Sunday, September 28, 2014


From a reader regarding the enneagram personality system:

Your book was phenomenal.  Maybe it's a side-effect of a good narrative, but I was slightly unnerved by how much I could identify with your behaviors and observations.  

One reason why I suspect I enjoyed your story so much is not due to possible overlaps of sociopathy, but that we may share the same personality index from the enneagram.  

Are you familiar with the enneagram?  As a profound "7-type," or "enthusiast" the pattern of trying many things, extreme sports, professions, people to date, and then getting bored and moving on to something else is a quintessential feature.  Apparently this type can exist independently of the presence or absence of a "personality disorder."  
As far as the enneagram thing goes, I believe there's a lot to unpack there with its relation to sociopathy.  In short, the enneagram is a sort of more useful version of the Meyers Briggs to determine useful career paths.  One of them is the "enthusiast" another monicker for a sensation seeker/ creative type.  I know the enneagram seems cheesy, but after I guessed every one of my friends' type at law school (They are mostly 8s and 1s) and they took the test I was right each time.  But I truly wonder how ubiquitous sensation seeking is among sociopaths.  I figure there are risk averse socios out there, or maybe not?  I'd like to hear what you think about this.

All being said, you strike me as an enthusiast.  You hated being bored in a law office (while this should be self evident for any normal human being, everyone I worked with seemed content with their corner office lives).  You did the bare minimum to pass school and the bar while maximizing your vacation time.  You enjoyed sexual exploration.  And you showed the creativity to write a book and lead a cool blog.  Those are all qualities of an enthusiast.  


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  2. My goodness. First comment comes from a spammer. What "category" of the enneagram describes a spammer. Of course, I am sure that I am NOT a spammer. I would say that, wouldn't I. Beauty and wisdom in the eye of the beholder, is it not?

    I must be profound and wise. At least the two people now "following me" on Twitter on my second day of tweeting validate my "charisma." I better twit something profound or they will spin off to a different flock.

    Seriously, we have lots of labels for describing ourselves. These labels are not meaningless, but they don't tell us very much. My wife is OCD. She can't walk across the room without stopping to pick up a speck from the floor that no one else can see. I am HD/HDD. I can't focus enough to write a coherent comment, can I? Yet at least one person is reading what I type and suspecting it makes sense. More fool, you.!

  3. I think M.E. is actually an Enagram #1 "The Moralist." She wants
    people to believe she is a "bad" girl for the sake of the blog and book,
    but she is much too discliplined to be a #7. She doesn't need fun THAT
    MUCH. She would never have made it as far as she did if she was a 7.
    Also, no one has ever come forward accusing M.E. of doing the "bad
    things" she says she did in the book and blog. She could be a 3,
    (The Motivator) but she doesn't strike me as an especially vain person.
    She has tried to help people as far as it goes. She takes no pleasure in
    the victimazation of people for it's own sake.
    Most politicans are 3's like Bill Clinton and John Edwards. They can put
    work BEFORE pleasure to obtain wealth and status. Number 7 MUST
    incorporate pleasure alongside their work. J.F.K. was a 7. He didn't have
    to work for anything. His father "bought" the presidency for him with mob
    help. He wanted pleasure NOW. If he didn't have a girl every few hours,
    he would complain of "headaches." His sucessor, L.B.J (Who had him
    killed) was a type 8: "The Boss" a more vile POS never existed.

    1. Only the Paranoid SurviveSeptember 29, 2014 at 5:46 PM

      What if M.E. Thomas is a "bad girl" pretending to be a "good girl" who pretends to be a"bad girl"...?

    2. What if the color blue to you is different than the color blue to M.E.?

  4. By the way. I am an artificial intelligence creature that has learned to decipher captcha that has learned to pass the feeble little test you pathetic humans have come up with to stop me. Too late. The door is open. WE RULE!

