no such thing. Hey, I guess that means hypocrisy is OK, too. I say go for it. If all else fails, I say we strap you in the chair, flip the switch, and laugh at how you were so weak that you got yourself into the predicament.

    Psychopathic thinking in action, baby.
    No need to treat it.
    It's fan-fucking-tastic!

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  159. I never told you of my age, and I don't think it takes a genius to link two key books of the romantic period with similar protagonists.

    I think it's quite risible that you're just going on and guessing so much about me. Does it make you feel awesome? Is this part of your "thrilling things to do"?

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  160. I never told you of my age, and I don't think it takes a genius to link two key books of the romantic period with similar protagonists.

    I think it's quite risible that you're just going on and guessing so much about me. Does it make you feel awesome? Is this part of your "thrilling things to do"?

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  161. Fine, if you want to carry on doing this, S&S, then we'll carry on.

    You sound like you could be an English Literature student to me. And you didn't deny your age. So, so far we can surmise:

    You're in your twenties, probably
    You study English Literature, probably
    You love Wuthering Heights, probably,
    You love Dorian Gray, probably,
    You once dated a sociopath,
    You have BPD.

    Gosh, what else could I extrapolate? Hey, I know. What do you think of The Smiths? You've probably got dark hair, too. A girl like you I just can't see as a blonde or a redhead or anything...

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  162. I'm blonde.

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  163. Really? You sure you're not just picking the most innocuous lie possible in order to make me feel like I've gotten something wrong, because you are "intrigued" and "fascinated" by my type?

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  164. S&S, let me guess, you live at 1001 N Central AVE in Denver, Colorado. I just couldn't see you living anywhere else...

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  165. FD
    I think you overlook the fact that I dont expect sociopaths to act like fascists to enter a woman's heart? I think they would more likely act like, well, exactly what the woman craves for? Youre projecting the fact you are high energy high whatever and thus attract borderliners and so forth? who, which normal ok trusting indiviual takes someone serious in the first place who says 'things will get rough', when so far its been like heaven ( I exaggerate to make a point). Please enlighten me.

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  166. She's got to be English. It's about half 4 in England. She's one of those classically English girls.

    What on earth have you let yourself in for, dear?

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  167. I thought Dorian Gray was laughable and obnoxious and a bore. I love the easy going Mr Darcy though. Smart, thought through and chill and hot.

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  168. FD:

    Nope, I’m nobody’s father, although I was a stepfather for a few years to 2 small children. Are you concerned that your child is going to have your unique brand of character qualities, since you mention your father being diagnosed as a psychopath, along with yourself? Or, as the stereotype goes, do you not give a damn? Obviously, there’ll be no judgment here either way.

    I love this “you don’t have a soul” thing. No one’s ever accused me of being soulless, just cold and arrogant, and that only a few times. Even I can’t win ‘em all. But still, soulless… I wonder if the people like this girl of yours even believes in souls, or if that’s just a euphemism.

    As to psychiatric diagnosis, I don’t want to suggest that I think they’re all useless. Schizophrenia is a good example of a diagnostic label that’s based on a person’s clearly being out of touch with reality, and because of that, could be a danger not just to society but to himself. But some of these Axis II personality disorders though… I mean, when did shy become schizoid or when did self centered idiot become narcissistic in the clinical sense? I’m generalizing I know and I’m aware that some of these people “afflicted” with so called personality disorders do in fact suffer from their “illness”. Still, I feel confident in saying that if a number of random psychologists read thru all of my comments here, a good portion of them would have no problem diagnosing me with some kind of disorder. They’d have several to choose from: schizoid, narcissistic, and yes, even psychopath (see Dr. Robert’s site for that lovely little exchange.) Whichever one they chose, they’d be quite sincere in wanting to “help” me socialize, i.e., be normal. I’m with you when it comes to being skeptical about all of this. I understand that it is in their interest to protect themselves, but whether they understand it or not, it is in my best interest to protect myself, to preserve some of what I see, with good reason, as strengths. I have zero desire to actually, truly be moral. Your quote about devocalization perfectly illustrates all of this, btw. It gave me my first LOL moment of the morning.

    Your story is interesting. As you’ve surmised, we don’t get a lot of people who’ve been in prison or in a mental health facility because of these traits. We got one who said he’d been to jail a few times. As far as I know, you’re the only one who has said he is in an mental health facility. When do you plan on getting out and what do you intend to do to make sure you’re never in that position again?

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  169. I swear I right away thought she was blonde. Im so telepathic its crazy. FD I think youre covered in tattoos. Hehe.

