Sunday, September 21, 2014

No hierarchy of humanity

This was an interesting excerpt from Charles Blow's memoir featured in the NY Times about coming to terms with his identity, specifically his bisexuality. It also has an interesting story about how to deal with victimhood (he was sexually abused by a cousin, upon which he wisely remarked, "I had to stop hating Chester to start loving myself. Forgiveness was freedom. I simply had to let go of my past so that I could step into my future." He also makes an interesting argument:

Yes, the mark that Chester’s betrayal had left on my life was likely to be permanent, but blaming him for the whole of the difference in my emerging sense of sexual identity, while convenient, was most likely not completely accurate. Abusers don’t necessarily make children different, but rather, they are diabolically gifted at detecting difference, often before the child can see it in him or herself. It is possible that Chester glimpsed a light in me, and that moved the darkness in him.

The explanation for the strong correlation between childhood abuse and non-heterosexual orientations is that child abuses go after kids who they sense are sexually open? I would like to see some stats on that, because that's the first I have heard of this specific argument. But I feel like this general type of argument is common for victims of child abuse to make. It seems almost too depressing to admit that your sense of "difference" from others all stems from you being a child victim. We would like the world to make a little more sense and be a little less haphazard than that. I certainly have made similar arguments about my own childhood -- that I wasn't made to be this way by what I happened to have experienced in formative years, or at least that I already was predisposed this way. But of course I freely admit that if I hadn't had those formative experiences, I wouldn't be who I am today (whatever else I might look like).

But I also thought his discussion of self-discovery and trying to find an identity in a world that wants to shoehorn and pidgeonhole us into their expectations of what we are or who we should be was interesting.

My world had told me that there was nothing worse than not being all of one way, that any other way was the same as being dead, but my world had lied. I was very much alive. There was no hierarchy of humanity. There was no one way to be, or even two, but many. 
I had done what the world had signaled I must: hidden the thorn in my flesh, held “the demon” at bay, kept the covenant, borne the weight of my crooked cross. But concealment makes the soul a swamp. Confession is how you drain it.

DARING to step into oneself is the bravest, strangest, most natural, most terrifying thing a person can do, because when you cease to wrap yourself in artifice you are naked, and when you are naked you are vulnerable.

But vulnerability is the leading edge of truth. Being willing to sacrifice a false life is the only way to live a true one.

I love that first part "There was no hierarchy of humanity." Except as true as it is, almost no one actually believes that, unfortunately.


  1. As a tween/teen mall rat in 1980's Southern California, I had the interesting experience of being accosted by gay men on a couple of occasions. It's not the majority view, but I never felt victimized for it because I did nothing and told them to scram. However, people have said, "how horrible for you" and other well intentioned comments that indicated to me that they really didn't understand how I felt about it.

    Being that I "took ownership" of my life at a fairly early age (let's say chaotic upbringing, but I'm not entirely bought into that...), I'm fairly sure that I came across as interesting because I wouldn't likely say anything to anyone (i.e. feral child, more or less) but they were usually quickly dissuaded (one guy had to be given some pretty clear directions and options...he chose wisely...).

    Being as I turned out to be a poor target, nothing happened.

    I think that these guys are predators without question and they will look for the easiest prey - as a kid that looked like he didn't have a lot of places to be, I can see why they took a run at me. A kid that is amenable (i.e. gay or bi) would be prize hunting. However, sometimes you "kill" what you can catch, which is more likely to be kids that are anxious/afraid/timid/etc.

    I have to think a bit more about the rest of it...

    1. pffft. ok, um - for real? like for real for real?

      ok so as a gay guy who also grew up in so cal in the 80's amidst mall-rat culture (though i'd call it valley girl culture or something not as hesher-esque) - whoever these beasts you claim tried to solicit your wannabe gutter punk tween-age self PROBABLY WEREN'T GAY. YES, CAPS. SCREAMING, LIKE THE QUEEN I AM. or wait, unless you worked at Orange Julius too...?
      and as a FAGGOT TEEN of same aforementioned time and place, i'd also like to add that when i did go out and cruise, if i were to act anxious/afraid/timid/etc, um, - wait i fell asleep, what? anyway, outraged.
      GAY and PREDATOR/PERVERT, stop interchanging these terms, please.

    2. Anon, speaking to the hierarchy of humanity your point "GAY and PREDATOR/PERVERT, stop interchanging these terms" is well taken.

    3. Yo, thank you DocSciFi, i'm glad others interpreted hierarchy of humanity as extending beyond some "I'm-outside-the-box-because-i-stood-up-to-skeezy-dudes by letting them know my ass is strictly EXIT ONLY, instead of being a sissy queer victim, or you know, prize thats amenable." i drank a pot of coffee and am rushing to get a paper in on deadline, so i'm admittedly more intense right now than i am probably usually - but dear god the asinine ruminations of a douche bag bro, yawn.and so speaking to hierarchy of humanity - maybe there's some hierarchy actually?

    4. A couple of comments -

      First, I apologize for conflating gay men with child molesters. That wasn't fair and I should be more mindful and will try to be.

      I was trying to address the question of why gay/bi kids might be more at risk and how tween/teen boys might be particularly attractive to people who are attracted to younger folks.

      Again, I should have been more thoughtful with my words - for what it's worth, I'm not trying to be an asshole, it come naturally...I am a work in progress. :-)


    5. HL, it's good to see your straight up reply.

      You might be interested to know as well that the solid evidence is that most people who sexually abuse children or teens are not pedophiles either. They are however mostly male. It's easy enough to look up on google.

      Anon, can I call you QueenIAm, or something more personal than Anon?

      Your point "maybe there's some hierarchy actually?" is interesting. Yeah I think so.

    6. Thanks Doc - when I'm being an asshole, it's only right that I get called out on it. I do the same, so I expect and want to be told - sometimes, that's how I get the message.

      As to the whole hierarchy thing - I'm torn. I have a very hard time with the idea that anyone is really any "better" than anyone else. We compete, to be sure, but does that really establish any sort of fixed hierarchy? However, within the context of an activity where a common goal is being sought, hierarchies emerge - how the group functions, it a whole different matter.

      But, does that really establish any sort of "absolute" hierarchy? I don't feel it or see it. It's all transitory.