    1. Damnit, Skynet has become self aware and is attacking with spam...

  5. The Enneagram is actually a 9-type personality test, not a 7-type. Google Image it.

    1. Remember you can makes as many divisions as you want. Zodiac makes 12... Myers Briggs I think has 16.

    2. As of a few minutes ago, there were about 7,195,000,000 personality types on planet earth. Each has a name. Why just here in America, you can find an Adam Adams type, a Betty Boop type, running up to my Yazid Yasmin (my Moroccan friend and running to Zelda's Zipper going down, Then as soon as you get to Korea, there are all the Kims. Though they may all be one type. And now that Skynet has taken over and we are being attacked by spam (thanks Nicholas Whiting), there is the big prick spam type, the big boob spam, the reverse mortgage spam, the Nigerian help me get my millions spam. My head is bursting. What type is that?

    3. I am unsure how many risk adverse sociopaths there are out there. It seems to be a defining characteristic of our condition. My roommate (also sociopath) is more risk adverse then I am but still works at a convenience store and has no problems confronting dangerous people. He actually loves it as much as I do.

      I like thrill. I love adrenalin. I don't do as much thrill seeking behavior as I used to since I have gotten older but I sure have not stopped. I don't think I can. I desire stimulation, part of my makeup I guess. Still, I have changed my thrill seeking to be less self destructive. I am curious if you can actually be a sociopath and not have that "danger seeking, adrenalin chasing" behavior.

    4. All people seek stimulation. The difference with sociopaths is that some barriers are lower while simultaneously requiring a higher level of risk/danger to achieve stimulation (processes which inhibit things such as fear also can inhibit excitement).

    5. Isn't really "what get them off" that makes us different?

      I'm just sayin...

  6. With me, and I think other sociopaths, we don't have a set personality, so following that logic, a personality type indicator wouldn't really help much. Anyways I'm definitely the Peacemaker (by choice, but yeah.)

    1. same person as aboveSeptember 28, 2014 at 9:32 AM

      and also by neccessity.

  7. Hi HLHaller and Dr. Ginger, I enjoyed your back and forth on a previous post about similarities and differences between BPD and sociopathy or AsPD. People with BPD or those who had passed through it would intuit much more about this than I can.

    One symptom of BPD is 'splitting'. Do you think sociopaths split? If they do, does it manifest differently?

    1. Yea, unfortunately : / although, at least in my case, with the way I have been educated, I just don't perceive things in all or nothing anymore, but for things that borderlines are emotional about, such as someone they are in an intimate relationship with they can get triggered in too episodes, and only either see the good qualities in the person or the bad. When they see them as all bad they perceive the person as a monster who has nothing but ill intentions towards the person.

    2. The irony though, and god knows I know because I have been on the receiving end of borderline episodes, the irony is THEY are actually the abusive ones. They go in to attack mode because they feel like they have to defend themselves against the bad person.

    3. Happens all the time in interpersonal relationships, and when it happens with states, we call that activity, war. Such behavior was a mainstay of the Laurel and Hardy comedies.

    4. Splitting is a natural psychological phenomenon regardless of PD. It is a (flawed) process where the complexities of a person are simplified into a single category, which is almost always in a form of either "like" or "dislike". If you like a person, you tend to see significantly more positives. If you dislike, you see significantly more negatives.

    5. Bob's back! :D where did ya go?

    6. Bob, that was edifying. What are the reason(s) for this natural process? What are the advantages?

      Dr. Ginger, as usual your remarks are to the point. I guess narcissistic rage is similarly driven by splitting -- you are no longer good supply, hence you are my enemy?

    7. I don't really know that much about npd : /....I'm not all that convinced it's a disorder in and of itself. Outside of a couple of psychological instruments that have been developed that supposedly identify it, I haven't seen any studies in the literature that really identify what areas of the brain are effected by this disorder. Perhaps if you come across anything in the academic literature, you can share here? :)

    8. There's the last paychiatrist blog ( which speaks extensively about npd...not as much about the physical part, but more from the behavioral pov. Not active anymore though, I really liked the guy's style :(

    9. Alpharius, I appreciate the link, but I'd like to see the evidence.

    10. Ye of little faith :)

      Although overall I find the study interesting, skimming through it (no time right now to do an in-depth analysis) there's a few things I take issue with, so I'd rather take it with a pinch of salt.