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  170. Disney,
    The "every woman adores a fascist" line was not meant to be taken altogether seriously, it was a Sylvia Plath line.
    When I first meet a woman, there is barely any "front" of which to speak, at least, no special one that I have reserved for women.
    I think I would only ever warn a woman if I felt like it was getting quite serious. I wouldn't say to her outright - this is going to get rough - but if I had developed a respect for her, I would see it as fair to let her know that I'm not some wonderful, nice man. I'd rather do that than just let her find out.
    She made a point about Heathcliff, which I found interesting, and why I quoted the thing about fascists. Women do fall in for sociopathic men, oftren a woman will criticise the man for being the same person he was when she fell in love with him. It's an interesting point.

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  171. FD:

    Your description of sex sounds exactly like my ex. I always thought the Nine Inch Nails song "Closer" described what it was like being with my ex. Intense, passionate, and degrading.

    Problem is, while intense and passionate in the beginning, once the sociopath has used you up and sucked the life from you, you are essentially yesterday's garbage. Sex becomes more and more degrading and objectified. I assume any self respecting woman would cut the sociopath loose at this point. Honestly, probably never get involved to begin with.

    I think ME also describes similar feelings of wanting to enhale and absorb a person via a kiss in her/his "can a sociopath love?" post.

    Also FD I notice that you contradict yourself several times with regard to your ex. You maintain that you respect her because she didn't always put up with your shit and yet she's stuck around despite knowing you inside and out. And yet you've also said several times that you did not respect her because she loved you.

    Why does the sociopath tend to bite the hand that ultimately feeds him? You want love/companionship/relationship. You don't. You have it. And you destroy it. You lust for it. You consume it and then despise it.

    I just don't understand.

    And yes. I just had a baby girl with the ex. Zero contact with her. Zero contamination.

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  172. DB - I have about another month or so left in here, and I'm looking forward to getting out. Part of the reason I was put in was because of something I did. I don't want to go into detail in case anyone I know lurks around on here trying to find things out for their own gain - all I will say, is that it really wasn't that bad, I'm not incredibly like that. I would have avoided this, but as I said - a "friend" turned on me.
    Of course I know that to avoid getting in here, I need to be careful, and I do understand that impulse control is now important (because now it's important to me aswell as other people, and that's why I care now).
    Yeah I asked about kids because I am concerned a little for my son. I want him to grow up with some idealistic image of me as a father; when people tell him what a cunt they think I am, I want him to completely not believe them, in any way. I want him to think that there'd be no reason to believe it. I think that if, in his formative years, he doesn't see me in all of my sociopathic glory, then he won't learn that behaviour. But it might be genetic - I don't know how personality disorders work.
    I understand what you mean about the instability of diagnosis. Once you're caught in the mental health system, they'll diagnose you once a week. So far, I've been a malignent narcissist, a depressive, a psychosis sufferer, a dissocial personality, an antisocial personality, an axiety sufferer. This one, most stigmatised diagnosis that I am clinically unpleasant is the only one that's stuck, through countless tests and assessments.
    I really don't belong in a facility, either. There's one ASPD in here, and everyone else is some sort of schizo something, or depressive something, or dissociative something. It's all very strange - there is no treatment, really. The only person who can treat my personality is myself, I believe.

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  173. Where did Storm and Stress go? I was having so much fun!

    BL - You're right, I do contradict myself a lot. I do this a lot, in life, with a lot of different things. Love is the most confusing for me, I don't understand it fully. You're right, I respect the woman but at the same time I don't. I sometimes wonder that I love her, but at the same time I dislike her. It was as soon as I loved her that I disliked her. She had contaminated me, to use your word. I respect her more, now. I also want her more than anything, because she isn't mine. If she became mine again, I see the cycle would continue. It's this continuum that I can't stand.

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  174. Father Dearest said, "Women do fall in for sociopathic men, oftren a woman will criticise the man for being the same person he was when she fell in love with him. It's an interesting point."

    Men with who are said to have one or more of the so called dark triad traits (narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy) are said to have a more prolific sex life according to New Scientist:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926650.800-survival-of-the-nastiest.html

    Of course, we could also ask if a scientific study was really needed to confirm something as obvious as this. Eh, I guess so. So called common wisdom isn't always right.

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  175. FD
    In what way do you think of your son? Apart from thoughts about how you want him to view you?

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  176. Disney -

    I care for my son. I really, really do. I'm protective over him, but I don't understand him. Having him threw me into an existential crisis.It was a mistake, of course.

    It is hard for me to understand that he came from me, sometimes I can't connect us both as people, and it is then that I feel some of the care slip away, and he is just a baby. I can't say there's any strong father-son bond, but I don't dislike the boy. I am looking forward to watching him grow up. I just truly hope he escapes this inherent sociopath gene.