      As I've heard more than once, "the ass you kick today might be the one you have to kiss tomorrow."

    7. I should also thank Anon for calling me out -

      *hat tip*

    8. HL,

      I'm also uncomfortable with judging people.

      Still, from the point of view of the evolution of society as a whole -- you have people like serial murders, serial sexual abusers of children, serial rapists who do great, irreparable harm to others, and on the other hand you have, for instance, people who devote a significant part of their life working for charities say in Africa, who make a real difference in the well-being of many people. Those are just 2 examples. It's hard for me to ignore this difference and not say that the latter are better for humanity as a whole than the former.

    9. @8:21
      You're a fucking idiot.

      You're a fucking idiot.

    10. Hi Doc, from that perspective, "doing good" = "being higher up the hierarchy". That view assumes that we all have the same idea of what "good" is.

      It may a "feature" of my personality type or a result of the "work" I've done, but, while I would never wish for my children to grow up in the chaos I grew up in, I also don't resent any of the people that made it chaotic and I don't wish it was different.

      For me they are all agents of change and sometimes change requires a degree of destructiveness to clear the way (e.g. forest fires). As a result of the chaos I was exposed to I find that I am able to at least be a source of comfort to some in ways that I wouldn't be able to be without those experiences. So, were those people really good or bad?

      Idunno - maybe I am talking myself into seeing what to original post was getting at: hanging onto a hierarchy of good/bad people/experiences anchors us to suffering (not healing). Letting go of those notions are necessary steps to moving past difficult experiences.

      Like I've said, I'm still noodling on this, so bring on the discussion! :-)

    11. HL, "That view assumes that we all have the same idea of what "good" is."

      well, actually, no it doesn't. I wasn't making a universal statement, but rather a statement about what looks like an unshakable belief that I have that some people are better than others because they have more humanity. This doesn't depend on anyone else agreeing.

    12. DoctorSciFi,
      "people who devote a significant part of their life working for charities say in Africa, who make a real difference in the well-being of many people."

      They are supporting the greatest threat to humanity: overpopulation.
      In practice, they are worse than a serial killer.

    13. Anon, since you are concerned about overpopulation, the generally agreed estimates are that world population is going to soon saturate at 10 billion. There's an entertaining TED talk on this at:

    14. So, within your value structure, some people are...better? Others...worse? Are these constant features of people, or do they shift in time? How do we keep score? I mean, I have good days and bad days (hell! started this thread out on the wrong foot... *cringe*)...

      I'm still not there -

      Ants in my house are INCREDIBLY annoying and I can't think of too many people that disagree with me. But I also know that the ecosystem would take a pretty big hit if we eradicated them all. For me, the better perspective is to see that the ant is just trying to make a living like the rest of us. It's easier to just not make my house attractive (i.e. keep the place clean).

      But they aren't good or bad, per se - just unwelcome agents of change.

    15. Hi HL,
      I wasn't talking about ants or forest fires, but about serial killers for instance vs people who devote themselves as best they can to serving others. I am not claiming this is or ought to be universal and as I said I don't give a hoot whether anyone else agrees. But it is also not as trivial as you make it. I do have a value system based on humanity of individuals. Is that so surprising?

    16. Hi Doc,

      I do not mean to trivialize - far from it. I think it's an important notion to think on. I think the difference in our views may be in your reply: "I...have a value system." It's yours - does that make it absolute?

      Stepping outside of myself to look at how I fit into some greater structure doesn't come naturally to me - it's something I've worked at to help manage my impulses. Taking the value neutral perspective has been very helpful to me for letting go and moving past unpleasant events (e.g. chaotic childhood).

      Letting go of the value judgments - of others and myself - and examining events around me (past and present; future is trickier) helps to keep me grounded (I am identifying as BPD - BIG feelings!) and to make more constructive choices (for myself and those I care about) and to not hang onto the unpleasant and self destructive feelings from those event..

      And I think that's what the author of the article was getting at.

      I too value surrounding myself with people that are more "constructive" and I try to put as much distance between destructive people and myself as I can. I try to take the view that serial killers (and the like) are sick and/or damaged people - after all, there does seem to be evidence for that. That doesn't mean that I'm running after them to "hug the evil out of them." Far from it - I recognize that they are dangerous in their actions (its not that different than how I view a friend with schizophrenia) and we have to understand and account for it.

      Again, I don't mean to come off as trivializing your perspective. I am fully aware that I view the world through my own lens, with all it's limitations. If there is an absolute hierarchy, I would like to see it and understand it.

    17. Hi HL,
      I agree with your pov that it's healthier, in terms of one's best interest, to take a non-judgemental stance, and indeed I don't particularly focus on judging people. It came up and you asked...

      On the other hand I have this unshakable belief... As I mentioned I don't view it as being universal, nor absolute, nor have I used the term evil, because that would presume knowledge that I don't have. It seems to me to be an inborn trait to tend to view people in a hierarchy and it doesn't matter in this view that serial murderers are sick or not. They are damaging to society -- that is all this is based on. It's closer to a darwinian view of survival of society than anything else I can think of.

      I don't see a big difference between what i am saying and your statement "I too value surrounding myself with people that are more "constructive"", would you leave a serial murderer to baby sit your children?

    18. Hi DocSciFi and HL,

      -QUeenie ANON here:
      first: HL, thanks for responding so thoughtfully. its appreciated.
      second: regarding a hierarchy of humankind, i think that, while we may individually have metrics by which we measure another humans potential value, ranking certain qualities, qualities that we see as adding value above others, and while we may also engage in this type of value assessment in a communally or as a group of humans who have come to a consensus about which qualities are more valuable than others, whatever metrics we choose to apply are necessarily judgments based on preference and therefore relative, and dangerous. if we can accept that a metric exists, however innocuous we may deem that metric is, the implication validates practices like eugenics, selective geneology and blah blah so on and so on.

    19. Anon, about "the implication validates practices like eugenics, selective geneology and blah blah so on and so on."

      I'd say it can but does not necessarily validate eugenics etc. It depends on what the whole context of a system of beliefs are. In my system of beliefs eugenics is never valid.

    20. " In my system of beliefs eugenics is never valid."

      Why not take control of our own evolution? I really see no problem with Eugenics.

    21. Them pesky gremlins again...

      Queenie: Thank you for being willing to let me make it right - we don't always get that chance. I appreciate that.