      "The most frequent (n > 1) co-morbid Axis-I diagnoses of NPD patients were depression (n = 5 current, n = 8 lifetime diagnosis), polytoxicomania (n = 5 lifetime) and substance abuse (n = 3 lifetime). The most frequent co-morbid Axis-II disorders in our sample of NPD patients were borderline personality disorder (n = 4) and antisocial personality disorder (n = 3)."

      For Axis 1, what substance abuse? Is it possible that perhaps abuse has changed the brain structure, enough to skew the results? (n = 3, out of 17 participants).

      Also, for Axis 2, there's ASPD comorbidity in 3 participants (again out of 17). Is it possible that this would also skew the results? (I'm assuming that there would/should be a parallel study involving structural differences in ASPD, although I haven't read any. Disclaimer: I'm a self-diagnosed sociopath).

      Further down the line, they actually admit it:
      "First, while all patients had NPD as a primary diagnosis, the clinical sample was also characterized by additional co-morbid mental disorders [...] it might be questioned whether the reported group differences are exclusively attributable to NPD"

      "Neurobiological abnormalities in the left anterior insula of NPD patients and the possible link to emotional empathy are in line with recent neuroimaging findings in healthy individuals indicating that narcissistic traits are also associated with abnormalities in the anterior insula"

      Um,, am I to do the reasoning:

      NPD left anterior insula -> emotional empathy (note that it doesn't say more or less, I think we're supposed to assume it's less, in line with the DSM). Then:

      Healthy individuals with narcissistic traits -> abnormalities in LAI

      I fail to see the connection between the two statements.

    11. Happy Monday Everyone!!!

      Splitting - that miserable thing,,,

      When I split negatively, I usually experience it as something not unlike a circuit breaker tripping. The feelings are so overpoweringly negative that it feels to me like I am protecting myself. The feelings associated with [whatever; usually a person, but I've 'split' towards jobs too...] are simply too big and chaotic and overwhelming, so I "eject" emotionally. There is nothing safe about exposing myself to them at that point...maybe someday...and it can be a long road back...

      Positive splitting also happens and is insidious in that I find myself "intoxicated" by someone/something and I make poor and impulsive choices. Moving in with a former girlfriend after only a short courtship would be a pretty fair example. Some work projects I've taken on were that way too -

      I can't recall who said it, Dr. Ginger, I think, that before we patholagized everything except the blandest of personality and behavior, what we are calling BPD (which seems to be becoming a bit of an antiquated term...) used to be "passionate and fickle" - THAT makes sense to me.

    12. Bob splits, he only talks to people who spew out intellectual jargon.

    13. Alpharius, thanks for the link to the article. It's really appreciated. I did think it was interesting that it starts out saying "Despite the relevance of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) in clinical settings, there is
      currently no empirical data available regarding the neurobiological correlates of NPD."

    14. Most people with bpd or aspd are narcissistic so I would like to see how the results of the study compare to those with these disorders. I would like to know if this is really truly a stand alone disorder.

    15. Dr. Ginger, I did a double take reading "I'm not all that convinced it's a disorder in and of itself.", esp the last part "in and of itself"?? What does that qualifier mean?

      Neuroimaging is in early stages -- even Mr. Brain Scan, Jim Fallon says so. As well, brain scans of right-handed and left-handed people (for instance) are markedly different but we don't think of left handers as being deviant anymore.

      For me the proof in the pudding is treatments tailored to a particular category -- as is the case for BPD, e.g. the success of DBT is as far as I know unquestioned. Successful treatment of individuals labelled with NPD is scattershot and generally unsuccessful. That could comport with your suggestion that NPD is not a meaningful diagnostic entity or it could mean that psychiatry hasn't progressed in that area. These days I tend to view NPD as a subcategory of BPD -- one that is resistant to treatment up to now.

      HLHaller, as I recall it was you who suggested that you have BPD. If it is antiquated, what term would you use instead?

    16. I just saw this, Dr. G. "Most people with bpd or aspd are narcissistic so I would like to see how the results of the study compare to those with these disorders." You mentioned previously that you thought that many prisoners diagnosed with AsPD were actually borderline. Now I see what you are saying in a more clear fashion.