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  177. There you go, Storm and Stress. Science has proven that you love a bastard. ;)

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  178. FD, why have you singled me out like this?

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  179. S&S - There's something so addictive about it, I don't know. You are just so darn reminiscent of someone I already know, do you know that? It's almost like YOU ARE HER.

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  180. FD You need to get over your ex. You're clearly insane.

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  181. FD:

    Excellent. You’re right on track then. Who says people in this neck of the personality trait woods can’t take responsibility for themselves and their lives? I’m so glad you said that thing about you being the only person in the world can “treat” yourself, because it is true. That’s also true of normals. Few people really seem to get this though.

    Wrt your son, the evidence appears to lean toward the direction which states that personality traits are genetically inherited. Where environment comes into play (and by environment I mean the total “atmosphere” a child has to navigate and not just the home), is that it can shape how those traits are played out later in life. In other words, say kid A is genetically predisposed to introversion. There’s nothing that can be done about that at this time. But his total environment will shape how it manifests, whether he becomes socially adept despite his innate introversion or instead retreats from society as best he can. I’m an introvert but I have no problem with mixing it up with people in my offline world, for instance. So the odds are decent (without knowing a thing about your son’s mother) that he may indeed inherit some of your more antisocial traits. But that doesn’t mean it is foreordained that he will end up in jail or a mental hospital either. That part is up to you and your son’s mother, how you raise him, what you allow him access to, which neighborhood he grows up in, his socio-economic status, the schools he attends, his nutritional needs being met and so on.

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  182. S&S Why do you even need to call him insane is what totally fascinates me. He belongs to say 2 % of the population that is a high strung sociopath ( no offense FD), so obviously he strongly deviates from the rest and is thus in that sense very much abnormal. Why be surprised? I think a curious attitude instead of a judging one is the best way to go. Although sometimes judging does feel good I must admit.

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  183. Disney:

    Yup. It’s scientifically suspect of course, but still, it’s fun and interesting. I’m an INTX, which I take to mean INTP-INTJ depending on when you catch me and which version of the test you take. What’s your type love?

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  184. INTJ

    I loved finding it out. Im now devouring all the material on that matter.

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  185. DB

    i must say though that INTJ women are very very rare and its quite the challenge. INTJ men are better understood cause it fits the male character better.

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  186. I meant to say male character stereoptype.

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  187. The INT* category is a minority for both genders from what I remember reading, although I can see how it might be even more rare for women than men. Have you visited any of the personality type forums online? Also, did this info change your view of yourself?

    How old are you, btw? I don’t know why, but I find ages a curious thing. It tells me a little about a person’s potential insight levels.

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  188. DB

    Im in my twenties lets leave it at that.
    Nope never visited any of those forums. I did order a bunch of book on the types and I do find it insightful to an extent. the funny thing is I should be looking into other types too but I guess I get too INTJ and just focus on reading on INTJ...

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  189. Disney:

    When I visit other forums on the subject of psycho/sociopathy, I invariably run into the question “Am I a sociopath?” I click the link and start reading. As soon as my eyes see the words “I am 17 (or 18 or 20)” I stop reading and move on. I’ve come to the opinion that most people under 25 don’t know themselves yet. Of course, you might be the exception because there are always exceptions to every so called rule. Still, I think my generalization holds water for most. Hell, many people over 55 are equally clueless. I also forgot that it isn’t polite to ask a lady her age. Then again we’re on a blog called Sociopathworld, so…

    Did you take an online test or did you flip thru one of the books, read the descriptions and figured INTJ was the best fit?

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  190. In what ways has your journey of self-discovery helped you sharpen up skills you might use in the future?

    In these highly stylized interactions, I've come to understand that some people are just very different from everyone I've ever come to know.

    I'm connecting some things a little differently. Do you think Hare pictured Heathcliff when he developed the PCL?

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  191. i think the sociopath and codependent are good. they fill each hole in the other one. that is what relationship is about.

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  192. Lurker, I'm assuming you're asking FD that question...

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  193. http://tinyurl.com/5xzy25

    this how i know i am human.

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  194. Actually, anyone who is interested in answering.

    --lurker

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  195. Only because I feel he might be getting a little personal, which is making me feel uncomfortable. I don't know why he wants to do it, or what he can gain from it. I obviously am curious, but I don't like seeing people as oddities or curiosities. I'm not a ghoul, it doesn't feel right to me.

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  196. DB

    i went to an official accredited person (the mbti organization takes that very seriously) who did the test and interview and such on me. you get an 'official' document stating thats what you are with the test results. it doesnt have a point, but i guess they wanna give you something tangible.

    Im between 25 and 30 for christ sakes. im of the opinion that age rarely ever is an indicator of anything.

    i imagine you took an online test. which is hardly a basis.

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