      Doc et. al.: Given the advances in genetics and the increasing ability for parents to be able to "tweak" what kids they end up with (the Movie Gattaca comes to mind as a dramatization of this), I might argue that we are already engaging in forms of eugenics that are socially sanctioned - though we are not all in agreement about it. ...and I am far from settled on it.

    22. Hi HLHaller,

      Your point is valid.

      I wasn't aware of the long standing debate on what is eugenics and what is not. I was referring to forced sterilization and the like.

      Some people include things like artificial insemination and selection of engineered embryos-- a 'consumer's' choice of which offspring to create and raise.

      The problem i have with that is that those who reproduce are biologically programmed to select fit mates -- that what women find for instance sexually attractive in males is strongly correlated to their genetic fitness and vice versa. If they are looking for intelligent children they will seek out intelligent partners... I don't see a big difference there. That's part and parcel of an innate sense of social hierarchy.

      Then there is sex selection and the now massively screwed up sex ratios in India and China... That's also called eugenics by some.

    23. Oh, I think it will get "better."

      I'm in the process is researching DNA analysis for genes of interest to me (mostly those associated with sociopathy, but not exclusively). The sorts of testing that is beginning to be available to the direct consumer (for not that much money either, but there are's not your data anymore...) analysis that is coming available is really kind of...erm...interesting.

      But think of this: I can now get tested for all sorts of traits and I can convince my partner to do the same. If we both screen for, say, cancers, not too many people would judge us harshly if we choose to not reproduce. Hell, Angelina Jolie went under the knife!!!

      However, lets remember that I'm posting here as a pipe hitting member of the tribe. It's not hard to imagine me rejecting someone (or even being rejected...but that would be crazy... *wink*) if I didn't like what I saw. Or, even making it a condition of a prenup -

      I can continue with all sorts of paranoid scenarios, but I think all ya'll can do just fine without me.

      I am of the view that Dr. Ventner and friends have let that genie out of the bottle. It will be interesting to see where it goes -

  2. How many sociopaths have had the phenomenon of thinking you were choosing to be callous, unemotional, scheming, manipulative, ruthless and just all-around-more-clever-than-everyone-else ..... until it hit you that people like you have your sorts of parents and the early childhood experiences that you had - and they wind up thinking, feeling and acting the antisocial ways you do?

    That was my experience. I didn't feel nearly so clever when I realized I hadn't chosen to be this way.

    1. Hi Anon 5:22PM

      This is a topic I am thinking on a fair amount these days since I have kids and I am watching them develop personalities.

      Now, to be clear, my wife and I are very deliberately choosing Attachment Parenting for our kids and as I learn more about these...personality types (and the genetics and epigenetics), I see that this really is the best chance for our "spawn." (I do enjoy that image - it makes me giggle).

      Yeah, I'm less impressed with myself when I view it with the lens of being labeled as a Borderline Personality. However, I am forming an idea that it's not my genes that are "bad/faulty" per se, but that they are "triggered" inappropriately (and I've taken a hard look at my folks and I'm inclined, as M.E. seems to be, to forgive and love them regardless).

      I try less to judge it and more understand it -

  3. good read & I get that. I certainly hope you are not comparing sociopathy & the desire to harm others to someone abused as children who grow up who suffer and at times due to the abuse.. two different things.

  4. Very complicated. I came from a very dysfunctional family. I am the oldest of five. I feared and hated my father as a child. My maternal aunt "semi-kidnapped me" when I was about four years old to live with her for about six months, telling me, "Your father ruined my sister; I am not going to let him ruin you." It is not easy to process information such as that at the age of 4-5. I am the oldest of 5. Bro B (#2) acted rather sociopathic at an early age but eventually turned into a decent person. Sis D (#3) was a victim of "statutory rape" at the age of 15 or 16, and impregnated by a friend of my father's who was probably in 30s or 40s. My sister told me, "It turned out for the best. My daughter turned out fine [as indeed she has] and I would never have done well being married" . , . [which I am sure is true]. Sis P [#4] is a religious fanatic, crazier than a hoot owl. Fortunately, she has (as far as I know), never mated. Finally Bro J [#5], is REALLY REALLY crazy, though harmless. He is psychotically depressed, schizophrenic, and bi-polar. He is married. Fortunately, no children.

    It's hard to diagnose oneself. As I've said before, I consider myself a "Tri-Path" [equal parts sociopath, psychopath, and empath]. My wife, my daughter, and her wife are all very empathic. I have "come out" to all three (and they handle the news comfortably because they know I am not dangerous) and they are rather understanding because I volunteer for law enforcement and because my daughter-in-law teaches at an exclusive private grade school for guilty billionaires' children that pushes compassion and empathy for the children of these "royalty" and "aristocrach" of the 21st Century. One of the school directors she tells me was in fact a sociopath who tormented her.

    We human beings are a mess. Will we survive this century? We will turn ourselves into something decent?

    1. Hi RA,

      It sounds from your narrative that the damage/chaos/neglect increased for each successive child. I have only one sibling (estranged), but her life has been much more difficult than mine (and my niece is in pretty bad shape as well - I can see BP running down the maternal line in my family clear as day).

      I share your concern about self diagnosis. I use "borderline personality" as a shorthand. If I had to actually "diagnose," it would end up being PD-NOS. followed by a list of behaviors like impulsivity and disregard for norms.

      I am "out" to my wife (kids are too young just yet) and a couple of family members and friends, but that has less to do with any comfort/discomfort and more to do with asking myself the question, "do I feel like having THAT talk again..." Like you, people who are close enough to me to know also know it's just another way to describe me and they already accept me.

      As to your question - all we can do is strive for the light.

      Have a great week!

    2. Hi HL,

      Your response makes sense to me. I suffer from depression. I am about to leave the island where I live to participate in the third of three (out of eight) group therapy sessions at my HMO on the mainland. At the first session, the therapist (who strikes me as quite competent) seemed to think I am a positive, empathic person. I tried to hint to her that I am not as nice as she thinks. She is starting to "get it," though she seems to think that my main flaw is an "anger management" problem. She's not entirely wrong. I volunteer for the local police force and undoubtedly many cops have anger management issues. I am not a "real" cop, and my anger tendencies are under reasonable control. I am thinking about how to break the news to the therapist and the other group members that I am "really" a "tri-path," without throwing them into terror and depression.