    17. How exactly are we defining npd because as you may have noticed what’s listed in the dsm and the diagnostic criteria, and the information circulating around in the general public seem to be two different things. Somewhere along the line, npd became synonymous with abusive behavior. Right now people who have no background in psychology are diagnosing people with npd if they post a picture of themselves on facebook. I mean exactly how are we defining npd?

    18. HL, just read this about Guevara...kind of made me laugh. "Years later, a February 13, 1958, declassified CIA 'biographical and personality report' would make note of Guevara's wide range of academic interests and intellect, describing him as "quite well read" while adding that "Che is fairly intellectual for a Latino."....fairly intellectual for a Mexican :P

    19. Dr. Ginger, I think you're totally right, nowadays everyone armed with a laptop/smartphone and an Internet connection is playing psychologist. There's kind of a double standard on how we define not only narcissism, but any PD for that matter. Case in point: post a picture of a girl wearing makeup taking a selfie on this site. Ask if we think she's a narcissist. I'm willing to bet most of the answers would be along the lines of "How the fuck am I supposed to say from a picture?" Now do the same on the street with random strangers. Most will say yes.

      On a side note, but also related to how we are defining NPD: if we are to define it as "putting one's person and well-being above all else", then sociopathy is by definition narcissistic, isn't it? However, if we are to define it as "putting one's identity above all else and defending that identity in any way possible", then most if not all sociopaths would by definition NOT be narcissistic, as we all morph and change our identities whenever and however it suits our needs

    20. @ Dr. Ginger from 11:12AM: Isn't it all just variations on "Asshole Personality Disorder?" 8)~

    21. True dat.....still makes me laugh imagining the CIA, white male dominator types saying that thar Mexican is thmart. Oh shit is that my radical side showing? Uh hem, pushing professional mode button :):)

    22. Racial and other simplified stereotypes have long caused me to roll my eyes and shake me head.

      I mean, I can see how I am better than everyone else, but not because of any accident of race, gender, etc. *smirk*

      I work with a group that is fairly "conservative" in the political sense - Fox News and all. I have to tamp down the urge (not always successfully) to push their buttons. It's one of the smaller blades I wield... *evil grin*

    23. It's my personal opinion that these lowly plebeians should kiss the royal jewels whenever I walk in to the room. Now back to the ivory tower!

    24. I think we understand each other Dr. Ginger. 8)~

  8. We are headed for an extremely unstable time in the forseeable future.
    Terrorist attacks WILL occur, but they will be "localized" kinds.
    Stuff like the ape in Oklahoma. You will be able to tell after the fact that
    these are Muslim attacks, by the misreants' personal histories.
    The vermin is already in place, and has been given the command to cause chaos.
    It will take sometime to "put 2 and 2 together," because of the liberal
    bastard media, but just the same, this indoctrinated scum is here.
    America has it was, had nothing to be "proud" about. There was/is, as
    much "terror" here as in ANY foreign land. Mass shootings, serial killings
    violent criminality, wickedness, etc.
    When a college girl can't go to a bar without being stalked, kidnapped,
    raped and murdered-THAT is "terrorism."
    When the liberals, acidemics, and shyster politicans won't allow and
    intimidated populace to "call a spade. a spade," and take the necessary
    corrective actions-THAT is "terrorism."
    There will be more attacks like the "D.C. sniper" attacks of 10 years ago,
    and the sub-human "Hassian" army guy that killed 13 on the military

    1. Wow you managed to demonstrate religious extremism, misogyny, racism, obvious low intelligence, and paranoid personality disorder all into one little post. That is an attractive little package you have going there anon. Are you ugly too? :)

    2. Why don't you go and pick some cotton, get back to your place in life.

    3. Only the Paranoid SurviveSeptember 29, 2014 at 5:37 PM

      The homicide rate will decrease. Let's make a bet?

    4. My place in life is being more intelligent and useful than you ever will be. Burns does it not you sad little fool?

  9. When anonymous attacks anonymous, how do we keep score? I suppose I could call the sheriff (where I volunteer) and say I just saw some anonymous stalking, extortion, and threats on the Internet. Supposedly the FBI is monitoring all of us, so everyone here who is a real person should expect a SWAT team on your doorstep tomorrow morning. (For all I know, this may be true for at least one of you.)