      The therapist is worried, I am pretty sure, that, that some of the members are suicidal. I hope she is OK in that regard. About 50 years ago I was in a different kind of group therapy encounter. I had a profound experience, but was disappointed to realize the next day that I was still me. A few weeks later, I learned that the therapist of that group had committed suicide. Apparently his therapy had not worked for himself. I have thought about suicide years ago, but I am more sociopath than depressed. I prefer to make other people depressed. I hope I am not fatal to this therapist.

    3. I wouldn't worry about the therapist. Either she's properly trained and possesses real ability to heal your wounds, which always involves darkness, or she's in the wrong work. Anger, dark fantasies, are perfectly normal human conditions. She should know that and not judge. If she does, find another therapist.

    4. Living on a island - sounds nice. :-)

      What June said - I can't say it better.

  5. OK and a Q for M.E. and other (fellow?) socios, fill-in-the-whatever-o's: how does one "cease to wrap in artifice,"or daringly"step into oneself" and be real and authentic and i guess as also mentioned above, vulnerable? I'm not a particularly A or B person, i'm very gray and feel no psychic stress about the sometimes more fluid nature of my own identity; other peoples, id care even less. so this idea of shedding some false or inauthentic skin - the idea sounds evangelical and trite. is it just me? is there a truer more authentic you that, if exposed, would also make you vulnerable?

    1. and blah blah blah cue the Brene Brown TED talk while i roll a joint - Shame is just one of many tools at my disposal and, while i don't necessarily associate it with weakness, it's function in engendering vulnerability, a state of being vulnerable because of an admission of some sort of recognized fault - im having a hard time conceptualizing what this may look like in me, but i also sense that in some way it obviously happens all the time.

    2. oh. and yea, i'm high. so, you know.

  6. There's a general air of dislike, no, outright hatred towards all things childish these days.

    It's causing everything to go stale.

  7. RIGHT?! EVERYTHING IS STALE, you are SO RIGHT. don't even get me started on Bronie-Con, am i right?! RIGHT?! EFF all the child-haters, thats what i say man. eff them!! STOP SHADING THE WORLD FROM THE BRIGHT RAYS OF CHILDHOOD!!

    ok. ill get offline.

    1. You should have killed yourself a long time ago, long before posting retarded shit like this.

  8. Most abusers have been abused themselves, and have an almost
    sixth (sick?) sense about detecting abuse in others.
    I knew a boy from a broken home who suffered years of abuse at the hands of different foster families. One time, while using the bathroom in
    a shopping mall. he was set upon by a stranger.
    Prior abuse victims have a "radar" about other abuse victims and strike
    while the iron is hot.

    1. I was abused, and I have a sixth sense. I don't trust anyone with my babies. I will check them out, smell them out and train the fuck outta my children to sniff them out. I was left vulnerable, but not without a fight. My clan knows what to look out for.

      Number 1 thing for me. Never date a guy who is in his 40's and watches porn so obsessively and needs a higher escalating thrill to get off on --- and has a thing for chick's 20-30 years younger than him. Big warning sign for me ...because I have a daughter. Huge! They'd fuck anything because the child was left available for them. They just seem to get younger from there on. It can escalate for them.

      Sometimes I test my husband out. Honey, would you ever date a women of this age? His answer: why the fuck would I want to date someone who's young enough to be one of my kids.

      This says lots about a moral boundary of a man that can overflow in other areas.

      I train my family well. Doors are left open, private parts are not to be touched by no one. And if someone ever tried to touch you, I'd believe you. I give my children scenarios of how predators choose their prey. They are well trained.

    2. My stock answer is, "they might be easy on the eyes, but WAY too hard on the ears." I usually get a smile and a kiss for that.

    3. But, if anyone comes near my kids with ill's best if all I say is, "it would not be pretty." (knives out and blood in my eyes...)

    4. be careful, Superchick. Glad you are teaching your daughter street smarts. (I have daughters too) One upside to your socio(?) boyfriend is that he will eviscerate anyone who bothers her. But always remember- personalities and morality are more flexible in those who are uninhibited. That is not an insinuation, just a reference to something I (unfortunately) observed firsthand. Glad they both have you.

    5. ;) I totally got ya Mach. My husband knows I don't trust anyone fully. Sadly, even him. It's not that I think he would cross a line, but having one who is flexible in areas - than even morally strict/rigid in other areas keeps me on my toes. My toes, no matter how good one looks. ;)
      Sometimes, he's like, " what the fuck do you think I am, just because your father abused you, doesn't mean I'm am one of those sickos. He knows my triggers are just activated. And they are. Nothing against him, just a mammas job to protect. And he knows I'd have to bury him if he did that. I have certain boundaries of the home he must respect. It really gets to him because he thinks I'm placing him into some category, but I can't help it, boundaries are placed to protect all people. I too have a flexible self, but certain things I believe rules/boundaries are there for our own good and the good of others around us. My own daughter can't even be left alone at her Nana's because my mother chooses to stay with a man who took advantage of me. That's her problem and her choice. If she wants to see my daughter, she comes to my home. I give my own mother scenarios of how it happened under her nose. She's like, I promise... I'll watch your daughter like a hawk. Um, mom where we're you when it happened under your own roof. Fuck that shit. I protect my babies.

    6. Superchick, You're just being a good mom. Moms need to be ferocious these days. I admire your maternal instincts.

  9. I loved this article. I am not sure that the author mentioned the word "shame" directly but I was struck by the thought that difference and shame were closely connected.

    Two kinds, actually: There's internally derived shame and the shaming that society at large performs to enforce social norms.

    My truth telling involved conquering both kinds of shame and there was a lot of blowback. But it was the cure to what ailed my aching heart. I remember the words "tell the truth until you get to the other side".

    The truth really does set you free.

    1. When you live transparently, you don't have to waste tons of energy hiding, weaving a protective guise or web.

      As I recall, there's a scientist who came up with a magnetic theory of astrology who thinks that it's very possible that all biological life leaves an imprint of its experience on cosmic magnetic fields. In other words, the truth of our lives is being recorded by the universe. If that's true, why bother wasting energy on lying. Course, down here on earth it does come in handy from time to time.

    2. I recall a Star Trek the Next Generation episode in which Picard says, "if we are to be damned, them let us be damned for what we are." (I hope I got that about right - Trekies can get fussy about that sort of thing...).

    3. speaking of Star Trek- did anyone see the NPR post about Atheists needing Captain Kirk? Amusing...

  10. What would a society of sociopaths look like? Pretty much like this blog. Fortunately (if that's the right word) there are no fire arms or sharp weapons easily at hand on an Internet blog, and a computer virus is something you can get anywhere on the Internet. About the worst danger here is that one of us trolls might drive some reader to suicide. Is everyone reading this OK? Speak to me! Speak to me. Oh, oh! You're not responding. Someone dial 911. Just imagine the call to 911. "I think I just drove someone to commit suicide on the Internet."

    1. For a society of sociopaths, this is pretty much peaceful.

      I do fantasize about choking someone in their sleep whenever I see a retarded comment, though (Anon 7:01, 7:04 and 7:48 for instance, it's the same person).

      As for a real society of sociopaths, as in a-real-world-where-everyone-is-sociopathic society, I'm actually actively trying to piece together how it would look.

    2. Hi Radical Agnostic,

      Maybe a society of high-functioning socios who have learned to handle and/or channel their aggression might look like this blog. But I work with low functioning socios, and the (in house) society they create is pure chaos: scamming, thieving, yelling, hitting, stabbing.

      "About the worst danger here is that one of us trolls might drive some reader to suicide." Truthfully, so far I haven't seen any comments that are that lethal, and I would think most victim-types would run like hell from this blog. Plus, would it really matter if a socio dissed you online? Some people it might feel it was a compliment, affirming their belief that they are good people. Being targeted by a socio could be seen as proof that are in some way worthy.

    3. Radical and June,

      I'm not getting the logic here. On the one hand a suggestion that a society of socios would look pretty much like this blog. On the other hand a recognition that the possibility of harming, controlling and manipulating... someone online is not absent but close to nil compared to real life.

      This means that the games are markedly different, and also one reason why the sampling of socios on this blog is skewed. That is one reason I don't think a society of socios or of only high functioning socios would look like this blog.

      The other is that socios would recognize each other's behaviors and intentions (there would be no masks i guess) and therefore their strategies and tactics and behaviors would be different than in a world composed mostly of empaths who wouldn't for the first time recognize a socio till they had no choice.

    4. Doc and Radical,

      I don't totally get the idea of a society of socios, either, though it does sound damn interesting. I'd watch the movie.

      However, the word society implies a group of people working together, in beneficial cooperation, according to laws created to protect and serve everyone. The potential for contradiction is obvious -- a society comprised of individuals who prey upon others might not 'cooperate.'

      Then again, a society of socios would take care of the population explosion, cut toxic emissions and save myriad species from extinction.

    5. Under the Skin, by Michel Faber. A socio society that would punish those socios who showed compassion? ;-)

      I suppose that's a rather cruel joke to some. Even super-empaths (someone called me that on this site a month or so ago) have a dark side.

    6. Only the Paranoid SurviveSeptember 22, 2014 at 9:06 PM

      It would look like the Holodomor, a manifestation of a pathocracy installed by high-functioning psychopaths.

    7. A society of cannibals, no doubt.

    8. Fairly close (but not quite a cigar) to real life sociopath societies: Hitler's Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union. There are quite a few other examples. Check out the book BLOOD AND SOIL: A WORLD HISTORY OF GENOCIDE by Ben Kernan. He starts with Sparta (probably the first sociopath country we have any record of and progresses up to modern times. It's kind of a cookbook. Take Nazi Germany. First you woo some fellow sociopaths. Hitler collected Himmler, Goebbels, Heydrich, etc. Than you tell the gullible empaths someone is going to eat your babies. Hitler said, more or less, "Jews are not human beings. Jews eat Christian babies and drink their blood." Bingo, you have a sociopath society. In the 20th Century both Hitler and Stalin came very close to conquering the world. As the old joke goes, "You have relatives in Germany, eh?"

      In our time, we had Osama bin Laden and his Islamic psychopath friends who are sure they will be fucking virgins in Heaven after they blow themselves and your family up. Motto of a sociopath society: "WE ARE ONLY ONE OUT OF A HUNDRED BUT WE WILL EAT YOUR LIVER WHILE YOU ARE STILL SAYING NICE MAD DOG, NICE MAD DOG AND TRYING TO PET US AND SLEEP WITH US.:

    9. Hi Radical, I look forward to checking out the book you mentioned. I do distinguish between a sociopathic society, and a society made up only of sociopaths...

      For instance "Than you tell the gullible empaths someone is going to eat your babies. Hitler said, more or less, "Jews are not human beings. Jews eat Christian babies and drink their blood." Bingo, you have a sociopath society."

      Well if there were only sociopaths, there would not be gullible empaths. Maybe the strategy of convincing that Jews would eat your babies would not work, or would it?

    10. Only the Paranoid SurviveSeptember 23, 2014 at 8:18 PM

      Over 80% of the mainstream media is controlled by Jews. That explains your naive belief that WW2 was simply about Jews being persecuted. Far more Germans, Gypsies, Russians, etc. were persecuted and died in WW2.

    11. A sociopath society would be like Vulcan/Romulus from Star Trek.

  11. Hierarchy is a mental construct that we unconsciously agree on I guess, things would change if we all realized that.

    1. Some apes are obsessed with social hierarchy.
      subsistence doesn't matter.
      being top chimp does.

    2. @9:33 Yes, but being top chimp wouldn't implicitly mean subsistence? As in best warrior, best hunter, best mating chances?

      Subsistence itself would be reduced down to mating -> Feed yourself / wife / wives, survive longer than the others, maximize your chances of reproduction and passing down your genes. I can't think of a better way of doing this than being alpha chimp (excluding screwing the females behind the alpha's back, of course, I don't know if apes do this, if they do, then I stand corrected).

  12. A child, however well trained is no physical or emotional match for
    a seasoned molester. Even a woman in her 20's going out "clubbing."
    I don't know if the American's here have kept track of the news story
    about the University of Virginia co-ed, who was last seen on film leaving
    some night spot with a savage. The cops had him in their hands and let
    him go. The same sub-human is a suspect in other co-ed dissapearences. Somehow, we never seem to get the message that these baboons are to be avoided because it's "biased."
    We've got to bypass the message of the Jew, who's only agenda has been to destroy society through ridicilous messages that people are
    "good at heart." People are WICKED. But we must accept the unpleasent
    reality that some are MORE wicked then others.