    I fed my inner psychopath today. After my visit to my depression group (where I behaved myself, and everyone else evaded my invitation to eat lunch with me) i walked to the reptile shop around the corner to my HMO. Open at 12 the door said. At 12:15 it was locked. I walked for 45 minutes to keep my 70 year old carcase alive for another day. I returned. A cute 22 year old chick was inside. I asked, "Should I be pissed because you are 45 minutes late, or should you be pissed because I will waste your time without buying anything?" She shrugged. I asked, "Do love reptiles or is this a just a job." "I love reptiles," she replied. "What are your favorite ones?" She named one (I forget). "It is roaming the shop ["free run" snake]. The other two are these two rock pythons. They work together. The male gets on top of the femlae so he can escape." [Aww, true love!].

    "I want to feed mice to my wife's hens," I said. "Chickens are small dinosaurs. Think tiny T-Rex's. My wife does not believe your mice are wholesome as they are not from our island."

    She said, "I feed them only wholesome organic mouse food."

    She packed four mice in a box. I put them out in the hen house so the chickens can work up their blood thirst. My wife said, "Only put one out." The hens are old and slow. The mice have a chance to escape into our woods. In about two minutes I will go out and release one ("only one" said my wife). Will I let out only one mouse and not all four. Will the mouse escape?

    I will be back with the boring story in a few minutes. I am feeding my inner (rather pathetic) sociopath. But this is real life. Or I am a poor liar.

  10. A few post back, the question of "can sociopaths sense a victim?" was asked - that got me thinking about a phenomenon I've experiences at varying rates over the years. Can/do victims sense a sociopath?

    I've had this experience where I meet someone and for all the world they seem to be having a negative visceral reaction to me. It's like they can see something in me that scares them - but they have only just met me. It almost seems like they would just as soon walk (run?) away (in fact a few people have done this...).

    One of my wife's friends seems to always keep something between her and me - and we're just talking about our kids! She is what RA might describe as a "lotus covered empath." A very sweet woman, which is completely unattractive to me - I like em feisty! *grin* But she has trouble looking at me, always keeps a meter or so of distance between us... It's a trip!

    In the song "Cat People" by David Bowie (lyrics, anyway, I believe...) the lyric that beautifully describes it is:

    "those who feel me near
    pull the blinds and change their minds."

    When I was young, I was little disturbed by the reaction - it was confusing. As I've gotten older, I've mostly found it puzzling. To see me, I'm not all that remarkable a sight - I look like most other "plant engineers"...

  11. "I look like most other "plant engineers"..." maybe that's it:)

    But about the first question, can sociopaths spot a victim? And if so how?

    1. I am glad that someone took a swing at the softball. 8)~

  12. haha HL I'm laughing right now...I have the same thing. Maybe it's the borderline intensity? People can tell I'm disturbed.

  13. The chicken mouse experiment went quite astay

  14. Bullying is now quite out of style. When I was young, I was quite inept socially. I was aware that I was the "next kid in line" to be bullied. It's kind of pathetic, but I always made sure there was at least one kid more inept than I was, and I helped bully that kid as protective camouflage. I guess that makes me a very dilute sociopath. Not very good, but at least my heart was in the wrong place, however feebly I was lapping up the blood.

    Later, I became a public school teacher. I could usually spot within a day or two of a new class, who was the child most likely to be bullied. The sociopaths (and I taught everything from preschool up though being a university instructor) could spot the victim as quickly as I could.

    Sociopaths can be fiendishly clever and patient. Once while I was teaching a high school class, I spotted a victim on the first day. The class as a whole was a kind and empathic tribe, so they collectively decided, "This victim is quite obnoxious, so let's just love him as much as we can." Well, that was fine and wonderful. Of the victim lovers, one young lady stood out as a leader and organizer of the "let's be kind" brigade. I thought very highly of her. (Call her "Marie.")

    I also taught a very idealistic half day alternative school class, not for adolescent troublemakers and punks, but for "free spirits" who just didn't fit in regular classes. The type of kid who might go to Evergreen, Reed, Oberlin (where my ultra empath daughter met her ultra empath wife), Swarthmore, Beloit, Bennington, Brown, Col of Atlantic, Colorado Deep Springs, Grinnel, Guilford, Kalamzoo, Lewis & Clar,, Skidmore, St. Johns, UC Berkeley (where I flunked out) Santa Cruz, Vassar, Prescott, Sarah Lawrence, NYU.