    1. Especially crazy Anonymous 9-23-2014. I am a Jew. I am not good at heart. As your message is especially ridiculous (even for this web site), are you a) trying to destroy society? b) are you MORE wicked than I am? c) even more senile than I am (and I am WAY round the bend. Don't be shy. Speak up. Everyone (well, maybe me) wants to hear from you and know your real name and where you live and your social security number and what prison you are incarcerated in or is a mental hospital?

    2. Fuck yourself, Nazi cum sucking senile faggot. I doubt you can get your micron long prick into the ass hole of a virgin earthworm, but let's see you try anyway for our general entertainment.

  13. How many socios will sign a document stating that all men are equal?

    1. One to sign the document, one to knot the noose, and one to start the gas flowing into the chamber. It's called a trinity.

    2. Only the Paranoid SurviveSeptember 23, 2014 at 10:33 AM

      Most of them.

      After all, it is just a piece of paper.

    3. Socios see humans for what they are: they see poor trash living in the worst areas of town and consider them "lowlife". They see rich bastards which were lucky to be born lucky, concealing their vile gutter-urges in mansions and consider them "lowlife". Do they see other humans than "lowlife" & "trite minds"? Seldom, but when they do they´re fair & will admit it..

    4. RA and OTPS, Heh heh. You guys are hilarious.

    5. June, I thank you. But please don't encourage me. My wife is a lotus covered empath and refuses to believe I am a sociopath despite 48 years of marriage. My daughter is an empath also married to another woman. Her wife, also an empath, works for one of the most exclusive private schools in the United States kind of like a Harvard Yale Princeton for children of guilty billionaires. If I told you whom I am talking about, my relatives in Hell would be tortured and die for billions of years in pain that can only be imagined by Christians. I just pretend I didn't mention a certain couple who run one of the kindest foundations in the world send their children there. My daughter's wife, who teaches first grade there and constantly preaches "compassion" to the little tykes, told me, "They [sociopaths] are everywhere. My supervisor at this school was one. We took care of her." Every word I say is true even though I am a Tri-Path.

    6. wow you're that old? All of the psych games you play sound pretty juvenile, and not very sophisticated. I'm thinking you aren't socio...maybe you're just going through some problems in your life right now?

    7. @2:47: this in sharp contrast to the superior cunningness of the games you are playing?

      You asking RA about his problems does seem like a bit of transference, wouldn't you want to tell us about yours?

    8. hmm well, if this is the best socios have to offer, I'm a bit disappointed :/ I don't think so though. I've seen some things that I find pretty impressive, but this radical agnostic thinks not socio...or maybe like the trailer socio or something

    9. @ Radical Agnostic

      You mention a school run for the children of 'guilty billionaires'. What are they guilty of?


    10. RA, You're welcome. However, I'll stop encouraging you only when you stop describing things that make me laugh my guts out "my wife is a lotus covered empath."

      Lotuses thrive in mud, btw. They require lots of muck to grow.

  14. Yesteday, I spent an hour trying to convince a very empathic woman that I am a sociopath. If we had not been in a medical clinic in full sight of 20 or 30 other people, I could have proven the point very quickly. Fortunately for her I am a "Tri-Path." I did try to educate her. I said, "If someone attacked you with a knife" (and this has come close to happening to me), would you be willing to kill him to save your own life?"

    "I guess so," she said. I said, "You are on the right track to the wrong track you need to be on," i said. I hope she doesn't get so confused that she kills herself. But I don't worry about it very much because . . . well, you know.

    1. I couldn't help but smile reading this. Good for you for being honest and the hell with if she's confused -- she's there to ask questions until she does understand. I can assure you she won't kill herself over your revelation. Hopefully, she'll do her best to understand your many-faceted nature.

    2. don't worry. she'll probably pray for you or send you "pink light" but you will have given her many fascinating Rabbit trails to chase- win/win I'd say

    3. Radical Agnostic: How would you have proven to her that you're a sociopath quickly?

      ~ Raven

    4. And, why even convince her? I'm just curious -

      What's the payoff?

    5. @Radical Agnostic: I am trying to understand what you mean by tri-path. Just in case you didn't see my question in a previous post (lost track of the comment, derp) I'll ask again here. What are the differences/definitions of psychopath and sociopath that you are working with? I haven't come across the term 'tri-path' before and am very curious as to what exactly you mean.

      I, too, thought you were younger (yet not juvenile) considering how you sort of snapped at me for asking what you meant in a previous comment (you made a joke and I wasn't quite sure if you were kidding or not, seeing as how we DO occasionally get some people here making fun of the site). I am also very curious to know what you would have done to prove your point very quickly? I'm greatly enjoying your posts.

  15. When I was a semi-virgin, I met a sadist who drugged me and called a gang-bang "party" on me. To all outward appearances, I was a "victim." But I knew I wasn't. He opened me to my true sexuality, plus I fell in love with him. I didn't have to forgive him. There was nothing to forgive.

  16. Fact: the zodiac death-sign Scorpio often is "shy". "Clam-scorps" is the label for this. But talking to the same scorp in private revals a very confident self, almost a personality made from stone, anything but a "shy person". Sociopaths are not shy: they do things with little hesitation. But the socios "inner self" is so brittle that the slightes remark from some moron can shatter this fragile thing, like a mirror, often resulting in "shit in fan" when they try to repair the "inner self" that got severely mangled by some morons silly speech. Do we see some "connections" here? Any "revelations"? Same stuff, but reversed..?

    1. Scorpio is a water sign: they are deep, penetrating folk who do not like chit-chat; shallow conversations bore them. (unless they have Mercury and/or Venus in Sagittarius, or some other "talkie" planetary configuration) They are not really shy, they just look that way because they prefer to observe people and things very, very closely. Scorpio, btw, is not just associated with death but rebirth. There are three types of Scorpio: the snake or scorpion (the lowest instinctual level), the eagle (the detached observer who can sting but chooses his targets very selectively, often for a 'higher' cause) and phoenix, a mythical bird whom rose from its own ashes and symbolizes the spiritual heights one can obtain from 'letting go' of revenge, anger, etc. Their egos are, as you say, brittle. That's likely because they KNOW how intelligent, brave and powerful they are and that nothing can stop them from reaching their goal. It's very difficult for Scorpios to change because they feel they are connected to the invisible powers that be. Personally, I don't recall any Scorpio client of mine being shattered by 'some morons silly speech." Usually they cut the person to pieces via sarcasm, then laugh, heh heh. They are excellent shrinks because they know how to penetrate beneath the skin of just about anyone. (I am talking about the intelligent Scorpios, btw, not the snakes.)

    2. The psycho get all "worked up" by slight remarks due to low self esteem (but have super confidence at the same time!). Scorps can be REALLY SHY, not wanting to have any contact with strangers etc. They dont even want to discuss how shy they are because this reminds them how shy they are, it makes them angry, which is weird because shy folks often just cry, scorps will scream with hateful voices about how shy they are. But its genuine. "Clam scorps" are shy.

    3. June- I am supposedly "Scorpio Rising" - what is your thought on ascendants vs sun signs.

    4. The Ascendant is just as important as the Sun in astrology. It represents the persona, the way others see us upon first meeting; it is the social mask. As well, the Ascendant symbolizes the body type and certain health issues. And, lastly, because it represents the point through which all of the planets in the chart must 'pass through' it acts as a kind of filter for the whole chart. So, say you have Scorpio Rising but your Sun is in Leo, you've got a natural conflict going on: Scorpio wants to stay in the background, Leo wants center stage, and so on. Leo wants to shine, but the Scorpio Rising is cautious about 'giving away' information, which to them is power. However, if Uranus is conjoined the Ascendant in Scorpio, then the whole persona will be colored very different, because the planet Uranus is a radical energy that will 'overpower' the Ascendant sign, mixing up the dynamic considerably.

      An example might be this: since both Scorpio and the planet Uranus (the planet that rules Aquarius) are extreme signatures, this person would likely live a very extreme life, with many ups and downs, no middle ground. It would be an all or nothing kind of lifestyle: they would be rebellious and not tolerate being told what to do, thus likely to go from job to job. Getting respect from such a person would be very difficult because they would not give it just because someone has letters after their name. On the other hand, the person would make an excellent leader in the name of a good cause, because they wouldn't care what others think. Nor would you ever want to mess with their family -- they can be quite suddenly vicious when it comes to protecting those they love. Course, I'm winging it here; this is hypothesis based on a couple of factors, not the whole chart. There are lots of articles on about rising signs that you might find useful.

  17. I can't believe what I read here. For that matter, I can't believe what I write here.

  18. Next week I am going to tell my depression group therapist that I am a psychopath. Yesterday, she asked me, "Are you a Jew?" I said, "Yes." So she started the conversation, and it's her fault that I started talking about the Holocaust and I said, "We Jews are such 'drama queens.' Don't forget Rwanda and Armenia and so on." She then said, "My parents were Holocaust survivors. Don't go there."

    It's all her fault. She started the conversation. However, as I am a Tri-Path, I dropped the conversation. I am already planning what I will spring on her next week. I know she is looking forward with anticipation. She really likes it when I . . . Well, never mind.

    1. My cock is massively hard right now. Would you do the honours..?

    2. Um, but my vagina is massively moist. What do you suppose we do about that.

    3. Um, but my vagina is massively moist. What do you suppose we do about that.

    4. Hey Radical,
      What is that 'Tri-Path' thing about? What makes the difference between being a sociopath and being a 'Tri-Path'? Just all about being a special snowflake or are there reasons?

      Also I'm looking forward to hear what will happen...

    5. Tri Path means SOOOO many feelings but some nasty secrets too ;)

    6. Natural Born: "Tri-Path" means I totally unscientifically and subjectively evaluate my personality as 1/3 sociopath, 1/3 psychopath, and 1/3 empath.

      I draw the 1/3 empath in that I saw someone die of a heart attack about 50 years ago and the image and regret is still vivid in my mind. I feel no guilt because responders were trying to save her. I WAS impelled to learn CPR. Also, I have done a few good deeds during my life time. I think (and this is very uncertain) that I have deterred at least two people from committing suicide.

      On the other hand, I think my empathy is much lower than most other people's. I have never (as far as I know) murdered another human being. I did have a kind of "Dexter Morgan" moment (if you know that fictional character, a serial murderer who only murders other serial murderers.

      I was involved in a huge struggle with the second worst cult leader / swindler in Oregon's history (#1 was "Oso" the Rajneesh new age Indian fraudster). You never heard of Cerro Gordo or Chris Canfield, but he was a California new age / swindler who established an "ecovillage" not far from Eugene. He stole about a million dollars over a twenty year period and drove his wife to suicide. (Is that murder?) He fooled me and my wife completely for three years. After I tried to work "within the system" to no avail I imagined killing him in an accident in the woods, rationalizing "This guy is evil. He needs to be stopped." I decided not to try, not because murder is wrong but because I realized I would never get away with it. So I swindled him out of almost a hundred thousand dollars. The Oregon Supreme Court approved my virtuous swindle. I felt very little motivation to share my money with the other people who lost money. I kept it all and bought land in the woods. Is that sociopathic?

      Is there a difference between a sociopath or a psychopath? Is there a difference between a grizzly bear or a great white shark. Even though I am now senile (as this comment clearly demonstrates), don't fuck with me.

    7. @Mach thank you for that one xD

      @Radical thank you for your comment, it revealed a lot to me. However you shouldn't feel offended by someone like me, okay? I won't fuck with you or anyone else over the internet as I see no point in doing so. My question derived solely from curiosity, albeit poorly phrased as I should add. Just keep on posting, I like what you write.

    8. [Un]Natural Born. I am difficult to offend. I prefer to offend, and have (with practice) some skill at it. One of the characteristics I like about this blog is 1) it is difficult to offend and 2) (now too many) it doesn't fucking much matter if I do. I am glad you like what I write. I am kind of narcissistic and fairly susceptible to flattery, as long as it isn't laid on too thick. Kind of like butter on toast.

  19. And there it is.

    Without fail.