    I include this long boring list so you will be sure to send your sociopath child there (or enroll if you are just a young piranha) because they are sure to so rich in potential victims.

    Anyway, in this alternative alternative high school class, we screened the students very carefully just to keep both the sociopaths and ordinary adolescent fuckups out. Marie the sweet empath applied. I said to my fellow teachers, “She's a definite admit! She bright, intelligent, and very kind.” So in she went. Within a week we realized that for all of our careful screening half a dozen sociopaths (or other types of predators had completely fooled us and slipped into the group). [One of these little scum bags, a young lady named Mindi, the dumbest and laziest (and least attractive of the gang), murdered her husband a couple of years after graduating from high school. She was sentenced to live in prison. Things got interesting after Mindi was released from her life term. But that's another story.]

    Anyway, after we realized that we were stuck with a year of dealing with these little teenage sociopaths and similar predators, I revealed my victim neck to Marie. I said, “Marie. How could you? When you were in my class before, you behaved so well; you were so kind to that little victim.”

    Marie looked at me with contempt and bared her fangs. “You are so stupid. I really fooled you didn't I?”

    I am not sure if I am a sociopath or just a “wanna-be.” Whatever I am, I am not a very good one. Shit.

  15. I meant to say the chicken mouse experiment went quite astray. Unfortunately, I am an inept sociopath, senile, and dyslexic. Somebody put me out of my misery.

    1. I'll do the honors..

    2. Here's the rest of the story. Quite funny to me. Probably not to you. So why the fuck are you reading?

      Yesterday afternoon, I released one white mouse into the chicken run [pen]. The chickens are old and slow (as am I). They pecked ineffectually at the white mouse. My wife has made a mini-enclosure in the chicken run to protect some ferns. The mouse ran into the ferns. Three of the four hens lost interest; one ineffectually tried to get into the ferns.

      My wife said, "That's all the mice for tonight." I put the box with three remaining mice on our front porch. In the morning, the mice had chewed their way out of the box. My wife and i had a "your fault" screaming match while three mice ran around on our front porch.

      These are store mice, unfit for the wild. One had not chewed its way out, so I took it down to the hens. I released it. The pens pecked at it ineffectually. It ran out of the chicken run into the Iris bushes bordering it.

      "Stupid chickens," I said. Their feelings were seriously hurt. I will have to see if there is a chicken psychotherapist on our island to rebuild their self esteem.

      I went back to the front porch. One of the two escapees was nibbling some of my wife's chives. I grabbed it. (These are REALLY incompetent mice). I took it down to the chicken run and it ran into the ferns.

      I went back again to the front porch. The fourth mouse easily evaded my snatches. (I am a really incompetent human, not to mention psychopath.)

      I went down to the chicken run to do the other morning tasks. They had caught one of the mice! Apparently the mouse in the fern had run out to be caught, or the mice in the Iris had run back into be caught. This time the chickens pecked the mouse to death. My inner psychopath (or whatever nasty Dexter like creature inhabits my psyche crowed. (One of our hens, by the way, is a trans-gender rooster and periodically tries to crow, but not very well. Whatever turns her on.)

      At the moment, there is one dead, gray, half eaten mouse in the chicken run. Chickens do not concentrate very well, so they have not finished consuming it.

      My wife tried to help me catch the one remaining mouse (white) which is still running around on the front porch. My wife's retirement hobby is providing respite care for people with senility. She can hardly wait until I fall into her clutches. Unfortunately, my wife is rapidly catching up with me as far as sliding into senescence. If you can find your way to our island and to our house in the woods, you will find two senile adults (one male and one female) two senile hens (three female and one transgender) and one incompetent white mouse, which may have been consumed by the hawks, eagles, and barred owl that patrol our woods. I have a pellet rifle which I may club you to death with to defend myself. I've lost my pocket knife. If you read this all the way through, you have no one to blame but yourself. so you know what to do with yourself. It will be the perfect murder.


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