  20. I suppose, four years after the fact, not many people recall Casey
    Anthony. If you even remember her at all, it's probably through
    perifial attention. I'll recap very quickly:
    Casey is a very naracssist woman, quite remeinisant of today's woman.
    She is self obsessed, pleasure seeking, promiscious and shallow.
    The only question is: Is she or is she NOT a sociopath? When her case
    was prominent, if you asked that question of ten different T.V. "talking
    heads," you'd get ten different answers.
    Most people believe one of two things happened:
    She knocked her child out so she could party. (The child was often seen
    sleeping in "loud" party atmospheres, while Casey went into the bedroom
    with her boyfriend.) The theory goes that she accidently overdosed the
    child. That's why she kept the child in the trunk of her car in the hot
    Florida heat. But why put three pieces of duct tape on her face if it was an accident?
    2) She planned the killing of the child, when her mother finally decided to
    take her away from her because of her irresponsibility. (They had a big
    argument beforehand.)
    Casey was accquited because the prosecution overcharged, (They
    wanted death), It was a "celeberity" case, because only "C.S.I." evidence
    is good enough in today's day and age, confusion about the meaning of
    "reasonable doubt," and most importantly, because of excellent jury
    Casey, had no "sociopathic" history prior to age 20. She was a "normal"
    girl, which doesn't say much for her character. She hid the fact that she
    couldn't graduate High School from her parents, until practically the last
    minute, and hid her pregnancy for as long as she could. THAT doesn't
    make her a sociopath. Her mother assisted her in these "plots."
    Because most people think she is as guilty as sin, she is largely in hiding.
    George Zimmerman is NOT in hiding. My question for those that know
    something about this case: Do you think she will ALWAYS have to hide?
    I think she will marry some "helper" of her's, like a bodyguard, or an
    attorney. Other "infamous" women have done things like that. What do
    YOU see?

    1. To rerun my comment about difference between psychopath vs. sociopath being similar to difference between grizzly and white shark, at some point the most important "triage" quality is "Will this person kill me or somebody I sort of care about?" Is Casey (and my failing memory does sort of remember her) going to kill again? If she is, is there any reason for any of us (the person most conveniently situated) to NOT step on her and squash her flat as any of might step on a slug or a black widow spider? Of course, when you go to trial (unless you are bright enough not to get caught, which I am not) would you think it advisable to offer a print out of this blog as evidence for the defense? Or evidence for the prosecution?

      Putting into my mind the question: At the very moment I type and post this, is some police detective, FBI agent, or prosecuting attorney trolling this web site? Hoping to "make his or her bones by catching out some murderous serial killer a a very early stage of their career?

      I will try to set a good example. My real name is FIRST LAST. (No middle name because my insane father hated his). My location is an island in Puget Sound WA. My social security number is 000-00-000. I am 70 years old. I have been married to an empathic woman for 48 years who doesn't much worry that she is married to a sociopath. My daughter is 47 years old and recently married her female lover of over 20 years old. My non-genetic granddaughter is ten years old and goes to a private school for highly intelligent children of guilty billionaires where her birth mother teaches first grade. Said birth mother (we call her Mommy to distinguish her from my daughte known as Mama, puts her highest values as compassion. Recently she told me that one of her bosses was a non-violent psychopath. Sweet kind compassionate Mommy told me, "I took care of her." I leave the rest to your imagination.

      Also, as protective coloration, I am working very closely with a local police department. My "boss" [as a volunteer] is a female sergeant and second in command of the local precinct. The first time I met her, I asked her, "How tall are you?" She said, "Six foot 3 inches." [Mommy told me "That was a rude question."] I asked, "Basketball?" She said, "Volleyball." I have no doubt that she is a very good shot with the handgun in her holster (I don't know the make or caliber). I am little doubt that she keeps a concealed weapon or two on her person. I have little doubt, though she is very lean in body type, that she can spike you or me about a foot into the earth.

      So if you come after me without a warrant, be careful.

    2. As I am senile AND dyslexic, my post is full of errors. I assume you are bright enough and coherent enough to figure out what I meant to say. If you can't make any sense of what I said, Well, Fuck You.

  21. "At the very moment I type and post this, is some police detective, FBI agent, or prosecuting attorney trolling this web site? " um duh...FBI's all over this site. I brought it up before, and was shocked people didn't agree.

  22. Anonymous whatever: The real question is: Of the FBI agents all over this site, what percentage of them are themselves sociopaths? As the old Latin phrase goes, "Who Guards the Guardians?" What percentage of the people posting as "Anonymous" are sociopaths, what percentage are FBI agents, what percentage are KGB agents, what percentage are Islamic Terrorists from IS whatever and what percentage are aliens from another solar system biding their time until they suck the marrow from our bones?

    1. Ohhh lots of them. I have another profile on the net where an FBI agent was on it who specialized in counter terrorism. Some of what was described sounded like so called "prosocial sociopathy", but it just added to it when several people described him as very charming. These traits probably make him very effective at his job.

    2. If you notice, a lot of law enforcement has a very predatory nature so they found an outlet in society that won't get them in to any trouble where they have an outlet for their natural tendencies.

    3. I agree Anonymous 1119

  23. RA, you are so funny!! :D

    1. Super thank you, cute chick. It's time for me to eat lunch. Let's see. My lunch is still moving. Lunch is more interesting when its heart is still beating and the blood is still pulsing through its arteries.

    2. Hahaha, yum! You'd love my backyard right about now. Yummy partridge.

  24. I believe I've mentioned here before that I was molested by a neighbor when I was a child. I think it did contribute to the development of both my sexuality and my personality. I'm not a determinist about it, I don't blame my abuser for what I am. Despite identifying as straight, I do have bisexual tendencies. I also think as a result of my abuse, I have always felt uncomfortable around other men, which has made it hard for me to establish friendships with other guys. I sometimes wonder if the other problems I have relating to other people, and objectifying them, is a biproduct of my abuse.

    Oddly, I don't really blame my abuser or harbor any ill-will towards him. Not directly, not enough to tell anyone in my life about what happened or try to recriminate. Part of me just views this as my first sexual experience. When I consider how it affected me, I guess I just wonder if I might have been a different person. It isn't anger, maybe something like melancholy.

  25. I am here to give testimony on how i got my wife back ,He is real.?

    Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in Texas,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website,if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to “bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{} , Thanks.

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